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EGK

Race Separation - Is It Biblical?

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Seeking:

 

I caught this line in your response and it sure feels like it was meant as an insult to me.

 

"You, like EGK have this us versus them mentality that cannot be supported biblically."

 

Anytime I wrote of the seperation of peoples in response to anything written in this forum I used biblical quotes. If not quoted from a biblical source then I used perfectly understandable examples out of life that anyone could relate to. I have used Matthew 10 :6, "Do not go among the gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." This is Jesus Christ himself explaining to to his twelve apostles their mission. God made man and woman not just an it, God has made different nations and people not EGK. It is not an us versus them mentality or else your address might be somewhere in south central LA, or do you have a bias against that. If anyone believes they are pure of a biased mentality than take a stroll down Central Ave some night.

 

EGK

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Not meant to insult, rather simply state a fact.

 

You, like some others within the molokan community, would bar the door not allowing "ne-nash" to participate or join a molokan church

 

You would not reach out to the surrounding community with the Gospel based upon differences in race

 

As to your passage in Matthew, it states for that particular mission to go not to the gentiles, but the Jews

 

That being the case and based upon your own personal bias, would you go to the Jews with the Gospel?

 

Would a non-russian Chrisitan Jew be welcomed to join and participate in a molokan church?

 

If not, why not...?

 

Anyway, you took one passage to support your own position for separation and frankly that is not what the Bible teaches

 

But what about other passages that would seem to contradict your position

 

Looking at John 4, Jesus and His disciples were right in the middle of "south central" as you would put it

 

He obviously was speaking to a Samaritan woman because the text states so.

 

Soon a Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, "Please give me a drink." (John 4:7 NLT)

 

As you may know she was "ne-nash" because she would have been a "half breed", yet Jesus was right in middle of an area that you, EGK, would consider "off limits" based upon racial biases you hold.

 

Jesus dealt with "ne-nash" taking to them the Gospel, why doesn't EGK?

 

Why aren't there Christian Hispanics, Asians or Blacks within the molokan church?

 

Please explain your position in light of this passage from Galatians

 

"28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians““you are one in Christ Jesus.

29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you." (Galatians 3:28-29 NLT)

 

As to your spurious argument about walking down through south central at night, what does that have to do with ANYTHING?

 

If you want to try and indicate that there is potential danger at night in South Central, why not open a molokan church open to whoever would attend in a perceived "safe" area like Beverly Hills?

 

Many of the molokan churches are in areas that were chosen by the people.

 

I would imagine that they chose areas that were relatively "safe", so why not open your doors to whoever would come from the surrounding "safe" areas?

 

By the way, God made differences among the people and scattered them because of their rebellion and not to keep one group "safe" from another

 

You are really going to have to try harder to make a case for your bigotry veiled in spiritual terms

 

"1 At one time the whole world spoke a single language and used the same words.

2 As the people migrated eastward, they found a plain in the land of Babylonia and settled there.

3 They began to talk about construction projects. "Come," they said, "let`s make great piles of burnt brick and collect natural asphalt to use as mortar.

4 Let`s build a great city with a tower that reaches to the skies““a monument to our greatness! This will bring us together and keep us from scattering all over the world."

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.

6 "Look!" he said. "If they can accomplish this when they have just begun to take advantage of their common language and political unity, just think of what they will do later. Nothing will be impossible for them!

7 Come, let`s go down and give them different languages. Then they won`t be able to understand each other."

8 In that way, the LORD scattered them all over the earth; and that ended the building of the city.

9 That is why the city was called Babel, because it was there that the LORD confused the people by giving them many languages, thus scattering them across the earth." (Genesis 11:1-9 NLT)

 

 

 

"4 He had to go through Samaria on the way.

5 Eventually he came to the Samaritan village of Sychar, near the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.

6 Jacob`s well was there; and Jesus, tired from the long walk, sat wearily beside the well about noontime.

7 Soon a Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, "Please give me a drink."

8 He was alone at the time because his disciples had gone into the village to buy some food.

9 The woman was surprised, for Jews refuse to have anything to do with Samaritans. She said to Jesus, "You are a Jew, and I am a Samaritan woman. Why are you asking me for a drink?"

