The Bible's Teaching About The Trinity

[anakainosis 0]

The Bible's Teaching About The Trinity

 

 

James Montgomery Boice

 

 

 

The important point is not whether we can understand the Trinity, even with the help of illustrations, but whether we will believe what the Bible has to say about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and about their relationship to each other. What the Bible says may be summarized in the following five propositions:

 

1. There is but one living and true God who exists in three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. We have already looked at this truth in general. We will see it more fully when I talk about the full deity of the Son and Holy Spirit in books two and three in this volume. Here we note a plurality within the Godhead that is suggested even in the pages of the Old Testament, before the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ or the coming of the Holy Spirit upon all God's people. The plurality may be seen, in the first instance, in those passages in which God speaks about himself in the plural. One example is Genesis 1:26. "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.' " Another is Genesis 11:7. "Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language." A third is Isaiah 6:8. "And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?' " In other passages a heavenly being termed "the angel of the Lord" is, on the one hand identified with God and yet, on the other hand, is also distinguished from him. Thus, we read: "The angel of the LORD found her [Hagar] by a spring of water in the wilderness. . . . The angel of the LORD said to her, 'I will so greatly multiply your descendants that they cannot be numbered for multitude.' . . . So she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, 'Thou art a God of seeing' " (Gen. 16:7, 10, 13). An even stranger case is the appearance of the three angels to Abraham and Lot. The angels are sometimes spoken of as three and sometimes as one. Moreover, when they speak, it is the Lord who, we are told, speaks to Lot and Abraham (Gen. 18).

 

A final, startling passage is Proverbs 30:4. The prophet Agur is speaking about the nature of Almighty God, confessing his ignorance of him. "Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth?" Then comes, "What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!" In that day the prophet knew only the Father's name, the name Jehovah. Today we know that his Son's name is the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

2. The Lord Jesus Christ is fully divine, being the second person of the Godhead who became man. This, of course, is where the crux of debate on the Trinity is to be found; those who dislike the doctrine dislike it primarily because they are unwilling to give such an exalted position to "the man" Jesus.

 

Such reluctance is seen first in the teachings of Arius of Alexandria (died A.D. 336). Sabellius, mentioned earlier, tended to merge the persons of the Trinity, so that Father, Son and Holy Spirit were only temporary manifestations of the one God, assumed for the purposes of our redemption. Arius, whose main work was done just after Sabellius, went to the other extreme. He divided the persons of the Trinity so the Son and the Spirit became less than God the Father. According to Arius, the Son and Spirit were beings willed into existence by God for the purpose of acting as his agents in redemption. Thus, they were not eternal (as God is), and they were not fully divine. Arius used the word divine to describe them in some lesser sense than when applying it to the Father. In more recent centuries the same error has been espoused by Unitarians and by some modern cults.

 

But it is a great error. For if Christ is not fully divine, then our salvation is neither accomplished nor assured. No being less than God himself, however exalted, is able to bear the full punishment of the world's sin.

 

The deity of the Lord Jesus Christ is taught in many crucial passages. We read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (Jn. 1:1-2). That John 1:1-2 speaks of the Lord Jesus Christ is clear from John 1:14, in which we are told that the "Word" of verse 1 "became flesh and dwelt among us." Similarly, Paul writes, "Have this mind among yourselves, which you have in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross" (Phil. 2:5-8). The words "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself" do not mean that Jesus ceased to be fully God in the Incarnation, as some have maintained, but only that he temporarily laid aside his divine glory and dignity in order to live among us. We remember that it was during the days of his life here that Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (Jn. 10:30), and "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn. 14:9).

 

3. The Holy Spirit is fully divine. It is the Lord Jesus Christ who most clearly teaches the nature of the Holy Spirit. In the Gospel of John, Jesus compares the ministry of the coming Holy Spirit to his own ministry. "And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him" (Jn. 14:16-17). This understanding of the Holy Spirit is supported by the fact that distinctly divine attributes are ascribed to him: everlastingness (Heb. 9:14), omnipresence (Ps. 139:7-10), omniscience (1 Cor. 2:10-11), omnipotence (Lk. 1:35) and others.

