John 14 Discussion

[IvanTheDonut 0]

Quote from coffee:

 

 

"From the Bible:

 

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me... (John 14:11)

 

 

Christ is testifying that He is One with the Father, that He, as God the Son, is "IN" the Father, and likewise, God the Father is "IN" the Son. In other words, they are both the same God. The same God Who is the Father, is the same God Who is the Son, and vice versa."

 

 

If we believe your definition, then when one becomes born from above and receives the Holy Spirit, which is of God, then we become God....correct? You may need to rethink your position on this.

 

IvanTheDonut

[coffee 0]

.

 

Regarding the statement that was made:

 

Christ is testifying that He is One with the Father, that He, as God the Son, is "IN" the Father, and likewise, God the Father is "IN" the Son. In other words, they are both the same God. The same God Who is the Father, is the same God Who is the Son, and vice versa.

 

Mr. Donut responded:

 

If we believe your definition, then when one becomes born from above and receives the Holy Spirit, which is of God, then we become God....correct? You may need to rethink your position on this.

 

IvanTheDonut

 

With all due respect to Mr. Donut's assumption, there was no "definition" given. In this Biblical text, the Lord Jesus Christ is not speaking about being "born from above". In context, Jesus is telling His Disciples that by looking at Him, at Jesus, they are looking at God, in human flesh.

 

The context of Christ's words begins in Verse 5 of that Scripture:

 

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going. How can we know the way?"

 

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on you do know Him [in context, "you do know God the Father"] and have seen Him [in context, "you have seen God the Father"]."

 

Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

 

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know Me, Philip? Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

 

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who dwells in Me does His works.

 

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. (John 14:5-11)

 

 

The context of Verse 11 is to summarize the truth which Jesus was sharing with his Disciples, that He is God in human flesh, the same God as God the Father.

 

The disciples were asking to "see" God, and Christ told them plainly, paraphrased but in true context, "Believe Me when I tell you that are looking at Him!".

 

The context of this Scripture has nothing to do with "being born from above".

 

.

[fourvetta 0]

Quote from coffee:

 

 

"From the Bible:

 

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me... (John 14:11)

 

 

Christ is testifying that He is One with the Father, that He, as God the Son, is "IN" the Father, and likewise, God the Father is "IN" the Son. In other words, they are both the same God. The same God Who is the Father, is the same God Who is the Son, and vice versa."

 

 

If we believe your definition, then when one becomes born from above and receives the Holy Spirit, which is of God, then we become God....correct? You may need to rethink your position on this.

 

IvanTheDonut

 

 

When one receives the Holy Spirit. he is one with Christ and in turn one with God the Father. As Christ says, that they also be one in Us.

 

God said in the beginning, "Let US make man in OUR image."

 

When man sinned, he was no longer in the image of God as in one with US.

 

When Christ says that if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father, it is in reference to Christ's oneness with the Father. As in one in Spirit. And the Spirit is God. Another way of putting it is, If you have heard Me, you have heard the Father.

 

Christ says this in John 7

 

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

 

After Christ sent the Apostles, they became the Word of God manifest in the flesh. If you heard them you heard the Father and the Son. If you refused them, you refused the Father and the Son who sent them.

 

Paul says

 

13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

 

He also tell us that one who joins himself to the Lord is one in Spirit with Him. 1 Corin. 6: 17

 

The true believer following after them, then becomes the Word of God manifest in the Flesh. And the Word of God abides forever.

 

One must be born again, a second time in the Word and the Spirit and become one with God.

[fourvetta 0]

It is then, when one has no need of the scriptures, but speaks personally with God. God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit.

 

It is the Spoken Word of God that gives life and not the written Word.

 

But let the babe stay in the written Word, without the resurrection or outside of eternal life.

[steadfast 0]

It is then, when one has no need of the scriptures, but speaks personally with God. God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit.

 

It is the Spoken Word of God that gives life and not the written Word.

But let the babe stay in the written Word, without the resurrection or outside of eternal life.

It is a human weakness, when one can't find their beliefs in the written word they will be tempted with spiritually spoken words from any spirit that will confirm their theology, attempting to appeal to the listeners PRIDE. Next is to discern between those spirits. To discern between them, God sends us back to His written word as a way to test the integrity of that spirit. HE tells us to hold onto what is good.

[EGK 0]

It is then, when one has no need of the scriptures, but speaks personally with God. God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit.

 

It is the Spoken Word of God that gives life and not the written Word.

 

But let the babe stay in the written Word, without the resurrection or outside of eternal life.

