Khlyst Evidence

August 10, 2010

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize. To sit there on your keyboard and equate them to one Russian mystic (and there were many in this era) is borderline delusional. Best I can tell is you are reading in between the lines and then jumping to some extensive conclusions. I would almost say you are flat out fibbing.

seeking_truth_1 · August 10, 2010

You obviously have not done your homework

Who does this sound EXACTLY like?

Excerpt from "The Place Of Kabbalah In The Doctrine Of Russian Freemasonry" by KONSTANTIN BURMISTROV & MARIA ENDEL

An interesting mystical Illuminati society "The New Israel" (or "The People of God") was founded in 1785 by a Polish nobleman Tadeusz (Thaddeus) Leszczyc-Grabianka (1740-1807) at Avignon and moved in the early 19th century to St. Petersburg.

The first Russians were incorporated into this organization at the end of 1780s (e.g. Vice Admiral S.I. Pleshcheyev and Prince N.V. Repnin) but after his arrival in St. Petersburg (in August, 1805) Grabianka found numerous admirers among the aristocracy (meetings of the society took place in the Marble Palace, in the rooms of the crown-prince Konstantin Pavlovich). Among the members were almost all eminent Russian Rosicrucians; they predicted that ˜by God`s order, the Second and near Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ, and His glorious reign on the earth` would occur in 1835.

A select part of the members of the society constituted a "Council of Prophets" and had "correspondence with heaven". The prophesies were accomplished in an ecstatic state, and the preparation to this experience required keeping the fast and solitude. Grabianka, the "King of the New Israel", is known to have had a keen interest in Jewish mysticism; he was a pupil of the abbÃ© Louis-Philibert de Morveau (Brumore) (?-1786), a famous mason, alchemist and kabbalist, ˜a wiseman "who had a voice [i.e. the gift of prophecy]" through the science of numbers, or Kabbalah`. M. Longinov suggested that ˜Grabianka had to read the Bible very assiduously, and studying it he expected to attain an understanding of the higher magic that was promised to him due to kabbalistic computations`. His prediction of the Second Advent was probably based on these computations".

Pg. 465 Bk. 9 Art. 15 Ver. 4

And this is why I, Maxim, personally became a true son of God eternally in His Spirit, and a new heir of all the world, or the progenitor of all the new Israel,

Pg. 494 Bk. 10 Art. 5 Ver. 5-7

"For truly I [M.G.R.] lie not, but speak all of this according to the Spirit. Concerning this ecumenical spirit of the people shouts in agreement with me in every place. "Gracious is the passing nineteenth century!" During it the Lord God Almighty will Himself before our eyes execute His judgment upon the harlot and the beast who bears her. Then He will establish for us upon the land that which Adam and Eve once had in Paradise.."

Yet Scripture says

42 "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

43 "But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

44 "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (Matthew 24:42-44)

You have no clue

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize. To sit there on your keyboard and equate them to one Russian mystic (and there were many in this era) is borderline delusional. Best I can tell is you are reading in between the lines and then jumping to some extensive conclusions. I would almost say you are flat out fibbing.

August 10, 2010

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize. To sit there on your keyboard and equate them to one Russian mystic (and there were many in this era) is borderline delusional. Best I can tell is you are reading in between the lines and then jumping to some extensive conclusions. I would almost say you are flat out fibbing.

Listed are only a few Khlyst beliefs that are found in the Spirit and Life Written by A.G.H. courtesy of http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/k/khlysty.html

According to the precepts the founder of the Khlysty sect or brotherhood was Danila Filipich. The name means "Men of God," or the "Khlysty." Around the beginning of the eighteenth century he instructed his followers to: "Keep my laws secret, entrust them neither to your father nor to your mother, be steadfast and silent even under the lash or the flames; thus you will enter the kingdom of Heaven, and even here on earth receive the bliss of the spirit."

The priests of the Church had missed the true road to God which only the prophets of the secret brotherhood preached. The Church doctrine, which was earthly and lacking in inspiration, clung only to the letter of the law, while the Khlysty teachings were inspired by God. The man, who through grace, was in direct communication with the Holy Spirit no longer needed the laws and ritual forms that the Church devised hinder human reason.

This was the example set forth by Danbila Filipich who before becoming enlightened was a serious student of the Scriptures and other religious writings; but afterwards discarded all of these works and became a seeker of the truth in the "golden book of life."

One of the basic Khlysty teachings was of the ever-renewing reincarnation of God, or the Lord, in man.

This reincarnation of God in man is only achieved by the total self-denial and submission to the will of the Holy Spirit.

Once the person has underwent this mystical transformation he shares in the divine abilities to heal, prophesy, raise the dead, rescue souls from hell and lead them to heaven. Also on the day of the Last Judgment he can deliver out rewards and punishments.

This man was thought to be God and man together, a new Christ.

It was from such teachings that the cardinal belief of the Khlysty sect was born, only after a man had sinned greatly could he be truly repentant and pleasing to God.

However, other forms of love were permitted by the Khlysty. Participants were allowed to sleep with partners in "spiritual marriages" but no carnal relationships were to occur between them.

Like the Khlysty sectarians who held their teachings came directly from God and were not known by the common Orthodox Russians, the Gnostics believed that Jesus shared secret teachings with them which He did not tell the ordinary members of the Christian faith.

Whereas the Khlysty saw sin as the way to salvation. It was believed that only after sinning could a man be sincerely repentant and pleasing to God.

coffee · August 10, 2010

.

Regarding:

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize. To sit there on your keyboard and equate them to one Russian mystic (and there were many in this era) is borderline delusional. Best I can tell is you are reading in between the lines and then jumping to some extensive conclusions. I would almost say you are flat out fibbing.

Delusional? Jumping to conclusions? Fibbing?

Not hardly!

This topic has been covered so thoroughly over the years that I am amazed to see that we continue to revisit the subject of Rudometkin's Khlysty forefathers and the Khlystical influences upon the origin of the "Jumper" sect in Russia. For those who might not be familiar with this historical information, I am bringing to the top the thread entitled "History".

I would like to highlight a few of the excerpts from that thread:

Following are some historical facts, reprinted from a book entitled "Na Ghorakh", written by P. I. Melnikov, Second Edition, Fifth Volume, St. Petersburg, 1909.

(Translated from the original Russian)

God's People, or the Khlysty, as they are usually called among the people, believe that it is possible, in a direct, immediate connection, to always communicate the human soul with divinity. Being similar to the Dukhabors, they preach that the physical incarnation of Christ permanently and perpetually dwells on earth. This sect cannot even be considered as a denomination that is part of the Christian heresy.

(Part 3, Page 225)

The stories of God's People (the Khlysty) continue... about those christs who existed previously and now, about those christs who continue to walk the earth. Stories are heard how they (these christs) were imprisoned and how in Moscow they were crucified, but how on the third day they resurrected. It is heard that now, at the foot of Mount Ararat, lives a new christ, Makcim, who is regarded as a prophet, high priest and the king of God's People (the Khlysty)....

(Part 3, Page 264)

For several consecutive years, Igor Sergeyevitch travelled, going to central Russia, then to the Volga region, then to new Russia, even going to Siberia and abroad to Moldavia. Everywhere he went, he became acquainted with the People of God (the Khlysty) and before he returned, while he was in the Transcaucases, he became acquainted there with the "Visionaries", or better known by the name the "Jumpers".

The Visionaries. They called only themselves by this name because they were convinced that they visualized the Holy Spirit. They also called themselves the "spiritual". Because of the fact that the Visionaries take part in a physical manifestation of spirit, like the Khlysty, and also because they make believe as if they "visualize the spirit" or spirits, the outsiders call them (the Visionaries) "Jumpers" and "Shakers".

This sect, a blend of the teachings and practices of the Molokans mixed with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty, arose among those who were banished to the Transcaucases together with the Molokans from the Milky Water region. They (the Visionaries) consider their founder to be Lukian Sokoloff. The biggest part of the Jumper sect lives in the village of Nikitino, close to Alexandropol. They are also found in the region of Erevan, in the Lenkoransko region and in other areas of the Transcaucases.

The successor of Sokoloff was Makcim Rudometkin, or Komar, who was regarded as a christ, prophet, high priest and king of the "spiritual" (the Jumpers or Visionaries). He was triumphantly and pompously coronated in the village of Nikitino--(That is, this new sect is altogether different and separate from the original Molokans who call themselves "True Spiritual Christians".)

The people from the Lupovits region impatiently waited for the return of Igor Sergeyevitch. He travelled from the foot of Mount Ararat, from the places near the upper regions of the Euphrates River, where, before the beginning of creation, God's earthly paradise was planted and where, according to how the People of God (the Khlysty) believe, God will open up anew for the glorious existence of the holy righteous, for the everlasting service of their God and Lamb.

The news reached the Lupovits region that there, at the foot of Mount Ararat, appeared a king, prophet and high priest who was triumphantly and pompously coronated and who, having clothed himself in royal purple, along with other distinguishing royal attire, he put on a crown and , in imitation of King David, with a harp in hand, danced and jumped among a large throng of people on the broad street of the village of Nikitino. The news also reached the Lupovits region that this King Komar (Rudometkin) saved aside the wife to whom he was legally married and he took himself an additional "spiritual" wife.

It was explained that all the "holy men" from the Mount Ararat region had "Spiritual" wives. Some had one, others had two and still others had three "spiritual" wives. (Part 3, Page 119)

Lukian Peter Sokoloff. He was a Molokan from the settlement of Lalamatin, in the county of Kamishinska, in the state of Saratov, who, yet from the year of 1836, while living in the Milky Water region, began to concentrate his efforts to blend and mix the teachings and practices of the Molokans with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty, but he did not have any success there with his mystical teachings and enthusiastic ceremonies. It is unknown where Sokoloff then left to but it is said that he possibly went to Moldavia.

In 1836, when the people in the Milky Water region awaited the end of the world, there appeared his (Sokoloff's) accomplices (it is unknown who they were), calling themselves the Apocalyptical "Enoch and Elijah". Their boldness reached the point where they even interrupted church services in the Orthodox temple, shouting out during the services and doing different licentious acts. Right after them appeared the Judge of the living and the dead, the christ and prophet, Lukian Sokoloff.

More than once, he (Sokoloff) designated the day of fearful judgement, but the archangel's trumpet never did roar, although Sokoloff brought attention to Halley's Comet (which appeared in 1836) and how it was the foreteller of the fact that the end of the world was near. With each night, the comet got brighter and brighter but the people got used to it and in the end, it began to fade away and then Enoch, Elijah and even the Judge, Lukian Sokoloff, vanished to unknown places.

Soon he (Sokoloff) appeared in the state of Samaria and there, many Molokans and Khlysty were enticed (by Sokoloff) to the Transcaucases. More than once, he led a crowd of followers by enticing them to the foot of Mount Ararat, returning past the praries of the Volga region for new migrants, but it is unknown what happened to him in the end. Traces of him appeared in Bessarabia. Sokoloff was in Asiatic Turkey and Persia, and from there, he returned to the state of Erevan, where his continued efforts to blend and mix the teachings and practices of the Molokans with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty produced the separate heresy, the "Jumpers" or "Visionaries".

He was especially close with Makcim Komar or Rudometkin, who, it is said, was the first from among the Molokans to participate in the physical manifestation of the Khlysty, (which took place during their special mystical and enthusiastic services called the "radenia"), in the village of Nikitino. It is unknown what happened to Lukian Sokoloff. (Part 3, Pages 295-296)

And Makcim (Rudometkin) reigned over the "People of God" (Khlysty). On the street of the village of Nikitino, during a ceremony under the open sky, he put on a royal crown, along with a robe of royal purple, and he leaped and danced in the manner of King David, playing music on the stringed organ, and, placing himself as Christ, he (Rudometkin) took upon himself the rank of High Priest and Prophet above all prophets. ( Part 3, Page 291)

…and among the sectarians at Mt. Ararat, the Khlysty began to blend and mix together with the Molokans, both rejecting and renouncing the (Russian Orthodox) Church and all of its ceremonies and rituals. From this mixture of Khlysty blended with Molokans, arose, first in the Caucasus, and then in other places in Southern Russia, the sect known as "Visionaries" or "Jumpers" ….and from among the Visionaries appeared a king, prophet and high priest. This king Makcim (Rudometkin) received unlimited authority and domination over the Jumpers, and for the most part, contributed to the blending of the doctrines of the Khlysty with the teachings and practices of the Molokans. It is generally known that he is responsible for changing the old teachings of the Khlysty and for dictating new laws, including the practice of taking a "spiritual wife". (Part 3, Page 226)

And what about "spiritual wives" among the sectarians living at Mt. Ararat ? This also Makcim (Rudometkin) instituted. Now he has two wives, and others there (among his followers) have three and even more (spiritual wives) …they (his followers) say there (at Mt. Ararat) that "we are the 'People of God' (Khlysty), led by the spirit, we are 'New Israel', and we conduct ourselves as it was with Israel (Jacob) who had two wives, who were related between themselves as sisters (Leah and Rachel), and, besides that, he (Jacob) had two maidservants (Zilpah and Bilhah), and from all of these four (women) come forth (Genesis 29:14 – Genesis 30:24), equally blessed, the offspring (12 tribes) of Israel (Jacob)". (Part 3, Page 297)

In his book entitled Russian Noncomformity (Page 110), the Russian historian Serge Bolshakoff, writes that in addition to "preserving their own Khlysty features", the new Jumper sect adopted the mystical Khlysty ritual of "sacred dancing and prophesying", and they changed the Khlysty office of "christ", renaming him "czar/king" (as in "Czar Dooghov/King of Spirits").

.

seeking_truth_1 · August 10, 2010

An interesting mystical Illuminati society "The New Israel" (or "The People of God") was founded in 1785 by a Polish nobleman Tadeusz (Thaddeus) Leszczyc-Grabianka (1740-1807) at Avignon and moved in the early 19th century to St. Petersburg.

The notion of a "New Israel" or "people of God" all have their roots in mysticism

.

Regarding:

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize. To sit there on your keyboard and equate them to one Russian mystic (and there were many in this era) is borderline delusional. Best I can tell is you are reading in between the lines and then jumping to some extensive conclusions. I would almost say you are flat out fibbing.

Delusional? Jumping to conclusions? Fibbing?

Not hardly!

This topic has been covered so thoroughly over the years that I am amazed to see that we continue to revisit the subject of Rudometkin's Khlysty forefathers and the Khlystical influences upon the origin of the "Jumper" sect in Russia. For those who might not be familiar with this historical information, I am bringing to the top the thread entitled "History".

I would like to highlight a few of the excerpts from that thread:

Following are some historical facts, reprinted from a book entitled "Na Ghorakh", written by P. I. Melnikov, Second Edition, Fifth Volume, St. Petersburg, 1909.

(Translated from the original Russian)

God's People, or the Khlysty, as they are usually called among the people, believe that it is possible, in a direct, immediate connection, to always communicate the human soul with divinity. Being similar to the Dukhabors, they preach that the physical incarnation of Christ permanently and perpetually dwells on earth. This sect cannot even be considered as a denomination that is part of the Christian heresy.

(Part 3, Page 225)

The stories of God's People (the Khlysty) continue... about those christs who existed previously and now, about those christs who continue to walk the earth. Stories are heard how they (these christs) were imprisoned and how in Moscow they were crucified, but how on the third day they resurrected. It is heard that now, at the foot of Mount Ararat, lives a new christ, Makcim, who is regarded as a prophet, high priest and the king of God's People (the Khlysty)....

(Part 3, Page 264)

For several consecutive years, Igor Sergeyevitch travelled, going to central Russia, then to the Volga region, then to new Russia, even going to Siberia and abroad to Moldavia. Everywhere he went, he became acquainted with the People of God (the Khlysty) and before he returned, while he was in the Transcaucases, he became acquainted there with the "Visionaries", or better known by the name the "Jumpers".

The Visionaries. They called only themselves by this name because they were convinced that they visualized the Holy Spirit. They also called themselves the "spiritual". Because of the fact that the Visionaries take part in a physical manifestation of spirit, like the Khlysty, and also because they make believe as if they "visualize the spirit" or spirits, the outsiders call them (the Visionaries) "Jumpers" and "Shakers".

