seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2009 Seemed appropriate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2009 The United States was formed on the basis of a military conquest Why would anyone come to a country that was formed in such a way? Why would anyone who advocates pacifism observe a holiday commemorating such an event? It would seem to me those who would not obey the laws of the governing authorities, as established by God, (Romans 13) by not choosing to defend the country that ensures their freedoms should not be taking the day off, bar-b-queing or have anything to do with the holiday Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Huh? Report post Posted July 5, 2009 And you served your tour of duty when? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2009 I registered for duty and, by the grace of God, was not deployed I didn't hide behind psuedo-religious excuses Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steadfast 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2009 If......... the Holy Spirit did send the Jumper Leapers to America wouldn't that have indicated the condonation of speaking in english and the support of America's military and it's national holidays or was the Holy Spirit wrong, or was Klubnikin's coming to America prophesy really the work of the Holiest of Spirits? New Israelites, look through your wallet and important papers, do you see anything typed or written in Russian, drivers license, Social Security card, medical, dental or proof of driver insurance? That should be a clue ya think! BTW, Klubnikin's written America prophesy to date, has never been found. The Armenians say they don't have it but the Molokans do! And the Molokan elders can't seem to find it....... Regarding military service, the M's are still stuck on that old, Thou shalt not kill, when the Bible manuscript reads, Thou shalt do no murder....... New Israelites, read the Bible manuscripts not the translations......... What's the difference between kill and murder? Plenty!.... The New Israelites are following the teachings of their unscholarly elders! Molokanism is not Christianity....SF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Huh? Report post Posted July 6, 2009 I registered for duty and, by the grace of God, was not deployed I didn't hide behind psuedo-religious excuses That's interesting, i didn't know that there's been a draft since Vietnam... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2009 The Selective Service System wants you to know that the requirement to register for the military draft did not go away with the end of the Vietnam War. Under the law, virtually all male U.S. citizens, and male aliens living in the U.S., who are ages 18 through 25, are required to register with Selective Service. Since there is no draft currently in effect, and men are not being classified for service, disabled men, clergymen, and men who believe themselves to be conscientiously opposed to war must also register. Penalties for Failure to Register for the Draft Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for: Student Financial Aid - including Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans. U.S. Citizenship - if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday. Federal Job Training - The Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service. Federal Jobs - men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2009 I know of a few who failed federal background checks because of this "moral" dilemma yet you found them at all the russian parties how convenient Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Huh? Report post Posted July 6, 2009 If you felt so strongly about this, why didn't you volunteer instead of just registering for the draft? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2009 You know this really isn't about the topic... I did what was required by the law as established by those the Lord has put in charge The real question is did you do at least that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Huh? Report post Posted July 6, 2009 You know this really isn't about the topic... I did what was required by the law as established by those the Lord has put in charge The real question is did you do at least that? Yes, i also did what was required by law. But you said, It would seem to me those who would not obey the laws of the governing authorities, as established by God, (Romans 13) by not choosing to defend the country that ensures their freedoms should not be taking the day off, bar-b-queing or have anything to do with the holiday How is registering as a c/o not fulfilling/obeying the law? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2009 It would appear you very well did the proper thing... My original point to the entire thread was to question why a group who advocates pacifism would observe a holiday to commemorate a successful military conquest culminating in the forming of a nation Did you observe the 4th? If so, why? You know this really isn't about the topic... I did what was required by the law as established by those the Lord has put in charge The real question is did you do at least that? Yes, i also did what was required by law. But you said, It would seem to me those who would not obey the laws of the governing authorities, as established by God, (Romans 13) by not choosing to defend the country that ensures their freedoms should not be taking the day off, bar-b-queing or have anything to do with the holiday How is registering as a c/o not fulfilling/obeying the law? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Huh? Report post Posted July 6, 2009 Well, being that it fell on a saturday this year, it was kind of hard not to. But it would seem that you are painting with quite a large brush. I see the point that you are trying to make, but as with all things, you can't lump everyone together. I like things that go BOOM! and am pretty amazed at the level of pyrotechnics that we see these days. I like to bbq, wether it be on the 4th, Christmas, New Years, Columbus day, Arbor day, MLK day, i think you get the point. Do i observe the 4th as it probably should be observed? No. But how many actually do? If you see all the beer adds that would answer that question. Do i pray for those that God has placed in authority over me? Yes. As i have heard other Molokans do also. Do i pray for the Men and Women that serve our country and keep us safe? Yes. As i have heard othe Molokans do. How did you observe the 4th this year? btw, the La Habra High fireworks show was the BOMB this year! lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Huh? Report post Posted July 7, 2009 Question, how many nations in Biblical times were formed by millitary conquest? And how many of those conquests were inspired by, led by, and blessed by God? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 7, 2009 Actually it worked out great because the 3rd was the "official" day so a 3 day weekend always is welcomed Based upon personal experience, it seems that many have "dodged" it using the religious angle Things that go boom are awesome I have some friends who are "pros" doing real shows You've not lived until you have been within the "secure area" of a show The colors and sound are great, but the concussive force is what makes the "total package" Glad that you are praying for those, ordained by God, to defend the country Well, being that it fell on a saturday this year, it was kind of hard not to. But it would seem that you are painting with quite a large brush. I see the point that you are trying to make, but as with all things, you can't lump everyone together. I like things that go BOOM! and am pretty amazed at the level of pyrotechnics that we see these days. I like to bbq, wether it be on the 4th, Christmas, New Years, Columbus day, Arbor day, MLK day, i think you get the point. Do i observe the 4th as it probably should be observed? No. But how many actually do? If you see all the beer adds that would answer that question. Do i pray for those that God has placed in authority over me? Yes. As i have heard other Molokans do also. Do i pray for the Men and Women that serve our country and keep us safe? Yes. As i have heard othe Molokans do. How did you observe the 4th this year? btw, the La Habra High fireworks show was the BOMB this year! lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 4, 2009 Not sure about the form of the question It's like asking "how many nations in Biblical times had chicken dinners as a result of millitary conquest?" You can form a question to limit or direct answers It's called a leading question which is not used in the course of a dialog How about how many military conquests were inspired by, led by, and blessed by God? Question, how many nations in Biblical times were formed by millitary conquest? And how many of those conquests were inspired by, led by, and blessed by God? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2010 Can anybody say that the fourth of July is a pagan holiday? Or, just maybe, God wanted a place on planet earth called the U.S.A. Is it unreasonable to thank God for this? Has anybody done research into the Christian foundation this country is founded on? It is very inspiring... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2010 My other question on the subject never got an answer Why would pacifists come to a country that was founded through military conquest? Maybe I'll add it to that other thread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Report post Posted July 3, 2010 Seemed appropriate Seeking, nothing you do seems appropriate. Do you support Independence Day? Do you go out and watch the fireworks somwhere...do you watch them from your home? Then you are supporting war. OMG. Grow up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speaker Report post Posted July 4, 2010 This nation may have been founded on Christian principles but is deteriorating into a pagan nation. People would say that God has blessed this nation. Well the Babylonian empire was great in its time, can we say it was through God's blessing? We cannot call America a Christian nation and continue to kill unborn and partially born babies. We cannot call America a Christian nation and allow homosexuals to be pastors. Same way we cannot call a soldier a Christian who takes up a rifle and kills. name='KevinPolyaNazaroff' date='Jul 2 2010, 09:48 PM' post='64208' Has anybody done research into the Christian foundation this country is founded on? It is very inspiring... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoodDay 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2010 If this nations freedom is mentioned in the Bible to be celebrated then it is of God- If not then?? Can anybody say that the fourth of July is a pagan holiday? Or, just maybe, God wanted a place on planet earth called the U.S.A. Is it unreasonable to thank God for this? Has anybody done research into the Christian foundation this country is founded on? It is very inspiring... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoodDay 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2010 Maybe small peasant towns back then didn't know all the facts? They didn't have tecnology like we have now-I don't know what they knew and what difference does that make? My other question on the subject never got an answer Why would pacifists come to a country that was founded through military conquest? Maybe I'll add it to that other thread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoodDay 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2010 Amen!, What counts, is what is going on today and right now. They can try to prove the foundation and how it was at one time and it really doesn't matter any more. Just as forefathers that we mention on here. They were chistians and that was then and this is now This nation may have been founded on Christian principles but is deteriorating into a pagan nation. People would say that God has blessed this nation. Well the Babylonian empire was great in its time, can we say it was through God's blessing? We cannot call America a Christian nation and continue to kill unborn and partially born babies. We cannot call America a Christian nation and allow homosexuals to be pastors. Same way we cannot call a soldier a Christian who takes up a rifle and kills. name='KevinPolyaNazaroff' date='Jul 2 2010, 09:48 PM' post='64208' Has anybody done research into the Christian foundation this country is founded on? It is very inspiring... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest 2 Report post Posted July 4, 2010 If this nations freedom is mentioned in the Bible to be celebrated then it is of God- If not then?? Why do molokans celebrte the Jewish holidays, like Feast of tabernacles, Feast of trumpets, Feast of unlevened bread just to name a few, these holiays are not for Christians, God intended them for the jews to celebrate leaving egypt. (1) Your posts are mostly made up of misconstrued half truths, (2) why can't you forgive the Calvary Chapel for the things you mentioned, did you show them scripture wheret they were wrong and you are right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2010 What counts, is what is going on today and right now. Agreed. They can try to prove the foundation and how it was at one time and it really doesn't matter any more. Not completely agreed. According to scripture, there is some importance on the history of a nation. 12 Will Your wonders be made known in the darkness? And Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? Ps 88:12 NASB Our nations past does not affect our salvation. But is does affect our way of life. Every nation on earth has a flavor, a type of culture. It can cultivate an atmosphere of support for bible preaching and teaching. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2010 This nation may have been founded on Christian principles but is deteriorating into a pagan nation. People would say that God has blessed this nation. Well the Babylonian empire was great in its time, can we say it was through God's blessing? We cannot call America a Christian nation and continue to kill unborn and partially born babies. We cannot call America a Christian nation and allow homosexuals to be pastors. Same way we cannot call a soldier a Christian who takes up a rifle and kills. name='KevinPolyaNazaroff' date='Jul 2 2010, 09:48 PM' post='64208' Has anybody done research into the Christian foundation this country is founded on? It is very inspiring... It is a very scary thing to see the direction this country is headed. To be so quickly leaving the foundation of biblical Christianity is a path to destruction. There is a big difference between Babylon and America. Babylon was created to punish the back-sliden Israelites. And then God wiped out Babylon, for waring against His back-slidden chosen people. America was not founded on paganism. America was founded on God and the bible. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EGK 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2010 If this nations freedom is mentioned in the Bible to be celebrated then it is of God- If not then?? Why do molokans celebrte the Jewish holidays, like Feast of tabernacles, Feast of trumpets, Feast of unlevened bread just to name a few, these holiays are not for Christians, God intended them for the jews to celebrate leaving egypt. (1) Your posts are mostly made up of misconstrued half truths, (2) why can't you forgive the Calvary Chapel for the things you mentioned, did you show them scripture wheret they were wrong and you are right? The Holidays of the Bible; "Anthropologists studying remote tribes routinely describe their feast days, for to show the people's common values. What would stand out to an anthropologist studying the United States? Undoubtedly he would notice that our celebration of Christmas, Thanksgiving, and the Fourth of July emphasize family, food, and gifts---the more the better. What about the Israelites? Leviticus describes five feasts, all focusing on GOD. Each was marked by special Sacrifices to God and a sacred assembly in the Tent of Meeting where God had "pitched his tent". RATHER THAN GIVING GIFTS TO EACH OTHER, THE ISRAELITES GAVE GIFTS TO GOD. Sometimes they rejoiced: During the Feast of Tabernacles everyone camped out to "rejoice before the Lord for a solid week (23:40). On other occasions, such as the Day of Attonement, they were sober and solemn (Chapter 16, 23:26-32). But always the orientation was God directed. Nobody worked on Israelite feast days, but their"days off" had a different motive than ours. An Israelite farmer never got a paid holiday. In fact, a holiday could cost him---it might fall on a day perfect for harvesting. But God took priority over work. The weekly Sabbath day reinforced the same idea. You had to stop working to worship. God mattered more than wealth. This fundamental belief showed itself even more in the Sabbath year and in the Year of Jubilee (Chapter 25). Every seventh year, people did not farm at all. They lived off whatever the land produced by itself, and dedicated themselves to God. This would be like our closing all businesses and factories for a year. After 49 years--seven sabbath years---the Jubilee came. This time, people went for two years straight without planting. All land bought or sold during the previous 49 years went back to its original family ownership. Since the land had been originally been equally distributed, this meant that no family would ever become either totally destitute or overwhelmingly rich. Any Israelites who had sold themselves as slaves would also be freed in that year. Hard work and the resulting abundance were never scorned in Israel. But prosperity always came ultimately from God, not from hard work or clever dealings alone. These feasts and Sabbaths, set aside as special days, helped people remember and praise the God who had given them so much. So far as we know, no Year of Jubilee was ever actually practiced. Some of the feasts were forgotten for long perriods of time. But such failure is not surprising. (After all, think of what we have done to the non-biblical Holy days of Christmas and Easter!) The feast days described in Leviticus give us a good idea of what God wanted Israel to be. Sadly, reality did not often match the ideal." NIV Study Bible In Leviticus 23:31, it states; "Ye shall do no manner of work: IT SHAKLL BE A STATUTE FOR EVER THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS IN ALL YOUR DWELLINGS'. KJV What is there about the words "for ever" that you do not understand? Where in the bible does it state it is for the "Jews" only"? Did not Jesus Christ our Lord also celebrate these Holidays? Are we not His? What kind of Holidays do you revere and celebrate, those of receiving and gluttony or those dedicated to the glory of God? What is your orientation toward? Can you show scripture to back up your assertions about God's Holidays? I do not think so!!! EGK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2010 Still EGK denies the veracity of Scripture yet will want to deny or affirm it when it suits him... Nonsense Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Report post Posted July 5, 2010 Still EGK denies the veracity of Scripture yet will want to deny or affirm it when it suits him... Nonsense Seeking we have another crier here who doesn't mean what they say. Well, I leave you now my "Friend", You can have this forum all to yourself now!! EGK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EGK 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2010 Still EGK denies the veracity of Scripture yet will want to deny or affirm it when it suits him... Nonsense Seeking; As always you and your type attack the messenger but can never seem to put two sentances together to attack the message when you are wrong. It is really great to now see that others have come to see your message for what it is, your message, and not the one Jesus Christ has given us to spread through out the world. I find it stranger yet that what I wrote and quoted from came out of an NIV Study Bible and yet still you deny it's message. Take a stab at the questions I presented both you and your "Friend" Guest-Guest, who some how sounds very much like "Steadfast" might both be able to try and learn a little. Please, if you two cannot answer and discuss a subject like an adult with objective criticism, then do not answer at all, it wastes my time and others also. EGK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevepiv 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2010 Thanks EGK for the history and posts!! Brother Nick S came across this website a few months back and this Dr. Brown has answered this question and many others with the Wisdom God has given him. Article on Should Christians Observe the Biblical Jewish Holidays Here is the article for those who don't want to open the link: It is increasingly common for Gentile Christians to celebrate the biblical, Jewish holidays, and there are many commendable reasons for doing so. Here are a few: (1) The biblical holy days are infused with spiritual and prophetic significance. Passover corresponds to Yeshua's death (1 Corinthians 5:7-8), Firstfruits to His resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:20), and the Festival of Weeks (Shavu'ot, or Pentecost) corresponds to the giving of the Spirit (Acts 2:1-4). Trumpets points to the Lord's return with the sound of the trumpet (see Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 11:15), the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) points to Israel's final cleansing (Zechariah 13:1, which follows from Zechariah 12:10 ff.), and Tabernacles (Sukkot) points to the final ingathering of the nations (see Zechariah 14:16-19; see also Revelation 7:9 and Leviticus 23:40, for palm branches and Tabernacles). (2) The biblical holy days have great historic significance. Although the Messianic significance of the biblical holy days is certainly of greater significance to Christians than is the historical significance, the origin and meaning of these holy days in Israel's history is also important. So, if it is okay to celebrate Thanksgiving and July 4th in America and to remember the events connected with those days, how can it be wrong to remember Israel's deliverance from Egypt in the Passover? When connecting this season to the death and resurrection of Yeshua, it can be very powerful. (3) Celebrating the biblical holy days is a good way to teach about God's acts of redemption. Paul freely made reference to the holy days when writing to the Corinthians, making a spiritual application of Passover in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 and possibly referencing Firstfruits directly in 1 Corinthians 15:20; notice also how Luke casually made reference to Yom Kippur (the Fast) in Acts 27:9, assuming his readers would understand. Yet many Christians today do not understand these references, being so divorced from the Jewish roots of the faith. Celebration of the holy days-or at the least, annual teaching about them-is a good way to educate a whole congregation, from the young to the old. (4) Celebrating the biblical