Free Will Carried Many A Soul To Hell

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Your other quote from Spurgeon is also great to ponder,

 

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

Lastinline

 

 

 

Yes it is a great one to ponder. We all naturally believe we have this god given free will to do whatever we want in this world. We have the ability to make choices and decisions, but to have true saving faith in Christ we cannot do. This is what scripture teaches. Scriptures teach that we are slaves to and dead in sin. We are so dead that it takes a work of God to raise us to believe in Christ. Yet, many do not accept this; in fact it took me a long time to come to terms with it. Many churches including the Molokan teach this free will salvation. You will hear often on the radio shows from Calvary Chapel ministers teaching this. They teach that it is up to you to make a decision to come to Christ, you have to come half way by believing in him, and then he will save you. They say why would God force anyone to come to him? They wouldn`t have free will in that case. But from the biblical perspective, you really do have free will and that is why we are all in trouble.

 

Lastinline, have you studied this topic? If not I highly suggest it,

 

Take a look see at this Spurgeon sermon and let me know what you think.

 

 

 

DELIVERED ON SABBATH MORNING, DECEMBER 2, 1855, BY THE

REV. C. H. SPURGEON,

AT NEW PARK STREET CHAPEL, SOUTHWARK.

____________________

 

And ye will not come unto me, that ye might have life."”John v 40.

 

THIS is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are:”First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved. Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words "will," or "will not" in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free-will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is "Alpha and Omega" in the salvation of men.

 

Our four points, this morning, shall be,”First. that every man is dead, because it says, "Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life."Secondly, that there is life in Jesus Christ”"Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life." Thirdly, that there is life in Christ Jesus for every one that comes for it”" Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life;" implying that all who go will have life. And fourthly, the gist of the text lies here, that no man by nature ever will come to Christ,for the text says, "Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life." So far from asserting that men of their own wills ever do such a thing, it boldly and flatly denies it, and says, Ye WILL NOT come unto me that ye might have life." Why, beloved, I am almost ready to exclaim, Have all free-willers no knowledge that they dare to run in the teeth of inspiration? Have all those that deny the doctrine of grace no sense? Have they so departed from God that they wrest this to prove free-will; whereas the text says, "YE WILL NOT come unto me that ye might have life."

 

I. First, then, our text implies THAT MEN BY NATURE ARE DEAD. No being needs to go after life if he has life in himself. The text speaks very strongly when it says, "Ye will not come unto me, that ye might have life," though it saith it not in words, yet it doth in effect affirm that men need a life more than they have themselves. My hearers, we are all dead unless we have been begotten unto a lively hope. First, we are all of us, by nature, legally dead:”"In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt die the death," said God to Adam; and though Adam did not die in that moment naturally, he died legally; that is to say death was recorded against him. As soon as, at the Old Bailey, the judge puts on the black cap and pronounces the sentence, the man is reckoned to be dead at law. Though perhaps a month may intervene before he is brought on the scaffold to endure the sentence of the law, yet the law looks upon him as a dead man. It is impossible for him to transact anything. He cannot inherit, he cannot bequeath; he is nothing”he is a dead man. The country considers him not as being alive in it at all. There is an election”he is not asked for his vote because he is considered as dead. He is shut up in his condemned cell, and he is dead. Ah! and ye ungodly sinners who have never had life in Christ, you are alive this morning, by reprieve, but do ye know that ye are legally dead; that God considers you as such, that in the day when your father Adam touched the fruit, and when you yourselves did sin, God, the Eternal Judge, put on the black cap and condemned you? You talk mightily of your own standing, and goodness, and morality:”where is it? Scripture saith, ye are "condemned already." Ye are not to wait to be condemned at the judgment-day”that will be the execution of the sentence:”"ye are condemned already." In the moment ye sinned; your names were all written in the black book of justice; every one was then sentenced by God to death, unless he found a substitute, in the person of Christ, for his sins. What would you think if you were so go into the Old Bailey, and see the condemned culprit sitting in his cell, laughing and merry? You would I say, "The man is a fool, for he is condemned, and is to be executed; yet how merry he is." Ah! and how foolish is the worldly man, who, while sentence is recorded against him, lives in merriment and mirth! Do you think the sentence of God is of no effect? Thinkest thou that thy sin which is written with an iron pen on the rocks for ever hath no horrors in it? God hath said thou art condemned already. If thou wouldst but feel this, it would mingle bitters in the sweet cups of joy; thy dances would be stopped, thy laughter quenched in sighing, if then wouldst recollect that thou art condemned already. We ought all to weep, if we lay this to our souls: that by nature we have no life in God`s sight; we are actually, positively condemned; death is recorded against us, and we are considered in ourselves now, in Gods sight, as much dead as if we were actually cast into hell; we are condemned here by sin, we do not yet suffer the penalty of it, but it is written against us, and we are legally dead, nor can we find life unless we find legal life in the person of Christ, of which more by-and-bye.

But, besides being legally dead, we are also spiritually dead. For not only did the sentence pass in the book, but it passed in the heart; it entered the conscience; it operated on the soul, on the judgment, on the imagination, and on everything. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die," was not only fulfilled by the sentence recorded, but by something which took place in Adam. Just as, in a certain moment, when this body shall die, the blood stops, the pulse ceases, the breath no longer comes from the lungs, so in the day that Adam did eat that fruit his soul died; his imagination lost its mighty power to climb into celestial things and see heaven, his will lost its power always to choose that which is good, his judgment lost all ability to judge between right and wrong decidedly and infallibly, though something was retained in conscience; his memory became tainted, liable to hold evil things, and let righteous things glide away; every power of him ceased as to its moral vitality. Goodness was the vitality of his powers”that departed. Virtue, holiness, integrity, these were the life of man; but when these departed man became dead. And now, every man, so far as spiritual things are concerned, is "dead in trespasses and sins," spiritually. Nor is the soul less dead in a carnal man, than the body is when committed to the grave; it is actually and positively dead”not by a metaphor, for Paul speaketh not in metaphor when he affirms, "You hath he quickened which were dead in trespasses and sins." But my hearers, again, I would I could preach to your hearts concerning the subject. It was bad enough when I described death as having been recorded; but now I speak of it as having actually taken place in your hearts. Ye are not what ye once were; ye are not what ye were in Adam, not what ye were created. Man was made pure and holy. Ye are not the perfect creatures of which some boast; ye are altogether fallen, ye have gone out of the way, ye have become corrupt and filthy. Oh! listen not to the syren song of those who tell you of your moral dignity, and your mighty elevation in matters of salvation. Ye are not perfect; that great word, "ruin," is written on your heart, and death is stamped upon your spirit. Do not conceive, O moral man, that thou wilt be able to stand before God in thy morality, for thou art nothing but a carcase embalmed in legality, a corpse arrayed in some fine robes, but still corrupt in God`s sight. And think not, O thou possessor of natural religion! that thou mayest by thine own might and power make thyself acceptable to God. Why, man!thou art dead! and thou mayest array the dead as gloriously as thou pleasest, but still it would be a solemn mockery. There lieth queen Cleopatra”put the crown upon her head, deck her in royal robes, let her sit in state; but what a cold chill runs through you when you pass by her. She is fair now, even in her death”but how horrible it is to stand by the side even of a dead queen, celebrated for her majestic beauty! So you may be glorious in your beauty, fair, and amiable, and lovely; you put the crown of honesty upon your head, and wear about you all the garments of uprightness, but unless God has quickened thee, O man! unless the Spirit has had dealings with thy soul, thou art in God`s sight as obnoxious as the chilly corpse is to thyself. Thou wouldst not choose to live with a corpse sitting at thy table; nor doth God love that thou shouldst be in his sight. He is angry with thee every day, for thou art in sin”thou art in death. Oh! believe this; take it to thy soul; appropriate it, for it is most true that thou art dead, spiritually as well as legally.

 

The third kind of death is the consummation of the other two. It is eternal death. It is the execution of the legal sentence; it is the consummation of the spiritual death. Eternal death is the death of the soul; it takes place after the body has been laid in the grave, after the soul has departed from it. If legal death be terrible, it is because of its consequences; and if spiritual death be dreadful, it is because of that which shall succeed it. The two deaths of which we have spoken are the roots, and the death which is to come is the flower thereof Oh! had I words that I might this morning attempt to depict to you what eternal death is. The soul has come before its Maker; the book has been opened; the sentence has been uttered; "Depart ye cursed" has shaken the universe, and made the very spheres dim with the frown of the Creator; the soul has departed to the depths where it is to dwell with others in eternal death. Oh! how horrible is its position now. Its bed is a bed of flame; the sights it sees are murdering ones that affright its spirit; the sounds it hears are shrieks, and wails, and moans, and groans; all that its body knows is the infliction of miserable pain! it has the possession of unutterable woe, of unmitigated misery. The soul looks up. Hope is extinct”it is gone. It looks downward in dread and fear; remorse hath possessed its soul. It looks on the right hand”and the adamantine walls of fate keep it within its limits of torture. It looks on the left”and there the rampart of blazing fire forbids the scaling ladder of e`en a dreamy speculation of escape. It looks within and seeks for consolation there, but a gnawing worm hath entered into the soul. It looks about it”it has no friends to aid, no comforters, but tormentors in abundance. It knoweth nought of hope of deliverance; hath heard the everlasting key of destiny turning in its awful wards, and it hath God take that key and hurl it down into the depth of eternity never to be found again. It hopeth not; it knoweth no escape; it guesseth not of deliverance; it pants for death, but death is too much its foe to be there; it longs that non-existence swallow it up, but this eternal death is worse than annihilation. It pants for extermination as the laborer for his Sabbath; it longs that it might be swallowed in nothingness just as would the galley slave long for freedom, but it cometh notit is eternally dead. When eternity shall have rolled round multitudes of its cycles it shall still be dead. For ever knoweth no end; eternity cannot be spelled except in eternity. Still the soul seeth written o`er its head, "Thou art damned for ever." It heareth howlings that are to be perpetual; it seeth flames which are unquenchable; it knoweth pains that are unmitigated; it hears a sentence that rolls not like the thunder of earth which soon is hushed”but onward, onward, onward, shaking the echoes of eternity”making thousands of years shake again with the horrid thunder of its dreadful sound”"Depart! depart! depart ye cursed!" This the eternal death.

