How Can A Christian Support War?

GoodDay · June 21, 2010

Note all the different "beliefs" or Non-Beliefs that America's veterans consist of;

http://www.cem.va.gov/hm/hmemb.asp

People fighting in wars that take the lives of others (That Christ died for as well) are for the most part a good majority of people who do not even claim to be christians. The "christians" fighting are in more error than the non-christians as they should be ambassadors of Jesus Christ and should be a peaceful people. Should we not support or take part in these wars?

I am surprised how many churches around America wave a flag a pray for the soldiers success or even praise thier efforts.

Is this really of God?

We are only called to pray for leaders; Also God wants ALL men to be saved?

1 Timothy 2

¹ Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, ² for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. ³ For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, ⁴ who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul W. Orloff

Edited June 21, 2010 by GoodDay

June 21, 2010

Does anybody feel that there is something inherently contradictory in the following advertisement for the U S Army Chaplain Corp?

Watch the video.

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/

Is it New Testament consistant to be a US Army Chaplain? Or does it conflict with the above post?

seeking_truth_1 · June 22, 2010

I'm sorry..

With all due respect...your credibility stinks

You have made ridiculous/heretical statements yet you want to bang this drum?

You cannot get the Bible right so how can you comment authoritatively (Biblically)"

Until you can explain your mishandling of the Book of Acts to support your agenda, you are not being honest

GoodDay · June 22, 2010

This video is extremely contadictory to the New Testament and Thanks Bible Student for sharing that!

Seeking,

Are you able to justify these wars of today with the Words of Jesus Christ? We all know that God in the Old Testament handled things extremely different compared to this side of The Cross and The resurrection and especially on This side of The Day of Pentecost. One good example is Peter filled with flesh still the sword as a Desciple. Once He was filled with the Holy Spirit that ALL changed. Ephesians 6 speaks of the NEW SWORD he used and that we are called to use.

I hear many (most) "christians'" that are OK with partaking in war or supporting war use the saying; "Some are called to war and some are not." I cannot except that as that is against God and not in the Bible. I hear others (most) say that Romans 13 says to "sumbit to your leaders" etc.. as a shallow excuse and again, not what The Scripture is refferring us to do, as you all can see how Anti- Christian our Goverments are. If it was The Truth then them who are for wars and use that Scripture would be for abortion etc.. just as the Government is.

Did Bush really receive a vision from God Himself to go after Bin Laden or to send others to avenge him? No, That is revenge and that is what God is storing up for HIS time and not ours.

When Americans sign up for the Military they sign over their life to follow the Country leaders by signing an oath (read it on line ).. This is what the Bible says though;

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths But I say unto you. Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne Nor by the earth; for it is His footstool neither by Jerusalem for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

Matthew 5:33-37

If you read on a Passport it says that if the holder joins the military in another Country, they automatically lose their citizenship in their Country the live in. I see it the same way as if a person willingly signs their life over in word and on paper to become a slave to their superiories in their residing country in and battle, they either were never a citizen of Heaven or they just gave it up as man can not belong to two masters. Actually The Bible clearly says that and not me.

When a person Truly becomes a child a God, in that process The Holy Spirit indwells in them to convict them and to giuide them and instruct them etc. It says here as you posted in another post about the fruits of the spirit; Fruits of The Spirit;

Love
Joy
Peace
Longsuffering
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Gentleness
Self-control

Nothing about fighting and revenge or killing etc.

Seeking, do you know what Boot camp is and what they teach there? They teach to kill! NOT to convert!!

I am sickened by seeing the Name of Jesus Christ tied to these wars of the devil!

I am sickened to see flags in churches!

I am sickened to see "pastors" pray for success of America's soldiers and for the freedom THEY give us???

Jesus Christ ONLY sets us free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John 8:31-33

³¹To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. ³²Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

The 'church in Amercia' is pathetic. We have all the Freedom in the world and we use it on ourselves? We use the freedom to go to church and hang out with ourselves? They have spent a Trillion Dollars on weapons that kill and kill brutally! Imagine if that money was used for things peace and Bibles and to send people to Ministry camp and they can go volunterrily on Missions? Is not that what God wants? Where in the New Testament on this side of Pentacost does it show even a teeny tiny sign of a God fearing person to give thier luives over to governments to go and kill and to avenge them that God will get in His time as written? Who are we to kill people pre-maturally?

War is of the Devil!

Paul W. Orloff

Ps. bible student needs not be a scholar in the Bible to know that war is wrong just as I am not. The Holy Spirit guides. Maybe when some get to much knowledge they forget Who is in charge?

Let's stop using The Lord's Name in Vain and be honest about about why people want these wars!

Does anybody feel that there is something inherently contradictory in the following advertisement for the U S Army Chaplain Corp?

Watch the video.

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/

Is it New Testament consistant to be a US Army Chaplain? Or does it conflict with the above post?

GoodDay · June 22, 2010

Here is some good reading, clarifying how a man gives his life over to the goverment when he voluntarily joins the armed services;

I am surprised how many say women should not be allowed to be in the wars? NO ONE should be in wars. ESPECIALLY Christrians?????????

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

In the National Guard (Army or Air) I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the State of (STATE NAME) against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Governor of (STATE NAME) and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to law and regulations. So help me God.

Click here for full source

Here is an excerpt from Boot Camp Training (I don't see God in anything or any Bibles. Just stuff to kill) Ask a Soldier personally what they teach you-Especially young ones. My Dad joined at 17 and had to wait a year to join officially and was in Guam doing Jungle Duty and then in Korea fighting (Killing) until about 21 when he was discharged with a tad of frost bite- If you see him or want to call him- Ask him what Camp Pendleton teaches their Marines to do.

"Not only will you learn the basics of how to look and act like a soldier, you will slowly but surely become a soldier. You will become physically fit, self-confident and willing and able to tackle anything that comes your way! You will become intimately familiar with your assigned M16A2 rifle and everything it does, as well as fire a machine gun, a grenade launcher and a host of other weapons in the US Army arsenal. You will learn to become quick on your feet by participating in hand to hand combat and a bayonet assault course. You will learn how to be quick mentally and overcome your fear by tackling challenging obstacles, some over 40 feet high! You will gain confidence in your equipment by entering the gas chamber. Mentally, your brain will be challenged every day with new skills and tasks, inducting you into "the Army of one". Lastly, you'll make lifelong friends who can share in the trials and tribulations of army basic training and join the life-long club of being a basic training graduate...certainly something to be proud of!"

Click here to go to the page Look at their tight rigid daily Scedule- Where is prayer time and Bible Studies and church etc.???????

"Overcome your fear" it says above, (With weapons and mans games and with a new family called soldiers-They become your new brothers.)

This is what Paul and Peter says about fears and anxieties etc;(Through the Word of God)

1Peter 5:7

⁷Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

^{Phillipians 4:6-8}

⁶ Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; ⁷ and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. ⁸ Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.

Seeking,

What input do you have to share with us about Americas "christians" joining in with a government and signing and swearing an oath, their allegiance to them? Is this not against What Jesus Christ taught and then was crucified for?

Where can I find in Scripture, on this side of Pentacost, God's Words to justify this type of killing?

Paul W. Orloff

Edited June 22, 2010 by GoodDay

GoodDay · June 22, 2010

This Just in;

NYC car bomb suspect pleads guilty, calls it `war' (Link is on Bottom of Story)

Please read underlined part;

NYC car bomb suspect pleads guilty, calls it `war'

By TOM HAYS and LARRY NEUMEISTER, Associated Press Writer Tom Hays And Larry Neumeister, Associated Press Writer 1 hr 30 mins ago NEW YORK – Calling himself a Muslim soldier, a defiant Pakistan-born U.S. citizen pleaded guilty Monday to carrying out the failed Times Square car bombing and left a sinister warning that unless the U.S. leaves Muslim lands alone, "we will be attacking U.S."

Faisal Shahzad entered the plea in U.S. District Court in Manhattan just days after a federal grand jury indicted him on 10 terrorism and weapons counts, some of which carry mandatory life sentences. He pleaded guilty to them all.

Widely circulated snapshots of Shahzad — a U.S.-trained financial analyst and married father of two — show him with a neatly trimmed beard, all smiles and looking carefree behind sunglasses or with his American wife. When led into court Monday, he had on a white skull cap and prisoner's uniform, his beard shaggy and his demeanor serious.

U.S. District Judge Miriam Goldman Cedarbaum challenged Shahzad repeatedly with questions such as whether he looked at the people in Times Square, especially the children, to see who they were or whether he really built the bomb by himself. He repeatedly insisted he acted without help from others in the U.S. and built the bomb "all by myself."

"One has to understand where I'm coming from," Shahzad said calmly. "I consider myself ... a Muslim soldier."

The 30-year-old described his effort to set off a bomb in an SUV he parked in Times Square on May 1, saying he chose the warm Saturday night because it would be crowded with people he could injure or kill. He said he conspired with the Pakistan Taliban, which provided more than $15,000 to fund his operation and five days of explosives training late last year and early this year, just months after he became a U.S. citizen.

He explained that he packed his vehicle with three separate bomb components, hoping to set off a fertilizer-fueled bomb packed in a gun cabinet, a set of propane tanks and gas canisters rigged with fireworks to explode into a fireball. He also revealed he was carrying a folding assault rifle for "self-defense."

Shahzad said he lit a fuse and waited 2 1/2 to five minutes for the bomb to erupt.

"I was waiting to hear a sound but I didn't hear a sound. ... So I walked to Grand Central and went home," he said.

The judge repeatedly interrupted Shahzad, including when he said his plot was to retaliate against the U.S. and the forces of up to 50 other countries that had "attacked the Muslim lands."

Cedarbaum said: "But not the people who were walking in Times Square that night. Did you look around to see who they were?"

"Well, the people select the government," Shahzad said. "We consider them all the same. The drones, when they hit ... "

Cedarbaum interrupted again: "Including the children?"

Shahzad answered: "Well, the drone hits in Afghanistan and Iraq, they don't see children, they don't see anybody. They kill women, children, they kill everybody. It's a war, and in war, they kill people. They're killing all Muslims."

Later, he added: "I am part of the answer to the U.S. terrorizing the Muslim nations and the Muslim people. And, on behalf of that, I'm avenging the attack. Living in the United States, Americans only care about their own people, but they don't care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die."

Cedarbaum asked him if he understood some charges carried mandatory life sentences and that he might spend the rest of his life in prison. He said he did.

At one point, she asked him if he was sure he wanted to plead guilty.

He said he wanted "to plead guilty and 100 times more" to let the U.S. know that if it did not get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, halt drone attacks and stop meddling in Muslim lands, "we will be attacking U.S."

Sentencing was scheduled for Oct. 5.

The Bridgeport, Conn., resident was arrested trying to leave the country May 3, two days after the bomb failed to ignite near a Broadway theater.

Authorities said Shahzad immediately cooperated, delaying his initial court appearance for two weeks as he spilled details of a plot meant to sow terror in the world-famous Times Square when it was packed with thousands of potential victims.

The bomb apparently sputtered, emitting smoke that attracted the attention of an alert street vendor, who notified police, setting in motion a rapid evacuation of blocks of a city still healing from the shock of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attack on the World Trade Center.

According to the indictment issued last week, Shahzad received a total of $12,000 prior to the attack from the Pakistani Taliban through cash drop-offs in Massachusetts and Long Island.

Attorney General Eric Holder said after the plea: "Faisal Shahzad plotted and launched an attack that could have led to serious loss of life, and today the American criminal justice system ensured that he will pay the price for his actions."

FBI New York Acting Assistant Director-in-Charge George Venizelos called the plea "right on the mark" and praised the work of "ordinary citizens who alerted law enforcement of suspicious activity."

Shahzad was accused in the indictment of receiving explosives training in Waziristan, Pakistan, during a five-week trip to that country. He returned to the United States in February.

The indictment said he received $5,000 in cash on Feb. 25 from a co-conspirator in Pakistan and $7,000 more on April 10, allegedly sent at the co-conspirator's direction. Shahzad confirmed the payments in court Monday and said the Pakistan Taliban also gave him more than $4,000 when he left training camp, where he spent 40 days.

Shahzad, born in Pakistan, moved to the United States when he was 18.

Pakistan has arrested at least 11 people since the attempted attack. An intelligence official has alleged two of them played a role in the plot. No one has been charged.

Three men in Massachusetts and Maine suspected of supplying money to Shahzad have been detained on immigration charges; one was recently transferred to New York. Federal authorities have said they believe money was channeled through an ########### money transfer network known as "hawala," but they have said they doubt anyone in the U.S. who provided money knew what it was for.

Click here for source

America's soldiers and supporters are no different that the radical Islam Soldiers!

They need to just get out of there and get back to where they belong and save lives here and there!

This soldiers words are true!!

He needs The Saving Gospel just as much as America's Military does!

How are the two different?

It's all about greed and revenge now!!!

Notice The Irony?? He is a "hero" in his country and American soldiers are hero's in America~ Same Thing!!!

Praise Jesus and Only Jesus! He only can set us free (and Them)! He died for ALL to come to repentance!

Throw down the killing machines and weapons and lift up The Word of God!!

Paul W. Orloff

Edited June 22, 2010 by GoodDay

seeking_truth_1 · June 22, 2010

I have my opinions on war, but that's not why I added to this thread

Bible student is a liar and a deceiver so whatever they have to say lacks ANY credibility

GoodDay · June 22, 2010

Seeking this Topic is about Christians and war.

Bible Student posted something that added to un-Biblical. regardless of yours or anyones feelings toward him or anyone else, it still is a valid post assisting and holding up the Truth about wars being the way of the Devil and not a place for someone who says they Follow Jesus when Jesus does not go into killing grounds to place His followers.

I think you would feel it is fair that I am now asking your personal "opinions" about Christians who kill people in wars?

I would really like to know how you, Seeking, can support them and how you back that up with Scripture?

It's a fair question, is it not? Is not that what this Forum is for?

It will be good to get on to discuss something that matters, and that being wars which are taking innocent lives as we speak.

It's a good time to get past all that same old rhetoric?

What do you feel or think about all that I posted above?

Are you for it, against it-Please share with us, your thoughts?

Paul W. Orloff

I have my opinions on war, but that's not why I added to this thread

Bible student is a liar and a deceiver so whatever they have to say lacks ANY credibility

seeking_truth_1 · June 22, 2010

I agree what the topic is about but you have a man who is warped putting forth a radical agenda that I cannot see supported Biblically

The same man who would say you are not supposed to kill, but though their racism murders on a regular basis

21 ¶ "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'

22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matthew 5:21-22)

Therein lies his hypocrisy

I believe that war is a horrible result of man, at his very worst, wanting ultimate control (Power, wealth etc...)

1 ¶ Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members?

2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.

3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. (James 4:1-3)

However, I do see a case for war made in the Bible.

Jonathan: 1 Samuel 14:1

David: 1 Samuel 17:40

Shamgar: Judges 3:31

Saul: 1 Samuel 15

I also see the requirement to obey the Government regardless of your opinions on certain topics

1 ¶ Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.

6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. (Romans 13:1-6)

In addition I recognize that God is the one who puts leaders in place (both good and bad) for His purposes so to rail against them is to rail against God

19 That night the secret was revealed to ***** in a vision. Then ***** praised the God of heaven.

20 He said, "Praise the name of God forever and ever, for he has all wisdom and power.

21 He controls the course of world events; he removes kings and sets up other kings.

He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars. (***** 2:19-21)

The tension is are these wars ordained by God or not?

Are our leaders Godly men who sought out Gods wisdom and direction or men looking for power, wealth etc...?

I wish war was not a reality but it is and I do not see support Biblically for being 100% against war at all costs

"1 ¶ To everything [there is] a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:

2 A time to be born, And a time to die; A time to plant, And a time to pluck [what is] planted;

3 A time to kill, And a time to heal; A time to break down, And a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, And a time to laugh; A time to mourn, And a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, And a time to gather stones; A time to embrace, And a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to gain, And a time to lose; A time to keep, And a time to throw away;

7 A time to tear, And a time to sew; A time to keep silence, And a time to speak;

8 A time to love, And a time to hate; A time of war, And a time of peace.

9 What profit has the worker from that in which he labors?

10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied.

11 ¶ He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end." (Ec 3:1-11 NKJV)

As much as I wish it is not necessary, sometimes you will have to fight

June 22, 2010

Does anybody feel that there is something inherently contradictory in the following advertisement for the U S Army Chaplain Corp?

Watch the video.

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/

Is it New Testament consistant to be a US Army Chaplain? Or does it conflict with the above post?

If war is wrong as you say that would make the soldiers sinners, or in other words exactly the same as any Molokan that gambles, drinks, or has premarital sex at one of the Molokan parties. Wouldn't they be open to the same promise of redemption as all of us, wouldn't they possibly need a teacher, someone to read and learn the Bible with, someone to just listen? Not everyone joins the Military for the chance to kill people, just as not every Molokan attends the parties for the chance to get drunk, trash the place and fornicate. Just as no one should say that every Molokan doesn't know Christ, or every Molokan takes joy in the racism practiced by the Molokan Church, you shouldn't paint others with the same broad brush, not even nenash.

seeking_truth_1 · June 22, 2010

One other thought

We have the ability to openly dialog on subjects like this is as a result of the freedoms that were purchased by those who saw fit to fight against those who would seek to take those rights away

If it wasn't for the Revolutionary war we'd have no nation

If it wasn't for WWII we'd be speaking German or Japanese now

and

If our country doesn't get it's act together, we'll be speaking something other than English very soon

June 22, 2010

One other thought

We have the ability to openly dialog on subjects like this is as a result of the freedoms that were purchased by those who saw fit to fight against those who would seek to take those rights away

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,

If it wasn't for the Revolutionary war we'd have no nation

Luke 17:21 the kingdom of God is within you.

If it wasn't for WWII we'd be speaking German or Japanese now

Acts 2:8-11 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

If our country doesn't get it's act together, we'll be speaking something other than English very soon

1 Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the languages of men and of angels

As much as I wish it is not necessary, sometimes you will have to fight

2 Cor 10:4-6 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

GoodDay · June 23, 2010

Does anybody feel that there is something inherently contradictory in the following advertisement for the U S Army Chaplain Corp?

Watch the video.

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/

Is it New Testament consistant to be a US Army Chaplain? Or does it conflict with the above post?

If war is wrong as you say that would make the soldiers sinners, or in other words exactly the same as any Molokan that gambles, drinks, or has premarital sex at one of the Molokan parties. Wouldn't they be open to the same promise of redemption as all of us, wouldn't they possibly need a teacher, someone to read and learn the Bible with, someone to just listen? Not everyone joins the Military for the chance to kill people, just as not every Molokan attends the parties for the chance to get drunk, trash the place and fornicate. Just as no one should say that every Molokan doesn't know Christ, or every Molokan takes joy in the racism practiced by the Molokan Church, you shouldn't paint others with the same broad brush, not even nenash.

Your exactly right!!

They can all repent of their sins equally!

Many Molokans know Christ.

Not because of their background or heritage though- That's impertinant to God.

No one is saved by thier color , name, heritage etc..

Usually parties that have have extreme drinking from any group would (should) turn off a Christian from even thinking of going.

GoodDay · June 23, 2010

I am going to answer the first response in a second but I just saw this.

This answer went even shallower than your other response!!

You are saying that we have this freedom to dialogue because " the freedoms that were purchased wby those who saw it fit to fight against those who would take our rights away."

In that sentence alone, you are right as "man" saw it fit. Not God, but man. That's greed.

You are saying it was Ok to kill people so we can keep our language????? That's sounding like your comments against Molokans?

The Molokans True Forefathers had a lot of things right- War being of the devil, is one of them.

You are saying that OUR freedom is worth more than others being able to breath? Or for them to never even get to hear the Gospel? Picture a family getting blown to bloody shreds Seeking. Picture their loved ones that are peaceful loving people. Picture them mamed and damaged for life because a "Christian" soldier blew them up on accident? Now Picture God looking down and seeing His Name being used in this????? His Wrath will be poured out strong to the unrepented!! I don't mean the Bin Laden and them. I mean the ones using His name in vain while they kill others!!?? UNLESS They repent.

Are you OK if your whole neighborhood was bombed with everyone you knew? What if This Government you are in love with was looking for a fugitive and they decided to blow up southern California and say it was in The Name of God? You would be Ok with that?

VERY SHALLOW POST AND NOT OF JESUS CHRIST~~~~

Seeking , I say this because you are doing it.

You are acusing ALL Molokans of being racists etc.. YES, it is a huge problem and it sickens me, but they are all not.

BUT, you sound like a rascist now with this post!

Who cares if we are forced to speaking Japanese?

You sound as if it is possible for another to take your salvation away?

Paul Orloff

One other thought

We have the ability to openly dialog on subjects like this is as a result of the freedoms that were purchased by those who saw fit to fight against those who would seek to take those rights away

If it wasn't for the Revolutionary war we'd have no nation

If it wasn't for WWII we'd be speaking German or Japanese now

and

If our country doesn't get it's act together, we'll be speaking something other than English very soon

Edited June 23, 2010 by GoodDay

GoodDay · June 23, 2010

They ALL have warped thoughts that are not of Biblical Scriptures. BUT, they are following thier leaders. right? So, with your logic , what is the difference? You and them are fighting in the same manner, which is just what Christ died for. (Part of the reasons)'

The Tongue Can racially murder AND it can ask forgivness.

A bomb or a Bullet can Kill but it cannot ask forgivness. The killer can though.

You are trying to divert this and I am surprised seeking.

You rehtorical litmus test has become something of no value. It is day in and day out week after week. People can get all the answers they need from old posts or better yet from The Bible itself.

Jeremy Kornoffs posts awhile back are really starting to pop out in Truth right now.

Some of the last post by other members show that this place needs a change. We are all sick of cult talk and isms and Jesus=God stuff. All this stuff takes time and I as many others are still trying to grasp on to some of these man made words; Trinity, Rapture etc.. The Holy Spirit will convict them to The Truth is all ways if they so want it.

Every time I log in or receive an eMail notification it's the same stuff and it's making me feel like I am going back in time.

Lets talk about How Jesus spoke to us today or How He blessed us by some people we met or how we were able to Glorify Him etc..

If I am going to stay, lets talk about real Christian topics?

Read the end of Romans 12 before you read 13; Read all of it but here is the very end;

¹⁷Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. ¹⁸If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. ¹⁹Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"^[d]says the Lord. ²⁰On the contrary:

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."^[e]²¹Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I agree what the topic is about but you have a man who is warped putting forth a radical agenda that I cannot see supported Biblically
The same man who would say you are not supposed to kill, but though their racism murders on a regular basis

21 ¶ "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'

22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matthew 5:21-22)

Therein lies his hypocrisy

I believe that war is a horrible result of man, at his very worst, wanting ultimate control (Power, wealth etc...)

1 ¶ Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members?

2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.

3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. (James 4:1-3)

However, I do see a case for war made in the Bible.

I am not talking about back then Seeking??? Unless you are an Isrealite of old living before God died on the Cross, that has no meaning for comparison for these wars of today.

Jonathan: 1 Samuel 14:1

David: 1 Samuel 17:40

Shamgar: Judges 3:31

Saul: 1 Samuel 15

I also see the requirement to obey the Government regardless of your opinions on certain topics

Seeking, you know very well America is split becauce God is out of the picture. This is a Democracy where THE PEOPLE vote the President in, not God. By proxy you support abortion, stem cell research, etc.. Because the same Government supports them? They support and thrive on wars! They are all wrong and clearly NOT of God. God allows them but again PEOPLE (flesh) put them into office. If God was in the picture, all this garbagr would not be going on. Does God take 10 years and counting for the "best" soldiers to go hunt down the bad guy(s)?? He could just zap him????? But, His wrath is not being poured out at this moment right??? Is he not storing up for judgment time??

I read a grat comment on a facebook post; You are either completely for God or completly against God. (something like that). That is True!!!

Same with a government. If on is going to subject themselves to the Government, then they are guilty for all they do wrong that is intentionally wrong, like wars and abortion etc..

People complain about tax increases and say they are evil? Who cares about that? What about the lives that are taken away prematuraly in killing wars?? And from people who say their are of Christ???

What about all the tax money that goes to killing people?

People flip out over Universal Health Care?? That's awesome!!!! It will saves lives!!!! Why are people gung ho about war and then they think Obama is some evil man trying to equalize everyone with some sociallized stuff while he is working on this Health Bill? Maybe he really is just trying to help save some lives here in America? (While he Oks lives to be taken in other countries -yeesh)

America has little freedom in the Christian sect. This is seen by how the churches uses that freedom by doinf very little. Our freedom is what will eventually kill us.

1 ¶ Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.

6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. (Romans 13:1-6)

In addition I recognize that God is the one who puts leaders in place (both good and bad) for His purposes so to rail against them is to rail against God

To rail against a evil leader is NOT railing against God. A "Christian" who signes his life over to the leaders for war etc.. is Mocking and spitting on God just as they did on the Cross!

19 That night the secret was revealed to ***** in a vision. Then ***** praised the God of heaven.

20 He said, "Praise the name of God forever and ever, for he has all wisdom and power.

21 He controls the course of world events; he removes kings and sets up other kings.

He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars. (***** 2:19-21)

The tension is are these wars ordained by God or not?

Are our leaders Godly men who sought out Gods wisdom and direction or men looking for power, wealth etc...?

