Molokans Are Trinitarians According To The S & L

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Taken From an earlier post by anakanoisis

 

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Again, here is proof, even from their own book, their Bible manual, their fountain of deeper spiritual teaching. (p. 781-783 Spirit & Life. Second edition 2005)

 

“A petition submitted by the Molokans to the Sovereign Emperor, Alexander Pavlovich, July 12 1805.

 

“(Petro) Zhuavtsov stood in the middle of the council facing the Emperor and began to speak. We believe and confess that God is one in essence, in three features, which is triune and tri-hypostasis. God did not evolve, but He exists of Himself and sustains all in Himself. He is eternal and is an unattainable spirit; God dwells in inaccessible light. He sees all, and directs all. We believe that God of the Tri-hypostasis solely with His word created all out of nothing; heaven and earth….But the tri-hypostasis God, seeing his destitution and groaning and tears for his loss of bliss, in His own kind heart promised to send him from the seed of the woman the Savior of the world, who will crush the head of the serpent, his deceiver, and return to him again the image and likeness of God. This Savior of the world was none other than the only born Son of God, …who descended to earth…He was made flesh through the immaculate Virgin Mary, becoming a God-man, and lived publicly among humanity.”

[KnowYourReligion? 0]

 

 

[anakainosis 0]

Many do not know what the True Spiritual Christian Molokan Jumpers really should believe about the Trinity. Why?

 

They really do not know what they should believe. The ones who are more vocal in the community are usually more ignorant of what their own presupposed beliefs are or should be, yet they continue to teach others their own short-sighted opinions of what even the Prygun Molokans should believe.

 

What remains to be quite comical to me is that we have pro SnL’rs degrading the Trinity Doctrine in church and on the forums. But if they would only know their own confession standards as printed in a little booklet by ***** ***************** back in 1988, called “Confession of Faith of The Spiritual Christian Molokan Jumpers” they would know how ridiculous their tantrums are.

 

This booklet states its purpose as:

 

“This booklet is provided to the Molokans as a short though precise volume of the biblical interpretations which establish the beliefs of the Community of the Spiritual Christian Molokan Jumpers.” - The Publisher, ***** H. *****************

 

Really? Why?

 

Because it was “The choice of the elders to utilize Rudometkin as the primary basis for developing a church-community was based on the information available regarding him pertaining to prophesy, biblical knowledge, character, moral and ethical conduct, and community success. In this regard the interpretation of the bible taught among the Molokan Jumpers churches is that compiled by Rudometkin, along with the church services and community format.” - The Publisher

 

So the Rudometkinites decided to base their faith on their hero and prophet Maxim Rudometkin’s theology.

 

Are they to be professing Trinitarians?

 

According to the confession they’re to believe “The trinity we profess in the Spirit of the one invisible Deity; regarding which the holy apostle John says, ‘The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit; these three are one”

 

Also to ask, what does their confession say who the Word is?

 

“Jesus Christ is Himself the Word of God, Creator of all the ages ....”

 

But, they will continue to teach otherwise not ably to wrap their minds around the concept.

 

 

The booklet also states in the Summary of Bible Teachings of The Forefathers that:

 

“They affirmed the Godhead in three persons . . . ”

 

These terms like “Trinity” and “Godhead” should be common terminology amongst the Maximist or those who are staunch Los Angeles-based Molokans.

 

This not my opinion, I’m only sharing what their own elders chose to promote not too long ago. This is the wish of the publisher of this material not my own.

 

“It is to our greatest advantage today, in the witness of the above history and the continuation of the Molokan jumpers community that we accept the efforts of previous generations and preachers and martyrs along with the labors and faith of those who established this community in America.” -The Publisher

 

Fourvetta, prophet, fresno, red October, somebody and nobody, and fountain drink should continue their community’s teaching.

[coffee 0]

.

 

What I find more interesting, is the two booker stubborn fights against the trinity. They claim they uphold the same belief of their ancestors when in fact they do not!

 

Molokans are Trinitarians!

 

Again, here is proof, even from their own book, their Bible manual, their fountain of deeper spiritual teaching. (p. 781-783 Spirit & Life. Second edition 2005) - Anakainosis, Post # 62, Is Jesus God?

 

We often hear the claim made by today's Rudometkinite zealots that the term "Trinity", in reference to the Triune existence of God, was allegedly "never" taught among the early followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Rudometkinites religiously uphold their theory that the early Christians allegedly "never" used this term until after the first Ecumenical Council in Nicea, 325 AD.

 

We continually hear from those who are today's devout followers of Rudometkin's heresies in the Spirit and Life book, that the "concept" of Jesus being God, manifest in human flesh, was an alleged "new teaching" which was allegedly "never" found among those in the early Christian Church, but was something that allegedly "originated" with the Ecumenical Councils.