 

II. Secondly, IN CHRIST JESUS THERE IS LIFE, for he says, "ye will not come me that ye may have life."There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ,life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover”the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was”there is life in Christ. We will show you there are three kinds of life in Christ, as there are three kinds of death.

First there is legal life in Christ. Just as every man by nature considered in Adam had a sentence of condemnation passed on him in the moment of Adam`s sin, and more especially in the moment of his own first transgression, so I, if I be a believer, and you, if you trust in Christ, have had a legal sentence of acquittal passed on us through what Jesus Christ has done. O condemned sinner! thou mayest be sitting this morning condemned like the prisoner in Newgate; but ere this day has passed away thou mayest be as clear from guilt as the angels above. There is such a thing as legal life in Christ, and, blessed be God! some of us enjoy it. We know our sins are pardoned because Christ suffered punishment for them; we know that we never can be punished ourselves, for Christ suffered in our stead. The Passover is slain for us; the lintel and door-post have been sprinkled, and the destroying angel can never touch us. For us there is no hell, although it blaze with terrible flame. Let Tophet be prepared of old, let its pile be wood and much smoke, we never can come there”Christ died for us, in our stead. ˜What if there be racks of horrid torture? what if there be a sentence producing most horrible reverberations of thundering sounds? yet neither rack, nor dungeon, nor thunder, are for us! In Christ Jesus we are now delivered. "There is, therefore, Now no condemnation unto us who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

 

Sinner! art thou legally condemned this morning? Dost thou feel that? Then, let me tell thee that faith in Christ will give thee a knowledge of thy legal acquittal. Beloved, it is no fancy that we are condemned for our sins, it is a reality. So, it is no fancy we are acquitted, it is a reality. A man about to be hanged, if he received a full pardon would feel it a great reality. He would say, "I have a full pardon, I cannot be touched now." That is just how I feel.

 

"Now freed from sin I walk at large,

The Saviour`s blood`s my full discharge;

At his dear feet content I lay,

A sinner saved, and homage pay."

 

Brethren, we have gained legal life in Christ, and such legal life that we cannot lose it. The sentence has gone against us once”now it has gone out for us. It is written, "THERE IS NOW NO CONDEMNATION, and that acre will do as well for me in fifty years as it does now. Whatever time we live it will still be written, "There is, therefore, now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

 

Then, secondly, there is spiritual life in Christ Jesus. As the man is spiritually dead, God has spiritual life for him, for there is not a want which is not supplied by Jesus, there is not an emptiness in the heart which Christ cannot fill; there is not a desolation which he cannot people, there is not a desert which he cannot make to blossom as the rose. O ye dead sinners! spiritually dead, there is life in Christ Jesus, for we have seen”yes! these eyes have seen”the dead live again; we have known the man whose soul was utterly corrupt, by the power of God seek after righteousness; we have known the man whose views were carnal whose lusts were mighty, whose passions were strong, suddenly, by irresistible might from heaven, consecrate himself to Christ, and become a child of Jesus. We know that there is life in Christ Jesus, of a spiritual order; yea, more, we ourselves, in our own persons, have felt that there is spiritual life. Well can we remember when we sat in the house of prayer, as dead as the very seat on which we sat. We had listened for a long, long while to the sound of the gospel, but no effect followed, when suddenly, as if our ears had been opened by the fingers of some mighty angel, a sound entered into our heart. We thought we heard Jesus saying, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." An irresistable hand put itself on our heart and crushed a prayer out of it. We never had a prayer before like that. We cried, "O God! have mercy upon me a sinner." Some of us for months felt a hand pressing us as if we had been grasped in a vice, and our souls bled drops of anguish. That misery was a sign of coming life. Persons when they are being drowned do not feel the pain so much as while they are being restored. Oh! we recollect those pains, those groans, that living strife which our soul had when it came to Christ. Ah! we can recollect the giving of our spiritual life as easily as could a man his restoration from the grave. We can suppose Lazarus to have remembered his resurrection, though not all the circumstances of it. So we, although we have forgotten a great deal, do recollect our giving ourselves to Christ. We can say to every sinner, however dead, there is life in Christ Jesus, though you may be rotten and corrupt in your grave. He who hath raised Lazarus hath raised us; and he can say, even to you, "Lazarus! come forth."

 

In the third place, there is eternal life in Christ Jesus. And, oh! if eternal death be terrible, eternal life is blessed; for he has said, "˜Where I am there shall my people be." "Father, I will, that they also, whom thou hast given unto me, be with me where Lam, that they may behold my glory." "I give unto my sheep eternal life, and they shall never perish." Now, any Arminian that would preach from that text must buy a pair of India rubber lips, for I am sure he would need to stretch his mouth amazingly; he would never be able to speak the whole truth without winding about in a most mysterious manner. Eternal life”not a life which they are to lose, but eternal life. If I lost life in Adam I gained it in Christ; if I lost myself for ever I find myself for ever in Jesus Christ. Eternal life! Oh blessed thought! Our eyes will sparkle with joy and our souls burn with ecstasy in the thought that we have eternal life. Be quenched ye stars! let God put his finger on you”but my soul will live in bliss and joy. Put out thine eye O sun!”but mine eye shall "see the king in his beauty" when thine eye shall no more make the green earth laugh. And moon, be thou turned into blood!”but my blood shall ne`er be turned to nothingness; this spirit shall exist when thou hast ceased to be. And thou great world! thou mayest all subside, just as a moment`s foam subsides upon the wave that bears it”but I shall have eternal life. O time! thou mayest see giant mountains dead and hidden in their graves; thou mayest see the stars like figs too ripe, falling from the tree; but thou shalt never, never see my spirit dead.

 

III. This brings us to the third point: that ETERNAL LIFE IS GIVEN TO ALL WHO COME FOR IT. There never was a man who came to Christ for eternal life, for legal life, for spiritual life, who had not already received it, in some sense, and it was manifested to him that he had received it soon after he came. Let us take one or two texts:” "He is able to save to the uttermost them that come unto him." Every man who comes to Christ will find that Christ is able to save him”not able to save him a little, to deliver him from a little sin, to keep him from a little trial, to carry him a little way and then drop him”but able to save him to the uttermost extent of his sin, unto the uttermost length of his trials, the uttermost depths of his sorrows, unto the uttermost duration of his existence. Christ says to every one who comes to him, "Come, poor sinner, thou needst not ask whether I have power to save. I will not ask thee how far thou hast gone into sin; I am able to save thee to the uttermost." And there is no one on earth can go beyond God`s "uttermost."

 

Now another text: "Him that cometh to me, (mark the promises are nearly always to the coming ones) I will in no wise cast out." Every man that comes shall find the door of Christ`s house opened”and the door of his heart too”Every man that comes”I say it in the broadest sense”shall find that Christ has mercy for him. The greatest absurdity in the world is to want to have a wider gospel than that recorded in Scripture. I preach that every man that believes shall be saved”that every man who comes shall find mercy. People ask me, "But suppose a man should come who was not chosen, would he be saved?" You go and suppose nonsense and I am not going to give you an answer. If a man is not chosen he will never come. When he does come it is a sure proof that he was chosen. Says one, "Suppose any one should go to Christ who had not been called of the Spirit." Stop, my brother, that is a supposition thou hast no right to make, for such a thing cannot happen; you only say it to entangle me, and you will not do that just yet. I say every man who comes to Christ shall be saved. I can say that as a Calvinist, or as a hyperCalvinist, as plainly as you can say it. I have no narrower gospel than you have; only my gospel is on a solid foundation, whereas yours is built upon nothing but sand and rottenness. "Every man that cometh shall be saved, for no man cometh to me except the Father draw him." "But," says one, "suppose all the world should come, would Christ receive them?" Certainly, if all came; but then they won`t come. I tell you all that come”aye,if they were as bad as devils, Christ would receive them; if they had all sin and filthiness running into their hearts as into a common sewer for the whole world, Christ would receive them. Another says, "I want to know about the rest of the people. May I go out and tell them”Jesus Christ died for every one of you? May I say”there is righteousness for every one of you, there is life for every one of you?" No; you may not. You may say”there is life for every man that comes. But if you say there is life for one of those that do not believe, you utter a dangerous lie. If you tell them that Jesus Christ was punished for their sins, and yet they will he lost, you tell a willful falsehood. To think that God could punish Christ and then punish them”I wonder at your daring to have the impudence to say so! A good man was once preaching that there were harps and crowns in heaven for all his congregation; and then he wound up in a most solemn manner: "My dear friends, there are many for whom these things are prepared who will not get there." In fact, he made such a pitiful tale, as indeed he might do; but I tell you who he ought to have wept for”he ought to have wept for the angels of heaven and all the saints, because that would spoil heaven thoroughly. You know when you meet at Christmas, if you have lost your brother David and his seat is empty, you say: "Well, we always enjoyed Christmas, but there is a drawback to it now”poor David is dead and buried!" Think of the angels saying: "Ah! this is a beautiful heaven, but we don`t like to see all those crowns up there with cobwebs on; we cannot endure that uninhabited street: we cannot behold yon empty thrones." And then, poor souls, they might begin talking to one another, and say, "we are none of us safe here, for the promise was”˜I give unto my sheep eternal life,` and there is a lot of them in hell that God gave eternal life to; there is a number that Christ shed his blood for burning in the pit, and if they may be sent there, so may we. If we cannot trust one promise we cannot another." So heaven would lose its foundation, and fall. Away with your nonsensical gospel! God gives us a safe and solid one, built on covenant doings and covenant relationships, on eternal purposes and sure fulfilments.