 

 

The last time I looked this was a Molokan forum. What you are stating is pure Doukhobor theology. " The Holy scripturess, or the outer word, are not essential for the sons of God. It is, however, of use to them because in the scriptures, as in nature and in ourselves, they read the decrees and the acts of the Lord. But the scriptures must be understood symbolically to represent things that are inward and spiritual. It must all be understood to relate in a mystical manner to the Christ within." From; A Peculiar People by Aylmer Maude, 1904. Can you give Molokan references for your beliefs?

 

EGK

[fourvetta 0]

The last time I looked this was a Molokan forum. What you are stating is pure Doukhobor theology. " The Holy scripturess, or the outer word, are not essential for the sons of God. It is, however, of use to them because in the scriptures, as in nature and in ourselves, they read the decrees and the acts of the Lord. But the scriptures must be understood symbolically to represent things that are inward and spiritual. It must all be understood to relate in a mystical manner to the Christ within." From; A Peculiar People by Aylmer Maude, 1904. Can you give Molokan references for your beliefs?

 

EGK

 

Molokan, Doukhobor, Catholic, Baptist, whatever. The Word of God remains the same for all.

 

By use of the scriptures the world by its wisdom did not come to know God.

 

When one is in the outer word, he is apart from the inner word. The scriptures show that throughout.

 

As in the tree of life in the middle of the garden. Or the promised land in the wilderness. Or the inner tabernacle within the outer tabernacle.

 

When Moses came down from the mount, he put a veil on his face so Israel would not see the glow that shined in his face. At all times that he talked with God there was a veil.

 

The veil signifies the seperation between light and darkness.

 

The only way into the inner word is by the body of Christ which is the veil by one must pass through to the inner word. Christ said, "I am the way, the truth and the light. No man comes to the Father, but through Me."

 

All these things are copies and shadows of heavenly things.

 

After one is out of the book, God says;

 

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ˜Know the LORD,` for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

13 In that He says, "A new covenant, " He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Edited June 3, 2006 by fourvetta

[steadfast 0]

It is the Spoken Word of God that gives life and not the written Word.

 

Fourvetta, How many ways can God use to speak this inner word? TV, Newspaper, other people Angels/messengers/prophets etc. Or do you just accept meditation?

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Quote #1 Fourvetta; "When one is in the outer word, he is apart from the inner word. Scriptures show that throughout."

 

Quote #2 Fourvetta; "It is then, when one has no need of the scriptures,"......"But let the babe stay in the written Word,"

 

FV I think you're completely loosin it here!. In quote #2, you tell us we have no need of scriptures yet in quote #1 you tell us we need the scriptures to be a part of the inner word as scripture points out, which is the very same scripture you're are telling us we don't need anymore.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Scripture tells you to test the spirits with scripture, Now you have a spirit whispering into your ear, telling you that you don`t need scripture at all, God is not the author of confusion¦...Get a clue FV, what`s wrong with this scenario?

[fourvetta 0]

FV I think you're completely loosin it here!. In quote #2, you tell us we have no need of scriptures yet in quote #1 you tell us we need the scriptures to be a part of the inner word as scripture points out, which is the very same scripture you're are telling us we don't need anymore.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Scripture tells you to test the spirits with scripture, Now you have a spirit whispering into your ear, telling you that you don`t need scripture at all, God is not the author of confusion¦...Get a clue FV, what`s wrong with this scenario?

 

Christ said of those who "hear" His word that they are partakers of the first resurrection. Those who do not, are condemned. Christ is the cause of the rise and fall of many.

 

24."I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

25.I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

 

The next age is for the few and not for the many.

 

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

Hebrews also tells us that the Spoken word of God appears to those who are apart from sin. To those who have translated from one age to the next, darkness to light, death to life or better said from the book to the Spirit. And only to those who eagerly await the Spoken Word.

 

The scriptures are not eternal life. Christ specifically says

 

37.And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

38.nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

39.You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

40.yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

 

In other words, the written word testifies to the spoken word. In and of itself is not eternal life.

 

7.He (written word) came as a witness to testify concerning that light (spoken word), so that through him all men might believe.

8.He himself (written word) was not the light (spoken word); he came only as a witness to the light.

9.The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10.He (spoken word) was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

 

The Spoken Word was before the written Word. John the Baptist testifies to this.

 

15.John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me."

 

The written word is He who calls in the desert. The Lord is Spirit.

 

23.John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.'

 

It is the second Baptism of the Spoken Word which saves. The whole christian world is Baptized in water or the written word only. Apart from the light which gives life.

 

26."I baptize with water," John replied, "but among you stands one you do not know.

27.He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie."