I wish war was not a reality but it is and I do not see support Biblically for being 100% against war at all costs

Seeking, If you wish war was not a reality, do the best thing a Godly person can do and turn from supporting them? Turn your face from churches who use God's Holy Word, to justify these wars as being from Him? Christians are called to be a peacful people!

"1 ¶ To everything [there is] a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:

2 A time to be born, And a time to die; A time to plant, And a time to pluck [what is] planted;

3 A time to kill, And a time to heal; A time to break down, And a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, And a time to laugh; A time to mourn, And a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, And a time to gather stones; A time to embrace, And a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to gain, And a time to lose; A time to keep, And a time to throw away;

7 A time to tear, And a time to sew; A time to keep silence, And a time to speak;

8 A time to love, And a time to hate; A time of war, And a time of peace.

9 What profit has the worker from that in which he labors?

10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied.

11 ¶ He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end." (Ec 3:1-11 NKJV)

As much as I wish it is not necessary, sometimes you will have to fight

A man only fights when they choose too. NO ONE ever HAS to fight. Our flesh (The devil) pushes us into a fight. God ALWAYS gives us a way out. We have the choice.

Jesus Christ is our ultimate example; Did He fight on His way to The Cross or on The cross?? Nope-

The whole answer to war and revenge and fighting are in that ONE single example.

Why did not God pour out His wrath on Apostle Paul? He was persicution yours and my Brothers and Sisters?? If that was today, shouldn't we just zap him with Capital Punishment because State leaders say to do it?

Did not Peter and Paul and The Apostles have chances to kill guards?? By Americas standards they had all they right too??

Seeking, you are a Christian right? You have received The Holy Spirit, Right?? Then when I ask to use examples on this side of The Day of Pentacost, can you please do that? Not The Book of Revalation either.

One last example of why wars of today cannot be justified with wars of old.

Jeremiah 19:9 (NIV)9 I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.’

According to the Scripture above and several others about Cannabalism. Jeffry Dahmer needed only to say " God Called me to eat people," and we as Christians would have to set him free.

Paul William Orloff

GoodDay · June 23, 2010

Sorry for all the grammar errors- I cannot edit for some reason. My reply is all in green Paul O

They ALL have warped thoughts that are not of Biblical Scriptures. BUT, they are following thier leaders. right? So, with your logic , what is the difference? You and them are fighting in the same manner, which is just what Christ died for. (Part of the reasons)'

The Tongue Can racially murder AND it can ask forgivness.

A bomb or a Bullet can Kill but it cannot ask forgivness. The killer can though.

You are trying to divert this and I am surprised seeking.

You rehtorical litmus test has become something of no value. It is day in and day out week after week. People can get all the answers they need from old posts or better yet from The Bible itself.

Jeremy Kornoffs posts awhile back are really starting to pop out in Truth right now.

Some of the last post by other members show that this place needs a change. We are all sick of cult talk and isms and Jesus=God stuff. All this stuff takes time and I as many others are still trying to grasp on to some of these man made words; Trinity, Rapture etc.. The Holy Spirit will convict them to The Truth is all ways if they so want it.

Every time I log in or receive an eMail notification it's the same stuff and it's making me feel like I am going back in time.

Lets talk about How Jesus spoke to us today or How He blessed us by some people we met or how we were able to Glorify Him etc..

If I am going to stay, lets talk about real Christian topics?

Read the end of Romans 12 before you read 13; Read all of it but here is the very end;

¹⁷Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. ¹⁸If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. ¹⁹Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"^[d]says the Lord. ²⁰On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."^[e]²¹Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I agree what the topic is about but you have a man who is warped putting forth a radical agenda that I cannot see supported Biblically
The same man who would say you are not supposed to kill, but though their racism murders on a regular basis

21 ¶ "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'

22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matthew 5:21-22)

Therein lies his hypocrisy

I believe that war is a horrible result of man, at his very worst, wanting ultimate control (Power, wealth etc...)

1 ¶ Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members?

2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.

3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. (James 4:1-3)

However, I do see a case for war made in the Bible.

I am not talking about back then Seeking??? Unless you are an Isrealite of old living before God died on the Cross, that has no meaning for comparison for these wars of today.

Jonathan: 1 Samuel 14:1

David: 1 Samuel 17:40

Shamgar: Judges 3:31

Saul: 1 Samuel 15

I also see the requirement to obey the Government regardless of your opinions on certain topics

Seeking, you know very well America is split becauce God is out of the picture. This is a Democracy where THE PEOPLE vote the President in, not God. By proxy you support abortion, stem cell research, etc.. Because the same Government supports them? They support and thrive on wars! They are all wrong and clearly NOT of God. God allows them but again PEOPLE (flesh) put them into office. If God was in the picture, all this garbagr would not be going on. Does God take 10 years and counting for the "best" soldiers to go hunt down the bad guy(s)?? He could just zap him????? But, His wrath is not being poured out at this moment right??? Is he not storing up for judgment time??

I read a grat comment on a facebook post; You are either completely for God or completly against God. (something like that). That is True!!!

Same with a government. If on is going to subject themselves to the Government, then they are guilty for all they do wrong that is intentionally wrong, like wars and abortion etc..

People complain about tax increases and say they are evil? Who cares about that? What about the lives that are taken away prematuraly in killing wars?? And from people who say their are of Christ???

What about all the tax money that goes to killing people?

People flip out over Universal Health Care?? That's awesome!!!! It will saves lives!!!! Why are people gung ho about war and then they think Obama is some evil man trying to equalize everyone with some sociallized stuff while he is working on this Health Bill? Maybe he really is just trying to help save some lives here in America? (While he Oks lives to be taken in other countries -yeesh)

America has little freedom in the Christian sect. This is seen by how the churches uses that freedom by doinf very little. Our freedom is what will eventually kill us.

1 ¶ Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.

6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. (Romans 13:1-6)

In addition I recognize that God is the one who puts leaders in place (both good and bad) for His purposes so to rail against them is to rail against God

To rail against a evil leader is NOT railing against God. A "Christian" who signes his life over to the leaders for war etc.. is Mocking and spitting on God just as they did on the Cross!

19 That night the secret was revealed to ***** in a vision. Then ***** praised the God of heaven.

20 He said, "Praise the name of God forever and ever, for he has all wisdom and power.

21 He controls the course of world events; he removes kings and sets up other kings.

He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars. (***** 2:19-21)

The tension is are these wars ordained by God or not?

Are our leaders Godly men who sought out Gods wisdom and direction or men looking for power, wealth etc...?

I wish war was not a reality but it is and I do not see support Biblically for being 100% against war at all costs

Seeking, If you wish war was not a reality, do the best thing a Godly person can do and turn from supporting them? Turn your face from churches who use God's Holy Word, to justify these wars as being from Him? Christians are called to be a peacful people!

"1 ¶ To everything [there is] a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:

2 A time to be born, And a time to die; A time to plant, And a time to pluck [what is] planted;

3 A time to kill, And a time to heal; A time to break down, And a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, And a time to laugh; A time to mourn, And a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, And a time to gather stones; A time to embrace, And a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to gain, And a time to lose; A time to keep, And a time to throw away;

7 A time to tear, And a time to sew; A time to keep silence, And a time to speak;

8 A time to love, And a time to hate; A time of war, And a time of peace.

9 What profit has the worker from that in which he labors?

10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied.

11 ¶ He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end." (Ec 3:1-11 NKJV)

As much as I wish it is not necessary, sometimes you will have to fight

A man only fights when they choose too. NO ONE ever HAS to fight. Our flesh (The devil) pushes us into a fight. God ALWAYS gives us a way out. We have the choice.

Jesus Christ is our ultimate example; Did He fight on His way to The Cross or on The cross?? Nope-

The whole answer to war and revenge and fighting are in that ONE single example.

Why did not God pour out His wrath on Apostle Paul? He was persicution yours and my Brothers and Sisters?? If that was today, shouldn't we just zap him with Capital Punishment because State leaders say to do it?

Did not Peter and Paul and The Apostles have chances to kill guards?? By Americas standards they had all they right too??

Seeking, you are a Christian right? You have received The Holy Spirit, Right?? Then when I ask to use examples on this side of The Day of Pentacost, can you please do that? Not The Book of Revalation either.

One last example of why wars of today cannot be justified with wars of old.

Jeremiah 19:9 (NIV)9 I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.'

According to the Scripture above and several others about Cannabalism. Jeffry Dahmer needed only to say " God Called me to eat people," and we as Christians would have to set him free.

Paul William Orloff

June 23, 2010

I don't think Jesus Christ is as peaceful as you would first think.

Revelation 19

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.

13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,

18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."

19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Doom of the Beast and False Prophet

20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

21And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

GoodDay · June 23, 2010

Still waiting for an answer

seeking_truth_1 · June 23, 2010

If that was to me, I'm not sure what "answer" you are looking for

I've explained that, though war is a horrible reality, I cannot see Biblical support for 100% pacifism at all costs

Not sure what more you are looking for

For you to say the Old Testament was for then and not for now seems misguided

The Bible is the Bible and all of it has relevance and application now as it always has

I cannot see dismissing the 10 Commandments because it was written "a long time ago"

You can make the same argument for the New Testament too

Are you going to dismiss it's relevance because it 2000 years old

That's what the emergent "church" is attempting to do

If we took the 100% pacifist route to it's logical end, you would not have police either

It would be the wild west

Why would God even bother to mention the need to respect authority if what He "really meant" was to "disregard it"

This IS NOT a Salvation issue and should not be a divisive

If you desire to be a 100% pacifist, then that is your choice

Thank God there is provision for people being entrusted to maintain law and order

The other item that does really concern me is your references to "The Molokans True Forefathers had a lot of things right"

There are no "molokan forefathers"

Who cares about that?

Talk to me about the Christian "forefathers"

Based upon my studies, the cult of molokanism is and has been exactly that... A cult

Perhaps a time centuries ago there might have been a Russian Christians who could be identified as molokan, but that identifier in the 21st century is worthless

GoodDay · June 23, 2010

Lets completely get off the Molokans kick once and for all.

What did Jesus Christ die for Seeking?

What are we as Christians called to do?

Where do you see that war is ok now? I see not ONE thing since Jesus died for ALL.

Is it not a Salvational issue? Think about it? I am talking about "christians" that say they Have The Holy Spirit and are called to war that they voluntarilly take an oath and swear their allegeince to do what ever their leaders tell them? They say shoot, you shoot? They are THEIR property. They belong to man that tells them what to do now- How is that of God??

I think it is a salvational issue?

I would love for you to use your Bible knowledge and use the New Testament to show how a person with The Holy Spirit in them could go to war for their American duty?

What about the oaths???? Are you saying it doesn't matter to take them?

Lets talk about this-

Where did you hear that wars were OK in this day and age after Jesus Died? Are you following a church eldership or the True Word of God?

What are we as Christians called to do?

Where do you see God in these wars?

KevinPolyaNazaroff · June 23, 2010

You rehtorical litmus test has become something of no value. It is day in and day out week after week. People can get all the answers they need from old posts or better yet from The Bible itself.
Jeremy Kornoffs posts awhile back are really starting to pop out in Truth right now.

Some of the last post by other members show that this place needs a change. We are all sick of cult talk and isms and Jesus=God stuff. All this stuff takes time and I as many others are still trying to grasp on to some of these man made words; Trinity, Rapture etc.. The Holy Spirit will convict them to The Truth is all ways if they so want it.

Every time I log in or receive an eMail notification it's the same stuff and it's making me feel like I am going back in time.

Lets talk about How Jesus spoke to us today or How He blessed us by some people we met or how we were able to Glorify Him etc..

If I am going to stay, lets talk about real Christian topics?

Paul,

This is not all addressed to you, but you brought our some points that I want to comment about.

Please don't take it like I am aiming this toward you or anybody in particular.

So....

The deity of Jesus Christ is the core tenet of Biblical Christianity.

Why should we be sick of that topic.

It carries a lot more weight than pacifism.

What is everybody's problem.

People get on here and dish out their opinion.

Then all of a sudden they themselves get offended, and start blaming the bible based Christians on here for making Christianity's core tenets the main issue.

Also, what "other members posts" are you talking about that show that change is needed here?

I do not agree with some who say that there is only hate and anger on this site and amongst its members.

I believe people are being convicted of the truth, and some are trying to fight these convictions, knowing that to fully surrender to the Lord would require giving over our current status as "molokans".

I am very disheartened at the amount of "hurt feelings" that are being harbored by some of the current and "former" members.

At some point, we need to leave our emotions behind, and let the truth of the Word fill our hearts and minds.

Regardless of what our emotions are "feeling".

If we are true Christians, we would delight in the truth, even when it convicts us and makes us rethink our view and opinions.

BTW,

I hope to share my opinion about war here shortly.

It is a good topic.

Kevin Nazaroff

GoodDay · June 23, 2010

You rehtorical litmus test has become something of no value. It is day in and day out week after week. People can get all the answers they need from old posts or better yet from The Bible itself.
Jeremy Kornoffs posts awhile back are really starting to pop out in Truth right now.

Some of the last post by other members show that this place needs a change. We are all sick of cult talk and isms and Jesus=God stuff. All this stuff takes time and I as many others are still trying to grasp on to some of these man made words; Trinity, Rapture etc.. The Holy Spirit will convict them to The Truth is all ways if they so want it.

Every time I log in or receive an eMail notification it's the same stuff and it's making me feel like I am going back in time.

Lets talk about How Jesus spoke to us today or How He blessed us by some people we met or how we were able to Glorify Him etc..

If I am going to stay, lets talk about real Christian topics?

Paul,

This is not all addressed to you, but you brought our some points that I want to comment about.

Please don't take it like I am aiming this toward you or anybody in particular.

So....

The deity of Jesus Christ is the core tenet of Biblical Christianity.

Why should we be sick of that topic.

It carries a lot more weight than pacifism.

What is everybody's problem.

People get on here and dish out their opinion.

Then all of a sudden they themselves get offended, and start blaming the bible based Christians on here for making Christianity's core tenets the main issue.

Also, what "other members posts" are you talking about that show that change is needed here?

I do not agree with some who say that there is only hate and anger on this site and amongst its members.

I believe people are being convicted of the truth, and some are trying to fight these convictions, knowing that to fully surrender to the Lord would require giving over our current status as "molokans".

I am very disheartened at the amount of "hurt feelings" that are being harbored by some of the current and "former" members.

At some point, we need to leave our emotions behind, and let the truth of the Word fill our hearts and minds.

Regardless of what our emotions are "feeling".

If we are true Christians, we would delight in the truth, even when it convicts us and makes us rethink our view and opinions.

BTW,

I hope to share my opinion about war here shortly.

It is a good topic.

Kevin Nazaroff

Kevin,

I appreciatte and understand what you are saying and I do agree with some of it.

When I said "Jesus=God stuff," I was reffering to everytime a unknown poster comes on here, they get treated as though they are not Christians because they don't see it that way, or choose not too or what ever may be the reason.

One cannot talk about Jesus Christ enough and I agree!! ALL revolves around Him.

In His Name, I am very troubled by what America's church Has done with That very Name. To see soldiers get praised in a church is very troubling. It is not a light issue. The trinty and all the other issues that have been proved on here for 5-6 years or so are very tiny compared to the topic I named this Thread.

I have a lot of people think that I am hot-headed or they may say things about what I post and how it sounds etc.. People know me and how I am. And If I get passionattly angered at Christians trying to justify these wars of today. I am Ok with that. To me, people who get oppressed or improperly treated or racially streotyped etc.. I do get upset, but I am Ok with that because I will stand for the ones being unproperly treated. I don't get angry at frivolous things because they are just that. If someone is driving slow, or cuts me off, it's no biggee as I have done that. If a Columbian man gets called a wetback, I get upset. I get upset at how much of this Country looks down upon them they know nothing about. I get upset when people who have no reason to complain, put down all mexicans as if they are they reason America is hurting. I get upset when Americans blame Mexicans on things they did not do, or when some Christians want no insuarance for other Americans that cannot afford it because it will cover some illegal immigrants (they think). I get upset some rich wealthy American Christians squak about taxing their hard earned money. Money that can save lives and go to disabled, Seniors, children with handicaps, Universal Insuarance etc.. I get even more upset with thet do not care less about thier taxes going to these wars that kill innocent children and woman and men and any life. I get upset when they forget about thier lives and some peoples lives here. If a Christians says they believe in war because our "God appointed" leaders do, they they should be happy to get taxed if the Government chooses to. Christians know they own not one thing but God does.

Everytime I read the news and see so many innocent people get killed for reasons that could have been avoided I get upset. I get upset when people put God's name onto it and say that He is Ok with it. Not because they know He is Ok with it, but so they can enjoy the last of America's freedom still in ways that Jesus Christ did not teach us to. People cannot keep a civil discussion on here for many reasons. I , am one of them.

I have tried to be removed from here but Admin purposely did not end my contract.

So yes, I do get angry when it comes to other peoples lives and I am Ok with that. And I want seeking to use Scripture in all ways to give clarification to Christians being in wars that kill and are not of God. It's a big issue. Biggest one I can think of. Makes Russian in the Molokan churches seem like nothing.

Seeking, likes to suck as much as he can out of others asking the same ole questions over and over. It gets old. He likes to pull out peoples posts from the past to get thier name out in the open again to try and get them to post again.

I have been on for a few years and a lot of good has come out of it through some bad times.

I can see Molokans reasons for getting upset at what they read now. The moderators should just leave the junk out. It says "No Bashing"- Well I am asking them to uphold thier rules? People in person have told me thier post do not get through. They should ALL be let through or ALL moderated and ALL bashing etc... left out.

When my post are out of line, They should warn me and the others.

There is a feeling that many posters that we do not know are someone we truly do know.

I Truly am disheartened by wars and Jesus' Name being tied to them when thier is no sign of Him being a part of it. I am troubled how people can say that if someone does not believe in the Trinity then they are not saved, and then innocently say these wars that kill are all cool and go past that and support them in the Name of The one who Died for ALL!!

So, since seeking is doing what he accusses most of the others doing I want to know that his opinions on issues like war, do not line up with the Words of Jesus Christ?

So let's have a discussion about this??

Lets see how God's Word speaks to us directly? Let's let the Holy Spirit Teach us and Guide us? Let's go straight to the Word of God and talk about wars and christians taking part of them or supporting them etc..

I am not a angry person, But I do get angry when Jesus Christ is trampled on for man's Glory and I am Ok with that- Those are natural feelings and if I didnt have them I would be concerned.

I would rather be a bit angry defending Jesus and innocent lives, rather than carry a gun with a smile!

I am concerend about what God thinks about me in those issues- Other's will get angry at my anger but that's between them and God and His Word

KevinPolyaNazaroff · June 23, 2010

Kevin,
I appreciatte and understand what you are saying and I do agree with some of it.

When I said "Jesus=God stuff," I was reffering to everytime a unknown poster comes on here, they get treated as though they are not Christians because they don't see it that way, or choose not too or what ever may be the reason.

One cannot talk about Jesus Christ enough and I agree!! ALL revolves around Him.

In His Name, I am very troubled by what America's church Has done with That very Name. To see soldiers get praised in a church is very troubling. It is not a light issue. The trinty and all the other issues that have been proved on here for 5-6 years or so are very tiny compared to the topic I named this Thread.

I have a lot of people think that I am hot-headed or they may say things about what I post and how it sounds etc.. People know me and how I am. And If I get passionattly angered at Christians trying to justify these wars of today. I am Ok with that. To me, people who get oppressed or improperly treated or racially streotyped etc.. I do get upset, but I am Ok with that because I will stand for the ones being unproperly treated. I don't get angry at frivolous things because they are just that. If someone is driving slow, or cuts me off, it's no biggee as I have done that. If a Columbian man gets called a wetback, I get upset. I get upset at how much of this Country looks down upon them they know nothing about. I get upset when people who have no reason to complain, put down all mexicans as if they are they reason America is hurting. I get upset when Americans blame Mexicans on things they did not do, or when some Christians want no insuarance for other Americans that cannot afford it because it will cover some illegal immigrants (they think). I get upset some rich wealthy American Christians squak about taxing their hard earned money. Money that can save lives and go to disabled, Seniors, children with handicaps, Universal Insuarance etc.. I get even more upset with thet do not care less about thier taxes going to these wars that kill innocent children and woman and men and any life. I get upset when they forget about thier lives and some peoples lives here. If a Christians says they believe in war because our "God appointed" leaders do, they they should be happy to get taxed if the Government chooses to. Christians know they own not one thing but God does.

Everytime I read the news and see so many innocent people get killed for reasons that could have been avoided I get upset. I get upset when people put God's name onto it and say that He is Ok with it. Not because they know He is Ok with it, but so they can enjoy the last of America's freedom still in ways that Jesus Christ did not teach us to. People cannot keep a civil discussion on here for many reasons. I , am one of them.

I have tried to be removed from here but Admin purposely did not end my contract.

So yes, I do get angry when it comes to other peoples lives and I am Ok with that. And I want seeking to use Scripture in all ways to give clarification to Christians being in wars that kill and are not of God. It's a big issue. Biggest one I can think of. Makes Russian in the Molokan churches seem like nothing.

Seeking, likes to suck as much as he can out of others asking the same ole questions over and over. It gets old. He likes to pull out peoples posts from the past to get thier name out in the open again to try and get them to post again.

I have been on for a few years and a lot of good has come out of it through some bad times.

I can see Molokans reasons for getting upset at what they read now. The moderators should just leave the junk out. It says "No Bashing"- Well I am asking them to uphold thier rules? People in person have told me thier post do not get through. They should ALL be let through or ALL moderated and ALL bashing etc... left out.

When my post are out of line, They should warn me and the others.

There is a feeling that many posters that we do not know are someone we truly do know.

I Truly am disheartened by wars and Jesus' Name being tied to them when thier is no sign of Him being a part of it. I am troubled how people can say that if someone does not believe in the Trinity then they are not saved, and then innocently say these wars that kill are all cool and go past that and support them in the Name of The one who Died for ALL!!

So, since seeking is doing what he accusses most of the others doing I want to know that his opinions on issues like war, do not line up with the Words of Jesus Christ?

So let's have a discussion about this??

Lets see how God's Word speaks to us directly? Let's let the Holy Spirit Teach us and Guide us? Let's go straight to the Word of God and talk about wars and christians taking part of them or supporting them etc..

I am not a angry person, But I do get angry when Jesus Christ is trampled on for man's Glory and I am Ok with that- Those are natural feelings and if I didnt have them I would be concerned.

I would rather be a bit angry defending Jesus and innocent lives, rather than carry a gun with a smile!

I am concerend about what God thinks about me in those issues- Other's will get angry at my anger but that's between them and God and His Word

Paul,

I see more passion in your posts, then anger.

You are passionate about what you believe, and it shows in the way you discuss it.

I like the fact that you are willing to express your views in a transparent manner.

I myself like to debate certain issues, and also get fired up about them.

I do not mean to hurt the person I am debating with, but that sometimes happens, and I try my best to keep it civil.

But..., what I am trying to say is, I would rather discuss the scriptures with someone who is passionate about them, then someone who is more worried about their reputation and saying the "politically correct thing".

That is the same reason I enjoy reading posts by seeking, coffee, and even steadfast.

I would rather hear the truth and deal with the difficult issues now, rather than when it is too late.

So now...., I would like to share a scripture that expresses the character of God.

You might say, "What do these scriptures have to do with war?"

They have nothing to do with war, but they help us to understand a little bit of who God is, and why God does what He does.

6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

7 The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. Ge 6:6-8 NASB

Isn't it interesting that the God of unconditional love is the same God who was sorry that He even made us.

God just finished making man and proclaiming how good His creation is, and then, God is sorry He made us and wants to destroy us.

This leads to the biggest "but" in the whole bible.

8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God is a God of many characteristics.

God is truly worthy to be praised.

Kevin Nazaroff

seeking_truth_1 · June 23, 2010

When it comes to Bible related discussions, I try (if at all possible) to stick to issues that are non-negotiables when it comes to the tenets of Christianity

The short list is:

1) The Deity of Jesus

2) The inerrancy of Scripture

3) How Salvation is Secured

When someone wholly denies the Deity of Jesus, that needs to be addressed

When someone wholly denies the inerrancy of Scripture, that needs to be addressed

When someone advocates they need to "work" for their Salvation, that needs to be addressed

Those are the issues and if you cannot get those straight, nothing else will be straight either

If you have someone advocating one must be baptized to secure Salvation, I'll address that issue

Also, why would you seek to "limit" my ability to explain Biblically a case for war to only a portion of the Bible

Isn't the entire Bible inerrant?

Now Paul, are you saying if one does not adopt a 100% pacifist stance they are not a Christian?

If you are, Salvation is no longer by Grace but something else

Isn't God the One who raises up leaders and put them down?

Isn't God the One who establishes authority?

Isn't God in charge and couldn't He end all war in an instant if He saw fit?

That will occur someday and I cannot wait to enjoy that but, in the interim, we need to deal with what is happening now

Yes Christ died for all "while yet we were sinners" including those responsible for horrific crimes against humanity

People such as Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and yes Jeffery Dalmer et al

Yes Christ died for them too and I have not idea where they are spending eternity although I believe Dalmer did make a profession of faith

Irrespective of that profession of faith, there are still consequences for his actions

Should all those individuals not have accountability for their actions?

