Kabbalah In The Doctrine Of Russian Freemasonry and Molokanism

seeking_truth_1 · September 10, 2006

Very interesting...

anonymous provided that list of names that mgr refered to himself as though his writings

One of those "titles" "the king of the new israel" grabbed my attention

So I did a little research and found Thaddeus Grabianka (1740“1817) also called himself "the king of the new israel"

Oddly enough, this is when more of the mysticism comes in

There is a tie between, Grabianka, Kabbalah and Freemasonry (specifically russian freemasonry) and mgr's mystic beliefs

More to follow...

Grace, do you have further info on this guy?

seeking_truth_1 · September 11, 2006

A little more on this guy and his possible influences on mgr

Note the "predictions" of the return of Christ, the use of the name "The New Israel", the receipt of "prophecies" in an excited or ecstatic state, Grabianka's reference to himself as the "King of the New Israel"

Who/what does this sound like to you?

Except from "The Place Of Kabbalah In The Doctrine Of Russian Freemasonry" by KONSTANTIN BURMISTROV & MARIA ENDEL

An interesting mystical Illuminati society "The New Israel" (or "The People of God") was founded in 1785 by a Polish nobleman Tadeusz (Thaddeus) Leszczyc-Grabianka (1740-1807) at Avignon and moved in the early 19th century to St. Petersburg.

The first Russians were incorporated into this organization at the end of 1780s (e.g. Vice Admiral S.I. Pleshcheyev and Prince N.V. Repnin) but after his arrival in St. Petersburg (in August, 1805) Grabianka found numerous admirers among the aristocracy (meetings of the society took place in the Marble Palace, in the rooms of the crown-prince Konstantin Pavlovich). Among the members were almost all eminent Russian Rosicrucians; they predicted that ˜by God`s order, the Second and near Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ, and His glorious reign on the earth` would occur in 1835.

A select part of the members of the society constituted a "Council of Prophets" and had "correspondence with heaven". The prophesies were accomplished in an ecstatic state, and the preparation to this experience required keeping the fast and solitude. Grabianka, the "King of the New Israel", is known to have had a keen interest in Jewish mysticism; he was a pupil of the abbÃ© Louis-Philibert de Morveau (Brumore) (?-1786), a famous mason, alchemist and kabbalist, ˜a wiseman "who had a voice [i.e. the gift of prophecy]" through the science of numbers, or Kabbalah`. M. Longinov suggested that ˜Grabianka had to read the Bible very assiduously, and studying it he expected to attain an understanding of the higher magic that was promised to him due to kabbalistic computations`. His prediction of the Second Advent was probably based on these computations".

steadfast · September 11, 2006

A few nights ago I watched a National Geographic special about Freemasonry. The commentator showed how the proportions of the Freemason triangle were arrived at.

The Freemason triangle proportions are as follows; if the over all height of the triangle is one, then the two longest legs of the triangle will be 1.4

seeking_truth_1 · September 12, 2006

Well, isn`t that interesting¦

See the attached image of the S&L cover triangle from the 1928 edition

Notice the height of the triangle is 4.8 mm and the legs are 6.7 mm

4.8 x 1.4 = 6.7 (a.k.a masonic triangle)

Coincidence¦? I don`t think so

Thanks for the 1.4 factor Dz. Fast

seeking_truth_1 · September 12, 2006

Can anyone tell me why Kabbalah and Freemasonry isn't a good thing from a Biblical standpoint?

Isn't anyone alarmed that these mystic elements are contained within the S & L and their influence is manifest in group 2 & 3 molokanism?

Grace · September 16, 2006

Seeking,

I have to take a raincheck to get back to you on some Russian Freemasonry stuff.....grandchild #5 gave us a false alarm and decided not to make his/her appearance yet.....then I got this nasty flu bug!!

I'm in recovery!

I'll be back!

Your friend, Grace :-)

koshka · September 30, 2006

Well isn`t that interesting¦

See the attached image of the S&L cover triangle from the 1928 edition

Notice the height of the triangle is 4.8 mm and the legs are 6.7 mm

4.8 x 1.4 = 6.7 (a.k.a masonic triangle)

Coincidence¦? I don`t think so

Thanks for the 1.4 factor Dz. Fast

Is this mason triangle on the russian bible or the mgr book? I remember that triangle well and my heart is racing, this is all blowing my mind!

seeking_truth_1 · September 30, 2006

It's on the front of the s & l ("spirit & life") book not the bible

Well isn`t that interesting¦

See the attached image of the S&L cover triangle from the 1928 edition

Notice the height of the triangle is 4.8 mm and the legs are 6.7 mm

4.8 x 1.4 = 6.7 (a.k.a masonic triangle)