 

It is the Baptism of Christ's blood, which is His Spirit, that saves. Those who do not have His Spirit are not of Him.

 

But that is no excuse.

 

Christ said that if He did not tell them they would not have sin, but since He told them and did not believe then the sin remains.

 

Guity as charged.

[coffee 0]

.

 

From fourvetta:

 

When Christ says that if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father, it is in reference to Christ's oneness with the Father. As in one in Spirit. And the Spirit is God. Another way of putting it is, If you have heard Me, you have heard the Father. - fourvetta, Post #3

 

This is yet another example of fourvetta twisting Scripture out of context, in order to perpetuate the heresy of the Rudometkinites. What fourvetta is attempting to say is not accurate with the Biblical text.

 

From the Bible:

 

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going. How can we know the way?"

 

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him [in context, "you have seen God"]."

 

Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

 

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know Me, Philip? Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

 

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who dwells in Me does His works.

 

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me, or else believe on account of the works themselves." (John 14:5-11)

 

 

The context of Verse 11 is to summarize the truth which Jesus was sharing with his Disciples, that He is God in human flesh, the same God as God the Father.

 

The disciples were asking "to see" God, and Christ told them in true context, "Believe Me when I tell you that you are looking at Him!".

 

The context of this Scripture has nothing to do with "hearing" from God. In other words, contrary to what fourvetta is attempting to twist out of context, the disciples were not asking to "hear" from God the Father. For that, the disciples already had the Holy Scriptures, which they revered as the very Word of God.

 

Christ's own disciples later testified of this very Biblical truth:

 

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

 

that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

 

 

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

 

 

In context, the "word of God" that is mentioned in the above passage, from the Letter to the Hebrews, the very "word of God" which is defined as "living and active", includes three specific references to what is "written" in the Scriptures.

 

1. The Biblical text of Hebrews 4:3 specifically refers to "the word of God" that is "written" in Psalm 95:11.

 

2. The Biblical text of Hebrews 4:4 specifically refers to "the word of God" that is "written" in Genesis 2:2.

 

3. The Biblical text of Hebrews 4:7 specifically refers to "the word of God" that is "written" in Psalm 95:7-8.

 

 

From fourvetta:

 

It is then, when one has no need of the scriptures, but speaks personally with God. God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit.

 

It is the Spoken Word of God that gives life and not the written Word.

 

But let the babe stay in the written Word, without the resurrection or outside of eternal life. - fourvetta, Post #4

 

 

As fourvetta has stated, those who have established their belief system upon the foundation of Rudometkin's heresies that are written in the Spirit and Life book, believe themselves to be "spiritually superior", to the point that they no longer have any need of the Scriptures.

 

According to his statement, those who revere what is written in the Bible as revelation from God, as revelation that is living, alive and active, are considered by the Rudometkinites to be mere "babies", without resurrection or eternal life.

 

However, it still remains that in the Biblical text of John 14:7-11, Jesus did not tell His disciples that "From now on you do know Him, and have 'heard' Him".

 

Nor does Philip ask Christ, "Lord 'let us hear from' the Father, and it is enough for us."

 

Also, Jesus did not tell Philip that "Whoever has heard Me has heard the Father".

 

In context, the revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ to His disciples was that "Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father", and that from now on, you know the Father, and "have seen Him".

 

The final exhortation from Christ is to "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me".

 

 

More from fourvetta:

 

In other words, the written word testifies to the spoken word. In and of itself is not eternal life.

 

The Spoken Word was before the written Word. John the Baptist testifies to this.

 

The written word is He who calls in the desert. The Lord is Spirit.

 

It is the second Baptism of the Spoken Word which saves. The whole christian world is Baptized in water or the written word only. Apart from the light which gives life.

 

It is the Baptism of Christ's blood, which is His Spirit, that saves Those who do not have His Spirit are not of Him. - fourvetta, Post #9

 

This is an excellent example of the alleged spiritual "depth" of fourvetta and his fellow Rudometkinites, who consider themselves to be the "spiritual elite".

 

Imagine that....Christ's "blood" is allegedly Christ's "Spirit", and it is the baptism of Christ's blood / Spirit that allegedly saves a person.

 

But then again, fourvetta states that it is the "second Baptism of the Spoken Word which saves".

 

Of course, this is after fourvetta shares the "enlightenment" of the Rudometkinites, that John the Baptist was the "written" word of God who prepared the way for the "spoken" word of God.

 

From the Bible:

 

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,

 

and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you”unless you believed in vain.

 

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

 

that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

 

and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

 

Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.

 

Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

 

Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. (1 Corinthians 15:1-8)

 

.