This sect, a blend of the teachings and practices of the Molokans mixed with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty, arose among those who were banished to the Transcaucases together with the Molokans from the Milky Water region. They (the Visionaries) consider their founder to be Lukian Sokoloff. The biggest part of the Jumper sect lives in the village of Nikitino, close to Alexandropol. They are also found in the region of Erevan, in the Lenkoransko region and in other areas of the Transcaucases.

The successor of Sokoloff was Makcim Rudometkin, or Komar, who was regarded as a christ, prophet, high priest and king of the "spiritual" (the Jumpers or Visionaries). He was triumphantly and pompously coronated in the village of Nikitino--(That is, this new sect is altogether different and separate from the original Molokans who call themselves "True Spiritual Christians".)

The people from the Lupovits region impatiently waited for the return of Igor Sergeyevitch. He travelled from the foot of Mount Ararat, from the places near the upper regions of the Euphrates River, where, before the beginning of creation, God's earthly paradise was planted and where, according to how the People of God (the Khlysty) believe, God will open up anew for the glorious existence of the holy righteous, for the everlasting service of their God and Lamb.

The news reached the Lupovits region that there, at the foot of Mount Ararat, appeared a king, prophet and high priest who was triumphantly and pompously coronated and who, having clothed himself in royal purple, along with other distinguishing royal attire, he put on a crown and , in imitation of King David, with a harp in hand, danced and jumped among a large throng of people on the broad street of the village of Nikitino. The news also reached the Lupovits region that this King Komar (Rudometkin) saved aside the wife to whom he was legally married and he took himself an additional "spiritual" wife.

It was explained that all the "holy men" from the Mount Ararat region had "Spiritual" wives. Some had one, others had two and still others had three "spiritual" wives. (Part 3, Page 119)

Lukian Peter Sokoloff. He was a Molokan from the settlement of Lalamatin, in the county of Kamishinska, in the state of Saratov, who, yet from the year of 1836, while living in the Milky Water region, began to concentrate his efforts to blend and mix the teachings and practices of the Molokans with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty, but he did not have any success there with his mystical teachings and enthusiastic ceremonies. It is unknown where Sokoloff then left to but it is said that he possibly went to Moldavia.

In 1836, when the people in the Milky Water region awaited the end of the world, there appeared his (Sokoloff's) accomplices (it is unknown who they were), calling themselves the Apocalyptical "Enoch and Elijah". Their boldness reached the point where they even interrupted church services in the Orthodox temple, shouting out during the services and doing different licentious acts. Right after them appeared the Judge of the living and the dead, the christ and prophet, Lukian Sokoloff.

More than once, he (Sokoloff) designated the day of fearful judgement, but the archangel's trumpet never did roar, although Sokoloff brought attention to Halley's Comet (which appeared in 1836) and how it was the foreteller of the fact that the end of the world was near. With each night, the comet got brighter and brighter but the people got used to it and in the end, it began to fade away and then Enoch, Elijah and even the Judge, Lukian Sokoloff, vanished to unknown places.

Soon he (Sokoloff) appeared in the state of Samaria and there, many Molokans and Khlysty were enticed (by Sokoloff) to the Transcaucases. More than once, he led a crowd of followers by enticing them to the foot of Mount Ararat, returning past the praries of the Volga region for new migrants, but it is unknown what happened to him in the end. Traces of him appeared in Bessarabia. Sokoloff was in Asiatic Turkey and Persia, and from there, he returned to the state of Erevan, where his continued efforts to blend and mix the teachings and practices of the Molokans with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty produced the separate heresy, the "Jumpers" or "Visionaries".

He was especially close with Makcim Komar or Rudometkin, who, it is said, was the first from among the Molokans to participate in the physical manifestation of the Khlysty, (which took place during their special mystical and enthusiastic services called the "radenia"), in the village of Nikitino. It is unknown what happened to Lukian Sokoloff. (Part 3, Pages 295-296)

And Makcim (Rudometkin) reigned over the "People of God" (Khlysty). On the street of the village of Nikitino, during a ceremony under the open sky, he put on a royal crown, along with a robe of royal purple, and he leaped and danced in the manner of King David, playing music on the stringed organ, and, placing himself as Christ, he (Rudometkin) took upon himself the rank of High Priest and Prophet above all prophets. ( Part 3, Page 291)

…and among the sectarians at Mt. Ararat, the Khlysty began to blend and mix together with the Molokans, both rejecting and renouncing the (Russian Orthodox) Church and all of its ceremonies and rituals. From this mixture of Khlysty blended with Molokans, arose, first in the Caucasus, and then in other places in Southern Russia, the sect known as "Visionaries" or "Jumpers" ….and from among the Visionaries appeared a king, prophet and high priest. This king Makcim (Rudometkin) received unlimited authority and domination over the Jumpers, and for the most part, contributed to the blending of the doctrines of the Khlysty with the teachings and practices of the Molokans. It is generally known that he is responsible for changing the old teachings of the Khlysty and for dictating new laws, including the practice of taking a "spiritual wife". (Part 3, Page 226)

And what about "spiritual wives" among the sectarians living at Mt. Ararat ? This also Makcim (Rudometkin) instituted. Now he has two wives, and others there (among his followers) have three and even more (spiritual wives) …they (his followers) say there (at Mt. Ararat) that "we are the 'People of God' (Khlysty), led by the spirit, we are 'New Israel', and we conduct ourselves as it was with Israel (Jacob) who had two wives, who were related between themselves as sisters (Leah and Rachel), and, besides that, he (Jacob) had two maidservants (Zilpah and Bilhah), and from all of these four (women) come forth (Genesis 29:14 – Genesis 30:24), equally blessed, the offspring (12 tribes) of Israel (Jacob)". (Part 3, Page 297)

In his book entitled Russian Noncomformity (Page 110), the Russian historian Serge Bolshakoff, writes that in addition to "preserving their own Khlysty features", the new Jumper sect adopted the mystical Khlysty ritual of "sacred dancing and prophesying", and they changed the Khlysty office of "christ", renaming him "czar/king" (as in "Czar Dooghov/King of Spirits").

.

August 10, 2010

An interesting mystical Illuminati society "The New Israel"[/b] (or "The People of God") was founded in 1785 by a Polish nobleman Tadeusz (Thaddeus) Leszczyc-Grabianka (1740-1807) at Avignon and moved in the early 19th century to St. Petersburg.

The notion of a "New Israel" or "people of God" all have their roots in mysticism

Molokans are actually Grabiankins.

August 10, 2010

An interesting mystical Illuminati society "The New Israel"[/b] (or "The People of God") was founded in 1785 by a Polish nobleman Tadeusz (Thaddeus) Leszczyc-Grabianka (1740-1807) at Avignon and moved in the early 19th century to St. Petersburg.

The notion of a "New Israel" or "people of God" all have their roots in mysticism

Molokans are actually Grabiankins.

Since "The New Israel" was founded by Tadeusz Leszczyc-Grabianka in 1785, that would actually make Molokans, Grabiankans not Grabiankins, and certainly not Maximisti. It all works out to be the same doesn't it? Talk Christ walk Khlyst. People who don't have Christ need religion to fill that empty spot.

August 12, 2010

Several posts and not one shred of explicit evidence.

Ok, there are similarities from one group to the next. If that is iron clad then Jesus is Horus. Given a number of similarities, Christianity is just a melding of the Egyptian pagan and Jewish religion. Google it, you will find plenty of discussion on this. Ignore or dismiss it, then its obvious one can conclude your faith is weak. That is exactly how pitiful your arguments are.

Next the authors mentioned are questionable at best. Just within your own quotes you proved that they often confused one group to another and many did state they were not first hand observers but were often relying on sources that were secondary at best. That's one of the main problems of the whole Sectarian movement in Russia, accuracy was not of importance in record keeping, but rather to dissuade others from converting, convert others back to Orthodoxy or in the extreme case, cut the "cancer" out and hope they collapse from within, which they often did. Thus no express statement can be made on many groups, let alone any of their leaders.

Oh and inserting "Khlysty" in parenthesis to make your implication despite the original text not doing so, bemoans a person who is un-respectable and should be expelled as any academic. Its clear cut obvious, you had conclusion and decided to find anything that fit that conclusion and ignore any contradicting evidence. Going so far to even tamper with the actual statement. You would have done well in the era of the Catholic Church demanding Copernicus to "recant" his study discovering that the earth revolved around the sun.

Finally, nice attempt to immediately undercut me by stating I haven't done my homework. I can certainly state I have done my research and from the look of things, it is far more than you have ever done. By immediately stating someone has not done any proper research because there findings contradict your own, you set yourself up for an easy way out, by ignoring the obvious. Such as refusing to believe the sky is blue and when told to look up, you close your eyes. Next, by attempting to belittle, you try to draw attention away from your own shortcomings on the subject. When a person resorts to these tactics, its obvious (well, at least to the intelligent) they have lost the debate. I accept your less than honorable admission of defeat.

coffee · August 12, 2010

.

Regarding:

Oh and inserting "Khlysty" in parenthesis to make your implication despite the original text not doing so, bemoans a person who is un-respectable and should be expelled as any academic.

To clarify, when Mel'nikov uses the term "God's People" he is referring specifically to the Khlysty. This is clear when he states:

God's People, or the Khlysty, as they are usually called among the people, believe that it is possible, in a direct, immediate connection, to always communicate the human soul with divinity. Being similar to the Dukhabors, they preach that the physical incarnation of Christ permanently and perpetually dwells on earth. This sect cannot even be considered as a denomination that is part of the Christian heresy.

(Part 3, Page 225)

Therefore, to insert in parenthesis (the Khlysty) is simply a restatement of the obvious, and keeps the readers informed about the true context intended by the author whenever the term "People of God" or "God's People" is used.

Regarding:

Next the authors mentioned are questionable at best.

That's one of the main problems of the whole Sectarian movement in Russia, accuracy was not of importance in record keeping, but rather to dissuade others from converting, convert others back to Orthodoxy or in the extreme case, cut the "cancer" out and hope they collapse from within, which they often did.

The excuse that the "authors mentioned are questionable at best" is simply that, an excuse which is not substantiated with any concrete documentation other than the fact that the Rudometkinites do not like the evidence that has been presented, and wish that it would just "go away".

Likewise with their theory that purportedly "accuracy was not of importance" among the historians, as well as their attempt to hypothesize that the reason those truths which the Rudometkinites object to were written, is supposedly because the historians were trying to "convert others back to Orthodoxy".

Both theories are excuses that are made by the Rudometkinites without any evidence other than their own prejudicial assumptions. The only difference in this instance is that the word "probably" was only implied, instead of stating it outright.

Regarding:

Several posts and not one shred of explicit evidence.

That is exactly how pitiful your arguments are.

I can certainly state I have done my research and from the look of things, it is far more than you have ever done.

When a person resorts to these tactics, its obvious (well, at least to the intelligent) they have lost the debate. I accept your less than honorable admission of defeat.

Once again, the depth of the chasm between the Rudometkinites and the Bible based followers of the Lord Jesus Christ cannot be denied. I for one am glad to see the responses like the one above from the Rudometkinites made public.

In my experience, when speaking with those "Molokans" who are now working in the fields of the Lord in other non-Molokan Christian churches, I find that this very "attitude" of the Rudometkinites has contributed most to the exodus away from our "Molokan" churches, and has more to do with the decline of our present day "Molokan" community than anything else.

.

August 12, 2010

Several posts and not one shred of explicit evidence.

If Rudometkin was not a Khlyst then how did these Khlyst beliefs get in his book?

Khlysti believe, The priests of the Church had missed the true road to God which only the prophets of the secret brotherhood preached. The Church doctrine, which was earthly and lacking in inspiration, clung only to the letter of the law, while the Khlysty teachings were inspired by God. The man, who through grace, was in direct communication with the Holy Spirit no longer needed the laws and ritual forms that the Church devised hinder human reason…….. Spirit and Life page 500 verse 8, That is why there is no need to retain any of the Jewish and heathen rituals of ceremony nor their written daily orders and holidays……. Therefore, this new church of mine is sanctified and called in the Spirit, "The Holy Zion of God of Israel" Here presently there is no need for us to have appointed ceremonial and ornamented days or holidays of whatever sort--Hebrew or gentile.…… Spirit and Life page 432 verse 6, “And for this reason, I do not hold to any carnal holidays.

Khlysti believe, This was the example set forth by Danbila Filipich who before becoming enlightened was a serious student of the Scriptures and other religious writings; but afterwards discarded all of these works and became a seeker of the truth in the "golden book of life."….. Spirit and life page 474 verses 1, 2 and 8, "I (Rudometkin) am the Book of the Sun. I am the memory of God Almighty! I (Rudometkin) am life eternal! In the nineteenth century I descended personally to you from the heavens onto the earth. Now all who desire come, take of My (Rudometkin's) water freely, for My water is a true beverage, and he who drinks will be filled with wisdom and life immortal"…….

Spirit and Life page 508 verses 2 and 3, Except for only me alone, your leader, by the revelation of My God, I came to know these (new words) clearly, in the spirit, in my nightly visions, as if looking at my own face in a mirror. That is why I wish to personally reveal all of this to you, the new Israel, in these detailed lines, and show all of you the true new path of the King My God, and the eternal procession upon it.

Khlysti believe, One of the basic Khlysty teachings was of the ever-renewing reincarnation of God, or the Lord, in man. This reincarnation of God in man is only achieved by the total self-denial and submission to the will of the Holy Spirit…….Spirit and Life page 607 verse 4, And verily, I well know that with this new name of mine I shall never die. I shall only be renewed manifestly in this body of mine every hundred years.

Same page and verse translated from the Russian text...…And truly, I myself know very well, that with this new name of mine, I will forever, never die, but only every one hundred years in this very flesh of mine, I will be changed in visible appearance.

Khlysti believe, Once the person has underwent this mystical transformation he shares in the divine abilities to heal, prophesy, raise the dead, rescue souls from hell and lead them to heaven. Also on the day of the Last Judgment he can deliver out rewards and punishments……. Spirit and Life page 417 verse 14, the forgiveness of all sins through me. (Rudometkin)

Khlysti believe, This man was thought to be God and man together, a new Christ....... Spirit & Life Bk. 4 Art. 1 Ver. 13….And this is why I, Maxim, personally became a true son of God eternally in His Spirit, and a new heir of all the world, or the progenitor of all the new Israel Maxim Rudometkin -

Khlysti believe, However, other forms of love were permitted by the Khlysty. Participants were allowed to sleep with partners in "spiritual marriages" but no carnal relationships were to occur between them. …...Spirit and Life page 591 declaration 1, Now I must also gather a second time seven new wives who are to be chosen from virgin girls; who already forever will not know another husband besides me.

Khlysti believe, Like the Khlysty sectarians who held their teachings came directly from God and were not known by the common Orthodox Russians, the Gnostics believed that Jesus shared secret teachings with them which He did not tell the ordinary members of the Christian faith. …...Spirit and Life page 297 verse 6, And this surprised me at the time and awesomly struck me with a flaming love towards all of my people, the Molokan generation. For they alone are the true worshippers of the Father in the Spirit, and by faith in Jesus Christ are the eternal heirs to the promise of God upon this good land for a thousand years. And there are none besides them,…….Spirit and Life page 535 verse 3, I think, that this new teaching of mine will not be made known to our sinistral Molokans.

stevepiv · August 12, 2010

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize.

Sounds A LOT like the Khlysty "New Israel" Molokans of today.

August 12, 2010

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize.

Sounds A LOT like the Khlysty "New Israel" Molokans of today.

Molokan math......... Christ + Khlyst = Khlyst

August 12, 2010

To clarify, when Mel'nikov uses the term "God's People" he is referring specifically to the Khlysty. This is clear when he states:

God's People, or the Khlysty, as they are usually called among the people, believe that it is possible, in a direct, immediate connection, to always communicate the human soul with divinity. Being similar to the Dukhabors, they preach that the physical incarnation of Christ permanently and perpetually dwells on earth. This sect cannot even be considered as a denomination that is part of the Christian heresy.