holy days is a good way to recover the Jewish roots of the Christian faith. It is absolutely clear that everything that God does is summed up in His Son Jesus, that our Messiah and King is to have centrality in every way, and that our fullness is found in Him rather than in celebrating holy days or observing special seasons. That being said, the Church has become so Gentilized, so detached from its biblical, Jewish origins, that an appreciation for the biblical, Jewish calendar-the calendar of Yeshua and the apostles-is certainly helpful. To give one example, think of the positive benefits of calling churches to fast and pray for the salvation of Jewish people worldwide on the Day of Atonement, a day when millions of Jews are fasting and asking God to forgive their sins. What's wrong with doing that? Having said all this, it is important to emphasize that many believers do get caught up in unhealthy practices associated with the celebration of the feasts, and there are some direct warnings in the New Testament. In light of this, it is important to remember that: (1) Celebration of the biblical feasts is not a means for a Gentile believer to "become Jewish." Jews and Gentiles have equal standing in the Lord, and Jews are not called to become Gentiles nor are Gentiles called to become Jews. (2) Jesus must be central in everything we do (this cannot be overemphasized.) (3) Celebration of the feasts is not commanded in the New Testament and should not be practiced in a binding or legalistic way. This was addressed by Paul when expressing his concern about the Galatians: "You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you" (Galatians 4:10-11). What was the problem? While commentators point out different nuances of the text, it seems clear that the Galatians thought that they were required to observe "special days and months and seasons and years," and, worse still, they thought that in doing so, they would increase their spiritual standing in the Lord. Neither of these is true! Paul addressed a related phenomenon in Colossians 2:16-17 (NLT): "So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality." (When Paul called on the Corinthians to "keep the Passover" in 1 Corinthians 5, he was clearly speaking of this in spiritual terms.) So, let everything we do as believers find its fullness in Yeshua, let no celebration or observance be done in a binding way, let no believers judge one other based on their observance or non-observance, let no one feel "unspiritual" if they get nothing out of the celebration of the feasts-and if the Lord puts it in your heart to celebrate the feasts, then be blessed in that celebration. As for Jewish believers in Jesus, it is my view that similar principles apply, since we are not required by God to follow the biblical calendar as new covenant believers. (I'm sure some of you differ with me here, so feel free and email me with your differences, bearing in mind that in the course of a short article like this, I cannot get into lengthy theological and exegetical discussions to back up every point I make.) That being said, many Messianic Jews do feel a calling to follow the biblical calendar for the purposes of covenantal solidarity with the Jewish community, preservation of their heritage, Jewish outreach, and family life cycle, among other things. I would only urge my fellow Messianic Jews to reflect on the previous paragraphs, regardless of their particular convictions, since it is God's will that "in everything [Yeshua] might be preeminent" (Col 1:18, ESV). Therefore whatever we do must ultimately glorify Him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BibleandHistoryStudent Report post Posted July 5, 2010 Can anybody say that the fourth of July is a pagan holiday? Or, just maybe, God wanted a place on planet earth called the U.S.A. Is it unreasonable to thank God for this? Has anybody done research into the Christian foundation this country is founded on? It is very inspiring... Yes, it is inspiring. The rally call of the Revolutionary War in independence from Britain was "No taxation without representation." Read the Declaration of Independence in its entirety. It is a list of grievances against the King of England, political, military, and economic in nature, and nothing is mentioned about religion. The purpose was to dissolve "the political bands" with Britain, using "Laws of Nature and Nature's God" as their justification. This is an allusion to the great architect of the universe, the god of Masonry and Deists. It was "The Opinions of Mankind" that motivated them to pursue this course. The final line of the Declaration states divine providence as their reliance, not the God of the Bible and certainly not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Of course the Declaration did not apply to slaves, who were not emancipated until about 90 years later. Religion is not mentioned until the First Amendment, for the state not to interfere in religion by respecting one above another, and not to prohibit its practice. And this would apply to any religion, or no religion. The state itself was originally designed to be secular, or Deist at the most. The use of fireworks is to recall the phrase in the national anthem, "The bombs bursting in air." The purpose is to indelibly inscribe patriotism into the mind of every American, and patriotism is a type of political racism. This is not Christian foundation. It is political, economic, military and secular. And if you want to justify using InGodWeTrust on money and OneNationUnderGod in the pledge of allegiance, this is sacriligious to begin with, and what or whose God are we talking about? When and why these statements were installed was a political issue during the Cold War against Soviet Union to increase patriotism in America, the purpose of the pledge of allegiance to the flag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2010 My point is your credibility stinks regardless of the message especially since you deny the deity of Jesus and the veracity of Scripture As to the OT holidays, you are free to observe them, but they are not mandatory and ultimately they all point to "Real Thing" Christ You deny the Real Thing so you are left to wander in the shadows Here again is more than a "couple of sentences" to show you do not know what you are talking about 16 ¶ So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new–moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself. 18 Don't let anyone condemn you by insisting on self–denial. And don't let anyone say you must worship angels, even though they say they have had visions about this. These people claim to be so humble, but their sinful minds have made them proud. 19 But they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For we are joined together in his body by his strong sinews, and we grow only as we get our nourishment and strength from God. 20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the evil powers of this world. So why do you keep on following rules of the world, such as, 21 "Don't handle, don't eat, don't touch." 22 Such rules are mere human teaching about things that are gone as soon as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, humility, and severe bodily discipline. But they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person's evil thoughts and desires. (Colossians 2:16-23) Still EGK denies the veracity of Scripture yet will want to deny or affirm it when it suits him... Nonsense Seeking; As always you and your type attack the messenger but can never seem to put two sentances together to attack the message when you are wrong. It is really great to now see that others have come to see your message for what it is, your message, and not the one Jesus Christ has given us to spread through out the world. I find it stranger yet that what I wrote and quoted from came out of an NIV Study Bible and yet still you deny it's message. Take a stab at the questions I presented both you and your "Friend" Guest-Guest, who some how sounds very much like "Steadfast" might both be able to try and learn a little. Please, if you two cannot answer and discuss a subject like an adult with objective criticism, then do not answer at all, it wastes my time and others also. EGK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2010 The state itself was originally designed to be secular, or Deist at the most. Your statement is completely false. Do you have any proof to back it up? On the contrary... John Witherspoon, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, said this - There is no salvation in any other than in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I shall now conclude my discourse by preaching this Savior to all who hear me, and entreating you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ; for “there is no salvation in any other” If you are not rec¬onciled to God through Jesus Christ – if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness – you must forever perish. Charles Thomson, who was " ONE OF ONLY TWO FOUNDERS TO SIGN THE INITIAL DRAFT OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE APPROVED BY CONGRESS", said - I am a Christian. I believe only in the Scriptures, and in Jesus Christ my Savior. There are many more quotes like this. Only in ignorance can we say that America was and is a secular country. And the "Deist" movement was minute, and the claims that the founders were "deist", is disputable. I have already posted some of them earlier. And lastly, just go the the Library of Congress website to find what the evidence states in regards to the Christian foundations of America. Here is a portion of it - Many of the British North American colonies that eventually formed the United States of America were settled in the seventeenth century by men and women, who, in the face of European persecution, refused to compromise passionately held religious convictions and fled Europe. The New England colonies, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Maryland were conceived and established "as plantations of religion." Some settlers who arrived in these areas came for secular motives--"to catch fish" as one New Englander put it--but the great majority left Europe to worship God in the way they believed to be correct. They enthusiastically supported the efforts of their leaders to create "a city on a hill" or a "holy experiment," whose success would prove that God's plan for his churches could be successfully realized in the American wilderness. Even colonies like Virginia, which were planned as commercial ventures, were led by entrepreneurs who considered themselves "militant Protestants" and who worked diligently to promote the prosperity of the church. Library of Congress Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevepiv 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2010 Still EGK denies the veracity of Scripture yet will want to deny or affirm it when it suits him... Nonsense Seeking; As always you and your type attack the messenger but can never seem to put two sentances together to attack the message when you are wrong. It is really great to now see that others have come to see your message for what it is, your message, and not the one Jesus Christ has given us to spread through out the world. I find it stranger yet that what I wrote and quoted from came out of an NIV Study Bible and yet still you deny it's message. Take a stab at the questions I presented both you and your "Friend" Guest-Guest, who some how sounds very much like "Steadfast" might both be able to try and learn a little. Please, if you two cannot answer and