 

IV. This brings us to the fourth point, THAT BY NATURE NO MAN WILL COME TO CHRIST for the text says, "Ye will not come unto me, that ye might have life." I assert, on Scripture authority from my text, that ye will not come unto Christ, that ye might have life. I tell you, I might preach to you for ever, I might borrow the eloquence of Demosthenes or of Cicero, but ye will not come unto Christ. I might beg of you on my knees, with tears in my eyes, and show you the horrors of hell and the joys of heaven, the sufficiency of Christ, and your own lost condition, but you would none of you come unto Christ of yourselves unless the Spirit that rested on Christ should draw you. It is true of all men in their natural condition that they will not come unto Christ. But, methinks I hear another of these babblers asking a question:”"But could they not come if they liked?" My friend, I will reply to thee another time. That is not the question this morning. I am talking about whether they will,not whether they can. You will notice whenever you talk about free will, the poor Arminian, in two seconds, begins to talk about power, and he mixes up two subjects that should be keep apart. We will not take two subjects at once; we decline fighting two at the same time, if you please. Another day we will preach from this text:”"No man can come except the Father draw him." But it is only the will we are talking of now; and it is certain that men will not come unto Christ, that they might have life. We might prove this from many texts of Scripture, but we will take one parable. You remember the parable where a certain king had a feast for his son, and bade a great number to come; the oxen and fatlings were killed, and he sent his messengers bidding many to the supper. Did they go the feast? Ah, no; but they all, with one accord, began to make excuse. One said he had married a wife, and therefore he could not come, whereas he might have brought her with him. Another had bought a yoke of oxen, and went to prove them; but the feast was in the night-time, and he could not prove his oxen in the dark. Another had bought a piece of land, and wanted to see it; but I should not think he went to see it with a lantern. So they all made excuses and would not come. Well the king was determined to have the feast; so he said, "Go into the highways and hedges; and" invite them”stop! not invite”" compel them to come in;" for even the ragged fellows in the hedges would never have come unless they were compelled. Take another parable:”A certain man had a vineyard; at the appointed season he sent one of his servants for his rent. What did they do to him? They beat that servant. He sent another; and they stoned him. He sent another and they killed him. And, at last, he said, "I will send them my son, they will reverence him." But what did they do? They said, "This is the heir, let us kill him, and cast him out of the vineyard." So they did. It is the same with all men by nature. The Son of God came, yet men rejected him. "Ye will not come unto me, that ye might have life." It would take too much time to mention any more Scripture proofs. We will, however, refer to the great doctrine of the fall. Any one who believes that man`s will is entirely free, and that he can be saved by it, does not believe the fall. As I sometimes tell you, few preachers of religion do believe thoroughly the doctrine of the fall, or else they think that when Adam fell down he broke his little finger, and did not break his neck and ruin his race. Why, beloved, the fall broke man up entirely. It did not leave one power unimpaired; they were all shattered, and debased, and tarnished; like some mighty temple, the pillars might be there, the shaft, and the column, and the pilaster, might be there; but they were all broken, though some of them retain much of their form and position. The conscience of man sometimes retains much of its tenderness”still it has fallen. The will, too, is not exempt. What though it is "the Lord Mayor of Mansoul," as Bunyan calls it; the Lord Mayor goes wrong. The Lord Will-be-will was continually doing wrong. Your fallen nature was put out of order; your will, amongst other things, has clean gone astray from God. But I tell you what will be the best proof of that; it is the great fact that you never did meet a Christian in your life who ever said he came to Christ without Christ coming to him. You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer”for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that 1 have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but l do. There are many that wilI go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as l am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not”that is the difference between me and them.

That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that. Ah! when they are preaching and talking very slowly, there may be wrong doctrine; but when they come to pray, the true thing slips out; they cannot help it. If a man talks very slowly, he may speak in a fine manner; but when he comes to talk fast, the old brogue of his country, where he was born, slips out. I ask you again, did you ever meet a Christian man who said, "I came to Christ without the power of the Spirit?" If you ever did meet such a man, you need have no hesitation in saying, "My dear sir, I quite believe it”and I believe you went away again without the power of the Spirit, and that you know nothing about the matter, and are in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity." Do I hear one Christian man saying, "I sought Jesus before he sought me; I went to the Spirit, and the Spirit did not come to me?" No, beloved; We are obliged, each one of us, to put our hands to our hearts, and say”

 

"Grace taught my soul to pray,

And made my eyes o`erflow;

˜Twas grace that kept me to this day,

And will not let me go."

 

Is there one here”a solitary one”man or woman, young or old, who can say, "I sought God before he sought me?"No; even you who are a little Arminian, will Sing ”

"O yes! I do love Jesus”

Because he first loved me"

 

Then, one more question. Do we not find, even after we have come to Christ, our soul is not free, but is kept by Christ? Do we not find times, even now, when to will is not present with us. There is a law in our members, warring against the law of our minds. Now, if those who are spiritually alive feel that their will is contrary to God, what shall we say of the man who is "dead in trespasses and sins?" It would be a marvellous absurdity to put the two on a level; and it would be still more absurd to put the dead before the living. No; the text is true, experience has branded it into our hearts," Ye will not come unto me, that ye might have life."

 

Now, we must tell you the reasons why men will not come unto Christ. The first is, because no man by nature thinks he wants Christ. By nature man conceives that he does not need Christ; he thinks that he has a robe of righteousness of his own, that he is well-dressed, that he is not naked, that he needs not Christ`s blood to wash him, that he is not black or crimson, and needs no grace to purify him. No man knows his need until God shows it to him; and until the Holy Spirit reveals the necessity of pardon, no man will seek pardon. I may preach Christ for ever, but unless you feel you want Christ you will never come to him. A doctor may have a good shop, but nobody will buy his medicines until he feels he wants them.

 

The next reason is, because men do not like Christ`s way of saving them. One says, "I do not like it because he makes me holy;I cannot drink or swear if he saves me." Another says, "It requires me to be so precise and puritanical, and I like a little more license." Another does not like it because it is so humbling; he does not like it because the "gate of heaven" is not quite high enough for his head, and he does not like stooping. That is the chief reason ye will not come to Christ, because ye cannot get to him with your heads straight up in the air; for Christ makes you stoop when you come. Another does not like it to be grace from first to last. "Oh!" he says, "If I might have a little honor." But when he hears it is all Christ or no Christ, a whole Christ or no Christ, he says, "I shall not come," and turns on his heel and goes away. Ah! proud sinners, ye will not come unto Christ Ah! ignorant sinners, ye will not come unto Christ, because ye know nothing of him. And that is the third reason.

Men do not know his worth, for if they did they would come unto him. Why did not sailors go to America before Columbus went? Because they did not believe there was an America. Columbus had faith, therefore he went. He who hath faith in Christ goes to him. But you don`t know Jesus; many of you never saw his beauteous face; you never saw how applicable his blood is to a sinner, how great is his atonement ; and how all-sufficient are his merits, therefore, "ye will not come unto him."

 

And oh! my hearers, my last thought is a solemn one. I have preached that ye will not come. But some will say, "it is their sin that they do not come." It is so. You will not come, but then your will is a sinful will. Some think that we "sew pillows to all arm-holes" when we preach this doctrine, but we don`t. We do not set this down as being part of man`s original nature, but as belonging to his fallen nature. It is sin that has brought you into this condition that you will not come. If you had not fallen, you would come to Christ the moment he was preached to you; but you do not come because of your sinfulness and crime. People excuse themselves because they have bad hearts. That is the most flimsy excuse in the world. Do not robbery and thieving come from a bad heart. Suppose a thief should say to a judge, "I could not help it, I had a bad heart." What would the judge say? "You rascal! why, if your heart is bad, I`ll make the sentence heavier, for you are a villain indeed. Your excuse is nothing." The Almighty shall "laugh at them, and shall have them in derision." We do not preach this doctrine to excuse you, but to humble you. The possession of a bad nature is my fault as well as my terrible calamity. It is a sin that will always be charged on men; when they will not come unto Christ it is sin that keeps them away. He who does not preach that, I fear is not faithful to God and his conscience. Go home, then, with this thought: " I am by nature so perverse that I will not come unto Christ, and that wicked perversity of my nature is my sin. I deserve to be sent to hell for it." And if the thought does not humble you, the Spirit using it, no other can. This morning I have not preached human nature up, but I have preached it down. God humble us all. Amen.