(Part 3, Page 225)

Therefore, to insert in parenthesis (the Khlysty) is simply a restatement of the obvious, and keeps the readers informed about the true context intended by the author whenever the term "People of God" or "God's People" is used.

Irregardless, it is still tampering. If you felt it important, you should have included it in earnest. The fact you did not and still tampered proves that you are attempting to force your conclusion. Next, when did Melnikov actually visit and observe the Khlysty? Where does he state his first hand account observations? Or did he interview one or more Khlysty? Where is the transcript?

The excuse that the "authors mentioned are questionable at best" is simply that, an excuse which is not substantiated with any concrete documentation other than the fact that the Rudometkinites do not like the evidence that has been presented, and wish that it would just "go away".

Likewise with their theory that purportedly "accuracy was not of importance" among the historians, as well as their attempt to hypothesize that the reason those truths which the Rudometkinites object to were written, is supposedly because the historians were trying to "convert others back to Orthodoxy".

Both theories are excuses that are made by the Rudometkinites without any evidence other than their own prejudicial assumptions. The only difference in this instance is that the word "probably" was only implied, instead of stating it outright.

Excuse? Hardly, but valid criticism. See the statement above, show where Melnikov did first hand research, interviews, etc. on the Khlysty and while your at it, do the same for Molokans as well as Dukabors. Also, have you evaluated if Melnikov's other claims on other sects were correct? A sloppy job in research is usually shown through out. Also, why do you label Molokan's Rudometkinites? Do you hold a Doctorate in Sociology and can publish with verifiable information for creating another sub-group of Molokans? Or is that just your feeble attempt at defamation?

Once again, the depth of the chasm between the Rudometkinites and the Bible based followers of the Lord Jesus Christ cannot be denied. I for one am glad to see the responses like the one above from the Rudometkinites made public.

In my experience, when speaking with those "Molokans" who are now working in the fields of the Lord in other non-Molokan Christian churches, I find that this very "attitude" of the Rudometkinites has contributed most to the exodus away from our "Molokan" churches, and has more to do with the decline of our present day "Molokan" community than anything else.

So this is your attempt to dismiss me? Label me and then ignore? Despite knowing nothing about me. You are obviously no researcher and have no qualifications. So you are also setting up for your way out to save what? Pride? Face?

August 12, 2010

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize.

Sounds A LOT like the Khlysty "New Israel" Molokans of today.

You are also misleading. The Priguni or New Israel if you prefer, do not have such restrictions, at least in Russia. Those in America have taken the position against evangelizing in order not to attract attention for reasons too numerous. You are making wild statements that level on with gossip.

August 12, 2010

Molokan math......... Christ + Khlyst = Khlyst

Sorry that should have read Bible math

coffee · August 13, 2010

.

Regarding:

Several posts and not one shred of explicit evidence.

Ok, there are similarities from one group to the next. If that is iron clad then Jesus is Horus. Given a number of similarities, Christianity is just a melding of the Egyptian pagan and Jewish religion. Google it, you will find plenty of discussion on this. Ignore or dismiss it, then its obvious one can conclude your faith is weak. That is exactly how pitiful your arguments are.

Next the authors mentioned are questionable at best. Just within your own quotes you proved that they often confused one group to another and many did state they were not first hand observers but were often relying on sources that were secondary at best. That's one of the main problems of the whole Sectarian movement in Russia, accuracy was not of importance in record keeping, but rather to dissuade others from converting, convert others back to Orthodoxy or in the extreme case, cut the "cancer" out and hope they collapse from within, which they often did. Thus no express statement can be made on many groups, let alone any of their leaders.

I can certainly state I have done my research and from the look of things, it is far more than you have ever done.

In the personal library of any good Rudometkinite can be found the book written by J. K. Berokoff entitled Molokans in America. The author does not hide the fact, nor does he apologize that he is biased, and that he wrote the book with his mind already made up with conclusion, a good majority of which was admittedly based on the fact that he was not a first hand observer, but that he was relying instead on secondary sources.

Included in the book are a number of the unsubstantiated myths and fables, as well as over-embellished folklore and oral traditions, which conveniently fit the conclusion that the author had already made before he even began writing the book, while at the same time ignoring any historical evidence to the contrary.

To conclude that Berokoff's version of so-called "history" is to be considered "iron clad", is nonsense. The same applies to the book written by William Prohoroff III, entitled Maxcim Gavrilovich Rudometkin, "King Of Spirits", as well as the book written by Alex F. Wren, entitled True Believers, Prisoners For Conscience, both which should also be found in the library of any good Rudometkinite.

Like Berokoff, both Prohoroff and Wren are admittedly biased, loyal and faithful followers of Rudometkin and his writings in the Spirit and Life book, who wrote their books with conclusion already made ahead of time, with intentional disregard of any "contradicting evidence".

The Rudometkinites are notorious for whimpering and sniveling about the credibility of those historical sources which reveal the ugly truth about Rudometkin's Khlysty heritage, and attempt to discredit the reliability of these historians with excuses like those posted above, yet they conveniently overlook the fact that their author of choice in this case, who has written a version of alleged "history" that the Rudometkinites choose to believe, is guilty of the same accusations which the Rudometkinites make against Mel'nikov and Ding'lshtedt, as well as others who wrote about Rudometkin and his involvement and participation with the mystical Khlysty, all of which is well documented in a number of sources that write about the history of religious sectarianism in Russia.

Ultimately, the criteria of the Rudometkinites is this:

Any historical information which exposes Rudometkin in any way negative, is unreliable, and those historians who wrote about Rudometkin in a manner that is not favorable, are not credible, were not concerned about accuracy, and were only attempting to convert the Protestant sectarians back to Orthodoxy, etc., etc. On the other hand, any available historical information which presents Rudometkin in a positive way, can be trusted as reliable and credible.

Probably the silliest of all excuses made by the Rudometkinites is the following:

That's one of the main problems of the whole Sectarian movement in Russia, accuracy was not of importance in record keeping, but rather to dissuade others from converting, convert others back to Orthodoxy or in the extreme case, cut the "cancer" out and hope they collapse from within, which they often did. Thus no express statement can be made on many groups, let alone any of their leaders.

This presupposes that the sectarians were going to actually read what the historians had written. In other words, the Rudometkinites want others to believe that these peasant sectarians, the majority of whom were uneducated and illiterate, were purportedly going to read what the historians had written, and as it pertains to Rudometkin, by reading that his mystical belief system and religious practices were a byproduct of his Khlysty heritage, by reading this, if the peasant sectarians could even read in the first place, those sectarians who were already Rudometkinites, were supposedly going to suddenly stop being followers of Rudometkin, and convert back to Orthodoxy.

With all due respect, taking into consideration the adamant boast that "I have done my research", this unsubstantiated hypothesis is an opinion based on personal bias and assumption, and can hardly be considered conclusive, intelligent deduction.

.

August 13, 2010

Several posts and not one shred of explicit evidence.
If Rudometkin was not a Khlyst then how did these Khlyst beliefs get in his book?

Why won't you answer this question?

stevepiv · August 13, 2010

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize.

Sounds A LOT like the Khlysty "New Israel" Molokans of today.

You are also misleading. The Priguni or New Israel if you prefer, do not have such restrictions, at least in Russia. Those in America have taken the position against evangelizing in order not to attract attention for reasons too numerous. You are making wild statements that level on with gossip.

Yeah, Priguni New Israel Molokanism is found in Scripture---> disobey God's Command to keep your traditions....

Mark 7:6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘ This people honors Me with their lips,

But their heart is far from Me.

7 And in vain they worship Me,

Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” 9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

Ds. Andy Berokoff gave 6 reasons Molokans in America do not evangelize:

Take from his writings Some Religious Ideas pg. 38-39

" To Evangelize in this country would have been almost impossible because, in the first place, Molokans were already predisposed for at least seventy years in Armenia not to evangelize. When they moved from the Tambov region of interior Russia to the unfriendly and underdeveloped region in the Transcaucasus, they had to begin a new life in a harsh environment. Except for a few leaders, they could hardly put their minds on evangelizing. Moreover, as significant as it was then and is now, Molokans did not want a strong central or local group to promote systematic evangelization. Second, after having arrived in America, Molokans also did not want to change neither their religious style of worship, nor their dress, nor their holidays, nor their language. Third, Molokans were considered odd and they felt the chill from established residents; and some people mocked them. Fourth, Molokans were poor, worldly ignorant peasants who were at the bottom class of society; therefore no one would have want to integrate with Molokans. Fifth, Molokans, even if they wanted, had no time for evangelizing because they were daily working up to ten or more hours for a six day week. Sixth, from the very beginning, Molokans had a bad experience with America where they learned that they could not compete legally, socially and religiously."

Then, later on page 39, Ds. Andy's conscience is being convicted and makes this statement:

"The negative to this is that we cannot share with others what our early evangelizing predkee considered important-our basic beliefs. This absence of work on our part to better the world and to bring salvation to other ought to cause us to be humble rather than giving us self-satisfaction for what amounts to failure. That is to say, if we Molokans must stay in our shells for reasons of self-preservation, we should not think ourselves being better for it. Perhaps, this bit of wisdom found written in the "Readers Digest" has enough credibility to give us pause. It said, " The difference between the Sea of Galilee and the Dead Sea is that the former is live and fresh because its waters enter from the north and exit from the south, whereas the latter, which is briny and dead, has waters only entering and never exiting." Let us hope that God will not judge us as "briny and dead" because we do not offer to other what came to us by means of various unknown people, Scripture and the Holy Spirit."

August 13, 2010

" To Evangelize in this country would have been almost impossible because, in the first place, Molokans were already predisposed for at least seventy years in Armenia not to evangelize. When they moved from the Tambov region of interior Russia to the unfriendly and underdeveloped region in the Transcaucasus, they had to begin a new life in a harsh environment. Except for a few leaders, they could hardly put their minds on evangelizing. Moreover, as significant as it was then and is now, Molokans did not want a strong central or local group to promote systematic evangelization. Second, after having arrived in America, Molokans also did not want to change neither their religious style of worship, nor their dress, nor their holidays, nor their language. Third, Molokans were considered odd and they felt the chill from established residents; and some people mocked them. Fourth, Molokans were poor, worldly ignorant peasants who were at the bottom class of society; therefore no one would have want to integrate with Molokans. Fifth, Molokans, even if they wanted, had no time for evangelizing because they were daily working up to ten or more hours for a six day week. Sixth, from the very beginning, Molokans had a bad experience with America where they learned that they could not compete legally, socially and religiously."

Again you're being lied to by the church elders, you will find in the introduction of the S&L this statement; Labors in spiritual enlightenment broadcast by then BY THE WILL OF GOD UNTO ALL MANKIND. Berokoff's argument for not evangelizing is pure spiritual pork and is an abomination to our Lord! To evangelize is easier now than it was in Christs time, would God send messengers during difficult times, YOU BET! Berokoff is selling a crock.

A Berokoff talks Christ then walks Khlyst.

stevepiv · August 13, 2010

" To Evangelize in this country would have been almost impossible because, in the first place, Molokans were already predisposed for at least seventy years in Armenia not to evangelize. When they moved from the Tambov region of interior Russia to the unfriendly and underdeveloped region in the Transcaucasus, they had to begin a new life in a harsh environment. Except for a few leaders, they could hardly put their minds on evangelizing. Moreover, as significant as it was then and is now, Molokans did not want a strong central or local group to promote systematic evangelization. Second, after having arrived in America, Molokans also did not want to change neither their religious style of worship, nor their dress, nor their holidays, nor their language. Third, Molokans were considered odd and they felt the chill from established residents; and some people mocked them. Fourth, Molokans were poor, worldly ignorant peasants who were at the bottom class of society; therefore no one would have want to integrate with Molokans. Fifth, Molokans, even if they wanted, had no time for evangelizing because they were daily working up to ten or more hours for a six day week. Sixth, from the very beginning, Molokans had a bad experience with America where they learned that they could not compete legally, socially and religiously."
Again you're being lied to by the church elders, you will find in the introduction of the S&L this statement; Labors in spiritual enlightenment broadcast by then BY THE WILL OF GOD UNTO ALL MANKIND. Berokoff's argument for not evangelizing is pure spiritual pork and is an abomination to our Lord! To evangelize is easier now than it was in Christs time, would God send messengers during difficult times, YOU BET! Berokoff is selling a crock.

A Berokoff talks Christ then walks Khlyst.

Guest,

I agree with you. These elders are NOT my elders.

August 13, 2010

" To Evangelize in this country would have been almost impossible because, in the first place, Molokans were already predisposed for at least seventy years in Armenia not to evangelize. When they moved from the Tambov region of interior Russia to the unfriendly and underdeveloped region in the Transcaucasus, they had to begin a new life in a harsh environment. Except for a few leaders, they could hardly put their minds on evangelizing. Moreover, as significant as it was then and is now, Molokans did not want a strong central or local group to promote systematic evangelization. Second, after having arrived in America, Molokans also did not want to change neither their religious style of worship, nor their dress, nor their holidays, nor their language. Third, Molokans were considered odd and they felt the chill from established residents; and some people mocked them. Fourth, Molokans were poor, worldly ignorant peasants who were at the bottom class of society; therefore no one would have want to integrate with Molokans. Fifth, Molokans, even if they wanted, had no time for evangelizing because they were daily working up to ten or more hours for a six day week. Sixth, from the very beginning, Molokans had a bad experience with America where they learned that they could not compete legally, socially and religiously."
Again you're being lied to by the church elders, you will find in the introduction of the S&L this statement; Labors in spiritual enlightenment broadcast by then BY THE WILL OF GOD UNTO ALL MANKIND. Berokoff's argument for not evangelizing is pure spiritual pork and is an abomination to our Lord! To evangelize is easier now than it was in Christs time, would God send messengers during difficult times, YOU BET! Berokoff is selling a crock.

A Berokoff talks Christ then walks Khlyst.

Guest,

I agree with you. These elders are NOT my elders.

Steve I didn't know you left your molokan church

August 13, 2010

Several posts and not one shred of explicit evidence.
If Rudometkin was not a Khlyst then how did these Khlyst beliefs get in his book?
Khlysti believe, The priests of the Church had missed the true road to God which only the prophets of the secret brotherhood preached. The Church doctrine, which was earthly and lacking in inspiration, clung only to the letter of the law, while the Khlysty teachings were inspired by God. The man, who through grace, was in direct communication with the Holy Spirit no longer needed the laws and ritual forms that the Church devised hinder human reason…….. Spirit and Life page 500 verse 8, That is why there is no need to retain any of the Jewish and heathen rituals of ceremony nor their written daily orders and holidays……. Therefore, this new church of mine is sanctified and called in the Spirit, "The Holy Zion of God of Israel" Here presently there is no need for us to have appointed ceremonial and ornamented days or holidays of whatever sort--Hebrew or gentile.…… Spirit and Life page 432 verse 6, “And for this reason, I do not hold to any carnal holidays.

Khlysti believe, This was the example set forth by Danbila Filipich who before becoming enlightened was a serious student of the Scriptures and other religious writings; but afterwards discarded all of these works and became a seeker of the truth in the "golden book of life."….. Spirit and life page 474 verses 1, 2 and 8, "I (Rudometkin) am the Book of the Sun. I am the memory of God Almighty! I (Rudometkin) am life eternal! In the nineteenth century I descended personally to you from the heavens onto the earth. Now all who desire come, take of My (Rudometkin's) water freely, for My water is a true beverage, and he who drinks will be filled with wisdom and life immortal"…….

Spirit and Life page 508 verses 2 and 3, Except for only me alone, your leader, by the revelation of My God, I came to know these (new words) clearly, in the spirit, in my nightly visions, as if looking at my own face in a mirror. That is why I wish to personally reveal all of this to you, the new Israel, in these detailed lines, and show all of you the true new path of the King My God, and the eternal procession upon it.

Khlysti believe, One of the basic Khlysty teachings was of the ever-renewing reincarnation of God, or the Lord, in man. This reincarnation of God in man is only achieved by the total self-denial and submission to the will of the Holy Spirit…….Spirit and Life page 607 verse 4, And verily, I well know that with this new name of mine I shall never die. I shall only be renewed manifestly in this body of mine every hundred years.