I also believe there is a Biblical case for the death penalty though it too is a horrible reality

Should that not apply in these extreme cases

As to the "molokan kick", the cult of molokanism has entrenched in every aspect of it the s&l and all the garbage seems to stem from that

That's why I'm here

Perhaps you are here for a different reason

GoodDay · June 23, 2010

When it comes to Bible related discussions, I try (if at all possible) to stick to issues that are non-negotiables when it comes to the tenets of Christianity

The short list is:

1) The Deity of Jesus

2) The inerrancy of Scripture

3) How Salvation is Secured

When someone wholly denies the Deity of Jesus, that needs to be addressed

When someone wholly denies the inerrancy of Scripture, that needs to be addressed

When someone advocates they need to "work" for their Salvation, that needs to be addressed

Those are the issues and if you cannot get those straight, nothing else will be straight either

If you have someone advocating one must be baptized to secure Salvation, I'll address that issue

Also, why would you seek to "limit" my ability to explain Biblically a case for war to only a portion of the Bible

Isn't the entire Bible inerrant?

Now Paul, are you saying if one does not adopt a 100% pacifist stance they are not a Christian?

If you are, Salvation is no longer by Grace but something else

Isn't God the One who raises up leaders and put them down?

Isn't God the One who establishes authority?

Isn't God in charge and couldn't He end all war in an instant if He saw fit?

That will occur someday and I cannot wait to enjoy that but, in the interim, we need to deal with what is happening now

Yes Christ died for all "while yet we were sinners" including those responsible for horrific crimes against humanity

People such as Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and yes Jeffery Dalmer et al

Yes Christ died for them too and I have not idea where they are spending eternity although I believe Dalmer did make a profession of faith

Irrespective of that profession of faith, there are still consequences for his actions

Should all those individuals not have accountability for their actions?

I also believe there is a Biblical case for the death penalty though it too is a horrible reality

Should that not apply in these extreme cases

As to the "molokan kick", the cult of molokanism has entrenched in every aspect of it the s&l and all the garbage seems to stem from that

That's why I'm here

Perhaps you are here for a different reason

Ill wait ubtil you answer my questians Seeking,

Are you saying that if a person believes in the Diety of Christ and that the knowledge of Salvation by Grace is whats needed for that person to spend an eternity with God?

We are all sinners and need to know that and to turn fron our sin.

Wars with out doubt kill people and going even further as to kill many innocent people.

This is my simple question. How can a person who says they are a Christian possibly be saved when they voluntarily sign there life of to leaders and be an American soldier when they know people will be murdered? How can a person be a soldier for God and a Soldier for America?

How many of the innocent that get murdered are Christians and how many will never get to hear the Gosple? (this is not a predestination topic).

Salvation is free but does it not come with a price? What is that price?

Christians are soujurners;

Phil 3:20

20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 13

14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. 15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

1Peter 2

9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

11Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. 12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

Jesus tell us not to take oaths;

The Military oaths as I posted have words and writting where the Soldiers voluntarily give thier life and allegiance to thier leaders and to America. Honestly, now that you mention about the Salvation thing, It really has me thinking. They are serving two masters.

Sure we all fail at times and may slip in our walks but with continual repetance we carry forth. We have The Spirtual enemy to Battle with (Ephesians 6). War is a physical and fleshly as it can get. If a person comes is called by God while killing people, sure He can be saved. Lets use Apostle Paul as an example;

He was persicuting God's own family and He spared him. He was called to be an Apostle;

Ephesians 4

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a] says:

"When he ascended on high,

he led captives in his train

and gave gifts to men." 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Where in the New Testament does THe Holy Spirit say He will guide us into killing wars? It is not anywhere.

Another thought;

An Militatry Oath seems to have a person being baptised by man completely making them part OF the world as they are in it.

Christians are to be in the world but not part of it.

Paul W. Orloff

P.s. Bible in no way upholds The death penalty. If it did, Jesus' killers would be guilty of it. Apostle Paul would be. God's wrath is not for us to use prematuraly or at anytime for obvious reasons.

Just imagine if all Christians were a peaceful people and lived outside political stuff as that we are call to be, as they are of the world, how many souls would be saved. And if we prayed for the Goverment and the leaders as we are called too, how awesome that would be. Also, just because they say war and Capitol Punishment (some states) are Ok, does not mean our obediance to them allows us to turn our back on God and follow them.

Christians should Hold Bibles and not guns.

seeking_truth_1 · June 23, 2010

Paul:

"Salvation is free but does it not come with a price? What is that price?"

Jesus paid the price when He stated "It is finished" then rose again 3 days later

Your statement seem like a bit of a contradiction

If you are asking me to provide basis for the Bible making a case for war, I've done that

I'm sorry you are trying to limit my selection to just the New Testament

I do not agree with your position on that

I'm not sure what more you want me to answer

Could you pare it down so I don't miss anything?

Thanks

GoodDay · June 23, 2010

Paul:

"Salvation is free but does it not come with a price? What is that price?"

Jesus paid the price when He stated "It is finished" then rose again 3 days later

Your statement seem like a bit of a contradiction

If you are asking me to provide basis for the Bible making a case for war, I've done that

I'm sorry you are trying to limit my selection to just the New Testament

I do not agree with your position on that

I'm not sure what more you want me to answer

Could you pare it down so I don't miss anything?

Thanks

Seeking;

To be truthful an honest, I have not seen you make any sort of case For Christians supporting war (The name of the post).

I have seen you prove there are wars and the Bible talk about them.

What I am seeing is you not answering any questions.

You can use The whole Bible- But use it in proper context. The way you are justify a Christian going to war is soley by old Testament.

If war is Ok for a Christian to voluntarilly take part in then so is Abortion and all else the Goverment support.

If Jesus Christ just dies and ressurected thats one thing.

Did not the Holy Spirit come on The Day of Pentacost?

What does the Bible tell you about Him?

How and where does The Holy Spirit guide and teach others to go and fight and kill in revenge?

Where does The Holy Spirit teach about taking another mans life in Capitol Punishment? That's revenge too. An eye-for an eye tooth for tooth. It's The Old way, not the new.

We are ALL deserving of death, am I right? One who breaks one commandment breaks them all or one law breaks them all.

A murderer is no better or worse than you or I in the eyes of God as Jesus Christ died for all of us equally.

Just because some states say Capitol Punishment is OK, that makes it OK??

How do you see these wars as a place for Them who are called to do The Work of the Lord?

After reading the Military oaths over and over and reading The Word of Jesus Christ, it is saying that, that person is NOT part of God's family but owned by America.

And yes, just that alone would make a person void in God's family.

But, they, just as the "enemy" can still come to the Cross and be washed clean-

I see nothing about Christians killing people being Ok in the Bible.

Free-will comes in to play here. A soldier today goes to war by his own Free-will and not the desires of God.

I would love to hear you answer my other posts.

Lets make it easier;

seeking_truth_1 · June 23, 2010

I see a case for war in the Bible as I do for capital punishment

Not sure how much more "honest" I can get

As a Christian, I believe in the entire canon of Scripture regardless if it's in the Old or New Testament

I've cited the verses regarding war that I honestly believe are appropriate though, as I have stated before, war is an unfortunate reality

God ordained and was with those He sent (Number 10:9, Judges 20:18, 1 Chronicles 5:20, Revelation 19 and many others)

You obviously do not agree and I cannot change that

Since God established all authority (though you do not agree) the laws are a part of that

1 ¶ Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.

2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. (Romans 13:1-2)

Seems quite clear to me

There is a big difference between forgiveness and consequences

There are cases where people who committed murder become Christians yet will still have to deal with the consequences

People can use drugs, ruin their bodies, get saved and yet their bodies may not ever recover from the damage done

One other observation that I do not see as Biblical nor realistic is your statement:

"Just imagine if all Christians were a peaceful people and lived outside political stuff as that we are call to be, as they are of the world, how many souls would be saved"

How can we be in the world if you are looking to become socially Amish?

Scripture states

11 ¶ Now I am departing the world; I am leaving them behind and coming to you. Holy Father, keep them and care for them––all those you have given me––so that they will be united just as we are.

12 During my time here, I have kept them safe. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.

13 "And now I am coming to you. I have told them many things while I was with them so they would be filled with my joy.

14 I have given them your word. And the world hates them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not.

15 I’m not asking you to take them out of the world, but to keep them safe from the evil one.

16 They are not part of this world any more than I am. (John 17:11-16)

19 ¶ This means I am not bound to obey people just because they pay me, yet I have become a servant of everyone so that I can bring them to Christ.

20 When I am with the Jews, I become one of them so that I can bring them to Christ. When I am with those who follow the Jewish laws, I do the same, even though I am not subject to the law, so that I can bring them to Christ.

21 When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.

22 When I am with those who are oppressed, I share their oppression so that I might bring them to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone so that I might bring them to Christ.

23 I do all this to spread the Good News, and in doing so I enjoy its blessings. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

Again, as this is not salvation issue so you are more than welcomed to continue this discussion but there's not much more I can add

GoodDay · June 24, 2010

I see a case for war in the Bible as I do for capital punishment

Not sure how much more "honest" I can get

As a Christian, I believe in the entire canon of Scripture regardless if it's in the Old or New Testament

I've cited the verses regarding war that I honestly believe are appropriate though, as I have stated before, war is an unfortunate reality

God ordained and was with those He sent (Number 10:9, Judges 20:18, 1 Chronicles 5:20, Revelation 19 and many others)

You obviously do not agree and I cannot change that

Since God established all authority (though you do not agree) the laws are a part of that

1 ¶ Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.

2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. (Romans 13:1-2)

Seems quite clear to me

There is a big difference between forgiveness and consequences

There are cases where people who committed murder become Christians yet will still have to deal with the consequences

People can use drugs, ruin their bodies, get saved and yet their bodies may not ever recover from the damage done

One other observation that I do not see as Biblical nor realistic is your statement:

"Just imagine if all Christians were a peaceful people and lived outside political stuff as that we are call to be, as they are of the world, how many souls would be saved"

How can we be in the world if you are looking to become socially Amish?

Scripture states

11 ¶ Now I am departing the world; I am leaving them behind and coming to you. Holy Father, keep them and care for them––all those you have given me––so that they will be united just as we are.

12 During my time here, I have kept them safe. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.

13 "And now I am coming to you. I have told them many things while I was with them so they would be filled with my joy.

14 I have given them your word. And the world hates them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not.

15 I'm not asking you to take them out of the world, but to keep them safe from the evil one.

16 They are not part of this world any more than I am. (John 17:11-16)

19 ¶ This means I am not bound to obey people just because they pay me, yet I have become a servant of everyone so that I can bring them to Christ.

20 When I am with the Jews, I become one of them so that I can bring them to Christ. When I am with those who follow the Jewish laws, I do the same, even though I am not subject to the law, so that I can bring them to Christ.

21 When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.

22 When I am with those who are oppressed, I share their oppression so that I might bring them to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone so that I might bring them to Christ.

23 I do all this to spread the Good News, and in doing so I enjoy its blessings. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

Again, as this is not salvation issue so you are more than welcomed to continue this discussion but there's not much more I can add

Seeking,

You are dodging around everything.

Try these;

What about the oath that Soldiers take?

You are for abortion too?

You are for Homosexuality being brought into society?

Those are from "God ordained" leaders and from your words you TRULY do support killing of babies just as you do with the killings of these wars.

Don't be Scriptually silly about using Pauls writung about, when he was with a Jew he was like a jew etc..

You again are saying it is OK to do anything and be anyone to spread God's word? I can become a pimp and a drug addict to preach to them?

Your use of Scriture is not consitant unless you stay on the same Molokan bashing stuff.

According to what you are saying, then you have no right to say anything about Molokans who attend and partake whole heartedly. You may be condemening them that are being being a Molokan to fit in with them to share the Gospel. You are openly saying that it is Ok-To Worship Maxcim with them that do also in hope to win them over.

The old Testament is clear about God being with them through His peoples battles.

You are completely dissmissing the most important part of the Bible which is Jesus Christ. Not just Him that came down and died and ressurected. You are remaining in that area and not moving forward. Their is a 50 day gap where they all had to wait for The Holy Spirit to return. with out that, One cannot be born again or born from above. With out the dwelling of The Holy Spirit we are still left to using our own thoughts and desires to choose what to beleive and how to beleive it.

If a person intentioanlly takes anothers life in ANY way, that makes them a murderer. In ANY scenario, that makes them a murderer.

You are right about the Amish being to much to themselevs and not going into the world to shine The Word of God. They may go a bit to far from how we see it, but they are not murderers. Also, this is not about them.

It's about "christians" intentionally signing their lives over to America and being baptized into her evil ways. You should know what Jesus Christ says about oaths- I cannot keep posting it.

Christians are filthy people cleaned by The Blood of Jesus Christ. They are given white garments. Christians will slip and fail and get repent and grow etc.. This is a process that The New Testament talks about. A Christian cannot practice sinning and intentionally live a sinful life because it says that,but those words give us hope when we screw up. When we fail, we want to be convicted and mad to feel shamful and grab on closer to The Lord.

I am talking about mean who KNOW they will either kill people or be part of a group that will kill people. They train to kill. They are sent to far off lands to hunt down them that attacked us to kill them. They are not going there to spread the Gospel. Missionarries do and God Bless them for doing what God calls them to do and they do it many times knowing thier own life will come to an end for the sake of others and to lay down thier life to reach others rather than reaching others and laying down thier lives.

I allways wondered why I was brought up to stay away from politics- So when I thought I knew better, I voted for Bush on his second term. Then he decided it was time to use the wrath of America and hunt down them that attacked this country on 9/11. There was no God in the picture. If you want to say that God was on Bush's side and showing him the way to go into a war then your god is a foriegn God. Then I voted for Obame because he had some great ideas that will help people and I thought he was going to halt this war. I was wrong about him and the wars. He too is following the same god that bush is. Obama supports abortion. Eventaully I was convicted and saw I was in error and repented about voting and taking part in a god-less leadership. My God does not make me obey thier ideals that are against God Himself.

God wanting us to obey are leaders means we are stuck with having to go along with all the laws and taxes and everthing that they lay out for us. Some of it is great and some is evil. If us obeying them, brings us to dis-obeying God, I think you can figure out what is right to do.

Again,

You are missing the whole point;

If a person gets drafted and forced or beaten to go into battle, God will handle that accordingly. My dad was 17 as I mentioned and at that age, they mold you and brainwash you to hate the ones they want you to kill. They do not teach you to go and sit down and read the Bible with them. My dad chose to go and in time he was convicted of that sinful life and came to repetance. I am sure you know what propaganda is.

My main point is being a person who calls themselves a Christian and then willfully goes through a long process to become an America soldier and in that process you become thier slave and you lose many rights. You are theirs now, not Gods. Because churches say its' ok does not mean it's Ok. Thats a whole another story.

Seeking, why does your opinion justify these last 8 years or so in Iraq which has killed so many innocent people as being OK? What gives you or any other person to say that God is giving His Blessings on these wars?

Is it because they attacked us first?

Is it because this Country is so great that we have the right to do anything regardless of peoples lives to try and uphold are freedom? Is that the way it works? Is it because money says "in God we trust?" If you trust God then why all these wars? That's putting trust in man. They will fail. They are failing and they will fail. It is terrible that people get killed in terrorism, but does a Christian have any part in going to kill them?

How many people do you know that say they are Christians and then they join the forces so they can get a college degree? How many people do you know that go to war just to go and kill the enemy and do not even beleive in God? How many people have you seen in your lives that "gave" thier lives to America to go kill the enemy and then they come back with missing body parts and mental issues and then they are dumped by that same Government??

Look at all these wars and you tell me that they are just like the battles in the old Testament??

We are a failing greedy Country who wants no one to mess with us. We want to be able to go to church and feel happy when we leave and thank the Soldiers for our freedom to do that. Think about them that are dead now for just being in the wrong place that those soldiers murdered. The are more heroic that the soldier. The soldiers got weapons that will blow up a city from miles away. They are cowards. They are not there for God.

American has so may enemies now because she is a greedy arrogant Country on the verge of losing all freedom. We actually are a country who lives in fear. This fear is shown by how much time and effort an money is put into trying to keep freedom. If God was blessing this country, we would be a loved country by everyone. We have such a wonderful diverse cultural nation, and them who are for wars usually are against the idea that in another 30 years or so us white folk will be a minority. Why is that? I think it's an awesom thing because that's God's Kingdom is gonna be. It will not be a white Conservative Republican kingdon but a perfect kingdom designed by God.

I pray that ALL American, especially them that say they are Christians can at least start to act as if they are.

We need to realize that our time can come at anytime and the end is nearing. We need to love whoever is next to us. Who cars if they can barely speak english? Lets help them. Our ancestors were not fluent when they came here and chances are no one will be. It doesn't matter. We live near Mexico and we will allways be amongst them. Some are here trying to feed there families and it is not the right way, but it just is what it is. Soon, we will be thier enemies and many will be proud. If there is a war agin, people will be proud to go to battle to save their country.

The thing is though, is that NOTHING belongs to us. We are blessed with whatever God gives us or doesn't give us. When we die we dont bring anything with us, and we will all be equally bare and them who were billionares will be next to them that lived week to week and to them that lived under a bridge. Christians under a bridge are many times more at peace.

We are called to not flip out when the stocks drop, or when houses get taken away or when we lose work and when we struggle. If Americas church acted as a church, everyone would be ok for the most part. Americas churches worry about if they will be able to get the permit to add a 10 million dollar structure to the 30 million one they allready have and at the same time the have homless people living a block away.

The Book of Acts says it all. That's the way the church should be. It started well becaue the obeyed God and now we have a million denominations of Christians because of simple disobediance. The early church were a loving peaceful people who spread the Gospel.

The church of today does a lot of good but a tiny fraction of what it could be doing if they would get away from being envolved with politics and getting as far away from wars as possible.

Christians are called to help save souls and reach the lost. Them that are lost in the wars thinking they are doing God a duty need to be reached more than them in bars who don't care about God.

Islam radical fanatics are serving thier god and American soldiers are serving thier god.

They are no different than each other. They are just killing each other for nothing. God is aware and allowing it but His Wrath must be ready to burst upon all of them.

Paul W. Orloff

June 24, 2010

Paul..Please read this doc concerning how God feels about war.

What Does God Say About War?

The Case for Pacifism

In a time when the world is still divided by war and conflict, Christians have a duty and responsibility to think through the morality of the use of deadly force, especially when it comes to the issue of war. Many Christians are strict pacifists and lean heavily of the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:38-41

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.

That sure sounds like a command for pacifism, doesn’t it? And Jesus also (in the very same sermon), affirms the Law written in the Old Testament:

Matthew 5:17-20

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Christian pacifists then point to a foundational teaching of the Old Testament, citing the command, “You shall not kill,” found in the Ten Commandments. So how can we, as Christians, ever justify the use of deadly force, even in times of war? Doesn’t action of this nature violate the fundamental teaching of Jesus and the Old Testament (which Jesus affirmed as well)?

You Shall Not Kill?

Well, let’s begin with a careful reading of the Scripture. “You shall not kill” is actually not a command found in the Bible. The command from scripture in the original language actually says “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word for ‘murder’ literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.” Interestingly, most of us are familiar with this definition of murder, because it is reflected in the penal codes of our country. The Penal Code of California presents this definition of murder:

187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

Malice is a form of evil intent that separates ‘murder’ from ‘killing’. Even today there are acceptable forms of killing that lack this kind of evil intent. These forms of killing exist as exceptions to the murder laws of the United States. In California, for example, it is actually legal (according to penal code sections 187, 196 and 197) to kill someone, so long as one of the following conditions are met:

A person kills someone accidentally

A person is trying to defend him or herself and prevent his or her own murder (self defense)

A person is trying to prevent someone from entering his or her house to commit some violent felony

A person is trying to prevent the murder of someone else (protecting an innocent)

In addition, there are exceptions for agents of the government, so long as one of the following conditions are met:

An agent of the court is carrying out a court order (the death penalty)

A police officer is acting to stop a fleeing felon who may escape to harm others

In all these situations, killing is actually LEGAL and justifiable, and these kinds of exceptions exist in the Penal Code of every state in America. Even those who don’t accept the existence of God or the authority of the Bible have no problem reasoning through the necessity for laws like this; laws that allow for deadly force to be used to accomplish some greater good. Even atheists would agree that laws like this are good and necessary. And I bet that Christian pacifists would also agree.

It’s interesting to note, however, that exceptions such as these are NOT the invention of modern humans. They are simply a reflection of ancient Biblical Law. The Bible is the source for our modern law and these exceptions come straight from the pages of scripture:

An accidental killing is not murder:

Exodus 21:12-13

Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate.

Numbers 35:22-25

But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally or, without seeing him, drops a stone on him that could kill him, and he dies, then since he was not his enemy and he did not intend to harm him, the assembly must judge between him and the avenger of blood according to these regulations. The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled.

A killing performed in self defense or in defense of one’s home is not murder:

Exodus 22:2

If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed

A killing performed in an attempt to save the life of an innocent person is not murder:

Exodus 2:11-12

One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. (God did not judge Moses as a murderer because he was protecting the life of the slave)

Genesis 14:14-16

When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan. During the night Abram divided his men to attack them and he routed them, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus. He recovered all the goods and brought back his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the other people. (God did not judge Abram as a murderer because he was protecting the life of Lot)

Our modern laws regarding killing and murder, (the very laws that even atheists and Christian pacifists would fight to defend), are based on Biblical Laws that date back thousands of years!

Extending a Good Moral Principle

Now let’s just think about this philosophically for a minute. Look at just a couple of the exceptions to the murder law: the exceptions for self defense and for the defense of an innocent. Few of us would argue against these exceptions. None of us wants to be charged with murder just because we stopped some crazed attacker from trying to kill us or trying to kill one of our children, even if we had to use deadly force to accomplish our own defense. But what if there were TWO attackers trying to kill you? Would the exception still apply if deadly force had to be used to stop both of them? Would this still be legal and moral? Yes, it would. What if there were ten attackers? 100 attackers? 1,000 attackers? Would the mere number of attackers change the legal or moral question here? No. That’s why it is philosophically and theological viable for us to consider the notion of a “just war”. While many would simply see any war as mass murder, there are certain conditions under which war may be ‘justifiable’ in the same way that some killings are exceptions to the murder law. Of course, the burden for justification is VERY high and we can argue about whether or not this burden has been met all you want, depending on which war we are talking about. But I think it is fair and reasonable to say that the moral and legal conditions do exist to justify the use of deadly force, IF the conditions have been established.

The Real Cause of War

And I know that is a big “IF”! We need to stop for a minute and think about the true cause of war. Why does ANY war begin? Why would we EVER find ourselves considering war in the first place? If we are honest about this, we can usually point to some initial point of conflict that is simply the direct result of human sin. We all have an intuitive sense that evil exists in the world, and the Bible tells us where this evil lives:

Romans 3:10-18

There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one. Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they keep deceiving; the poison of asps is under their lips, whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace have they not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The truth is that the world is filled with sinful people, and war is simply one of many results of sin. Now many people would argue that RELIGION is the cause of war. But to say that EVERY war has been fought on theological grounds is simply untrue. Given free reign, humans will find something to fight about. It may be about religion, but if not, it will be about some other ideology or simply about greed and power. While religion may be one excuse to go to war, it is only that: one excuse. But remember that there will always be SOME excuse. So, why do we find ourselves fighting? Think about it for a minute. It comes down to our very nature as greedy, prideful, power-hungry humans. And this nature is described perfectly in the scriptures:

James 4:1-2

What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. And you are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel.

So, let’s be straight about the cause of war. As Christians we are commended NOT to murder. We are also given several exceptions and allowed to KILL. If we do this however, we had better make sure that we are RESPONDING to sin, rather than being yet another SOURCE of sin.

So, What Does the Scripture Say?

And there are plenty of examples in the Scripture of ways in which God’s people have been commanded to respond to sin by engaging in war. The Old Testament is replete with examples of God ordering His people to go to battle with the nations around them:

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

Joshua 4:12-13

And the sons of Reuben and the sons of Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh crossed over in battle array before the sons of Israel, just as Moses had spoken to them; about 40,000, equipped for war, crossed for battle before the LORD to the desert plains of Jericho.

Numbers 31:1-2

Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Take full vengeance for the sons of Israel on the Midianites; afterward you will be gathered to your people."

Deuteronomy 20:15-17

Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not of the cities of these nations nearby. Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you…

Wow, that sounds pretty brutal. Why would God command all of this? Is he commanding murder? Not from His perspective. But he is commanding his people to kill. The difference is that God (being omniscient) knew these surrounding nations perfectly. He knew their hearts and he knew their future if they were allowed to exist near the nation of Israel. He knew they would seek Israel’s destruction (gee, things don’t sound like they’ve changed all that much)! God has that kind of knowledge:

Isaiah 55:9

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.

God knew that the nations that surrounded Israel would eventually lead them away from God and seek the destruction of Israel as a nation:

Deuteronomy 20:17-18

But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you in order that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 9:4-5

Do not say in your heart when the LORD your God has driven them out before you, 'Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land,' but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is dispossessing them before you.

In essence, God is commanding the Israelites to act here in self defense. Knowing the future and every possible twist of time and action, He alone knew that the Israelites would have to use deadly force to protect themselves, so he authorized the military action.