[lastinline 0]

Definitely, a great read! He must have known that he had his detractors in attendance that very day of this sermon. He seems to ask their questions and then answers them eloquently.

 

"Him that cometh to me, (mark the promises are nearly always to the coming ones) I will in no wise cast out." Every man that comes shall find the door of Christ`s house opened”and the door of his heart too”Every man that comes”I say it in the broadest sense”shall find that Christ has mercy for him.The greatest absurdity in the world is to want to have a wider gospel than that recorded in Scripture. I preach that every man that believes shall be saved”that every man who comes shall find mercy. People ask me, "But suppose a man should come who was not chosen, would he be saved?" You go and suppose nonsense and I am not going to give you an answer. If a man is not chosen he will never come. When he does come it is a sure proof that he was chosen.

 

Says one, "Suppose any one should go to Christ who had not been called of the Spirit." Stop, my brother, that is a supposition thou hast no right to make, for such a thing cannot happen; you only say it to entangle me, and you will not do that just yet. I say every man who comes to Christ shall be saved. I can say that as a Calvinist, or as a hyperCalvinist, as plainly as you can say it. I have no narrower gospel than you have; only my gospel is on a solid foundation, whereas yours is built upon nothing but sand and rottenness."Every man that cometh shall be saved, for no man cometh to me except the Father draw him."

 

Another says, "I want to know about the rest of the people. May I go out and tell them”Jesus Christ died for every one of you? May I say”there is righteousness for every one of you, there is life for every one of you?" No; you may not. You may say”there is life for every man that comes. But if you say there is life for one of those that do not believe, you utter a dangerous lie. If you tell them that Jesus Christ was punished for their sins, and yet they will be lost, you tell a willful falsehood.

 

The ending is certainly a, gut-wrencher to those you are truly looking for answers and bewildered by the weight of sin on their lives.

 

Go home, then, with this thought: " I am by nature so perverse that I will not come unto Christ, and that wicked perversity of my nature is my sin. I deserve to be sent to hell for it." And if the thought does not humble you, the Spirit using it, no other can. This morning I have not preached human nature up, but I have preached it down. God humble us all. Amen.

 

The prayer of,"God humble us all", brings this Scripture to mind and is quite comforting to know that God dwells with those who have a contrite and humble spirit.

 

Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

 

lastinline (where humility abounds)

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Next to grasping the Triune nature of God is the discussion of Arminianism and Calvinism can be tough

 

I cannot dogmatically come down on either extreme view based upon my current understanding of Scripture

 

I believe that we're hopelessly lost and God needs to draw us to Himself otherwise we'd never have a chance

43 But Jesus replied, "Stop complaining about what I said.

44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.

45 As it is written in the Scriptures,˜They will all be taught by God.` Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

46 (Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.) (John 6:43-46 NLT)

 

It's God desire that none would perish yet we have to make a choice or decide whom we will serve

 

9 The Lord isn`t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. (2 Peter 3:9 NLT)

 

I'm also of the belief that God will do everything to bring us to Him even to use adversity to bring us to the end of ourselves

 

I'd probably come down near center and perhaps slightly closer on to the side of Calvin seeing as I believe that once you are truly are saved, that Salvation is secure and that God will do the sanctifying work in us

3 Every time I think of you, I give thanks to my God.

4 Whenever I pray, I make my requests for all of you with joy,

5 for you have been my partners in spreading the Good News about Christ from the time you first heard it until now.

6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. (Philippians 1:3-6 NT)

 

More praying and more study

 

So anak, could you frame how you believe

 

I do not believe you to be a 5 point calvanist nor an arminianist

 

Thanks

[lastinline 0]

'seeking_truth_1' date='Jun 10 2008, 02:24 PM' post='14567'

More praying and more study

 

And, some fasting would make GOOD sense.

 

lastinline

[LTTBT 0]

I'm also of the belief that God will do everything to bring us to Him even to use adversity to bring us to the end of ourselves

 

He does this to save us from ourselves...

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Hey anak...

Where do you come down on the issue?

 

Thanks!

[GoodDay 0]

TTT

[GoodDay 0]

Does the Bible teach Calvanism or is it Calvin himself who taught it?

 

Where does God give us the freedom to pick and choose bits of Scripture as we feel and put it together and call it, our name+"ism."

 

Calvin used "Free will" to distort the Word of God.

 

 

Paul

Edited September 4, 2009 by GoodDay

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

This "debate" started long before Calvin. You need to go all the way back to Augustine and Pelagius.

 

I have a DVD that brings light to this subject. It is very informative.

It is called Amazing Grace: The History & Theology of Calvinism.

I bought it last year, and I have almost finished it.(It's over 4 hours.) Here is a short review and a link to purchase.

If anyone is interested but does not have the cash to purchase, I would be more than happy to lend out my copy of the DVD. Just PM or call. I am in the directory.

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

Review

At last!...a balanced, well-crafted, stimulating (even provocative) video presentation of the biblical faith - with its world and life view - as recovered by the Reformation. It is a must see for all evangelical Christians. Dr. Cortez Cooper, former head of the MNA for the Presbyterian Church in America --Dr. Cortez Cooper, former head of the MNA for the Presbyterian Church in America

 

Product Description

NEWLY EXPANDED WITH FREE 220 PAGE STUDY GUIDE (PDF)

Just what is Calvinism ? Does this teaching make man a deterministic robot and God the author of sin? What about free will? If the church accepts Calvinism, won't evangelism be stifled, perhaps even extinguished? How can we balance God's sovereignty and man's responsibility? What are the differences between historic Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism? Why did men like Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, Whitefield, Edwards and a host of renowned Protestant evangelists deny the Arminian definition of free will and label it heresy? Why did the Roman Catholic Church condemn the Reformed teaching of predestination and election and embrace free will theology? And why do so many Protestants, perhaps unwittingly, agree with Rome on this issue?

 

Amazing Grace - The History and Theology of Calvinism is the first video documentary that answers these and other related questions. This fascinating three-part, four-hour presentation is detailed enough so as to not gloss over the controversy. At the same time, it is broken up into ten Sunday-school-sized sections to make the rich content manageable and accessible for the average viewer.

 

Buy Here.

 

 

Does the Bible teach Calvanism or is it Calvin himself who taught it?

 

Where does God give us the freedom to pick and choose bits of Scripture as we feel and put it together and call it, our name+"ism."

 

Calvin used "Free will" to distort the Word of God.

 

 

Paul

 

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

To understand Calvinism, we must first understand the origins of the "debate".

Basically, it all started when Aurelius Augustine (St. Augustine of Hippo) wrote this prayer.

 

“LORD, give what Thou commandest, and command what Thou wilt.”− Saint Augustine

 

 

Pelagius (a British monk) disagreed.

He said –

1. God would never give a command unless man was capable – of his own

free will and ability – to accomplish it.

2. Man was not overcome by sin to the point where he could do nothing to

satisfy God.

3. No one was contaminated by the Fall, nor were they “born in sin.” A

baby instead was tabular rosa, Latin for a “blank sheet of paper”, and was

therefore perfectly capable of obeying and pleasing God.

 

 

So out of this debate came a question.

Does man need God’s grace in order to stand before Him in righteousness?

 

 

 

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Here's the first error:

 

3. No one was contaminated by the Fall, nor were they "born in sin." A

baby instead was tabular rosa, Latin for a "blank sheet of paper", and was

therefore perfectly capable of obeying and pleasing God.

 

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Romans 3:23 NKJV)

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1John 1:8 NKJV)

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—” (Romans 5:12 NKJV)

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1Corinthians 15:22 NKJV)

“But without faith [it is] impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” (Hebrews 11:6 NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To understand Calvinism, we must first understand the origins of the "debate".

Basically, it all started when Aurelius Augustine (St. Augustine of Hippo) wrote this prayer.

 

"LORD, give what Thou commandest, and command what Thou wilt."− Saint Augustine

 

 

Pelagius (a British monk) disagreed.

He said –

1. God would never give a command unless man was capable – of his own

free will and ability – to accomplish it.

2. Man was not overcome by sin to the point where he could do nothing to

satisfy God.

3. No one was contaminated by the Fall, nor were they "born in sin." A

baby instead was tabular rosa, Latin for a "blank sheet of paper", and was

therefore perfectly capable of obeying and pleasing God.

 

 

So out of this debate came a question.

Does man need God's grace in order to stand before Him in righteousness?

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

Another verse Pelagius must have overlooked is -

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,

And in sin my mother conceived me. Ps 51:5 NASB

 

The "Anathema" of Pelagius is still alive today. If I am born with the ability of pleasing God on my own, then why do I need Jesus?

Or maybe I just need a little "help" to get into heaven.

 

So Pelagianism led to a teaching that "man saved himself by cooperating with the grace of

God, a position known as semi-Pelagianism"

 

Dr. D. James Kennedy: Then came the mediating view of the semi-Pelagian

position which said man was neither well nor dead. In this life man is born sick.