discuss a subject like an adult with objective criticism, then do not answer at all, it wastes my time and others also. EGK Hi EGK, I hope you continue to post and are guarded from the personal attacks. You do bring up great references and points and I have NO DOUBT that you Love the Lord thy God with All your heart, mind, soul and stregnth and that you love your neighbor as yourself. Take care and one day I hope to meet you. Steve Pivovaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HistoryandBibleStudent Report post Posted July 6, 2010 Christians of the early centuries had to made a decision between Caesar and Christ in the form of a sacrifice or oath to Caesar or refusing. The same applies today but can be reflected in the Pledge of Alligiance. Reciting the Pledge is making the decision of allegiance to Caesar and denying Christ. (from Wikipedia): The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an oath of loyalty to the national flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892. The Pledge has been modified four times since then, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954. The Pledge is predominantly sworn by children in public schools in response to state laws requiring the Pledge to be offered. Congressional sessions open with the swearing of the Pledge, as do government meetings at local levels, meetings held by the Knights of Columbus, Royal Rangers, Boy Scouts of America, Fraternal Order of Eagles, Freemasons and their concordant bodies, other organizations, and many sporting events. The current version of the Pledge of Allegiance reads: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. According to the United States Flag Code, the Pledge "should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted July 7, 2010 Christians of the early centuries had to made a decision between Caesar and Christ in the form of a sacrifice or oath to Caesar or refusing. The same applies today but can be reflected in the Pledge of Alligiance. Reciting the Pledge is making the decision of allegiance to Caesar and denying Christ. (from Wikipedia): The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an oath of loyalty to the national flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892. The Pledge has been modified four times since then, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954. The Pledge is predominantly sworn by children in public schools in response to state laws requiring the Pledge to be offered. Congressional sessions open with the swearing of the Pledge, as do government meetings at local levels, meetings held by the Knights of Columbus, Royal Rangers, Boy Scouts of America, Fraternal Order of Eagles, Freemasons and their concordant bodies, other organizations, and many sporting events. The current version of the Pledge of Allegiance reads: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. According to the United States Flag Code, the Pledge "should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute". I am not sure where you are going with this... What does this have to do with Independence Day? But....I do agree with you about the pledge of allegiance. The pledge was created out of greed and socialist agenda. I would not recommend anybody to take this "pledge", until they at least know whom and from where it came from. Here is an interesting article about the history of the Pledge of Allegiance. Kevin Nazaroff I Pledge Allegiance To The Flag By Israel Wayne “Place your right hand over your heart and repeat the Pledge of Allegiance.” Every morning in government and private school classrooms across America, students are led in the following mantra: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” Very few of us know the history of the Pledge, its author and the original purposes behind the Pledge. Let’s explore some of these issues together. The Author of the Pledge The author of the Pledge, Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), was a Baptist minister, a Freemason and a socialist activist. (Socialism is usually defined as “government ownership and control of the means –including land, labor and capital – of production”.) If this appears incongruent, apparently Francis’ congregation thought so as well, for they put him out of his Boston, MA parish in 1891 because of his socialistic sermons. Despite Francis’ early ties with the northern Baptists, his theological views were far from Biblical. He refused to believe in the virgin birth, the resurrection or the ascension of Christ, and somehow erroneously insisted that Jesus Christ was a socialist, like himself. In 1889, Francis co-founded, under the influence of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, the Society of Christian Socialists. Edward Bellamy (whose father was also a Baptist minister) is attributed with influencing the worldview behind Francis’ political views. Edward wrote novels including, Looking Backward 2000-1887 (1888), a critique of American capitalism and its sequel Equality (1897). Edward depicted the year 2000 as being the date that competitive capitalism would have been stamped out in favor of what he called a “cooperative commonwealth.” The theories in the book inspired many “Bellamy Clubs,” which led to the formation of a Nationalist Party, that advocated the federalization of public services. In 1891, Edward founded the “New Nation” in Boston, an organization that for some time promoted his leftist views. Edward had other interests, such as psychic phenomena, which he explored in some of his writings, but for the most part, he limited his novels to socialist concerns. American educator, John Dewey, “(P)roclaimed Bellamy’s Looking Backward second only to Karl Marx’s Das Kapital as the most influential book of modern times.”1 According to former New York State “Teacher of the Year,” John Taylor Gatto: “(T)he society Bellamy describes is a totally organized society, all means of production are in the hands of State parent-surrogates…Society in Bellamy’s ideal future has eliminated the reality of democracy, citizens are answerable to commands of industrial officers, little room remains for self-initiative. The State regulates all public activities, owns the means of production, individuals are transformed into a unit directed by bureaucrats.” 2 One biographer says of Edward, “(I)t should be pointed out that though Bellamy is usually spoken of as a “Utopian Socialist,” he was nothing of the kind. His system was a pure state capitalism, a complete nationalization of all industry which actually has much in common with the totalitarian state, now spoken of as Facism.”3 The History of the Pledge Inspired by such lofty fascist notions, it seems that Francis was determined to influence the young (as did John Dewey and other socialists of the day), to cause them to have complete unquestioned allegiance to the civil government as the protector and provider of the people. After leaving his position as paid pastor, he sought employment and mentoring through a staff position offered by ***** Ford, the owner of the popular magazine, The Youth’s Companion. Ford later funded the liberal and controversial “Ford Hall Forum” in downtown Boston, MA, which attracted 1,400 in only its fifth meeting in 1908 (they turned away 500 more) to hear a lecture entitled, “Socialism As I See It.” By 1928 the Baptists in Boston had decried the forum as “anti-Christian” and “anti-American.” The idea for the Pledge was given as an assignment to Francis Bellamy and Ford’s nephew, James B. Upham. The first version of the Pledge was published in the Sept. 8th, 1892 issue of The Youth’s Companion (TYC) magazine, commemorating the 400th anniversary of Columbus’ discovery of America. Why The Need For A Pledge? There seems to be several major motivations for introducing to youth a national oath or vow of allegiance. First, were Francis’ personal radical views of the government as the cure for all social ills, and the need for unreserved trust and dependence on the State. Second, according to Dr. John W. Baer, the Pledge of Allegiance could be considered by the advertising industry to be “the greatest piece of copy-writing seen in the United States in the last hundred years.” Francis Bellamy spent the latter years of his life as an advertising salesman for various magazines and considered writing ad copy to be his specialty. There was a definite financial motive behind the selling of the Pledge; it was the selling of American flags. Despite all of the rhetoric about socialism, a free press like The Youth’s Companion (which has the constitutional right to promote socialism if it desires), has to raise funds in a very capitalistic manner. When the assignment to write a flag pledge was given to Bellamy and Upham, the former was given the task of writing the piece and promoting it to schools, while the latter was instructed to use the Pledge as a publicity stunt to sell American flags, the newspaper’s latest fund-raising endeavor. By 1892 the publication had already sold flags to approximately 26,000 schools, but Ford was convinced that they had not yet exhausted the market. Ford commissioned his staff to sell a flag to every school in America. The task was to encourage the NEA to tack on an official “pledge to the flag” for the celebration of the then upcoming National Public School Celebration for Columbus Day, thereby ensuring nearly universal participation in flag ceremonies (and thus, flag sales). Third, Upham masterfully played upon the interest of school leaders in increasing patriotism in the schools. W.T. Harris, the commissioner of education, worked with the publication to secure TYC’s management of the World’s Youth Congress at the 1892 Columbia Exposition in Chicago, and convinced the school superintendents in attendance to adopt a series of resolutions recommending the project to all superintendents, teachers and newspapers. Francis was chosen as chairman of the NEA’s executive committee for the celebration. The NEA was intent on ensuring that the Columbus Day celebration was not merely a celebration of the discovery of America, but that the theme also included a recognition of the government schools as the glue which held the American experiment together. Theodore Roosevelt, another Freemason and then member of the United States Civil Service Commission, said, “The Common School and flag stand together as the arch-typical of American civilization. The Common School is the leading form in which the principles of equality and fraternity take shape, while the Flag represents not only those principles of equality, fraternity and liberty (author’s note: this trilogy was the theme of the French Revolution), but also the great pulsing nation with all its hopes, and all its past, and all its moral power. So it is eminently fitting that the Common School and the Flag should stand together on Columbus Day.” (Baer) Francis Bellamy in his address for Columbus Day stated, “We assemble here that we, too, may exalt the free school that embodies the American principle of universal enlightenment and equality…Washington and Jefferson recognized that the education of citizens is not the prerogative of the church or of other private interest; that while religious training belongs to the church, and while technical and higher culture may be given by private institutions – the training of citizens in the common knowledge and the common duties of citizenship belongs irrevocably to the State.” (Baer) Very few private school administrators or homeschoolers are aware of how “eminently” linked the Pledge to the Flag is with the government school system. An interesting effect