But there is another exception to the murder law that God also invokes, using war as a tool. If you remember, we talked about the right that an agent of the court has to carry out a legal order of the court. One such order is the death penalty for those who have committed the worst of crimes. When agents of the court kill someone who has been found guilty of one such crime, they are not then charged themselves with murder. This is an exception, and one we have already discussed. As it turns out, God has also invoked this exception when judging what the Bible calls ‘wickedness’. Just as we might condemn a man to the death penalty for something wicked that he has done, God does the same thing. Think about it for a minute. If there is a God, is He not the supreme judge of wickedness?

Some people argue that God is just an invention of the ancient Jews to justify their desire for war, but don’t think for a minute that God only uses war to judge NON-Israelites. God is FAIR, and He is not the invention of the Jews. He often uses war to judge the wickedness of his own people, just as he uses war to judge the wickedness of other nations. When his own people had turned from Him and from doing what was right, He utilized war as an agent of fair and just punishment:

Jeremiah 5:15-17

“Behold, I am bringing a nation against you from afar, O house of Israel,” declares the LORD. “It is an enduring nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language you do not know, nor can you understand what they say. Their quiver is like an open grave, all of them are mighty men. And they will devour your harvest and your food; they will devour your sons and your daughters; they will devour your flocks and your herds; they will devour your vines and your fig trees; they will demolish with the sword your fortified cities in which you trust.”

Why would God punish people (even His own people) in this way? Because without justice, mercy is meaningless. When we don’t punish the assailant in a case, we in turn end up punishing the victim and the victim’s family, who are crying for justice. And this would be yet another sin that WE are now committing. To NOT punish evil is to commit yet another evil:

James 4:17

Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

In the end, justice requires that we judge evil. And in our lives here on earth, God has given us the institution of GOVERNMENT to do just that; punish those who do what is wrong:

Romans 13:1-4

Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.

The Bible clearly teaches that God utilizes war to protect and defend the innocent and to punish the wicked. The Bible is also clear that God has given the institution of government the right and authority to do the very same thing. It is from this reasoning that we can see that there is a theological basis for governments to go to war, but once again, the criteria is limited and the standard is very high. But before we get to all of that, let’s take a look at the Life of Jesus and see if we can learn something about what God says about war.

So What Would Jesus DO?

Many Christian pacifists cite the words of Jesus and make the argument that Jesus would never condone ANY kind of use of deadly force, even the obvious exceptions to murder allowed by the Old Testament Law. They would typically cite these verses:

Luke 6:27-31

“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.”

But I do think it’s important for us to interpret Jesus’ words in light of his entire life, not just a particular sermon. It’s the LIFE of Jesus that helps us to understand how he feels about the just use of deadly force. Really examine this. If you look at the life of Jesus you will notice that he seems very comfortable with both the notion of self defense and aggressive action:

Jesus Believed That There Were Some Causes That Called for Aggressive Action

Jesus was quick to act aggressively to DEFEND what He believed was right:

John 2:13-16

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

Jesus Called for the Use of the Sword

Remember that in Biblical times, the only ‘sidearms’ available to people for their own protection were knives or swords. Today’s equivalent weapons would be pistols and automatic rifles. Jesus told his disciples to arm themselves with swords:

Luke 22:36

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”

Why would he say this? At the very least, he is calling his disciples to prepare themselves for their own defense. And the sword (an instrument that can be used to kill someone) is evidently allowable in the eyes of Jesus.

Jesus Never Condemned the Life, Calling or Duty of Soldiers

It is this understanding of the appropriate use of force that gives Jesus a proper perspective on the role of soldiers. Maybe that’s why Jesus never commented negatively on any soldier he ever came in contact with. Here’s a good example:

Luke 3:12-14

Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?" "Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them. Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely-be content with your pay."

Jesus had a great opportunity to tell these soldiers that they should disarm and become pacifists, but he didn’t do it! Heck, this would have been a great opportunity for Jesus to begin an entire SERMON on the topic of pacifism and the evil of war, but he also didn’t do that! In fact, there were times in Jesus’ life where he commended soldiers (men who made a living waging wars)!

Matthew 8:5-12

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him." The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Jesus Agreed with the Father’s Perspective on War

We already know how God feels about war as we have described from his actions and commandments found in the Old Testament. We also know that God does not change:

Malachi 3:6

“I the LORD do not change”

James 1:17-18

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Keep this in mind as you read these passages:

John 10:30

“I and the Father are one.”

John 14:9-10

Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.”

John 14:24

“These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”

1 John 5:6-7

This is the one who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Jesus and the God the Father are in perfect agreement about EVERYTHING. When one talks, the other is talking. When one acts, the other is acting. They are in harmony. So whatever God says about war in the Old Testament is still true about war in the New Testament. Jesus feels the same way about war that God does, because He IS God.

Jesus is Himself a Warrior

With that in mind, it’s much easier to understand and accept the way that Jesus is then depicted in the Book of Revelation, where he is described as a warrior at the end times:

Revelation 19:11-21

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

So, is this Jesus the pacifist that some would like us to accept? If we, as Christians, as to model our lives after the life of Christ and be imitators of Jesus (Ephesians 5:1), then we will also find ourselves embracing the view of war that Jesus clearly demonstrated in his actions in the New Testament. While it is true that HE never resisted those who would eventually put him on the cross, this effort on the part of Jesus was a unique and specific action designed to accomplish the Salvation that all of us so desperately need. It was not evidence of his pacifism, for if this was true, all the examples I’ve given you from his life and from the scripture would make no sense at all.

So, How Should Christians Respond?

Disciples of Jesus have asked this question for generations. While the vast majority of Christians DO believe that there are times when it is appropriate to go to war, they have struggled throughout the ages to understand WHEN exactly God would honor such action. And clearly Christians have made their share of mistakes in this regard. Augustine (354 - 430) and Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) struggled to formulate what is now called the “Just War Theory”. They were simply trying their best to understand when it would be morally right to engage in military action based on the teaching of the Bible. As a result, several principles have evolved through the ages that can help us understand how we, as Christians, are to respond to the idea and reality of war. Let’s take a look at some guidelines that Christians might follow as they think about the notion of war:

Everything Must Begin With Prayer

For the Christian, no thought of entering into war can begin without our first consulting God to ask him for wisdom on the part of our leaders, mercy for our enemies and peace for all those involved:

1 Timothy 2:1-4

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 5:43-46

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Philippians 4:6-7

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Prayer is a powerful weapon, even before we resort to the weapons of war:

2 Corinthians 10:3-4

For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.

Peace Must Be Pursued FIRST

Even before we ever consider the option of war, we must pursue the path of peace. For me, this is where Jesus’ teaching from the Sermon on the Mount has its context. Jesus calls us to turn the other cheek, and resist the impulse to strike back. But let’s think about this for a minute. If our goal is to commit the least sin possible, are we accomplishing this if we ignore an atrocity of evil that is about to be inflicted upon an innocent? If we fail to stop evil when we can, are we not then committing evil (James 4:17)? Are Jesus’ commands in the Sermon on the Mount license for us to sit still and allow the harm of others? Or did God also give us the wisdom to do what we can to be at peace, while recognizing that there may be times when we will have to act in order to avoid sinning as James so clearly described and as Paul wrote as well:

Romans 12:18

If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

‘IF’ it is possible. It seems clear from this passage in scripture that there may be times when it is not. But it is also clear from God’s Word that we are to strive for peace and do everything we can to preserve it:

Psalm 34:14

Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it

The challenge, of course, is to know when we simply MUST act to the extent that we can (“as far as it depends on you”) to stop evil. First we must use diplomacy and negotiation, but when that path reaches its end, it is time to love those that hate us by containing their activity in a way that prevents them from harming the innocent. The protection of the innocent must be a primary motive for us as we consider war.

There Must Be A Moral Reason For War

Motive is incredibly important to God. War is the last line of defense to protect those that are threatened by evil aggressors. It is not to be used to advance our worldview or force our views. It is not to be used to exact revenge, or to harm or exploit those who disagree with us. War is justified when all else has failed and war is the only option to DEFEND those who are threatened by the deadly force of an evil aggressor.

Proverbs 16:2

All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD.

But unfortunately, there WILL be times when war is the only way:

Ecclesiastes 3:8

…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

So it’s important for us to have God’s Holy motives in mind as we begin to contemplate the act of war:

Revelation 19:11-12

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.

If You Can’t Win, Don’t Begin

But beyond this, we also need to make sure that our actions are within our means (“as far as it depends on you”). We need to know with certainty, BEFORE WE BEGIN TO ACT, that we can accomplish our goals:

Luke 14:31-33

“Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace.”

Why is this so important? Because it is tragic enough to have to kill, even to accomplish what we would consider a greater goal, but if we DO end up killing people and then FAIL to accomplish the goal, we have simply become another source of evil, and that is something that will not please God.

War Should Not Cause More Evil Than It Eliminates

To decide to kill to accomplish a greater good is a very difficult thing to have to choose. But when we have certainty that our actions will eliminate more evil than they create, the choice is a little easier. For this reason we must be very wise about how we proceed:

Psalm 7:3-5

O LORD my God, if I have done this and there is guilt on my hands — if I have done evil to him who is at peace with me or without cause have robbed my foe — then let my enemy pursue and overtake me; let him trample my life to the ground and make me sleep in the dust.

Even in the midst of war, we must always seek to minimize the aggression needed to accomplish the goal:

Deuteronomy 20:10-12

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.

Wisdom and Counsel Must Be Sought Before Acting in War

This may sound simplistic, but the worst decisions are those that are made without the depth and variety of opinions from all sides of the issue. The best decisions are then possible once we have the wisdom of others to support our choices:

Proverbs 20:18

Make plans by seeking advice; if you wage war, obtain guidance.

Proverbs 24:6

…for waging war you need guidance, and for victory many advisers.

War Should be Waged by Legitimate Governments

God has given us the institution of government for a reason. Governments have the responsibility of protecting the innocent and punishing those who do wrong. We are not to act as individuals and take matters into our own hands. We must patiently trust the government for matters such as these:

Romans 13:1-3

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

It may be tough to submit ourselves to the government under which we live, particularly if this government is engaged in a war with which we disagree. But we must do our best to work within our limits and respect the authority that God has placed over us:

1 Peter 2:17

Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

Civilian Casualties Should Be Minimized

This is perhaps one of the most difficult tasks to achieve, but our Christian worldview demands that we minimize suffering in our effort to eliminate the greater threat. This means we simply MUST do all that we can to avoid civilian causalities. God does NOT honor violence done toward those who are innocent and undeserving:

Psalm 10:2, 8

In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak, who are caught in the schemes he devises... He lies in wait near the villages; from ambush he murders the innocent, watching in secret for his victims.

James 5:1, 6

Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you... You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Prisoners of War Must Be Treated Justly

Wars inevitably create and result in prisoners of war. It is imperative that we take the high road in our handling of these prisoners. Even in ancient times, when harshness in war was the accepted cultural pattern of the time, the Old Testament Jews were instructed to mitigate the harm they did to prisoners and their land:

Deuteronomy 20:19-20

When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees of the field people, that you should besiege them?

It was the custom of the time for all defeated peoples to be utterly destroyed, and although God also commanded the Israelites to do this in the most severe of situations, the Old Testament allows for the women and children of these captives to remain unharmed (Deuteronomy 20:13-14 and Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

We Must Support One Another

Times of war are miserable, heartbreaking and tragic. They are filled with stress and hardship, even when they are waged on the opposite side of the world, far from the native soil of the combatants. It is during times like these that Christians need to behave in a way that honors our God:

Galatians 6:2

Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

During times of war, we should draw close to each other and demonstrate the love of Christ in our own lives and relationships.

And Ultimately, We Must Trust God

Finally, we must do our best to recognize that God alone is our source of strength. It’s easy to start to trust our own military prowess. Living in the strongest nation in the world, we sometimes have a sense of invincibility. September 11th, 2001 marked a new era for many of us in that regard. Our confidence was shattered in many ways. Maybe that’s why there was a short burst of spirituality following that terrible day. People were reminded by that one terrible act that the only true source of strength and safety is the God of the universe:

Psalm 27:1-3

The LORD is my light and my salvation — whom shall I fear? The LORD is the stronghold of my life — of whom shall I be afraid? When evil men advance against me to devour my flesh, when my enemies and my foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though an army besiege me, my heart will not fear; though war break out against me, even then will I be confident.

Proverbs 21:31

The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but victory rests with the LORD.

It’s in difficult times of war that even the faithful begin to wonder if things will ever return to normal or if peace will ever be ours again…

What God Said

But for those of us who are Christians, we do have a promise of peace in which we can place our trust and hope. God has promised us that a day is coming when peace will come at the hands of God, in spite of our human failings and without any achievements on our part:

Isaiah 2:4

He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

This is a comforting promise, but even more assuring is the fact that in this future time of peace, Jesus will know each of us personally, restore us and heal our pain and sin:

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

Jesus will put an end to all conflicts, all war and all strife as he takes the throne once and for all:

Psalm 46:10

“Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.”

A day is coming when we, as humans will NOT have to make the difficult decision for war. A day is coming when God will be the final judge and Jesus will be the final peacemaker. Until then, the scripture does tell us, however, that there will be times when deadly force is the only way to stop a greater evil, and it is within the teaching and example of God for us to make that difficult choice for war, should the time ever come. As Christians we must seek God's will and trust Him, even in the most difficult of times.

seeking_truth_1 · June 24, 2010

Paul:

With all due respect, you obviously are passionate about this subject and it would also appear you have some deep seated angst

So much so you are resorting to hyperbolic rhetoric to try and get your point across

No where did I ever say I was pro abortion or homosexuality

I'm also not pro illegal immigration and not pro "free" socialized medicine so you can add those to the list

I actively engage my representatives in these areas by letter, email fax etc...

I also pray that God would intervene to address these issues

To continue, I'm not a fan of war but you don't seem to be hearing that

I really don't believe I'm avoiding anything

I've cited contextural Scripture to say there is a time and/case (not in all cases) for war and you don't agree

If you want to discuss the particular issues regarding a specific conflict we can do that but I do not agree about a blanket pacifism

You have the freedom to pursue that agenda I have the right to disagree

Also I do not equate actively participating in a cult with this topic

Two different issues

Again this IS NOT a Salvation issue so why continue to be divisive?

GoodDay · June 24, 2010

Seeking;

Your fixation on cults and what Molokanism has become, may be an actual stumbling block.

You are saying that some wars are ok and not others.

What is a good and proper needed war, that God clearly called Christians to take up arms and kill others in His name? What is a bad and improper war? Isn't that in itself a reason for showing that people who say they are christians should not get involved?

Give me ONE example of a person who deserved Capitol Punishment and Please tell me why you think that??

How do you you seeking, know when God is in control of these wars as you say.

If you are giving your allegence to the Government and obeying them and submitting to them and in that justify supporting war, you must allow them to open or close the borders as they please. If they force homosexuality onto us then, can't we just say they may be hearing God tell them something that we cannot hear?

Are illegal immigrants breaking God's laws? Or man's laws? Who owns land?

I pray that Americas Christians can open their hearts to see that wars are not a place for them. They need to really question why they are believing it is Ok- Is it because, people tell them its ok? Are churches falsely teaching this?Because you have shown nothing to suppport it unless Jesus Christ remains out of the picture.

What did Jesus Christ die for?

What is a Christians life supposed to be like?

Christian= Christ-like

Soldiers= Not Christlike.

How many of Jesus's Enemys did He kill??

seeking_truth_1 · June 24, 2010

Since Jesus is God the Son, He allowed ALL of it

Please read Romans 13 again

1 ¶ Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished.

3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you.

4 The authorities are God's servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God's servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong.

5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.

6 Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. (Romans 13:1-6)

It does not say laws you agree with or do not agree with... It says ALL authority

Isn't God sovereign?

As to the cult of molokanism, as long as another "way" is advocated, the extra book remains and racism is practiced at the "church" level, it is a cult

That is a Salvation issue whereas War/Pacifism is not

It's still a different topic

GoodDay · June 24, 2010

Since Jesus is God the Son, He allowed ALL of it

As to the cult of molokanism, as long as racism is practiced at the "church" level and the extra book remains, it is a cult

With that logic, then Molokans are truly the chosen people.

If the death of Jesus Christ and his resurrection means something to you and The Day of Pentacost does not as you say and war is Ok jus like The Old Testament, then Molokans may just be who they say they are.

I don't beleive so, but that is what I conclude from this discussion and your logic and opinion towards God and the days of old and today.

Molokans dont teach to go out and kill innocent people, so be carful what you say about them.

Paul W. Orloff

seeking_truth_1 · June 24, 2010

Huh to this statement "With that logic, then Molokans are truly the chosen people."

Scripture is very clear who are Gods Chosen people

Molokanism is a cult.... Whatever stems from that has no basis in anything nor can it be affirmed as Biblical

Certain groups within the cult of mormonism and JW's are pacifists but that does not validate their doctrine

It all comes back to what does the Bible say about the subject

I do see Biblical support to obey the laws because God established ALL authority

Why there are perversions to the laws and why does God allow it, I cannot say

stevepiv · June 24, 2010

It all comes back to what does the Bible say about the subject

I do see Biblical support to obey the laws because God established ALL authority

Why there are perversions to the laws and why does God allow it, I cannot say

Acts 4:1 Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.

5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, 6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. 15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, 16 saying, “What shall we do to these men? For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name.”

18 So they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. 20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” 21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way of punishing them, because of the people, since they all glorified God for what had been done. 22 For the man was over forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed.

June 24, 2010

Is there a Christian out there who will sell his soul to the devil for $10,000 and a lifetime financial security and complements from people? Well the opportunity is available on the subject web site:

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/benefits_an...tives.jsp#bonus

The Army Reserve is now offering a bonus of $10,000 for ministers entering a USA Reserve Troop Program Unit (TPU) with a six year commitment. The bonus is payable in a lump sum following the completion of the Chaplain Basic Officer Leadership Course (CBOLC), which must be completed within 36 months of commissioning.

Just tell the soldiers that they are doing God's work in killing, maiming, mutilation, destroying, bombing, and placing yourself at risk for the same occuring to you, and encourage and confort them to continue in case they start to feel guilty.

But if you tell them to to put down that weapon, or turn the other cheek, or love their enemy, or pray for those who hate you, or overcome evil with good, you will lose your $10,000 sign up bonus and be court-marshalled or at least discharged with a dishonorable discharge as a traitor to the kingdoms of this world.

Does anybody feel that there is something inherently contradictory in the following advertisement for the U S Army Chaplain Corp?

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/

Is it consistant with New Testament to be a US Army Chaplain?

lastinline · June 24, 2010

Christian= Christ-like
Soldiers= Not Christlike.

Could these two individuals be characterized as not Christ-like, because of their actions in dealing with evil?

Revelation 11: 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. NKJV

Откровение Иоанна 11: 4 Это суть две маслины и два светильника, стоящие пред Богом земли. 5 И если кто захочет их обидеть, то огонь выйдет из уст их и пожрет врагов их; если кто захочет их обидеть, тому надлежит быть убиту.

lastinline (& puzzled) :11:

KevinPolyaNazaroff · June 24, 2010

5 “Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood,

By man his blood shall be shed,

For in the image of God

He made man.

Genesis 9: 5-6 NASB

Has this been changed?

Jesus talked about eye for and eye, tooth for tooth.

But did he ever change blood for blood?

Kevin Nazaroff

seeking_truth_1 · June 24, 2010

Poor Bible "student" with a myopic agenda based "faith"

No relationship with the Lord just a religious system that will land him in Hell

This is the same Bible student who misquoted a passage from Acts to "support" eating kosher

The passage has everything to do with teaching Peter that God does not show partiality based upon race

Yet our poor Bible "student" would disown members of his very own family due to racism

Hardly the Christian thing to do, yet he would want to establish himself as a community "scholar" whose expertise is in rightly handling the "holy" s&l and be this voice for pacifism when he cannot right divide the Word of God

In addition to that, time and again, he's been proven to be wrong and willfully attempting to perpetuate lies

Paul, this is why we need to focus on Salvation issues and not allow people such as our Bible "student" to have negative influence over those being lead astray by him and his type

No bueno

Is there a Christian out there who will sell his soul to the devil for $10,000 and a lifetime financial security and complements from people? Well the opportunity is available on the subject web site:

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/benefits_an...tives.jsp#bonus

The Army Reserve is now offering a bonus of $10,000 for ministers entering a USA Reserve Troop Program Unit (TPU) with a six year commitment. The bonus is payable in a lump sum following the completion of the Chaplain Basic Officer Leadership Course (CBOLC), which must be completed within 36 months of commissioning.

Just tell the soldiers that they are doing God's work in killing, maiming, mutilation, destroying, bombing, and placing yourself at risk for the same occuring to you, and encourage and confort them to continue in case they start to feel guilty.

But if you tell them to to put down that weapon, or turn the other cheek, or love their enemy, or pray for those who hate you, or overcome evil with good, you will lose your $10,000 sign up bonus and be court-marshalled or at least discharged with a dishonorable discharge as a traitor to the kingdoms of this world.

Does anybody feel that there is something inherently contradictory in the following advertisement for the U S Army Chaplain Corp?

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/

Is it consistant with New Testament to be a US Army Chaplain?

lastinline · June 24, 2010

Does anybody feel that there is something inherently contradictory in the following advertisement for the U S Army Chaplain Corp?
Watch the video.

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/

Is it New Testament consistant to be a US Army Chaplain? Or does it conflict with the above post?

Danny-boy, talks about something that is inherently contraditory, wow! Or, is it no coincidence at all that he is a devotee of the likes of Ghandi?

Here is more evidence that heretics do have closely related bed-fellows. Danny-boy draws the unsuspecting visitors from one site, to this site and exposes them to a like-minded heretic and a fellow traveler to the fiery pit, where Jesus Christ assures us there will be gashing of teeth. This will be the result, sorry to say if danny continues on the same path to destruction. John 3: 16 is where I would rather he begin his journey to Truth from the God-Man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Click Here ---> HERESY PEDDLER

Will he inform his audience when he is called on to speak, that he is a devotee to the Dark World of Ghandi?

lastinline (& giving you the real scoop)

Nick Shubin · June 25, 2010

Does anybody feel that there is something inherently contradictory in the following advertisement for the U S Army Chaplain Corp?
Watch the video.

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/

Is it New Testament consistant to be a US Army Chaplain? Or does it conflict with the above post?

Danny-boy, talks about something that is inherently contraditory, wow! Or, is it no coincidence at all that he is a devotee of the likes of Ghandi?

Here is more evidence that heretics do have closely related bed-fellows. Danny-boy draws the unsuspecting visitors from one site, to this site and exposes them to a like-minded heretic and a fellow traveler to the fiery pit, where Jesus Christ assures us there will be gashing of teeth. This will be the result, sorry to say if danny continues on the same path to destruction. John 3: 16 is where I would rather he begin his journey to Truth from the God-Man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Click Here ---> HERESY PEDDLER

Will he inform his audience when he is called on to speak, that he is a devotee to the Dark World of Ghandi?

lastinline (& giving you the real scoop)

I'm not standing up for him, but where does it say that he is affiliated with the ghandi group?

Nick Shubin · June 25, 2010

What if no one was there to stop hitler, or any other evil leader/dictator that has, or will commit genocide? Please don't jump down my throat, i'm just asking.

stevepiv · June 25, 2010

Good question Nick. I thought about that before as well. You can go through the ages and see that there has been someone causing trouble, kiling people, genocide...

All the way back we read of stories in the New Testament King Herod killing millions of babies...even to the start of THE CHURCH a man named Saul who later became Apostle Paul.

Imagine if the "christians" of today lived back then??? Using the "christians" view that they have today, they would have been more than happy to kill Saul to protect their "freedom".

stevepiv · June 25, 2010

And, how can someone be so sure to say that this is NOT a Salvational Issue?

Are not murderers outside the City of New Jerusalem?

GoodDay · June 25, 2010

That's a fair question Nick,

My point in all of this is, regardless of how evil of an act another man is doing, do we who call ourselves Christians and represent Jesus Christ have the authority, or any sort of God given right to go and hunt them down to save lives of some while we know that others will be killed in the process. Are we doing it because God is stirring our Spirits to do it, or are we doing it because we want to get the one who we feel deserves death and kill them ourselves.

How about this.

Did Hitler deserve to die becaue of what he did? Or did He deserve death for the same reason as we did before we accepted our calling to Christ?

We read alot about Apostle Paul and it's easy to see him as some sort of humble enlightened loving man who loved The Lord so much. It's easy to think he's a compassionate man and I personally think, how cool it would be to have a chat with him over coffee. But then I read this;

Acts 8

¹And Saul was there, giving approval to his death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. ²Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. ³But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

Saul didn't kill Stephen but he Ok'd it with his approval. It's no different. I believe other's did the killing for Hitler?

Then look here in Acts Chapter 22;

⁴I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women, ⁵ as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished.

Then again Paul told this story;

Acts 22:6-11

About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, `Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' " `Who are you, Lord?' I asked. "`I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. " `What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. " `Get up,' the Lord said, `and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.

After reading about the man Paul used to be, I don't know if I could trust being around him. He was truly a hateful man who killed God's children. Jesus didn't kill him? So, keeping that in mind, why does it seem that Hitler deserved to killed by man?