If man is born well, as Pelagius said, all he needs is a little moral guidance in his

life to stay along the path. If man is born sick, he needs help from a physician

and if he will cooperate with his physician then he and the physician can affect a

cure. Augustine said that man today was born dead in trespasses and sin. He

needs to be resurrected, something we are totally incapable of doing. So the

practical result is that if you are a Pelagian, all you need is a teacher.

If you are a semi-Pelagian all you need is a little help from a physician.

And if you are an Augustinian, then you realize that man needs to be resurrected from the dead and that salvation furthermore is entirely of grace.

 

Can you see semi-pelagianism alive today?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the first error:

 

3. No one was contaminated by the Fall, nor were they "born in sin." A

baby instead was tabular rosa, Latin for a "blank sheet of paper", and was

therefore perfectly capable of obeying and pleasing God.

 

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Romans 3:23 NKJV)

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1John 1:8 NKJV)

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—” (Romans 5:12 NKJV)

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1Corinthians 15:22 NKJV)

“But without faith [it is] impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” (Hebrews 11:6 NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To understand Calvinism, we must first understand the origins of the "debate".

Basically, it all started when Aurelius Augustine (St. Augustine of Hippo) wrote this prayer.

 

"LORD, give what Thou commandest, and command what Thou wilt."− Saint Augustine

 

 

Pelagius (a British monk) disagreed.

He said –

1. God would never give a command unless man was capable – of his own

free will and ability – to accomplish it.

2. Man was not overcome by sin to the point where he could do nothing to

satisfy God.

3. No one was contaminated by the Fall, nor were they "born in sin." A

baby instead was tabular rosa, Latin for a "blank sheet of paper", and was

therefore perfectly capable of obeying and pleasing God.

 

 

So out of this debate came a question.

Does man need God's grace in order to stand before Him in righteousness?

 

[TimEfseaff 0]

Does the Bible teach Calvanism or is it Calvin himself who taught it?

 

Where does God give us the freedom to pick and choose bits of Scripture as we feel and put it together and call it, our name+"ism."

 

Calvin used "Free will" to distort the Word of God.

 

 

Paul

 

 

Calvin did not "create" Calvinism. He pointed out to people that the Bible - says what it means & means what it says.

 

The Scripture written in the Bible, is Truth. And, we are to understand what is written in Scripture as, meaning what is written, how it is written.

 

Man is born in sin, and into sin. That man whom God calls (elects) to come to Christ Jesus, will come, and those who are given into the hand of Jesus Christ, will not be lost.

 

In studying this, I can't see where Calvin "distorted" Scripture.

[GoodDay 0]

If we as Christians cannot do anything to change where we spend our eternity why does Scripture tell us to ''hold fast to the Faith," etc..?

 

According to Calvanism, are not babies predestined to either spend an eternity in hell or in Heaven? How would a loving God explain to a innocent child if he was created predestined to hell?

Edited September 12, 2009 by GoodDay

[anakainosis 0]

If we as Christians cannot do anything to change where we spend our eternity why does Scripture tell us to ''hold fast to the Faith," etc..?

 

According to Calvanism, are not babies predestined to either spend an eternity in hell or in Heaven? How would a loving God explain to a innocent child if he was created predestined to hell?

 

Yes, scripture does say work out our salvation and hold fast, etc. From our perspective we must believe and make every effort to make our calling and election a sure thing. Although, what scripture also says is that if we are believing and working we are only doing so by the power and will of God given to us. Nobody receives this power to believe or work based on any previous work or faith of our own. Jesus is the author and perfecter of Faith.

 

Another question that should be asked is why do you believe and other people in your life that you know don't. Is it because you are not persuasive enough in speech to sell them on it? Or has the work of the Spirit not changed their heart? another perspective to this question is that the bible states we are slaves to sin, that is we choose to sin. It is only possible to choose Christ when God has freed us from this bondage by enabling us to choose and believe. People do not believe because God has not revealed Himself to them.

 

In regards to your second statement, Calvinism nor does the Bible teach that some babies are predestined to heaven or hell. What Calvinism and the Bible teach is that sinners go to hell based on their own merit. God does not need to explain to an innocent baby anything, because innocent babies and people go to heaven. People are judged by their works that they do willfully because of their bondage to sin. Babies do not have the capacity to commit sin as we do. Babies that die are judged differently and can even be born again by the Spirit in the womb without the need of a preacher.

 

I hope that I answered your questions adequately.

[GoodDay 0]

If we as Christians cannot do anything to change where we spend our eternity why does Scripture tell us to ''hold fast to the Faith," etc..?

 

According to Calvanism, are not babies predestined to either spend an eternity in hell or in Heaven? How would a loving God explain to a innocent child if he was created predestined to hell?

 

Yes, scripture does say work out our salvation and hold fast, etc. From our perspective we must believe and make every effort to make our calling and election a sure thing. Although, what scripture also says is that if we are believing and working we are only doing so by the power and will of God given to us. Nobody receives this power to believe or work based on any previous work or faith of our own. Jesus is the author and perfecter of Faith.

 

Another question that should be asked is why do you believe and other people in your life that you know don't. Is it because you are not persuasive enough in speech to sell them on it? Or has the work of the Spirit not changed their heart? another perspective to this question is that the bible states we are slaves to sin, that is we choose to sin. It is only possible to choose Christ when God has freed us from this bondage by enabling us to choose and believe. People do not believe because God has not revealed Himself to them.

 

In regards to your second statement, Calvinism nor does the Bible teach that some babies are predestined to heaven or hell. What Calvinism and the Bible teach is that sinners go to hell based on their own merit. God does not need to explain to an innocent baby anything, because innocent babies and people go to heaven. People are judged by their works that they do willfully because of their bondage to sin. Babies do not have the capacity to commit sin as we do. Babies that die are judged differently and can even be born again by the Spirit in the womb without the need of a preacher.

 

I hope that I answered your questions adequately.

 

 

Thanks for the clear answer!

 

I will put some thoughts together later and try to pinpoint the part I have a heard time going along with and perhaps you can add to that as well? I do agree with much of it but I do not understand the part having to do with free-will and people being a "robot" in a sense and having NO say-so or choice in where they end up or where they do not end up. I agree 100% with the innocence of babies and them that have to understanding and therefore are in a different area than others.

 

Paul

 

 

[TimEfseaff 0]

I'm kinda thinking it's a form of knee-jerk reaction, to make the claim that any man would be a "robot", in reference to the idea of predestination v.s. free will.

 

The Bible seems to state clearly that we, man, are slaves/servants our whole lives. Without God, we are slaves to sin. We serve our own flesh, and it's desires. With God, we are His slaves. Our lives are to serve His desires.

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly I tell you that everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin., 35 The slave does not remain in the household forever, but the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed!” (John 8)

 

7That is why the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God. For it refuses to submit to the authority of God's law because it is powerless to do so. 8 Indeed, those who

are under the control of the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8)

 

47 The one who belongs to God listens to the words of God. The reason you

do not listen is because you do not belong to God.” (John 8)

 

 

Apostle Paul wrote that he was a "bond-servant" to Christ. A slave was one who was purchased for a price, then served a term of x amount of years. If that slave, after serving his term, found his master to be of quality (a good master), then he would choose to become a bond-servant. A bond-servant was not sold into slavery, but would choose who his master is. But his status as slave would not change. A slave is a slave.

16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thank God that, though you were once slaves of sin, you became obedient from your hearts to that form of teaching with which you were entrusted! 18 And since you have been freed from sin, you have become slaves of righteousness. (Romans 7)

 

As a "slave", where is your "free will" ? How much free will does a slave have ?

[GoodDay 0]

I'm kinda thinking it's a form of knee-jerk reaction, to make the claim that any man would be a "robot", in reference to the idea of predestination v.s. free will.

 

The Bible seems to state clearly that we, man, are slaves/servants our whole lives. Without God, we are slaves to sin. We serve our own flesh, and it's desires. With God, we are His slaves. Our lives are to serve His desires.

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly I tell you that everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin., 35 The slave does not remain in the household forever, but the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed!” (John 8)

 

7That is why the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God. For it refuses to submit to the authority of God's law because it is powerless to do so. 8 Indeed, those who

are under the control of the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8)

 

47 The one who belongs to God listens to the words of God. The reason you

do not listen is because you do not belong to God.” (John 8)

 

 

Apostle Paul wrote that he was a "bond-servant" to Christ. A slave was one who was purchased for a price, then served a term of x amount of years. If that slave, after serving his term, found his master to be of quality (a good master), then he would choose to become a bond-servant. A bond-servant was not sold into slavery, but would choose who his master is. But his status as slave would not change. A slave is a slave.

16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thank God that, though you were once slaves of sin, you became obedient from your hearts to that form of teaching with which you were entrusted! 18 And since you have been freed from sin, you have become slaves of righteousness. (Romans 7)

 

As a "slave", where is your "free will" ? How much free will does a slave have ?

 

 

Thanks Tim,

 

I guess the main issue or questions comes down to;

Does God create some people with the idea that they will spend an eternity in hell with no chance what-so-ever to make a conscience choice of thier own to accept and believe in Jesus Christ?

[TimEfseaff 0]

Being called by God, our choice to follow ?

 

9 What, then, does this mean? Are we Jews any better off? Not at all! For we have already accused everyone, both Jews and Greeks, of being under the power of sin.

10 As it is written,

“Not even one person is righteous.