[IvanTheDonut 0]

Hello coffee,

 

I know that I am probably being overly simple here, however, you criticize fourvetta for twisting words out of context and for over spiritualizing scripture, yet you cannot explain what you find in this passage that indicates that Jesus was referring to God literally being in Him and vice versa. Please elaborate. I still can't see any proof of what you say. I believe that Christ was alluding to the spiritual presence of His Father within Him. How say you?

 

The verse in question:

 

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me... (John 14:11)

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

PS. Jesus and the Apostle Paul both tried to show the people how the Mosaic law failed mankind and how it no longer mattered, and how through faith and belief in the Holy Spirit and of course acceptance of Jesus as our Saviour was tantamount to attaining our salvation. The whole point of the new testament is to get us to understand things from a spiritual standpoint. Wouldn't believing that God was Jesus and Jesus was God just plain go against that line of thinking? And besides...practically the whole world believes that way coffee. The bible tells us not to follow the masses, cause we will end up in the eternal BBQ.

[fourvetta 0]

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him [in context, "you have seen God"]."

 

Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

 

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know Me, Philip? Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

 

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who dwells in Me does His works.

 

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me, or else believe on account of the works themselves." (John 14:5-11)

 

 

The context of Verse 11 is to summarize the truth which Jesus was sharing with his Disciples, that He is God in human flesh, the same God as God the Father.

 

The disciples were asking "to see" God, and Christ told them in true context, "Believe Me when I tell you that you are looking at Him!".

 

One having seen the true believer, has seen both the Father and the Son living within him.

 

The third feature of God on earth just as Adam and Eve walked with God on the earth in the beginning.

 

Christ said that the believer is one with Him and in turn one with God.

 

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.

26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

 

Continuing on in John 14, Christ says;

 

19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

 

Christ said that the world will not see Him no more, but the believer will. Living within the each believer.

 

Christ even promises that the believer will do greater works than He did upon the earth.

 

12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

 

Christ said the believer is the abode for the Father and the Son.

 

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

 

But coffee and most others would have you believe that there is no hope for the Spirit of God to dwell in all of us, but only in Christ.

 

Christ said in the beginning of John 14;

 

1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

2 In My Father`s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

4 And where I go you know, and the way you know."

 

Christ came for the very purpose, that we can be cleansed from our sins. So that the Spirit of God can dwell within each one of us.

 

He Himself said; "The kingdom of God does not come by observation for it is within you."

 

In context, the "word of God" that is mentioned in the above passage, from the Letter to the Hebrews, the very "word of God" which is defined as "living and active", includes three specific references to what is "written" in the Scriptures.

 

1. The Biblical text of Hebrews 4:3 specifically refers to "the word of God" that is "written" in Psalm 95:11.

 

2. The Biblical text of Hebrews 4:4 specifically refers to "the word of God" that is "written" in Genesis 2:2.

 

3. The Biblical text of Hebrews 4:7 specifically refers to "the word of God" that is "written" in Psalm 95:7-8.

 

In context, Hebrews 4 is speaking of the Iraelites being led out of Egypt to the promised land. They had no scriptures at that time, being that Moses wrote the first five books of the bible.

 

So they were not led by the written Word, but by the Spoken Word that Moses recieved.

[IvanTheDonut 0]

Hello coffee,

 

I know that I am probably being overly simple here, however, you criticized someone for twisting words out of context and for over spiritualizing scripture, yet you cannot explain what you find in this passage that indicates that Jesus was referring to God literally being in Him and vice versa. Please elaborate. I still can't see any proof of what you say. I believe that Christ was alluding to the spiritual presence of His Father within Him. How say you?

 

The verse in question:

 

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me... (John 14:11)

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

PS. Jesus and the Apostle Paul both tried to show the people how the Mosaic law failed mankind and how it no longer mattered, and how through faith and belief in the Holy Spirit and of course acceptance of Jesus as our Saviour was tantamount to attaining our salvation. The whole point of the new testament is to get us to understand things from a spiritual standpoint. Wouldn't believing that God was Jesus and Jesus was God in a fleshly human type context just plain go against that line of thinking? And besides...practically the whole world believes that way. The bible tells us not to follow the masses, because we will end up in the eternal BBQ.

[anakainosis 0]

The whole point of the new testament is to get us to understand things from a spiritual standpoint. Wouldn't believing that God was Jesus and Jesus was God in a fleshly human type context just plain go against that line of thinking? And besides...practically the whole world believes that way. The bible tells us not to follow the masses, because we will end up in the eternal BBQ.