 

Contrary to what today's crop of Rudometkinites want to believe, their heresy is not based on historical truth.

 

To quote an article in the Christian History magazine, written last year by D.H. Williams, Professor of Historical Theology at Baylor University, and author of The Free Church and the Early Church: Essays in Bridging the Historical and Theological Divide:

 

In a letter written [to] his congregation just after the close of the Nicene council, Eusebius of Caesarea explained that though he was reluctant to sign the Nicene creed, he would never have done so had that formula contradicted the faith of the Caesarean church.

 

After making every inquiry into the meaning of the creed's wording, Eusebius wrote, "it appeared to us to coincide with what we ourselves have professed in the faith which we have previously preached."

 

 

In addition to how today's young Rudometkinite zealots deny the Deity of Jesus, it is interesting to observe how they also avoid and ignore the historical documentation that exists, which proves that the early Christian church not only accepted and believed, but also taught that the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth as God in human flesh.

 

The early followers of the Lord Jesus Christ were those who accepted and followed the teachings of Christ's Apostles. The earliest known existing manuscripts of the New Testament Scriptures predate the emperor Constantine and the first Ecumenical Council by almost two centuries.

 

These documents are virtually identical in content, and context, as that which the present day followers of the Lord Jesus Christ revere today as the written Word of God, the Holy Scriptures.

 

This includes the Scriptures that are recorded in John 1:1-18 and John 20:24-29, as well as the Scriptures that are recorded in Romans 9:1-5, in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, in Colossians 1:15-23 and in Hebrews 1:7-9, which were all written by the Apostles of Jesus during the first century AD, and which all exist in manuscripts that are dated from as early as 180-200 AD.

 

In other words, the historical record itself proves that the early Christian Church believed in the Deity of Jesus long before the emperor Constantine was even born, long before the concept of the Ecumenical Councils was ever conceived.

 

This means that contrary to the excuse commonly heard from today's Rudometkinites, it is literally impossible for Constantine and the bishops who attended the Ecumenical Councils to have ever had any such alleged "influence" on the existing Biblical text, which testifies that the Lord Jesus Christ is indeed God in human flesh.

 

In spite of the overwhelming documentation in existence, as historical evidence, the current crop of Rudometkinites continues to recycle the name of Constantine, as if the Ecumenical Councils were somehow the first ones to ever teach that the Lord Jesus Christ is God in human flesh.

 

It is possible that today's Rudometkinite zealots lack knowledge about the historical truth because in order to discover the truth, it involves what I consider to be "dry" reading. In today's modern world, with the ease and convenience of internet access, it is doubtful that most young people even know what the inside of a library looks like.

 

Historical research is tiresome, primarily because it requires a lot of reading, which demands discipline and steadfast perseverance. Being "steadfast" is something which our original Bible based Christian Molokan forefathers were historically well known for.

 

Following are excerpts from writings that were in existence long before any of Constantine's Ecumenical Councils ever came into existence. This information is available in the Religious History section at any main library, in every major city within the United States of America.

 

There is no excuse for today's Rudometkinite zealots not to know this information, which has all been historically documented, from sources that all predate the initial Ecumenical Council of Nicea, which convened in 325 AD.

 

 

From an evangelist named Lactantius, in 307 AD:

 

But when we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father. (Lactantius, Divine Institutes, 4:28-29)

 

 

From a preacher named Methodius, in 305 AD:

 

For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one.

 

Whence also, with one and the same adoration, we worship the one Deity in three Persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreated, without end, and to which there is no successor.

 

For neither will the Father ever cease to be the Father, nor again the Son to be the Son and King, nor the Holy Spirit to be what in substance and personality He is.

 

For nothing of the Trinity will suffer diminution, either in respect of eternity, or of communion, or of sovereignty. (Methodius, Oration on the Psalms, 5)

 

 

From the theologian named Thaumaturgus, who is often referred to in history as "Gregory, the miracle worker", in 262 AD:

 

But if they say, "How can there be three Persons, and how but one Divinity?", we shall make this reply:

 

That there are indeed three persons, inasmuch as there is one person of God the Father, and one of the Lord the Son, and one of the Holy Spirit; and yet that there is but one Divinity, inasmuch as....

 

there is one substance in the Trinity (Thaumaturgus, A Sectional Confession of Faith, 14).

 

 

As written by Dionysius, in 262 AD:

 

Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were, I mean the omnipotent God of the universe....

 

It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [to say that Jesus was “created”]....

 

But if [we are to assume that] the Son came into being, [we would have to assume that] there was a time when these attributes [of the Trinity] did not exist; and, consequently, [we would have to assume that] there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd (Letters of Dionysius, to Bishop Dionysius of Alexandria, 1-2).

