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A What If Question...


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#1 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 09:13 AM

Let's say you (as a child) and your parents took a trip to Hawaii but your ship crashes and your parents don't make it.

You find yourself on a deserted island with no hope of rescue

You have:
  • A Bible
  • The ability to read
  • The clothes on your back
  • All the wild bore and "Fear Factor-esque" creepy crawly things you can eat
You will not have:
  • russian clothes
  • an extini
  • The ability to eat kosher
  • a pomenki (sp)
As a molokan, could you make it to Heaven?
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#2 fountain-drink

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 05:34 PM

Russian Clothes
Extini
Ability to Eat Kosher
and Pominiki,
Doesn't get ANYONE into Heaven. For it's what comes out of your mouth rather than what goes into your mouth. Molokans wear Russian Clothes to church for modesty and nothing more. Anyone can have an Extini, and Pominki is just a formality...a "proper" burial.

#3 Nick Shubin

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 07:42 PM

Russian Clothes
  Molokans wear Russian Clothes to church for modesty and nothing more.

I wish you would let the other women in on that one! :p
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:13

#4 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 09:56 PM

Russian Clothes
Extini
Ability to Eat Kosher
and Pominiki,
Doesn't get ANYONE into Heaven.  For it's what comes out of your mouth rather than what goes into your mouth.  Molokans wear Russian Clothes to church for modesty and nothing more.  Anyone can have an Extini, and Pominki is just a formality...a "proper" burial.

Good Evening TK1:

You say no, but others (the tradionalists) would say you have to "keep the rules"

How is it that you, as a molokan, can make it to Heaven without all of the dress, ceremony & "rule keeping"?

As to "modesty" the Bible states:

"9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works." (1Timothy 2:9-10 NKJV)

What is modest?

russian dresses can cost upwards of of a couple hundred bucks

Could it be OK to wear a non-revealing (modest) dress from Mervyns that cost 40.00?
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#5 anakainosis

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 10:42 PM


For some of the women it has become more of a fashion show. There are rules as to how to dress properly. For example, my Russian shirt color must coincide with my wife`s outfit color. And certain colors are worn only on certain occasions. Open-toed shoes are not accepted by some women as proper. Anything outside these "regulations" is considered taboo. There are other ridiculous details of dress codes that vary from person to person. Is that being "modest"?

What about the single women that wear mini-skirts, revealing tops and high healed shoes? Are they taught to dress modestly?

What does "modest" mean to Russian Molokan tradition?

Why are our uniforms such an important element in Molokan worship?

Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#6 fountain-drink

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 12:17 PM

Poopsqually:

I will start a campain :p Stop worrying about how much you spend on an outfit!!

:lol:

Seeking the Truth and Anakainosis;

Well, I guess I am not considered a traditionalist, I am pretty much liberal. I should have stated in my post that those were my views and they don't apply to all Molokans. I didn't mean to mislead you I am sorry.

I agree with Ana, some parents of teenage girls do not teach them modisty. I donot have daughters. Going to church in a modest outfit from Mervyns? Well, that doesn't bother me, as long as it's floor length and wrist legnth and neck length and is not too tight is alright with me. What you wear to me will not get you into heaven. I do have a 1st cousin that does not wear the Traditional russian outfit, she does shop for "modest" clothing and wears that to church.

Seeking - I have spent upwards in the 200$$$ for an outfit, but not cause it's lavish or the material was expensive but because I don't sew and I am at the mercy of what a sewer charges. I know, it's rediculas!!

I am a plain woman, I have no need to outshine my fellow church members. Most of the time my husband and I do not match. He is a "white" person and I love colors.

Seeking asked me How can I make it to Heaven without all the dress, cerremony and "rule keeping"? It's simple for me, I don't make those things my Idol, if you worry about those things they become your downfall. Jesus is my Savior not what I wear.

#7 sadichka

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 10:39 AM

*Let's say you (as a child) and your parents took a trip to Hawaii but your ship crashes and your parents don't make it. * {First of all¦a ship sinks and an airplane crashes¦or at least falls out of the sky. Also, I must be old enough to swim, right?}

*You find yourself on a deserted island with no hope of rescue* {Assuming that I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, there is always ˜hope`}

You have:

*A Bible* (thank the Lord¦ I am glad that my Mom packed my Bible in a waterproof bag!)

*The ability to read *(I guess my glasses must have survived the crash)

*The clothes on your back* ( No pants? No skirt? :wub: Don`t want to go there!)