 

4. While each is fully divine, the three persons of the Godhead are related to each other in a way that implies some differences. Thus, it is usually said in Scripture that the Father (not the Spirit) sent the Son into the world (Mk. 9:37; Mt. 10:40; Gal. 4:4), but that both the Father and the Son send the Spirit (Jn. 14:26; 15:26; 16:7). We don't know fully what such a description of relationships within the Trinity means. But usually it is said that the Son is subject to the Father, for the Father sent him, and that the Spirit is subject to both the Father and the Son, for he is sent into the world by both the Son and Father. However, we must remember that when we speak of subjection we do not mean inequality. Although related to each other in these ways, the members of the Godhead are nevertheless "the same in substance, equal in power and glory," as the Westminster Shorter Catechism says (Q. 6).

 

5. In the work of God the members of the Godhead work together. It is common among Christians to divide the work of God among the three persons, applying the work of creation to the Father, the work of redemption to the Son and the work of sanctification to the Holy Spirit. A more correct way of speaking is to say that each member of the Trinity cooperates in each work.

 

One example is the work of creation. It is said of God the Father, "Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of thy hands" (Ps. 102:25); and "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1). It is written of the Son, "For in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible" (Col. 1:16); and "All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made" (Jn. 1:3). It is written of the Holy Spirit, "The spirit of God has made me" (Job 33:4). In the same way, the Incarnation is shown to have been accomplished by the three persons of the Godhead working in unity, though only the Son became flesh (Lk. 1:35). At the baptism of the Lord all three were also present: the Son came up out of the water, the Spirit descended in the appearance of a dove and the voice of the Father was heard from heaven declaring, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased" (Mt. 3:16-17). All three persons were present in the atonement, as Hebrews 9:14 declares. "Christ... through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God." The resurrection of Christ is likewise attributed sometimes to the Father (Acts 2:32), sometimes to the Son (Jn. 10:17-18) and sometimes to the Holy Spirit (Rom. 1:4).

 

We are not surprised, therefore, that our salvation as a whole is also attributed to each of the three persons: chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood" (1 Pet. 1:2). Nor are we surprised that we are sent forth into all the world to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt. 28:19).

 

 

 

Threefold Redemption

 

Again let me note, although we can say meaningful things about the Trinity (on the basis of God's revelation of them), the Trinity is still unfathomable. We should be humble before the Trinity. Someone once asked ***** Webster, the orator, how a man of his intellect could believe in the Trinity. "How can a man of your mental caliber believe that three equals one?" his assailant chided. Webster replied, "I do not pretend fully to understand the arithmetic of heaven now." The doctrine of the Trinity does not mean that three equals one, of course, and Webster knew that. It means rather that God is three in one sense and one in another. But Webster's reply nevertheless showed a proper degree of creature humility. We believe the doctrine of the Trinity, not because we understand it, but because the Bible teaches it and because the Spirit himself witnesses within our heart that it is so.

[coffee 0]

Amen, and thank you for sharing this.

 

Our tendency as created beings is to describe and define God according to human parameters. Whenever we do this, we limit God according to our own human reasoning.

 

This is the first thing that is exposed when we give in to the Word of God, and accept it as the truth. Only then can the process begin, when we eventually yeild to humility, to the point where we are able to grasp and comprehend the Deity of the Trinity.

 

What a refreshing review of what is written in the Bible about this subject. May the Lord encourage you to remain steadfast and faithful in your ministry of God's Word.

 

coffee

[fountain-drink 0]

Ana and Coffee,

 

Where did you go to learn about the Trinity?

[coffee 0]

Tk1,

 

Regarding:

"Where did you go to learn about the Trinity?"

 

Although I probably "heard" similar sermons, with explanation from different ministers and evangelists on Christian radio, the first time that I truly understood about God being manifest to mankind in three separate identities, was from an simple article written many years ago by a friend of ours, the son of the minister in our Gervais Molokan Church, here in Oregon.

 

After that, as I continued to read the Scriptures and study the Word of God, the Holy Spirit has revealed more and more of this truth to me, from what is written in the Bible.