10 Jesus replied, "If you only knew the gift God has for you and who I am, you would ask me, and I would give you living water."

11 "But sir, you don`t have a rope or a bucket," she said, "and this is a very deep well. Where would you get this living water?

12 And besides, are you greater than our ancestor Jacob who gave us this well? How can you offer better water than he and his sons and his cattle enjoyed?"

13 Jesus replied, "People soon become thirsty again after drinking this water.

14 But the water I give them takes away thirst altogether. It becomes a perpetual spring within them, giving them eternal life."

15 "Please, sir," the woman said, "give me some of that water! Then I`ll never be thirsty again, and I won`t have to come here to haul water."

16 "Go and get your husband," Jesus told her. 17 "I don`t have a husband," the woman replied. Jesus said, "You`re right! You don`t have a husband““ 18 for you have had five husbands, and you aren`t even married to the man you`re living with now." 19 "Sir," the woman said, "you must be a prophet. 20 So tell me, why is it that you Jews insist that Jerusalem is the only place of worship, while we Samaritans claim it is here at Mount Gerizim, where our ancestors worshiped?" 21 Jesus replied, "Believe me, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father here or in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans know so little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews. 23 But the time is coming and is already here when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for anyone who will worship him that way. 24 For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." 25 The woman said, "I know the Messiah will come““the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."" (John 4:4-25 NLT)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seeking:

 

I caught this line in your response and it sure feels like it was meant as an insult to me.

 

"You, like EGK have this us versus them mentality that cannot be supported biblically."

 

Anytime I wrote of the seperation of peoples in response to anything written in this forum I used biblical quotes. If not quoted from a biblical source then I used perfectly understandable examples out of life that anyone could relate to. I have used Matthew 10 :6, "Do not go among the gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." This is Jesus Christ himself explaining to to his twelve apostles their mission. God made man and woman not just an it, God has made different nations and people not EGK. It is not an us versus them mentality or else your address might be somewhere in south central LA, or do you have a bias against that. If anyone believes they are pure of a biased mentality than take a stroll down Central Ave some night.

 

EGK

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Guest Guest_fourvetta_*

When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the dog that barks is the one who got hit.

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EGK:

 

Here are a few more passages to throw a wrench into your racial biases

 

Looks like Jesus and the Apostles spent quite a bit of time with "ne-nash"

 

The passage in Luke 17 would place Jesus with "ne-nash" again in Samaria

 

"11 As Jesus continued on toward Jerusalem, he reached the border between Galilee and Samaria.

12 As he entered a village there, ten lepers stood at a distance,

13 crying out, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!"

14 He looked at them and said, "Go show yourselves to the priests." And as they went, their leprosy disappeared.

15 One of them, when he saw that he was healed, came back to Jesus, shouting, "Praise God, I`m healed!"

16 He fell face down on the ground at Jesus` feet, thanking him for what he had done. This man was a Samaritan.

17 Jesus asked, "Didn`t I heal ten men? Where are the other nine?

18 Does only this foreigner return to give glory to God?"

19 And Jesus said to the man, "Stand up and go. Your faith has made you well."" (Luke 17:11-19 NLT)

 

Peter & John, weren't they apostles...? Yet you would take a single passage out of Matthew 10 and make it say something that contextually IS NOT true

 

"After testifying and preaching the word of the Lord in Samaria, Peter and John returned to Jerusalem. And they stopped in many Samaritan villages along the way to preach the Good News to them, too." (Acts 8:25 NLT)

 

"Philip, for example, went to the city of Samaria and told the people there about the Messiah." (Acts 8:5 NLT)

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Guest Guest

Hi Seeking;

 

I am really glad you know me so well as to have judged me to be such a sinner. You know me well enough to think I am biased against all and have turned my back on my fellow man so completely. By judging me you must have grown up with me in Boyle Heights having a Mexican neighbor on one side and a Jewish one on the other. Also when I was young you must have known well the black boss I had who was better to me than any father could have been. You also remember the times back in Mexico how the squatters yelled "Russo, Russo go home", and threatened all our lives. How about the Mexican gangs that used to jump us to kick and beat the ###### out of us on our way home from school even though I grew up with them all. How about that Mexican illegal I got a job for and that close Philipino friend of mine. O how wretched a man I truly am!! I am sure life treated you much worse in Diamond Bar.