of this “promotion of patriotism” was that most schools that used to have students memorize and recite sections of the U.S. Constitution, The Declaration of Independence or some other founding document from America’s inception, did away with teaching students what American law says, and focused only on oaths and vows. Now when nearly all students pledge allegiance to the Flag, they think the phrase “wall of separation of church and state” is a stated tenet in our Constitution on which the (Democracy) stands, with tolerance and diversity for all. The Pledge has served as a much more emotional and subjective replacement for understanding the objective laws on which America was built. The Pledge fits into a “slogan” or “sound-bite” society that can only retain what the Pledge means “to me” when I say it, rather than what the original framers of our documents intended. No wonder many judges believe in “evolving documents” and “international law precedent,” rather than approaching the Constitution from an “originalist” or “strict constructionist” viewpoint. The federal judiciary (including the U.S. Supreme Court) has become an activist oligarchy (rule by an elite, imperious minority) that totally undermines the Rule of Law and the republic of representative government our founders established. With the swing of a gavel they have often overwritten the will of the people as expressed through her appointed officials, and have imposed their personal preferences on the masses. These are the same courts that want to remove morality from American life, remove life itself when it is not wanted or convenient, and remove any acknowledgment of God in the public sphere, all the while promising, “a republic for which it stands, with liberty and justice for all.” Fourth, was the “need” to revive interest in a supposedly under-funded government school. (Of course one must wonder if the cry of “under-funding” has simply been going on since government school inception.) Some skeptics of mandatory government education (please keep in mind that Horace Mann’s compulsory attendance law had only been in effect for forty years in Massachusetts and much less in other places) claimed that State-run education was inherently socialistic in nature. In response to these views, President Benjamin Harrison said, “The system of universal education is in our age the most prominent and salutary feature of the spirit of enlightenment, and it is peculiarly appropriate that the schools be made by the people the center of the day’s demonstration. Let the National Flag float over every school house in the country, and the exercises of such as shall impress upon our youth the patriotic duties of American citizenship.” (Baer) Early on in American education, the notion was presented that while parents can teach some things (like potty training or brushing teeth), the government was the only agency capable of teaching people to be good citizens, and thus, “for the good of all society”, government schools were an indispensable part of the national economic duty. Fifth, was President Harrison’s desire to further the effort to bring all of the southern citizens into conformity with the goals and agenda of the new federalized Union following the Civil War. Abraham Lincoln in 1863 had recommended an “Oath of Allegiance” for southerners to declare their loyalty to the new United States. Other such pledges and oaths (directed to those living in the formerly Confederate states) developed in following years, but the older citizens of the South resented most of them. Sixth, immigration was also on the rise during these years, and government officials felt that a pledge to the flag would serve to create an ethos of loyalty among the new citizens. If new immigrants from foreign lands had felt hope of finally being accepted into a nation that looked past skin color and offered “liberty and justice for all,” they would have undoubtedly been disappointed by Francis and other Pledge promoters views on non-white citizens. Not only did the NEA not offer integration of blacks into the “public” schools until 1966, Francis himself said the following, “There are races, more or less akin to our own (author’s note: he means Anglo-Saxon), whom we may admit freely, and get nothing but advantage from the infusion of their wholesome blood. But there are other races which we cannot assimilate without a lowering of our racial standard, which should be as sacred to us as the sanctity of our homes.”4 One Nation Under God? Many people are not aware that the original Pledge was devoid of any religious content. Bellamy’s version read: “I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” Notably absent is the line about America being “under God.” The original intent of this Pledge of Allegiance was to give homage to a secular republic. In a June 3, 1940 U.S. Supreme Court decision, Minersville School District v. Gobitis, 310 US 586, the court decided that a local school board could expel students who refused to recite the Pledge. On June 22, 1942 during the patriotic fervor of WWII, congress included the Pledge in the United States Flag Code (Title 36). In 1943, one year after receiving this official sanction, the U.S. Supreme Court, in the West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 US 624, decision (a case driven by religious organizations that felt that pledging allegiance to a flag was a violation of Exodus 20), ruled that school children would not be forced to recite the Pledge in school, a ruling that still stands to this day. The final change to the Pledge came on June 14, 1954, President Eisenhower approved the addition of the words, “under God” to the Pledge. As an explanation, he stated, “In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America’s heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country’s most powerful resource in peace and war.” That same year, David Bellamy (Francis’ son), sent a message to Congress informing them that his father would not have approved of that addition. Francis’ granddaughter and great-granddaughter have also reportedly insisted that Francis would have resented this addition.6 (Baer) I Pledge Allegiance To A Godless-State? Fast forward to the present and we find ourselves in a culture that wants, ironically, to roll back this pledge to the original intent of Francis Bellamy, the author. Modern-day leftists desire to teach children to pledge their faithfulness and loyalty to a God-less State. This is something that must never happen. A lawsuit brought by an atheist parent in Sacramento, CA against the words, “under God” in the Pledge was upheld in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals case, Newdow vs. U.S. Congress on February 28th, 2003. The claim made by the atheist parent is that Christians are imposing their values on non-Christians by forcing them to acknowledge God (even though no child is forced by law to recite the Pledge). The U.S. Solicitor General, Theodore Olsen, and Elk Grove School District Attorney, Terence J. Cassidy, defended the teacher-led recitation by insisting that the phrase, “under God” was merely “descriptive” and “ceremonial” rather than a “religious invocation.” In other words, you can use the words “under God” as long as you don’t mean them. Sort of like the Ten Commandments cases where you can display God’s Word publicly, as long as you don’t believe it is God’s Word. It can only be considered an historical document in the same category as the Gettysburg Address or a speech by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. The Newdow case was refused by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2004, but in March 2010 was overruled by it’s own 9th Circuit Court, who finally decided that since no student could be forced by law to say the Pledge, it was not unconstitutional for the schools to keep the words, “Under God,” in the Pledge. Patriotism or Statism? Patriotism is simply defined by Noah Webster as, “Love of one’s country.” The question must be asked, however, “What exactly is your country?” Do you mean the geographical land on which you live (i.e. Papua New Guinea or Greenland)? Do you mean your fellow countrymen (i.e. your neighbors and others in proximity to you)? Do you mean a philosophical ideal or the laws that your nation represents (i.e. freedom of speech, press and religion, etc.)? Do you mean the government that enforces the ideals and the values of your nation (i.e. the monarchy, the parliament, the congress, the police, the military, etc.)? What then, are people pledging to be loyal to when they make a vow to their flag? What is encompassed in that pledge? What if there is a disconnect between the ideals of a nation and the implementation of those ideals? Another consideration is what would you do if you were to move to or were born in Germany, Sudan or Abu Dabi. Would you pledge allegiance to any land where you were born or are a current citizen? You would want to be a loyal citizen, wouldn’t you? Biblically speaking, it would be hard to imagine making a pledge of loyalty to any part of this geographical earth. That would seem odd. We may cultivate and tend it, but not make oaths to it. We are certainly instructed to love our neighbors, but there is no Biblical instruction to vow our devotion to them (our husband or wife, yes, but not our neighbors). Again, the Scripture never tells us to pledge allegiance to a set of ideals or philosophies, except of course to God Himself, but He is not, of course, merely a set of ideals. Romans 13 instructs us to be subject unto the higher powers, but history certainly doesn’t record the early Christians pledging allegiance to Caesar. Why? Because Caesar had set himself up as a god to be worshipped instead of the true and living God. They paid taxes and they showed honor when honor was due, but they did not pledge to do whatever Caesar wanted them to do. Making Vows and Pledges In fact, we are discouraged in Scripture from making any vow or pledge: Jesus said, “But I say unto you, Swear not at all…But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.” (Matthew 5:34 & 37) “But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.” (James 5:12) May I submit to you that those who wish to remove the words, “Under God” from the Pledge are explicit in their desire to eradicate any notion of the civil government’s obligation to a Higher Authority? They want to keep the oath, but they want you to be loyal to them, not to God. That act of autonomy, along with other recent public proclamations (such as the removal of Ten Commandments monuments from public courthouses), reveals the worldview or political philosophy by which most of our nation’s leaders now stand; “one nation, out from under God.” I can assure you that a nation like that will not have liberty or justice for all. The issue is not merely one of vanishing religious symbols or the privatization of faith, although it certainly is both. It is a statement about the belief of our government officials that there is no Supreme Being to whom they are accountable. That, my friends, is frightening. How many Terri Schiavo cases do we have to see, hate-crime laws passed or pre-born babies murdered to be convinced that there is not, actively, “liberty and justice for all”? How many pro-homosexual “marriage” laws must be passed before we concede that this is not a nation under submission and obedience to Almighty God? Government becomes perverted with the weight of its own power and its citizens must not give unquestioned allegiance to any ruler or State. (Remember Hitler, Stalin and Saddam Hussein?) “Both Upham and Bellamy