And Nick,

Putting a stop to something is completely different that forming Armies and training to kill. Putting a stop to something in those words is a good thing and I cannot agree more with you with the use of those words.

My main issue is how a Christian can say they follow Christ and sign away thier lives to a Country and train to kill and obey thier NEW leader. They cannot listen to The Holy Spirit but they must obey the men who takes them out to do the dirt work. They take their oath vountarily and by thier free will of choice.

Innocent lives are part of wars and in no way can one who calls himself a Christian be called to fight mans wars to hunt down someone and kill and mame many others and many being little babies and children and women and families etc.. Their lost lives cannot be justified by soldiers mistakes while they are hunting down the bad guys.

That's why I am very cautious about the way some Christians bring out the term and use of the word; predestination. I have heard some say; "the ones that died were not predistined to be called to Jesus anyways." I will never buy into that. That theory means we can kill anyone that we feel like. If they die, they were going to hell anyways. If they live, then they were predistined. But thats another story.

Nick, again- Stopping something or someone is one thing , but how far is a person able to go before it is completely against they ways of the Lord?

I have never seen or heard of a war in my time, that was anything close to having any appeareance of it being "ordained" by God and God being at the head.

These wars are evil and God is not evil.

For a person to wholeheartedly support or be part of these wars, they should not call themselvs Christians or use The Name of Jesus Christ as they are breaking another commandment ;

To make this is simple as possible for Seeking;

Soldiers take an oath and sign thier life over to man, therefore they are not of God. So, yes seeking it is a salvational issue.

Paul W. Orloff.

Nick,

I Truly was answering your question politley. Much of this was addressed to Seeking and some other posts.

Take care

We see what Hitler did over and over again.

What if no one was there to stop hitler, or any other evil leader/dictator that has, or will commit genocide? Please don't jump down my throat, i'm just asking.

GoodDay · June 25, 2010

Seeking,

Why is it that you do not address this man's message rather than than the messenger?

Those links are a very good source to show you more of what these wars are about. Why do you not see the clarity in this issue as being very Salavational? After studying this the last few days a bit more, these wars are even more evil than I thought then. Where do you see God in all of this Seeking? You have not addressed that?

You are not even addressing the simplicity of the wrongness of one taking an oath?

Jesus Christ HIMSELF said, not to take oaths? Why did He say that?

I am surprised at how calmly you don't seem to be concerened about the origon of these wars. Or towards all them that get blasted to bits for nothing. Well, for your freedom?

Is it all about that?

How about this;

These wars are out of hate because they are of the devil and the devil is hate.

This is what John says about God;

1John 4:16

¹⁶ And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him

Why are American "christian' soldiers loved by so many "American Christians,"? Shouldn't they show love to their enemy as Jesus instructs? If God decided to intervene in these wars and bring all the American soldiers to thier knees in repentance and give up. The American church would probably see them as being cowards. I say this because I see how people react when the Government starts to talk about removing troups

Why are Christians hated by the ones we are called to love?

It seems our "enemies" hate us Christians, because the "Christians" who kill them, use the Name of Our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Are we not called to heap burning coals on there head?

Doesn't ALL of Paul's writings come from God?

Seeking, doesn't ALL of Jesus' Christ's Words mean what they say?

Paul W. Orloff

Poor Bible "student" with a myopic agenda based "faith"

No relationship with the Lord just a religious system that will land him in Hell

This is the same Bible student who misquoted a passage from Acts to "support" eating kosher

The passage has everything to do with teaching Peter that God does not show partiality based upon race

Yet our poor Bible "student" would disown members of his very own family due to racism

Hardly the Christian thing to do, yet he would want to establish himself as a community "scholar" whose expertise is in rightly handling the "holy" s&l and be this voice for pacifism when he cannot right divide the Word of God

In addition to that, time and again, he's been proven to be wrong and willfully attempting to perpetuate lies

Paul, this is why we need to focus on Salvation issues and not allow people such as our Bible "student" to have negative influence over those being lead astray by him and his type

No bueno

Is there a Christian out there who will sell his soul to the devil for $10,000 and a lifetime financial security and complements from people? Well the opportunity is available on the subject web site:

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/benefits_an...tives.jsp#bonus

The Army Reserve is now offering a bonus of $10,000 for ministers entering a USA Reserve Troop Program Unit (TPU) with a six year commitment. The bonus is payable in a lump sum following the completion of the Chaplain Basic Officer Leadership Course (CBOLC), which must be completed within 36 months of commissioning.

Just tell the soldiers that they are doing God's work in killing, maiming, mutilation, destroying, bombing, and placing yourself at risk for the same occuring to you, and encourage and confort them to continue in case they start to feel guilty.

But if you tell them to to put down that weapon, or turn the other cheek, or love their enemy, or pray for those who hate you, or overcome evil with good, you will lose your $10,000 sign up bonus and be court-marshalled or at least discharged with a dishonorable discharge as a traitor to the kingdoms of this world.

Does anybody feel that there is something inherently contradictory in the following advertisement for the U S Army Chaplain Corp?

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/

Is it consistant with New Testament to be a US Army Chaplain?

GoodDay · June 25, 2010

Amen,

We were posting the exact same thought at the same time.

Paul would not have lasted a day here with our Countries Church mentality.

Americas "Christians" have lost focus on what is to come but instead the focus shifted to right here and in this life.

Good question Nick. I thought about that before as well. You can go through the ages and see that there has been someone causing trouble, kiling people, genocide...

All the way back we read of stories in the New Testament King Herod killing millions of babies...even to the start of THE CHURCH a man named Saul who later became Apostle Paul.

Imagine if the "christians" of today lived back then??? Using the "christians" view that they have today, they would have been more than happy to kill Saul to protect their "freedom".

GoodDay · June 25, 2010

To see this again really makes me think.

I didn't see Bible Students post until now and I hope you pray for an understanding of it.

One other thought

We have the ability to openly dialog on subjects like this is as a result of the freedoms that were purchased by those who saw fit to fight against those who would seek to take those rights away

If it wasn't for the Revolutionary war we'd have no nation

What do you need a nation for?

If it wasn't for WWII we'd be speaking German or Japanese now

Maybe God wanted us to speak German or Japanese? What if man thwarted his plan?

and

If our country doesn't get it's act together, we'll be speaking something other than English very soon

Why are you so concerened about us speaking another languange soon?

I pray to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that not ONE life is taken by man to protect my language!!!

Seeking, If you are OK with innocent lives being taken so you can have your nation and speak English, then I again pray to My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that He speaks to your heart!

lastinline · June 25, 2010

I'm not standing up for him, but where does it say that he is affiliated with the ghandi group?

Go to the links that I presented on these several posts on this strand: Christian Anarchism

As you navigate around his web-site you'll find links to several of his dubious associations. I'm quite sure that these acquaintances would not be amused if they were to know his beliefs as a committed "new israelite."

lastinline (& striving not to be the weak link)

stevepiv · June 25, 2010

Is there a Christian out there who will sell his soul to the devil for $10,000 and a lifetime financial security and complements from people? Well the opportunity is available on the subject web site:

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/benefits_an...tives.jsp#bonus

The Army Reserve is now offering a bonus of $10,000 for ministers entering a USA Reserve Troop Program Unit (TPU) with a six year commitment. The bonus is payable in a lump sum following the completion of the Chaplain Basic Officer Leadership Course (CBOLC), which must be completed within 36 months of commissioning.

Just tell the soldiers that they are doing God's work in killing, maiming, mutilation, destroying, bombing, and placing yourself at risk for the same occuring to you, and encourage and confort them to continue in case they start to feel guilty.

But if you tell them to to put down that weapon, or turn the other cheek, or love their enemy, or pray for those who hate you, or overcome evil with good, you will lose your $10,000 sign up bonus and be court-marshalled or at least discharged with a dishonorable discharge as a traitor to the kingdoms of this world.

Does anybody feel that there is something inherently contradictory in the following advertisement for the U S Army Chaplain Corp?

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/

Is it consistant with New Testament to be a US Army Chaplain?

Here is another link that shows the NON-Christian and NON-God fearing attitude, values, that the Army expects.

CLICK HERE Living The Army Values

Notice the twisting of Scriptural commands in order to make it sound good, but it is following man. They say "true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution"

Loyalty

Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers. Bearing true faith and allegiance is a matter of believing in and devoting yourself to something or someone. A loyal Soldier is one who supports the leadership and stands up for fellow Soldiers. By wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army you are expressing your loyalty. And by doing your share, you show your loyalty to your unit.

Duty

Fulfill your obligations. Doing your duty means more than carrying out your assigned tasks. Duty means being able to accomplish tasks as part of a team. The work of the U.S. Army is a complex combination of missions, tasks and responsibilities — all in constant motion. Our work entails building one assignment onto another. You fulfill your obligations as a part of your unit every time you resist the temptation to take “shortcuts” that might undermine the integrity of the final product.

Respect

Treat people as they should be treated. In the Soldier’s Code, we pledge to “treat others with dignity and respect while expecting others to do the same.” Respect is what allows us to appreciate the best in other people. Respect is trusting that all people have done their jobs and fulfilled their duty. And self-respect is a vital ingredient with the Army value of respect, which results from knowing you have put forth your best effort. The Army is one team and each of us has something to contribute.

Selfless Service

Put the welfare of the Nation, the Army and your subordinates before your own. Selfless service is larger than just one person. In serving your country, you are doing your duty loyally without thought of recognition or gain. The basic building block of selfless service is the commitment of each team member to go a little further, endure a little longer, and look a little closer to see how he or she can add to the effort.

Honor

Live up to Army values. The Nation’s highest military award is The Medal of Honor. This award goes to Soldiers who make honor a matter of daily living — Soldiers who develop the habit of being honorable, and solidify that habit with every value choice they make. Honor is a matter of carrying out, acting, and living the values of respect, duty, loyalty, selfless service, integrity and personal courage in everything you do.

Integrity

Do what’s right, legally and morally. Integrity is a quality you develop by adhering to moral principles. It requires that you do and say nothing that deceives others. As your integrity grows, so does the trust others place in you. The more choices you make based on integrity, the more this highly prized value will affect your relationships with family and friends, and, finally, the fundamental acceptance of yourself.

Personal Courage

Face fear, danger or adversity (physical or moral). Personal courage has long been associated with our Army. With physical courage, it is a matter of enduring physical duress and at times risking personal safety. Facing moral fear or adversity may be a long, slow process of continuing forward on the right path, especially if taking those actions is not popular with others. You can build your personal courage by daily standing up for and acting upon the things that you know are honorable.

Edited June 25, 2010 by stevepiv

KevinPolyaNazaroff · June 25, 2010

What if no one was there to stop hitler, or any other evil leader/dictator that has, or will commit genocide? Please don't jump down my throat, i'm just asking.

Nick,

This same question came to my mind yesterday.

It is a good question.

As I was thinking of evil men/dictators, the name Deitrich Bonhoeffer came to mind.

I have done some research on him in the past, and his story is very interesting.

He was in the heart of Nazi Germany during the time of Hitler, and had to make some very tough decisions.

If and when the time of persecution and possible military draft re-appear, we will have to face some tough decisions ourselves.

This will take a few minutes to read, but it is one of the best condensed biography's I have read about Bonhoeffer.

Born to a prominent German family in 1906, Deitrich Bonhoeffer entered seminary upon finishing college. What he found there was a dry and cynical formalism. Although only a student, he opposed the liberal teachings of some of his professors. He contended that the essential nature of the church should be viewed through the gospel of Jesus Christ, not through sociological reasoning.

In 1933 the Nazis overtook the parliament. This same year, the German Lutheran bishops issued a statement that said in part, “We German Protestant Christians accept the saving of our nation by our leader Adolf Hitler as a gift from God’s hand.”

On January 31 of that year, young Deitrich spoke over Berlin radio on the “concept of leadership.” He pointedly asked Germans to consider their perceived need of a strong leader. He also asked them to consider when is leadership healthy and when is it pathological and extreme. The message was cut off the air halfway through it.

Four weeks later communists burned the Reichstag building, which gave Hitler the excuse he needed to restrict free speech, free press and a number of other liberties. A couple of months after this Hitler began his systematic terrorization against German Jews.

Hitler attempted to exercise control over the Lutheran church by appointing one of his stooges in leadership over the entire denomination. Bonhoeffer and a group of reformers who called themselves the “Confessing Church” refused to go along with the bishops who aligned themselves with Hitler. The church split.

In the fall of 1934 the first arrests of Confessing Church ministers began. Little by little the Nazis began tightening their grip on the country and on the church. In 1937, Hitler’s minister of church affairs, Hans Kerrl, gave a speech wherein he said that belief in Christ as the Son of God was “laughable.” As Nazism rose, the real church went further u n d e r g r o u n d.

In March 1939, Bonhoeffer went to New York to attempt to warn Lutheran leaders of the serious situation in Germany. While there, he was offered a position to minister to German refugees. He was tempted to stay but his conscience called him back to his own people. Not long after returning, his activities were restricted by the Gestapo. Leaders in the resistance got the order rescinded and got him a job in the counterespionage department known as the Abwehr. This was a wonderful cover for his real work which was to warn Christians outside the country of what Hitler was doing.

Bonhoeffer was eventually asked to participate in a conspiracy to have Hitler assassinated. He struggled with this question for months and finally agreed to help. The attempt was unsuccessful and in April of 1943 he was arrested.

For two years young Deitrich was held in German prisons. Three weeks before the double suicide of Hitler and Eva Braun, Bonhoeffer was taken with some other inmates into a forest outside their prison. They were ordered to strip and subsequently shot.

Probably the most profound legacy he left behind was his book entitled The Cost of Discipleship. In this heavily challenging work Bonhoeffer called on Christians to repent of “cheap grace” that has no cost and no substance. The man who paid the ultimate price for his Christian witness pleaded with others not to delude themselves into thinking they were saved when they weren’t. He said:

“Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate ....

“Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.

“Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of His Son ....”

Steve Gallagher

GoodDay · June 25, 2010

This is a great example of a person shuffling Scripture to justify a Christian going into mans wars.

Paul..Please read this doc concerning how God feels about war.

What Does God Say About War?

The Case for Pacifism

In a time when the world is still divided by war and conflict, Christians have a duty and responsibility to think through the morality of the use of deadly force, especially when it comes to the issue of war. Many Christians are strict pacifists and lean heavily of the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:38-41

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.

That sure sounds like a command for pacifism, doesn't it? And Jesus also (in the very same sermon), affirms the Law written in the Old Testament:

What is it that Jesus Christ does mean than in Matthew 5:38-41?

Matthew 5:17-20

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. You are misinterpretting what Jesus is saying about Him fullfilling the Law-. Think about this; What does Jesus mean by "fulfilling them"?

Matthew 5:17-20 should be posted in the order that Jesus Spoke, not in reverse,

Here is Matthew 5; What is Jesus saying about oaths? Do you know the oath that Soldiers take? Why must they take that oath? Did God have His people in The Old Testament do that? Think about it

³³"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' ³⁴But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; ³⁵or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. ³⁶And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. ³⁷Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Christian pacifists then point to a foundational teaching of the Old Testament, citing the command, "You shall not kill," found in the Ten Commandments. So how can we, as Christians, ever justify the use of deadly force, even in times of war? Doesn't action of this nature violate the fundamental teaching of Jesus and the Old Testament (which Jesus affirmed as well)?

You Shall Not Kill?

Well, let's begin with a careful reading of the Scripture. "You shall not kill" is actually not a command found in the Bible. The command from scripture in the original language actually says "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word for 'murder' literally means "the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice." Interestingly, most of us are familiar with this definition of murder, because it is reflected in the penal codes of our country. The Penal Code of California presents this definition of murder:

187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

Malice is a form of evil intent that separates 'murder' from 'killing'. Even today there are acceptable forms of killing that lack this kind of evil intent. These forms of killing exist as exceptions to the murder laws of the United States. In California, for example, it is actually legal (according to penal code sections 187, 196 and 197) to kill someone, so long as one of the following conditions are met:

A person kills someone accidentally

A person is trying to defend him or herself and prevent his or her own murder (self defense)

A person is trying to prevent someone from entering his or her house to commit some violent felony

A person is trying to prevent the murder of someone else (protecting an innocent)

I woundn't use the word "legal." If a person accidentaly kills another person in any fashion it is an accident and nothing more. Also. nothing about weapons are mentioned in the above- Perhaps in the long version. Jesus used whips once and that seemed to work with out any chance of killing anyone? By the way, why didn't jesus Carry a sword? If He promoted it as you mention below, would not it make sense for Him to carry one?

When cops shoot 100 rounds at a person that lunges at them- That is murder.

If a person has a loaded gun and shoots and kills a person who he THOUGHT was going to commit a violent felony then it is murder if the person was just gonna steal a radio or somthing.

If a person buys a gun and keeps it loaded with the mindful thoughts of killing any person who messes with his family, has indeed allready commited Murder according to God. It the same thing as if a person shoots a gun to kill another person and there are no more bulletts. In Gods World that is murder, in mans world, that is just totally luck!

In addition, there are exceptions for agents of the government, so long as one of the following conditions are met:

An agent of the court is carrying out a court order (the death penalty) If that agent of the court voluntarliy took that job knowing that he would be doing that, that is murder. And when years go by and them who were capitol Punished to death ended up being innocent- That is worse.

A police officer is acting to stop a fleeing felon who may escape to harm others - If a police officer, is shooting to kill the person then that is murder. If he shoots his leg, thats not good but better that killing them as it usually happens.

In all these situations, killing is actually LEGAL and justifiable, and these kinds of exceptions exist in the Penal Code of every state in America. Even those who don't accept the existence of God or the authority of the Bible have no problem reasoning through the necessity for laws like this; laws that allow for deadly force to be used to accomplish some greater good. Even atheists would agree that laws like this are good and necessary. And I bet that Christian pacifists would also agree. Many Atheists also, know that war is wrong just for the obvious reasoning. They are not even convicted and they know right from wrong. Just because the penal code says something it doesnt make it right. I am a Christian Pasicfist and I do not aggree, especially on the part that says; laws that allow for deadly force for are Ok to accomplish some greater good? That's the thinking of the world. Kill a person for something better? Thats not at all of God. Killers think that way. One man not to long ago killed a doctor who preformed abortion. Thats cold blooded murder. They both are or were

It's interesting to note, however, that exceptions such as these are NOT the invention of modern humans. They are simply a reflection of ancient Biblical Law. The Bible is the source for our modern law and these exceptions come straight from the pages of scripture:

An accidental killing is not murder: I agree and an accident is just that. ABUT person does not accidently sign up in in the armed forces and learn how to kill. They do NOT teach self defense. They knowingly join up with the thought that innocent lives will be lost. THEY choose to join. THEY learn how to kill people. THEY know that many of God's people will be murdered during that time. NO ACCIDENTS in war. Well, they came up with "friendly fire."

Exodus 21:12-13

Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate.

Numbers 35:22-25

But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally or, without seeing him, drops a stone on him that could kill him, and he dies, then since he was not his enemy and he did not intend to harm him, the assembly must judge between him and the avenger of blood according to these regulations. The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled.

A killing performed in self defense or in defense of one's home is not murder:

Exodus 22:2

If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed

A killing performed in an attempt to save the life of an innocent person is not murder:

Exodus 2:11-12

One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. (God did not judge Moses as a murderer because he was protecting the life of the slave)

Genesis 14:14-16

When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan. During the night Abram divided his men to attack them and he routed them, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus. He recovered all the goods and brought back his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the other people. (God did not judge Abram as a murderer because he was protecting the life of Lot)

Our modern laws regarding killing and murder, (the very laws that even atheists and Christian pacifists would fight to defend), are based on Biblical Laws that date back thousands of years!

You are picking and choosing laws. You cannot compare that to now. If you are trying to, then Bin Laden is doing the same thing and his people are just obeying him as thier leader? Ill get back to that later.

Extending a Good Moral Principle

Now let's just think about this philosophically for a minute. Look at just a couple of the exceptions to the murder law: the exceptions for self defense and for the defense of an innocent. Few of us would argue against these exceptions. None of us wants to be charged with murder just because we stopped some crazed attacker from trying to kill us or trying to kill one of our children, even if we had to use deadly force to accomplish our own defense. But what if there were TWO attackers trying to kill you? Would the exception still apply if deadly force had to be used to stop both of them? Would this still be legal and moral? Yes, it would. What if there were ten attackers? 100 attackers? 1,000 attackers? Would the mere number of attackers change the legal or moral question here? No. That's why it is philosophically and theological viable for us to consider the notion of a "just war". While many would simply see any war as mass murder, there are certain conditions under which war may be 'justifiable' in the same way that some killings are exceptions to the murder law. Of course, the burden for justification is VERY high and we can argue about whether or not this burden has been met all you want, depending on which war we are talking about. But I think it is fair and reasonable to say that the moral and legal conditions do exist to justify the use of deadly force, IF the conditions have been established.

It may seem fair and resonable to you but I dont think we are allowed to reason with God. So with that thought look at it in a way where you and yours are effected rather than far away where you dont see the murders happening. What if thier is an escaped felon mass murderer with weapons. He kills a person and steals his car. Then he kills more and more people and they are not able to catch him. Weeks go by and he killed 120 people and the Goverment decides it's time to get serious so they let everyone know they are going to bomb (or they dont let know one know) most of your city to catch the guy because its really getting bad and in the process they bomb the city next to you and kill and mame everyone? Is that Ok? Or would you be Ok with them bombing your city killing most people to try and get the guy? Would you be Ok if it was your time? For the sake of a better cause, whatever that is.

The Real Cause of War

And I know that is a big "IF"! We need to stop for a minute and think about the true cause of war. Why does ANY war begin? Why would we EVER find ourselves considering war in the first place? If we are honest about this, we can usually point to some initial point of conflict that is simply the direct result of human sin. We all have an intuitive sense that evil exists in the world, and the Bible tells us where this evil lives:

Romans 3:10-18

There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one. Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they keep deceiving; the poison of asps is under their lips, whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace have they not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The truth is that the world is filled with sinful people, and war is simply one of many results of sin. Now many people would argue that RELIGION is the cause of war. Exactly!! Many people hate True Christians because false christians use Jesus' name. He is NOT a religion. But to say that EVERY war has been fought on theological grounds is simply untrue. Given free reign, humans will find something to fight about. Like 9/11 that happened over 10 years ago and a trillion dollars and many innocent lives. It may be about religion, but if not, it will be about some other ideology or simply about greed and power. While religion may be one excuse to go to war, it is only that: one excuse. But remember that there will always be SOME excuse. So, why do we find ourselves fighting? Think about it for a minute. It comes down to our very nature as greedy, prideful, power-hungry humans. And this nature is described perfectly in the scriptures: Correct! There is no excuse and it is because of filthy nature! Jesus Christ died for us and ALL the others that are lost and have not come to Him. America is no better than Iraq and surrounding countries or and nation in the world. We are ALL filthy. People have this sense of America being God's Country? What does that mean- I posted that link from the VA cemetary. Those headstones are from people who have no faith, and buddhist and 40 others I believe. NO one can use the Old Testament Wars to todays as examples. All that you have posted are God's people-Compare them to Americas soldiers- Where is God in any of these wars. i dont hear the Presidents say they had a calling to go into war? Boot camp doesn't teach that- read the Military web-sites? Show me God in them???

James 4:1-2

What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. And you are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel.

So, let's be straight about the cause of war. As Christians we are commended NOT to murder. We are also given several exceptions and allowed to KILL. If we do this however, we had better make sure that we are RESPONDING to sin, rather than being yet another SOURCE of sin. No one is commanded to murder and no one is guilty of murder in an accident. Not in Gods eyes at least. No on is ALLOWED to kill- It's just that if it's in accident-its an accident.

So, What Does the Scripture Say?

And there are plenty of examples in the Scripture of ways in which God's people have been commanded to respond to sin by engaging in war. The Old Testament is replete with examples of God ordering His people to go to battle with the nations around them: God's People; About 3 years ago, I was not one of God's people. No Gentiles where God's people, in that sense, until Salvation was open up to all. Many people are still hellbound here in America and around The world, that will come To Jesus as The Father so chooses to. When I was not God's child, I deserved death according to the Old Testament and would have been stoned to death a million times. Now That I am saved and guided by the Holy Spirit I am called to share The Love of God- Commanded I should say-And desiring to show God's Grace on others as I have been shown . If I or an other Christian or so- called Christian sign my life to America to go to mans war (America is of man) I am worse, WAY worse, then the lost soul who attacked this country and others etc..How do you see America as God's people and why would he want us to have this land? Is not a Christians citizen in heaven and are only Sojourners?

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

Joshua 4:12-13

And the sons of Reuben and the sons of Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh crossed over in battle array before the sons of Israel, just as Moses had spoken to them; about 40,000, equipped for war, crossed for battle before the LORD to the desert plains of Jericho.

Numbers 31:1-2

Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Take full vengeance for the sons of Israel on the Midianites; afterward you will be gathered to your people."