 

Also give me a list of names of all these people the Molokan Church have turned away, it must be quite extensive by now. If you want to discuss a subject, loose your own bias and write as an adult, none of us appreciate a hypocritical attitude and judgmental mentality.

 

EGK

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G' day:

 

You are implying that what I'm stating is not true

 

Ok...where's the fruit in the molokan church of this open door policy?

 

Have you invited any of your "ne-nash" friends to molokan church for a service and allowed them to join and participate?

 

Would that Black boss, Mexican or Jewish neighbor or Philipino friend be allowed to come and join in on a Sunday morning?

 

By the way, you seem to be avoiding the passages of Scripture I cited...

 

You asserted by citing Matthew 10:6 that there was a Biblical precedent to keep people separated by race

 

To try and keep this on track, any comments on Luke 17:11-19, Acts 8:25, Acts 8:5, John 4:4-25, Genesis 11:1-9?

 

I hope the passages I cited have illustrated Jesus' intent toward "ne-nash"

 

Thanks

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Guest observing

Seems like you want the Molokan church to open the doors to everyone. But, why don't you go to a Molokan Church? If what the Molokans have is wrong, why would you want them to open their doors to everyone? Why is their still Black Only colleges? Why on many applications it asks what Race you are?

 

 

G' day:

 

You are implying that what I'm stating is not true

 

Ok...where's the fruit in the molokan church of this open door policy?

 

Have you invited any of your "ne-nash" friends to molokan church for a service and allowed them to join and participate?

 

Would that Black boss, Mexican or Jewish neighbor or Philipino friend be allowed to come and join in on a Sunday morning?

 

By the way, you seem to be avoiding the passages of Scripture I cited...

 

You asserted by citing Matthew 10:6 that there was a Biblical precedent to keep people separated by race

 

To try and keep this on track, any comments on Luke 17:11-19, Acts 8:25, Acts 8:5, John 4:4-25, Genesis 11:1-9?

 

I hope the passages I cited have illustrated Jesus' intent toward "ne-nash"

 

Thanks

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There is a difference between attending a university and attending a church. Race should have no bearing on anyone's salvation. The Bible says to spread the Gospel. We are not supposed to hide His light. Jesus Christ's gift of salvation is universal. If that were not the case, we would all be in hot water.

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The question is why don't you open the doors seeing as many believe the molokans (excluding group 1 molokans - i have no beef with them other than their silence) are doctrinally right

 

Please cite chapter and verses from the Bible to support your closed door policy and the exclusion of all races (expect for russians - and a select few who "pass" for "nash" because of their skin color) to join and participate

 

As to the Black only colleges, that like EGK's "south central" reference are spurious arguements having nothing to do with the practice of segregation and endodgemy in molokan churches

 

Seems like you want the Molokan church to open the doors to everyone. But, why don't you go to a Molokan Church? If what the Molokans have is wrong, why would you want them to open their doors to everyone? Why is their still Black Only colleges? Why on many applications it asks what Race you are?

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The only Biblical Seperation is that of the Believer and Non-Believer.

Even then we pray for them to see the Truth.

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Another passage for EGK regarding his position on separation of races and Pauls calling by God to the "ne-nash"

 

"6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called [us] with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, [who] has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

11 to which I (Paul) was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

14 That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us." (2 Timothy 1:6-14 NKJV)

 

So I guess the question is that if it was appropriate for Jesus, Paul and the Apostles to go to the "ne-nash", why don't group 2 & 3 molokans do the same?