*All the wild bore and "Fear Factor-esque" creepy crawly things you can eat *(Yum)

You will not have:

*russian clothes* (I thought I had the clothes on my back? :o ...I am Russian you know! And BTW¦if I am a child, I would not be wearing a Russian outfit anyway. Although, the poise & kasinka pins sure would come in handy. <_< I could make a 'Survivor' bamboo fishing pole using the poise as the line, the kasinka pin as a hook and the poise tassles as a fishing jig!)

*an extini* (Been there done that! :rolleyes: I am already reading, remember)

*The ability to eat kosher* (That is a choice you know, vegetarian diet with a plethora of crickets¦Remember *****, Shadrach, Meshach and Abedneego? If I had my Bible, I would read about that. Also, if nothing else survived, how could I kill the wild boar in order to eat it? I don`t think that it would stand still as I gnawed on its leg :wacko: )

*a pomenki * ( I survived¦why would I need a pomenki? ;) ...you are not the type to bury your survivors, are you?!)

*As a molokan, could you make it to Heaven*¦ {Come on Seeking¦what do you think? Only if you have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, repented of your sins, dedicated your life to following His will.}



I agree with Tk1¦My husband likes to wear white. We normally do not match. I also wear ˜hand-me-down` outfits. Just takes a needle and thread to alter them. Or if I am on a deserted island, I could use a poise and a kasinka pin to alter it! :D

Sada

ps....I like this game!

pss...A 'modest' dress for $40.00 at Mervyns? You must shop the extreme markdown rack! Actually, I know of a woman that bought a long skirt and top(long sleeve) at Macy's for $90.00. She wears it to church and gets many compliments on it. I tried to buy one myself but they were all sold out!
Hosea 10:12
12 Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love, and break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to seek the Lord, until he comes and showers righteousness on you.

#8 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 12:30 PM

I am in agreement with TK1 & sadichka regarding Jesus being Lord and Savior

However, I believe that you (TK1 & sadichka) do not represent a vocal majority as it should be in any Church

Traditionalists still seem to run the show with the "keep the rules" rules

It's unfortunate the bondage that some live under because they aren't being taught Scripture

My heart especially breaks for the children of staunch traditionalists (especially the "clarkies")

They don't know any better and are being lead off a cliff by "elders"

They are in this cycle of ceremony with no understanding that much of it has NO basis in Scripture.

Just a bunch of lies in the form of "godly" rules

Maybe in this scenario, I should have added a pointy stick too

If it worked for Shamgar it should be perfect ;)
  • " After him was Shamgar the son of Anath, who killed six hundred men of the Philistines with an ox goad(a.k.a. pointy stick); and he also delivered Israel." (Judges 3:31 NKJV)

**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#9 sadichka

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 01:50 PM

:D

Well, seeking, if I had a 'pointy stick' I would certainly give to you! Oh...Umm, I mean I would 'hand' it to you! :wub:

Thank you for the kind words.

Another thought in regards to the 'dress' issue:

**No, I am not bringing my Burqa out of the attack!**

I was listening to the radio (Yes, a Christian Radio Station!) and these verses stood out ...He was talking about the 'kinsman redeemer' and it struck me at that moment. The Lord is our Redeemer!

Isaiah 61:10
10 I am overwhelmed with joy in the LORD my God! For he has dressed me with the clothing of salvation and draped me in a robe of righteousness. I am like a bridegroom in his wedding suit or a bride with her jewels. 11 The Sovereign LORD will show his justice to the nations of the world. Everyone will praise him! His righteousness will be like a garden in early spring, filled with young plants springing up everywhere.

No point to make, just sharing what God taught me today!

Sada
Hosea 10:12
12 Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love, and break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to seek the Lord, until he comes and showers righteousness on you.

#10 Rush--In

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 04:23 PM

:no: I don't see Jesus talking anything about cloths but I do see Him saying in Mat 11:28 Come to me ALL you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest V29 Take my yoke upon you and LEARN from me.. It seem's to me that the injection of man in religion has steered us from the truth---LEARN FROM ME---put away all the smoke and mirrors and seek the truth found only in the bible---and you will be blessed---YOU--- :) -----Blessings Rush--In

#11 sadichka

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 04:42 PM

Rush--in:

You are correct, it was not Jesus talkin', it was Isaiah. I believe he was not speaking literally ;) Also, I agree that there are too many 'smoke and mirror' games being played. :(

And by the way...may God bless YOU too! :rolleyes:

Sada
Hosea 10:12
12 Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love, and break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to seek the Lord, until he comes and showers righteousness on you.