Deuteronomy 20:15-17

Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not of the cities of these nations nearby. Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you…

Wow, that sounds pretty brutal. Why would God command all of this? Is he commanding murder? Not from His perspective. But he is commanding his people to kill. The difference is that God (being omniscient) knew these surrounding nations perfectly. He knew their hearts and he knew their future if they were allowed to exist near the nation of Israel. He knew they would seek Israel's destruction (gee, things don't sound like they've changed all that much)! God has that kind of knowledge: Yes- GOD does! Bush, Obama etc.. do not- If this was "of God" where is he?? Whats taking so long for America to find one man- And why can't Americans keep terrorists out? Cannot God do anything?

Isaiah 55:9

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.

God knew that the nations that surrounded Israel would eventually lead them away from God and seek the destruction of Israel as a nation:

Deuteronomy 20:17-18

But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you in order that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 9:4-5

Do not say in your heart when the LORD your God has driven them out before you, 'Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land,' but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is dispossessing them before you. Again- Are you hearing anyone here in America speaking about The Lord guiding them in this way and instructing them?? The Enemy does- They are wrong and need to repent but at least they are doing what thier god is telling them to do and letting everyone know it. All we hear is God Bless America and Our troups etc..

In essence, God is commanding the Israelites to act here in self defense. Knowing the future and every possible twist of time and action, He alone knew that the Israelites would have to use deadly force to protect themselves, so he authorized the military action.

But there is another exception to the murder law that God also invokes, using war as a tool. If you remember, we talked about the right that an agent of the court has to carry out a legal order of the court. One such order is the death penalty for those who have committed the worst of crimes. When agents of the court kill someone who has been found guilty of one such crime, they are not then charged themselves with murder. This is an exception, and one we have already discussed. As it turns out, God has also invoked this exception when judging what the Bible calls 'wickedness'. Just as we might condemn a man to the death penalty for something wicked that he has done, God does the same thing. Think about it for a minute. If there is a God, is He not the supreme judge of wickedness? I only had to think for one second :-). What do you mean "if" there is a God? Yes HE IS the only judge of wickedness in this context. You say "The Worst of Crimes" the courts have made a law to kill the person. (In some states). You got it backwards? You are saying just as we condemn a man to the death penalty, God does the same thing? We are an example for God? We NEVER EVER to codemn a man to death- Thats murder!

Some people argue that God is just an invention of the ancient Jews to justify their desire for war, but don't think for a minute that God only uses war to judge NON-Israelites. God is FAIR, and He is not the invention of the Jews. He often uses war to judge the wickedness of his own people, just as he uses war to judge the wickedness of other nations. When his own people had turned from Him and from doing what was right, He utilized war as an agent of fair and just punishment: Yes, He DID- not does, but did. Now his wrath is storing up for judgment. He is not going around killing people now as it was back then.

Where are you going to talk about the Death of Jesus and that story? Doesn't it mean anything? Why didn't God just keep killing off all them that are not His? Romans talks about our filthyness and our desrved condemnation and our wickedness etc..With your logic, should'n't God kill us all? But instead, what did he do? Why was Blood Shed on The cross? What does The Holy Spirit do now. Are you or me "better" than Bin Ladin??

Jeremiah 5:15-17

"Behold, I am bringing a nation against you from afar, O house of Israel," declares the LORD. "It is an enduring nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language you do not know, nor can you understand what they say. Their quiver is like an open grave, all of them are mighty men. And they will devour your harvest and your food; they will devour your sons and your daughters; they will devour your flocks and your herds; they will devour your vines and your fig trees; they will demolish with the sword your fortified cities in which you trust."

Why would God punish people (even His own people) in this way? Because without justice, mercy is meaningless. When we don't punish the assailant in a case, we in turn end up punishing the victim and the victim's family, who are crying for justice. And this would be yet another sin that WE are now committing. To NOT punish evil is to commit yet another evil:

God will allow something to happen where ever he chooses to bring Glory to Him. Read The book of Job.

If we take it into our own hands to kill them that killed our loves owns, thats plain and simple revenge. Read Romans Chapter 12; It leads into 13 that Militant "Christians" use. They allways leave Romans 12 out especially the end. What does it mean to you?

James 4:17

Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. True!

In the end, justice requires that we judge evil. And in our lives here on earth, God has given us the institution of GOVERNMENT to do just that; punish those who do what is wrong:

Romans 13:1-4 What about Romans 12?

Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.

Again, This is a dangerous area to use to justify war. Americas soldiers swore thier lives to her leaders. THEY now are the ones who decide what they will do. They cannot listen to God because they dis-obeyed Jesus and gave an oath and are now chained to this Country. If they die, they die as an American, not a christian. They are fighting for America. "Support our troups" you see all over the place. They are the property of America- They gave up thier citizenship or never had it. The Holy Spirit will convict a christian to see our Government does not Obey God. They murder babies, condone homosexuality, allow thier own "citizens" to live in sickness and poverty while they spend all Her money killing people far away. Shouldn't God's money be used on saving lives and helping others regardless of who they are? Shouldnt ALL churches take up collection or sell everything and follow Jesus by taking care of all poverty near the churches? It's Gods money right?If one gives their allegience to Amercia, they support all of her. Just as a Christian does when he gives his live to God. Cannot do both.

The Bible clearly teaches that God utilizes war to protect and defend the innocent and to punish the wicked. The Bible is also clear that God has given the institution of government the right and authority to do the very same thing. It is from this reasoning that we can see that there is a theological basis for governments to go to war, but once again, the criteria is limited and the standard is very high. But before we get to all of that, let's take a look at the Life of Jesus and see if we can learn something about what God says about war. Have not you heard about ALL the innocent people killed in iraq and that area?? Did God mess up? He is not in this war- He is allowing it to show how foolish America is and how her pride and arragance will only last so long. Perhaps he allowed 9/11 for the same reason? What did we learn from that? We learned, that the God has lifted His Hands off of us a little perhaps? Maybe He's waiting for America to surrender, I mean surrender to God! If America finds Bin Laden, then what? They put him on a long trial with appointed lawyers and it drags on forever. Then hes guilty and then they put him on death row and theres appeals ets. Then they kill him- Then another guy comes along and it starts over- THEN America, will be broke and probably owned by China by then, and then perhaps finally America will get it and she will be broken and maybe then she will repent.

Another Point- Did God, have a legnthy legal system with all these money making lawyers that will defend him even though he will be proud to be put to death. Didn't he just strike them dead? If we are a Godly Country following the Bible and ALL the laws as you mention up top. Shouldn't we just kill a person as long as 2 or more saw the crime? Also- you said that God is still the same and that Jesus still says we have to uphold ALL laws. Why is adultry no big deal anymore- Didn't they get stoned at certain times. What about the other 500 something laws?

Did two or three witnesses see bin Laden literally kill anyone? Did anyone witness the ones in the plane that are dead too? Doesn't Scripture say they HAVE to be caught in the act?

So What Would Jesus DO?

Many Christian pacifists cite the words of Jesus and make the argument that Jesus would never condone ANY kind of use of deadly force, even the obvious exceptions to murder allowed by the Old Testament Law. They would typically cite these verses:

Luke 6:27-31

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."

But I do think it's important for us to interpret Jesus' words in light of his entire life, not just a particular sermon. It's the LIFE of Jesus that helps us to understand how he feels about the just use of deadly force. Really examine this. If you look at the life of Jesus you will notice that he seems very comfortable with both the notion of self defense and aggressive action: I agree, but what does He mean by the above in Luke?

Also, please don't speak about Jesus that way!! He showed rightous anger in His Fathers house- He didnt kill them or try to injure them. If God is allways the same why did Christ show compassion to the samaratin woman and offer her salvation first and foremost? She was a samartin Women and nothing to God? Why didn't He allow the men to stone the adulturess? Isnt that allowable by the Laws of Old? And Shouldnt that still be allowable today?? Did God ever start to say adultry is OK- If that law was still permitted, half the world would kill all the adulterers. The they would be murderes which would allow them who say to stone them and so on so on- Get the picture of how God does Truly do things different today?

Jesus Believed That There Were Some Causes That Called for Aggressive Action

Jesus was quick to act aggressively to DEFEND what He believed was right:

John 2:13-16

When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" I would have done that too!!! Look, how Jesus didn't even curse? That's ritghous anger and He is great at it!!

Jesus Called for the Use of the Sword

Remember that in Biblical times, the only 'sidearms' available to people for their own protection were knives or swords. Today's equivalent weapons would be pistols and automatic rifles. Jesus told his disciples to arm themselves with swords:

Luke 22:36

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." You need to read the rest of the chapter and also the other Gospels about Peter's use of the sword. Here is one from Matthew 26:52;

Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place, for all those who take the sword will die by the sword

Search out the others and they give you a clearer meaning as does Matthews account. Also- Jesus talks about a sword when he mentiones that he did not come to bring peace but the sword (something like that). Also look at what the sword is as you read on. read Ephesians 6- Hebrew talks about sharpening The Sword. It's used as a Spiritual word to the Beleiver.

Why would he say this? At the very least, he is calling his disciples to prepare themselves for their own defense. And the sword (an instrument that can be used to kill someone) is evidently allowable in the eyes of Jesus.

Its foolish to think Jesus was telling His followers to carry weapons. Thats saying we should carry guns around? Christians get persecuted and we use spiritual tools. We dont shoot them!

Jesus Never Condemned the Life, Calling or Duty of Soldiers

It is this understanding of the appropriate use of force that gives Jesus a proper perspective on the role of soldiers. Maybe that's why Jesus never commented negatively on any soldier he ever came in contact with. Here's a good example:

Luke 3:12-14

Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?" "Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them. Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely-be content with your pay." This is true

Jesus had a great opportunity to tell these soldiers that they should disarm and become pacifists, but he didn't do it! Heck, this would have been a great opportunity for Jesus to begin an entire SERMON on the topic of pacifism and the evil of war, but he also didn't do that! In fact, there were times in Jesus' life where he commended soldiers (men who made a living waging wars)!

Matthew 8:5-12

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him." The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Read about a centuarian and you'll understand Jesus' astonishment. I dont know the rest of the story, but read about His other dealings with The Romans- At the cross etc..

He was probably blown away that a centurian would in a sense "stoop so low." He is a powerful soldier with servants that totally obey and here he is coming to this man?? He is a pagan. Did you also notice that Jesus did not offer salvation or really anything at all? He was just blown away at a High ranked soldier humbling himself before The soon to be Saviour and perhaps this man was eventually a believer. This is actually a great! example of what Bush and Obama AND Bin Laden may do one day. This really ended up being an awesome Scripture of a Gentile coming to the Lord unworthy and full of faith! The centurian being a gentile had a lot to do with it to. I would think there was no need to tell him anything. Jesus did not speak that way in His Speeches. He didn't give "topical" sermons. His Words are filled with peace and His parabolic speaking was for a reason. Look at how He spoke with The Adulterus. He didn't preach to her. He showed love and brought out the sin of the accusers and then He just said go and sin no more. There is a LOT in those few words.

Jesus Agreed with the Father's Perspective on War

We already know how God feels about war as we have described from his actions and commandments found in the Old Testament. We also know that God does not change:

Malachi 3:6

"I the LORD do not change" no, he does not, but The World changed When Jesus died on The cross! In The old days, Salvation was cut off to Gentiles. 2000 years ago, God did do somthing He never did until then and never will again. He showed the world that all The Prophets were true. He open the veil so us that were hellbound can become part of His family. He allowed the world to see that One Death can bring Endless amounts of the dead to Life! He now is storing His wrath while the Church grows- And He is being very patient and long suffering while we still fight with Him because we want to do things our way. He started to dwell inside of each and every Truly re-born creation. So, yes, in a way he did change. He didn't change His plan, but He never was visible and Fully God and Fully Man before until that virgin Birth began things. No one ever saw His face until 2000 years ago. He let man see that we can be perfect and He taught 12 men for 3 years and Spiritually Equiped them to become saints. He Himself was tempted by the Devil Himself. He didnt eat for 40 days and nights.He died and was resurrected. He Bled as He was mocked but at the same time purging in every sin that had been done and those that were happeing then and the ones that have not even happened yet. He hung there in my place for every sin ive done and do-I nailed Him there. Everyone did! Obama AND Bin Laden, Before that He showed Love on them that were dispised by His own people. He let man see healing when needed to let man see His Glory, both Jews and others around. He gave the Blind vision. The who could not walk, he made them walk. He did not heal everyone because that would not have helped in any way. He healed as The Father so Willed. Every Healing He and the Others did had a purpose and that was to show his Glory. And other times by the amount of faith that some showed like the centurion when he would seem to be the last one with that much faith. God had never hung out with drunks and prostitutes until then. He even went so far as to let His chosen kill Him so Salvation would be opened to all John 3:16 He showed such a love that HE Himself took the punisment I and the whole world deserve. He broke all racial, social, economical etc... barriers- God did many things He had never done. He didn't die so we can just say we beleive in Him and live better and hope we make a bunch of money and go to church with other christians and help people and donate for tax right,offs. He died so we have a way out of going to hell and spending an eternity wishing we had a way out like in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. And then He assended and 50 days later he came as The Holy Spirit, so we could have a clue of what to do. With out That Holy Spirit, one is still stuck in a gap of just beleiving and still doing things there own way trying to please God, but comprimising just enough as to not offend man. Wars is a perfect example. It's allways been around and churches have given its Ok and now people are just desensitised to it, unless they get sucked into going and ending up in a battle that they are forced to kill a bunch of innocent people and have mental issues the rest of thier life and get crapped on by the so called God "appointed" Goverment. God doesn't do that. Brother StevePiv and a few others and I can testify to a homeless Viet Nam Veteran who couldn't sleep since he came back -for 30 years or so everynight he had nightmares about when he opened up a hole in Veit Nam and burning women and children to death with a Goverment issued (Not God) flame-thrower. Frank -Steve, heard about Jesus about a year ago by seeing us praying with his homless family (A big group of homless) in Fullerton and walked up to StevePiv and asked him what God can do for him. I never saw a man weep so hard! He was crying out to God loud for forgivness as Steve prayed and we layed hands on him and we all prayed. He was brought down so low, he took off his hat and was beating his head on the ground. (Like in the Bible).. He was drinking a beer before and had red eye-s and when he finally was able to stop weeping and God lifted him up after he was done repenting and accepted His call to Jesus his eye were white as snow!! It took a little while for him to finally realize God had forgiven him for doing the evil murdering of those innocent people. There were others I am sure too because it was war. He was abandoned by the Goverment he signed his life too but not forgotten by God. Last we heard he was able to move up north and get a job with his brother if i am correct.

So, that's what wars of today consist of. I cannot even imagine how many stories like that and worse that there are. There were always gang rapes and no-one told until years later. With little girls even. They distributed drugs to enhance soldiers murdering powers. I am not a scholar on all that but it only takes a few stories or see the lives of the soldiers go to nothing, and VA hospitals filled with Mental patients and limbs missing and heads having to be fixed and burns and who knows how many will live out their lives on the street strung out on drugs or cleaned up with no way to get help. Them here in the Country that praise these men for their freedom can at least help them out when their goverments spits them out. God doesn't treat people that way. People treat people that way. How can one Praise them who fight for thier own freedom, and then forget about the ones who are screwed up for life wishing they didn't go and also the ones who come to the Lord. They need a church that will love them as human beings and not get over looked while the ones who lucked out and came back with many medal and nice stripes etc..or a hero for taking down so many planes or something. They don't need praise of man, they need Jesus Christ!!

Also,

A thought just came to mind-

Did God give His people medal and stripes for the battles they one and did he give more praise to the soldier that killed more enemy?

I don't think so-

Wars of today are of the devil allowed by God to bring people to their knees- Not just the terrorists because they allready need to hear about Jesus, but the Americans who call themselves Christians but represent the devil and murder people prematuraly while the goverment that bought their souls controls them.

s

James 1:17-18

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Keep this in mind as you read these passages:

John 10:30

"I and the Father are one."

John 14:9-10

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

John 14:24

"These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."

1 John 5:6-7

This is the one who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Jesus and the God the Father are in perfect agreement about EVERYTHING. When one talks, the other is talking. When one acts, the other is acting. They are in harmony. So whatever God says about war in the Old Testament is still true about war in the New Testament. Jesus feels the same way about war that God does, because He IS God.

Jesus is Himself a Warrior

With that in mind, it's much easier to understand and accept the way that Jesus is then depicted in the Book of Revelation, where he is described as a warrior at the end times:

Revelation 19:11-21

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

So, is this Jesus the pacifist that some would like us to accept? If we, as Christians, as to model our lives after the life of Christ and be imitators of Jesus (Ephesians 5:1), then we will also find ourselves embracing the view of war that Jesus clearly demonstrated in his actions in the New Testament. While it is true that HE never resisted those who would eventually put him on the cross, this effort on the part of Jesus was a unique and specific action designed to accomplish the Salvation that all of us so desperately need. It was not evidence of his pacifism, for if this was true, all the examples I've given you from his life and from the scripture would make no sense at all.

So, How Should Christians Respond?

Disciples of Jesus have asked this question for generations. While the vast majority of Christians DO believe that there are times when it is appropriate to go to war, they have struggled throughout the ages to understand WHEN exactly God would honor such action. And clearly Christians have made their share of mistakes in this regard. Augustine (354 - 430) and Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) struggled to formulate what is now called the "Just War Theory". They were simply trying their best to understand when it would be morally right to engage in military action based on the teaching of the Bible. As a result, several principles have evolved through the ages that can help us understand how we, as Christians, are to respond to the idea and reality of war. Let's take a look at some guidelines that Christians might follow as they think about the notion of war:

Everything Must Begin With Prayer

For the Christian, no thought of entering into war can begin without our first consulting God to ask him for wisdom on the part of our leaders, mercy for our enemies and peace for all those involved:

1 Timothy 2:1-4

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 5:43-46

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Philippians 4:6-7

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Prayer is a powerful weapon, even before we resort to the weapons of war:

2 Corinthians 10:3-4

For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. What??? Paul is not saying to pray before war. He is saying Christians are in the world but not OF the world. He is NOT saying that we should not got to war the same way the world goes to war. He is saying; we as Christians, we do NO wage war as the WORLD does. Then he says; The weapons we fight with are not weapons of the world.

Christians are called OUT of the world. Are Battles are Spiritual- read Epeshians 6.. The whole New Testament talks about Spiritual Battles- Swords and sheilds ett..are mentioned over and over because they war using those in the old before Christ physical wars. The Holy Spirit indwells and battle is not man to man, but with satan and his tricky spirit weapons and ways.

Peace Must Be Pursued FIRST

Even before we ever consider the option of war, we must pursue the path of peace. For me, this is where Jesus' teaching from the Sermon on the Mount has its context. Jesus calls us to turn the other cheek, and resist the impulse to strike back. But let's think about this for a minute. If our goal is to commit the least sin possible, are we accomplishing this if we ignore an atrocity of evil that is about to be inflicted upon an innocent? If we fail to stop evil when we can, are we not then committing evil (James 4:17)? Are Jesus' commands in the Sermon on the Mount license for us to sit still and allow the harm of others? Or did God also give us the wisdom to do what we can to be at peace, while recognizing that there may be times when we will have to act in order to avoid sinning as James so clearly described and as Paul wrote as well:

Romans 12:18

¹⁸If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone

'IF' it is possible. It seems clear from this passage in scripture that there may be times when it is not. But it is also clear from God's Word that we are to strive for peace and do everything we can to preserve it:

Actually it means not that at all; I posted all of Romans 12 below.

Paul seems to be saying in verse 18 as you pointed out, "as far as it depends on you." I see it as we as Christians need to be the ones not to just preserve peace, but not to be the ones, at what ever cost to not do something to another to bring matters to end up up in fights or quarrels or wars or whatever. If you included 19 and on, you would see a clearer picture. God's enemies as we were once will still not like The Ways of Jesus as we should be because it's the worst thing for the devil. He will try to make Christians mad and want to hit back or fight back or go to war in revenge. Verse 19

17 also, and on tells us how to act and what to do; Here is again and then beleow it is all of 12;

¹⁷Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. ¹⁸If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. ¹⁹Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"^[d]says the Lord. ²⁰On the contrary:

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."^[e] ²¹Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Here is ALL of Romans 12;

¹Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual^[a] act of worship. ²Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

³For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. ⁴Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, ⁵so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. ⁶We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his^[b]faith. ⁷If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; ⁸if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

Above are Some gifts of The Holy Spirit- I cant see anyone of them fitting into wars

⁹Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. ¹⁰Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. ¹¹Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. ¹²Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. ¹³Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

¹⁴Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. ¹⁵Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. ¹⁶Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.^[c] Do not be conceited. ¹⁷Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. ¹⁸If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. ¹⁹Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"^[d]says the Lord. ²⁰On the contrary:

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."^[e]²¹Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Above, it says so much. What does paul mean by "leave room For God's Wrath?" And all the rest??

Psalm 34:14

Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it

The challenge, of course, is to know when we simply MUST act to the extent that we can ("as far as it depends on you") to stop evil. First we must use diplomacy and negotiation, but when that path reaches its end, it is time to love those that hate us by containing their activity in a way that prevents them from harming the innocent. The protection of the innocent must be a primary motive for us as we consider war. What do you mean by we should stop evil? Murdering or murdering killers does not stop evil? It just kills a person. Evil will be here until God finishes it all up later. You are not seeing, that ALL people are evil. We ALL fall short of the Glory of God. We can kill all the people the Country allows us too under their laws and that does not get rid of Evil?

Why did God Allow Hitler too live to kill all those Jews? Should not have God got rid of Him before? He killed himself but even if he was killed, that would not have gotten rid of evil.

Going back to God's commandmants- We ALL broke at least one which means we broke them all which means we deserve death. Does that mean we should ALL be killed??

There Must Be A Moral Reason For War

Motive is incredibly important to God. War is the last line of defense to protect those that are threatened by evil aggressors. It is not to be used to advance our worldview or force our views. It is not to be used to exact revenge, or to harm or exploit those who disagree with us. War is justified when all else has failed and war is the only option to DEFEND those who are threatened by the deadly force of an evil aggressor.

Has America tried ALL other ways to protect herself?? Hasn't America been told to stay out of that Country ar they will do more. Has America tried to leave and come back and just remain in a defense mode of some sort, or perhaps ask God for direction? Did The Goverment ask All the Americans what they feal should be done? After all God did not appoint them, The American citizens did. People of all faiths and religions and atheists and what have you.

Proverbs 16:2

All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD.

But unfortunately, there WILL be times when war is the only way:

Does not Jesus Himself tell His followers" There will be wars and rumors or wars?" He does not go onto to say to go be in them, does He not?

Ecclesiastes 3:8

…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

I don't think that means we are supposed to love for a while then hate, and then have peace and then go to war. These little one liners really dont make a case for war at all. It show that there allways was war and allways will be. If "Christians" didn't try to justify it and did what they are supposed to -there would be less wars.

So it's important for us to have God's Holy motives in mind as we begin to contemplate the act of war:

Revelation 19:11-12

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.

Here is more of Revelation 19 to give a better picture- You can see "Sword" really taking meaning now. What do you make of the bottom part that is underlined? It doesn't sound good to me. Bin Ladin is no mighty man, This sounds like the nations leaders and there wars and them that followed them into wars are going to get

their rewards straight from the wrathful Sword of Jesus.

¹¹ Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. ¹² His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had^[a] a name written that no one knew except Himself. ¹³ He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. ¹⁴ And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,^[b] followed Him on white horses. ¹⁵ Now out of His mouth goes a sharp^[c] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. ¹⁶ And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

¹⁷ Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,^[d]¹⁸ that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free^[e] and slave, both small and great.”

¹⁹ And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. ²⁰ Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. ²¹ And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

If You Can't Win, Don't Begin

But beyond this, we also need to make sure that our actions are within our means ("as far as it depends on you"). We need to know with certainty, BEFORE WE BEGIN TO ACT, that we can accomplish our goals: Where do you get this stuff? Again Romans 12 "as far as depends on you" is not a military term of some sort. It's simple saying for a Christians to not let the enemy get to you. If you read Romans 12 again, its says do not repay evil with evil etc.. The best way to stop any Enemy is usually to turn away and don't let them feel like they are winning. Hence; "you will heap burning coals on his head. (Old and new testament).

America is making the terrorists so mad by just being in thier country. America should just leave and they may take a turn away themselves. The extremists WANT to die and there is no logical way to "win." God knows this and instructs us to not let things get this far; ("as far as it depends on you.") Now America went to far and are getting deeper. Even if they were "obeying" God, there are making more of a mess and not winning or whatever they are even planning on doing. GOD KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING. In the Old Testament, Did God ever lose a Battle and be conquered? Did He ever lead His people into Battle and then keep changing his mind and plans during a 10 war battle?

repay,"^[d]says the Lord. ²⁰On the contrary:

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."^[e] ²¹Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Luke 14:31-33

"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace."

Why is this so important? Because it is tragic enough to have to kill, even to accomplish what we would consider a greater goal, but if we DO end up killing people and then FAIL to accomplish the goal, we have simply become another source of evil, and that is something that will not please God.

Again, you are a false teacher that Christians need to watch out for. I do not know you but this post has shed a light of light (dark) onto this whole topic. If this was a sermon at a church, them who are not on guard could be mislead into thinking war is ok. You are misguided and misleading other and I prat that other who read this please take his one liners and open up the Bible to see the Context and you will see all the falsness. The Old Testament God did lead His people into battles- God will allow wars and Jesus speaks of wars and rumors of wars and thats it. Jesus Christ did not right a list of does and do not does. He did not just die in vain, so we can do whatever we want as long as the Government says its Ok- Please read for yourselves- Do not even take my response for anything as The Bible is The source, BUT with out the Holy Spirit, everything can be made Ok as the one who posted this.