 

 

 

Can you define what you mean by "Spiritual"? And show us how the New Testament teaches that?

[fourvetta 0]

I believe that Christ was alluding to the spiritual presence of His Father within Him. How say you?

 

That is the very reason why Christ said that all manner of blasphemy is forgiven against the son of man, but not against the Holy Spirit.

 

God is Spirit and no man has ever seen God and lived. Christ was a Tabernacle for God living within Him.

 

The Word of God manifest in the flesh of Christ. Just as the Word was manifest in the prophets of the OT.

 

Hebrews 1 says this;

 

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,

2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son

Edited June 7, 2006 by fourvetta

[IvanTheDonut 0]

The whole point of the new testament is to get us to understand things from a spiritual standpoint. Wouldn't believing that God was Jesus and Jesus was God in a fleshly human type context just plain go against that line of thinking? And besides...practically the whole world believes that way. The bible tells us not to follow the masses, because we will end up in the eternal BBQ.

 

 

 

Can you define what you mean by "Spiritual"? And show us how the New Testament teaches that?

 

 

Hello. Below is how I define "Spiritual." How you interpret it is up to you. After the scripture, I added a little commentary. Please be sure to read the scripture in its entirety, as it will give you some of the "spiritual" understanding that you seek.

 

 

 

1 Corinthians Chapter 2

 

 

2:1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not in loftiness of

speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of Christ.

 

2:2. For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus

Christ: and him crucified.

 

2:3. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.

 

2:4. And my speech and my preaching was not in the persuasive words of

human wisdom. but in shewing of the Spirit and power:

 

2:5. That your faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the

power of God.

 

2:6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect: yet not the wisdom of

this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nought.

 

2:7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is

hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory:

 

2:8. Which none of the princes of this world knew. For if they had

known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

2:9. But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard:

neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath

prepared for them that love him.

 

2:10. But to us God hath revealed them by his Spirit. For the Spirit

searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

2:11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man

that is in him? So the things also that are of God, no man knoweth, but

the Spirit of God.

 

2:12. Now, we have received not the spirit of this world, but the

Spirit that is of God: that we may know the things that are given us

from God.

 

2:13. Which things also we speak: not in the learned words of human

wisdom, but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things

with spiritual.

 

2:14. But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the

Spirit of God. For it is foolishness to him: and he cannot understand,

because it is spiritually examined.

 

2:15. But the spiritual man judgeth all things: and he himself is

judged of no man.

 

2:16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct

him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

 

 

 

Well Anakainosis, coffee, steadfast and others...

 

Jesus Christ didn`t teach with big words, but in spirit and power. The wisdom He taught was not meant for the worldly people to understand, but only the spiritual man.

 

The worldly wise man is someone who is taken up with sensual or worldly pleasures (ie caught up in the ways of the world and with antichrist teachings), worldly affections; and those who measure up divin or spiritual mysteries by natural reason, sense and human wisdom only. (physical mindedness)

 

Men like this have little or no understanding of the things of God. The spiritual man is he who, in the mysteries of religion does not take a human sense for a guide: but submits his judgement spiritually. Christ promised us He would remain until the end of the world with his church (church of the woman clothed in the sun), and to direct her in all things by the Spirit of Truth!

 

This is some but not all of my understanding of the above scripture. You may not understand it or even comprehend it, but it stands as the Word of God to be understood by those in the Spirit of Truth.

 

Do you coffee, anakinosis, steadfast and others understand things from a worldly viewpoint, or spiritually as scripture commands us to?

 

You may choose to refute what I have posted for you, but if you do, you are only being judged by yourselves and by scripture and nothing that I have made up in my own mind. All I have told you is right in the bible for all to see.

[fourvetta 0]

2:8. Which none of the princes of this world knew. For if they had

known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

The "princes of this world" at that time were the scribes and the pharasees.

 

There is a wisdom which is devious, but the wisdom that is of God will not come unto a fool.

[steadfast 0]

IvanTheDonut; I have a comment then a question.

 

Quote IvanTheDonut; "Do you coffee, anakinosis, steadfast and others understand things from a worldly viewpoint, or spiritually as scripture commands us to?"

 

First my comment; You are saying we should not rely on scripture, yet you don't do as you say;.... Quote; "as scripture commands us to".

 

Now for my question; This spirit that you commune with, now not having the scriptures to test with, how do know this spirits origin?

 

Maybe this is where Maxim's little trolley jumped off it's track. U-think?

 

 

2:8. Which none of the princes of this world knew. For if they had

known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

The "princes of this world" at that time were the scribes and the pharasees.