Same page and verse translated from the Russian text...…And truly, I myself know very well, that with this new name of mine, I will forever, never die, but only every one hundred years in this very flesh of mine, I will be changed in visible appearance.

Khlysti believe, Once the person has underwent this mystical transformation he shares in the divine abilities to heal, prophesy, raise the dead, rescue souls from hell and lead them to heaven. Also on the day of the Last Judgment he can deliver out rewards and punishments……. Spirit and Life page 417 verse 14, the forgiveness of all sins through me. (Rudometkin)

Khlysti believe, This man was thought to be God and man together, a new Christ....... Spirit & Life Bk. 4 Art. 1 Ver. 13….And this is why I, Maxim, personally became a true son of God eternally in His Spirit, and a new heir of all the world, or the progenitor of all the new Israel Maxim Rudometkin -

Khlysti believe, However, other forms of love were permitted by the Khlysty. Participants were allowed to sleep with partners in "spiritual marriages" but no carnal relationships were to occur between them. …...Spirit and Life page 591 declaration 1, Now I must also gather a second time seven new wives who are to be chosen from virgin girls; who already forever will not know another husband besides me.

Khlysti believe, Like the Khlysty sectarians who held their teachings came directly from God and were not known by the common Orthodox Russians, the Gnostics believed that Jesus shared secret teachings with them which He did not tell the ordinary members of the Christian faith. …...Spirit and Life page 297 verse 6, And this surprised me at the time and awesomly struck me with a flaming love towards all of my people, the Molokan generation. For they alone are the true worshippers of the Father in the Spirit, and by faith in Jesus Christ are the eternal heirs to the promise of God upon this good land for a thousand years. And there are none besides them,…….Spirit and Life page 535 verse 3, I think, that this new teaching of mine will not be made known to our sinistral Molokans.

I have seen the physical evidence that MGR grew up in Nikitino

You guys need to stick to being saved by Jesus.

If you are against the S&L and MGR and Molokans, leave it alone!

Oh wait - then you would have nothing to talk about!

August 14, 2010

Using Gods name in a lie/vain. "For the Lord will NOT hold him guiltless." (KJV). Mr A. Berokoff has that changed?

August 14, 2010

.

Regarding:

Several posts and not one shred of explicit evidence.

Ok, there are similarities from one group to the next. If that is iron clad then Jesus is Horus. Given a number of similarities, Christianity is just a melding of the Egyptian pagan and Jewish religion. Google it, you will find plenty of discussion on this. Ignore or dismiss it, then its obvious one can conclude your faith is weak. That is exactly how pitiful your arguments are.

Next the authors mentioned are questionable at best. Just within your own quotes you proved that they often confused one group to another and many did state they were not first hand observers but were often relying on sources that were secondary at best. That's one of the main problems of the whole Sectarian movement in Russia, accuracy was not of importance in record keeping, but rather to dissuade others from converting, convert others back to Orthodoxy or in the extreme case, cut the "cancer" out and hope they collapse from within, which they often did. Thus no express statement can be made on many groups, let alone any of their leaders.

I can certainly state I have done my research and from the look of things, it is far more than you have ever done.

In the personal library of any good Rudometkinite can be found the book written by J. K. Berokoff entitled Molokans in America. The author does not hide the fact, nor does he apologize that he is biased, and that he wrote the book with his mind already made up with conclusion, a good majority of which was admittedly based on the fact that he was not a first hand observer, but that he was relying instead on secondary sources.

Included in the book are a number of the unsubstantiated myths and fables, as well as over-embellished folklore and oral traditions, which conveniently fit the conclusion that the author had already made before he even began writing the book, while at the same time ignoring any historical evidence to the contrary.

To conclude that Berokoff's version of so-called "history" is to be considered "iron clad", is nonsense. The same applies to the book written by William Prohoroff III, entitled Maxcim Gavrilovich Rudometkin, "King Of Spirits", as well as the book written by Alex F. Wren, entitled True Believers, Prisoners For Conscience, both which should also be found in the library of any good Rudometkinite.

Like Berokoff, both Prohoroff and Wren are admittedly biased, loyal and faithful followers of Rudometkin and his writings in the Spirit and Life book, who wrote their books with conclusion already made ahead of time, with intentional disregard of any "contradicting evidence".

The Rudometkinites are notorious for whimpering and sniveling about the credibility of those historical sources which reveal the ugly truth about Rudometkin's Khlysty heritage, and attempt to discredit the reliability of these historians with excuses like those posted above, yet they conveniently overlook the fact that their author of choice in this case, who has written a version of alleged "history" that the Rudometkinites choose to believe, is guilty of the same accusations which the Rudometkinites make against Mel'nikov and Ding'lshtedt, as well as others who wrote about Rudometkin and his involvement and participation with the mystical Khlysty, all of which is well documented in a number of sources that write about the history of religious sectarianism in Russia.

Ultimately, the criteria of the Rudometkinites is this:

Any historical information which exposes Rudometkin in any way negative, is unreliable, and those historians who wrote about Rudometkin in a manner that is not favorable, are not credible, were not concerned about accuracy, and were only attempting to convert the Protestant sectarians back to Orthodoxy, etc., etc. On the other hand, any available historical information which presents Rudometkin in a positive way, can be trusted as reliable and credible.

Probably the silliest of all excuses made by the Rudometkinites is the following:

That's one of the main problems of the whole Sectarian movement in Russia, accuracy was not of importance in record keeping, but rather to dissuade others from converting, convert others back to Orthodoxy or in the extreme case, cut the "cancer" out and hope they collapse from within, which they often did. Thus no express statement can be made on many groups, let alone any of their leaders.

This presupposes that the sectarians were going to actually read what the historians had written. In other words, the Rudometkinites want others to believe that these peasant sectarians, the majority of whom were uneducated and illiterate, were purportedly going to read what the historians had written, and as it pertains to Rudometkin, by reading that his mystical belief system and religious practices were a byproduct of his Khlysty heritage, by reading this, if the peasant sectarians could even read in the first place, those sectarians who were already Rudometkinites, were supposedly going to suddenly stop being followers of Rudometkin, and convert back to Orthodoxy.

With all due respect, taking into consideration the adamant boast that "I have done my research", this unsubstantiated hypothesis is an opinion based on personal bias and assumption, and can hardly be considered conclusive, intelligent deduction.

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You really need to learn to be more concise, wordy written material is often a clue that the person did not fully research or is intentionally trying to confuse the reader.

So Molokan's write their history on the positive and use any source that embellishes that genre? With risk of sounding sarcastic, "I'm shocked! Shocked! I tell you!" How many social groups, cultures or even nations write their history completely objective? On the other hand, how many those who become "persona non grata" from their previous disposition also write objective? And I'm going to guess that you are "persona non grata" from Molokan's. It also appears a number of others here also fit that category. Vindictiveness is a disease that has an unsatisfiable hunger.

However, your excuse for using material that is highly questionable basically amounts to "They do it, therefore so can I" is highly pitiful.

Once again, where does Melnikov or any other for that matter document their visits and observations? Where do they mention interviewing a Khlysty? Where is the documented proof of the Russian mystic Rudometkin being identified with the Khlyst? When did they interview him? There was plenty of time to do so as he was locked up for a number of years, even if he was uncooperative any historian would have noted and documented that in order to cover a primary duty.

Furthermore, Was Melnikov a historian? Did you verify if any of the writers about Khlysty were indeed qualified? Have you ever divulged that information? Have you ever divulged that your sources were less than exemplary?

The above two paragraphs are all valid questions you continue to ignore and disproves your opinions and conjectures. Answer them and provide verifiable documentation then we can talk further, otherwise I'm done. But I'm fairly certain you won't, because both you and I know you are a fraud. The Khlysty are by far one of the more fascinating sect's of Russia and a number of qualified individuals continue to run into road blocks in uncovering the facts about their religion. If there was any factual connection between Khlyst and Molokan's it would have been pounced on. But the reality is, there is little factual information on Khlysty and Molokans. Perhaps why Dr. Breyfogle chose to further (and publish) his studies on the Dukhbors, that and too much "white noise" from individuals like you. And yet you fancy yourself more qualified with, as it appears, no formal research training. You may now commence your "wiggle" to save face with your comrades.

August 14, 2010

Several posts and not one shred of explicit evidence.
If Rudometkin was not a Khlyst then how did these Khlyst beliefs get in his book?

Why won't you answer this question?

Sub-intellectual comments should not be dignified with a response. That logic lines up with:

A. Why are so many Egyptian pagan teaching found in Christianity?

B. Why are so many Buddhist teachings are found in Christianity? (And yes, Buddha predates Christ)

C. Why are so many Hindu teachings found in Christianity?

And I could go on for quite awhile. There similarities everywhere from one culture to the next, but that does not always mean they borrowed them and its delusional to assume so immediately.

seeking_truth_1 · August 14, 2010

What Hindu, pagan & Buddhist teachings are found in Biblical Christianity?

There isn't a single one

Now can the same be said of the cult of molokanism?

that would be a negative ghost rider... the pattern is full

Several posts and not one shred of explicit evidence.
If Rudometkin was not a Khlyst then how did these Khlyst beliefs get in his book?

Why won't you answer this question?

Sub-intellectual comments should not be dignified with a response. That logic lines up with:

A. Why are so many Egyptian pagan teaching found in Christianity?

B. Why are so many Buddhist teachings are found in Christianity? (And yes, Buddha predates Christ)

C. Why are so many Hindu teachings found in Christianity?

And I could go on for quite awhile. There similarities everywhere from one culture to the next, but that does not always mean they borrowed them and its delusional to assume so immediately.

coffee · August 14, 2010

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So this is your attempt to dismiss me? Label me and then ignore? Despite knowing nothing about me. You are obviously no researcher and have no qualifications. So you are also setting up for your way out to save what? Pride? Face?

First of all, for the umpteenth time already, it has always been my desire that the Rudometkinites would come out of the closet to share their belief system publicly, and demonstrate for the readers the mindset of this particular demographic of our "Molokan" community here in America.

It has NEVER been my intention to "dismiss" them, or to "ignore" them, and the reason is very simple.

Even if I wanted to, there is no way that I could ever recreate, or do justice to the intensity and zeal, the arrogant attitude of superiority, the angry, smart aleck mouth, and all of the other distinguishing characteristics that are part and parcel of the religious personality of the stereotypical Rudometkinite. I believe it is important for the readers to witness this very "attitude" of the Rudometkinites first hand.

Regarding:

....when did Melnikov actually visit and observe the Khlysty? Where does he state his first hand account observations? Or did he interview one or more Khlysty? Where is the transcript?

....show where Melnikov did first hand research, interviews, etc. on the Khlysty and while your at it, do the same for Molokans as well as Dukabors. Also, have you evaluated if Melnikov's other claims on other sects were correct? A sloppy job in research is usually shown through out. Also, why do you label Molokan's Rudometkinites? Do you hold a Doctorate in Sociology and can publish with verifiable information for creating another sub-group of Molokans? Or is that just your feeble attempt at defamation?

As we can see from the above comments, when the Rudometkinites are confronted with historical information which they do not like, they demand of the historians first hand account observations and transcripts of interviews, as if to prove that the historical account which they object to is somehow unreliable or from non credible sources.

As I mentioned in the previous post, the Rudometkinites consider as supposedly "iron clad" the version of so-called "history" that is presented in the book that was written by J. K. Berokoff, entitled Molokans in America.

It is only too obvious that the Rudometkinites have no objection to Berokoff's sloppy job in research, nor do they demand if any first hand account observations actually exist, nor do they produce for scrutiny any of the actual transcripts of interviews that Berokoff might have conducted, in order to write the conclusions that he had already made ahead of time, before even writing his book.

The same goes for W. W. Prohoroff and his book, as well as A. F. Wren and his book. The Rudometkinites conveniently avoid any demand to evaluate the so-called "historical" claims made by any of these men, in order to verify if they are indeed correct.

For that matter, the Spirit and Life book, written by I. G. Samarin, is revered by the Rudometkinites as a collection of sacred writings, specifically those of M. G. Rudometkin. In the beginning of this book, Samarin presents his version of what the Rudometkinites accept as purported "history". In fact, Samarin writes in context that he compiled the information, he edited it, and he supplied additional commentary to this beginning section, but one never hears from the Rudometkinites any demand for verification of "first hand account observations and transcripts of interviews".

Yet, the Rudometkinites place this very Spirit and Life book on the altars in their churches and have it displayed prominently in their homes as a testimony of their belief system, without ever evaluating whether or not Samarin's claims in the book are even accurate to begin with.

For the time being, let us put aside the inability of the Rudometkinites to produce from Samarin verification of any alleged first hand account observations or transcripts of interviews, for any of the so-called "historical" information that is published the Spirit and Life book.

How about having the Rudometkinites produce the very original handwritten manuscripts themselves, for others to investigate and compare, so that an accurate analysis can be made, in order to determine whether or not the context of what Samarin published, and what has been introduced into the churches to be part of the very worship of God, is indeed what Rudometkin truly intended.

Or, for that matter, why do the Rudometkinites not present these "originals" to prove that they even exist, in chronological order, exactly as they claim is written in the Spirit and Life book?

Why do we not hear from the Rudometkinites the same kind of demand for authentication of what is written in the Spirit and Life book, which they demand from those non-Molokan writers who have published historical information about Rudometkin and his Khlysty forefathers, such information which the Rudometkinites dislike and desire not to be made public?

Especially when it comes to defending the honor and reputation of their spiritual hero, this type of hypocrisy is standard operating procedure among the Rudometkinites.

Regarding:

Also, why do you label Molokan's Rudometkinites?

I have explained previously that when I first read the term "Rudometkinite", it was from one of the historical writers who had referred to the followers of Rudometkin in Russia as "Rudometkinites", instead of the term that is more commonly used among today's "Molokans", which is the term "Makcimisti". In context, I use the term "Rudometkinite" in reference to those individuals who accept and follow the writings of Rudometkin in the Spirit and Life book as being "holy scripture". It simply means "follower of Rudometkin", just like the term "Makcimist" means "follower of Makcim". I prefer to use the man's last name, as opposed to his first name.

As Rudometkin himself explains in his own writings, he does NOT refer to his followers as "Molokans". That honor he concedes to S. M. Uklein, as the one who first organized into a religious sect those peasants in Russia who came to be known as "Molokans". Rudometkin clearly identifies his followers as "New Israel", which like the term "People of God" or "God's People", is used by historians to identify the Khlysty.

In other words, Rudometkinites are NOT Molokans. The fact that today's Rudometkinites do not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ or in the foundational Biblical truth that God exists in Trinity, as has already been demonstrated, is clear evidence that they have no business referring to themselves as "Molokan".

I must say that I cannot remember when someone with such impressive credentials and qualifications to be an authentic "researcher" has ever joined in on the discussions here on this forum, but I truly hope this individual will stay and stick around to dialogue and share their views, exactly as they have done within the past couple of days.

I believe it is good for anyone who uses the nickname of "Molokan" to experience first hand how serious and severe the polarization is between those who are the stereotypical Rudometkinites, who are followers of the writings in the Spirit and Life book, versus those who are the Bible based followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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coffee · August 16, 2010

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Regarding:

You really need to learn to be more concise, wordy written material is often a clue that the person did not fully research or is intentionally trying to confuse the reader.

For now, it is probably best to humor this individual who obviously has strong opinions about a number of things, apparently including the amateur assumptions of a self made psychologist.

Regarding:

So Molokan's write their history on the positive and use any source that embellishes that genre? With risk of sounding sarcastic, "I'm shocked! Shocked! I tell you!" How many social groups, cultures or even nations write their history completely objective? On the other hand, how many those who become "persona non grata" from their previous disposition also write objective? And I'm going to guess that you are "persona non grata" from Molokan's. It also appears a number of others here also fit that category. Vindictiveness is a disease that has an unsatisfiable hunger.

However, your excuse for using material that is highly questionable basically amounts to "They do it, therefore so can I" is highly pitiful.

At times it is difficult if not impossible to keep the Rudometkinites focused on the issue being discussed, without having them vary off course and change the subject. Hopefully this will now get us back on track.

As it concerns the issue of the heresies that are written in the Spirit and Life book, the Rudometkinites are notorious for making the assumption that those "Molokans" who are addressing the issue of Rudometkin's Khlysty heritage so candidly, in public, are doing so purportedly out of "vindictiveness".

I do not know which excuse is sillier, this one, or the excuse that the historians wrote what they did about Rudometkin with the purpose of influencing the illiterate and uneducated peasants to convert back to Orthodoxy.

In truth, those individuals who are speaking so openly about the similarities between Rudometkin's false doctrines and strange teachings, and the religious teachings and practices that are recorded about the belief system of the historical Khlysty, love our ethnic heritage and are disturbed that historical information exists which confirms so much of what was written by Rudometkin in the Spirit and Life book, and verifies that what Rudometkin and his followers practiced in Russia resembled more the religious activities of the Khlysty, than that which is documented historically about our Bible based "Molokan" Christian forefathers.

The issue that is being presented is NOT the fact that those Rudometkinite writers who have published books with their own versions of so-called "history" have done so with premeditated "conclusion" ahead of time, or are guilty of "sloppy research", or lack documented "first hand account observations", or fail to produce any "transcripts" of purported interviews which they have supposedly conducted, or are biased in their presentation of alleged "facts" as it concerns the person of Rudometkin, and the myth that he and his followers were "Molokans", instead of Khlysty.

The issue is the hypocrisy of the Rudometkinites to demand authentication for those historical references which they do not like about their beloved hero, but do not require the same authentication from their own choice of writers, whether they be of "Molokan" heritage or not.

After all, this most recent explosion of dialog here on the forum was sparked by the dislike of the Rudometkinites to read that their spiritual hero received his mystical belief system from his Khlysty forefathers. In other words, the Rudometkinites want to consider themselves to be part of the "Molokan" community, and they object with obvious anger to any historical documentation that associates Rudometkin and his followers in any way with the Khlysty. They clamor and make lots of noise, wiggling and squiggling with all their might in their attempt to discredit this kind of historical information.

Regarding:

Once again, where does Melnikov or any other for that matter document their visits and observations? Where do they mention interviewing a Khlysty? Where is the documented proof of the Russian mystic Rudometkin being identified with the Khlyst? When did they interview him? There was plenty of time to do so as he was locked up for a number of years, even if he was uncooperative any historian would have noted and documented that in order to cover a primary duty.

Furthermore, Was Melnikov a historian? Did you verify if any of the writers about Khlysty were indeed qualified? Have you ever divulged that information? Have you ever divulged that your sources were less than exemplary?

The above two paragraphs are all valid questions you continue to ignore and disproves your opinions and conjectures. Answer them and provide verifiable documentation then we can talk further, otherwise I'm done. But I'm fairly certain you won't, because both you and I know you are a fraud. The Khlysty are by far one of the more fascinating sect's of Russia and a number of qualified individuals continue to run into road blocks in uncovering the facts about their religion. If there was any factual connection between Khlyst and Molokan's it would have been pounced on. But the reality is, there is little factual information on Khlysty and Molokans. Perhaps why Dr. Breyfogle chose to further (and publish) his studies on the Dukhbors, that and too much "white noise" from individuals like you. And yet you fancy yourself more qualified with, as it appears, no formal research training. You may now commence your "wiggle" to save face with your comrades.

I do not know if anyone else has ever noticed, but there never is any objection raised from the Rudometkinites whenever someone can find excerpts from any of the historians which are complimentary, or imply that Rudometkin and his followers were somehow part of the demographic of the historical "Molokans". One does not hear any demands for first hand account observations and interview transcripts in those instances.

Other than the fact that the Rudometkinites do not like that their hero has been linked historically to the Khlysty, is there evidence of any kind to even suggest that Mel'nikov was not a recognized historian of the Russian people? Mel'nikov is referred to as valid historical source by other Russian historians, namely Dingel'shtedt and Klibanov, as well as writers whose names might not be as familiar to our present generation of "Molokans".

Does this individual who has been making all of the recent noise here on the forum, boasting about qualifications and credentials, implying some kind of self proclaimed authority on the methods of gathering historical information, have any evidence to prove that Mel'nikov would possibly have had any ulterior motives, other than to accurately document historical truth, when he wrote what he did about Rudometkin and Rudometkin's Khlysty heritage?

After all, we have the testimony of Dingel'shtedt that Mel'nikov was a proponent of gathering his research face to face. Do the Rudometkinites or this vocal, recent participant here on the forum have any documentation from any of the other historians who wrote about Rudometkin, that Mel'nikov was not to be trusted for the things that he wrote, or that he was unreliable, or incompetent, or unqualified to record the historical information that he did about the Khlysty and the Molokans, as part of the history of religious sectarianism in Russia?

In the preface of the book that he wrote about Rudometkin and his "New Israel Jumpers and Leapers" followers, Dingel'htedt himself documents that he traveled personally to the Russian village of Nikitino to interview the villagers there, in order to gather the first hand information that he did about Rudometkin and his religious teachings and practices.

Soon, in the very near future, I hope to post excerpts from Dingel'shtedt’s book, translated from Russian into English, which document that Rudometkin's religious activities were exactly like those of the Khlysty, and were not indicative at all of any association with the historical "Molokans". In the meantime, for those who can read and comprehend the Russian language, the chapter that Dingel'shtedt devotes to information about the man, Rudometkin himself, was posted by Anakainosis in the History thread under the Faith section.

About Mel'nikov, Nicolai Dingel'shtedt, in his book entitled The Transcaucasian Sectarians, wrote the following, translated from Russian:

The renowned expert of the Russian Schism, Mel'nikov, says that we must learn about the Raskol through the living manifestations of handed-down beliefs. We must learn the customs of the Raskolniki to find out the view of the different Raskolnik's interpretations of the earthly and spiritual worlds, [by learning] the inner workings of their communities.

"We must", Melnikov says, "stand face to face with the Raskolniki and then an analysis is possible..." (P. I. Mel'nikov, from Letters of the Schism, Pgs. 1-15)

In case anyone missed it, Dingel'shtedt refers to Mel'nikov as the renowned expert of the Russian Schism. Obviously, contrary to what this new participant on the forum has attempted to imply, Mel'nikov was and is highly respected and regarded as an authority on the historical information which he recorded.

Also, notice that Mel'nikov himself states that the research about the sectarians must be done face to face.

Regarding:

If there was any factual connection between Khlyst and Molokan's it would have been pounced on. But the reality is, there is little factual information on Khlysty and Molokans. Perhaps why Dr. Breyfogle chose to further (and publish) his studies on the Dukhbors, that and too much "white noise" from individuals like you. And yet you fancy yourself more qualified with, as it appears, no formal research training. You may now commence your "wiggle" to save face with your comrades.

To repeat myself, there is no factual connection between the historical Khlysty and the historical "Molokans", nor has there ever been. This is not even an issue to discuss.

The historical "connection" which we are addressing is the fact that (1) Rudometkin's religious heritage comes from the Khlysty, and (2) that Rudometkin was influential in blending the religious practices of the Khlysty with bits and pieces that he borrowed from the historical "Molokans" to become the leader of a new sect, his followers whom he refers to specifically as "New Israel", which is a term that is historically Khlystical, NOT "Molokan".

The assumption that there is little factual information on Khlysty and Molokans is not true. That statement is an opinion, based on biased, wishful thinking. There is more than ample historical information available to understand the difference between Rudometkin and his Khlystical belief system, versus that of our historical "Molokan" forefathers.

And now, we have self proclaimed "authorities" and authentic "researchers" putting words into the mouths of the historians and speaking on behalf of Dr. Breyfogle about why he chose to publish his studies on the Dukhobors. Again, this is more personal opinion which is based on prejudicial assumption.

To conclude, I have never met anyone yet who denies that it would be good if we could obtain the "interview transcripts" of Mel'nikov, together with his travel itinerary showing where he traveled to in order to obtain the historical information that he did about Rudometkin and his Khlysty forefathers. I think this would be excellent.

At the same time, if there were any evidence available to document and prove that the man simply "made it up", as pure fiction, this too would be excellent.

However, all the Rudometkinites can do is to yammer and make a lot of noise while they voice their objection to the fact that historical information is available to read about their hero and spiritual leader, documentation which they do not want to hear, all done without any substantiation other than voicing their opinions loudly, and demanding the kind of authentication which they themselves refuse to provide in the writings of the Spirit and Life book.

The Rudometkinites want those who attend their church gatherings to just "accept" the assumption that what is written in the Spirit and Life book truly was recorded word for word, in chronological order, exactly in context of what can be proven exists in original handwritten documentation, which is available for anyone to view and verify.

When the request is made to grant the opportunity to authenticate that which people are being asked to believe, the Rudometkinites ignore any such requests and proceed with business as usual, continuing to perpetuate the myth and the fable that Rudometkinites are "really" a demographic of the historical "Molokans" and are not a remnant of the historical Khlysty at all, despite what any respected and recognized Russian historians might have written to the contrary.

The issue here in this discussion is the hypocrisy of the Rudometkinites.

When D a n n y S h u b i n writes in his English translations of the Spirit and Life book, that certain excerpts were omitted from I. G Samarin's original publication in the Russian language, but that D a n n y has restored them to their original place, how do we know that he is telling the truth, if we are not given the opportunity to compare with the original writings?

When the Rudometkinite elders and church leaders tell us that when Rudometkin writes about multiple wives, that he is using symbolism in reference to "churches", why won't the Rudometkinites present their documentation as evidence to prove their claims? After all, Rudometkin's writings are barely 150 years old. Surely it could not be that difficult for this new participant on the forum to scan and post the evidence?

All we continue to see from the Rudometkinites is lot of noise from a self proclaimed "authority" and self appointed "researcher" who cannot even produce the very authentication for that which the Rudometkinites expect others to accept and believe, a bunch of fables and myths which contradict the documented evidence that exists in the available historical record.

What a sorry excuse for someone who has supposedly "done my research". Talk about pitiful.

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September 3, 2010

To Hear Molokans of Today taking advantage of forefathers, by trying to justify thier own lazyness or Non-Ability to share The Gospel is sad.

America in it's totality barely uses a tiny bit of the freedom they have wars for to go out and really get down there and lose everything and find them who hunger. Molokans are lucky the freedom still sort of rings here in America. A time WILL come that their trying to pretend to be some peasant people and at the same time they are no differentr than the rest of the Country where they with-out a church that excludes other people. They may have to allow Homosexuality if things continue. Then not knowing Christ they will be with-out help

The man who wrote that garbage told us from his own lips recently the same story. I looked behind him and asked him about that big 50inch big screen TV? To say their is no time? Or to lie about them that ventured here?

"They could hardly put their minds to evangelizing?" Imagine if Christ was to tired to die for us? Christians get mocked, or should be getting mocked. If Molokans of today think they are just gonna play the,"we dont do this because our fore fathers didnt" they will never see them again.

Also, 1st generation, anybody does not want to change. Thats normal. But a person cannot go to America but remain a Russian while trying to pretend they are a Christian as it will last only so long. We are seeing that. It's a sad thing to appear in the image of a Russian than in the one who died for all who are called. If the older front row people would calm down and understand that "Ne-Nash" can be God's people too, they would come out a lot better than how they are going.

No ones picking up Russian enough to have it last much longer anyways. You would think that the "peasant" elders would sell some of their "hay" and "lumber" for ALL to learn? They do not care??

" To Evangelize in this country would have been almost impossible because, in the first place, Molokans were already predisposed for at least seventy years in Armenia not to evangelize. When they moved from the Tambov region of interior Russia to the unfriendly and underdeveloped region in the Transcaucasus, they had to begin a new life in a harsh environment. Except for a few leaders, they could hardly put their minds on evangelizing. Moreover, as significant as it was then and is now, Molokans did not want a strong central or local group to promote systematic evangelization. Second, after having arrived in America, Molokans also did not want to change neither their religious style of worship, nor their dress, nor their holidays, nor their language. Third, Molokans were considered odd and they felt the chill from established residents; and some people mocked them. Fourth, Molokans were poor, worldly ignorant peasants who were at the bottom class of society; therefore no one would have want to integrate with Molokans. Fifth, Molokans, even if they wanted, had no time for evangelizing because they were daily working up to ten or more hours for a six day week. Sixth, from the very beginning, Molokans had a bad experience with America where they learned that they could not compete legally, socially and religiously."
Again you're being lied to by the church elders, you will find in the introduction of the S&L this statement; Labors in spiritual enlightenment broadcast by then BY THE WILL OF GOD UNTO ALL MANKIND. Berokoff's argument for not evangelizing is pure spiritual pork and is an abomination to our Lord! To evangelize is easier now than it was in Christs time, would God send messengers during difficult times, YOU BET! Berokoff is selling a crock.

A Berokoff talks Christ then walks Khlyst.

seeking_truth_1 · January 14, 2012

To the top

seeking_truth_1 · January 22, 2012

While reviewing this thread a statement made by this person is VERY troubling

There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize.

Really?

Required by whom?

Scripture DOES NOT agree

18 Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given complete authority in heaven and on earth.

19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

20 Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20)

Why are you "fibbing"?

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize. To sit there on your keyboard and equate them to one Russian mystic (and there were many in this era) is borderline delusional. Best I can tell is you are reading in between the lines and then jumping to some extensive conclusions. I would almost say you are flat out fibbing.

seeking_truth_1 · July 25, 2012

For Uncle Bob

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Regarding:

Khlysty? There isn't a sociologist or historian on earth past or present that can be sure 100% of what they believed, due to the fact they were required to never divulge there religion or proselytize. To sit there on your keyboard and equate them to one Russian mystic (and there were many in this era) is borderline delusional. Best I can tell is you are reading in between the lines and then jumping to some extensive conclusions. I would almost say you are flat out fibbing.

Delusional? Jumping to conclusions? Fibbing?

Not hardly!

This topic has been covered so thoroughly over the years that I am amazed to see that we continue to revisit the subject of Rudometkin's Khlysty forefathers and the Khlystical influences upon the origin of the "Jumper" sect in Russia. For those who might not be familiar with this historical information, I am bringing to the top the thread entitled "History".

I would like to highlight a few of the excerpts from that thread:

Following are some historical facts, reprinted from a book entitled "Na Ghorakh", written by P. I. Melnikov, Second Edition, Fifth Volume, St. Petersburg, 1909.

(Translated from the original Russian)

God's People, or the Khlysty, as they are usually called among the people, believe that it is possible, in a direct, immediate connection, to always communicate the human soul with divinity. Being similar to the Dukhabors, they preach that the physical incarnation of Christ permanently and perpetually dwells on earth. This sect cannot even be considered as a denomination that is part of the Christian heresy.

(Part 3, Page 225)

The stories of God's People (the Khlysty) continue... about those christs who existed previously and now, about those christs who continue to walk the earth. Stories are heard how they (these christs) were imprisoned and how in Moscow they were crucified, but how on the third day they resurrected. It is heard that now, at the foot of Mount Ararat, lives a new christ, Makcim, who is regarded as a prophet, high priest and the king of God's People (the Khlysty)....

(Part 3, Page 264)

For several consecutive years, Igor Sergeyevitch travelled, going to central Russia, then to the Volga region, then to new Russia, even going to Siberia and abroad to Moldavia. Everywhere he went, he became acquainted with the People of God (the Khlysty) and before he returned, while he was in the Transcaucases, he became acquainted there with the "Visionaries", or better known by the name the "Jumpers".

The Visionaries. They called only themselves by this name because they were convinced that they visualized the Holy Spirit. They also called themselves the "spiritual". Because of the fact that the Visionaries take part in a physical manifestation of spirit, like the Khlysty, and also because they make believe as if they "visualize the spirit" or spirits, the outsiders call them (the Visionaries) "Jumpers" and "Shakers".

This sect, a blend of the teachings and practices of the Molokans mixed with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty, arose among those who were banished to the Transcaucases together with the Molokans from the Milky Water region. They (the Visionaries) consider their founder to be Lukian Sokoloff. The biggest part of the Jumper sect lives in the village of Nikitino, close to Alexandropol. They are also found in the region of Erevan, in the Lenkoransko region and in other areas of the Transcaucases.

The successor of Sokoloff was Makcim Rudometkin, or Komar, who was regarded as a christ, prophet, high priest and king of the "spiritual" (the Jumpers or Visionaries). He was triumphantly and pompously coronated in the village of Nikitino--(That is, this new sect is altogether different and separate from the original Molokans who call themselves "True Spiritual Christians".)

The people from the Lupovits region impatiently waited for the return of Igor Sergeyevitch. He travelled from the foot of Mount Ararat, from the places near the upper regions of the Euphrates River, where, before the beginning of creation, God's earthly paradise was planted and where, according to how the People of God (the Khlysty) believe, God will open up anew for the glorious existence of the holy righteous, for the everlasting service of their God and Lamb.

The news reached the Lupovits region that there, at the foot of Mount Ararat, appeared a king, prophet and high priest who was triumphantly and pompously coronated and who, having clothed himself in royal purple, along with other distinguishing royal attire, he put on a crown and , in imitation of King David, with a harp in hand, danced and jumped among a large throng of people on the broad street of the village of Nikitino. The news also reached the Lupovits region that this King Komar (Rudometkin) saved aside the wife to whom he was legally married and he took himself an additional "spiritual" wife.

It was explained that all the "holy men" from the Mount Ararat region had "Spiritual" wives. Some had one, others had two and still others had three "spiritual" wives. (Part 3, Page 119)

Lukian Peter Sokoloff. He was a Molokan from the settlement of Lalamatin, in the county of Kamishinska, in the state of Saratov, who, yet from the year of 1836, while living in the Milky Water region, began to concentrate his efforts to blend and mix the teachings and practices of the Molokans with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty, but he did not have any success there with his mystical teachings and enthusiastic ceremonies. It is unknown where Sokoloff then left to but it is said that he possibly went to Moldavia.

In 1836, when the people in the Milky Water region awaited the end of the world, there appeared his (Sokoloff's) accomplices (it is unknown who they were), calling themselves the Apocalyptical "Enoch and Elijah". Their boldness reached the point where they even interrupted church services in the Orthodox temple, shouting out during the services and doing different licentious acts. Right after them appeared the Judge of the living and the dead, the christ and prophet, Lukian Sokoloff.

More than once, he (Sokoloff) designated the day of fearful judgement, but the archangel's trumpet never did roar, although Sokoloff brought attention to Halley's Comet (which appeared in 1836) and how it was the foreteller of the fact that the end of the world was near. With each night, the comet got brighter and brighter but the people got used to it and in the end, it began to fade away and then Enoch, Elijah and even the Judge, Lukian Sokoloff, vanished to unknown places.

Soon he (Sokoloff) appeared in the state of Samaria and there, many Molokans and Khlysty were enticed (by Sokoloff) to the Transcaucases. More than once, he led a crowd of followers by enticing them to the foot of Mount Ararat, returning past the praries of the Volga region for new migrants, but it is unknown what happened to him in the end. Traces of him appeared in Bessarabia. Sokoloff was in Asiatic Turkey and Persia, and from there, he returned to the state of Erevan, where his continued efforts to blend and mix the teachings and practices of the Molokans with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty produced the separate heresy, the "Jumpers" or "Visionaries".

He was especially close with Makcim Komar or Rudometkin, who, it is said, was the first from among the Molokans to participate in the physical manifestation of the Khlysty, (which took place during their special mystical and enthusiastic services called the "radenia"), in the village of Nikitino. It is unknown what happened to Lukian Sokoloff. (Part 3, Pages 295-296)

And Makcim (Rudometkin) reigned over the "People of God" (Khlysty). On the street of the village of Nikitino, during a ceremony under the open sky, he put on a royal crown, along with a robe of royal purple, and he leaped and danced in the manner of King David, playing music on the stringed organ, and, placing himself as Christ, he (Rudometkin) took upon himself the rank of High Priest and Prophet above all prophets. ( Part 3, Page 291)

…and among the sectarians at Mt. Ararat, the Khlysty began to blend and mix together with the Molokans, both rejecting and renouncing the (Russian Orthodox) Church and all of its ceremonies and rituals. From this mixture of Khlysty blended with Molokans, arose, first in the Caucasus, and then in other places in Southern Russia, the sect known as "Visionaries" or "Jumpers" ….and from among the Visionaries appeared a king, prophet and high priest. This king Makcim (Rudometkin) received unlimited authority and domination over the Jumpers, and for the most part, contributed to the blending of the doctrines of the Khlysty with the teachings and practices of the Molokans. It is generally known that he is responsible for changing the old teachings of the Khlysty and for dictating new laws, including the practice of taking a "spiritual wife". (Part 3, Page 226)

And what about "spiritual wives" among the sectarians living at Mt. Ararat ? This also Makcim (Rudometkin) instituted. Now he has two wives, and others there (among his followers) have three and even more (spiritual wives) …they (his followers) say there (at Mt. Ararat) that "we are the 'People of God' (Khlysty), led by the spirit, we are 'New Israel', and we conduct ourselves as it was with Israel (Jacob) who had two wives, who were related between themselves as sisters (Leah and Rachel), and, besides that, he (Jacob) had two maidservants (Zilpah and Bilhah), and from all of these four (women) come forth (Genesis 29:14 – Genesis 30:24), equally blessed, the offspring (12 tribes) of Israel (Jacob)". (Part 3, Page 297)

In his book entitled Russian Noncomformity (Page 110), the Russian historian Serge Bolshakoff, writes that in addition to "preserving their own Khlysty features", the new Jumper sect adopted the mystical Khlysty ritual of "sacred dancing and prophesying", and they changed the Khlysty office of "christ", renaming him "czar/king" (as in "Czar Dooghov/King of Spirits").

.

July 25, 2012

Hi seeking

just want to ask you and coffee

you posted the following

Following are some historical facts, reprinted from a book entitled "Na Ghorakh", written by P. I. Melnikov, Second Edition, Fifth Volume, St. Petersburg, 1909.

Do you believe that the whole book is true and contains historical facts? Simple yes or no

seeking_truth_1 · July 26, 2012

Coffee has passed away and that was a quote from him

I'll answer your question when you answer my question regarding the "hammy sammy" situation

Seems fair

Hi seeking

just want to ask you and coffee

you posted the following

Following are some historical facts, reprinted from a book entitled "Na Ghorakh", written by P. I. Melnikov, Second Edition, Fifth Volume, St. Petersburg, 1909.

Do you believe that the whole book is true and contains historical facts? Simple yes or no

July 26, 2012

Hi seeking

do you want me to copy and post some other interesting as you call them historical facts about MGR directly out of the book Na Gorakh in the original russian language and you can translate it yourself or i can translate for you and the rest of the people looking into this forum.

It would be a great read any else what me to post it let me know and i will get onto it some juicy info in this book.

Coffee has passed away and that was a quote from him

I'll answer your question when you answer my question regarding the "hammy sammy" situation

Seems fair

Hi seeking

just want to ask you and coffee

you posted the following

Following are some historical facts, reprinted from a book entitled "Na Ghorakh", written by P. I. Melnikov, Second Edition, Fifth Volume, St. Petersburg, 1909.

Do you believe that the whole book is true and contains historical facts? Simple yes or no

July 27, 2012

Hi seeking

can you please tell me using so called historical facts on these questions.

What age was he when he was sent?

Why was MGR to the Transcaucases?

Hi seeking

do you want me to copy and post some other interesting as you call them historical facts about MGR directly out of the book Na Gorakh in the original russian language and you can translate it yourself or i can translate for you and the rest of the people looking into this forum.

It would be a great read any else what me to post it let me know and i will get onto it some juicy info in this book.

Coffee has passed away and that was a quote from him

I'll answer your question when you answer my question regarding the "hammy sammy" situation

Seems fair

Hi seeking

just want to ask you and coffee

you posted the following

Following are some historical facts, reprinted from a book entitled "Na Ghorakh", written by P. I. Melnikov, Second Edition, Fifth Volume, St. Petersburg, 1909.

Do you believe that the whole book is true and contains historical facts? Simple yes or no

July 28, 2012

Hi seeking

can you please tell me using so called historical facts on these questions.

What age was he when he was sent?

Why was MGR to the Transcaucases?

Still waiting for an answer?

seeking_truth_1 · July 28, 2012

What does it matter?

I really do not care about a guy whose legacy is causing a cult

July 28, 2012

What does it matter?

I really do not care about a guy whose legacy is causing a cult

Oh really you dont care

Judging by the forums on this website you put more time and effort and talk more about MGR than some of the hardcore maximisti.

So form your immense historical knowledge about MGR why cant you answer 2 simple questions?

How old was MGR when he went to the Trans caucus?

Why did he go to the Trans caucus?

seeking_truth_1 · July 28, 2012

When's his birthday?

What was his favorite color?

These too are spurious questions

Again, who cares about someone who left a cult as a legacy

Compare his writings to the Bible and it'll all make sense if you truly have accepted His Son as Lord and Savior

July 29, 2012

When's his birthday?

What was his favorite color?

These too are spurious questions

Again, who cares about someone who left a cult as a legacy

Compare his writings to the Bible and it'll all make sense if you truly have accepted His Son as Lord and Savior

Didnt you were so shy about answering 2 questions, you seem to have plenty of historical facts on other things but cant answer 2 questions. Signs of fear here.

How about this question then if you are afraid to answer the other 2.

You quote extensively from the book by Melnikov "Na Gorakh" now do you believe this book contains true historical facts?

seeking_truth_1 · July 29, 2012

Actually no I do not quote extensively from that book

Coffee certainly did and I was recirculating his study

As far as the entire book being "Accurate" I've not read the entire book to determine that

However, as it relates to ol rudi, I have no reason to doubt it's veracity

Coffee knew his stuff and dedicated a large portion of his ministry to understanding and exposing the cult of molokanism

When's his birthday?

What was his favorite color?

These too are spurious questions

Again, who cares about someone who left a cult as a legacy

Compare his writings to the Bible and it'll all make sense if you truly have accepted His Son as Lord and Savior

Didnt you were so shy about answering 2 questions, you seem to have plenty of historical facts on other things but cant answer 2 questions. Signs of fear here.

How about this question then if you are afraid to answer the other 2.

You quote extensively from the book by Melnikov "Na Gorakh" now do you believe this book contains true historical facts?

July 29, 2012

seeking

if you are seeking the truth why do you believe in what other people quote from a book you never read yourself and never studied?

Secondly if you approach a book with a bias of what fits in with my belief must be the truth and what doesnt fit in with my belief is not true, so you spend your time looking for things that fit in with your belief but never pay any attention to the other side of the story? Having this approach:

Is this really seeking the truth or having a bias to what you think is the truth and then finding material in books to make yourself feel good that what is your idea of the truth is true?

July 31, 2012

seeking

if you are seeking the truth why do you believe in what other people quote from a book you never read yourself and never studied?

Secondly if you approach a book with a bias of what fits in with my belief must be the truth and what doesnt fit in with my belief is not true, so you spend your time looking for things that fit in with your belief but never pay any attention to the other side of the story? Having this approach:

Is this really seeking the truth or having a bias to what you think is the truth and then finding material in books to make yourself feel good that what is your idea of the truth is true?

Regarding your Khlyst religion uncle bob, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.......http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/k/khlysty.html

One of the basic Khlysty teachings was of the ever-renewing reincarnation of God, or the Lord, in man.

Spirit and Life page 607 verse 4, And verily, I well know that with this new name of mine I shall never die. I shall only be renewed manifestly in this body of mine every hundred years. page 607.4 Changed wording found in another translation. ...And truly, I myself know very well, that with this new name of mine, I will forever, never die, but only every one hundred years in this very flesh of mine, I will be changed in visible appearance. (Translated from the Russian text)

The birth at Nazareth, where God became man, was not an isolated event, but was constantly being repeated.

This reincarnation of God in man is only achieved by the total self-denial and submission to the will of the Holy Spirit. This was called the "mysterious death" by which the person dies to all sensations of the flesh, he no longer can sin. He now passes through what was called the "mysterious resurrection. Once the person has underwent this mystical transformation he shares in the divine abilities to heal, prophesy, raise the dead, rescue souls from hell and lead them to heaven.

And the gentiles, our workers for the millennium, will also settle all together straight in his holy camp and beloved city (formerly) ours because of their labors on our behalf. Page 609.11

Pg. 464 Bk. 9 Art. 15 Ver. 2-3 And he who opposes me [M.G.R.] will die by death today, whoever he may be. For he has neither hearkened unto the voice of the God of the earth,

and during which I prayed diligently for those believing in the God of the earth

Also on the day of the Last Judgment he can deliver out rewards and punishments.

Page 464.2-3, earlier S&L "And he who opposes me [M.G.R.] will die by death today, whoever he may be. For he has neither hearkened unto the voice of the God of the earth, and during which I prayed diligently for those believing in the God of the earth."

Page 539.9 And for this I will give him over to anathema by the Spirit of my God Naraftan.

Pg. 444.21 And he who disobeys these ten commandments given by me in God surely is my enemy, and he will be banished by me immediately from Zion yonder, straight to Babylon,

"O foolish and blind is our remaining half, for they never seem to have heard these Words of the command of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, Who said them Himself personally, "Receive Him who I send." For this Spirit is in person God Himself and the King of all the New Israel." pg 434.1-2

And I am the seven-storied, heavenly ladder, by only which the songs and prayers of the saints eternally ascend and descend! Page 603.32

"I (Rudometkin) am the Book of the Sun. I am the memory of God Almighty! I (Rudometkin) am life eternal! In the nineteenth century I descended personally to you from the heavens onto the earth........Now all who desire come, take of My (Rudometkin's) water freely, for My water is a true beverage, and he who drinks will be filled with wisdom and life immortal" {Rudometkin in S&L Book 9, Article 22, Verses 1,2&8 (Black cover translation)}

..."Here I, Admeyil, entrust this book of mine to that man, who by it, can truly serve me, as well as all of my spiritual community, those who everywhere confess the Spirit of my suffering." (Book 1, Article 1, Verse 1)

Pg. 516.1 MGR "You are my male and female friends! Do not deal with me in this manner, for I am your Lord and the eternal Guarantor of your souls. Although I am equal with you in the flesh, my Spirit is God higher than all of you."

Pg. 417 Bk. 1 Art. 8 Ver. 14 And has therein given me [M.G.R.] a new name: Akhmet Ulia. And He has also clearly confined in me the new law of freedom, and the forgiveness of all sins through me, His anointed.

&L pg. 544 "And You will set me, Your anointed, in Your place as a king upon the earth for the whole thousand years. And likewise You will enthrone all of my people everywhere.

S&L pg, 695 "Oh you brothers and sisters! Please believe that this is the King of Israel, and his name is Maxim Gavrilovitch! For he is the King and leader of Israel

S&L pg, 696 "All banners shall submit themselves to the Banner of the King of Spirits.

S&L pg, 700 "Let us go ask the King of Spirits, and what he shall tell us of the road to Zion, then listen to him.

Greetings to you, the beloved new city Oblitan, Mount Ugvagir Akhlimag! The Paradise of paradises, the camp of the saints, the village of Nikitino, and all those belonging to her, who today are everywhere to be found in my new Spirit. (Page 574, Book 13, Article 1, Verses 4-5)…..This letter I send to you to repeat a previous one, sent to you last year with the same subject; only I did not receive a response from you. This letter is addressed to those in the city Oblitan, the new Jerusalem.... (Page 292, Book 4, Article 14, Verse 14)

Pg 476 S&L 2. And we all unite ourselves under the guidance of the Spirit of truth. 3. For in this Spirit we must reign triumphantly with Christ upon the good land for a thousand years and also together with His annointed, Maxim Havrilovich. 4. Who for the victory he gained over the beast is placed personally over us by Christ Himself, as the principal worldwide king. 5. And, for this reason every believer of the Spirit of truth must quickly and before all accept him, our Maxim, as the King personified. 6. And bow down at his feet with gifts that whatever any person sincerely gives from his soul. 7. And for this each will receive a blessing from him to last for ages. Amen, truth, Amen.

This man was thought to be God and man together, a new Christ.

Page 434.2 For this Spirit is in person God Himself and the King of all the new Israel. And whoever blasphemies of forsakes It will be accursed in this age and in the future one.

"how am I [M.G.R] to blame if God Himself and His Son Jesus Christ chose me from among all the nations, and annointed me with their Holy Spirit as the third feature, their eternal Melchizedek, to be the chief and leader of the new Israel!" Maxim Rudometkin - Spirit & Life Bk. 4 Art. 1 Ver. 13….

for I am your Lord and your eternal Guarantor of your souls. Although I am equal with you in the flesh, my spirit is God higher than all of you. Page 516 verse 1

"how am I [MGR] to blame if God Himself and His Son Jesus Christ chose me from among all the nations, and anointed me with their Holy Spirit as the third feature, their eternal Melchizedek, to be the chief and leader of the new Israel!" Pg. 268.13

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF sat upon the white steed and is personified as the King of Spirits and God to the Faithfull. Read S&L page 286.

Bk. 9 Art. 25 Ver. 5-6 For this reason each believer of the Spirit of truth must quickly and before all accept him, our Maxim as the King [Christ] personified and bow down at his feet with gifts;

pg. 449 S&L verse 9-12

And all the more at the present time more shall be born of Me the new heir named Akhmet Ulia, and My new wife Akhmetala. For I perceive that from Noah and his wife Noah-Gamera almost all the descendants walk everywhere in sin. But from Me now with My Wife, that shall never happen. Because there will be given Me from God a new and blessed seed with a countless yield of fruit like a spring never to dry up. Which has never existed in any King or Prophet on Earth before, and which besides Me cannot exist without Me.

# 21. Hosanna is the highest! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! 22. The King of new Israel, or the King of Spirits! 23. Hosanna Naraftan! May the name of the Lord be blessed in Me (Maxim) from henceforth and unto the age of ages, Amen. MGR page 286 21-23.

Pg. 417 Bk. 8 Art. 1 Ver. 13 And truly He [Christ] is the very One that has anointed me [M.G.R.] personally as a King and prophet for 1000 years.

Pg. 544 Bk. 11 Art. 16 Ver. 13 And you will set me [M.G.R.], Your anointed, in Your [Christ's] place as a king upon earth for the whole 1000 years.

Pg. 526 Bk. 10 Art. 31 Ver. 1 The writer of this message is a man, by birth a resident of this world, named Ulesar, the King Ures, the new Jewish Messiah. [Christ]

"O foolish and blind is our remaining half, for they never seem to have heard these Words of the command of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, Who said them Himself personally, "Receive Him who I send." For this Spirit is in person God Himself and the King of all the New Israel." pg 434.1-2

Although I, by my first birth, am a man of sinful bones, but by my second birth, I am the Lord Himself, from heaven. (Page 415, Book 7, Article 27, Verses 6-8)

Along with this teaching of the reincarnation of God within man was taught that the teachings of the Holy Spirit was often disguised behind the actions of these men and were only recognized by the confirmed believers in the Khlysty sect. Once this reincarnated God appeared as a dumb peasant, Andri Petrov, making meaningless sounds.

..."Alkhayim Fatmie, Angha Ishmaghah Shaghmas" from Book 1, Article 3, Verse 9…."Alfeyil Likhtamis" from Book 1, Article 5, Verse 12…."Admeyil" from Book 1, Article 35, Verse 9.

Again a prophet Radaev was thought to be the reincarnated God. At one time Radaev lived with thirteen women, but the Holy Spirit spoke through him.

Spirit and Life page 591 declaration 1, Now I must also gather a second time seven new wives who are to be chosen from virgin girls; who already forever will not know another husband besides me.

The sect banned sexual intercourse in a marriage blessed by a priest because such a marriage which bound a man to his wife was, in their eyes, the grievous sin against the Holy Spirit. The priest's blessing was also considered the seal of the Antichrist. If a celebrant was married when entering the sect, he was to abandon his wife and his children was to be known as his "sins."

However, other forms of love were permitted by the Khlysty. Participants were allowed to sleep with partners in "spiritual marriages" but no carnal relationships were to occur between them. There seems to be evidence that physical relationships did occur especially within the Khlysty worship services known as the Radenyi or Arks of the People of God.

“Perhaps because of this, you left my beloved wife, my Spiritual marriage, mother to all believers of the Holy Spirit, by the name of Sterafina---the enthroned queen of the Spirit, patently, my eternal alliance of love with her” (mgr - book 4, article 2, verse 7).

Like the Khlysty sectarians who held their teachings came directly from God and were not known by the common Orthodox Russians, the Gnostics believed that Jesus shared secret teachings with them which He did not tell the ordinary members of the Christian faith.

For this reason each believer of the Spirit of truth must quickly and before all accept him, our Maxim, as the king personified, and bow down at his feet with gifts. Mgr ???

...this new eternally unheard-of narrative (Page 490, Book 10, Article 1, Verse 1)

...a new unheard-of prophetic secret (Page 494, Book 10, Article 5, Verse 1)

For ages now, what has nowhere been heard by anyone on earth, is this, my newly-wonderous narrative...(Page 494, Book 10, Article 5, Verse 4)

From Page 508, v 2-3:

v2, Except for only me alone, your leader, by the revelation of My God, I came to know these (new words) clearly, in the spirit, in my nightly visions, as if looking at my own face in a mirror.

v3, That is why I wish to personally reveal all of this to you, the new Israel, in these detailed lines, and show all of you the true new path of the King My God, and the eternal procession upon it.

...this new teaching of mine...(Page 535, Book 11, Article 7, Verse 2)

I think, that this new teaching of mine will not be made known to our sinistral Molokans...(Page 535, Book 11, Article 7, Verse 3)

This is why every believer seeing this, will here then give glory to this new spirit...(Page 542, Book 11, Article 15, Verse 4)

I wish to reveal all of this for you the New Israel, in these same lines, and truly show all of you the new path of the King my God, and the eternal procession of it. (Page 508, Book 10, Article 18, Verse 3)

"For my newly wondrous narrative has never been heard of anywhere on earth by anyone of the ages; and which I reveal to you here by the "New" spirit for the welfare of your entire soul and body." MGR 10/5/4 pg. 494

July 31, 2012

What Hindu, pagan & Buddhist teachings are found in Biblical Christianity?

There isn't a single one

Now can the same be said of the cult of molokanism?

that would be a negative ghost rider... the pattern is full

The Golden Rule has been around forever.

July 31, 2012

Hi guest

Now i can do the same thing that you have done with the S&L and the Bible.

Have you ever talked to an atheist or a muslim in your life. Because what you have misquoted twisted out of context in the S&L an atheist and a muslim will do with the bible to prove Christianity wrong.

Secondly if that is how you believe i have no problem if you made the choice not to believe in the S&L that is ok with me, the only thing that i dont like is people who dont accept or believe in the S&L who go out and set up a phony molokan site (if you are anti molokan why dont you call your site that) and than prey on unsuspecting individuals to pour out their bitterness and hatred out on.

Once again why dont you go through the S&L and post all the passages where MGR writes about Christ you can just tell one side of the story.

MGR always refers to him being a white steed and Christ being his rider that means MGR is doing nothing out of his own will he is only doing the will of the rider which is MGR.

Also doing what you have just done that is take the S&L way out of context, if i apply that to the Bible i can come up with some way out there things too.

Look if i do the same thing that you have just done Isiah becomes God who created everything

Isiah 45:12 I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded.

I can do the same thing that you have just done and make Isiah look like he was Christ and Saviour

Isiah 43: 3 For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

Doing the same thing that you have just done i can show that Paul was Christ reincarnate

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;

Or there a thousands of Christ reincarnates if i do the same thing as you have done.

Colossians 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

This is all examples of how someone can do the same thing that you have just done and twist writings to fit in with his/her beliefs.

I can go through thousands of books and show you that there are a lot of similarities between Horus and Christ, you can find the same similarities in many other faiths and they all have books that they quote to prove themselves right.

However it is up to the individual to decide for himself in what he believes and what he doesnt believe personally i dont believe in any of the Khlyst evidence that you provide because it was a written by people who are just like twist storys to fit there agenda.

If you are truly saved and have found peace with Christ why are you still full of bitterness and hatred towards the molokans. If you didnt believe and left thats ok find another faith where you can find peace and serve God. And if you have found than there is no reason to keep spread your bitterness.

July 31, 2012

This is all examples of how someone can do the same thing that you have just done and twist writings to fit in with his/her beliefs.

I can go through thousands of books and show you that there are a lot of similarities between Horus and Christ, you can find the same similarities in many other faiths and they all have books that they quote to prove themselves right.

However it is up to the individual to decide for himself in what he believes and what he doesnt believe personally i dont believe in any of the Khlyst evidence that you provide because it was a written by people who are just like twist storys to fit there agenda.

If you are truly saved and have found peace with Christ why are you still full of bitterness and hatred towards the molokans. If you didnt believe and left thats ok find another faith where you can find peace and serve God. And if you have found than there is no reason to keep spread your bitterness.

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5:11)

"rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;" (Titus 1:13)

Just following orders friend, if you don't like it, talk to my Boss.

August 1, 2012

Hi guest

Now i can do the same thing that you have done with the S&L and the Bible.

Have you ever talked to an atheist or a muslim in your life. Because what you have misquoted twisted out of context in the S&L an atheist and a muslim will do with the bible to prove Christianity wrong.

Secondly if that is how you believe i have no problem if you made the choice not to believe in the S&L that is ok with me, the only thing that i dont like is people who dont accept or believe in the S&L who go out and set up a phony molokan site (if you are anti molokan why dont you call your site that) and than prey on unsuspecting individuals to pour out their bitterness and hatred out on.

Once again why dont you go through the S&L and post all the passages where MGR writes about Christ you can just tell one side of the story.

MGR always refers to him being a white steed and Christ being his rider that means MGR is doing nothing out of his own will he is only doing the will of the rider which is MGR.

Also doing what you have just done that is take the S&L way out of context, if i apply that to the Bible i can come up with some way out there things too.

Look if i do the same thing that you have just done Isiah becomes God who created everything

Isiah 45:12 I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded.

I can do the same thing that you have just done and make Isiah look like he was Christ and Saviour

Isiah 43: 3 For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

Doing the same thing that you have just done i can show that Paul was Christ reincarnate

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;

Or there a thousands of Christ reincarnates if i do the same thing as you have done.

Colossians 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

This is all examples of how someone can do the same thing that you have just done and twist writings to fit in with his/her beliefs.

I can go through thousands of books and show you that there are a lot of similarities between Horus and Christ, you can find the same similarities in many other faiths and they all have books that they quote to prove themselves right.

However it is up to the individual to decide for himself in what he believes and what he doesnt believe personally i dont believe in any of the Khlyst evidence that you provide because it was a written by people who are just like twist storys to fit there agenda.

If you are truly saved and have found peace with Christ why are you still full of bitterness and hatred towards the molokans. If you didnt believe and left thats ok find another faith where you can find peace and serve God. And if you have found than there is no reason to keep spread your bitterness.

Did Isiah say he forgives sin or judges Salvation? Did Isiah say it was ok to murder children to get saved like Maxim did? Now you wouldn't be one to twist Scripture to suit your needs, would you? Have EG Klubniki's pyramid in heaven where one of the 8 or so named molokan gods lives. Stop inferring God of the Bible teaches untruths when your prestol perpetuates contrary beliefs. Climb your ladder to heaven in peace.

August 1, 2012

Did Isiah say he forgives sin or judges Salvation? Did Isiah say it was ok to murder children to get saved like Maxim did? Now you wouldn't be one to twist Scripture to suit your needs, would you? Have EG Klubniki's pyramid in heaven where one of the 8 or so named molokan gods lives. Stop inferring God of the Bible teaches untruths when your prestol perpetuates contrary beliefs. Climb your ladder to heaven in peace.

Why do you keep doing that? Uncle Bob already showed that "murder" was a mistranslation. And I've already debunked your Tartar fairy tales, yet you keep mentioning them over and over again.

I am certain that you are the biggest pretend Christian here.

August 1, 2012

Hi guest

Once again why dont you go through the S&L and post all the passages where MGR writes about Christ you can just tell one side of the story.

Uncle bob, how many lords does your prestol teach about? A Lord other than Abraham has. ………….Oh my!

417.6 Of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, king David, and THEIR Jesus Christ Himself, and myself the Spirit of the King, the governor of the world.

Sounds like your governor Akhmet wasn't a christ yet, just the lower status holy spirit incarnate. The teachings one can find in your church.................

seeking_truth_1 · August 1, 2012

The tartar's were predominately Turks in the immediate area where the molokans were sent. This (based upon my understanding) was in an attempt to wipe them out by placing them between the Armenians and Turks

You cannot wholly dismiss the tartar influence so quickly especially since mgr does overtly refer to himself as god of same

I'd also be wary of judging anothers Salvation by calling them a "pretend" Christian

You can certainly doubt if they are or not based upon what they say unless they OVERTLY deny the core tenets of Christianity

I've taken to saying, in a best case "I don't know if someone is or isn't" if they claim to be a Christian but their testimony is contrary to their actions

Did Isiah say he forgives sin or judges Salvation? Did Isiah say it was ok to murder children to get saved like Maxim did? Now you wouldn't be one to twist Scripture to suit your needs, would you? Have EG Klubniki's pyramid in heaven where one of the 8 or so named molokan gods lives. Stop inferring God of the Bible teaches untruths when your prestol perpetuates contrary beliefs. Climb your ladder to heaven in peace.

Why do you keep doing that? Uncle Bob already showed that "murder" was a mistranslation. And I've already debunked your Tartar fairy tales, yet you keep mentioning them over and over again.

I am certain that you are the biggest pretend Christian here.

August 1, 2012

Did Isiah say he forgives sin or judges Salvation? Did Isiah say it was ok to murder children to get saved like Maxim did? Now you wouldn't be one to twist Scripture to suit your needs, would you? Have EG Klubniki's pyramid in heaven where one of the 8 or so named molokan gods lives. Stop inferring God of the Bible teaches untruths when your prestol perpetuates contrary beliefs. Climb your ladder to heaven in peace.

Why do you keep doing that? Uncle Bob already showed that "murder" was a mistranslation. And I've already debunked your Tartar fairy tales, yet you keep mentioning them over and over again.

I am certain that you are the biggest pretend Christian here.

Rudometkin believed in the god of the Tartars and Abraham, where do the Tartars live? I did say it was an OPINION, you proved nothing.

Rudometkin didn't use the word murder, I don't know where that came from, someones obvious mistake. Rudometkinn used the word "kills".

page 593.8-9. "For all these lawless people and their children, God has assigned eternal death without resurrection, or according to that which is written, having no consolation. 9. And he who kills such as these will be made a saint by God,

Thank You Khlysti, for proving and confirming my point. What about receiving Salvation for killing children, shouldn't that be a troubling teaching to find on the prestol?

August 2, 2012

First, the Tatars reside no where near Armenia or Turkey, but that's beside the point.

I see it increasingly common now-a-days that people carry the banner of Christendom for no other reason than it is opposed to something they don't like, sort of like neo-crusaders. Well, I feel like "guest" falls into this category of Christian.

If a truely saved person tells a lie, he will always feel shame. "Guest" is the type that won't even admit that he has lied, even when caught red-handed, like he has been a couple of times already. If one can't admit to themselves that they've lied, then they can't be repentant, and salvation is impossible.

But, who knows, maybe deep down he does feel ashamed.

The tartar's were predominately Turks in the immediate area where the molokans were sent. This (based upon my understanding) was in an attempt to wipe them out by placing them between the Armenians and Turks

You cannot wholly dismiss the tartar influence so quickly especially since mgr does overtly refer to himself as god of same

I'd also be wary of judging anothers Salvation by calling them a "pretend" Christian

You can certainly doubt if they are or not based upon what they say unless they OVERTLY deny the core tenets of Christianity

I've taken to saying, in a best case "I don't know if someone is or isn't" if they claim to be a Christian but their testimony is contrary to their actions

seeking_truth_1 · August 2, 2012

Well it would appear the Armenians hold the tartar turks responsible for many deaths in 1905 in that particular region

http://www.armeniapedia.org/wiki/Armenian_History

Revisionist history on your part?

August 2, 2012

Not history.

Geography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan

Well it would appear the Armenians hold the tartar turks responsible for many deaths in 1905 in that particular region

http://www.armeniapedia.org/wiki/Armenian_History

Revisionist history on your part?