#12 Rush--In

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 05:13 PM

:rolleyes: Hey Sada---I am sure it was Jesus speaking in Mat 11:28---look for yourself and I am glad to see that people are doing that looking for themselfs---The people who are willing to let someone else tell them what the bible say's are getting only what that person wants them to know---Jesus wants us to Learn of Him and be blessed not just sit and be told---If YOU seek Him YOU will find Him---Always remember salvation is an on an indiviaul basis and so is understanding----Peace and Live by Psalm 1-----------Rush--In

#13 axiom

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 08:41 PM

Hey, let get back to the game..

Now let's say this child is now grown and a old person. "politically correct" B) Now Jesus walks up to him and says you want to be saved call on Me. If he choose's "A" or "B" which one will save him?



A- Romans 10:13 " Who ever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" :D


B- 1 John 2:22 " Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. :(

#14 sadichka

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 07:58 PM

Rush--in:

Cool. :D I agree that Jesus was speaking in Matthew 11:28... In addition to that thought, Isaiah was speaking in Isaiah 61:10.

Psalm 1...good readin'


Sada :)
Hosea 10:12
12 Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love, and break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to seek the Lord, until he comes and showers righteousness on you.

#15 sadichka

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 08:05 PM

Axiom:

Re: The game.....

If Jesus walks up to me and said "Do you want to be saved call on Me." I would

C: Call upon His name and walk with Him... I would leave the physical Bible on the island and walk with the living Word. Who knows, I could probably walk on water with Him. I would walk right off that island! I would not have to make a choice between 'A' or 'B' & I wouldn't be deserted because I had the love of Christ with me.

Sada ^_^
Hosea 10:12
12 Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love, and break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to seek the Lord, until he comes and showers righteousness on you.

#16 sadichka

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 10:29 PM

Hello?

R U still there?

Hmmm. <_<
Hosea 10:12
12 Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love, and break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to seek the Lord, until he comes and showers righteousness on you.

#17 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:59 AM

Er uh, me? Or that other guy?
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#18 sadichka

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 10:55 AM

Er...Uh..Well, I mean...you! Yeah, that's it ....you.

You took the conversation elsewhere.....if you post it they will come! ;)

Sada <_<

(_)?*Got Coffee?*
Hosea 10:12
12 Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love, and break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to seek the Lord, until he comes and showers righteousness on you.

#19 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 12:20 PM

We've been a bit on the busy side with life and related but still "reading the mail"

We have a couple of "pointy" articles for what anna-kannno-noizes-isizzes calls the "two book molokans" coming up shortly

For the true Christians, we were thinking about doing a study like before on another site...

I guess I need to spend more time typing

peace - out
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#20 anakainosis

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 12:55 PM


Err¦ Uh.., wha¦ lol!

Seek, I think Steadfast coined the terms ˜Two-book Molokans`. Remember we need to give credit to where credit is due. You don`t want to be known as a liar¦

I will have to ask permission from steadfast if I could start using it! What a great distinction! There are those Molokans who support their Church`s decision to uphold and protect their New Jewish Messiah`s literature who are the ˜Two-book Molokans` as opposed to the ˜One-book Molokans`. The ˜One-book Molokans` are those who are steadfast to the Word of God contained in the Holy Scriptures only. It would be incorrect to assume that all Molokans are Maximist.

I`ll stop here for now¦

Er¦ ugh¦ I don`t want to offend anyone¦ nevertheless it happens anyways no matter how you put it.





Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#21 steadfast

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 03:30 PM

If anyone would use the term "Two Book Molokans " when bringing forth truth, please do so.

I know you have Gods blessing.

God also loves the truth and His children that value it.

#22 ligonier

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Posted 02 March 2005 - 07:00 PM

Interestingly enough, I have asked this question of a "Clark Streeter" (pre Clark street times). Ok, a question very similar in situation to this one. The answer I was given was that, if we have faith in God, He will provide what we need.

Wise words, I think we all can apply to our lives...... what we NEED.
"Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorant words?... Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. Do you know how its dimensions were determined and who did the surveying? What supports its foundations, and who laid its cornerstone as the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" (Job 38:2)

"Then the LORD said... Do you still want to argue with the Almighty? You are God's critic, but do you have the answers?" (Job 40:2)

Therefore I melt away; I repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:6)]
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Better to die awake.............................Than to live asleep. (read Mark 13:33-37)

#23 Guest_Smdrn_*

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