 

Paul said to imitate him as he did as Jesus did

 

"So I ask you to follow my example and do as I do." (1 Corinthians 4:16 NLT)

"And you should follow my example, just as I follow Christ`s." (1 Corinthians 11:1 NLT)

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Us versus Them?

 

So far I have seen no list of those turned away?

Here is a list :

AME Church, Lily of the Valley AME, St Mary Armenian Church, Asemblea De Dios,Central De Adoracion De Dios, El Aposento Alto, Iglesia Emmanuel, La Nueva Jerusalem, Latin American Assembly of God, Primera Iglesia Bautista, El Buen Pastor, Templo Cristiana Bautista, Miguel Pro Church, Shiloh Church, Compton Central Spanish Church,Salon Del Reina, Templo Calvario, Iglesia Nazareno, Korean Presbyterian Church, Lao Buddhist Temple, Iglesia Centro De Los Angeles, Iglesia Adventista Del Septimo Dia.

So far what I have seen in this is that nobody has been deprived of the word of God and that people of different nationalities feel more at ease with those that speak the same language and come from the same culture.

 

EGK

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What about the passages I cited regarding Jesus and the Apostles dealing with "ne-nash"?

 

Your assertion to make Matthew 10 a proof text for racial separation doesn't work in the context of Scripture

 

Now you add to your "basis" a list of "churches"

 

What I find telling is that you would point to supposed "chrsitian churches" that have some real doctrinal problems as compared to the Bible

 

Even more telling is you would point to a non-Christian "church" such as a buddhist temple to take you cues from

 

Does anyone else see a problem with that?

 

Us versus Them?

 

So far I have seen no list of those turned away?

Here is a list :

AME Church, Lily of the Valley AME, St Mary Armenian Church, Asemblea De Dios,Central De Adoracion De Dios, El Aposento Alto, Iglesia Emmanuel, La Nueva Jerusalem, Latin American Assembly of God, Primera Iglesia Bautista, El Buen Pastor, Templo Cristiana Bautista, Miguel Pro Church, Shiloh Church, Compton Central Spanish Church,Salon Del Reina, Templo Calvario, Iglesia Nazareno, Korean Presbyterian Church, Lao Buddhist Temple, Iglesia Centro De Los Angeles, Iglesia Adventista Del Septimo Dia.

So far what I have seen in this is that nobody has been deprived of the word of God and that people of different nationalities feel more at ease with those that speak the same language and come from the same culture.

 

EGK

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Seeking:

 

If you check the posts it was you who brought out the race card, not I. The title of this discussion was created by you, not I. I answered to the "Us versus them mentality", you labeled me with. You started the dance my friend, not I. I am waiting for the list of people refused entry into the Molokan Church, but you seem to forget about this request? You skirt around the issue so much it is hard to keep up with you. The list of churches whether christian or not is their to show to all readers that people of all nations, creeds and colors have created churches of their own and for their own. Open any phone book and you can see this. More to come!

 

EGK

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The "us versus them" based upon race and ethnicity is ultimately what this all boils down to ...

 

You can try and veil it however you wish in "practical" or "spiritual" terms, but it doesn't wash if you are willing to be honest with yourself

 

Read the recent molokan where it was suggested that people be more careful with "ne-nash" and not to invite them to church

 

That mindset permeates through group 2 & 3 molokans

 

"1 Let love be your highest goal, but also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives, especially the gift of prophecy.

2 For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won`t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious.

3 But one who prophesies is helping others grow in the Lord, encouraging and comforting them.

4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally in the Lord, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

5 I wish you all had the gift of speaking in tongues, but even more I wish you were all able to prophesy. For prophecy is a greater and more useful gift than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church can get some good out of it." (1 Corinthians 14:1-5 NLT)

 

Note verse 1a "Let love be your highest goal"

 

That word for love is agape (ag-ah`-pay) which is the strongest word for love that can be found in the Bible... It's not like other words for love that would mean physical or brotherly love. Agape is a type of of love that is selfless and is a fruit of His Spirit only manifested through the life of the Christian, as it is an attribute of God, and cannot be self willed into anyones life

 

"22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love (agape), joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness, self“control. Against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23 NKJV)

 

Is your "love" for traditions and the status quo greater than the love that should be manifested toward those who are lost and dying without Jesus regardless of ethnicity?