Coincidence¦? I don`t think so

Thanks for the 1.4 factor Dz. Fast

Is this mason triangle on the russian bible or the mgr book? I remember that triangle well and my heart is racing, this is all blowing my mind!

seeking_truth_1 · October 26, 2006

Bringing it to the top

seeking_truth_1 · March 30, 2007

Has anyone done any research into this connection between Kabbalah, Russian Freemasonry and Molokanism as it relates to the "new israel" doctrine advocated by ALL who adhere to the S&L?

seeking_truth_1 · March 27, 2008

Hello, EGK

Here's another "symbol" in the shape of a triangle

What is it's significance

If you add false doctrine to pagan symbolism does that symbol become more that just an icon?

April 4, 2008

Hello again seeking_truth_1

As a side note when I refer to the Spirit and Life in a positive light, I am more specifically referring to LS, DY, and EGK. Which after you do a thorough study of the Bible, particularly the Septuagint version, will see they do indeed match up pretty well, or as I said previously, they match up at least just as well as any other denomination's claims.

Yes! MGR's writings did send up "red flags" and its over such that I do not want to jump to any conclusion too hastily whether for or against them.

1. I have to compare his sexually explicit references to those sexually explicit references in the Bible (which we know are not subtle) and see if it is reasonable to conclude a similar use. Since sexually explicit activity is a used allegorically in the Bible, I can't immediately reject his writings on that basis.

2. Of course the Bible does not teach MGR will be king of the millenium. It says we will ALL be as kings and priest, rulling over the nations. MGR does claim in many passages that it is the Millenial Kingdom of Christ, and so it might (i'm not saying it is) but it might be possible to argue that he is allegorically using himself (MGR) as a representation of everyone's kingship. Or, I could see one arguing that its the Spirit speaking through him and that in actuality it is the Spirit that will reign. --- just a thought.

3. Never dying but being (I thought it was renewed/regenerated not reincarnated?) every 100 years may not necessarily be impossible since we know Enoch and Elijah experienced the not dying part at least.

4. Agreed, he cannot be a "special" intercessor. Either that is the Spirit talking through him or you may well be correct in your assertion of heresy.

5. Agreed, he cannot be the Saviour, though I don't recall him saying he was. As for messiah, if we see the term in light of being "anointed" and serving a special leadership role, then it may not necessarily be heretical. Once I learn to transliterate hebrew, I'll have to see if the Bible used this term to refer to the many anointed leaders of the old testament.

If I ultimately can't use the above arguments to rationalize his writings, then I'd agree with you that they don't match up with scripture according to a Christian interpretation.

I wouldn't call my use of "Baptist" a term of derision. I use that adjective because they are one of the largest and more influential protestant denominations in America, and furthermore, the largest body of them (the Southern Baptist Convention) on the whole appears to "quench the Spirit" since they discourage and in many cases deny the belief and practice of modern miraculous manifestations such as tongues and prophecy (and the others). (Granted I realize all baptist congregations are "independent" and allowed to establish their own "distinctives" etc).

The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is an important aspect of the Old and New Testaments and modern (true) Christianity. The Bible makes this clear. In the future I'll use "non spiritual" Christian instead.

I think it would be best for me to study the issue of MGR's writings with someone who is not yet strictly for him or strictly against him because both are obviously extremely biased.

Nevertheless it would be interesting to see how you claim every one of my potential rationalizations of points 1-5 are actually invalid.

I agree with your summation of christianity but I would like to add:

"If you love Me, keep My commandments" John 14:15

"The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy" Revelation 19:10 (notice I removed the "s").

seeking_truth_1 · April 5, 2008

I do not necessarily agree with your claim that LS, DY, and EGK were not equally heretical in their "doctrine"

Regardless of you views n those authors at least we both agree on mgr's writings, at the very least, send should send up "red flags" for a Christian

The question becomes why is such a book used in ANY "christian" church service when the contents are not wholly Christian?

Hello again seeking_truth_1
As a side note when I refer to the Spirit and Life in a positive light, I am more specifically referring to LS, DY, and EGK. Which after you do a thorough study of the Bible, particularly the Septuagint version, will see they do indeed match up pretty well, or as I said previously, they match up at least just as well as any other denomination's claims.

Yes! MGR's writings did send up "red flags" and its over such that I do not want to jump to any conclusion too hastily whether for or against them.

1. I have to compare his sexually explicit references to those sexually explicit references in the Bible (which we know are not subtle) and see if it is reasonable to conclude a similar use. Since sexually explicit activity is a used allegorically in the Bible, I can't immediately reject his writings on that basis.