agreed the new words for a salute should be more than just a Salute, it should be a vow of loyalty or allegiance.” (Baer) We must not encourage our children to trust a government that is disobedient to God’s Word. Yes, we render to Caesar what is his, but only what is his. We do not owe Caesar all that we are – that belongs to God alone. Author, Mark Rushdoony, writes in an essay on Christianity vs. Statism, “The early church went through a succession of persecutions because it did not represent a legal religion. What many do not realize is that such a legal status was easily given to the church, but it was repeatedly refused. Many individual martyrs were given the option of escaping a death sentence if they would submit to the Roman state by a simple declaration. All the early Christians had to do was proclaim, “Caesar is Lord,” to replace their allegiance to God with the emperor as a divinity. Most refused, recognizing that to regard Caesar as first lord was to denigrate the Lordship of Jesus Christ. The issue was, “Who is Lord?”7 Dr. Henry Morris has stated, “Patriotism is a noble attitude if one’s country and its leaders are seeking to follow God’s will. However, when such national patriotism is exploited to the point that the State – especially personified in its leaders (whether inherent, appointed, elected, or by conquest) – seeks to usurp the place or prerogatives of God, then it becomes idolatrous and blashphemous.”8 Luke 4:5-8 (KJV) And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. [6] And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. [7] If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. [8] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. I Pledge Allegiance To Diversity On March 11, 2005, the We Are Family Foundation (a non-profit organization with direct ties to many pro-homosexual groups) distributed a video to 61,000 government and private elementary schools for what was called, “We Are Family Day.” The video featured many popular cartoon characters singing and dancing to the popular disco hit, “We Are Family.” It seemed harmless enough (as if any such massive campaign could be innocent!), but as you might suspect, there was a sinister motive. Government schooling has always, from its inception, had the intent of creating a certain type of citizen. Schools are becoming increasingly confident in their ability to shape the beliefs and values of the young. Educational expert, Samuel Blumenfeld, asserts, “(I)mported from Europe was the idea of Hegelian statism, the idea that the State was God on earth. It was this idea that emboldened educators to believe that it was the State’s duty to mold its children – its “most precious natural resource” – into obedient servants of the state.”8 Many children, who have for generations become used to pledging their allegiance and unquestioned loyalty to the government, were suddenly given a new pledge to which they were to swear their allegiance. I’m referring to the so-called, “Tolerance Pledge” which states in part, “To help keep diversity a wellspring of strength and make America a better place for all, I pledge to have respect for people whose abilities, beliefs, culture, race, sexual orientation or other characteristics are different from my own.” (Emphasis added.) This is not a question of loving one’s neighbor, or of being kind to those who disagree with you. This is an all-out attempt to create a citizenry that is in lock-step with what the leftist ideologues of our day envision; a “utopia” where anyone who lives a sinful lifestyle is praised and anyone with a deeply-held Christian faith is marginalized and ridiculed. The new pledge ends by promising: “To fulfill my pledge, I _______, will examine my own biases and work to overcome them, set a positive example for my family and friends, work for tolerance in my own community, speak out against hate and injustice. We share a world. For all our differences, we share one world. To be tolerant is to welcome the differences and delight in the sharing.” (This pledge originally appeared on the We Are Family Foundation’s website, but was removed at one point to hide their agenda.) The real heart of the matter is the struggle over which side gets to define the terms. The leftists say that you are hateful if you lovingly spank your children. According to Proverbs 13:24, refusing to physically discipline your children is a hate-crime. According to leftists, you are committing a hate crime if you tell your neighbor that he is wrong to be living a homosexual lifestyle and that he needs to repent. The Bible says in James 5:20 that if you do this you are being loving. The above pledge may sound good until you realize what they mean by the words they use. Dr. James Dobson said regarding this pledge, “Every individual is entitled to respect and human dignity, including those with whom we disagree strongly. The problem is not with acceptance or kindness, certainly. But kids should not be taught that homosexuality is just another ‘lifestyle,’ or that it is morally equivalent to heterosexuality. Scripture teaches that all overtly sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage is sinful and harmful. Children should not be taught otherwise by their teachers, and certainly not if their parents are unaware of the instruction.”8 It would seem to me that the best way to be aware of the instruction your children receive is to teach them yourself. Increasingly schools are emphasizing making vows and pledges on numerous issues from “Earth Day” pledges where students swear to protect the environment (for example): “I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag of our Mother Planet, the Earth, and to the Environment in which we live, one Global Home, Indivisible, with unspoiled water, unpolluted air, and protected natural resources for All Life!” There are tolerance and diversity pledges like the ones discussed above, and the ever increasing push to swear allegiance to being a citizen of “one world” in the new global society (remember Michael G. New who was court marshaled because he refused to swear an oath of allegiance to the United Nations while serving in the U.S. Military?). Many workplaces are also encouraging pledges to diversity (which include pledges to respect “Sexual Preference”): http://www.udel.edu/PR/Messenger/03/2/ASembracing.html Even universities are getting in on the action: “I understand that Villanova University is a community comprised of many different types of people. In addition to the many different cultural groups we belong to, such as race, sexual orientation, physical ability, and gender, we are all coming to the University with many different kinds of experiences that have formed who we are as individuals. Fully understand that I wish to be treated with respect for who I am as a person. I herby profess that I will make every effort to accept and respect people who may be different than me.” Conclusion The peer pressure to go along with these promises is huge, especially when all of the other classmates are doing it. Most young impressionable students lack the ability to think critically and work through these issues alone. Parents need to discuss with their children what they should give their unquestioned loyalty to, and what they should not. Use every opportunity while you still have influence in your children’s lives to shape their values, because there is a world out there, like the young Hebrew men in Babylon (see ***** 3) faced, that wants them to bow down to any idol made by man. Make sure they have the right foundation now so they too can say, “ We are not careful to answer thee in this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. [18] But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.” (***** 3:16-18) 1. John Taylor Gatto, The ########### History of American Education, (New York, NY, The Odysseus Group, Inc., 2001), p. 128. 2. ibid. 3. Stanley J. Kunitz & Howard Haycraft, American Authors 1600-1900: A Biographical Dictionary of American Literature; (New York, NY: The H.W. Wilson Company, 1939), p. 70 4. Dr. John W. Baer, The Pledge of Allegiance: A Centennial History 1892-1992, by, (10 Taney Avenue, Annapolis, MD 21401), 1992. 5. ibid. 6. ibid. 7. Rev. Mark R. Rushdoony, Why We Confront Statism, an essay in Faith For All Of Life, (Vallecito, CA. June/July 2004.) 8. Dr. Henry Morris, Christian Education for the Real World, (El Cajon, CA: Master Books, 1977), p.6 9. Samuel Blumenfled, The History of Public Education, an essay printed in PHS #30, 1999. Copyright 1993-2004 Home Life, Inc. 10. Family News From Dr. James Dobson, February 2006, Focus on the Family, Colorado Spring, CO 80995. Israel Wayne is an author and conference speaker. http://www.IsraelWayne.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BibleandHistoryStudent Report post Posted July 7, 2010 Christians of the early centuries had to made a decision between Caesar and Christ in the form of a sacrifice or oath to Caesar or refusing. The same applies today but can be reflected in the Pledge of Alligiance. Reciting the Pledge is making the decision of allegiance to Caesar and denying Christ. (from Wikipedia): The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an oath of loyalty to the national flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892. The Pledge has been modified four times since then, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954. The Pledge is predominantly sworn by children in public schools in response to state laws requiring the Pledge to be offered. Congressional sessions open with the swearing of the Pledge, as do government meetings at local levels, meetings held by the Knights of Columbus, Royal Rangers, Boy Scouts of America, Fraternal Order of Eagles, Freemasons and their concordant bodies, other organizations, and many sporting events. The current version of the Pledge of Allegiance reads: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I am not sure where you are going with this... What does this have to do with Independence Day? But....I do agree with you about the pledge of allegiance. The pledge was created out of greed and socialist agenda. I would not recommend anybody to take this "pledge", until they at least know whom and from where it came from. So what is the difference between the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag and the republic for which it stands and the following pledge to support and defend the Constitution of the USA? Sorry, but they both have the same intent and accomplish the same: allegiance to Caesar and denial of Christ. I, (NAME), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EGK 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2010 My point is your credibility stinks regardless of the message especially since you deny the deity of Jesus and the veracity of Scripture As to the OT holidays, you are free to observe them, but they are not mandatory and ultimately they all point to "Real Thing" Christ You deny the Real Thing so you are left to wander in the shadows Here again is more than a "couple of sentences" to show you do not know what you are talking about 16 ¶ So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new–moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself. 18 Don't let anyone condemn you by insisting on self–denial. And don't let anyone say you must worship angels, even though they say they have had visions about this. These people claim to be so humble, but their sinful minds have made them proud. 