 

There is a wisdom which is devious, but the wisdom that is of God will not come unto a fool.

Judging from the content of his writings, who did Maxim scribe for? How do you reconcile with the substantial volumn of MGR's Biblical contradictions?

[fourvetta 0]

Judging from the content of his writings, who did Maxim scribe for? How do you reconcile with the substantial volumn of MGR's Biblical contradictions?

 

6 The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none,

but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.

 

7 Stay away from a foolish man,

for you will not find knowledge on his lips.

[coffee 0]

.

 

Hello Mr. Donut,

 

Regarding:

 

Jesus Christ didn't teach with big words, but in spirit and power. The wisdom He taught was not meant for the worldly people to understand, but only the spiritual man.

 

From the Bible:

 

So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

 

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name bear witness about Me,

 

but you do not believe because you are not part of My flock.

 

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

 

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

 

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

 

I and the Father are one." (John 10:24-30)

 

 

When the Lord Jesus Christ told the people that He and God the Father are ONE, it is written in the Bible that the Jews picked up stones to kill him. When Jesus asked them why they were intent upon stoning him to death, they answered that it was because of blasphemy, that Christ, being a "mere man", was claiming to be God.

 

According to the Scriptures, which the Jews were very familiar with, only God, because He is the Creator, has it within His power to give a person eternal life. For someone to say that He gives others eternal life was blasphemous, unless that person is God Himself.

 

Jesus first stated that no one is able to snatch any of "His sheep" out of His hand, and then, in the very next breath, He proclaims say that no one is able to snatch any of "His sheep" out of His Father's hand.

 

What are Christ's sheep doing in His Father's hand? In context, Christ is saying that because He and the Father are the same ONE God, His hand and the Father's hand are one and the same. Thus, His following statement, "I and the Father are one".

 

From the Bible:

 

The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone You but for blasphemy, because You, being a man, make yourself God." (John 10:33)

 

There are those who teach that when Christ proclaimed the words, "I and the Father are One", this was simply a statement to convey the idea that Jesus had merely come to a spiritual "joining of spirits" with God the Father, and that all "spiritual people" today can become one with God, in the same way that Jesus became one with the Father, when we receive the gift of His Holy Spirit.

 

In truth, since this type of teaching conveys a "oneness in spirit", as opposed to a "oneness in person", it would not have been considered "blasphemy" by the Jews in that day. If this indeed is what took place, then the Jews would have had no reason to pick up stones and begin preparing to stone Jesus to death, since this is simply another version of what they themselves taught, "oneness in spirit" with God, through obedience to His commands, according to what is written in the Holy Scriptures.

 

However, according to the Biblical text, the Jews, who knew and understood what Christ was saying, in the language of that day, realized that in contrast to "oneness in spirit", Jesus was proclaiming the truth that He and God the Father are the same ONE God. That kind of statement WAS considered by the unbelievers to be blasphemy, which is why the Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus.

 

Like the Jews who were attempting to kill Jesus, there are people today who have little or no understanding of the things of God, because they are not led by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they cannot understand the spiritual truths of what is written in the Bible. These are the ones who, in their haughty, elitist mentality, even make the claim that they have no need of the Scriptures.

 

This is the worldly wise man who is arrogantly obsessed with his own will, instead of the will of God. This is the man who follows blindly the heresies of previous generations, without searching the Scriptures in order to test false teachings. This is the man who shamefully proclaims that which is not consistent with what is written in the Bible, even after it has been pointed out to him.

 

This is some, but not all of my understanding of the above Scripture. You may not understand it or even comprehend it, but it stands as the Word of God, to be understood by those who are filled with the Spirit of Truth.

 

You may choose to refuse what I have posted for you, but if you do, you are only being judged by what God has spoken, which is written in the Scriptures, and not by anything that I have made up according to my own reasoning.

 

All that I have told you is right there, in the Bible, for all to see.

 

 

 

P.S. Regarding the Creator God:

 

He [the Lord Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

 

For by him [by the Lord Jesus Christ] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ” all things were created through him and for him. (Colossians 1:15-16)

 

In other words, the Lord Jesus Christ, because He is the Creator, can say that He gives eternal life, since according to what is written in the Bible, He created all mankind.

 

Rudometkin, on the other hand, who never created anything in his life, except for fathering children, was never in any position to grant others "eternal life", other than within his own mind, which was that of a deceived heretic, who coronated himself to be king over anyone who desires to be one of his followers.

 

From Rudometkin, in the Spirit and Life book:

 

 

For this you will be rewarded by me with eternal life [be "rewarded" with eternal life by Rudometkin himself], and the Kingdom of peace of our Lord Jesus Christ, upon this good land for a thousand years. (Verse 5)

 

Moreover, you will truly be given all of this from me [from Rudometkin, personally], if only you justly fulfill my will in the Spirit. (Verse 6)

 

Meanwhile I, first of all, will clothe myself [Rudometkin will clothe himself] in garments of scarlet, then....

 

I shall place a crown of gold upon my head.... (Page 352, Book 6, Article 17, Verses 1-13)

 

.

[anakainosis 0]

The whole point of the new testament is to get us to understand things from a spiritual standpoint. Wouldn't believing that God was Jesus and Jesus was God in a fleshly human type context just plain go against that line of thinking? And besides...practically the whole world believes that way. The bible tells us not to follow the masses, because we will end up in the eternal BBQ.

 

 

 

Can you define what you mean by "Spiritual"? And show us how the New Testament teaches that?

 

 

Hello. Below is how I define "Spiritual." How you interpret it is up to you. After the scripture, I added a little commentary. Please be sure to read the scripture in its entirety, as it will give you some of the "spiritual" understanding that you seek.

 

 

 

1 Corinthians Chapter 2

 

 

2:1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not in loftiness of

speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of Christ.

 

2:2. For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus

Christ: and him crucified.

 

2:3. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.

 

2:4. And my speech and my preaching was not in the persuasive words of

human wisdom. but in shewing of the Spirit and power:

 

2:5. That your faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the

power of God.

 

2:6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect: yet not the wisdom of

this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nought.

 

2:7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is

hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory:

 

2:8. Which none of the princes of this world knew. For if they had

known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

2:9. But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard:

neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath

prepared for them that love him.

 

2:10. But to us God hath revealed them by his Spirit. For the Spirit

searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

2:11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man

that is in him? So the things also that are of God, no man knoweth, but

the Spirit of God.

 

2:12. Now, we have received not the spirit of this world, but the

Spirit that is of God: that we may know the things that are given us

from God.

 

2:13. Which things also we speak: not in the learned words of human

wisdom, but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things

with spiritual.

 

2:14. But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the

Spirit of God. For it is foolishness to him: and he cannot understand,

because it is spiritually examined.

 

2:15. But the spiritual man judgeth all things: and he himself is

judged of no man.

 

2:16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct

him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

 

 

 

Well Anakainosis, coffee, steadfast and others...

 

Jesus Christ didn`t teach with big words, but in spirit and power. The wisdom He taught was not meant for the worldly people to understand, but only the spiritual man.

 

The worldly wise man is someone who is taken up with sensual or worldly pleasures (ie caught up in the ways of the world and with antichrist teachings), worldly affections; and those who measure up divin or spiritual mysteries by natural reason, sense and human wisdom only. (physical mindedness)

 

Men like this have little or no understanding of the things of God. The spiritual man is he who, in the mysteries of religion does not take a human sense for a guide: but submits his judgement spiritually. Christ promised us He would remain until the end of the world with his church (church of the woman clothed in the sun), and to direct her in all things by the Spirit of Truth!

 

This is some but not all of my understanding of the above scripture. You may not understand it or even comprehend it, but it stands as the Word of God to be understood by those in the Spirit of Truth.

 

Do you coffee, anakinosis, steadfast and others understand things from a worldly viewpoint, or spiritually as scripture commands us to?

 

You may choose to refute what I have posted for you, but if you do, you are only being judged by yourselves and by scripture and nothing that I have made up in my own mind. All I have told you is right in the bible for all to see.

 

 

 

 

"Jesus Christ didn`t teach with big words, but in spirit and power. The wisdom He taught was not meant for the worldly people to understand, but only the spiritual man."- ITD

 

Keep in mind there are many biblical words used in scripture like "sanctification" or "propitiation" that many think are big words, but should be common knowledge among bible believing Christians. I know a few Molokans who like to criticize those who use them, only to reveal how unreflective they truly are regarding their professed faith.

 

"The worldly wise man is someone who is taken up with sensual or worldly pleasures (ie caught up in the ways of the world and with antichrist teachings), worldly affections; and those who measure up divin or spiritual mysteries by natural reason, sense and human wisdom only. (physical mindedness)

 

Men like this have little or no understanding of the things of God. The spiritual man is he who, in the mysteries of religion does not take a human sense for a guide: but submits his judgement spiritually. Christ promised us He would remain until the end of the world with his church (church of the woman clothed in the sun), and to direct her in all things by the Spirit of Truth!