 

coffee

[Prophet 0]

Question for Coffee..

 

You state... in our Gervais Molokan Church, here in Oregon.

 

Your comment appears to be saying that you attend the Gervais church because you use the word "ours".

 

With all the heresy that you are trying to expose, how does your church react to your allegations, or do you even bring them up.

 

Thanks for reading.

[coffee 0]

Prophet,

 

Regarding "our Gervais Molokan Church, here in Oregon", Tk1 had asked me where did I go to learn about the Trinity. I did not "go" anywhere special.

 

When I first "understood" about the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, it was from a simple article that was written by the son of the minister of our Gervais Molokan Church, here in Oregon.

 

As far as I am aware, freedom exists for the Makcimisti in any of the Jumper churches to openly give honor to Rudometkin, including personal testimonies about how they believe that what is written in the Spirit and Life book, is the word of God.

 

However, because of the political intimidation of the Makcimisti elders throughout our brotherhood, this same equality and freedom of speech is not allowed the Bible based Molokan Christians to give personal testimonies, about why they reject Rudometkin's writings as heresy.

 

This is true for the Gervais Church, as it is for all of the other Jumper Churches, where there are Makcimisti who are in the position of influential elders.

 

Years ago, during one of the annual holidays, my father, who was a front row elder in Freeway Church, gave a sermon exposing part of Rudometkin's heresy, and sharing specific historical evidence about the false prophecies of Sokoloff and Rudometkin.

 

For this, he was put on unofficial "probation" by the Makcimisti elders in that church, who gave him the "silent treatment" for an extended period of time after that, because he dared to share some truth about their hero. Today, the former head singer of Freeway church, who instituted that "ban" against my father, is now a dominating elder in the Gervais church.

 

Except for maybe Buchnoff/Kochergan Church in Kerman, and Kern Avenue Church in Los Angeles, if something like this were to take place today, it would result in the same kind of reaction from the Makcimisti elders, as what happened to my father in Freeway Church years ago, no matter which Jumper Church you go to, Gervais included.

 

Hope this answers your question.

 

coffee

[Prophet 0]

Coffee,

 

So when you use the word "our" it does not mean that you attend that church, you refer to "our" as in "our area" our "part of the country" our "neck of the woods"

 

Sometimes when we don't cross our " T's " or **************** our " i's " the reader may get a different understanding.

 

Thanks

[coffee 0]

Prophet,

 

Tk1 asked me a simple question about where did I "go" to learn about the Trinity.

 

I answered the question, in the process hoping to convey the fact that many Molokans throughout our brotherhood are Bible based Christians, who indeed understand what is written in the Bible about the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Contrary to what some of the "politically correct" in our brotherhood would have others believe, I did not have to go "outside", in other words, I did not have to go to those dastardly "nyie nash" Christian bad people, in order for God to reveal Himself to me. I was introduced to this truth about the Trinity, the fact that the God of the Bible is triune in existence, by a fellow Molokan Christian.

 

1. Years ago, I read an article written by a man who happened to be the son of the Minister of our Gervais Molokan church, where the Minister and his wife, their son and daughter-in-law, and my wife and I were all members.

 

2. As a result of the Scriptures that were given to me in the article that I read, the Holy Spirit gave me further understanding about what is written in the Bible pertaining to the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Tk1's question had to do with the subject of the Trinity, not the proper use of the word "our", or how one goes about crossing their "t"s and dotting their "i"s.

 

After reading my response to Tk1 one more time, I cannot see where someone would be confused, or as you put it "may get a different understanding", about "where did I go" to learn about the Trinity.

[anakainosis 0]

Ana and Coffee,

 

Where did you go to learn about the Trinity?

 

Tk, I would like to say that what drove me to learn about the Trinity was the negative talk about the Trinitarians. About how they are false believers and have an unbiblical view of who God is.

 

The head besyednik of freeway church, who is Bill Samarin, will rant quite a bit about the ecumenical councils, Trinitarians and how they are all wrong in their beliefs. And usually what ever is fed to the people of the church, the general ideology of the people will be shaped by that influence. So from my personal experience the Trinity is not accepted by most in the church and people are told to stay away from those worldly ideas.

 

I, being a curious person, decided to look into and research this Trinitarian business. I looked into all the ecumenical councils to see what the hype was all about. The heresies of the early church that drove the leaders of that day to decide on the distinctions that had to be settled about whom Jesus is, was he just a man or was he divine? Who the Holy Spirit is, is there one God or three. These were some of the same questions I asked today, and they are the same ones asked throughout church history.

 

Even though the Trinitarian doctrine is not taught in our churches and people like the preacher of Samarin`s church, George Samarin will say, "We just don`t believe in what the councils have decided, who Jesus was¦" I have found evidence written in our early Molokan confessions of faith stating that our forefathers believed in the Holy Trinity.

 

Also, even though Maxim fumes over the councils because he says they are of the Devil, he still supports the concept of the Trinity, for he says,

 

"THE TRINITY, we profess in the Spirit of the one invisible Deity; regarding which the apostle John says, ˜The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit; these three are one.`" M.G.R. Book 5 14:9

 

When and why did these beliefs change recently in our Molokan churches? I think it is because of laziness and the lack of desire to know the truth that this ignorance is spreading.

 

The effort I put into the study of the Trinity, of how and why people believe in that doctrine has truly blessed my heart a hundred fold. All the books and resources I have gone through, that point back to scripture showing the revealed and mighty God in three persons, has given me this glorious image in my mind of who we worship. And yet I am blown away for my finite little mind can not contain the whole.

 

The Trinity is summed up in this, "The Trinity: God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God." (Wayne Grudem).

 

With this I conclude, after the research, I have become a believer in the Trinity doctrine. It is what is revealed - not in part - but throughout all of scripture.

 

I highly recommend every other curious soul to look into the Trinity doctrine, to see if it is so.

 

For further information check out, http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm

 

[fountain-drink 0]

Thanks Ana and Coffee,

 

It was a simple question. I did'nt mean to start anything negative. I was just curious how or where our people were going to learn. I guess sometimes my curiousity gets the better of me. If I offended anyone by my question, I am sorry. I didn't ask it to start a negative post.

[anakainosis 0]

Tk, there was nothing negative about your question or our responses. You asked a legitimate question and I answered it honestly. Please feel free to ask if there are more questions. We can both learn.

 

There shouldn`t be anything wrong with having curiosity, how else are we to all expand our knowledge.

[coffee 0]

Tk1,

 

Regarding:

 

It was a simple question. I did'nt mean to start anything negative. I was just curious how or where our people were going to learn. I guess sometimes my curiousity gets the better of me. If I offended anyone by my question, I am sorry. I didn't ask it to start a negative post.

 

Whatever "negative" resulted had nothing to do with your question. You said nothing wrong. I encourage you to please continue to participate. Sometimes "tangents" are introduced by others, which divert attention away from the original intent. I hope you are not intimidated, and that you will continue to share your thoughts, and ask questions.

 

coffee

[fountain-drink 0]

You know, the reason why I asked were you all were going to learn (or be taught) about the Trinity is because last year I was having a nice conversation with an old girl friend. (Not that she is actually old, we were good friends in our unmarried years). She is Molokan, married a Molokan and goes to Molokan church. Anyway, our conversation got really ugly. We were talking about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and I thought we were on the same page, but we werent. She was very heated and screamed at me that I will be going to HELL if I don't accept the Trinity!!!

 

Well....I personally would never tell anyone they are going to Hell regardless of what race or religion they choose to participate in. I was floored!! I never got around to asking her were she was going to be taught this, and that is why I posted that question.

 

So, my next question would be, is that how you believe? And maybe believe is not the proper word, is that how you would teach me about the Trinity? Now, I am not asking because I want to dispute you (I would never) nor do I wish to have a heated post over it. I am just curious and would like to know more about how you all became involved in how you believe.

 

Thanks!!

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Hello TK1

 

I would agree with you that there are sometimes much better ways to tell someone something than screaming at them...