 

 

Tertullian, in his debate against Praxeas, wrote in 200 AD:

 

We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation....

 

bringing about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 156-7)

 

 

From Irenaeus, in 180 AD:

 

For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the Earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and Earth and sea and all that is in them;

 

and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation;

 

and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the Resurrection from the dead, and the bodily Ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to re-establish all things;

 

and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on Earth and under the earth.... (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 10, Section 1)

 

 

According to Theophilus of Antioch, in 180 AD:

 

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man. (180 AD, Theophilus of Antioch to Autolycus, Chapter 15, Of the Fourth Day, 2:15)

 

 

From Athenagoras, an explanation about what the early followers of the Lord Jesus Christ believed, in 160 AD:

 

They hold the Father to be God, and the Son [to be] God, and the Holy Spirit [to be God], and declare their union [existing as the same One God] and their distinction [existing as three distinct persons] in order.... (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, 10.3)

 

 

From Ignatius, in 110 AD:

 

Ignatius, also called Theophorus, sends heartiest good wishes for unalloyed joy in Jesus Christ to the Church at Ephesus in Asia; a church deserving of felicitation, blessed, as she is, with greatness through the fullness of God the Father; predestined, before time was, to be - to her abiding and unchanging glory - forever united and chosen, through real suffering, by the will of the Father and Jesus Christ our God. (Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, 1)

 

 

Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the transcendent Majesty of the Most High Father and of Jesus Christ, His only Son; the church by the will of Him who willed all things that exist, beloved and illuminated through the faith and love of Jesus Christ our God;

 

Heartiest good wishes for unimpaired joy in Jesus Christ our God, to those who are united in flesh and spirit by every commandment of His; who imperturbably enjoy the full measure of God's grace and have every foreign stain filtered out of them. (Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, 1)

 

 

 

Contrary to the heretical messages coming from today's vocal young Rudometkinites, the term describing God as "the Trinity" was common among those in the early Christian Church that existed previous to the Emperor Constantine and the Ecumenical Councils.

 

The Scriptural truth that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, manifest in human flesh, is what Bible based Christians have accepted and believed from the very first century AD. It is what was taught by Christ's Apostles, those very eyewitnesses who observed and lived with Jesus Himself, when He walked the earth.

 

As Anakainosis has illustrated, it is the same truth that our Bible based Christian Molokan forefathers believed for at least 100 years before Rudometkin began to blend the extra-Biblical theology of his Khlysty forefathers, with what was already in existence as the belief system practiced by those who were known by the sectarian identity of "Molokan".

 

As has been thoroughly demonstrated, the Rudometkinites lack credibility for any of their theories, yet because they maintain the "positions" in the churches which control the political decisions made by "the elders", they continue to perpetuate the heresies in the Spirit and Life book as if they are indeed fact.

 

And, when confronted with serious discrepancies and contradictions between what Rudometkin wrote, versus historical and Biblical truth, all that needs to happen among the loyal American born and English speaking Rudometkinites is for Danny ***************** to print a "new" edition of something which he has published previously, and make the desired changes.

 

Regarding Danny's little blue booklet entitled Confession of Faith of the Spiritual Christian Molokan Jumpers, look for Danny to publish a reprint, in which all references to the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, as well as any mention of "the Trinity" are omitted, after which Danny can then tell us once again, "I am not aware of any changes".

 

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[seeking_truth_1 0]

Coffee:

 

So the "ecumenical 666" rhetoric you hear so often from the "2 book, deny the

Deity of Jesus" types has no basis in history

 

I did a brief study of Ignatius of Antioch (a.k.a. St. Ignatius of Antioch also Theophorus )

 

He was the earliest of the group you mentioned in your post

 

As you stated, this person wrote his view affirming the Trinity in 110AD a couple of hundred years before the Ecumenical Councils

 

He is revered as one of the early Church leaders by the Catholic, Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches

 

He was most likely a disciple of Peter and John

 

Both Peter and John would have affirmed the Deity of Jesus seeing as they were disciples of Jesus

 

So the next time a 2 book molokan cannot support their skewed doctrine and cries "ecumenical 666" to try and get out of explaining, they'll now need to use another dodge

[coffee 0]

.

 

Seeking Truth,

 

Regarding:

 

So the "ecumenical 666" rhetoric you hear so often from the "2 book, deny the Deity of Jesus" types has no basis in history

 

So the next time a 2 book molokan cannot support their skewed doctrine and cries "ecumenical 666" to try and get out of explaining, they'll now need to use another dodge

 

It has been my experience that those who first begin their religious life convinced that their theology, as taught by Rudometkin in the Spirit and Life book, has been specially given to Rudometkin's "New Israel" followers, by inspiration of "the spirit"....

 

....who thereafter have been taught to interpret everything that has to do with their own personal belief system, based on those same heresies, are not able to humble themselves to the point of having "the eyes of their heart" enlightened, in order to accept the truth, be it Scriptural truth, or historical truth.

 

Those who are students of the Bible, when carefully reading Rudometkin's writings in the Spirit and Life book, immediately find that Rudometkin was a crude man, who was Biblically illiterate, as evidenced by the countless times that he misquotes the Scriptures, throughout his writings.

 

Based on what he wrote, it is obvious that Rudometkin did not comprehend the true context of what is written in the Bible, but instead twisted Scripture after Scripture out of context, exposing himself in the process, that he was not competent to rightly handle the word of Truth.

 

We see a good example of this whenever fourvetta misquotes the Scriptures, often "quoting" Rudometkin as if it were the very Word of God itself, and twisting Scripture out of context, in his effort to share his personal beliefs, which are founded on Rudometkin's heresies that are written in the Spirit and Life book.

 

Without a solid foundation on the written Word of God, but filled with the arrogant high mindedness that is a byproduct of the spiritual mysticism of his Khlysty forefathers, Rudometkin went to his grave convinced that what he wrote to his followers were "new revelations", inspired by a "new spirit", about a "new pathway" to God.

 

I believe that today's Rudometkinites are resourceful enough that they will find a way to "fine tune" their belief system, but I have no confidence that any of them will ever conform to the Biblical truth that the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth as God in human flesh, according to how Bible based Christians have always believed, as was taught by Christ's Apostles.

 

For instance, among some of the Rudometkinites, there is consent that Jesus was not "created", as in a "created being", and the distinction is made that Christ was "begotten" instead. Just like so many of the heresies that fourvetta recycles over and over again, we will continue to hear from the Rudometkinites, some version of the following statement:

 

Christ was begotten from the Father, just as a son is of the father and the father is in the son.

 

However, the subtle difference between this statement and the words that Jesus spoke are substantial and significant. Christ did not say that He is "OF" the Father, as if to say in contrast to the distiction that the Father is "IN" the Son.

 

From the Bible:

 

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me... (John 14:11)

 

 

Christ is testifying that He is One with the Father, that He, as God the Son, is "IN" the Father, and likewise, God the Father is "IN" the Son. In other words, they are both the same God. The same God Who is the Father, is the same God Who is the Son, and vice versa.

 

For this, I really appreciate the diagram that Know Your Religion posted earlier. What an excellent "explanation" of God, in human terminology.

 

The above is just one small example of how I believe the Rudometkinites will "redefine" their belief statement, with the stipulation that according to how they still believe, Christ was "begotten", but the "begetting" took place in heaven, not on earth. In other words, the Rudometkinites will continue to believe that Jesus had a "beginning" in heaven, and that he is not co-eternal with God the Father.

 

 

From a preacher named Methodius, in 305 AD, well before any alleged "perversion" of Bible based Christian theology, which the Rudometkinites claim took place at the time of the Emperor Constantine and the Ecumenical Councils, beginning in 325 AD:

 

For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one.

 

Whence also, with one and the same adoration, we worship the one Deity in three Persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreated, without end, and to which there is no successor.

 

For neither will the Father ever cease to be the Father, nor again the Son to be the Son and King, nor the Holy Spirit to be what in substance and personality He is.

 

For nothing of the Trinity will suffer diminution, either in respect of eternity, or of communion, or of sovereignty. (Methodius, Oration on the Psalms, 5)

 

 

Yes, according to what is written in the Bible, according to the historical record, and according to what the true followers of the Lord Jesus Christ have taught from the beginning of the Christian Church in the first century AD, God exists in Trinity, as ONE Triune God, and the physical person, Jesus Christ, is the same preincarnate, pre-existing, without beginning, Word of God, Who was "begotten" at the precise moment that God became human flesh, when He became the only begotten Son of God.

 

And this is what our true Bible based Christian Molokan forefathers believed, and have believed for centuries.

 

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John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" NKJV

Enough said?

 

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[seeking_truth_1 0]

So, which is it???

 

Is it ecumenical 666 trinitarian rant or is it what is published in the petition to Emperor Alexander Pavlovich, July 12 1805?

 

Taken From an earlier post by anakanoisis

 

*********************************************************

 

Again, here is proof, even from their own book, their Bible manual, their fountain of deeper spiritual teaching. (p. 781-783 Spirit & Life. Second edition 2005)

 

A petition submitted by the Molokans to the Sovereign Emperor, Alexander Pavlovich, July 12 1805.

 

(Petro) Zhuavtsov stood in the middle of the council facing the Emperor and began to speak. We believe and confess that God is one in essence, in three features, which is triune and tri-hypostasis. God did not evolve, but He exists of Himself and sustains all in Himself. He is eternal and is an unattainable spirit; God dwells in inaccessible light. He sees all, and directs all. We believe that God of the Tri-hypostasis solely with His word created all out of nothing; heaven and earth�. But the tri-hypostasis God, seeing his destitution and groaning and tears for his loss of bliss, in His own kind heart promised to send him from the seed of the woman the Savior of the world, who will crush the head of the serpent, his deceiver, and return to him again the image and likeness of God. This Savior of the world was none other than the only born Son of God, who descended to earth He was made flesh through the immaculate Virgin Mary, becoming a God-man, and lived publicly among humanity.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

bringing it to the top

[seeking_truth_1 0]

When you say

It has been my experience that those who first begin their religious life convinced that their theology, as taught by Rudometkin in the Spirit and Life book, has been specially given to Rudometkin's "New Israel" followers, by inspiration of "the spirit"....

 

I'm brought back to this passage in Scripture

 

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (2Peter 2:19-21 NKJV)

 

It would then be impossible (from a Biblical standpoint) that only mgr would have this "special" revelation

 

 

 

It has been my experience that those who first begin their religious life convinced that their theology, as taught by Rudometkin in the Spirit and Life book, has been specially given to Rudometkin's "New Israel" followers, by inspiration of "the spirit"....

 

....who thereafter have been taught to interpret everything that has to do with their own personal belief system, based on those same heresies, are not able to humble themselves to the point of having "the eyes of their heart" enlightened, in order to accept the truth, be it Scriptural truth, or historical truth.

 

Those who are students of the Bible, when carefully reading Rudometkin's writings in the Spirit and Life book, immediately find that Rudometkin was a crude man, who was Biblically illiterate, as evidenced by the countless times that he misquotes the Scriptures, throughout his writings.

[Disciple 0]

There is one God, not two, not three, one.

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: "

 

God was manifest in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

 

The fullness of the Godhead (The Deity, God) dwells in Christ

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

 

Jesus and God The Father are one, not as one, not sorta one, they are one.

John 10:30 " I and my Father are one."

 

A prophecy of Christ

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. "

 

God the Father calls The Son God

Hebrews 1:7 " But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

 

God was crucified

MGR 7:11:8 "and distorting the understanding for one another concerning truth and the unity of belief in God crucified."

 

MGR 7:11:9 "Or have they never read the Holy Scriptures, which throughout and forever say that God crucified is love, not enmity, manifestly by Himself reconciling everyone into one?"

 

The Deity (God) is indivisible (inseparable)

MGR 1:6:1 "And this is why this inscrutable twosome everywhere became equated in Their indivisible Deity forever, like a father and an obedient son."

 

Father Son and Holy Spirit are one. They are one.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

 

Also here. And they are pre-eternal, have always existed.

MGR 7:2:6 "Therefore their indivisible and pre-eternal Deity is thus named: The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit; these three are one."

 

Jesus is the Creator, lawgiver on sinai, and The Holy one of Israel

MGR 5:12:1 "Jesus Christ is Himself the Word of God, Creator of all the ages and the Giver of the strict law. He, the selfsame, is the Holy One of Israel

 

Isaiah 30:15 "For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel..."

 

Apostle Thomas called him God

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

 

There is one God.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God."

[steadfast 0]

God was crucified

MGR 7:11:8 "and distorting the understanding for one another concerning truth and the unity of belief in God crucified."

 

MGR 7:11:9 "Or have they never read the Holy Scriptures, which throughout and forever say that God crucified is love, not enmity, manifestly by Himself reconciling everyone into one?"

 

The Deity (God) is indivisible (inseparable)

MGR 1:6:1 "And this is why this inscrutable twosome everywhere became equated in Their indivisible Deity forever, like a father and an obedient son."

 

Also here. And they are pre-eternal, have always existed.

MGR 7:2:6 "Therefore their indivisible and pre-eternal Deity is thus named: The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit; these three are one."

 

Jesus is the Creator, lawgiver on sinai, and The Holy one of Israel

MGR 5:12:1 "Jesus Christ is Himself the Word of God, Creator of all the ages and the Giver of the strict law. He, the selfsame, is the Holy One of Israel

I see you continue to cooperate with the alternate christ, he still has a place of authority in your heart, you like your father and your remaining grandfather are still dealing with your personal demons (evil spirits).

[Disciple 0]

I see you continue to cooperate with the alternate christ, he still has a place of authority in your heart, you like your father and your remaining grandfather are still dealing with your personal demons (evil spirits).

 

Actually I wasn't trying to convince you of the deity of Christ because I am sure you believe it already. But in using the book used by many who deny Him, I think I may be able to show them the true Christ. Jesus the one and only.

 

This was originally written for those who believe every word in the SnL is the inspired Word of God. So in order to

[steadfast 0]

I see you continue to cooperate with the alternate christ, he still has a place of authority in your heart, you like your father and your remaining grandfather are still dealing with your personal demons (evil spirits).

 

Actually I wasn't trying to convince you of the deity of Christ because I am sure you believe it already. But in using the book used by many who deny Him, I think I may be able to show them the true Christ. Jesus the one and only.

 

This was originally written for those who believe every word in the SnL is the inspired Word of God. So in order to

Oh! Uh Huh! Sure! Right!...That fixes everything, give authority to anything, as long as you mix in a little truth with it.

 

Does your family church in the Pacific Northwest display blasphemies of the Holy Spirit the S&L on its alter? The Bible calls ones who abide in blasphemies, it calls them blasphemers, is the Bible wrong?

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Disciple:

 

Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

 

Do you adhere to the notion that the s&l is Scripture?

 

Is that why you cite passages from it?

 

Thank you

 

I see you continue to cooperate with the alternate christ, he still has a place of authority in your heart, you like your father and your remaining grandfather are still dealing with your personal demons (evil spirits).

 

Actually I wasn't trying to convince you of the deity of Christ because I am sure you believe it already. But in using the book used by many who deny Him, I think I may be able to show them the true Christ. Jesus the one and only.

 

This was originally written for those who believe every word in the SnL is the inspired Word of God. So in order to

[Disciple 0]

I see you continue to cooperate with the alternate christ, he still has a place of authority in your heart, you like your father and your remaining grandfather are still dealing with your personal demons (evil spirits).

Actually I wasn't trying to convince you of the deity of Christ because I am sure you believe it already. But in using 'the book' used by many who deny Him, I think I may be able to show them the true Christ. Jesus the one and only.

 

This was originally written for those who believe every word in the SnL is the inspired Word of God. So in order to get them to understand the truth about "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" (Titus 2:13), it seems to me that it would be useful to speak their language in order to "be all things to all men." Also I understand that in doing so, one must be careful in using the SnL.

 

Just as we can be sure that the apostle Paul was careful not to deceive the brethren when he followed the cleansing ritual in Acts 21. He knew he was free from the law as he wrote, but for their weakness he followed these things to show them the truth that is in Christ Jesus. What say thee, steadfast?

 

P.S. Look at the title of this thread.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Disciple

[Disciple 0]

Disciple:

 

Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

 

Do you adhere to the notion that the s&l is Scripture?

 

Is that why you cite passages from it?

 

Thank you

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

No.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Thank you so very much for a straight forward answer, may I say Brother in the Lord!

 

When I ask people straight forward questions and get veiled answers (present company excluded), it calls into their question their "faith"

 

Why can't someone directly answer a question if they really know the Truth

 

Again, thank you

 

Disciple:

 

Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

 

Do you adhere to the notion that the s&l is Scripture?

 

Is that why you cite passages from it?

 

Thank you

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

No.

[GoodDay 0]

Amen!!! Hallelujah!!!

 

 

 

 

Thank you so very much for a straight forward answer, may I say Brother in the Lord!

 

When I ask people straight forward questions and get veiled answers (present company excluded), it calls into their question their "faith"

 

Why can't someone directly answer a question if they really know the Truth

 

Again, thank you

 

Disciple:

 

Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

 

Do you adhere to the notion that the s&l is Scripture?

 

Is that why you cite passages from it?

 

Thank you

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

No.

[GoodDay 0]

Amen!!! Hallelujah!!!

 

 

 

 

Thank you so very much for a straight forward answer, may I say Brother in the Lord!

 

When I ask people straight forward questions and get veiled answers (present company excluded), it calls into their question their "faith"

 

Why can't someone directly answer a question if they really know the Truth

 

Again, thank you

 

Disciple:

 

Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

 

Do you adhere to the notion that the s&l is Scripture?

 

Is that why you cite passages from it?

 

Thank you

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

No.

[GoodDay 0]

Amen!!! Hallelujah!!!

 

 

Disciple:

 

Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

 

Do you adhere to the notion that the s&l is Scripture?

 

Is that why you cite passages from it?

 

Thank you

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

No.

[GoodDay 0]

Beautiful, Awesome, strong and Spiritual Post!!!!

 

My heart coudn't be more filled with joy at this very moment!! :-)

 

Paul William Orloff

 

 

There is one God, not two, not three, one.

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: "

 

God was manifest in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

 

The fullness of the Godhead (The Deity, God) dwells in Christ

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

 

Jesus and God The Father are one, not as one, not sorta one, they are one.

John 10:30 " I and my Father are one."

 

A prophecy of Christ

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. "

 

God the Father calls The Son God

Hebrews 1:7 " But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

 

God was crucified

MGR 7:11:8 "and distorting the understanding for one another concerning truth and the unity of belief in God crucified."

 

MGR 7:11:9 "Or have they never read the Holy Scriptures, which throughout and forever say that God crucified is love, not enmity, manifestly by Himself reconciling everyone into one?"

 

The Deity (God) is indivisible (inseparable)

MGR 1:6:1 "And this is why this inscrutable twosome everywhere became equated in Their indivisible Deity forever, like a father and an obedient son."

 

Father Son and Holy Spirit are one. They are one.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

 

Also here. And they are pre-eternal, have always existed.

MGR 7:2:6 "Therefore their indivisible and pre-eternal Deity is thus named: The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit; these three are one."

 

Jesus is the Creator, lawgiver on sinai, and The Holy one of Israel

MGR 5:12:1 "Jesus Christ is Himself the Word of God, Creator of all the ages and the Giver of the strict law. He, the selfsame, is the Holy One of Israel

 

Isaiah 30:15 "For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel..."

 

Apostle Thomas called him God

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

 

There is one God.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God."

[lastinline 0]

'Disciple' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:45 AM' post='16431'

 

Apostle Thomas called him God

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

 

There is one God.

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God."

 

Progress, Praise God!

 

May I add,

Matthew 22: 34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." 38 This is the first and great commandment.

 

Матфея 22: 34 А фарисеи, услышав, что Он привел саддукеев в молчание, собрались вместе. 35 И один из них, законник, искушая Его, спросил, говоря: 36 Учитель! какая наибольшая заповедь в законе? 37 Иисус сказал ему: возлюби Господа Бога твоего всем сердцем твоим и всею душею твоею и всем разумением твоим: 38 сия есть первая и наибольшая заповедь;

And, who is this Lord person?

 

Philippians 2: 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

9 Посему и Бог превознес Его и дал Ему имя выше всякого имени, 10 дабы пред именем Иисуса преклонилось всякое колено небесных, земных и преисподних, 11 и всякий язык исповедал, что Господь Иисус Христос в славу Бога Отца.

lastinline (where great joy, rains down)

[lastinline 0]

Are your immediate family (father, mother, brothers & sisters) aware of your positions on these critical issues that would make them say to you "oh no you've become one of those born again people".

 

lastinline (where the oxygen is pure)

 

 

Disciple:

 

Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

 

Do you adhere to the notion that the s&l is Scripture?

 

Is that why you cite passages from it?

 

Thank you

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

No.

[coffee 0]

.

Disciple:

 

Do you believe in the deity of Christ?

 

Do you adhere to the notion that the s&l is Scripture?

 

Is that why you cite passages from it?

 

Thank you

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

No.

 

 

To the above set of 3 questions, I would like to add a couple more:

 

(4) Do you still have the Spirit and Life book placed on your table in your home, next to the Bible, as a symbol and demonstration to others who might visit your home, of your belief system?

 

(5) Do you think the presence of the Spirit and Life book is harmless and should still be allowed to be used as a reference during church services for sermons and singing, for the worship of God, which in so doing supports and fortifies the political control of the Rudometkinites, who maintain that the writings of Rudometkin and Klubnikin in the Spirit and Life book are also the inspired Word of God, and equivalent to the Bible for the purpose of presenting spiritual truth?

 

(6) Or do you think the Spirit and Life book is evil in the sight of the Lord, as heresy against the written Word of God in the Holy Scriptures?

 

 

 

My perception from some of the various comments which have been posted recently here on this forum is that there seems to be an increased attempt made by some who deem it important to use the moniker of "Molokan" as a method of identifying themselves, to now also include the description of "Christian" and attach the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to themselves in defining their individual belief system.

 

At one point in time, I can remember (from my perspective anyway) that the term "Molokan" was the emphasis, and that the name of Jesus, or the term "Christian" was as if an afterthought, relegated to the background, since that description was how non-Molokans who claimed to be Jesus followers identified themselves.

 

Over the years, I have saved some of the comments that have been made on the different "Molokan" forums, specifically the former Yahoo site, as well as the former Molokani Narod forum on the MSN site. Both forum sites no longer exist.

 

The posts that are most interesting for me to review are those which reflect the stereotypical comments made by those individuals who adhere to the traditional "religious" mentality that I participated in during the time while I was still active in the "Molokan" community.

 

As Good Day has posted on another thread, it would be unfair to take something that he said at one time in his immaturity, and use it as a way to measure his walk with the Lord today, or even his status as a Jesus follower. The same can be said about me, and the same can be said about others.