The safest way to beleive if in doubt of anything, is to start by NOT doing something of question, and not the other wat around. One can get themselves in a lot of trouble such as this poster and Seeking and them that beleive as such. It's not hard to stay away from everything that has to do with taking the life of another. The Goverment will get thiers if they do not repent, but one does not need to follow them on thier path they created on their own with the devils help. The Bible says there will be wars and yes there is and simply stay away from it. This poster also tried to say that if we DONT use deadly force to stop evil, then we are sinning and used a quote from James- Thats NOT what that means- The Bible speaks of deceivers and this whole reply is filled with deciet!

Here is more from luke as he just picked a little tad; It's a parable. Jesus used them all the time to give insight or a comparison so the listeners that are supposed to understand, will understand. Many times, much of the crowd would leave after as they did not have ears to hear. Jesus is saying that if someone comes to Him half heartedly that they cannot follow Him. It has nothing to do with war. Jesus used terms of the times and things that were going on to relay his message. There were kings that went to war and he used that in this instance. He wasn't there at that moment put a stop to that. If you read this deceivers comment up above, he is saying that if we are in a war and end up killing people that is terrible enough, but if we do not succeed and fail to accomplish the goal, then we end up being another source of evil and thats not Ok to God. THIS IS RUBBISH!!!! He is saying that when Christians go into war make sure they win or they are bad now. Thats even a worse thought. Thats why so many innocent people die! They will do anything to win!! And they are not winning! Pauls Writings and Jesus himself say to keep away from letting the evil one get to you and allow you play his same game back at him as this will bring everything except peace. It's up to the Christian to be the one to not let things flame up by you not getting envolved. buy getting envolved then one is no different than evil one and the evil one gains some more points and souls too. It's no different that stepping away from a potential fistfight. Some friend see it as cowardly but real freind see it as a strong person. It can be hard to step away, but the most nobelist.

Luke 14

²⁵ Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, ²⁶ “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. ²⁷ And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. ²⁸ For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— ²⁹ lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, ³⁰ saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? ³¹ Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? ³² Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. ³³ So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

War Should Not Cause More Evil Than It Eliminates

To decide to kill to accomplish a greater good is a very difficult thing to have to choose. But when we have certainty that our actions will eliminate more evil than they create, the choice is a little easier. For this reason we must be very wise about how we proceed:

This person in know way is a Christian. These sound like quotes from 100 ways to succeed in war!

If God is in charge these lines would not even go through the mind of a Christian.

When a person signs his life away to America, they no longer can make descisions. if there leader says go blow up spot x y an z, you say yes sir- and blow the spots up. They say charge, you charge. You disobey, you get courtmartial and all kind of mess.

Psalm 7:3-5

O LORD my God, if I have done this and there is guilt on my hands — if I have done evil to him who is at peace with me or without cause have robbed my foe — then let my enemy pursue and overtake me; let him trample my life to the ground and make me sleep in the dust.

Even in the midst of war, we must always seek to minimize the aggression needed to accomplish the goal:

Deuteronomy 20:10-12

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.

Very wise words and a safe way to go into battle...5000 years ago. I dont recall Bush following this?

Wisdom and Counsel Must Be Sought Before Acting in War

This may sound simplistic, but the worst decisions are those that are made without the depth and variety of opinions from all sides of the issue. The best decisions are then possible once we have the wisdom of others to support our choices:

There is one side- God

Proverbs 20:18

Make plans by seeking advice; if you wage war, obtain guidance.

Proverbs 24:6

…for waging war you need guidance, and for victory many advisers.

War Should be Waged by Legitimate Governments

God has given us the institution of government for a reason. Governments have the responsibility of protecting the innocent and punishing those who do wrong. We are not to act as individuals and take matters into our own hands. We must patiently trust the government for matters such as these:

I can agree with the bottom part. We are stuck with Americas Goverment and if they want to go fight a war, that's thier bussiness. We can only pray for them and do the Lords Work while they are helping the devil.

Americas Goverment as well as the states Governments are failing and kids are getting worse and worse education- They are allowing or I should say pushing homosexuality into teaching as normal. They are cutting back on medical care for handicapped children as well as adults, they are cutting more and more aid to the needy and jobless. Much more too, and it would be one thing if there was no money but they are using a trillion dollars to date on these wars accomplishing nothing while innocent people die here. MANY people, even working people die daily as they cannot afford heath insuarance. ALL this could be solved but they are not concerned about that. (Some are, but the other side does not care). We have a split Goverment and a split nation and cannot even get along here and they excpect to solve problems with these wars in other countries? The rich get richer and the poor and midal class creep down towards poverty with no solution in sight from the way they handle Gods Money.

Romans 13:1-3

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

It may be tough to submit ourselves to the government under which we live, particularly if this government is engaged in a war with which we disagree. But we must do our best to work within our limits and respect the authority that God has placed over us:

I agree with to at least show respect towards them as they are God's creations too. We can pray for them and that they get on their knees to ask God for forgivness and for guidance.

1 Peter 2:17

Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

I like how Peter says it; Show "proper' respect to everyone. No level of respect can take the live of another. We cant kill a person out of respect for someone they may have killed. If we honour a King who Ok'd that then we would not be fearing God. If we fear God, then all falls into place and we take no ones life.

Civilian Casualties Should Be Minimized

This is perhaps one of the most difficult tasks to achieve, but our Christian worldview demands that we minimize suffering in our effort to eliminate the greater threat. This means we simply MUST do all that we can to avoid civilian causalities. God does NOT honor violence done toward those who are innocent and undeserving:

This is the most insulting part so far toward Our Heavenly God!!!!! "He does not honor violence toward those who are innocent and undeserving."

"Civlian Casualties should be Minimized."????????

Where are you getting this??

NO innocent lives should EVER be taken, while another is murdering a killer. To Aviod it is to STAY AWAY from anything like wars that DOES take innocent lives- THATS MURDER!!! You and everyone know wars kill innocent!!!!

Psalm 10:2, 8

In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak, who are caught in the schemes he devises... He lies in wait near the villages; from ambush he murders the innocent, watching in secret for his victims.

You should post the rest of the Psalm?? It talkes about them who murders (not kills) the innocent during an ambush. Then h well here is the whole Psalm; The murderer of innocent in any case- war in this topic thinks God will forget about it. He murdered the innocent because his thoughts have no room for God. 13, shows how these types of murders think that God would hold them accountable. This is another GREAT Scripture to show what murderer in Americas miltary are in for. There is NO excuse for murdering an innocent person.

¹ ^[a]Why, O LORD, do you stand far off?

Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?

² In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak,

who are caught in the schemes he devises.

³ He boasts of the cravings of his heart;

he blesses the greedy and reviles the LORD.

⁴In his pride the wicked does not seek him;

in all his thoughts there is no room for God.

⁵ His ways are always prosperous;

he is haughty and your laws are far from him;

he sneers at all his enemies.

⁶ He says to himself, "Nothing will shake me;

I'll always be happy and never have trouble."

⁷ His mouth is full of curses and lies and threats;

trouble and evil are under his tongue.

⁸ He lies in wait near the villages;

from ambush he murders the innocent,

watching in secret for his victims.

⁹ He lies in wait like a lion in cover;

he lies in wait to catch the helpless;

he catches the helpless and drags them off in his net.

¹⁰ His victims are crushed, they collapse;

they fall under his strength.

¹¹He says to himself, "God has forgotten;

he covers his face and never sees."

¹² Arise, LORD! Lift up your hand, O God.

Do not forget the helpless.

¹³Why does the wicked man revile God?

Why does he say to himself,

"He won't call me to account"?

¹⁴ But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;

you consider it to take it in hand.

The victim commits himself to you;

you are the helper of the fatherless.

¹⁵ Break the arm of the wicked and evil man;

call him to account for his wickedness

that would not be found out.

¹⁶ The LORD is King for ever and ever;

the nations will perish from his land.

¹⁷ You hear, O LORD, the desire of the afflicted;

you encourage them, and you listen to their cry, ¹⁸ defending the fatherless and the oppressed,

in order that man, who is of the earth, may terrify no more.

James 5:1, 6

Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you... You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

I like this one here as it shows that it is not for us to kill them who murder innocent people. God is telling them about what's coming to them from Himself in the latter days. I am posting it in context to show it is not talking about people that are rich in general as God does Bless some here and now with more riches, but to bless others. james is pointing out the ones who get the money by opression and even murder. Many Christians are great stewards of God's money.

Again, if a Government is at war for any kind of gain, then they are gulity of murder of any innocent. Just as are country lost some innocent their murderers to will be held accountable to God.

James 5

¹Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. ²Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. ³Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. ⁴Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. ⁵You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.^[a]⁶You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you

I just read this from James as well and I dont know how to be more clearer on what God says about oaths; There is no way denying the fact that a soldier swears in an oath. I am not just saying that, its repeated again here in James. I can only see that again as meaning you are giving your live to the Military and in that them who do are not of God and face condemnation,

¹²Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned.

Prisoners of War Must Be Treated Justly

Wars inevitably create and result in prisoners of war. It is imperative that we take the high road in our handling of these prisoners. Even in ancient times, when harshness in war was the accepted cultural pattern of the time, the Old Testament Jews were instructed to mitigate the harm they did to prisoners and their land:

Deuteronomy 20:19-20

When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees of the field people, that you should besiege them?

It was the custom of the time for all defeated peoples to be utterly destroyed, and although God also commanded the Israelites to do this in the most severe of situations, the Old Testament allows for the women and children of these captives to remain unharmed (Deuteronomy 20:13-14 and Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

After read the Bible in the Book of Deuteronomy I see why you again did not post. So I will;

Today this would be called rape? I know this was Truly from God and He knows why it was as it was then. Does this give permission for soldiers to blow away a family and sleep with a beautiful woman? It seems as though they killed her mother as she mourned both her parents . You are justify war today from war of the olden days as God being the same today, then and tommorrow. And that ever little jot of the Law will be fullfilled (you quoted incorrectly). When did God say to not do this any more?

Deut 21:10-14

¹⁰ “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive, ¹¹and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, ¹² then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. ¹³ She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. ¹⁴ And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her.

I used an amplified version. The others use the word "plunder" instead of "take for yourselves" I just wanted to clarify for the readers what you did not post. Its good to read the whole chapter but this here is what they are Ok to do if they cannot have to city- To the poster-This is another law of old. Why are the Goverments not following the whole letter of the law? It says here to kill all the males with the sword. And it mentiones elseware that The Jews said all created was good and should be used as such. Woman and food are treated as equals here and in later verses, plants and trees are treated better than women. Here is what Plunder means; to take by force or wrongfully or to make extensive use of. So the soldiers can use the woman as they desire but they cannot harm them. So you are right poster, its ok to murder men in wars just make sure you dont kill the women or the innocent. Also, if the Soldier see what he likes by these laws he can enjoy what and who he wants but he just cannot harm them

Deuteronomy 20: 13-14

¹³And when the Lord your God has given it into your hands, you shall smite every male there with the edge of the sword.

¹⁴But the women, the little ones, the beasts, and all that is in the city, all the spoil in it, you shall take for yourselves; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the Lord your God has given you.

We Must Support One Another

Times of war are miserable, heartbreaking and tragic. They are filled with stress and hardship, even when they are waged on the opposite side of the world, far from the native soil of the combatants. It is during times like these that Christians need to behave in a way that honors our God:

Oh my,

Poor soldiers! They signed their life to the devil and then they have to be far from home and away from their wife and children (where they should be!!) and they have to go through the stresses- What about the innocent ones that get murdered and their families?? What about them? The murderers of the innocent you allready pointed out their condemnation. We Christians need to pray for the lives of them who are caught in the middle!! We should help them and do what we can for there losinjg of everything. Thats what churches should do. And as far as us Christians needing to behave in a way that honours our God? Thats simple!! We are not to be a part of that!! We can send aid to the victims or pray for them or something but not kill them and then pray for the ones who killed them!! They know what they will be facing to some point as far as people getting murdered.

Galatians 6:2

Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

This is not about war!!!!!! Read the rest of it!!

During times of war, we should draw close to each other and demonstrate the love of Christ in our own lives and relationships. What about when there are no wars going on? We can act without love towards each other?

And Ultimately, We Must Trust God

Finally, we must do our best to recognize that God alone is our source of strength. It's easy to start to trust our own military prowess. Living in the strongest nation in the world, we sometimes have a sense of invincibility. September 11th, 2001 marked a new era for many of us in that regard. Our confidence was shattered in many ways. Maybe that's why there was a short burst of spirituality following that terrible day. People were reminded by that one terrible act that the only true source of strength and safety is the God of the universe:

This is sad! "And Utimately, We must Trust God" What a great way to near the end. Start by trusting the Goverments etc.. and then work your way over to God. Your right that God alone is our source of strength. It's easy to trust your Miltary prowess for someone who trusts God lastly. We are not no strongest nation in the world. America is barely hanging on and of all people, so many "chrisitans" are trusting that the goverment will win these wars and magically everything will come back to life. The strongest nation in the world is a kingdom that has not been established yet. Until that time we may have more rich people or movie stars and celebrities, but the poorest countries have the strongest Christians! That's where the strenght is. They have nothing but they have everything and Thats Jesus Christ!

That "burst" of "spirituallity" was just a burst and nothing more. People just got real patriotic and churches were filled because they were in fear and then it just died out. Christians don't burst periodically what that did show is how much fear America really has. It shows how much freedom we do not have. God doesn't want people to praise Him or come to Him when they get scared and then leave when things calm down. It just shows you what it will take for America to repent and it's heading that way.

Psalm 27:1-3

The LORD is my light and my salvation — whom shall I fear? The LORD is the stronghold of my life — of whom shall I be afraid? When evil men advance against me to devour my flesh, when my enemies and my foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though an army besiege me, my heart will not fear; though war break out against me, even then will I be confident.

Againn this is true. But you saw the fear in people after 9/11. Churches were full. They were full because they were in fear! Bring this Psalm up today time with The Spirit. We as Christians need not fear the evil one, because he cannot steal our Salvation. He cannot pluck us out of God's flock. Picture Martyer Stephen getting murdered. I am sure he was scared as he new he was goona die but he feard not because The Lord Had Hold of him. He, like Jesus even forgave then that murdered him. Many martyer go though that. War was the way of old, today is Spiritual warfare.

Proverbs 21:31

The horse is made ready for the day of battle, but victory rests with the LORD.

Another great comparison to use with The New Testament to compare the old Physical way to the New Spiritual way.

It's in difficult times of war that even the faithful begin to wonder if things will ever return to normal or if peace will ever be ours again…

Why do you feel that even the faithful may think they way you do?? Jesus Christ was VERY clear that we will never see peace here. And what is normal? When was a time when things were normal. Sure there are times when things appear more peaceful than others but in reality the worlds just as The Bible Tells us. All the signs are moving towards Jesus Return. Jesus said, He did not come to bring peace but the sword. Again. not the sword that Peter had.

What God Said

But for those of us who are Christians, we do have a promise of peace in which we can place our trust and hope. God has promised us that a day is coming when peace will come at the hands of God, in spite of our human failings and without any achievements on our part:

I want to say -Exactly, but this is very inconsistant with everything elde you have been saying.

Isaiah 2:4

He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

This is a comforting promise, but even more assuring is the fact that in this future time of peace, Jesus will know each of us personally, restore us and heal our pain and sin: Jesus does know ALL that are His. Read John 10 and this; This clearly says there will be people who will try to fool God into saying they did things in His Name and Jesus will say, He never knew them and to depart; He wants to have a personal relationship with us now, not before it's to late. Even many un-believers know who Jesus is, but He does not know them. Once a person dies its too late. Thats why were called to spread His Love, not murder our enemies in all in thier path. He wants them to come to Him and introduce themselves too.

Matthew 7:21-23

²¹"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ²²Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' ²³Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

Jesus will put an end to all conflicts, all war and all strife as he takes the throne once and for all:

This is why we are not to partake in war or support it because clearly Jesus will put an end to all that is evil. Wars are evil and thats why he will put and end to them. He does not say He will just call a cease fire. He will destroy all the beasts and his armies. Them that are in those armies cannot say,"I followed my leader and did as he told me etc.." It will be to late- He will destroy the armies as it is too late at that time to "reason" with Him.

Psalm 46:10

"Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth."

A day is coming when we, as humans will NOT have to make the difficult decision for war. A day is coming when God will be the final judge and Jesus will be the final peacemaker. Until then, the scripture does tell us, however, that there will be times when deadly force is the only way to stop a greater evil, and it is within the teaching and example of God for us to make that difficult choice for war, should the time ever come. As Christians we must seek God's will and trust Him, even in the most difficult of times.

To whomever you are that posted all this. If you wait until that day it will be too late. "humans" make decisions and Christians follow Jesus and when we dont listen to Him we fall back to our human nature and will fail everytime.

I will pray for you and that Our Loving Lord will allow you to see His Word. Please try to understand how drastic things changed after The Day of Pentacost. Look at Peter's transformation from yeilding a sword, and Jesus telling Him to but it away and that he who lives by it dies by it etc.. Then read The Book Of Acts and see how The early church was and how Peter was now a Spiritual warrior as Paul was. Read Ephesians 6. It describes very cleary the spirtuality weapons. That is what Chrsitians wear.

Paul W. Orloff

seeking_truth_1 · June 25, 2010

The messengers credibility does have quite a bit to do with the message

Tell you what...

Why not ask Bible "student"

1) Who is Jesus

2) How is Salvation secured

3) Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God

4) Is the s&l "god inspired"

If you can get honest answers to those I believe you will understand the credibility of the messenger and therefore the message

To see this again really makes me think.

I didn't see Bible Students post until now and I hope you pray for an understanding of it.

One other thought

We have the ability to openly dialog on subjects like this is as a result of the freedoms that were purchased by those who saw fit to fight against those who would seek to take those rights away

If it wasn't for the Revolutionary war we'd have no nation

What do you need a nation for?

If it wasn't for WWII we'd be speaking German or Japanese now

Maybe God wanted us to speak German or Japanese? What if man thwarted his plan?

and

If our country doesn't get it's act together, we'll be speaking something other than English very soon

Why are you so concerened about us speaking another languange soon?

I pray to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that not ONE life is taken by man to protect my language!!!

Seeking, If you are OK with innocent lives being taken so you can have your nation and speak English, then I again pray to My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that He speaks to your heart!

GoodDay · June 25, 2010

I have no reason or desire to ask him those questions.

His posts were correct and showing war as being not for Christians

I don't know who he is so in this case the message is credible indeed.

Something or someone has convicted him to see the truth about todays wars.

The messengers credibility does have quite a bit to do with the message

Tell you what...

Why not ask Bible "student"

1) Who is Jesus

2) How is Salvation secured

3) Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God

4) Is the s&l "god inspired"

If you can get honest answers to those I believe you will understand the credibility of the messenger and therefore the message

To see this again really makes me think.

I didn't see Bible Students post until now and I hope you pray for an understanding of it.

One other thought

We have the ability to openly dialog on subjects like this is as a result of the freedoms that were purchased by those who saw fit to fight against those who would seek to take those rights away

If it wasn't for the Revolutionary war we'd have no nation

What do you need a nation for?

If it wasn't for WWII we'd be speaking German or Japanese now

Maybe God wanted us to speak German or Japanese? What if man thwarted his plan?

and

If our country doesn't get it's act together, we'll be speaking something other than English very soon

Why are you so concerened about us speaking another languange soon?

I pray to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that not ONE life is taken by man to protect my language!!!

Seeking, If you are OK with innocent lives being taken so you can have your nation and speak English, then I again pray to My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that He speaks to your heart!

Nick Shubin · June 25, 2010

Just a couple of observations, and questions.

Just like hyper calvinism, i think there is hyper pacifism. This is such a hot button topic, and cases have been made for both sides of the debate.

How does God punish evil, or wickedness?

Is punishment only stored up for the end times?

If left to hyper pacifism, would we not live in a state of total anarchy?

Is it accepted by hyper pacifists, that God has established leaders to rule over us, as shown in scripture?

How does God go about protecting his people, or humanity for that matter?

Are there no consequences for breaking the laws established by those that God has placed to rule over us?

On a lighter note, has Alec Baldwin left for Canada as he once promised to do, because of his distaste for America?

I think that seeking makes a valid point, as to bible student's theology. If he does not have the core of christian doctrine correct, what is the difference between following him, or mgr, or ghandi, or buddha?

stevepiv · June 25, 2010

Hyper extreme is harmful for MANY issues and do pray that God gives each of us clarity and sense when dealing and discussing this issue or any issue.

Paul's original question has been touched upon but not a clear answer.

How can a Christian Support War? And, how can Christian's take an oath signing themselves over to have "true faith and allegiance to the Constitution", go and kill people and still say they are Christian?

In Most Countries isn't Military Service Mandatory? Where at age 18 you MUST serve. That means those young men in other countries have no choice but to go and fight. In the United States, with a volunteer Armed Forces, people voluntarily sign up, knowing that they will get trained, get a gun and go and KILL.

When an American soldier kills another person that had NO choice, can that be considered INNOCENT BLOOD? And, if the American Church is supporting these troops, elevating them up, will they ever repent for those actions?

King David was NOT able to build the Temple for The Lord because he was a an who shed blood.

1st Chronicles 28:1 Now David assembled at Jerusalem all the leaders of Israel: the officers of the tribes and the captains of the divisions who served the king, the captains over thousands and captains over hundreds, and the stewards over all the substance and possessions of the king and of his sons, with the officials, the valiant men, and all the mighty men of valor.

2 Then King David rose to his feet and said, “Hear me, my brethren and my people: I had it in my heart to build a house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made preparations to build it. 3 But God said to me, ‘You shall not build a house for My name, because you have been a man of war and have shed blood.’

Proverbs mentions this, and as a Christian we should NOT have the desire to do anything The Lord hates or an abomination to Him.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,

18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,

19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren

Peter writes about suffering for Christ's Name and being Blessed for doing so. He also mentions what Christians should NOT be suffering for.

1st Peter 4:12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now “ If the righteous one is scarcely saved,Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?” 19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

We should commit our souls to Him in doing good, to our Faithful Creator.

June 25, 2010

Just a couple of observations, and questions.

Just like hyper calvinism, i think there is hyper pacifism. This is such a hot button topic, and cases have been made for both sides of the debate.

How does God punish evil, or wickedness?

Is punishment only stored up for the end times?

If left to hyper pacifism, would we not live in a state of total anarchy?

Is it accepted by hyper pacifists, that God has established leaders to rule over us, as shown in scripture?

How does God go about protecting his people, or humanity for that matter?

Are there no consequences for breaking the laws established by those that God has placed to rule over us?

On a lighter note, has Alec Baldwin left for Canada as he once promised to do, because of his distaste for America?

I think that seeking makes a valid point, as to bible student's theology. If he does not have the core of christian doctrine correct, what is the difference between following him, or mgr, or ghandi, or buddha?

Nick I agree with all your and Seekings comments.

Anybody, Does God differentiate between innocent blood shed and blood shed during warfare, since God puts all governments in place, I believe it's to chastise or bless, is their a Biblical difference between do no murder and do not kill.

Anybody, check with the Greek and Hebrew Bible manuscripts, the translations can sometimes be inaccurate.

June 25, 2010

There has been too much focus on the soldiers on this issue. If war is evil then those most responsible are the leaders, the United States congress and most especially the commander in chief. If one man orders someone to murder someone, is the one ordering the murder any less a sinner than the one carrying out the deed? People have said that a Chrsitian who happens to be a soldier should lay down theri weapons and refuse to fight, those Christians would then face punishment, possibly imprisonment and the loss of their freedom. The United States Congress and most especially our Commander in Chief have the power to order our soldiers home, or at least to adopt a defensive only position, all they would be risking is their own reelection, and quite possibly not even that. Why would you denigrate the soldiers and not their leaders.

If serving in the military and taking an oath are salvational issues, and remeber you are painting with a very large brush, then how can belonging to the Molokan Church be any less a salvational issue. While individuals may not practice racism, follow a gspel that gives glory to someone other than God, lead others away from the knowledge of and relationship with Jesus Christ, the organization absolutely does. If you support and allow such an organization to exist are you not as guilty as all of the soldiers? It is not rare in the Molokan community for a parent to disown, nver speak to, and to treat a child who marries out and all of their offspring as dead. Is this not a murder if not in fact than in degree? Are any of these things sins and if so are they any better than any other sin. I know you don't like mixing these subjects and feel as if some here are beating a dead horse, but in painting all soldiers with the same brush without knowing their intent or their heart, isn't that the same as assuming all Molokans are going to Hell because of what the Molokan Church believes and practices as an organization? I am not saying this to be sarcastic or hurtful, but it seems wrong to blame all soldiers without putting the blame on all of us, nor is it right to single out one sin to the point of being blind to the others.

Someone who spends their life pointing out others sin while in their own philosphically murdering their children does not seem to be someone who is being led by the Lord. If I remember correclty a prophet had come out to tell DHS that God wanted him to reconcile with a family member, was the message heeded? If you believe in the spirit of prophecy how can you ignore a message from God?

stevepiv · June 26, 2010

El Scorcho Grande,

Thanks for your response. I respect your stance on many points and the points you bring out in many threads are spot on.