 

Everyone, as is every situation, is different and I try to be lead by the Spirit of God as to address each encounter I have

 

Not like the "story" you may get from screaming people who really don't know what they believe and/or it changes from day to day

 

I can't imagine having a faith or belief in anything where there wasn't absolutes

 

I am just curious and would like to know more about how you all became involved in how you believe.

It was pretty simple... I asked questions of "elders" and didn't get any absolute answers that had a basis in Scripture (a.k.a The Bible). What I did get were mostly stories starting with "My grandfather told me..."

 

As a result I began doing my own research (seeking of truth)

 

I have used the illustration of 2 + 2 = 4 before

 

You believed, by faith, that was so when you grammer school teacher told you

 

You respect them as an adult and an authority on the subject

 

As you applied you faith in 2 + 2 = 4, when you gave that as an answer on a math test you got an "A"

 

As you grew older and began saving money, you went to the bank at some poiont and deposited 2 - 20 dollar bills and when you got the reciept back (or if you are old enough to remember bank books and having your book stamped), you had 40.00 in your account

 

You recongnized initially by faith the concept and then as you applied it, you saw it confirmed to be true

 

The Bible also has it's own set of absolutes

 

We all have missed the mark when it comes to being good enough as compared to what God requires of us

• "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23 NKJV)
  
• ""But we are all like an unclean [thing], And all our righteousnesses [are] like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6 NKJV)
  

The penalty for not being good enough is eternal separation from God

• "For the wages of sin [is] death, but the gift of God [is] eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23 NKJV)
  

There is a remedy

• "Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."" (John 3:3 NKJV)
  

The Good News (Gospel) provides a bridge (Salvation) to span the gap between man & God

• ""For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 NKJV)
  

You don't have to work your way into God's favor by trying to "be good" because that is humanly impossible apart from God enabling you to change.

 

You life is some sort of balance beam scale where you God stacks up your "good deeds" on one side of the scale and you "bad deeds" on the other and if there's more "good" than "bad" you get into Heaven

• "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV)
  

If you have this down, the Trinity will make a bunch more sense

 

I hope this clarifies the matter :D

[anakainosis 0]

You know, the reason why I asked were you all were going to learn (or be taught) about the Trinity is because last year I was having a nice conversation with an old girl friend. (Not that she is actually old, we were good friends in our unmarried years). She is Molokan, married a Molokan and goes to Molokan church. Anyway, our conversation got really ugly. We were talking about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and I thought we were on the same page, but we werent. She was very heated and screamed at me that I will be going to HELL if I don't accept the Trinity!!!

 

Well....I personally would never tell anyone they are going to Hell regardless of what race or religion they choose to participate in. I was floored!! I never got around to asking her were she was going to be taught this, and that is why I posted that question.

 

So, my next question would be, is that how you believe? And maybe believe is not the proper word, is that how you would teach me about the Trinity? Now, I am not asking because I want to dispute you (I would never) nor do I wish to have a heated post over it. I am just curious and would like to know more about how you all became involved in how you believe.

 

Thanks!!

 

Your story regarding your friend is a familiar one to me. The militant attitude expressed during an exchange of beliefs is quite frequent (like on forums). I myself have been guilty a number of times of a raised voice, trying to cram my view down the other persons face to no avail. I can say I acted ignorantly in unbelief like Paul claimed (1 Tim 1:13). I look back now and think what a waste of time and effort. I would like to think now that I have learned more patience; I am able to keep my head during heated debates, but I would be a fool to say I have mastered it! I still get stupid sometimes I would have to admit.

 

You ask, if someone doesn't believe in the Trinity, would I say or teach they are going to hell. I can't answer that with a simple yes or a no. Nowhere in scripture does it explicitly say, "If you don't believe in the Trinity, ˜you are going to burn'". But before I get into the "Trinity" part of the question I would like to share something on the teaching aspect and teaching what.

 

If I am to consider myself a teacher of scripture I would have to acknowledge Paul's words to Timothy.