11 No one understands.

No one searches for God. (Romans 3)

 

It seems that by this quote from Psalms, that no man chooses, or is even able to choose, by his own power, to follow God.

 

18 While Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers—Simon, who is called Peter, and his brother Andrew. They were throwing a net into the sea because they were fishermen. 19 He said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishermen of people!” 20 So at once they left their nets and followed him. 21 Going on from there he saw two other brothers—James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee repairing their nets. When he called them, 22 they immediately left the boat and their father and followed him. (Matthew 4)

 

Did they have a choice ? Could they, at that time have said, “Sorry Nazarene, we have to fish.” ? It doesn’t seem so. It doesn’t seem there was even any discussion about it, they just followed immediately.

From Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God, (Romans 1:1).

Here we see Paul calling himself “called”. Did he have a choice ?

 

8 And we know that he works all things together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among

many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8)

 

It seems apostle Paul is saying, that God knows who He wants to do His work. That God is doing the choosing, of who will - do His will.

 

 

21 For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, God decided through the nonsense of our preaching to save those who believe. 22 Jews ask for signs, and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified. He is a stumbling block to Jews and nonsense to gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is God's power and God's wisdom. 25 For God's nonsense is wiser than human wisdom, and God's weakness is stronger than human strength. 26 Brothers, think about your own calling. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is nonsense in the world to make the wise feel ashamed. God chose what is weak in the world to make the strong feel ashamed. 28 And God chose what is insignificant in the world, what is despised, what is nothing, in order to destroy what is something, 29 so that no human being may boast in God's presence. 30 It is because of him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who for us has become wisdom from God, as well as our righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written, “The person who boasts must boast in the Lord.” (First Corinthians 1)

 

Is it that hard to accept that God chose you ? Rather than, that you chose God ?

 

[seeking_truth_1 0]

The doctrine of "irresistible grace" seem to fit the bill in this discussion

 

I would add this caveat

 

God is outside of time: Omniscient and omnipresent

 

The problem is trying to get the words to explain this out of the ends of my fingers

 

It''s almost a circular logic issue

 

God picked me because I chose Him but he allowed it so I could chose Him because he knew when He called that I would chose Him because He called me and allowed me to make that choice

 

My heads about ready to explode

[Disciple 0]

God picked me because I chose Him but he allowed it so I could chose Him because he knew when He called that I would chose Him because He called me and allowed me to make that choice

 

My heads about ready to explode

Amen!

 

That means we are close to understanding God. My wife and I were discussing the deity of Christ last night, she had been frustrated before because the scriptures don't spell it out nice and neat like some of the doctrines do. (Just like the Arminian/Calvinist debate.) I came up with some illustrations, but it came down to, "Believe." whatever you read in the Scriptures, believe it. Simple. Abraham believed two contradictory statements, and for it he was righteous before God. He knew that 1) He would have a huge nation through Isaac, and 2) He knew that God wanted him to kill Isaac. Instead of explaining away one or the other, he believed both.

 

Hebrews 11:17-19 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

 

Let us stop arguing the imperfect doctrines that men have put together, calvinism/arminianism they both miss the mark; they are both true in what they assert but wrong in what they deny. Let us be okay with our head spinning, God doesn't seek the intellegent to distill his truth down to the lowest common denominator. He seeks everyone, dummies and smarties, to simply believe everything He says.

[LTTBT 0]

The doctrine of "irresistible grace" seem to fit the bill in this discussion

 

I would add this caveat

 

God is outside of time: Omniscient and omnipresent

 

The problem is trying to get the words to explain this out of the ends of my fingers

 

It''s almost a circular logic issue

 

God picked me because I chose Him but he allowed it so I could chose Him because he knew when He called that I would chose Him because He called me and allowed me to make that choice

 

My heads about ready to explode

 

The weird part.................I understand what you wrote.

 

[GoodDay 0]

God picked me because I chose Him but he allowed it so I could chose Him because he knew when He called that I would chose Him because He called me and allowed me to make that choice

 

My heads about ready to explode

Amen!

 

That means we are close to understanding God. My wife and I were discussing the deity of Christ last night, she had been frustrated before because the scriptures don't spell it out nice and neat like some of the doctrines do. (Just like the Arminian/Calvinist debate.) I came up with some illustrations, but it came down to, "Believe." whatever you read in the Scriptures, believe it. Simple. Abraham believed two contradictory statements, and for it he was righteous before God. He knew that 1) He would have a huge nation through Isaac, and 2) He knew that God wanted him to kill Isaac. Instead of explaining away one or the other, he believed both.

 

Hebrews 11:17-19 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

Let us stop arguing the imperfect doctrines that men have put together, calvinism/arminianism they both miss the mark; they are both true in what they assert but wrong in what they deny. Let us be okay with our head spinning, God doesn't seek the intellegent to distill his truth down to the lowest common denominator. He seeks everyone, dummies and smarties, to simply believe everything He says.

 

Multiple Amens to all the posts above!!

 

I have been shown that two or more can present the same exact Scripture in two or more different ways and have results effecting one person in two or more ways. We all know that God wants to have a personal relationship with each and everyone of us aside from all the creeds and ism's that man puts together.

 

I can see that you all here that post as well as myself "wear" the label of "Christian" boldly and without shame.

 

1 Peter 4:16

Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

 

 

May God exponentally strengthen you and all your families in your stations where ever they are!

God's Word and His Word only brings us closer to Him in a forward movement while mans interjection can move us in a lateral movement.

 

Grip His Word stronger with every breath you take!

 

Constantly take heed to His Call and not to the call of man. Man's call is short lived and Jesus' call lasts an eternity!

 

Your Brother in Christ,

 

Pau Orloff

[TimEfseaff 0]

Everyone is at a different level of growth in their life. Everyone living in a different "season" than the other.

When we read scripture, it will convict us at whatever level we are living.

Not that any one is higher or lower than the other, because each life lived is so different than the other in experiences and learning.

 

I appreciate anyone who questions or debates what I believe. It makes me go search Scripture, and the answers I find always seem to have some new "nugget" of wisdom or some new understanding opened up to me.

 

 

"God picked me because I chose Him but he allowed it so I could chose Him because he knew when He called that I would chose Him because He called me and allowed me to make that choice"

 

 

Seeking, I don't necessarily agree with the content, but that was AWESOME how you wrote that. (can't agree because I don't want head to explode....)

[GoodDay 0]

God picked me because I chose Him but he allowed it so I could chose Him because he knew when He called that I would chose Him because He called me and allowed me to make that choice

 

My heads about ready to explode

 

 

Can you say that 10 times really fast!! ? :-)

[GoodDay 0]

God picked me because I chose Him but he allowed it so I could chose Him because he knew when He called that I would chose Him because He called me and allowed me to make that choice

 

My heads about ready to explode

Amen!

 

That means we are close to understanding God. My wife and I were discussing the deity of Christ last night, she had been frustrated before because the scriptures don't spell it out nice and neat like some of the doctrines do. (Just like the Arminian/Calvinist debate.) I came up with some illustrations, but it came down to, "Believe." whatever you read in the Scriptures, believe it. Simple. Abraham believed two contradictory statements, and for it he was righteous before God. He knew that 1) He would have a huge nation through Isaac, and 2) He knew that God wanted him to kill Isaac. Instead of explaining away one or the other, he believed both.

 

Hebrews 11:17-19 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

Let us stop arguing the imperfect doctrines that men have put together, calvinism/arminianism they both miss the mark; they are both true in what they assert but wrong in what they deny. Let us be okay with our head spinning, God doesn't seek the intellegent to distill his truth down to the lowest common denominator. He seeks everyone, dummies and smarties, to simply believe everything He says.

 

Multiple Amens to all the posts above!!

 

I have been shown that two or more can present the same exact Scripture in two or more different ways and have results effecting one person in two or more ways. We all know that God wants to have a personal relationship with each and everyone of us aside from all the creeds and ism's that man puts together.

 

I can see that you all here that post as well as myself to "wear" the label of "Christian" boldly and without shame.

 

1 Peter 4:16

Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

 

 

May God exponentally strengthen you and all your families in your stations where ever they are!

God's Word and His Word only brings us closer to Him in a forward movement while mans interjection can move us in a lateral movement.

 

Grip His Word stronger with every breath you take!

 

Constantly take heed to His Call and not to the call of man. Man's call is short lived and Jesus' call lasts an eternity!

 

Your Brother in Christ,

 

Pau Orloff

 

 

Wow, blame it on the spell checker!! :-)

 

Paul Orloff~

Edited September 15, 2009 by GoodDay

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

Let us stop arguing the imperfect doctrines that men have put together, calvinism/arminianism they both miss the mark; they are both true in what they assert but wrong in what they deny. Let us be okay with our head spinning, God doesn't seek the intellegent to distill his truth down to the lowest common denominator. He seeks everyone, dummies and smarties, to simply believe everything He says.[/size][/font]

[/color][/size][/font]

I understand your point. I agree and have been guilty in the past of trying to "prove" my Christianity by how much knowledge I possessed.

 

But I do feel it is vital to understand the nature of God. And the THE ARMINIAN/CALVINIST CONTROVERSY is more than just men's views and opinions.

There has never, perhaps, been another crisis of equal importance in church history

in which the opponents have expressed the principles at issue so clearly and

abstractly. The Arian dispute before the Council of Nicea can alone compare with

[the Pelagian Controversy]…” ~ Adolph Harnack, History of Dogma, part 2, book 2

trans. James Miller, 1898/1961, p. 169

Many christians past and present saw that after reaffirming the deity of Jesus at the council of Nicea in 325 A.D., the Arimiian/Calvinist controversy was of next greatest importance for the Christian church.

 

 

God wants us to seek Him.

2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,

But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. Pr 25:2 NASB

 

 

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 NKJV

 

But we must seek Him for His glory and not our own.

 

39 You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me!

John 5:39 The Message

 

 

 

 

I am still learning and studying, but I see Calvinism as Biblically accurate and have not found one point of Calvinism that has contradicted the scriptures.

 

 

 

 

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

Another verse Pelagius must have overlooked is -

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,

And in sin my mother conceived me. Ps 51:5 NASB

 

The "Anathema" of Pelagius is still alive today. If I am born with the ability of pleasing God on my own, then why do I need Jesus?

Or maybe I just need a little "help" to get into heaven.

 

So Pelagianism led to a teaching that "man saved himself by cooperating with the grace of

God, a position known as semi-Pelagianism"

 

Dr. D. James Kennedy: Then came the mediating view of the semi-Pelagian

position which said man was neither well nor dead. In this life man is born sick.

If man is born well, as Pelagius said, all he needs is a little moral guidance in his

life to stay along the path. If man is born sick, he needs help from a physician

and if he will cooperate with his physician then he and the physician can affect a

cure. Augustine said that man today was born dead in trespasses and sin. He

needs to be resurrected, something we are totally incapable of doing. So the

practical result is that if you are a Pelagian, all you need is a teacher.

If you are a semi-Pelagian all you need is a little help from a physician.

And if you are an Augustinian, then you realize that man needs to be resurrected from the dead and that salvation furthermore is entirely of grace.

 

Can you see semi-pelagianism alive today?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the first error:

 

3. No one was contaminated by the Fall, nor were they "born in sin." A

baby instead was tabular rosa, Latin for a "blank sheet of paper", and was

therefore perfectly capable of obeying and pleasing God.

 

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Romans 3:23 NKJV)

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1John 1:8 NKJV)

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—” (Romans 5:12 NKJV)

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1Corinthians 15:22 NKJV)

“But without faith [it is] impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” (Hebrews 11:6 NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To understand Calvinism, we must first understand the origins of the "debate".

Basically, it all started when Aurelius Augustine (St. Augustine of Hippo) wrote this prayer.

 

"LORD, give what Thou commandest, and command what Thou wilt."− Saint Augustine

 

 

Pelagius (a British monk) disagreed.

He said –

1. God would never give a command unless man was capable – of his own

free will and ability – to accomplish it.

2. Man was not overcome by sin to the point where he could do nothing to

satisfy God.

3. No one was contaminated by the Fall, nor were they "born in sin." A

baby instead was tabular rosa, Latin for a "blank sheet of paper", and was

therefore perfectly capable of obeying and pleasing God.

 

 

So out of this debate came a question.

Does man need God's grace in order to stand before Him in righteousness?

 

 

Dr. R.C. Sproul - The most significant issue that any human being will ever face is the

question, “How can I escape the judgment of God?”

30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Acts 16:30

NASB95

 

 

Here is an example of the results of Arminianism-

 

This is a two part question.

 

The first part of the questions is-

If I asked you -

How can a sinner be saved from the judgment of God?

what would your response be?

 

Here are some potential responses-

 

· By the grace of God. Through the sacrifice for sins that was

offered upon the cross.

or

· Well, I think the answer to that is really what makes Christianity

unique among world religions. Because with any other system of

belief, systems that understand that there is a fundamental

problem with man, what we would call sin, there is also a system

of works by which the practitioner needs to either prove himself

or redeem himself through his works, his actions. And

Christianity alone is the one that basically says that there’s

nothing we can do about it. We’re too far gone and only God can

save us at that point.

or

· The apostle Paul probably laid it out best in Ephesians when he

stated that it’s by grace through faith that we’re saved and that

it’s not by ourselves, that its Christ who did it. He paid the price

so that no man should boast in the works that are done.

 

OK, but how does that work? How exactly does a person get

saved?

Here are some more various responses -

· You have to believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. In

other words, that He was crucified on the cross and rose again

and paid the price for our sins and by acknowledging Him as

Lord.

and

· Well, Jesus died for everyone’s sins. He paid the full price to

redeem us from the judgment that awaits our disobedience,

which is hell. He extends the hand of salvation to everyone and

all we need to do is take it. Many don’t, but many do. And those

that do are saved.

and

· You know, to answer that, I like what our pastor teaches on that.

He says that salvation is like a legal declaration, that God is the

judge and He’s the one that declares us righteous before Him.

Satan is like the accusing attorney, Jesus is the defense attorney.

Not only does Jesus defend us, but he also posts the bail and

pays the fine. So we’re like the jury in that respect and we,

depending on who we choose, will determine our eternal destiny.

 

The second part of the question would be -

“Who gets the glory in this process of

redeeming man from his sins and pardoning him from the judgment those sins

deserve?”

 

Here are some more potential responses -

· 100% God.

and

· It’s God and God alone.

and

· Who else but God? Jesus is the only way. He’s the only

sacrifice for sins.

 

If we were to survey the over one billion people in the world who call themselves

Christians, when we got down to the nitty-gritty of their beliefs concerning these two

vital questions, we’d likely find more than a little confusion. And while most would

probably answer the second question correctly, that God alone gets the glory, more often

than not this response wouldn’t be theologically consistent with the details of their first answer.

 

How did you answer the first question? Did your answers contradict?

How would the majority of the molokan brotherhood answer?

(Some parts taken from "Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism Study guide and workbook")

 

Kevin Nazaroff

Edited September 16, 2009 by KevinPolyaNazaroff

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

To understand Calvinism, we must first understand the origins of the "debate".

Basically, it all started when Aurelius Augustine (St. Augustine of Hippo) wrote this prayer.

 

"LORD, give what Thou commandest, and command what Thou wilt."− Saint Augustine

 

 

Pelagius (a British monk) disagreed.

He said –

1. God would never give a command unless man was capable – of his own

free will and ability – to accomplish it.

2. Man was not overcome by sin to the point where he could do nothing to

satisfy God.

3. No one was contaminated by the Fall, nor were they "born in sin." A

baby instead was tabular rosa, Latin for a "blank sheet of paper", and was

therefore perfectly capable of obeying and pleasing God.

 

 

So out of this debate came a question.

Does man need God's grace in order to stand before Him in righteousness?

 

Another verse Pelagius must have overlooked is -

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,

And in sin my mother conceived me. Ps 51:5 NASB

 

The "Anathema" of Pelagius is still alive today. If I am born with the ability of pleasing God on my own, then why do I need Jesus?

Or maybe I just need a little "help" to get into heaven.

 

So Pelagianism led to a teaching that "man saved himself by cooperating with the grace of

God, a position known as semi-Pelagianism"

 

Dr. D. James Kennedy: Then came the mediating view of the semi-Pelagian

position which said man was neither well nor dead. In this life man is born sick.

If man is born well, as Pelagius said, all he needs is a little moral guidance in his

life to stay along the path. If man is born sick, he needs help from a physician

and if he will cooperate with his physician then he and the physician can affect a

cure. Augustine said that man today was born dead in trespasses and sin. He

needs to be resurrected, something we are totally incapable of doing. So the

practical result is that if you are a Pelagian, all you need is a teacher.

If you are a semi-Pelagian all you need is a little help from a physician.

And if you are an Augustinian, then you realize that man needs to be resurrected from the dead and that salvation furthermore is entirely of grace.

 

Can you see semi-pelagianism alive today?

 

The debate between Augustine and Pelagius can be linked all the way through the middle ages into the Reformation. It is this debate between Augustine and Pelagius that drove the debate between Luther and Erasmus and later developed the Arminianism/Calvinism debate.

 

To review Augustine...

Dr Tom Ascol: Augustine was recognizing that all of life is grace; that we live

and breathe and do what we do because God enables us to be that way and live

that way. So by acknowledging our utter dependence on God, he asks for the

grace and then acknowledges: “Command whatever you will and then give the

grace to do what you command.”...You have commanded us to worship, LORD

grant us the ability to worship. You have commanded us to pray, grant us the

ability to pray. You have commanded us to evangelize, grant us the ability to

evangelize. And every real Christian, at his best moment, would acknowledge

the rightness of both of those requests. Because when we pray we’re asking God

to do for us what we can’t do for ourselves.

Dr. Thomas Nettles: In other words we are dependent upon the grace God gives

us to accomplish His commands

 

To review Pelagius...

Dr. Thomas Nettles: Pelagius thought this made God seem unjust and put Him

in a bad light. He also thought it was an affront to human nature.

Dr Tom Ascol: Pelagius was basically a moralist. He believed that man had not been so corrupted that he could not be perfected in this life. The prayer that God would have to grant something to us for us to perform what He required to him was blasphemous. What we need is simply the act of our wills and the getting our lives together to pursue the things that God had really commanded us to do. So Pelagius did not see life as being a matter of grace and

only grace. For him Christianity was basically moralism. Man could do it! So you don’t need to pray for God to grant you that which you already have the ability to perform.