 

Do you coffee, anakinosis, steadfast and others understand things from a worldly viewpoint, or spiritually as scripture commands us to?" “ITD

 

Regarding the "worldly wise man" I agree. But to assume that Coffee, steadfast, seeking, and myself do not understand the mysteries of God, does not simply add up.

 

For when Paul speaks of "the power of God" or the "mysteries" in the 1 Corinthian passages he speaks of the Cross and who Christ was. What was the mystery? Paul states it in Ephesians 3:5. We do not have a problem understanding or preaching Christ crucified. According to Paul it is the power of God (1 Cor 1:18), and that is what we boast in. It is not our spiritual stumbling block.

 

So, according to Paul we do not understand or interpret things from worldly wisdom or perspective, if we did we would not accept Christ`s atoning work on the cross and would consider it foolishness (1 Cor 1:18; 2:14). That should answer your question clearly enough.

 

Did you notice that Paul spoke nothing about boasting of ˜nashi predki` or the new spiritual mysteries of Makcim and traditions of men (Molokan religion)?

 

Also, your comment about the church known as the Woman Clothed in the Sun reminds me of a strictly Makcimist interpretation of a Revelation passage. That is, only the followers of Makcim are the true and only church in the world all others (nenash) are going to hell. Do you believe this? Because that is what`s written and placed on all the front tables of the Prygun churches.

[steadfast 0]

Judging from the content of his writings, who did Maxim scribe for? How do you reconcile with the substantial volumn of MGR's Biblical contradictions?

 

6 The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none,

but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.

 

7 Stay away from a foolish man,

for you will not find knowledge on his lips.

1 Thess 5:21-22

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

 

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

KJV

[steadfast 0]

ONLY MOLOKANS ARE IN HEAVEN Bk. MGR, book 5, Article 4, Verses 4-6 "And this surprised me at the time and awesomly struck me with a flaming love towards all of my people, the Molokan generation. For they alone are the true worshippers of the Father in the Spirit, and by faith in Jesus Christ are the eternal heirs to the promise of God upon this good land for a thousand years. And there are none besides them, " ...........More spiritual food brought to you by your friendly neighborhood untested spirit, sanctioned by every Molokan church.....

Puke, cookies goin overboard!

[steadfast 0]

MAXIM'S NEW ISRAELITE MOLOKANS WILL BE THE ONLY CHURCH IN HEAVEN As Maxim says, "Not all the entire church is crowned with the crown of victory. There is only one principle victor, who defeats the devil in every place."; "With the exception of only you, my faithful followers, the new spiritual Israel...." (Page 498, Book 10, Article 9, Verse4- 6).

[fourvetta 0]

There are those who teach that when Christ proclaimed the words, "I and the Father are One", this was simply a statement to convey the idea that Jesus had merely come to a spiritual "joining of spirits" with God the Father, and that all "spiritual people" today can become one with God, in the same way that Jesus became one with the Father, when we receive the gift of His Holy Spirit.

 

In truth, since this type of teaching conveys a "oneness in spirit", as opposed to a "oneness in person", it would not have been considered "blasphemy" by the Jews in that day. If this indeed is what took place, then the Jews would have had no reason to pick up stones and begin preparing to stone Jesus to death, since this is simply another version of what they themselves taught, "oneness in spirit" with God, through obedience to His commands, according to what is written in the Holy Scriptures.

 

However, according to the Biblical text, the Jews, who knew and understood what Christ was saying, in the language of that day, realized that in contrast to "oneness in spirit", Jesus was proclaiming the truth that He and God the Father are the same ONE God.

 

The jews, just like certain people of today, did not understand what Christ meant when He said, "I and the Father are One"

 

Such people, if given the chance would pick up stones also.

 

Christ specifically states or maybe He did not tell us the truth?

 

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

 

A true believer becomes one with the Father and the Son by receiving the Glory or the Word which they give to the sanctified world. Only to those who recieve Christ through the teachings of the Apostles.

 

Notice I said "sanctified world"

 

The true believer is a new heaven and a new earth for God. There is no longer a deep sea. Christ said, "I shall not speak to you in parables but will speak to you plainly of the Father."

 

"Behold the Tabernalce of God is with Men. I shall dwell in them. They shall be My people and I shall be their God."

 

In other words, the Word of God made manifest in the flesh of men or oneness with the Father and the Son.

 

To the unbeliever, the Spirit of God cannot dwell. Neither will God speak to him plainly, but in parables.

 

Such a person is a hater of Father and the Son.

 

He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father`s who sent Me.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

To The Top

[seeking_truth_1 0]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16)

 

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. `

(John 1:14)

 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1-2)