2. Of course the Bible does not teach MGR will be king of the millenium. It says we will ALL be as kings and priest, rulling over the nations. MGR does claim in many passages that it is the Millenial Kingdom of Christ, and so it might (i'm not saying it is) but it might be possible to argue that he is allegorically using himself (MGR) as a representation of everyone's kingship. Or, I could see one arguing that its the Spirit speaking through him and that in actuality it is the Spirit that will reign. --- just a thought.

3. Never dying but being (I thought it was renewed/regenerated not reincarnated?) every 100 years may not necessarily be impossible since we know Enoch and Elijah experienced the not dying part at least.

4. Agreed, he cannot be a "special" intercessor. Either that is the Spirit talking through him or you may well be correct in your assertion of heresy.

5. Agreed, he cannot be the Saviour, though I don't recall him saying he was. As for messiah, if we see the term in light of being "anointed" and serving a special leadership role, then it may not necessarily be heretical. Once I learn to transliterate hebrew, I'll have to see if the Bible used this term to refer to the many anointed leaders of the old testament.

If I ultimately can't use the above arguments to rationalize his writings, then I'd agree with you that they don't match up with scripture according to a Christian interpretation.

Frankly I don't agree with some of the core tenets of the Baptists for the some of the same reasons you cite but also thier requiring Baptism to obtain Salvation. The Bible simple does not teach that

I wouldn't call my use of "Baptist" a term of derision. I use that adjective because they are one of the largest and more influential protestant denominations in America, and furthermore, the largest body of them (the Southern Baptist Convention) on the whole appears to "quench the Spirit" since they discourage and in many cases deny the belief and practice of modern miraculous manifestations such as tongues and prophecy (and the others). (Granted I realize all baptist congregations are "independent" and allowed to establish their own "distinctives" etc).

The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is an important aspect of the Old and New Testaments and modern (true) Christianity. The Bible makes this clear. In the future I'll use "non spiritual" Christian instead.

I wouldn't spend a whole bunch of time to study those writings and spend it in Bible study instead

I think it would be best for me to study the issue of MGR's writings with someone who is not yet strictly for him or strictly against him because both are obviously extremely biased.

To make quick work of mgr the shortest way is to address the never dying and his claims to be "messiah"

Bible prophecy spoke about the Messiah needing to phyically die and be resurrected

No death and resurrection, no Messiah.

Nevertheless it would be interesting to see how you claim every one of my potential rationalizations of points 1-5 are actually invalid.

I agree with your summation of christianity but I would like to add:

"If you love Me, keep My commandments" John 14:15

"The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy" Revelation 19:10 (notice I removed the "s").

April 6, 2008

Hi seeking_truth_1 -- I do study the Bible more than the Spirit and Life but I also find that by cross examining the Spirit and Life with the Bible I have benefited as well because it beckons me to ask myself "what does the Bible really say at this [insert passage] point."

So you said,

"To make quick work of mgr the shortest way is to address the never dying and his claims to be "messiah"

Bible prophecy spoke about the Messiah needing to phyically die and be resurrected

No death and resurrection, no Messiah"

But my question was, as I listed in my previous response to you, is the only use of the word "messiah" in the Old Testament a reference to Jesus? Are there times the word "messiah" is used to strictly reference an "anointed" person for a leadership role?

I tried to do some transliterating but I have yet to master the use of those diacritical marks representing vowels, consequently, my conclusions may be in error, and I will have to more carefully check later (as can you) but it appeared that the Old Testament did use the word "messiah" to refer to non-Jesus, non-saviour figures.

If that's the case, although it would seem peculiar that MGR used the hebrew word, I don't think we can consider him heretical on that particular point.

I agree with you that "the Messiah" in reference to the Saviour, did indeed have to die and ressurect, and we know that the Messiah in that sense is strictly refering to Jesus.

Now the above is what I would consider a working study of the Bible, I had previously assumed that Messiah refered strictly to Jesus, but I may have just learned it refers to "anointed" ones in the general Old Testament context. In all sincerity though, if my transliteration is wrong, forgive me for my error and please help clarify the transliteration.

seeking_truth_1 · April 6, 2008

Thank you for your reply...

mgr's reference to himself as "messiah" isn't exactly how it reads

mgr actually refers to himself as the "new jewish messiah"

That takes on a whole other meaning and intent

It directly indicates that the was an "old jewish messiah" of which mgr is taking His place

This type of modern day "messiah-ism" was not only claimed by mgr but many others who preyed upon the gullible peasants

There's an interesting paper addressing this - The Place Of Kabbalah In The Doctrine Of Russian Freemasons* by Konstantin Burmistrov & