Chuck Smith Is Mis-informed

seeking_truth_1 · January 20, 2010

On the January 19th show "Pastors Perspective" on KWVE a caller identifying themself as "Steve" asked if molokanism is a cult

"Steve" also mentioned he was "born into" a religion called "molokan christians"

"Steve" also claimed that he grew up in a Calvary Chapel Church

I believe that perhaps "Steve" was not being honest

It seems odd to me for someone who has been under solid Bible teaching since childhood would have any question as to molokanism being a cult nor would they say they were "born into" the "molokan religion"

I have a suspicion this "Steve" may not really attend a Bible only teaching Church but perhaps is seeking after the Truth regarding a failed religion of men (molokanism)

From earlier in the program the hosts of the show identified certain characteristics of a cult:

1) Claiming to have "special" knowledge NO ONE else has

2) Denying the Deity of Jesus - Making Him less than God

3) Failure to recognize the Tri-Hypostasis

4) Strong emphasis on works based salvation

5) Very legalistic

Then Chuck went on to say that molokanism is not a cult

He obviously does not know the core tenets of molokanism

"Steve" if you have real questions about molokanism, there are people willing to help you

Register on the site and you will eventually get PM privileges

Speak to stevepiv or GoodDay...they can give you Biblical basis for molokanism being a cult

More importantly they can point to the Biblical Jesus and His offer of Salvation

seeking_truth_1 · January 20, 2010

Here's the audio clip

Definition of a cult to 3:30

"steve" is located at 3:30 into the track

molokan2.mp3

January 21, 2010

If molokanism is a cult why does stevepiv and lastinline attend that cult for worship?

Speak to stevepiv or GoodDay...they can give you Biblical basis for molokanism being a cult

seeking_truth_1 · January 21, 2010

That's a good question

I do not agree with the decision of making a molokan "church" your home "church"

That is no place for a Christian to regularly attend because there's no Spiritual nourishment

I had this dialog with someone the other day about exactly that

Sporadically attending a molokan"church" should be viewed as a ministry opportunity much like going on a short term missions trip to a pagan nation

You don't go with the intent of joining in with their praactices but to point them to the Way, Truth and Life

Once that is done you return to your "Home Church"...

What I mean by "Home Church" is a Biblio-Centric Christian Church that teaches the Word not the religion of men

Both of the individuals mentioned should be going to a REAL Church to get fed, encouraged supported etc...

You cannot give what you don't have

Here's A Bit More On The Subject - Click Here

If molokanism is a cult why does stevepiv and lastinline attend that cult for worship?

Speak to stevepiv or GoodDay...they can give you Biblical basis for molokanism being a cult

LTTBT · January 22, 2010

If molokanism is a cult why does stevepiv and lastinline attend that cult for worship?

Speak to stevepiv or GoodDay...they can give you Biblical basis for molokanism being a cult

If Molokinism is a cult why is the name of this site Molokan .net?

It it deception or marketing? I have asked this question many times, but no answer.

GoodDay · January 22, 2010

If molokanism is a cult why does stevepiv and lastinline attend that cult for worship?

Speak to stevepiv or GoodDay...they can give you Biblical basis for molokanism being a cult

If Molokinism is a cult why is the name of this site Molokan .net?

It it deception or marketing? I have asked this question many times, but no answer.

For the record, I did not ask Seeking to include my name in that comment, but at the same time I did not ask him to remove it.

Look at Seekings signature and you will see three types of Molokans. The third one being a cult and I totally agree with him on that. I know he knows a lot of Christian Molokans and love them as he does know about cultist Molokanism and prays for them.

I pray that them that are not sure, pray, and do a read on cults and see where you stand. You do not want to be on the cult side of the fence. As Seeking said many Molokans go to doings to witness so that them lost inside will at least see the truth some where.

One easy sign of a cult, is when the leaders do not allow you to do "outside" studies about Jesus Christ.

I find a huge irony in listinging to Chuch Smith on the MP3. The man and Calvary that so many cultist Molokans fear because of exposure is actually sticking up for them as being a Christian group. What I take from that is that he knows the history of the Molokans a people that had a first love of Jesus Christ, and now seeing a group who for the most part is in love with the traditions on our forefathers rather than the True Love of Jesus Christ.

Paul W. Orloff

January 22, 2010

//It seems odd to me for someone who has been under solid Bible teaching since childhood would have any question as to molokanism being a cult nor would they say they were "born into" the "molokan religion"//

okay first of all everybody molokan or not questions if they should be what they are. if they dont how are they supposed to chose to keep going or fall? its part of a growing process that i believe everyone goes through, it makes them a stronger person.

//I have a suspicion this "Steve" may not really attend a Bible only teaching Church but perhaps is seeking after the Truth regarding a failed religion of men (molokanism)//

calvery chapel IS a bible teaching church actually, in fact they go through books of the Bible and explain it so you can grow. and if Molokanism is truely failed... how are there still believers who practice it? if its failed why are there such strong believers in it? it may have failed you, or not fit up to your standards (groups 2 and 3), and dont get me wrong i can go and name plenty wrong with it but if you only focusing on the negative things how can you see the good? you can do it for christianity too if you tried. you could say there are to many guidelines, how can we believe without seeing, etc. but we dont.

//Register on the site and you will eventually get PM privileges//

haha really/? why cant he just call them or something instead of registering?

actually sorry but you dont know the full story of why he asked what he did, and you never will. to me it seems like youre just trying to put pastor chuck and steven down, because they dont see how you do. and if your not. then youre definately not loveing your neighbors, no matter how wrong you think these people are, you still should love them and not name call.

LTTBT · January 22, 2010

On the January 19th show "Pastors Perspective" on KWVE a caller identifying themself as "Steve" asked if molokanism is a cult

"Steve" also mentioned he was "born into" a religion called "molokan christians"

"Steve" also claimed that he grew up in a Calvary Chapel Church

I believe that perhaps "Steve" was not being honest

It seems odd to me for someone who has been under solid Bible teaching since childhood would have any question as to molokanism being a cult nor would they say they were "born into" the "molokan religion"

I have a suspicion this "Steve" may not really attend a Bible only teaching Church but perhaps is seeking after the Truth regarding a failed religion of men (molokanism)

From earlier in the program the hosts of the show identified certain characteristics of a cult:

1) Claiming to have "special" knowledge NO ONE else has

2) Denying the Deity of Jesus - Making Him less than God

3) Failure to recognize the Tri-Hypostasis

4) Strong emphasis on works based salvation

5) Very legalistic

Then Chuck went on to say that molokanism is not a cult

He obviously does not know the core tenets of molokanism

"Steve" if you have real questions about molokanism, there are people willing to help you

Register on the site and you will eventually get PM privileges

Speak to stevepiv or GoodDay...they can give you Biblical basis for molokanism being a cult

More importantly they can point to the Biblical Jesus and His offer of Salvation

You are mis-informed about the caller. If you knew that person you wouldn't write what you did.

But for your lack of information, I won't pass judgement on you either........

seeking_truth_1 · January 22, 2010

I may be incorrect regarding that individual but it does seem odd they do not know that molokonism is a cult seeing as they have been hearing the Truth for such a long time

It is possible they have not done the research regarding the heretical tenets of molokanism and simply do not know the difference

It just seemed odd to call it "molokan christianity"

Someone who is a Christian AND knows the heretical tenets of molokanism would not, or at the very least should not, call it that

When I first dialoged with FV, I thought he was a Christian until I started asking pointed questions and found out he's far from the Truth

As to Chuck Smith, he's simply misinformed

You are mis-informed about the caller. If you knew that person you wouldn't write what you did.
But for your lack of information, I won't pass judgement on you either........

January 22, 2010

I wanted to share a few thoughts...

It seems that in this day and age, many are all to willing to run away from their life and find something better on the other side of the fence. I'm talking about religion and faith...the people we were born into. The bible mentions that we are to stay within our own tribe. I see so many people looking into other denominations in order to feel spiritually fulfilled.

In the meantime, nothing is being done to make positive change within our own tribe or people if you will. Our people have an identity. This identity was won by ancestors that perished so that they and future generations of their families could worship freely in Jesus Christ. These are our ancestors, people who laid a foundation and path to redemption through Christ for us. If we ignore this fact and simply give up on our own people and try to find spirituality out in the world, what are we left with?

The answer is nothing. We erase our history and the beginnings of our people...the Molokans. We have a very special tie to Christ, as our people were called to Him during some of the toughest times of religious persecution in the history of the world. That created a special bond between our people and God, because God saw what was happening to the Molokans and took them...those who would listen, out of Russia and put us in a country that allowed freedom to worship how we saw fit.

If we ignore this and try to find greener pastures, this will only spell the end of Molokans. In fact, there is an exodus of Molokans now...those wanting something supposedly better.

I would urge these people to not turn away from their roots and hold firm until the end. God tells us to persevere until the end. There will always be hard times physically and spiritually, but the answer is not to travel the 4 corners of the earth searching for salvation, when it lies within your grasp here with the Molokan people...your people.

The kingdom of God is within you. You will not find it out in the world of false Christianity. If you never search within yourself, you are looking in the wrong places.

God Bless.

Mark Volkoff

seeking_truth_1 · January 22, 2010

//It seems odd to me for someone who has been under solid Bible teaching since childhood would have any question as to molokanism being a cult nor would they say they were "born into" the "molokan religion"//

okay first of all everybody molokan or not questions if they should be what they are. if they dont how are they supposed to chose to keep going or fall? its part of a growing process that i believe everyone goes through, it makes them a stronger person.

Why would they question it if they know the Truth

Molokanism is not the Truth but a lie

It has nothing to do with maturity or "growing"

There are plenty of molokan "elders" in their 60's or 70's that still teach lies

It has nothing to do with age

The Lord knows and call His own to himself

//I have a suspicion this "Steve" may not really attend a Bible only teaching Church but perhaps is seeking after the Truth regarding a failed religion of men
(molokanism)//

calvery chapel IS a bible teaching church actually, in fact they go through books of the Bible and explain it so you can grow. and if Molokanism is truely failed... how are there still believers who practice it? if its failed why are there such strong believers in it? it may have failed you, or not fit up to your standards (groups 2 and 3), and dont get me wrong i can go and name plenty wrong with it but if you only focusing on the negative things how can you see the good? you can do it for christianity too if you tried. you could say there are to many guidelines, how can we believe without seeing, etc. but we dont.

Agreed. Calvary Chapel does teach the Bible through and through...Their doctrine is Biblio-centric and I see NO issue with them as a whole. as to molokansim being validated because there are people still there is NONSENSE

The mormon "church" as well as muslim mosques are full too but it does not mean they are correct

You say Christianity

Please define what that means to you using Scripture (The Bible)

//Register on the site and you will eventually get PM privileges//

haha really/? why cant he just call them or something instead of registering?

actually sorry but you dont know the full story of why he asked what he did, and you never will. to me it seems like youre just trying to put pastor chuck and steven down, because they dont see how you do. and if your not. then youre definately not loveing your neighbors, no matter how wrong you think these people are, you still should love them and not name call.

I guess he could call them...It was just a suggestion if he didn't have a phone number.

Not putting anyone down...There were statements made out of ignorance about the Truth regarding molokanism

Love can also includes correction

If a bridge was out and I saw someone heading for a cliff I would try and warn them...Wouldn't you?

seeking_truth_1 · January 22, 2010

Sorry Paul if I dragged you into something...

I figured you might be more approachable seeing as I'm so "anti-molokan" if someone was looking for Biblical answers

Mea Culpa

If molokanism is a cult why does stevepiv and lastinline attend that cult for worship?

Speak to stevepiv or GoodDay...they can give you Biblical basis for molokanism being a cult

If Molokinism is a cult why is the name of this site Molokan .net?

It it deception or marketing? I have asked this question many times, but no answer.

For the record, I did not ask Seeking to include my name in that comment, but at the same time I did not ask him to remove it.

Look at Seekings signature and you will see three types of Molokans. The third one being a cult and I totally agree with him on that. I know he knows a lot of Christian Molokans and love them as he does know about cultist Molokanism and prays for them.

I pray that them that are not sure, pray, and do a read on cults and see where you stand. You do not want to be on the cult side of the fence. As Seeking said many Molokans go to doings to witness so that them lost inside will at least see the truth some where.

One easy sign of a cult, is when the leaders do not allow you to do "outside" studies about Jesus Christ.

I find a huge irony in listinging to Chuch Smith on the MP3. The man and Calvary that so many cultist Molokans fear because of exposure is actually sticking up for them as being a Christian group. What I take from that is that he knows the history of the Molokans a people that had a first love of Jesus Christ, and now seeing a group who for the most part is in love with the traditions on our forefathers rather than the True Love of Jesus Christ.

Paul W. Orloff

LTTBT · January 22, 2010

What I mean by "Home Church" is a Biblio-Centric Christian Church that teaches the Word not the religion of men

Both of the individuals mentioned should be going to a REAL Church to get fed, encouraged supported etc...

The "caller"does in fact go to several bible only teaching fellowships...

You haven't answered my question about the naming of this site?

By your definition this is a cult site by name..........

seeking_truth_1 · January 22, 2010

Who is Jesus Christ to you according to Scripture?

How is Salvation Secured?

Is the Bible the inerrant word of God?

This perpetuated notion that molokan forefathers somehow made it possible for russians to become Christians is nonsense

You are not born into ANYTHING other than familial and possible social connectivity

You are not born into Christianity

You say molokan "tribe"...What tribe are you referring to?

One of the 12 tribes of Israel?

Which tribe are you from?

You somehow believe that if you are outside molokanism you are devoid of the Truth as found in Scripture and are "in the world"

Please explain what this molokan exclusive "truth" is

People are not leaving because they are turning their back to the "truth" but rather to a lie

Teach the Bible within the molokan "church"

Teach about who Jesus is Biblically and how Salvation is Biblically secured

Teach that apart from Jesus and His FREE offer of Salvation no amount of religion will help you see Heaven

Teach the people there is NO SUCH THING as "ne-nash" based upon race or ethnicity

If you did this, you would not have people leaving

There is NO Salvation found in molokanism and "your people"

There IS Salvation found here

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

That name is Jesus not molokanism

I wanted to share a few thoughts...

It seems that in this day and age, many are all to willing to run away from their life and find something better on the other side of the fence. I'm talking about religion and faith...the people we were born into. The bible mentions that we are to stay within our own tribe. I see so many people looking into other denominations in order to feel spiritually fulfilled.

In the meantime, nothing is being done to make positive change within our own tribe or people if you will. Our people have an identity. This identity was won by ancestors that perished so that they and future generations of their families could worship freely in Jesus Christ. These are our ancestors, people who laid a foundation and path to redemption through Christ for us. If we ignore this fact and simply give up on our own people and try to find spirituality out in the world, what are we left with?

The answer is nothing. We erase our history and the beginnings of our people...the Molokans. We have a very special tie to Christ, as our people were called to Him during some of the toughest times of religious persecution in the history of the world. That created a special bond between our people and God, because God saw what was happening to the Molokans and took them...those who would listen, out of Russia and put us in a country that allowed freedom to worship how we saw fit.

If we ignore this and try to find greener pastures, this will only spell the end of Molokans. In fact, there is an exodus of Molokans now...those wanting something supposedly better.

I would urge these people to not turn away from their roots and hold firm until the end. God tells us to persevere until the end. There will always be hard times physically and spiritually, but the answer is not to travel the 4 corners of the earth searching for salvation, when it lies within your grasp here with the Molokan people...your people.

The kingdom of God is within you. You will not find it out in the world of false Christianity. If you never search within yourself, you are looking in the wrong places.

God Bless.

Mark Volkoff

seeking_truth_1 · January 22, 2010

This is not a church nor to my knowledge does this site advocate the cult of molokanism

Based upon the posts I've read here many people are not in support of the cult of molokanism

Perhaps you could suggest an alternate name that would make you happy

What I mean by "Home Church" is a Biblio-Centric Christian Church that teaches the Word not the religion of men

Both of the individuals mentioned should be going to a REAL Church to get fed, encouraged supported etc...

The "caller"does in fact go to several bible only teaching fellowships...

You haven't answered my question about the naming of this site?

By your definition this is a cult site by name..........

LTTBT · January 22, 2010

This is not a church nor to my knowledge does this site advocate the cult of molokanism

Based upon the posts I've read here many people are not in support of the cult of molokanism

Perhaps you could suggest an alternate name that would make you happy

What I mean by "Home Church" is a Biblio-Centric Christian Church that teaches the Word not the religion of men

Both of the individuals mentioned should be going to a REAL Church to get fed, encouraged supported etc...

The "caller"does in fact go to several bible only teaching fellowships...

You haven't answered my question about the naming of this site?

By your definition this is a cult site by name..........

Why did you chose the name Molokan for the site?

LTTBT · January 22, 2010

Perhaps you could suggest an alternate name that would make you happy

Yes I could. Why don't you have a "name the site" contest?

I don't think my happiness is high on your bucket list :>)

seeking_truth_1 · January 22, 2010

lol

Perhaps you could suggest an alternate name that would make you happy

Yes I could. Why don't you have a "name the site" contest?

I don't think my happiness is high on your bucket list :>)

GoodDay · January 23, 2010

I wanted to share a few thoughts...

It seems that in this day and age, many are all to willing to run away from their life and find something better on the other side of the fence. I'm talking about religion and faith...the people we were born into. The bible mentions that we are to stay within our own tribe. I see so many people looking into other denominations in order to feel spiritually fulfilled.

In the meantime, nothing is being done to make positive change within our own tribe or people if you will. Our people have an identity. This identity was won by ancestors that perished so that they and future generations of their families could worship freely in Jesus Christ. These are our ancestors, people who laid a foundation and path to redemption through Christ for us. If we ignore this fact and simply give up on our own people and try to find spirituality out in the world, what are we left with?

The answer is nothing. We erase our history and the beginnings of our people...the Molokai's. We have a very special tie to Christ, as our people were called to Him during some of the toughest times of religious persecution in the history of the world. That created a special bond between our people and God, because God saw what was happening to the Molokans and took them...those who would listen, out of Russia and put us in a country that allowed freedom to worship how we saw fit.

If we ignore this and try to find greener pastures, this will only spell the end of Molokans. In fact, there is an exodus of Molokans now...those wanting something supposedly better.

I would urge these people to not turn away from their roots and hold firm until the end. God tells us to persevere until the end. There will always be hard times physically and spiritually, but the answer is not to travel the 4 corners of the earth searching for salvation, when it lies within your grasp here with the Molokan people...your people.

The kingdom of God is within you. You will not find it out in the world of false Christianity. If you never search within yourself, you are looking in the wrong places.

God Bless.

Mark Volkoff

Hi Mark,

What does "Our People" mean to God?

The Molokans are not a Tribe just as the Mormans are not a tribe. We will stand judgment before God in a group.

When Paul talks about enduring to the end, he means your faith, not sitting among the same people all your life.

We are nearing the end or the return of Jesus Christ and Molokanism should be preaching repentance and The Blood of Jesus Christ. Why don't they? I know it's not for you to answer but the don't- What good are the gatherings then?

Until most of the Molokan churches do repent they are on the path that they say outside churches are.

If they do not want to budge and speak in the language of Salvation, many will leave and go to where you call greener pastures- That being because the Shepard in those pastures outside knows their voice and they know His. They are not looking for a "greener" pasture, they are looking for a pasture with out heir-lings. Read John 10. They are not looking for something "better" but they are looking for the Jesus Christ that the Father is calling them too. Mark, that is scripture and not my two cents. Take these topics up with the Lord and see what He has to tell YOU. Don't just listen to another man etc.. etc..

Many don't know Russian as myself (and many speakers don't know it and are Bible illiterate )and we don't need to know it. Our forefather spoke Russian because they lived in Russia-Kind of a simple thing to comprehend. If they worked to pay their bills in Russian then they would have a feasible thought. I have to say I admire the Amish in these respects- They pratice what they preach. I see them and I see peasants. I don't understand why they do things the way they do but I resoect them.

Many hear the Shepard outside the doors of Molokanism- Sorry- But that is just the facts. If the churches don't like it, then they can make choices-If they don't, people will heed their callings out side the doors of what Molokanism is today. That is God Himself doing the work, not me or other sin the past but God Himself, calling His children one by one- Only He has the authority to do that.

Paul W. Orloff

GoodDay · January 23, 2010

It's all good Brother!!

Sorry Paul if I dragged you into something...

I figured you might be more approachable seeing as I'm so "anti-molokan" if someone was looking for Biblical answers

Mea Culpa

If molokanism is a cult why does stevepiv and lastinline attend that cult for worship?

Speak to stevepiv or GoodDay...they can give you Biblical basis for molokanism being a cult

If Molokinism is a cult why is the name of this site Molokan .net?

It it deception or marketing? I have asked this question many times, but no answer.

For the record, I did not ask Seeking to include my name in that comment, but at the same time I did not ask him to remove it.

Look at Seekings signature and you will see three types of Molokans. The third one being a cult and I totally agree with him on that. I know he knows a lot of Christian Molokans and love them as he does know about cultist Molokanism and prays for them.

I pray that them that are not sure, pray, and do a read on cults and see where you stand. You do not want to be on the cult side of the fence. As Seeking said many Molokans go to doings to witness so that them lost inside will at least see the truth some where.

One easy sign of a cult, is when the leaders do not allow you to do "outside" studies about Jesus Christ.

I find a huge irony in listinging to Chuch Smith on the MP3. The man and Calvary that so many cultist Molokans fear because of exposure is actually sticking up for them as being a Christian group. What I take from that is that he knows the history of the Molokans a people that had a first love of Jesus Christ, and now seeing a group who for the most part is in love with the traditions on our forefathers rather than the True Love of Jesus Christ.

Paul W. Orloff

stevepiv · January 23, 2010

In the meantime, nothing is being done to make positive change within our own tribe or people if you will.

Hi Mark,

With all respect, how do you know this to be fact?

What is Mark doing to make a positive change in "our own tribe" or "people if you will"?

The positive change is happening, just many don't want to see it or recognize it. People want to see the jumping and skipping, something familiar as their parents and grandparents saw.

They can't see the many lives that are learning to live and walk in God's Freedom on a daily basis. Only by trusting Jesus can anyone experience this kind of freedom and those who know him do. It is real freedom.

It's always easier to point the finger at others, on why "nothing is being done". Because you’re trying to make others do it, instead of living it yourself. It’s natural to deal with our own emptiness by trying to get others around us to change. That’s why so much is built around accountability and human effort. If we could just get everyone else to do what’s right, everything would be better for us.

Religion survives by telling us we need to fall in line or some horrible fate will befall us. That thinking so distorts God’s working. Numerous groups, not only Molokans that act out of fear rather than trusting in Our Heavenly Father, will lead to even more disastrous results.

I've learned and read to keep the "system", "our tribe" "our own people if you will" in working order, you have to obligate people through commitment or appeal to what their ego needs by convincing them this is the "only", "the best", "the greatest" place to belong. Performance based services and friendships that last only when you are on "my team/tribe/own people"....Once you cross that line..."the tribe", "our own people" will treat you like damaged goods.

Religion has done much damage in making people dependent on "forefathers" "leaders"; that thinking has actually made people passive in their own spiritual growth. We wait for others to show us how, or even just follow "them" and hope that "they" got it right, or are getting it right.

Jesus wants this relationship with you and he wants you to be an active part in that process.

Sent with the Love of Christ.

Steve Pivovaroff

KevinPolyaNazaroff · January 23, 2010

I wanted to share a few thoughts...

It seems that in this day and age, many are all to willing to run away from their life and find something better on the other side of the fence. I'm talking about religion and faith...the people we were born into. The bible mentions that we are to stay within our own tribe. I see so many people looking into other denominations in order to feel spiritually fulfilled.

I am not afraid to run from ungodly churches, unchristian churches.

Jesus commanded us to forsake all and follow Him.

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

25 “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. Mt 16:24-25 NASB

In the meantime, nothing is being done to make positive change within our own tribe or people if you will. Our people have an identity. This identity was won by ancestors that perished so that they and future generations of their families could worship freely in Jesus Christ. These are our ancestors, people who laid a foundation and path to redemption through Christ for us.

I can not support anything but the true church of Jesus Christ, can you?

The molokans have separated themselves from the rest of the Christian world a long time ago, and the only way to "make positive changes" is to go back to biblical based Christianity.

These words of Paul tell us that Jesus Christ broke any barrier that groups of people(tribes) built up.

Do molokan churches build barriers or let Jesus break them down?

11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—

12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;

18 for through Him we both(Jew and Gentile) have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,

22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Eph 2:11-22 NASB

If we ignore this fact and simply give up on our own people and try to find spirituality out in the world, what are we left with?

Biblical Christianity.

The answer is nothing. We erase our history and the beginnings of our people...the Molokans. We have a very special tie to Christ, as our people were called to Him during some of the toughest times of religious persecution in the history of the world. That created a special bond between our people and God, because God saw what was happening to the Molokans and took them...those who would listen, out of Russia and put us in a country that allowed freedom to worship how we saw fit.

If we ignore this and try to find greener pastures, this will only spell the end of Molokans. In fact, there is an exodus of Molokans now...those wanting something supposedly better.

Did Jesus care about Apostle Paul and his "bond" with his Jewish background?

Paul "left" the "faith" in order to fulfill the will of God.

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; Ac 9:15 NASB

I would urge these people to not turn away from their roots and hold firm until the end. God tells us to persevere until the end. There will always be hard times physically and spiritually, but the answer is not to travel the 4 corners of the earth searching for salvation, when it lies within your grasp here with the Molokan people...your people.

The kingdom of God is within you. You will not find it out in the world of false Christianity. If you never search within yourself, you are looking in the wrong places.

God Bless.

Mark Volkoff

How do you know that you have true salvation?

John the baptist spoke of the "fruit of repentance".

Do you see this fruit manifested in the molokan churches?

8 “Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

9 “Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10 And the crowds were questioning him, saying, “Then what shall we do?”

11 And he would answer and say to them, “The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise.” Lk 3:8-11 NASB

Kevin Nazaroff

stevepiv · January 23, 2010

On Wikipedia I searched "Characteristics of a Cult", if we read Mark's "thoughts" you can see the correlation with his "thoughts" and the "cultish thoughts" listed below.

Here is the link---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist

Here are few of the findings by the researchers:

Excessive use of fear: fear of thinking independently, fear of the "outside" world, fear of enemies, fear of losing one's "salvation", fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group, fear of disapproval.

A movement that separates itself from society, either geographically or socially;

Exclusivity - "we are right and everyone else is wrong".

Making sharp distinctions between us and them, divine and Satanic, good and evil, etc. that are not open for discussion;

Leaders who claim divine authority for their deeds and for their orders to their followers;

A powerful leader who claims divinity or a special mission entrusted to him/her from above;

Revealed scriptures or doctrine;

Totalitarianism and alienation of members from their families and/or friends;

The use of indoctrination, by sophisticated mind-control techniques, based on the concept that once you can make a person behave the way you want, then you can make him/her believe what you want;

Keep them away from competing or critical ideas;

The leadership dictates (rather than suggests) important personal (as opposed to spiritual) details of followers' lives, such as whom to marry, what to study in college, etc.;

Self-sanctification through purity (pushing the individual towards an unattainable perfection)

Deliberately holding back information, distorting information to make it more "acceptable," "outright lying."

Signed,

Steve Pivovaroff

Edited January 23, 2010 by stevepiv

GoodDay · January 23, 2010

Wake up Mark- Before it's too late!

We all want you to reach eternal Salvation, but the choice is your not ours-

Paul

stevepiv · January 23, 2010

Wake up Mark- Before it's too late!

We all want you to reach eternal Salvation, but the choice is your not ours-

Paul

Amen!

2nd Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2nd Corinthians 5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

lastinline · January 25, 2010

'GoodDay' date='Jan 22 2010, 01:19 PM' post='46343'
What I take from that is that he knows the history of the Molokans as a people that had a first love of Jesus Christ, and now seeing a group who for the most part is in love with the traditions on our forefathers rather than the True Love of Jesus Christ.

Paul W. Orloff

Congratulations, Paul, that is absolutely true for far too many Molokans and most of the leadership.

lastinline

lastinline · January 25, 2010

'guest' date='Jan 22 2010, 03:13 PM' post='46364'
I wanted to share a few thoughts...

The kingdom of God is within you. You will not find it out in the world of false Christianity. If you never search within yourself, you are looking in the wrong places.

God Bless.

Mark Volkoff

Just a thought ! Would this kingdom of God that is within you, allow you to refuse to attend a grandmother's funeral because it was being observed in a facility that you apparently believed was a part of "the world of false Christianity?"

lastinline (& just wondering) :no:

January 25, 2010

// Why would they question it if they know the Truth

Molokanism is not the Truth but a lie

It has nothing to do with maturity or "growing"

There are plenty of molokan "elders" in their 60's or 70's that still teach lies

It has nothing to do with age//

Then instead of putting them down to where they cant defend themselves without being hated on shouldnt we, out of love for our neighbors, talk to them explain to them what it is that theyre doing wrong? i mean youre so good at it already when they opt not to talk to you, why not do it in person, and a little kinder.

they teach lies because its all they know. and anyone who tells them different does it NEGATIVELY.

//You say Christianity

Please define what that means to you using Scripture (The Bible) //

oh thank you for defineing what Sripture is, because i definately didnt know that it was the Bible. i must be that misslead.

and ill get back to you on that one, i will find a bunch for you alright

//Love can also includes correction//

yeah it does, but what i saw was putting people down, if you were trying to correct him you would have asked who this steve was so you could talk to him and help him see what you thought he was doing wrong instead you posted a blog to basically talk about him behind his back. that not love, thats coward.

//Yes I could. Why don't you have a "name the site" contest?

I don't think my happiness is high on your bucket list :>) //

if hes such a christian it should be, am i wrong?

seeking_truth_1 · January 26, 2010

Good Evening

You seem a bit young and perhaps have not dealt with many people in a cult

It can be very difficult to share in most instances regardless of location

The idea that you would be granted "face time" to discuss their bad doctrine is novel but I believe unrealistic

In addition, you are confused that somehow this is a personal attack against an "elder"

This is an issue when "elders" are leading people astray and not in some minor distinctives but in the area of core Christian tenets

It is true the Word is alive and sharper than any two edged sword so my view is to put it out in a way that it will get delivered

You couldn't very well ruin someones wedding or funeral by causing a scene

This format seems to work and there has been fruit

As to "kindness" it really just depends...

Jesus dealt with people differently

Some with compassion

The woman caught in adultery (John 8:1)

Some firmly but in understanding

The woman at the well (John 4)

Yet others He blasted

The false religious leaders (Matthew 23)

I don't know you so I believe it's necessary to understand where people are coming from and what their views are regarding Biblical Christianity

It's a fair question

If you've followed the forum for any length of time, it can be very difficult to figure out what someone really believes

It's taken years for EGK to finally get honest about their faith where they deny the Deity of Jesus and dispute the veracity of Scripture

That's why I'm asking you what Christianity means to you

According to Scripture

1) Who is Jesus

2) How is Salvation secured

3) Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God

As to "putting down" this person, I did not

My observation, based upon their testimony, is if they have been exposed to solid Bible teaching for years they should recognize molokanism as a cult

It seemed very odd to me they could not

As I stated before I could be wrong and they really have never done the study to really get down to the core tenets of the failed religion of men called molokanism

It would seem that quite a few people either don't know or don't want to know the Truth about the cult of molokanism

For some it is easier to "go with the flow" so as not to be shunned

// Why would they question it if they know the Truth
Molokanism is not the Truth but a lie

It has nothing to do with maturity or "growing"

There are plenty of molokan "elders" in their 60's or 70's that still teach lies

It has nothing to do with age//

Then instead of putting them down to where they cant defend themselves without being hated on shouldnt we, out of love for our neighbors, talk to them explain to them what it is that theyre doing wrong? i mean youre so good at it already when they opt not to talk to you, why not do it in person, and a little kinder.

they teach lies because its all they know. and anyone who tells them different does it NEGATIVELY.

//You say Christianity

Please define what that means to you using Scripture (The Bible) //

oh thank you for defineing what Sripture is, because i definately didnt know that it was the Bible. i must be that misslead.

and ill get back to you on that one, i will find a bunch for you alright

//Love can also includes correction//

yeah it does, but what i saw was putting people down, if you were trying to correct him you would have asked who this steve was so you could talk to him and help him see what you thought he was doing wrong instead you posted a blog to basically talk about him behind his back. that not love, thats coward.

//Yes I could. Why don't you have a "name the site" contest?

I don't think my happiness is high on your bucket list :>) //

if hes such a christian it should be, am i wrong?

January 26, 2010

On the January 19th show "Pastors Perspective" on KWVE a caller identifying themself as "Steve" asked if molokanism is a cult

"Steve" also mentioned he was "born into" a religion called "molokan christians"

"Steve" also claimed that he grew up in a Calvary Chapel Church

I believe that perhaps "Steve" was not being honest

It seems odd to me for someone who has been under solid Bible teaching since childhood would have any question as to molokanism being a cult nor would they say they were "born into" the "molokan religion"

I have a suspicion this "Steve" may not really attend a Bible only teaching Church but perhaps is seeking after the Truth regarding a failed religion of men (molokanism)

From earlier in the program the hosts of the show identified certain characteristics of a cult:

1) Claiming to have "special" knowledge NO ONE else has

2) Denying the Deity of Jesus - Making Him less than God

3) Failure to recognize the Tri-Hypostasis

4) Strong emphasis on works based salvation

5) Very legalistic

Then Chuck went on to say that molokanism is not a cult

He obviously does not know the core tenets of molokanism

"Steve" if you have real questions about molokanism, there are people willing to help you

Register on the site and you will eventually get PM privileges

Speak to stevepiv or GoodDay...they can give you Biblical basis for molokanism being a cult

More importantly they can point to the Biblical Jesus and His offer of Salvation

Hello Seeker, My name is Steven Sisoev, I am the young man who called into pastor's perspective.

First off yes I wanted Pastor Chuck's opinion on Molokans because i respect and trust his knowledge of the Bible, and wanted to know what he thought.

Second it was my nervous mistake having never made a call like that before that I used "molokan Christian" when the way I truely refer to it is Christian Molokan, Christianity being my faith which rests in the Lord Jesus, and Molokan the community of ppls I was born into yes.

I grew up and spent most my life learning from various teachers of the Bible at MorningStar Christian Chaple, and a lot of that under the teachings of Pastor Jack Abeelen, I believe you may know him? Well I can assure you that i currently attend there as well as weekly Bible classes there, and believe me, it is a soely Bible teaching church..

For everyone else on here let me correct that slander on me and my honesty, and tell you that I was purely looking for a respected teacher's opinion on Molokans, and that includes all 3 sects that Seeker puts in his disclaimer.. tho he did not wait to ask this of me and get clarification before coming onto this site to gossip about what he did not know.. and to go on about Pastor Chuck not knowing.. it may be true he isn't familiar with the three different sects of molokans and only gave his best answer, but that does not mean he was not correct, because he was talking specifically about the certain BELIEVERS with whom he had been in fellowship with.. as he said on the show by the way.

Also knowing both stevepiv and Paul(tho i don't get to talk to paul often as i would like) I go to them with a lot of my questions. They are two very awesome loving brothers to Fellowship with. they both have a Godly love for these ppl as do I, and they are not out to gossip or speak out of ignorance about other ppl. For that I forgive you, and will pray that God may show you how to "hold your tounge" before speaking out about topics you don't have correct info on. I felt the need to say this because, as you said when someones flying down that road toward a broken bridge you gotta save them... I believe that your heart may be in the right place but that you are trying to go about things like this on your own, and not giving up the time to the Lord needed to be told what His answer is, and what His plan will be for you. There are people to be reached in Molokans and all over the world, but there is a way to go about doing this and it is to do it the Lord's way, which is speaking the Truth only, and definately not gossiping about what we do not fully understand.

I pray that we all continue in what the Lord has set in store for us, and that we do not spend our time fighting amongst ourselves(read paul's letter to Philemon) but learning the True Word of God and going out into the world to make Disciples for the Lord! Maranatha! God Bless you all

January 26, 2010

whyd you take down this topic?

AccidentPrOWN · January 26, 2010

alright some He was kind to, some He blasted, He still did it face to face.

//if you've followed the forum for any length of time,//

oh common you know i havnt

seeking_truth_1 · January 26, 2010

Thank you for the clarification...

The notion that molokanism is not a cult is still incorrect

Sure there is a remnant of Christians within molokanism for one reason or another and it is possible that Chuck may have met someone who associated themselves with molokanism that very well may have been a Christian

Since you have been under the teaching of a solid Bible teaching Church you should know the Truth

Thats was what did not add up

To ask the question "is molokanism a cult" you really must not be aware of the core tenets of molokanism especially from the "spirit & life" book

The assertion the molokan "church" "respects the Lord" I also do not agree with ESPECIALLY since the spirit & life book permeates every aspect of molokanism

Chuck WOULD NOT be welcomed nor could he participate because he is "ne-nash" even though he knows the Truth and has taught it throughout his lifetime

I do not view this entire episode as gossip though you may wish to frame it as such

Gossip is the divulging of private or personal information I was entrusted with

From Websters 1) rumor or report of an intimate nature

Firstly it's not a rumor. This situation did occur and it certainly wasn't private because it was broadcast on public radio

molokanism has become a cult and many on the outside do not understand the core tenets

1) The denial of the Deity of Jesus

2) Salvation by works and/or lineage and/or association

3) Replacement theology making molokanism the "new israel"

4) Prayer for the dead as a method of salvation

5) Racism veiled in religious terms

6) Fanatical devotion to a "spiritual leader"

plus many other heretical teachings

I was gravely concerned if someone heard molokanism was given a "thumbs up" by a Godly man they would think molokanism was a Christian Church

Simply put, it is not

I hope that explains the motivation behind the post

LTTBT · January 26, 2010

Thank you for the clarification...

I still believe that the notion that molokanism is not a cult is incorrect

Sure there is a remnant of Christians within molokanism for one reason or another and it is possible that Chuck may have met someone who associated themselves with molokanism that very well may have been a Christian

Since you have been under the teaching of a solid Bible teaching Church you should know the Truth

Thats was what did not add up

To ask the question "is molokanism a cult" you really must not be aware of the core tenets of molokanism especially from the "spirit & life" book

The assertion the molokan "church" "respects the Lord" I also do not agree with ESPECIALLY since the spirit & life book permeates every aspect of molokanism

Chuck WOULD NOT be welcomed nor could he participate because he is "ne-nash" even though he knows the Truth and has taught it throughout his lifetime

I do not view this entire episode as gossip though you may wish to frame it as such

Gossip is the divulging of private or personal information I was entrusted with

From Websters 1) rumor or report of an intimate nature

Firstly it's not a rumor. This situation did occur and it certainly wasn't private because it was broadcast on public radio

molokanism has become a cult and many out the outside do not understand the core tenets

1) The denial of the Deity of Jesus

2) Salvation by works and/or lineage and/or association

3) Replacement theology making molokanism the "new israel"

4) Prayer for the dead as a method of salvation

5) Racism veiled in religious terms

6) Fanatical devotion to a "spiritual leader"

plus many other heretical teachings

I was gravely concerned if someone heard molokanism was given a "thumbs up" by a Godly man they would think molokanism was a Christian Church

Simply put, it is not

I hope that explains the motivation behind the post

Let's do a road trip to the Molokan gathering place in SanFrancisco.

seeking_truth_1 · January 26, 2010

Are they doctrinally closer to Biblical Christianity?

I have spoken to one of the preachers up there and they also had some very odd beliefs

I spent at least an hour going over the Book of Revelation and pointing them to the Truths found there

I will say one thing regarding this gentleman...He was fair minded

10 ¶ Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men. (Acts 17:10-12 NKJV)

It was a nice visit and he didn't simply point me to the door

LTTBT · January 26, 2010

Are they doctrinally closer to Biblical Christianity?

I have spoken to one of the preachers up there and they also had some very odd beliefs

I spent at least an hour going over the Book of Revelation and pointing them to the Truths found there

I will say one thing regarding this gentleman...He was fair minded

10 ¶ Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men. (Acts 17:10-12 NKJV)

It was a nice visit and he didn't simply point me to the door

Now that's what I'm talking about. There is hope for all, even for a Molokan preacher.........

This is why some choooose to stay and some choooose to leave........ hope.

seeking_truth_1 · January 26, 2010

As long as you are regularly attending a Bible Teaching Church or fellowship because you cannot rely on molokan "church" for spiritual nourishment

molokan "church" attendance needs to be viewed as a missions trip as the Lord leads

Are they doctrinally closer to Biblical Christianity?

I have spoken to one of the preachers up there and they also had some very odd beliefs

I spent at least an hour going over the Book of Revelation and pointing them to the Truths found there

I will say one thing regarding this gentleman...He was fair minded

10 ¶ Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men. (Acts 17:10-12 NKJV)

It was a nice visit and he didn't simply point me to the door

Now that's what I'm talking about. There is hope for all, even for a Molokan preacher.........

This is why some choooose to stay and some choooose to leave........ hope.

LTTBT · January 27, 2010

As long as you are regularly attending a Bible Teaching Church or fellowship because you cannot rely on molokan "church" for spiritual nourishment

molokan "church" attendance needs to be viewed as a missions trip as the Lord leads

That's what I have been trying to tell you since '06.

January 27, 2010

Thank you for the clarification...

I still believe that the notion that molokanism is not a cult is incorrect

Sure there is a remnant of Christians within molokanism for one reason or another and it is possible that Chuck may have met someone who associated themselves with molokanism that very well may have been a Christian

Since you have been under the teaching of a solid Bible teaching Church you should know the Truth

Thats was what did not add up

To ask the question "is molokanism a cult" you really must not be aware of the core tenets of molokanism especially from the "spirit & life" book

The assertion the molokan "church" "respects the Lord" I also do not agree with ESPECIALLY since the spirit & life book permeates every aspect of molokanism

Chuck WOULD NOT be welcomed nor could he participate because he is "ne-nash" even though he knows the Truth and has taught it throughout his lifetime

I do not view this entire episode as gossip though you may wish to frame it as such

Gossip is the divulging of private or personal information I was entrusted with

From Websters 1) rumor or report of an intimate nature

Firstly it's not a rumor. This situation did occur and it certainly wasn't private because it was broadcast on public radio

molokanism has become a cult and many out the outside do not understand the core tenets

1) The denial of the Deity of Jesus

2) Salvation by works and/or lineage and/or association

3) Replacement theology making molokanism the "new israel"

4) Prayer for the dead as a method of salvation

5) Racism veiled in religious terms

6) Fanatical devotion of a "spiritual leader"

plus many other heretical teachings

I was gravely concerned if someone heard molokanism was given a "thumbs up" by a Godly man they would think molokanism was a Christian Church

Simply put, it is not

I hope that explains the motivation behind the post

--------------------

**********Disclaimer**********

I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing

There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)

Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie

Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I?

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture

**********End Disclaimer**********

"I still believe that the notion that molokanism is not a cult is incorrect"

In your disclaimer.. do you not directly dissagree with this quote from your last post by adding in group one? Not all Molokan churches follow the book of Spirit & Life, nor do all Molokan ppl. This specific group 1 simply acknowedges the traditions of the church, and chooses to worship the Lord(God,Son, and Spirit) in this way, and works to bring the community back to what it once was, before the cultist group three you speak of moved in and changed parts. and who is to say that the Lord is finished with the Molokan ppl and give them up so redily as a complete cultist group? Did the Isrealites not fall away from the Lord time and again into idolitry and false teachings, and then thru a judge or revival if you will get corrected and brought back to Him? and i do realize you split it up into groups and you were not trying flat out to come against group one, to which i belong.. but with speaking out as you did with out full knowledge of what was being talked about, thats what you did. So again I urge you please know what you are giving your opinion on exactly before talking about it, so as to not yourself give false teaching.

And what ever websters has to say about gossip may fit your explionation, but to speak as if certain of a fact, when being for lack of a better word ignorant of the true meaning of the conversation could be held under gossip. and also to speak out against someone saying they are dishonest, or not scripturally sound, ESPEACIALLY when you do not know them, or being human can only judge from the outside IS Slander which my brand new editon of the websters dictionary states as "the utterance of a falsehood that damages anothers reputation" oh and it also defines Gossip as "one who chatters idly about others" which is Exactly what you did. No I'm sorry I'm not trying to point fingers or knock you down for this mistake, but you seemed thru this conversation in need of a correction, Because as a believer in Christ I can not sit by and watch as someone who claims to be under the Lord openly does things the Bible says not to do, this is NOT meant to condemn this is brotherly correction for what i am hoping was just a swaying in Faith for which all is forgiven in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is a completely different conversation then the cultist one but one i had to address being as it was my name being spoken about..

"I was gravely concerned if someone heard molokanism was given a "thumbs up" by a Godly man they would think molokanism was a Christian Church

Simply put, it is not"-- first you say in your disclaimer that atleast one group of it is Christian, the second group is no different then any other relgious unbeliever found in any other Bible teaching group, and tho you did not specify before this would mainly only apply to 2&3 which i agree with you there but not on the terms that 1 should be forgtten.. And a Christian Church is Not a building or anything like that but a group of believers meeting to learn, fellowship, worship, and otherwise grow in the Lord, which there are definately Molokans who fall under definition of a Christian Church. and I agree more information should be given out as to define these 3 groups you speak of so that no one throws them all together as one

You seem to be in a place that i once found myself in(correct me please if you feel different, but I'm speaking about myself here), where you, led by ur own mind and knowledge want only to prove someone wrong and shut them down, but not bring the Lord's Word to them in a loving way as Christ commands John 13:34 "a new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another" I see no love like this in your post brother and therefore needed to address that, in which I hope is a loving way, cause from the whole of my heart i meant it to be.

Also please give attention to these verses.. 1 Timothy 2:8 "I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing" Pray for your brothers and pray with them instead of disputing with them and the Lord will do great things.

1 Timothy 3:7 "He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap" Here Paul speaks of anyone wishing to be a overseer or Elder in a church and how they must strive for a good reputation inside and outside of the church... Now I had heard previous this post many things about you, both good and bad from inside and outside of your church, and I chose not to believe the bad and defended you before.. possibly why i took such offense to your post.. but I see now that I did not know you or have fellowship with you myself, and i would not claim to have either of that now,(tho i would like to one day as a brother in the Lord) and therefore could not make a defense for you, but I do believe your heart rests with the Lord and therefore i urge you to please conisder what your words do to your reputation both inside and outside of the church, because you stand for the Lord you Must stand as a loving light for Him Everywhere and with Everyone, or your ministry for Him produce no fruits. I pray this for all of us to remember how we must be as Disciples of Christ, and hope that my words do not speak falsely towards anyone. God Bless you and Keep you.

NAD923 · January 27, 2010

As long as you are regularly attending a Bible Teaching Church or fellowship because you cannot rely on molokan "church" for spiritual nourishment

molokan "church" attendance needs to be viewed as a missions trip as the Lord leads

That's what I have been trying to tell you since '06.

Have any of you actually been to a molokan elders bible/study class?

From what it sounds like to me, is that you're not even intrested what molokans have to say!

Every one is going every where ecsept where there're supposed to!

Has anyone heard of "spiritual adultry" or "putrid waters" ect.?

If your not intrested in where God has put you, and have gone else where to drink,

PLEASE DON"T BRING THAT WATER WERE IT"S NOT WANTED!!!!!!!!

If you're going to diffrent bible/study groups, how strong is your faith, that you won't get swayed to other opions?

All faiths attend and everybody has a diffrent opion.

From what I've read on this site, it sounds like I'm to late in saying this!

:sick:

KevinPolyaNazaroff · January 27, 2010

As long as you are regularly attending a Bible Teaching Church or fellowship because you cannot rely on molokan "church" for spiritual nourishment

molokan "church" attendance needs to be viewed as a missions trip as the Lord leads

That's what I have been trying to tell you since '06.

Have any of you actually been to a molokan elders bible/study class?

From what it sounds like to me, is that you're not even intrested what molokans have to say!

Every one is going every where ecsept where there're supposed to!

Has anyone heard of "spiritual adultry" or "putrid waters" ect.?

If your not intrested in where God has put you, and have gone else where to drink,

PLEASE DON"T BRING THAT WATER WERE IT"S NOT WANTED!!!!!!!!

If you're going to diffrent bible/study groups, how strong is your faith, that you won't get swayed to other opions?

All faiths attend and everybody has a diffrent opion.

From what I've read on this site, it sounds like I'm to late in saying this!

Since when do you, a mere man, get to dictate what the church "wants" and does "not want"?

You have no scriptural reference for your selfish statements.

You have no clue as to who the "suffering servant" really is/was.

I attend several Christian churches and bible studies.

Are you going to tell me that I can not attend your cult of a molokan church?

Kevin Nazaroff

LTTBT · January 27, 2010

Have any of you actually been to a molokan elders bible/study class?

Yes, I have.

KevinPolyaNazaroff · January 27, 2010

Simply put, it is not"-- first you say in your disclaimer that atleast one group of it is Christian, the second group is no different then any other relgious unbeliever found in any other Bible teaching group, and tho you did not specify before this would mainly only apply to 2&3 which i agree with you there but not on the terms that 1 should be forgtten.. And a Christian Church is Not a building or anything like that but a group of believers meeting to learn, fellowship, worship, and otherwise grow in the Lord, which there are definately Molokans who fall under definition of a Christian Church. and I agree more information should be given out as to define these 3 groups you speak of so that no one throws them all together as one

You seem to be in a place that i once found myself in(correct me please if you feel different, but I'm speaking about myself here), where you, led by ur own mind and knowledge want only to prove someone wrong and shut them down, but not bring the Lord's Word to them in a loving way as Christ commands John 13:34 "a new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another" I see no love like this in your post brother and therefore needed to address that, in which I hope is a loving way, cause from the whole of my heart i meant it to be.

Steven Sisoev,

Why are you trying to defend a cult? What seeking is stating about the three groups is that, although there may be true christians within the molokans,

there is no true salvation found within the walls of the molokan church.

All true christians that happen to be within the walls of the molokan church found salvation through Jesus Christ by the outside influance of "outside" christian churches.

And yes, I say "walls of the molokan church", because the molokan church is building walls that our lord Jesus does not approve of.

You seem to be confused on this.

Kevin Nazaroff

LTTBT · January 27, 2010

Why are you trying to defend a cult? What seeking is stating about the three groups is that, although there may be true christians within the molokans,
there is no true salvation found within the walls of the molokan church.

All true christians that happen to be within the walls of the molokan church found salvation through Jesus Christ by the outside influance of "outside" christian churches.

Kevin Nazaroff

There are true believers within the molokans. If the true believers are within the walls there is also salvation there.

I am sure there have been many a soul saved at camp (a molokan fellowship), at the pick-e-nick (a molokan function), and even

at Sunday School (when it was happening), and a few bible classes.

So you are saying that God can not save anyone that attends a Molokan function? You are doubting the power of God.

LTTBT · January 27, 2010

Matthew 19:26 (New International Version)

26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

LTTBT · January 27, 2010

Mark 9:23 (New International Version)

23" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."

LTTBT · January 27, 2010

Do you believe??????

GoodDay · January 27, 2010

As long as you are regularly attending a Bible Teaching Church or fellowship because you cannot rely on molokan "church" for spiritual nourishment

molokan "church" attendance needs to be viewed as a missions trip as the Lord leads

That's what I have been trying to tell you since '06.

Have any of you actually been to a molokan elders bible/study class?

From what it sounds like to me, is that you're not even interested what molokans have to say!

Every one is going every where accept where they're supposed to!

Has anyone heard of "spiritual adultery" or "putrid waters" etc.?

If your not interested in where God has put you, and have gone else where to drink,

PLEASE DON"T BRING THAT WATER WERE IT"S NOT WANTED!!!!!!!!

If you're going to different bible/study groups, how strong is your faith, that you won't get swayed to other opinions?

All faiths attend and everybody has a different opinion.

From what I've read on this site, it sounds like I'm to late in saying this!

Nad,

Can you please explain spiritual adultery and reference with the Holy Bible for us?

You mentioned, that everyone is going everywhere else except where they are supposed to. What do you mean by "suppose to"? Most Christians follow Jesus Christ and not man.

The Bible is not others opinions, and is the infallible Word of God.

The Spirit and Life is not of God. Read the whole thing and pray that YOU take away from it, it's falseness.

The Spirit and Life is one of the two biggest stumbling blocks used for the "elders" to keep others from the True Jesus Christ-The other is speaking in a foreign language. Actually I am starting to think that some elders hide behind the language so their Scripture illiteracy will not be seen.

There are some True honest Christian Elders out there BUT most are Pharisees and Cult leaders and hirelings.

I would like to know how many people were really convicted at a normal church service of their sin and came to true repentance?

Paul W. Orloff

January 27, 2010

Who are you to say what Jesus accepts as His? Do u have scripture for you accusation? And if you read, you'd know how when two or more are gathered in Jesus' name He is faithful to be there.. That is what a church is Kevin. And i attend studies with in molokans and elsewhere, and i have counceled at Christian molokan camp and prayed with kids and adults and seen them accept Christ and seen the Holy Spirit start its awesome work in their lives. So i think you are the one who is confused, and i pray you are able to see the joys of the Lord, in whatever group you are with, and the marvelous works of the Spirit. And that your eyes and heart are open by the Lord so you will not be guilty of the same unacceptance you all find so wrong with the cultish molokan church. And yes unacceptance of others is wrong, but yes its no different then your unacceptance of them, and the Spirit that is with the Christian molokan people. The main of the church was not always closed off, thats a recent change made by the cultist side, but the Lord can do anything, and He will be the one who chooses what will happen with in these people, do not pass judgement on what is not yours to judge, for God saves all judgement for Himself! Instead go out and focus yourself on being open to Him so He may choose to use you for His Will. God bless

January 27, 2010

I agree with Paul, those are the two biggest stumbling stones.. It was not always that way, and i dont believe any of us are trying to say that we want it that way. We are defending the true believers of Christ Jesus with in the molokans, not the cult or its pharasee leaders.. I hope ive been clear on that in all my posts

GoodDay · January 27, 2010

Why are you trying to defend a cult? What seeking is stating about the three groups is that, although there may be true christians within the molokans,
there is no true salvation found within the walls of the molokan church.

All true christians that happen to be within the walls of the molokan church found salvation through Jesus Christ by the outside influance of "outside" christian churches.

Kevin Nazaroff

There are true believers within the molokans. If the true believers are within the walls there is also salvation there.

I am sure there have been many a soul saved at camp (a molokan fellowship), at the pick-e-nick (a molokan function), and even

at Sunday School (when it was happening), and a few bible classes.

So you are saying that God can not save anyone that attends a Molokan function? You are doubting the power of God.

LTTBT,

The three Molokan gatherings you posted have been places where many have came to know Jesus Christ and to accept Him.

These places have a couple of common denominators. People can inderstand what speakers are saying. The Spirit and Life is not part of it. Christians run these things and Jesus Christ dwells there. I heard awesome stories about Sunday School when it was in existance. "The order of things" is not first and foremost priorty if only. The Pharicee/leaders usually don't go to some of these events also as they don't know Christ and some are against them because The Gospel is Preached.

The Molokan churches are WAY different then these fellowship gatherings. I no longer am a member of a Molokan church and the people I hear about and see come to Christ, all happens on the outside. Much of the Molokan mentality is that we are ALLREADY a saved people.

The last four words of my last sentence is the most false statement one can hear.

Paul W. Orloff

Edited January 27, 2010 by GoodDay

January 27, 2010

There are indeed Christians in the Molokan church, but they are there in spite of the Molokan church and not because of it. The reasons are many and not all realted to the Spirit and Life, although that is a huge one. Another reason why the Molokan church is off base is the exclusion, and widespread disdain of nenash. How can you honor Christ when you willfully ignore his word. Please see Matthew 25:31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I have read on this site I believe where it was asked what would happen if King David wanted to join the Molokan and the answer came back well he wouldn't need to, it has been asked what about a hispanic man that comes to the door of the church asking about salvation, the answer: he would be directed to a spanish speaking church down the street. Are those answers you would be comfortable giving to God? because we will be answering to God, and remember what we do to others we have done to Christ himself. Are we comfortable with that? We had better be.

I want to emphasize that there are Chritians in the Molokan church, there are people in the Molokan church, that will be saved. No one should hate anyone in the Molokan church, (or anywhere really), instead we should have love for them. And be proud of who we are, just realize what the truth is and don't allow our pride to make excuses for the lies that have become mainstream Molokanism. We are not saved just beacuse, and we don't have any more claim to salvation than the day laborer at Home Depot. The only secret is faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior (not Maxim), and accepting the Bible as the true Word of God (no S&L).

KevinPolyaNazaroff · January 27, 2010

Why are you trying to defend a cult? What seeking is stating about the three groups is that, although there may be true christians within the molokans,
there is no true salvation found within the walls of the molokan church.

All true christians that happen to be within the walls of the molokan church found salvation through Jesus Christ by the outside influance of "outside" christian churches.

Kevin Nazaroff

There are true believers within the molokans. If the true believers are within the walls there is also salvation there.

I am sure there have been many a soul saved at camp (a molokan fellowship), at the pick-e-nick (a molokan function), and even

at Sunday School (when it was happening), and a few bible classes.

So you are saying that God can not save anyone that attends a Molokan function? You are doubting the power of God.

LTTBT,

The three Molokan gatherings you posted have been places where many have came to know Jesus Christ and to accept Him.

These places have a couple of common denominators. People can inderstand what speakers are saying. The Spirit and Life is not part of it. Christians run these things and Jesus Christ dwells there. I heard awesome stories about Sunday School when it was in existance. "The order of things" is not first and foremost priorty if only. The Pharicee/leaders usually don't go to some of these events also as they don't know Christ and some are against them because The Gospel is Preached.

The Molokan churches are WAY different then these fellowship gatherings. I no longer am a member of a Molokan church and the people I hear about and see come to Christ, all happens on the outside. Much of the Molokan mentality is that we are ALLREADY a saved people.

The last four words of my last sentence is the most false statement one can hear.

Paul W. Orloff

Hey Paul,

Good observation.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

My only concern with camp is that it is still "Molokans only" , which is contrary to the plan and will of God.

LTTBT,

You asked me if I believed.

Believe in what?

Cults that call themselves "Molokans".

Believe what?

That Jesus revives cults?

God does not revive cults, he breaks them.

He breaks them and their cultish ways, in order to restore them to His church.

Look at the temple.

Jesus said He would destroy it, and He did.

He left no room for the converted Jew to go back to religion.

Paster Bruce is going over this right now at Calvary Chapel Fresno.

Tuesday nights at 7pm.

I would love to see you there some time...

Kevin Nazaroff

LTTBT · January 27, 2010

Why are you trying to defend a cult? What seeking is stating about the three groups is that, although there may be true christians within the molokans,
there is no true salvation found within the walls of the molokan church.

All true christians that happen to be within the walls of the molokan church found salvation through Jesus Christ by the outside influance of "outside" christian churches.

Kevin Nazaroff

There are true believers within the molokans. If the true believers are within the walls there is also salvation there.

I am sure there have been many a soul saved at camp (a molokan fellowship), at the pick-e-nick (a molokan function), and even

at Sunday School (when it was happening), and a few bible classes.

So you are saying that God can not save anyone that attends a Molokan function? You are doubting the power of God.

LTTBT,

The three Molokan gatherings you posted have been places where many have came to know Jesus Christ and to accept Him.

These places have a couple of common denominators. People can inderstand what speakers are saying. The Spirit and Life is not part of it. Christians run these things and Jesus Christ dwells there. I heard awesome stories about Sunday School when it was in existance. "The order of things" is not first and foremost priorty if only. The Pharicee/leaders usually don't go to some of these events also as they don't know Christ and some are against them because The Gospel is Preached.

The Molokan churches are WAY different then these fellowship gatherings. I no longer am a member of a Molokan church and the people I hear about and see come to Christ, all happens on the outside. Much of the Molokan mentality is that we are ALLREADY a saved people.

The last four words of my last sentence is the most false statement one can hear.

Paul W. Orloff

Hey Paul,

Good observation.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

My only concern with camp is that it is still "Molokans only" , which is contrary to the plan and will of God.

LTTBT,

You asked me if I believed.

Believe in what?

Cults that call themselves "Molokans".

Believe what?

That Jesus revives cults?

God does not revive cults, he breaks them.

He breaks them and their cultish ways, in order to restore them to His church.

Look at the temple.

Jesus said He would destroy it, and He did.

He left no room for the converted Jew to go back to religion.

Paster Bruce is going over this right now at Calvary Chapel Fresno.

Tuesday nights at 7pm.

I would love to see you there some time...

Kevin Nazaroff

Do you believe the two verses that were cited?

GoodDay · January 27, 2010

Hey Kevin,

You are right about that point at camp. We know that Miracles happen and that God is really working on the hearts of many Molokans as we speak. I think a time will come when all the "junk" will eventually be pulled away. When Religious Rulers try to rule God they can only go so far before things collapse. Molokanism is a few generations further away from when our ancestors came from Russia. Molokans have assimilated into every area possible in thi world and in that process lost our ancestors first love; Jesus Christ.

The great thing is no one has the authority to keep a person from coming to Jesus Christ and it's very heart-warming to see people standing for they faith in the Lord openly and the Rulers really cannot do a thing except pull together closer and closer and use their own thoughts to fight it. They will never win. It's exactly like in the days of Jesus-

God Bless Brother

Paul

Edited January 27, 2010 by GoodDay

KevinPolyaNazaroff · January 27, 2010

Do you believe the two verses that were cited?

Yes I do.

What do these verses have to do with wolves in sheeps clothing?

Do you believe this verse?

6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,

But gives grace to the humble.”

James 4:6 NKJV

Kevin Nazaroff

LTTBT · January 27, 2010

Do you believe the two verses that were cited?

Yes I do.

What do these verses have to do with wolves in sheeps clothing?

Do you believe this verse?

6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,

But gives grace to the humble.”

James 4:6 NKJV

Kevin Nazaroff

And a little farther down is.........

"Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins".

Do you know what you ought to do in regards to the New Isrialites"?

LTTBT · January 27, 2010

Do you believe this verse?

6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,

But gives grace to the humble.”

James 4:6 NKJV

Kevin Nazaroff

Yes I do, Apostle Paul was a great example of that.

Answer me this: If God can turn Saul into Paul do you think God can also turn a New Isrialite (Seekings Group 2 & 3) to a Believer is Jesus Christ?

Edited January 27, 2010 by LTTBT

January 28, 2010

seeking_truth_1 wrote:

From earlier in the program the hosts of the show identified certain characteristics of a cult:

1) Claiming to have "special" knowledge NO ONE else has

Then GoodDay wrote:

We are nearing the end or the return of Jesus Christ

But according to the Bible(the book this group claims to follow), Matthew 24:36 :

But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only

Yea, the Molokans are a cult.

Steve

ps. I would be really surprised if this post actually gets through

stevepiv · January 28, 2010

seeking_truth_1 wrote:

From earlier in the program the hosts of the show identified certain characteristics of a cult:

1) Claiming to have "special" knowledge NO ONE else has

Then GoodDay wrote:

We are nearing the end or the return of Jesus Christ

But according to the Bible(the book this group claims to follow), Matthew 24:36 :

But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only

Yea, the Molokans are a cult.

Steve

ps. I would be really surprised if this post actually gets through

From The Holy Bible:

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.

Edited January 28, 2010 by stevepiv

GoodDay · January 28, 2010

seeking_truth_1 wrote:

From earlier in the program the hosts of the show identified certain characteristics of a cult:

1) Claiming to have "special" knowledge NO ONE else has

Then GoodDay wrote:

We are nearing the end or the return of Jesus Christ

But according to the Bible(the book this group claims to follow), Matthew 24:36 :

But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only

Yea, the Molokans are a cult.

Steve

ps. I would be really surprised if this post actually gets through

I am not quite sure I follow this post?

Are you saying we are going backwards in time and further away from the end or the return of Jesus Christ?

Paul

NAD923 · January 28, 2010

Here's a few suggests for the new site name,

calvery.net

baptist.net

ecumenicalcouncil.net

we-r-not-a-cult.net

christian.net

antimolokan.net

I like this one the best-

antichristsunited.net

anyone else have suggestions?

Pollo del Mar · January 28, 2010

Here's a few suggests for the new site name,

calvery.net

baptist.net

ecumenicalcouncil.net

we-r-not-a-cult.net

christian.net

antimolokan.net

I like this one the best-

antichristsunited.net

anyone else have suggestions?

One suggestion for you would be to stay on topic.

KevinPolyaNazaroff · January 28, 2010

Who are you to say what Jesus accepts as His? Do u have scripture for you accusation? And if you read, you'd know how when two or more are gathered in Jesus' name He is faithful to be there.. That is what a church is Kevin. And i attend studies with in molokans and elsewhere, and i have counceled at Christian molokan camp and prayed with kids and adults and seen them accept Christ and seen the Holy Spirit start its awesome work in their lives. So i think you are the one who is confused, and i pray you are able to see the joys of the Lord, in whatever group you are with, and the marvelous works of the Spirit. And that your eyes and heart are open by the Lord so you will not be guilty of the same unacceptance you all find so wrong with the cultish molokan church. And yes unacceptance of others is wrong, but yes its no different then your unacceptance of them, and the Spirit that is with the Christian molokan people. The main of the church was not always closed off, thats a recent change made by the cultist side, but the Lord can do anything, and He will be the one who chooses what will happen with in these people, do not pass judgement on what is not yours to judge, for God saves all judgement for Himself! Instead go out and focus yourself on being open to Him so He may choose to use you for His Will. God bless

Brother Steven Sisoev,

I want to be real and upfront.

You seem to be all over the place in your posts and I am not sure if you are just blowing off steam or what.

If by my calling you "confused" upset you, then please accept my apology.

If you are my brother in Christ, I do not want any unnecessary strife between us.

I am always willing to humble myself and serve others as the Lord wills.

You are welcome to question my motives or anything else you have a concern about with my posts.

That is what brothers in Christ do.

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

2 Ti 3:16-17 NASB

My comments are clear in regards to the blatant rejection of Gods word by the established molokan church.

My comments were directed toward the molokan establishment and not toward you or any particular individual.

You said some pretty bold things in this thread toward individuals and that concerns me a bit.

So can I leave you with this one thing?

Learn to be submissive to the Word of God spoken to you through other Christians.

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. Heb 13:17 NASB

I only point this out to you because of your bold statements that you made.

I am not concerned with defending myself of others.

I am learning to care less about my own reputation and more about Gods.

But please consider this...

Unless you are willing to submit to others, how can you submit to God?

Kevin Nazaroff

seeking_truth_1 · January 28, 2010

From the earlier definition regarding cults:

1) Claiming to have "special" knowledge NO ONE else has

Pg. 339 Bk. 6 Art. 7 Ver. 10

do not be surprised that God Himself has disclosed all of His secret only to the simple people, the leapers and jumpers.

Pg. 379 Bk. 7 Art. 5 Ver. 1

Let each reader heed all of these new Divinely-inspired short articles of mine, which you perhaps have never heard of anyplace, and which may appear quite outrageous and strange to you.

Pg. 586 Bk. 13 Art. 13 Ver. 3

Take care, let it be in secret away from my enemies so that no one knows about it besides those who believe in my newly-promised Spirit.

As I stated before, it appears Steven has no real concept of the tenets of molokanism especially what it has become in the 20th & 21st centuries

Steven has overtly stated he and his girlfriend are regularly attending a Bible teaching Church to which I applaud those actions

However, I have a few questions

If they should decide to get married, would they be welcomed to get married in a molokan "church" seeing as they are regularly attending "ne-nash" Church?

Also, I would be curious to hear what Stevens definition of molokan is

NO ONE has been able to define what a molokan is in terms of Scripture to date and I have been asking for years

People can point to certain practices yet cannot come up with a cohesive Statement of Faith supported in Scripture

As Kevin stated, this is not an indictment of specific individuals within molokanism rather the core tenets of molokanism and how they ARE NOT Biblical or Christian

Could Steven come up with a cohesive Statement of Faith supported in Scripture for molokanism?

What is a molokan?

Would Stevens "ne-nash" Christian friends be allowed to attend, participate and join a molokan "church"?

fourvetta · January 29, 2010

From The Holy Bible:

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.

A day which has passed is one that is not awaited for.

The unbeliever does not know the hour or the time of the Lord's Coming.

From the same Holy Bible, Christ said;

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city Jerusalem and wept over it,

42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.

43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side,

44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

GoodDay · January 29, 2010

Me and Stevepiv and Steve Sisoev and a couple of other brothers (Four Steves and one Paul :-)) had a blessed time over dinner and a good long talk about Jesus Christ and how He has and is effecting our lives and how He is working in our lives and how IS our life.

Steve Sisoev is a polite, honest and open younger mature man who loves Jesus Christ very much and it was a pleasure meeting with him!. Within minutes we were speaking openly about the Lord as Brothers. He has a deep firm foundation rooted in the Blood of Christ and discussion on here will only go further in the wrong direction. Sometimes face to face visits are the answer. He follows Scripture daily and wanted to get this matter behind as Christians do.

Just a note,

This thread really made some inadvertently false assumptions early on and we all know that can easily happen and that at the same time, communication is very minimal and emotions are not shown in their proper context on here.

I ask that you can please end this thread?

Thanks Kevin for humbling yourself in a awesome Christian manner. It was all a eforum miss-communication. You guys would get along really well. Next time you are in town we can all get a bite to eat or something and can go out on the field and spread the gospel with him and our growing brothers.

Seeking,

You both would have a great brotherly conversation also. With-in seconds off the forum you be calling him your brother.

God Bless you all!

Paul

January 29, 2010

From the earlier definition regarding cults:

1) Claiming to have "special" knowledge NO ONE else has

Pg. 339 Bk. 6 Art. 7 Ver. 10

do not be surprised that God Himself has disclosed all of His secret only to the simple people, the leapers and jumpers.

Pg. 379 Bk. 7 Art. 5 Ver. 1

Let each reader heed all of these new Divinely-inspired short articles of mine, which you perhaps have never heard of anyplace, and which may appear quite outrageous and strange to you.

Pg. 586 Bk. 13 Art. 13 Ver. 3

Take care, let it be in secret away from my enemies so that no one knows about it besides those who believe in my newly-promised Spirit.

As I stated before, it appears Steven has no real concept of the tenets of molokanism especially what it has become in the 20th & 21st centuries

Steven has overtly stated he and his girlfriend are regularly attending a Bible teaching Church to which I applaud those actions

However, I have a few questions

If they should decide to get married, would they be welcomed to get married in a molokan "church" seeing as they are regularly attending "ne-nash" Church?

Also, I would be curious to hear what Stevens definition of molokan is

NO ONE has been able to define what a molokan is in terms of Scripture to date and I have been asking for years

People can point to certain practices yet cannot come up with a cohesive Statement of Faith supported in Scripture

As Kevin stated, this is not an indictment of specific individuals within molokanism rather the core tenets of molokanism and how they ARE NOT Biblical or Christian

Could Steven come up with a cohesive Statement of Faith supported in Scripture for molokanism?

What is a molokan?

Would Stevens "ne-nash" Christian friends be allowed to attend, participate and join a molokan "church"?

Seeking, what I am getting at is that you are speaking as a whole of molokans, your disclaimer says you believe they aren't a whole, I am sorry for any posts that may have been more argumentative then I meant, I do believe that you and Kevin are brothers in Christ,(thru testimonies from others) when I stated that you were confused I simply meant that you were going off on somebody's questions and conversations with a very minimal amount of knowledge to what exactly the conversation was about, I would love to be able to speak in person and fellowship with either of you, and I think that would be much better because this topic and considering its over the internet has become an arguement filled with misunderstandings and much lack of known intention on both sides I am sure.. I did give encouragement in some of my posts to not be attackers and aparently i later got caught up in this myself to which i ask your forgiveness. I would like to make it clear to you, that i DO NOT and never have had anything to do with the book of spirit and life,(and i believe you can be molokan without it, just not the molokan you're speaking of, you're right) i believe that it may hold a history on molokans and their traditions, but in no way is it something to be taught from or regarded as equal or definately not above the Holy Word of God. My question to Chuck was meant to regard molokans as a whole including mainly your group 1 (knowing full well there are both of the other two groups and believeing they are wrong) but past present and God willing the future.. I stated previously that the Jews (God's only actually chosen ppl) fell away from God many times into Idolitry and false teachings, but he saved them time and again revived them.. I do believe however that the molokans of the past were many true believers and that this is what has happened today they have largely fell away from Christ, BUT I do believe that there can be a return to a powerful Faith in Him and that there is a huge harvest ministry to be had within them, as it was said before there are stumbling stones keeping this back (the book<<small b, and the language, and the unnaceptance of All true believers) but I believe fully in the Holy Omnipotent power of the Lord and His son Jesus and the Holy Spirit(trinity) and that Lord willing of course, He can choose to remove these stones.. be it thru steps in Faith of those who love Him or an awesome act of His own, which ever way He chooses.. and that it is not for us to choose. it is only for us to do the works that the Lord calls us to, with a heart of humility. I really really pray that this clears any confusions on where my standing in Christ is concerned or what my intentions were with my seeking, and that we as One body under Christ Jesus focus on encouragement of each other, and as Paul says in 1 timothy 2:8 "I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in Prayer, without anger or disputing." I want that as well. Please if I have left anything unclear contact me thru either Stevepiv or Good day, they have my number. May God Bless you all and Keep you, Maranatha!

p.s. Sorry Steven/Good day.. I hope its okay i put u there for contacts to me, i just know they have ur numbers and didn't want to post my number on the net

seeking_truth_1 · January 29, 2010

We are fine and no apologies are necessary:

My greatest concern was people did not suddenly believe molokanism, in it's current state, is a "Christian Church" after hearing someone make a mis-informed statement

People such as NAD did EXACTLY that and is currently more under the delusion molokanism is a "Christian Church" which it is not though there is still a remnant of Christians there for one reason or another

My point to you, as a cautionary note, is regardless of your Faith and intentions the "spirit and life" book is from the pit of Hell and should have NO PLACE in any Church

Your Faith and the faith as propagated from that book are diametrically opposed and there is NO middle ground

We are not speaking in terms of distictives (style of worship etc) but core Christian tenets to which there can be no compromise

That is why there were questions regarding your understanding of molokanism in it's current state

Would you agree that molokanism in it's current state IS a cult?

I'm not speaking about the remnants of Christians there for one reason or another but rather the core tenets of molokanism

Denial of the Deity of Jesus

The "spirit and life book" regarded as "scripture"

Replacement theology where molokanism is the "new israel"

Prayer for the dead

Infant baptism

Channeling spirits from deceased loved ones

Endogemy

Racism

and an unholy host of others

GoodDay · January 29, 2010

We are fine and no apologies are necessary:

My greatest concern was people did not suddenly believe molokanism, in it's current state, is a "Christian Church" after hearing someone make a mis-informed statement

People such as NAD did EXACTLY that and is currently more under the delusion molokanism is a "Christian Church" which it is not though there is still a remnant of Christians there for one reason or another

My point to you, as a cautionary note, is regardless of your Faith and intentions the "spirit and life" book is from the pit of Hell and should have NO PLACE in any Church

Your Faith and the faith as propagated from that book are diametrically opposed and there in NO middle ground

We are not speaking in terms of distictives (style of worship etc) but core Christian tenets to which there can be no compromise

That is why there were questions regarding your understanding of molokanism in it's current state

Would you agree that molokanism in it's current state IS a cult?

Steve Sesoev clearly and politly and respectfully is sharing that he wants to communicatte face-to-face rather than further bring messyness to this discussion. Your commentinf still on things you are uncertain of.

To continue to ask him questions as such is unfair.

Seeking, I would like to ask that you reveal to everyone on here that read these posts who you are?

Your being unfair at times. Steven S is letting others know who he is and your still trying to pin him down with these questions.

Paul

Ps. It all cool Steve S for bring my name to your post-I am sure Stevepiv would be OK as well.

stevepiv · January 29, 2010

From The Holy Bible:

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.

A day which has passed is one that is not awaited for.

The unbeliever does not know the hour or the time of the Lord's Coming.

From the same Holy Bible, Christ said;

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city Jerusalem and wept over it,

42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.

43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side,

44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

To ALL the readers out there:

Fourvetta has used this quote MANY times to try and justify that Maxim was Jesus Christ's second coming.

DID YOU READ THAT???

Fourvetta believes Maxim was the second coming of Jesus Christ.

We have read it on this forum, there is no denying that.

Fourvetta's belief system is no different than when he was an active member and supporter of Clark St.

seeking_truth_1 · January 29, 2010

That is EXACTLY what the "extra book" teaches and why it has NO PLACE in a Christian Church

From The Holy Bible:

James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.

A day which has passed is one that is not awaited for.

The unbeliever does not know the hour or the time of the Lord's Coming.

From the same Holy Bible, Christ said;

41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city Jerusalem and wept over it,

42 saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.

43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side,

44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation."

To ALL the readers out there:

Fourvetta has used this quote MANY times to try and justify that Maxim was Jesus Christ's second coming.

DID YOU READ THAT???

Fourvetta believes Maxim was the second coming of Jesus Christ.

We have read it on this forum, there is no denying that.

Fourvetta's belief system is no different than when he was an active member and supporter of Clark St.

LTTBT · January 29, 2010

So Seeking, Kevin, and Steven are all ok as far as the original topic is concerned ?

Forgiveness asked and forgiveness granted?

Let's move on to some meat and potato scriptures.

Note: Seeking this means that you won't bring up the S&L,since it isn't Scripture.

January 29, 2010

"War and Peace" isn't scripture, the S&L is anti-scripture. Seriously, it is not my objective to be offensive, so I apologize if this seems so, but the S&L must be criticized, it is not a harmless book just sitting on the prestol, that book has lead many far away from Christ, and been used by many more to justify wrong, and anti-biblical viewpoints. If this book in any way keeps people away from Christ, and there is a bit of evidence that it does, then it is trash that must be disposed of. People that are searchig for the truth need to be made aware of this, their salvation may be on the line, and we should do what we can to help them.

seeking_truth_1 · January 29, 2010

OK with you guys....However that may not be the case with others

We tried to get through the first few verses of John with Sadichka and she slammed on the brakes

As to not bringing up the extra book, that will depend upon what transpires

Obviously with "you guys" you very well know better and there's no need to revisit the issue

However, I will continue to call ANYONE out who advocates the s&l as anything more than writings from the pit of Hell

How about that as a start...

What Scripture book etc would you like to begin with?

We could revisit the John thread

So Seeking, Kevin, and Steven are all ok as far as the original topic is concerned ?
Forgiveness asked and forgiveness granted?

Let's move on to some meat and potato scriptures.

Note: Seeking this means that you won't bring up the S&L,since it isn't Scripture.

Chuck Smith Is Mis-informed

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