 

"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. " (2 Timothy 4:1-2, NASB95)

 

In a sense both you and I are to take note of this charge from Paul. We are to be ready to preach the Word at any given time in our days, we are to build and rebuke with instruction. We are to do all this with great patience and in love. We are also told to hold fast in the faithful Word which is in accordance with sound (pure) doctrine or teaching (Titus 1:9; 2:7). Our speech should be fitting for pure doctrine (Titus 2:1).

 

Our pure doctrine is to be built from the testimonies put down in the scriptures.

 

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17, NASB95)

 

We are to be on guard against those who oppose sound biblical doctrine (2 Tim 4:15; 1 Tim 1:10-11) and reprove those who are in error (Titus 1:13-14), instructing them not to teach strange doctrines (1 Tim 1:3).

 

"If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, " (1 Timothy 6:3-4, NASB95)

 

We are to avoid foolish controversies but with gentleness correct those who are in opposition and patient when wronged, perhaps God will grant them repentance so they can come to their senses (2 Tim 2:23-26). In 2 Timothy 4:5 (NIV) we are told to keep our head in all situations and fulfill our ministry.

 

So now we know about our responsibilities regarding teaching and we know that we are to teach correct or pure doctrine that is in accordance with scripture.

 

Now regarding the Trinity, the crux of the disputes involves the deity of Christ. Not too many people will argue about the deity of the Father or the Holy Spirit. They have a problem with calling Jesus, God the Son. And I am sure many out there would agree that it is wrong to say someone will not make it to heaven if they don't believe in the deity of Jesus. You just need to believe in Him! And scripture does say it is through faith.

 

If someone chooses not to believe that Jesus is God and they say they have faith in a Jesus who was just a man with the Spirit of God in Him, there may be a problem. In Chapter 5 of John an event takes place where the Jews were going to stone Jesus. What was the reason why?

"For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. " (John 5:18, NASB95)

Now that we know Jesus is claiming to be equal with the Father, further along we have: ""For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. " (John 5:22-23, NASB95)

 

So Jesus Christ has said He is equal with the Father making Him fully God; then He said those who do not honor Him equally as God the Father, do not honor the Father who sent Him. So what does that say about someone who chooses not to worship the Son with equal honor and praise?

 

Where there is no worshiping in truth, there is no God.

 

Another place in scripture we have Christ claiming:

"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." " (John 8:58, NASB95)

 

What's significant about this particular passage is this "I AM" statement. If you can recall who made this same statement in the Old Testament:

"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ˜I AM has sent me to you.' " " (Exodus 3:14, NASB95)

 

This is more proof of His deity and sharing a pre-eternal state with the Father.

 

Now what does this passage speak to you?

"And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." " (John 8:23-24, NASB95)

 

So far Jesus Christ has claimed to be God, He is the "I Am" who spoke to Moses and He demands equal honor and praise that you would give the Father.

 

If one chooses not to recognize these pure doctrinal truths and teaches otherwise they will:

1. Not know God and have a fatal relationship with Him.

2. Die in their sins.

 

Therefore, they are not considered to be Christians.

 

Now I am not talking about everybody, but the ones who deliberately choose to deny this truth and teach others to do the same.

 

I know this will not be a well-liked answer, but scripture says what it says and any other doctrine is not the real truth. And I am personally responsible to let others know, whether they like it or not.

 

We are all called to grow in the knowledge (Col 1:10) of Jesus Christ and our desire should ever be increasing to know and love Him.

 

"Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. "(2 Peter 1:5-8, NASB95)

 

For further evidence of His deity check out the "God the Son" study in the "Trinity" thread.

[coffee 0]

Tk1,

 

Regarding:

 

You know, the reason why I asked were you all were going to learn (or be taught) about the Trinity is because last year I was having a nice conversation with an old girl friend. (Not that she is actually old, we were good friends in our unmarried years).  She is Molokan, married a Molokan and goes to Molokan church.

 

Anyway, our conversation got really ugly.  We were talking about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and I thought we were on the same page, but we werent.

 

She was very heated and screamed at me that I will be going to HELL if I don't accept the Trinity!!!

 

Well....I personally would never tell anyone they are going to Hell regardless of what race or religion they choose to participate in. I was floored!!

 

So, my next question would be, is that how you believe?  And maybe believe is not the proper word, is that how you would teach me about the Trinity?