19 But they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For we are joined together in his body by his strong sinews, and we grow only as we get our nourishment and strength from God. 20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the evil powers of this world. So why do you keep on following rules of the world, such as, 21 "Don't handle, don't eat, don't touch." 22 Such rules are mere human teaching about things that are gone as soon as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, humility, and severe bodily discipline. But they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person's evil thoughts and desires. (Colossians 2:16-23) Seeking; Your topic is, "Do Molokans observe Independence Day? 1. This is not a Molokan church holiday or a biblical holiday so the Molokan church does not observe it. 2. Your question was asked only to create a disputation, there by creating a disputable matter here. 3. I am a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore as to my veracity and beliefs I answer to Him and to Him only. I thank you for the sentences and let me give you a few in return. "Accept him whose faith is weak, WITHOUT PASSING JUDGMENT ON DISPUTABLE MATTERS. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE'S SERVANT? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make his stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meats, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord." Romans 14: 1-8 "What is weak faith? Paull is speaking about immature faith that has not yet developed the muscle it needs to stand against external pressures. For example, if a person who once worshipped idols were to become a Christian, he might understand perfectly well that Christ saved him through faith and that idols have no real power. Still, because of his past associations, he might be shaken if knowingly he ate meat that had been used as part of a pagan ritual. If a person who once worshipped God on the required Jewish holy days were to become a Christian, he might well know that Christ saved him through faith, not through keeping of the law. Still, when the feast days came, he might feel empty and unfaithful if he didn't dedicate those days to God. Paul responds to both weak brothers in love. Both are acting according to their consciences, but their honest scruples do not need to be made into rules for the church. Certainly some issues are central to the faith and worth fighting for---but many are based on individual differences and should not be legislated. Our principle should be, IN ESSENTIALS UNITY; IN NON ESSENTIALS LIBERTY; IN EVERYTHING LOVE. NIV STUDY BIBLE NOTES EGK (FEEL THE LOVE) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 8, 2010 Thank you very much for not reading the thread especially the thread title as started by me "Do Molokans Observe Independence Day?, If So, Why..." Yes it was directed to molokans to inquire of those who may adopt a pacifist stance Essentially I was asking those who would maintain a pacifist stance do you observe Independence Day and why As to your credibility, you have denied the Deity of Jesus and the veracity of Scripture therefore calling into your question the ability rightly divide the Word of God I want to make sure everyone else know your views on these core Christian tenets so as to avoid any attempts on your part to deceive them Now it is possible your views have recently changed to affirm the Deity of Jesus and the veracity of Scripture to which I would welcome hearing about that Again seems pretty straight forward Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Report post Posted July 9, 2010 Scripture says "Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him." (Proverbs 30:5) "The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever." (Psalm 119:160 NKJV) "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." (John 17:17 NKJV) Is EGK your "brother" in Christ? Is he still "right on"? He might be a nice man or an engaging individual, but does he view Jesus and The Bible as you do? Based upon his own words, he is not my Brother in Christ As to the original thread topic your statement "It is not a Molokan Holiday so the question does not flow" is an opinion not a fact It's not an Amish or Mennonite holiday yet I could ask the same question of any group that dogmatically advocates pacifism and/or makes it a tenet of faith It points to the hypocrisy of convenience You go on about being a pacifist yet I would imagine you still pay taxes, use public services, drive on roads and expect assistance if you dial 911 all provided by the government via your tax dollars God tells us very clearly who are His, and how to identify the nenash. After enough dialogue the nenash will eventually expose themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 10, 2010 Sweet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 10, 2010 Scary thoughts coming from….."Believers" As to the deity of Jesus, I do not know. Scripture does not unequivocally state it, Jesus never stated it, and the general church took over 300 years to finally come to a consensus, one way or the other to state it. .John 10:30 Jesus said; "I and My Father are one." You can use what ever scripture you want to justify these wars and you are wrong. After this debate and some other things, I can boldly say it's a Salvational issue. Salvation by avoiding war, that would be salvation by your works and rejecting Christ's offer of Salvation through His Grace? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 10, 2010 You are still missing the point I do not like war as I have stated many times before The issue has to do with making pacifism a tenet of Christianity I do not agree with that aspect of your argument Perhaps we'll never come to agreement on that The one thing I do want to get straight is you calling EGK your "brother" Your brother in what? Since he overtly denies the Deity of Jesus and calls into question the accuracy of Scripture, how is he your "brother"? BTW, the hover car is totally George Jetson! Actually Seeking, I drive a vehicle made of of recycled paper that runs off air. It hovers about 4 inches off the ground so I dont have to use public roads. I never heard of 911 until you just mentioned it but I have heard of 411 if thats the same thing? According to your un-Scriptural logic and my driving on the street and taxes being with held makes me a murdering Un-Christian soldier then you finnaly have a point! Thank God that Jesus Christ died on the Cross and The Holy Spirit dwells in Gods Children to equip us with His Word to do His Work. With out the convictions of The Holy Spirit you will allways see war from a Non-Spiritual veiw point. Thats why Americas church is allmost all physical. You are all fighting physical Battles and not Spirtual Battles. How can that be? Many churches say the Outward manifestation of The Holy Spirit is a time that is gone and past. They are right in a sense because that are not of The Holy Spirit. Does The Holy Spirit support war? Is not The Holy Spirit God? You still serving Only one and a half sides of a triangle x 10% Apostle Paul. Them that support war are equal to them that are in war. It's not even so much the act, but rather the intent and mental thoughts that God will forgive if you and them repent. I can even go as so far as to say you are more of a murderer than a person who joins in pure ingnorance and brainwashed and with the support of his church member and pastors. You should know better and they can come to know better. You use a lot of login Seeking. By you saying, my Brother EGK is wrong about Scripture, because of your on- going never ending points you brought up would mean that since you are saying he is not your Brother means that anyone in the world that knows war is wrong is My Brother and EGK's Brother? I will gladly accept that You say EGK is right on. He says As to the deity of Jesus, I do not know AND He says regarding Scripture I do not deny veracity, I deny inerrancy. He also states that I am ...hung up on two points These two "hang ups" (Who Jesus Is and the Inerrancy of Scripture) are the core tenets of Biblical Christianity http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/veracity Main Entry: ve·rac·i·ty Pronunciation: \və-ˈra-sə-tē\Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural ve·rac·i·tiesDate: circa 1623 1 : devotion to the truth : truthfulness 2 : power of conveying or perceiving truth 3 : conformity with truth or fact : accuracy http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inerrant Main Entry: in·er·rant Pronunciation: \-ənt\Function: adjective Etymology: Latin inerrant-, inerrans, from in- + errant-, errans, present participle of errare to errDate: 1837 : free from error Scripture says "Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him." (Proverbs 30:5) "The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever." (Psalm 119:160 NKJV) "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." (John 17:17 NKJV) Is EGK your "brother" in Christ? Is he still "right on"? He might be a nice man or an engaging individual, but does he view Jesus and The Bible as you do? Based upon his own words, he is not my Brother in Christ As to the original thread topic your statement "It is not a Molokan Holiday so the question does not flow" is an opinion not a fact It's not an Amish or Mennonite holiday yet I could ask the same question of any group that dogmatically advocates pacifism and/or makes it a tenet of faith It points to the hypocrisy of convenience You go on about being a pacifist yet I would imagine you still pay taxes, use public services, drive on roads and expect assistance if you dial 911 all provided by the government via your tax dollars What do you mean by "observing' it? EGK is right on. It is not a Molokan Holiday so the question does not flow. I am sure some do and I am sure some don't. Just as some are for war and some are not. One can pretty much take any group of people and find some that do, and some that don't, for most things. Do christians in general observe it? I would say all of them recognize it. But do they all send that day praising people and land? I would say no. Seeking; I appreciate your reply, it was very candid and to the point. You seem to be hung up on two points. 1. The deity of Jesus 2. The veracity of scripture as I see it. Here is my position as of now, it may change. I count on the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ to guide me. 1, As to the deity of Jesus, I do not know. Scripture does not unequivocally state it, Jesus never stated it, and the general church took over 300 years to finally come to a consensus, one way or the other to state it. A good argument can be given for both perspectives. 