 

That should be the motivating love which is the same type that God express toward us, while yet we were sinnners, he died and rose again for us

 

""For God so loved (agaped) the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 NKJV)

 

"6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.

8 But God demonstrates His own love (agape) toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." (Romans 5:6-9 NKJV)

 

Continuing...

 

I've been able to visit a couple of the churches you listed that are doctrinally centrist as compared to Scripture

 

I was welcomed and I could have joined regardless of my skin color

 

They offered traditional language AND English services

 

Language or ethnicity was not used as a method to disqualify or exclude people from participation or membership

 

The benchmark according to scripture differentiates between only 2 groups, Christians and non-Christians

 

"27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have been made like him.

28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians““you are one in Christ Jesus.

29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you." (Galatians 3:27-29 NLT)

 

As to your "list" request, that's a dodge and you know it

 

I had asked you to explain your position on the closed door policy and you to this point have been unable to do so using a Scripture

 

So now this "list" is the all important topic. Please...

 

As I stated before, if you assert there isn't any racial bias and no one is turned away, where is the fruit of that?

 

Where are the English services, the outreach to the surrounding community or the Black, Hispanic, Asian Christian molokans?

 

Please expain your "closed door policy" in the light of Scripture

 

Seeking:

 

If you check the posts it was you who brought out the race card, not I. The title of this discussion was created by you, not I. I answered to the "Us versus them mentality", you labeled me with. You started the dance my friend, not I. I am waiting for the list of people refused entry into the Molokan Church, but you seem to forget about this request? You skirt around the issue so much it is hard to keep up with you. The list of churches whether christian or not is their to show to all readers that people of all nations, creeds and colors have created churches of their own and for their own. Open any phone book and you can see this. More to come!

 

EGK

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Guest perplexed

You need a list of people not welcomed into Molokan Churches?

 

Invite one of your ne-nash friends or co-workers on a Sunday morning and cruise over to 1 or 2 of the churches in the Central Valley and try and participate or fellowship with the congregation. What sort of reception will you receive - warm or icy? I am not so sure they would even let you in the door. Don't forget all of the talking that will be done about you and your family that will happen afterwards. Oy Hospodee!, look at that - they tried to bring a pahany ne-nash to church.

 

It is a known fact that in some churches, people have been prohibited from going na-crugh / for prayer because a pedigree may not be perfect, or they or their parents are divorced. Equal opportunity prayer? I think not.

 

UMCA - that stands for United Molokan "Christian" Association. The UMCA is a building used for wedding showers, activities, and the like - a place where Christians can enjoy fellowship. The UMCA in the Central Valley has a well known policy that if you hire out the property for a wedding shower and have any ne-nash or relatives that are married out attend - you WILL lose your security deposit. That is a real open door policy.

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because a pedigree may not be perfect,

 

My pedigree:

I have sinned

My Pop has sinned

My Grandfather has sinned

My Greatgrandfather has sinned............

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My God forgives us all.

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I was "born into" the Molokan culture... yet because I willingly served in the U.S. military, I was told by an elder that I would be refused membership to one of the more "conservative" Molokan churches... Do you think it would have been worse if I would have added that my father was поÑтоÑнный - postoyanni?

 

As far as race separation goes... the first scriptures that come to mind are:

Matthew 7:1 - Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Matthew 5:43-50 - "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

Why judge? It's pointless... God will take care of it. Throughout countless quotes in the bible, God says that vengeance is His, and that He will crush our enemies, etc. So regardless of race or sins, I am not to judge. Besides, I am not sin-free....

 

Romans 3:21-24 - But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

So though I have sinned, God has justified me by His grace by the blood of Jesus. And that Mexican down the street? He told me that he once was a theif, but now loves God and tries his best to live a life according to God... Did you hear the one about the theif on the cross... ?

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