Armeniapedia? Yeah, that sounds credible.

.

August 2, 2012

Rudometkin believed in the god of the Tartars and Abraham, where do the Tartars live? I did say it was an OPINION, you proved nothing.

Rudometkin didn't use the word murder, I don't know where that came from, someones obvious mistake. Rudometkinn used the word "kills".

page 593.8-9. "For all these lawless people and their children, God has assigned eternal death without resurrection, or according to that which is written, having no consolation. 9. And he who kills such as these will be made a saint by God,

Thank You Khlysti, for proving and confirming my point. What about receiving Salvation for killing children, shouldn't that be a troubling teaching to find on the prestol?

Your lie became an opinion after I called you out on it.

If you can show that Uncle Bob was wrong about the mistranslation of "kills", then by all means, do so. Otherwise, I can only assume at this point that you are intentionally spreading a lie.

What a sad, sad, little man you are.

seeking_truth_1 · August 2, 2012

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/584107/Tatar

Here too...

Says the same thing

And here

http://books.google.com/books/about/Caucas...id=7AnoAQAACAAJ

Just because they have a homeland in a particular area now has NO bearing on their origins or migratory patterns

Do you deny mgr making the statement he is the "god" of the tartars?

August 2, 2012

Your lie became an opinion after I called you out on it.

If you can show that Uncle Bob was wrong about the mistranslation of "kills", then by all means, do so. Otherwise, I can only assume at this point that you are intentionally spreading a lie.

What a sad, sad, little man you are.

Here ya go.

Your first quote from page 593 this is what it says in russian

9 И всяк ныне избиваяй таковых да будеть от Бога свять

Know copy the highlighted word and go to google translate and get it to translate the word from russian to english you will see that the translation will be beat and not kill. If you dont know russian that is exactly what that word means to beat and not to kill. So this is an error in translation.

Secondly if you are going to use this verse to prove that the S&L is false let me show you some passages from the Bible and if we apply the same logic that you are using that means that the Bible is false too. Please feel free to answer these verses.

bucket, In the Phineas account who did Phineas beat? "Beat" is not biblical, more church lies through Maxim, thank you Khlysti, for calling that to our attention.

Phineas did kill both lovers.

August 2, 2012

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/584107/Tatar

Here too...

Says the same thing

And here

http://books.google.com/books/about/Caucas...id=7AnoAQAACAAJ

Just because they have a homeland in a particular area now has NO bearing on their origins or migratory patterns

Do you deny mgr making the statement he is the "god" of the tartars?

Well, their origins are closer to Mongolia, but I guess they could have migrated to the South Caucuses en masse and then moved back.

I don't see what any of this has to do with Naraftan the Tatar god. Do you believe that mumbo-jumbo?

To answer your question: I don't own an S&L so I don't know what MGR wrote.

August 3, 2012

You still dont understand do you guest

In Isiah i showed how someone can twist the word of God to fit in with their beliefs what i posted about Isiah calling himself God and being a Savior, i dont believe this way i just showed you how

you twist the writings in the S&L if you apply the same twisting to the Bible you can come up with all sorts of things. Try reading the post again and understand what im writing about.

Hi guest

Now i can do the same thing that you have done with the S&L and the Bible.

Have you ever talked to an atheist or a muslim in your life. Because what you have misquoted twisted out of context in the S&L an atheist and a muslim will do with the bible to prove Christianity wrong.

Secondly if that is how you believe i have no problem if you made the choice not to believe in the S&L that is ok with me, the only thing that i dont like is people who dont accept or believe in the S&L who go out and set up a phony molokan site (if you are anti molokan why dont you call your site that) and than prey on unsuspecting individuals to pour out their bitterness and hatred out on.

Once again why dont you go through the S&L and post all the passages where MGR writes about Christ you can just tell one side of the story.

MGR always refers to him being a white steed and Christ being his rider that means MGR is doing nothing out of his own will he is only doing the will of the rider which is MGR.

Also doing what you have just done that is take the S&L way out of context, if i apply that to the Bible i can come up with some way out there things too.

Look if i do the same thing that you have just done Isiah becomes God who created everything

Isiah 45:12 I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded.

I can do the same thing that you have just done and make Isiah look like he was Christ and Saviour

Isiah 43: 3 For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

Doing the same thing that you have just done i can show that Paul was Christ reincarnate

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;

Or there a thousands of Christ reincarnates if i do the same thing as you have done.

Colossians 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

This is all examples of how someone can do the same thing that you have just done and twist writings to fit in with his/her beliefs.

I can go through thousands of books and show you that there are a lot of similarities between Horus and Christ, you can find the same similarities in many other faiths and they all have books that they quote to prove themselves right.

However it is up to the individual to decide for himself in what he believes and what he doesnt believe personally i dont believe in any of the Khlyst evidence that you provide because it was a written by people who are just like twist storys to fit there agenda.

If you are truly saved and have found peace with Christ why are you still full of bitterness and hatred towards the molokans. If you didnt believe and left thats ok find another faith where you can find peace and serve God. And if you have found than there is no reason to keep spread your bitterness.

Did Isiah say he forgives sin or judges Salvation? Did Isiah say it was ok to murder children to get saved like Maxim did? Now you wouldn't be one to twist Scripture to suit your needs, would you? Have EG Klubniki's pyramid in heaven where one of the 8 or so named molokan gods lives. Stop inferring God of the Bible teaches untruths when your prestol perpetuates contrary beliefs. Climb your ladder to heaven in peace.

August 3, 2012

Did Isiah say he forgives sin or judges Salvation? Did Isiah say it was ok to murder children to get saved like Maxim did? Now you wouldn't be one to twist Scripture to suit your needs, would you? Have EG Klubniki's pyramid in heaven where one of the 8 or so named molokan gods lives. Stop inferring God of the Bible teaches untruths when your prestol perpetuates contrary beliefs. Climb your ladder to heaven in peace.

Why do you keep doing that? Uncle Bob already showed that "murder" was a mistranslation. And I've already debunked your Tartar fairy tales, yet you keep mentioning them over and over again.

I am certain that you are the biggest pretend Christian here.

Hi Bucket

Can you please post your info about debunking seeking the truth and guests tartar fairy tales please would like to read it

also i liked your point on salvation being eternal in the abraham sandwich thread i do agree with you can you please expand on this either here or in the abraham sandwich thread. thanks.

August 3, 2012

Seeking the truth or guest

Can you please let me know in what genuine historical book it is first mentioned that MGR merged molokans with khlysty?

I mean the first book that mentions that MGR merged molokans with khlysty.

August 3, 2012

This is all examples of how someone can do the same thing that you have just done and twist writings to fit in with his/her beliefs.

I can go through thousands of books and show you that there are a lot of similarities between Horus and Christ, you can find the same similarities in many other faiths and they all have books that they quote to prove themselves right.

However it is up to the individual to decide for himself in what he believes and what he doesnt believe personally i dont believe in any of the Khlyst evidence that you provide because it was a written by people who are just like twist storys to fit there agenda.

If you are truly saved and have found peace with Christ why are you still full of bitterness and hatred towards the molokans. If you didnt believe and left thats ok find another faith where you can find peace and serve God. And if you have found than there is no reason to keep spread your bitterness.

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5:11)

"rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;" (Titus 1:13)

Just following orders friend, if you don't like it, talk to my Boss.

Hi guest you quote

"And have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" Ephesians 5:11

Now you accept and preach the trinity doctrine so you are in fellowship with the trinity doctrine and those that first came up with the doctrine the catholic church. Here is a historical factual document that was written straight after the nicene council and about the trinity doctrine.

Secondly here is an extension from the orthodox response that most supports of the trinity doctrine seem to forget

(1.) The great and victorious Constantine Augustus to the bishops and laity:

Since Arius is an imitator of the wicked and the ungodly, it is only right that he should suffer the same dishonor as they. Porphyry, who was hostile to anyone who feared God, composed a book which transgressed against our religion, and has found a suitable reward: namely that he has been disgraced from that time onward, his reputation is completely terrible, and his ungodly writings have been destroyed. In the same way it seems appropriate that Arius and those of like mind with Arius should from now on be called Porphyrians, so that their name is taken from those whose ways they have imitated. (2.) In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offense, he shall be submitted for capital punishment.

And in another hand:

God will watch over you, beloved brothers

— Edict by Emperor Constantine against the Arians

source: http://www.fourthcentury.com/index.php/urkunde-33

Now all those that dont have "fellowship" with the trinity doctrine can be murdered or killed and this exactly what the catholic church did for over 1000years. Historians call this time in history the DARK AGES where the catholic church the same church you have fellowship with ruled over the world and murdered innocent people that didnt accept the lie of the trinity doctrine.

So my point and question to you is this.

You have "fellowship" with murderers and where does murder come from according to the Bible?

August 3, 2012

Seeking the truth or guest

Can you please let me know in what genuine historical book it is first mentioned that MGR merged molokans with khlysty?

I mean the first book that mentions that MGR merged molokans with khlysty.

It's in Maxim's Spirit and Life is where he makes the differenciation between Uklein's molokans and himself, along with all his Horus Falcon god Babylonian mythology teachings. Have you checked the back of a dollar bill yet, and compared it to what you see on page 604 where Klubnikin says God lives, another prestol fiblette. Buy the book, it is genuine history of the attempted extortion of Russian peasants during the 18th century.

August 4, 2012

Now all those that dont have "fellowship" with the trinity doctrine can be murdered or killed and this exactly what the catholic church did for over 1000years. Historians call this time in history the DARK AGES where the catholic church the same church you have fellowship with ruled over the world and murdered innocent people that didnt accept the lie of the trinity doctrine.

So my point and question to you is this.

You have "fellowship" with murderers and where does murder come from according to the Bible?

It comes from the heart of the son of perdition.

August 4, 2012

Your lie became an opinion after I called you out on it.

If you can show that Uncle Bob was wrong about the mistranslation of "kills", then by all means, do so. Otherwise, I can only assume at this point that you are intentionally spreading a lie.

What a sad, sad, little man you are.

Here ya go.

Your first quote from page 593 this is what it says in russian

9 И всяк ныне избиваяй таковых да будеть от Бога свять

Know copy the highlighted word and go to google translate and get it to translate the word from russian to english you will see that the translation will be beat and not kill. If you dont know russian that is exactly what that word means to beat and not to kill. So this is an error in translation.

Secondly if you are going to use this verse to prove that the S&L is false let me show you some passages from the Bible and if we apply the same logic that you are using that means that the Bible is false too. Please feel free to answer these verses.

bucket, In the Phineas account who did Phineas beat? "Beat" is not biblical, more church lies through Maxim, thank you Khlysti, for calling that to our attention.
Phineas did kill both lovers.

Your comments on this bucket?

August 6, 2012

Your lie became an opinion after I called you out on it.

If you can show that Uncle Bob was wrong about the mistranslation of "kills", then by all means, do so. Otherwise, I can only assume at this point that you are intentionally spreading a lie.

What a sad, sad, little man you are.

Here ya go.

Your first quote from page 593 this is what it says in russian

9 И всяк ныне избиваяй таковых да будеть от Бога свять

Know copy the highlighted word and go to google translate and get it to translate the word from russian to english you will see that the translation will be beat and not kill. If you dont know russian that is exactly what that word means to beat and not to kill. So this is an error in translation.

Secondly if you are going to use this verse to prove that the S&L is false let me show you some passages from the Bible and if we apply the same logic that you are using that means that the Bible is false too. Please feel free to answer these verses.

bucket, In the Phineas account who did Phineas beat? "Beat" is not biblical, more church lies through Maxim, thank you Khlysti, for calling that to our attention.
Phineas did kill both lovers.

Your comments on this bucket?

So now you are saying that it is "beat" and not "kill"? Then why did you continue to claim it said "kill" even after finding out about the mistranslation?

That makes you a liar in my book.

August 7, 2012

So now you are saying that it is "beat" and not "kill"? Then why did you continue to claim it said "kill" even after finding out about the mistranslation?

That makes you a liar in my book.

Khlysti, always drinking down stream from the herd. Bucket read it very carefully! The answer is, Phineas beat no one, Phineas did KILL. According to uncle bob the Russian text says Phineas "beat" yet the Bible account and the English Spirit and Life book differ from the Russian text.

According to what UB says, the Russian account can then only be, another PRESTOL LIE!

seeking_truth_1 · December 16, 2012

Another thread where cult members went POOF when facts were brought up

seeking_truth_1 · December 16, 2012

Only a fool can deny the obvious

Page 286.12 First edition, and 476.5-6 current edition.

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself sat upon the white steed and is personified as the King of Spirits and God to the Faithful."……. For this reason each believer of the Spirit of truth must quickly and before all accept him, our Maxim as the King personified and bow down at his feet with gifts;

December 28, 2012

Here is a fact still can't get access to this site after 6 months as my ip address is still blocked on my home computer. The facts I was providing must have hurt seeking.

February 9, 2013

Who ever you are . Sounds like to me that you are a klysti yourself that is trying to seek attention or a feeling of importance in your accusations made against maxim rudometkin. You really haven't done any research in your dates in regaurds to the klysti or even the area that the klysti derived from . There is a lot of ignorance and non factual information mostly your own opinion about how you are against molokans and there religion and your inventing ideas to make it sound like klysti are similar to new Israelites which is false . They are Complete opposites .

First of all you forgot to mention klysti were always self In flicked themselves in the name of Jesus that wiped there backs saying there seeking The Lord with wiping themselves or cutting themselves . If you were a historian you would know the basic history of trying to compare a maximist to a klysti you haven't even quoted anything from the klysti you quoted plenty out of spirit and life book you are full of hot air anyone with any smarts or brains would ignore your ignorance

seeking_truth_1 · February 9, 2013

Excerpt from "The Place Of Kabbalah In The Doctrine Of Russian Freemasonry" by KONSTANTIN BURMISTROV & MARIA ENDEL

An interesting mystical Illuminati society "The New Israel"
(or "The People of God") was founded in 1785 by a Polish nobleman Tadeusz (Thaddeus) Leszczyc-Grabianka (1740-1807) at Avignon and moved in the early 19th century to St. Petersburg.

The first Russians were incorporated into this organization at the end of 1780s (e.g. Vice Admiral S.I. Pleshcheyev and Prince N.V. Repnin) but
after his arrival in St. Petersburg (in August, 1805) Grabianka found numerous admirers among the aristocracy (meetings of the society took
place in the Marble Palace, in the rooms of the crown-prince Konstantin Pavlovich). Among the members were almost all eminent Russian
Rosicrucians; they predicted that ˜by God`s order, the Second and near Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ, and His glorious reign on the
earth` would occur in 1835.

A select part of the members of the society constituted a "Council of Prophets" and had "correspondence with heaven". The prophesies were accomplished in an ecstatic state, and the preparation to this experience required keeping the fast and solitude. Grabianka, the "King of the New Israel", is known to have had a keen interest in Jewish mysticism; he was a pupil of the abbÃ© Louis-Philibert de Morveau (Brumore) (?-1786), a famous mason, alchemist and kabbalist, ˜a wiseman "who had a voice [i.e. the gift of prophecy]" through the science of numbers, or Kabbalah`. M. Longinov suggested that ˜Grabianka had to read the Bible very assiduously, and studying it he expected to attain an understanding of the higher magic that was promised to him due to kabbalistic computations`. His prediction of the Second Advent was probably based on these computations".

Pg. 465 Bk. 9 Art. 15 Ver. 4

And this is why I, Maxim, personally became a true son of God eternally in His Spirit, and a new heir of all the world, or the progenitor of all the new Israel

Pg. 494 Bk. 10 Art. 5 Ver. 5-7

"For truly I [M.G.R.] lie not, but speak all of this according to the Spirit. Concerning this ecumenical spirit of the people shouts in agreement with me in every place. "Gracious is the passing nineteenth century!" During it the Lord God Almighty will Himself before our eyes execute His judgment upon the harlot and the beast who bears her. Then He will establish for us upon the land that which Adam and Eve once had in Paradise.."

Yet Scripture says

42 "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
43 "But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to
be broken into.
44 "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (Matthew 24:42-44)

Khlyst Evidence

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