This is the first time, i will have to disagree with you.

The American Soldiers are an ALL Volunteer group, meaning people know what they are signing up for. Especially the ones who have signed since 2001, they KNOW they are going to be deployed.

Do the leaders of this Nation have accountability? ABSOLUTELY!!!

But, being that this is a Volunteer group, the Government uses Patriotism, Enticements of Cash, Schooling, now they try to replace a TRUE FAITH in Jesus Christ....to

"a true faith and allegiance to the Constitution."

Now, the government has the American Church backing them and mixes in politics/religion, protecting our "freedom" and is able to recruit "Christians" to take up guns and kill people overseas.

A Molokan parent/relative is NOT right, nor do I agree with someone cutting off/divorcing/separating from someone who leaves the Church. I KNOW HOW THIS FEELS TO BE ON THE RECEIVING END OF BEING CUT OFF....

But, I am still living and so is the other person.

Once a person is killed physically, IT'S DONE.

As an elder recently told me: "While there's breath, there's HOPE"

Hope for them to hear the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

We should look to the Apostles and what they did. It's there in Acts, as a Church they prayed. I don't see them having their own Army.

June 26, 2010

Psalms 144 A Song to the Lord Who Preserves and Prospers His People A Psalm of David.

1Blessed be the Lord my Rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle —

2 My loving kindness and my fortress, My high tower and my deliverer, My shield and the One in whom I take refuge, Who subdues my people under me.

3 Lord, what is man, that You take knowledge of him? Or the son of man, that You are mindful of him?

4 Man is like a breath; His days are like a passing shadow.

5 Bow down Your heavens, O Lord, and come down; Touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.

6 Flash forth lightning and scatter them; Shoot out Your arrows and destroy them.

7 Stretch out Your hand from above; Rescue me and deliver me out of great waters, From the hand of foreigners,

8 Whose mouth speaks lying words, And whose right hand is a right hand of falsehood.

9 I will sing a new song to You, O God; On a harp of ten strings I will sing praises to You,

10 The One who gives salvation to kings, Who delivers David His servant From the deadly sword.

11 Rescue me and deliver me from the hand of foreigners, Whose mouth speaks lying words, And whose right hand is a right hand of falsehood —

12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; That our daughters may be as pillars, Sculptured in palace style;

13 That our barns may be full, Supplying all kinds of produce; That our sheep may bring forth thousands And ten thousands in our fields;

14 That our oxen may be well laden; That there be no breaking in or going out; That there be no outcry in our streets.

15 Happy are the people who are in such a state; Happy are the people whose God is the Lord!

NKJV

Was David blessed by God when he killed Goliath with the first stone?

June 26, 2010

James 2:1-13

My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery", also said, "Do not murder". If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

This passage covers a lot of ground, not only does it instruct us not to favor some Christians over others (this should be glaring), it would also lead us to believe that breaking one sin makes you the equivalent of someone who has broken another, a lawbreaker. In this instance James used the sin of murder, but if you had commited adultery it would stand to reason the result would have been the same. The only sin that is called out as unforgiveable is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. I am not debating the finality of murder, once you die of any reason, your judgement is complete, no more chances, prayers or pomenki's won't do any good. It is an awful thing for anyone to dies without redemption. Someone did point out that Paul was guilty of murder, and not just one, but it would seem that not only was he redeemed, but he was given a commision by Jesus Christ himself. I know you are not saying that the soldiers are beyond redemption (at least I hope you are not), but I do think it is wrong to single them out, if they are guilty, then our leaders might as well have pulled the trigger themselves. Actually if you think about it when it comes to Predator strikes they actually pretty much do.

Steve I can respect your beliefs on being a CO, truth is killing is an awful thing, but for myself personally I really don't know if these wars are of God or not, or I should say is God allowing them for a reason? I am saddened beacuse I have known truly good people who have been killed over there, people who truly were Christians, and I mean truly humble servants of Christ, it seems like a waste, but I also can't definitively say that it doesn't suit God's purpose in some way.

My suggestion is to pray for Peace on God's terms, whatever they may be, that's what I do.

GoodDay · June 26, 2010

I am not sure how this reply is meant but I Will try to answer.

Was David a Christian?

The Question clearly goes against every part of what this Threads Topic is about?

We are all in and understanding of The difference of God's battles back then and these wars of today which has been emphasized over and over.

Psalms 144 A Song to the Lord Who Preserves and Prospers His People A Psalm of David.

1Blessed be the Lord my Rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle —

2 My loving kindness and my fortress, My high tower and my deliverer, My shield and the One in whom I take refuge, Who subdues my people under me.

3 Lord, what is man, that You take knowledge of him? Or the son of man, that You are mindful of him?

4 Man is like a breath; His days are like a passing shadow.

5 Bow down Your heavens, O Lord, and come down; Touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.

6 Flash forth lightning and scatter them; Shoot out Your arrows and destroy them.

7 Stretch out Your hand from above; Rescue me and deliver me out of great waters, From the hand of foreigners,

8 Whose mouth speaks lying words, And whose right hand is a right hand of falsehood.

9 I will sing a new song to You, O God; On a harp of ten strings I will sing praises to You,

10 The One who gives salvation to kings, Who delivers David His servant From the deadly sword.

11 Rescue me and deliver me from the hand of foreigners, Whose mouth speaks lying words, And whose right hand is a right hand of falsehood —

12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; That our daughters may be as pillars, Sculptured in palace style;

13 That our barns may be full, Supplying all kinds of produce; That our sheep may bring forth thousands And ten thousands in our fields;

14 That our oxen may be well laden; That there be no breaking in or going out; That there be no outcry in our streets.

15 Happy are the people who are in such a state; Happy are the people whose God is the Lord!

NKJV

Was David blessed by God when he killed Goliath with the first stone?

GoodDay · June 26, 2010

James 2:1-13

My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery", also said, "Do not murder". If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

This passage covers a lot of ground, not only does it instruct us not to favor some Christians over others (this should be glaring), it would also lead us to believe that breaking one sin makes you the equivalent of someone who has broken another, a lawbreaker. In this instance James used the sin of murder, but if you had commited adultery it would stand to reason the result would have been the same. The only sin that is called out as unforgiveable is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. I am not debating the finality of murder, once you die of any reason, your judgement is complete, no more chances, prayers or pomenki's won't do any good. It is an awful thing for anyone to dies without redemption. Someone did point out that Paul was guilty of murder, and not just one, but it would seem that not only was he redeemed, but he was given a commision by Jesus Christ himself. I know you are not saying that the soldiers are beyond redemption (at least I hope you are not), but I do think it is wrong to single them out, if they are guilty, then our leaders might as well have pulled the trigger themselves. Actually if you think about it when it comes to Predator strikes they actually pretty much do.

Steve I can respect your beliefs on being a CO, truth is killing is an awful thing, but for myself personally I really don't know if these wars are of God or not, or I should say is God allowing them for a reason? I am saddened beacuse I have known truly good people who have been killed over there, people who truly were Christians, and I mean truly humble servants of Christ, it seems like a waste, but I also can't definitively say that it doesn't suit God's purpose in some way.

My suggestion is to pray for Peace on God's terms, whatever they may be, that's what I do.

El Scorcho Grande-

Jesus's Blood will wash away the sins of him who lies, him who murders. It would have covered Hitlers hanious killings. As you mentioned about Paul, yes, He was redeemed. Paul is the perfect example of why man CANNOT take into his own hands to kill a murderer, because he now is a murderer because a murderer can by all means become white as snow and become a warrior for Jesus, the one who saved him.

It is sad when our friends are killed in any way shape or form. In this case, it's even more sad as if they stayed away from wars of man, they still could have had a life of serving God. Christian men are COMMANDED to take care of thier families. If they do not, its written that they are worse then and infidel

(Unbeleiver). There are soldiers who call them self christians and they are tempting God. If they die, there family was abonding by the Head of The House Hold. Them being "good" does not make them Christians. Taking and oath and signing thier lives over to man and serving them, lead to them being killed. If they died unrepented unlike Apostle Paul, then I can't say anything more then, they died in thier sin. If they repented- (We didn;t have to see it), then they are with the Lord. Apostle paul is probably the best example I can think of to show that if soldiers went out and killed him, they would have snuffed out his eternity.

One must also realize that even if Hitler did not kill all those who he did he still was bound for hell. The actual sin is not weighed against others as they are no different than the other as a man who breaks one law, breaks them all or is at least as guilty as if if broke every law.

I am truly sorry to hear that you lost friends in the war, but I want to ask you. Did you ever have talkes with them about why they thought they were serving God by giving their live to the Country and it's leaders and going through traing to kill? What was their motives and what did they expect to get out of it? Did they say God actually called them to go through all of this? I mean that all sincerely as I would like to know what really goes through the mind of people that join up in these wars when they know what happens in them and if one innocent life is taken, all the soldiers are guilty because they become a unit. They are trained to become like one just as Christians strive to be in one mind when worshipping God. Did they read somewhere in the Bible that covicted them? Did their pastors convince them? Etc,,

Paul

GoodDay · June 26, 2010

I was just reading this article on the headlines.

It's a bit off the main topic but I wanted to use it to clarify what the US is getting themselves into over and over. If the don't follow God America will soon run of out all resources to do anything excpet turn to God and repent. They are being threatened more and more and when that happens America cannot humble herself to stay away from doing things that will bring WAY bigger consciquences.

This Border Patrol literally murdered this Mexican Kid- It doesn't matter what side of the border he was on or about illegal immigrants sneaking in etc..

Hone in on this oen incident and block all the other stuff out because its impertanent.

Read through and watch the short video and pay attention to the Threats from the Mexicans on the last line.

I dont know if the murderer claims to be a Christian or not but this shows why a Christian should not even be in a job such as this with weapons that murder.

http://en.terra.com/latin-in-america/news/...agents/hof10091

A Christian would want to ease off and leave things alone as to save lives from the ones who can die by them who are giving threats.

The ways of the devil would be to get MORE force and show them that they do not know who they are messing with, resulting in a bunch more murderrs on both side

GoodDay · June 26, 2010

Just a couple of observations, and questions.

Just like hyper calvinism, i think there is hyper pacifism. This is such a hot button topic, and cases have been made for both sides of the debate.

How does God punish evil, or wickedness?

Is punishment only stored up for the end times?

If left to hyper pacifism, would we not live in a state of total anarchy?

Is it accepted by hyper pacifists, that God has established leaders to rule over us, as shown in scripture?

How does God go about protecting his people, or humanity for that matter?

Are there no consequences for breaking the laws established by those that God has placed to rule over us?

On a lighter note, has Alec Baldwin left for Canada as he once promised to do, because of his distaste for America?

I think that seeking makes a valid point, as to bible student's theology. If he does not have the core of christian doctrine correct, what is the difference between following him, or mgr, or ghandi, or buddha?

Nick I agree with all your and Seekings comments.

Anybody, Does God differentiate between innocent blood shed and blood shed during warfare, since God puts all governments in place, I believe it's to chastise or bless, is their a Biblical difference between do no murder and do not kill.

Anybody, check with the Greek and Hebrew Bible manuscripts, the translations can sometimes be inaccurate.

We have allready gone through the Greek and Hebrew and it's right on.

The topic is about Christian supporting war. Or going to war.

Can someone bring out some deeper insight to what an oath is and how Jesus means it when he talks about it?

It surprise me how a person who claims to be a Christian would even mess with taking the chance joining a war and

being in the worst place they can be.

Actually this topic is getting simpliar as it goes along.

It really doesn't matter what the Bible says about Christians

There are NO Christians in these wars.

Once they give the Oath and swear their allegiance to Their Country, they are shutting them selves off from God and are just the same as all the others that are fighting for the reason of their choice.

The only hope they have is that they are not killed before they have a chance to see thier error and repent.

It really comes down to just the Oath. If I become a Buddist, do I use The Holy Bible to guide me? No, it's for God's people

Once that is all done, their are no other justifications in the Bible to use, because it does not pertain to them.

stevepiv · June 26, 2010

The messengers credibility does have quite a bit to do with the message

Tell you what...

Why not ask Bible "student"

1) Who is Jesus

2) How is Salvation secured

3) Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God

4) Is the s&l "god inspired"

If you can get honest answers to those I believe you will understand the credibility of the messenger and therefore the message

I think that seeking makes a valid point, as to bible student's theology. If he does not have the core of christian doctrine correct, what is the difference between following him, or mgr, or ghandi, or buddha?

How about asking that of the President, V.P., Defense of Secretary, Congress, Senate, House of Rep's...

How about asking them those same questions????

How about their credibility???

How about their theology????

GoodDay · June 26, 2010

There has been too much focus on the soldiers on this issue. If war is evil then those most responsible are the leaders, the United States congress and most especially the commander in chief. If one man orders someone to murder someone, is the one ordering the murder any less a sinner than the one carrying out the deed? People have said that a Chrsitian who happens to be a soldier should lay down theri weapons and refuse to fight, those Christians would then face punishment, possibly imprisonment and the loss of their freedom. The United States Congress and most especially our Commander in Chief have the power to order our soldiers home, or at least to adopt a defensive only position, all they would be risking is their own reelection, and quite possibly not even that. Why would you denigrate the soldiers and not their leaders.

If serving in the military and taking an oath are salvational issues, and remeber you are painting with a very large brush, then how can belonging to the Molokan Church be any less a salvational issue. While individuals may not practice racism, follow a gspel that gives glory to someone other than God, lead others away from the knowledge of and relationship with Jesus Christ, the organization absolutely does. If you support and allow such an organization to exist are you not as guilty as all of the soldiers? It is not rare in the Molokan community for a parent to disown, nver speak to, and to treat a child who marries out and all of their offspring as dead. Is this not a murder if not in fact than in degree? Are any of these things sins and if so are they any better than any other sin. I know you don't like mixing these subjects and feel as if some here are beating a dead horse, but in painting all soldiers with the same brush without knowing their intent or their heart, isn't that the same as assuming all Molokans are going to Hell because of what the Molokan Church believes and practices as an organization? I am not saying this to be sarcastic or hurtful, but it seems wrong to blame all soldiers without putting the blame on all of us, nor is it right to single out one sin to the point of being blind to the others.

Someone who spends their life pointing out others sin while in their own philosphically murdering their children does not seem to be someone who is being led by the Lord. If I remember correclty a prophet had come out to tell DHS that God wanted him to reconcile with a family member, was the message heeded? If you believe in the spirit of prophecy how can you ignore a message from God?

I to enjoy and agree with all your past posts and loof forward to when you reply.

You do have a point about the leadership needing to be brought more into focus too. Yes they defenitaly are guilty as well. If soldiers were drafted or forced to fight or if they brainwashed little children to hate Amricans as some countries do then, by all mean they are double guilty.

The focus really does go back to the topic a Christian supporting war. They have lots of time to make their choice to join or to turn and flee. Once they take that Oath, they are part of that unit.

A person gives their life to christ. Noow look at it a all the members that make up The Chruch. Together, in unison, in the same Spirit, The church is alive and Jesus being at the head, it can a thing of beauty all working to gether to bring others to Jesus for His GLory!.

A person gives their life to a Goverment. Now look at all the members that make up the Army. Together, in unison, in the same spirit, the Army is alive and The Government at the head, it becomes a ugly bloody battle field with murdered people never having a chance to even hear of Jesus and His GLory!

NO person can possibly give thier life to both. Man cannot serve two masters.

If a "Christian" lays down thier weapons and refuses to fight as you mentioned, do thier really lose thier freedom? Think about it.

Them who continue on to death will never see freedom again.

Christ sets men free, no one else. earthly freedom being a reason for war has nothing to do with God

Nick Shubin · June 26, 2010

It's easy for us to debate this, in a country where we have freedom of speech. Go to any one of the countries that are being opressed, or live under a tyranical regime, see how far a discussion like this will last.

Paul, you ask for proof of these wars being ordained by God. Do you have proof that they aren't?

For me, the bottom line is this, i know that God in the past ordained war. Does he currently? I don't know. What i do know, is that someone took a bullet, so that i could have the freedom to talk about this on this forum. Who am i to judge that person? We are called on to pray for them, as well as those that are placed in wordly authority over us. If one says that these men and women, who are in the armed services are going to hell, then you are no better than the hyper calvinist who claims that he is choosen over another person.

GoodDay · June 26, 2010

Just a couple of observations, and questions.

Just like hyper calvinism, i think there is hyper pacifism. This is such a hot button topic, and cases have been made for both sides of the debate.

How does God punish evil, or wickedness?

Is punishment only stored up for the end times?

If left to hyper pacifism, would we not live in a state of total anarchy?

Is it accepted by hyper pacifists, that God has established leaders to rule over us, as shown in scripture?

How does God go about protecting his people, or humanity for that matter?

Are there no consequences for breaking the laws established by those that God has placed to rule over us?

On a lighter note, has Alec Baldwin left for Canada as he once promised to do, because of his distaste for America?

I think that seeking makes a valid point, as to bible student's theology. If he does not have the core of christian doctrine correct, what is the difference between following him, or mgr, or ghandi, or buddha?

There can never be to much peace. The reason there is little peace is that so many are hyper war. Violence is absence of peace

Anything that has do do with lives being takin when they should ne be is a heavy issue- And I am surprised at how light so many take it.

Nick, by all means there is nothing wrong with protecting. Just as you and all good fathers watch over and protect thier kids out of pure love.

Now, this is only an example. If the Head of a household was off guard for a bit and another person injured or did something terrible to thier child they should dealt with in a way that does not lead to them being beat up or tortured or killed. That is revenge and even though we may feel like doing that it does not give us the right to. People who do sickning things to children can be locked up for life and I wouldn't care. BUT, they still can be called to Jesus as those crimes in themselves are not what would be sending them to hell ans they were allready hell bond just as us at one time.

as far as Police officers, I now see it as job that a Christian wouldn't be called to do. Not all cops are bad in any way, but it just seems that many of them are taking things out on the criminals rather that doing their job. regardless of how evil of a criminal they catch, they cannot go beyond their job and take out some of thier anger on them. If Bin Laden was picked up in LA, they can only do thier job and again, he should not be led to death, even if he askes for it.

I never heard that about Alec Baldwin but Rush Limbaugh needs to start packing his bags and going to Canada too- He promised if Obamas Health plan passed he would go.

Imagine what thier discussion would be like when they leave together :-) I am not sure abouit thier beliefs, I know Alec has a Brother who is a Christan

GoodDay · June 26, 2010

Nick,

Where do you get your teachings from??

Wow, do I have proof that these wars were not ordained from God? Show me where I can find Him in it? Allowed, sure. Ordained, clearly not. Look at the fruits of them in office. I here Conservative Republican bag on Obama the time about his faith etc. Muslim all that junk. But for them that should be a good sign. Have you read the oaths a person takes? Since when did God start enforcing that? They have blaspheme him by using His name! Why not just be safe and keep out of supporting it?

I agree that He ordained wars in the past. Its all over the Old Testament. If you are unsure about these wars you need to be careful. You are taking a chance. A scary chance. Wow, your Ok with a person getting killed in a war so you can talk about God? Show me that in the Bible?

Read the Bible! It does NOT say to pray for the government to succeed in war etc.. They need prayer so they turn to God for wisdom. Many blame the immigrants for the Countries problems in the same breath as they praise the ones that are causing them.

The Bible is clear about people going to hell if they dont turn from their sin- I did not make that up! I am sticking uo for the ones they are murdering, that will never get to hear about heaven. Why do you not care about them?

You love your freedom that was purchased by the blood of a man?

I will pray for you too!

Jesus Christ is The Blood you need!

You are saying that being a Christian is a life of freedom so people can have discussions like this?

It's easy for us to debate this, in a country where we have freedom of speech. Go to any one of the countries that are being opressed, or live under a tyranical regime, see how far a discussion like this will last.

Paul, you ask for proof of these wars being ordained by God. Do you have proof that they aren't?

For me, the bottom line is this, i know that God in the past ordained war. Does he currently? I don't know. What i do know, is that someone took a bullet, so that i could have the freedom to talk about this on this forum. Who am i to judge that person? We are called on to pray for them, as well as those that are placed in wordly authority over us. If one says that these men and women, who are in the armed services are going to hell, then you are no better than the hyper calvinist who claims that he is choosen over another person.

Edited June 26, 2010 by GoodDay

KevinPolyaNazaroff · June 26, 2010

No where in scripture will you find a hint of a thought that a Christian will loose their salvation because they support war.

In fact, you will not find anywhere in scripture that a Christian can or will loose his Salvation for anything.

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ro 8:38-39 NASB

Pacifism and patriotism are not salvational.

For arguments sake, even if it were a salvational issue, then also, our lack of submission toward authorities should also be a salvational issue.

God uses the government, evil or not, to punish the wicked.

He always did, and always will.

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,

14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 1 Pe 2:13-14 NASB

The God of the old and new Testament punishes evildoers, and he uses the authorities to carry out His divine, just punishment.

God creates some things for the purpose of destruction...

God is glorified in both His grace and wrath.

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Ro 9:22 NASB

Christians will not be judged for their patriotism or pacifism.

But, in saying that, all men will be held accountable for any blood that was shed.

Here, God commands His chosen people to enforce what we currently call "capital punishment".

5 “Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood,

By man his blood shall be shed,

For in the image of God

He made man. Ge 9:5-6 NASB

If some heathen murders one of my family members, I would pray for that sinners soul, that God would save him.

I would continue to pray for him right up until the day of his execution.

That is God's righteous mercy.

God always protects His children, and will punish any that harm them.

Jesus said they should be killed by drowning.

2 “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble. Lk 17:2 NASB

6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6 NASB

7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God!

For You have smitten all my enemies on the cheek;

You have shattered the teeth of the wicked.

Ps 3:7 NASB

Kevin Nazaroff

GoodDay · June 26, 2010

And Nick,

Look at the irony of this all. We have all this freedom from God so we can sit behind computers and allow that freedom to go to waste.

THATs why America is a war-monger. Americas Christian churchs uses their freedom to waste it on more wars to protec that freedom. Kind of silly, huh? What is America trying to prove? Looks like there is more wars coming and hate towars immigrants and politcal garbage splitting people up.

Wow- What a cool thing this Goverment does to people.

Now its clear why we are just called to pray for the leaders, not jump at their ever command.

It's easy for us to debate this, in a country where we have freedom of speech. Go to any one of the countries that are being opressed, or live under a tyranical regime, see how far a discussion like this will last.

Paul, you ask for proof of these wars being ordained by God. Do you have proof that they aren't?

For me, the bottom line is this, i know that God in the past ordained war. Does he currently? I don't know. What i do know, is that someone took a bullet, so that i could have the freedom to talk about this on this forum. Who am i to judge that person? We are called on to pray for them, as well as those that are placed in wordly authority over us. If one says that these men and women, who are in the armed services are going to hell, then you are no better than the hyper calvinist who claims that he is choosen over another person.

GoodDay · June 26, 2010

No where in scripture will you find a hint of a thought that a Christian will loose their salvation because they support war.

In fact, you will not find anywhere in scripture that a Christian can or will loose his Salvation for anything.

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ro 8:38-39 NASB

Pacifism and patriotism are not salvational.

For arguments sake, even if it were a salvational issue, then also, our lack of submission toward authorities should also be a salvational issue.

God uses the government, evil or not, to punish the wicked.

He always did, and always will.

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,

14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 1 Pe 2:13-14 NASB

The God of the old and new Testament punishes evildoers, and he uses the authorities to carry out His divine, just punishment.

God creates some things for the purpose of destruction...

God is glorified in both His grace and wrath.

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Ro 9:22 NASB

Christians will not be judged for their patriotism or pacifism.

But, in saying that, all men will be held accountable for any blood that was shed.

Here, God commands His chosen people to enforce what we currently call "capital punishment".

5 "Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.

6 "Whoever sheds man's blood,

By man his blood shall be shed,

For in the image of God

He made man. Ge 9:5-6 NASB

If some heathen murders one of my family members, I would pray for that sinners soul, that God would save him.

I would continue to pray for him right up until the day of his execution.

That is God's righteous mercy.

God always protects His children, and will punish any that harm them.

Jesus said they should be killed by drowning.

2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble. Lk 17:2 NASB

6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6 NASB

7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God!

For You have smitten all my enemies on the cheek;

You have shattered the teeth of the wicked.

Ps 3:7 NASB

Kevin Nazaroff

Kevin,

You allready have a stored up vision of what it will be like when an execution that will never happen takes place.

Why are you picturing the out come of what you would want to see happen to that heathen?

Don't forget, Apostle Paul. Apostle Paul deserved that execution you speak of. Did God, go back on His Word? Why was Paul spared? Why would God allow Paul to live but allow the exiction of the heathen you speak of?

Jesus is NOT talking about us killing anyone!! ?? How do you come to that?

Kevin,

Your are saying that God's people are executing people today????

Kevin,

I agree that a person cannot lose thier Salvation. That's why there are no Christians in wars. All people in wars give oaths which gives their life to their Country. They become the leaders posession.

BUT they can be spared just like Apostle Paul was.

Signing up and giving a person life to them that lead the war, by all means is Salvational.

a person going to wars shows that he was not saved in the first place

GoodDay · June 26, 2010

Kevin,

Pascifism obviously isall about Salvation

Patriotism is totally against everything that Jesus die for???

How Can A Christian Support War?

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