 

Taking that into consideration, I was most interested in Disciple's quoted comments at the top, since they appear to be a reversal of what he believed previously, which he had posted on the Molokani Narod site:

 

Concerning my beliefs: As of now I accept the writings in the Book of Spirit and Life to be Truth. That is how I am begining these discussions...... (Message # 12, Molokani Narod, General section, Prophecy discussion)

 

 

In another post, Disciple was asked which edition of the Spirit and Life book that he accepted as being inspired by God, to which he responded:

 

The one that was put on the table at church, and recieved a blessing by The Holy Spirit. - (Message # 5, Molokani Narod, General Section)

 

 

On the Yahoo site, Disciple made the following statement about how highly he reveres Rudometkin:

 

To answer your question Maxim Gavrilovich to me was....called by God....was anointed King of Spirits by the dictate of the Spirit. To me personally, he is a hero of the faith, due the honor of such a man....he was a prophet of God who wrote by the power of The Holy Spirit.

 

(Message # 3521, Yahoo Molokan forum)

 

 

When he was asked to explain how he has come to the conclusion that Rudometkin was anointed "King of Spirits", by the dictate of the Spirit, and why he believes that Rudometkin was a "prophet of God", who purportedly wrote by the power of The Holy Spirit, Disciple responded with the following:

 

Because God, by The Holy Spirit through the prophet Effim Gerasimovich (Klubnikin), said this was so. (Message 3542, Yahoo forum)

 

 

On January 10, 2006 (3 years ago), Disciple wrote the following on this very forum, in this very Anonymous section:

 

….we know that by what he wrote, Maxim Gavrilovich based everything on The Scriptures. (Post # 195, Did MGR Die?)

 

 

If the man has indeed made what appears to be a sharp turnaround with his belief system, then to his credit, he should stand up and make his voice heard, in order that other souls, specifically those among his family and friends who were raised to believe how he himself was taught, might come to also renounce the Spirit and Life book, and the heresies of Rudometkin and Klubnikin that are written in it.

 

If, on the other hand, this is an example of such individuals who are only making it a point to mention the name of Jesus in their theological discussions with others, as a matter of conscience, but still find room to hold hands with Rudometkin and Klubnikin, and their many heresies that are in the Spirit and Life book, then this should also be made clear, that there be no doubt in the minds of others.

 

.

 

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Disciple...

 

These would be also very good to address

 

To the above set of 3 questions, I would like to add a couple more:

 

(4) Do you still have the Spirit and Life book placed on your table in your home, next to the Bible, as a symbol and demonstration to others who might visit your home, of your belief system?

 

(5) Do you think the presence of the Spirit and Life book is harmless and should still be allowed to be used as a reference during church services for sermons and singing, for the worship of God, which in so doing supports and fortifies the political control of the Rudometkinites, who maintain that the writings of Rudometkin and Klubnikin in the Spirit and Life book are also the inspired Word of God, and equivalent to the Bible for the purpose of presenting spiritual truth?

 

(6) Or do you think the Spirit and Life book is evil in the sight of the Lord, as heresy against the written Word of God in the Holy Scriptures?

[seeking_truth_1 0]

This also struck me as odd

 

From the Molokan Dogmas of 1803

 

Article 1 - God

We believe in only one God, who exists in Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as Apostle St. Paul said in his epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter 2, verse 20, "Built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone." And Christ said in Matthew, Chapter 28, verse 19, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

 

How is it mgr, this dogma AND Scripture advocate the Triune nature of God, yet molokans (in name only) deny it?

[steadfast 0]

I heard that the Spirit and Life book supports the Trinity Doctrine, is that true? Nonsense. The Spirit and Life book does support a "trinity" but not the Trinity Doctrine. The doctrine assumes the trinity as co-equal and co-eternal. In MGR 11:11:1-11; "We, His true worshipers, faithfully acknowledge Him (God) always and forever; that the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are personally one in Deity, but in power and authority are not equal

Different savior, different trinity, different God, which violates the first Commandment, Molokanism is not Christianity.....SF

[steadfast 0]

I heard that the Spirit and Life book supports the Trinity Doctrine, is that true? Nonsense. The Spirit and Life book does support a "trinity" but not the Trinity Doctrine. The doctrine assumes the trinity as co-equal and co-eternal. In MGR 11:11:1-11; "We, His true worshipers, faithfully acknowledge Him (God) always and forever; that the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are personally one in Deity, but in power and authority are not equal

Different savior, different trinity, different God, which violates the first Commandment, Molokanism is not Christianity.....SF

How clever of Mr. Rudometkin…..He writes the Savior is not co-eternal or co-equal with God, that would disqualify Jesus of Nazareth and qualify Rudometkin as the Anointed Christ instead, Rudometkin writes he is "the eternal Guarantor of your souls." pg. 516.1, coming in place of Christ. pg. 544.13……………..Hellooooooo, Thinking Caps required here, Molokanism is not Christianity, …….Stay and Pay!….SF