 

Only sinners need a savior. And according to Pelagius sin was not inevitable. In

fact, he believed and taught that there were many who had never committed a

single sin.

He asserted that death was a natural occurrence even to Adam and that Adam

would have eventually died even if he had never sinned… Pelagius made

salvation by grace through faith unnecessary.

Dr. D. James Kennedy: If Pelagius was right and man today is born in the same

way Adam was created (sinless and immortal), then we don’t need Christ. We don't need a savior.

 

So in 412 A.D. the council of Carthage condemned Pelagius and his heresy, saying “Whosoever says, that Adam was created mortal, and would, even without sin, have died by natural necessity, let him be anathema.”

But despite the decision of this council and the clear truths of scripture, the Bishop of Rome, Zosimus, sided with Pelagius.

 

Philip Schaff says of this -“This temporary favor of the bishop of Rome towards the Pelagian heresy is a significant presage of the indulgence of

later popes for Pelagianizing tendencies.”

 

It was these “pelagianizing tendencies” advocated by the Bishop of Rome that

allowed for the later development of the works righteousness in the Roman Catholic belief system.

 

As the church continued into the Middle Ages and the bishop of Rome became

the so-called “visible head of the church,” these “Pelagianizing tendencies”

metastasized and began to spread like a cancer. By the time of the Reformation,

Rome was teaching that man saved himself by cooperating with the grace of

God, a position known as semi-Pelagianism.

 

(Some of these quotes were taken in part from Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvanism Study Guide and workbook)

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

Next up...The Reformation - Erasmus vs. Luther

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

Free will.

Everybody wants free will, even Christians.

 

I wonder why it is so important for us to hold onto our own free will?

Does God not want us to conform to His will?

 

I actually think that free will is a form of rebellion that exists in the heart of all men.

The evil heart still wants to have some control.

 

Some people say, "God does not want us to be robots."

 

Well, what does God want us to be?

Does God leave it up to us and our own free will in regards to living the Christian life?

 

In a way, Scripture says that God does want to brainwash us and program us like a robot!

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Ro 12:2 KJV

 

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ro 8:27-30 KJV

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here are some interesting qoutes and information on Martin Luther and Desiderius Erasmus...

 

 

Desiderius Erasmus (1466-1536) was a humanist and a Catholic theologian.

He kept the idea of "free will" alive and thriving in the Roman Catholic church.

Although Erasmus was somewhat critical of the Roman church, Erasmus was committed to reforming the Catholic church from within.

And one of the Catholic doctrines he held onto and fought for was "free will"

 

On the other hand, Martin Luther (1483-1546) taught that salvation was a free gift of God, apart from the authority of the pope and bishops.

For his unwavering stance, he was excommunicated by Pope Leo X.

 

Erasmus said his book "Diatribe on the Will", that man has the ability to initiate the relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Man has the ability within himself to believe and through faith then access all that goes with faith in justification and reconciliation with God.

Basically, man and God work together on his salvation.

 

Luther said in his book "On the Bondage of the Will", that salvation is impossible apart from the exclusive work of God's grace.

Luther said that to be born again and salvation are two different things.

He said that fallen man does not have faith in order to be born again, but that man is born again by the Spirit and the Word, and as a result, has faith.

 

 

 

 

 

As a result of Luther's affirmation of the biblical teaching of God's sovereignty in salvation, and also the growing reformation;

the Catholic church responded with this statement from the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent -

"If anyone says that after the sin of Adam man's free will was lost and destroyed...let him be anathema"

 

Thus, the Catholic church acknowledged and continued the semi-Pelagian doctrine of "free will".

 

 

 

 

 

Luther said this of free will -

"If any man doth ascribe ought of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright"

(as quoted by Spurgeon)

 

 

 

R.C. Sproul said the heart of this debate is in "soli Deo gloria", which means "to God alone goes the glory".

 

Free will claims some of the glory, but historic Calvinism gives all the glory to God, and God alone.

 

 

 

R.C. Sproul Jr. said -

the semi-Pelagian free will gospel is like taking a blind man to an art

auction and then offering to purchase for him the painting he considers to be the most

beautiful. This, of course, would be absurd. The blind man must first be given new eyes

– a feat he can not accomplish by simply willing himself to see.

 

Quotes taken from-

Amazing Grace - The History & Theology of Calvinism

 

Comments between quotes are mine (Kevin Nazaroff)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

Even if what you said about MGR was true, which it is not, it would not be any better than the Calvinism teachings some of you follow, and maybe without even knowing it. Read up on the guy. Hundreds of innocent people were killed and tortured in the name of Christ when Calvin was alive....just because they wouldn't partake of his teachings.

 

Calviniaianansm this, blah blah yada yada.

Here is a good example of the misunderstanding of Calvinism.

 

Calvinism has nothing to do with John Calvin.

Again, very important....Calvinism has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with John Calvin.

 

Calvinism has everything to do with the sovereignty of God.

 

So, whatever you want to call it, it does not matter.

It is the sovereignty of God that matters.

 

God is in control, not man.

It is God's way, not man's way.

God's will be done, not man's will.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Mt 6:10 KJV

 

35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

Ps 119:35 KJV

 

And to end this short post, John Calvin did not murder anybody.

Heretics were dealt with differently back then, and the established Church had a lot to do with the killings of Michael Serveto (Servetus) and others.

Calvin handed heretics over to the church.

The church was in charge of the law and civil order.

 

The mistakes of John Calvin are evident.

But the sovereignty of God is forever.

 

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Agreed

 

It's not about a man

 

If someone knows their Bible this should be a non-issue

[Guest BibleStudent]

The manner you word your post applying to a similar situation: The Jews did not kill Jesus, they just delivered the heretic (as they understood Jesus) to the Romans (the civil authority) for execution.

 

Your concept of the sovereignty of God reminds me of the words of the Pope who said to the butchers of the inquisition: Kill them all, God will save His own.

 

In reality, Michael Servetus contained more truth of God than John Calvin. John Calvin wanted Servetus out of the way because Servetus was anti-trinitarian and becoming too influential.

 

Who made John Calvin judge and jury of Sevetus being a heretic and hand Servetus to the civil authorities for execution? The established church followed the dictates of its leader, all of them have his and the blood on many on their hands. The 30 Year Religious War of central Europe occurred soon after, what branch of Christendom would have supremacy and hegemony. Politics and power and control at any price.

 

Rev 18:24 And upon her (the prostitute Christian church) was found the blood of prophets and saints and all those killed on the earth.

 

And to end this short post, John Calvin did not murder anybody.

Heretics were dealt with differently back then, and the established Church had a lot to do with the killings of Michael Serveto (Servetus) and others.

Calvin handed heretics over to the church.

The church was in charge of the law and civil order.

 

The mistakes of John Calvin are evident.

But the sovereignty of God is forever.

Kevin Nazaroff

 

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

The manner you word your post applying to a similar situation: The Jews did not kill Jesus, they just delivered the heretic (as they understood Jesus) to the Romans (the civil authority) for execution.

I know it sounds like I was defending Calvin.

I am not, and God will judge Calvin justly.

 

All I am saying, is there is more to the story than what was being portrayed.

 

After Calvin's death, one of his friends attempted to change the method of dealing with heretics.

 

I attempted to read and study into it, but at this point, I have neither the time or interest to go that much into it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your concept of the sovereignty of God reminds me of the words of the Pope who said to the butchers of the inquisition: Kill them all, God will save His own.

The sovereignty of God is not my concept.

I am attempting to take the whole of scripture and understand and know the character of God as much as I can.

 

How do you view this?

I know it is a broad question, but do you have any insight to this issue?

 

Maybe start with the death of Jesus.

Did Jesus die for everybody?

Was Jesus punished for the sins of the people who are going to hell?

Was punishment paid twice for those sinners?

 

 

Kevin Nazaroff

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

I guess there were no takers to the question, "Did Jesus die for everybody?"

God loved the whole world, yes.

But did Jesus come to save the whole world?

If He did, did He fail?

Can the people in hell blame God for not giving them enough free will?

If free will were true, what "success rate" does Jesus have going for Himself?

 

Did Jesus die for everybody?

 

 

If Jesus died for everybody, why are some still going to hell?

Is the blood of Jesus not strong enough to save some people?

 

Also, why do some people have a free will that allows them to "choose" God.

Is free will given out in different measure?

Do some people have more or less free will then others?

If that were true, did God decide to give free will in different measure?

If He did give out free will in different measure, did He not know that if He gave some people too much or too little, that that person would not be able to make a "decision" for Christ?

Is that fair?

 

4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,

Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Pr 16:4 NASB

 

The more I find out about the Sovereignty of God, I find less and less to boast about.

 

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

 

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

The Canons of the Council of Orange 529 AD

 

CANON 7.

If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

 

 

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

"soli Deo gloria" means "to God alone goes the glory"

 

 

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Isaiah 43:11–13 AV

 

 

8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Psalm 3:8 AV

 

 

[stevepiv 0]

Some things to consider:

 

IT IS GOD WHO:

- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65).

- creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10).

- appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48).

- works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).

...- chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4).

- chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14).

- grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29).

- grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26).

- calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9).

- causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3).

- predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30).

- predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5).

- predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).

- makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

 

IT IS MAN WHO:

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).

- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).

- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).

- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).

- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).

- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).

- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).

- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).