 

I am just curious and would like to know more about how you all became involved in how you believe.

 

I don't know how true it is, but I remember being told about a man, an unbeliever, who went to church one Sunday and listened to the Pastor preach a "fire and brimstone" message, that if he did not accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior, then he would go to Hell when he died.

 

After the services were over, the man was troubled by this and the next day, he went to the local bookstore to buy a Bible. Over the next several months, he read the Bible from beginning to end, beginning with Genesis in the Old Testament and ending with the book of Revelation in the New Testament.

 

After he was finished reading the Bible, he went back to the Pastor and told him that he could not find anywhere in the Bible where God states specifically that if a person does not accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, then their soul is going to Hell after they die.

 

According to the story, both the Pastor and the unbeliever became frustrated because the Pastor couldn't show the man the exact words that he was looking for....

 

"If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, your soul is going to Hell when you die"....,

 

and the conversation developed into loud words, after which the man went away convinced that Christians are a bunch of hot-headed hypocrites.

 

Like that Pastor and the man who came to him, I too have never been able to find where in the Bible the exact words are written, "If you do not accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, your soul is going to Hell when you die", but I have heard this same statement, in one form or another, from many Christians, evangelists, Pastors, elders, Bible teachers, etc., both Molokan and non-Molokan alike.

 

I believe that even though the exact words are not found written in the Bible, the message is still true, not because Christians want it to be true, but because of the fact that if one does not actually "take" or "accept" the gift of eternal life, according to what is written in the Bible about the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, that "gift" is never able to be "transferred" from God to the recipient.

 

Just like any "gift", whether for a birthday, anniversary, or holiday occasion, even though it is offered, if the intended recipient does not "take" it, in order to "receive" it, the gift has never actually been "given".

 

If the sinner does not actually "take" the gift of eternal life from God, again, according to what is written in the Bible, then the transferrance of this gift has never been facilitated from God to the sinner, and the destiny of that poor soul is eternal separation from God, and Hell. I believe this truth is made very clear, according to what is written in the Bible.

 

Likewise, the truth about the Lord existing as a triune God is according to what is written in the Bible. The charge given to the followers of Jesus Christ is to share the truth of the Word of God, in order that "all nations" (Matthew 28:16-20) might have equal opportunity to receive that same gift of eternal life, which was given to those first disciples, who were with Jesus when He gave them that great commission.

 

The encouragement in the Scriptures, especially in the New Testament, is one of positive reinforcement, as in:

 

"Whosoever believes in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Savior, shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16, my paraphrase, not quoted literally from the Bible).

 

This same statement could have been stated as:

 

"Whoever doesn't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Savior is going to Hell."

 

In the same way, the Scriptures are filled with revelation from God that explain about the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, and about God existing in Trinity. Again, the positive reinforcement from Scripture is to "believe", so that we might "know" the One in whom we are to believe.

 

I believe this is why God gives us the warning in the Bible about Jesus rejecting those who "use" His name, those who truly believe that they "know" the Lord Jesus Christ, and truly believe they are following Him, but who are individuals the Lord does not know (Luke 13:22-30), and in fact has never known (Matthew 7:21-23).

 

A good friend of mine who passed away used to ask this question:

 

"Which version of Jesus do you believe in?....The One written about in the Bible, Who is described as being part of the triune Godhead?....or some other version of Jesus, which denies and ignores this very crucial Biblical truth?

 

I believe it is important that I "know" which Jesus I am worshipping, so that when the time comes, Christ will be able to say that He most definitely "knows" me. For me personally, this includes knowing what is written in the Bible about Jesus as the Deity that He is (I AM), as part of the Trinity that you and your girlfriend were discussing.

 

Whether or not I would be successful, this is how I would want to share with you about the Trinity.

 

coffee

[fountain-drink 0]

Seeking, Anakainosis and Coffee, I want to thank you for such wonderful posts!! Thank you for taking time out to share with me. It is obvious you all love the Lord. May God bless you, I enjoyed reading your posts!! ;)

[seeking_truth_1 0]

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