2. I do not deny veracity, I deny inerrancy. Accept this or reject this, I can not answer any further as of now due to time restraints on me. Egk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoodDay 0 Report post Posted July 11, 2010 Sweet! Lol!!! This really made me laugh :-) Mine is black and it's a 2007- This one looks like a 2006. There are no headlights :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoodDay 0 Report post Posted July 11, 2010 Scary thoughts coming from….."Believers" As to the deity of Jesus, I do not know. Scripture does not unequivocally state it, Jesus never stated it, and the general church took over 300 years to finally come to a consensus, one way or the other to state it. .John 10:30 Jesus said; "I and My Father are one." You can use what ever scripture you want to justify these wars and you are wrong. After this debate and some other things, I can boldly say it's a Salvational issue. Salvation by avoiding war, that would be salvation by your works and rejecting Christ's offer of Salvation through His Grace? Not true, Yes,Salvation is Free By the Grace of God, (Ephesians 2) The works than that were before the world that He had planned for us than proceed in our lives. These are Good works that do not save us but come from our obediance once saved with The Holy Spirit guides us. A Christian still cannot force Good works on his own, but they come from The Holy Spirit guiding. War is not a Good work. Continued sin through voluntary action is not a good work and actually worse than a person trying to please God by doing a Good work to earn Salvation. Purposlly living a life of sin shows an obvious live with no salvation. These wars are part ofr a sinners voluntary choice thus purposly going against God. Therefore a person choosing to live in sin, cannot and does not lead to Salvation. A huge a part of Salvation is repentance. It is not a free gift that God will give and then a person can leave in on a table still packaged with wrapping and a bow. It must be opened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoodDay 0 Report post Posted July 11, 2010 These topics are not personal topics to attach to other members regardless of how you believe or do not believe as they do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 11, 2010 These topics are not personal topics to attach to other members regardless of how you believe or do not believe as they do.That means you say what you do not believe. War is not a Good work. War is ordained by God, how can that not be a good work, in effect you are saying God is evil? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 11, 2010 Works are evidence of Salvation not a method to secure or maintain Salvation (James 2:14) In your view would a Bible based Christian who joined the military "lose" their Salvation? 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, 29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father's hand. 30 The Father and I are one." (John 10:27-30) It would appear God chooses and it is a "done deal" 29 ¶ For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30) justified: 1344 δικαιοω dikaioo dik-ah-yo'-o AV-justify 37, be freed 1, be righteous 1, justifier 1; 40 1) to render righteous or such he ought to be This is not a case of man's self-righteousness based upon works "earning" his way Scripture clearly states this IS NOT the case 4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:4-10) While we were yet sinners AND as we were called AND no one can change that Scary thoughts coming from….."Believers" As to the deity of Jesus, I do not know. Scripture does not unequivocally state it, Jesus never stated it, and the general church took over 300 years to finally come to a consensus, one way or the other to state it. .John 10:30 Jesus said; "I and My Father are one." You can use what ever scripture you want to justify these wars and you are wrong. After this debate and some other things, I can boldly say it's a Salvational issue. Salvation by avoiding war, that would be salvation by your works and rejecting Christ's offer of Salvation through His Grace? Not true, Yes,Salvation is Free By the Grace of God, (Ephesians 2) The works than that were before the world that He had planned for us than proceed in our lives. These are Good works that do not save us but come from our obediance once saved with The Holy Spirit guides us. A Christian still cannot force Good works on his own, but they come from The Holy Spirit guiding. War is not a Good work. Continued sin through voluntary action is not a good work and actually worse than a person trying to please God by doing a Good work to earn Salvation. Purposlly living a life of sin shows an obvious live with no salvation. These wars are part ofr a sinners voluntary choice thus purposly going against God. Therefore a person choosing to live in sin, cannot and does not lead to Salvation. A huge a part of Salvation is repentance. It is not a free gift that God will give and then a person can leave in on a table still packaged with wrapping and a bow. It must be opened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoodDay 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2010 These topics are not personal topics to attach to other members regardless of how you believe or do not believe as they do.That means you say what you do not believe. War is not a Good work. War is ordained by God, how can that not be a good work, in effect you are saying God is evil? You sound like a murderer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoodDay 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2010 Seeking, Please start at my first post and read them over again. You are right that one can not lose thier Salvation. Does a person show they are saved just by them saying, they are a Christian? If that's the case, it's an easy life. A person can do anything they want to and they just need to say they are a Chrisitan? Let's use this phrase; "A Holy Spirit In-Dwelled Christian." Bible based Christian sounds like something to rigid or something with book-ends and no freedom to do the work of God. There are many Christians in some Countries who do not even have Bibles but The Spirit Dwells with-in them. Would a Holy Spirit In dwelled Christian live an openly proud adultress life? The Government that controls you, doesn't follow God's Laws' in that area does it? What about the slow acceptance of Homosexuality in the Goverments that has it's control on you, do they follow God's Laws in that area? What about abortion? Can a person openly and proudly be a homosexual and say They are a Christian and justify it as Ok because their "God Ordained" leaders said it was Ok? (I allready know your answer). No, a person cannot lose thier Salvation. Therefore that only can mean that a Soldier was never a Christian. The Holy Spirit would convict a person big time in a war and He does, THOSE soldiers can BECOME christians and gain Salvation. War is not a little slip-in-sin. You know about the oaths and boot camp etc.. Seeking what do you think about those oaths that they take? Seeking, tell me about The Holy Spirit. Let's complete God. You tell people all sort of things about the Trinty etc.. But, do you really believe in it? If so answer these. I am not sure you did before. Show me battles and wars with examples of God in His Totality; 1. God in The Old Testamnent (You have showed plenty) 2. Jesus/God. 3. God The Holy Spirit Enough of this "God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow stuff. That's true, but the Bible clearly shows the differences of How He works in different parts of Time an History etc.. Works are evidence of Salvation not a method to secure or maintain Salvation (James 2:14) In your view would a Bible based Christian who joined the military "lose" their Salvation? 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, 29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father's hand. 30 The Father and I are one." (John 10:27-30) It would appear God chooses and it is a "done deal" 29 ¶ For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30) justified: 1344 δικαιοω dikaioo dik-ah-yo'-o AV-justify 37, be freed 1, be righteous 1, justifier 1; 40 1) to render righteous or such he ought to be This is not a case of man's self-righteousness based upon works "earning" his way Scripture clearly states this IS NOT the case 4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:4-10) While we were yet sinners AND as we were called AND no one can change that Scary thoughts coming from….."Believers" As to the deity of Jesus, I do not know. Scripture does not unequivocally state it, Jesus never stated it, and the general church took over 300 years to finally come to a consensus, one way or the other to state it. .John 10:30 Jesus said; "I and My Father are one." You can use what ever scripture you want to justify these wars and you are wrong. After this debate and some other things, I can boldly say it's a Salvational issue. Salvation by avoiding war, that would be salvation by your works and rejecting Christ's offer of Salvation through His Grace? Not true, Yes,Salvation is Free By the Grace of God, (Ephesians 2) The works than that were before the world that He had planned for us than proceed in our lives. These are Good works that do not save us but come from our obediance once saved with The Holy Spirit guides us. A Christian still cannot force Good works on his own, but they come from The Holy Spirit guiding. War is not a Good work. Continued sin through voluntary action is not a good work and actually worse than a person trying to please God by doing a Good work to earn Salvation. Purposlly living a life of sin shows an obvious live with no salvation. These wars are part ofr a sinners voluntary choice thus purposly going against God. Therefore a person choosing to live in sin, cannot and does not lead to Salvation. A huge a part of Salvation is repentance. It is not a free gift that God will give and then a person can leave in on a table still packaged with wrapping and a bow. It must be opened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoodDay 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2010 Sweet! Lol!!! This really made me laugh :-) Mine is black and it's a 2007- This one looks like a 2006. There are no headlights :-) I took my to the carwash to day. I told them to armor all the tires and they all just stared and were not sure what to do :-O lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoodDay 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2010 Seeking, Does Satan believe and or/know that Jesus is God? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2010 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. (James 2:19) I agree with this Seeking, Does Satan believe and or/know that Jesus is God? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 12, 2010 Seeking, Does Satan believe and or/know that Jesus is God? The demon servants of satan acknowledged the power of Jesus the Son of God and asked for His mercy. Matthew 8:28-34 Two Demon-Possessed Men Healed (Mark 5:1-20; Luke 8:26-39) 28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" 30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding. 31 So the demons begged Him, saying, "If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine." 32 And He said to them, "Go." So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water. 33 Then those who kept them fled; and they went away into the city and told everything, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they begged Him to depart from their region. NKJV Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2010 As the last post agreed with... Satan knows but still rejects Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Report post Posted August 5, 2010 Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional. This nation may have been founded on Christian principles but is deteriorating into a pagan nation. People would say that God has blessed this nation. Well the Babylonian empire was great in its time, can we say it was through God's blessing? We cannot call America a Christian nation and continue to kill unborn and partially born babies. We cannot call America a Christian nation and allow homosexuals to be pastors. Same way we cannot call a soldier a Christian who takes up a rifle and kills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 3, 2011 Seemed like the right time to bump this thread Are all "good molokans" going to work on the 4th in the US? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
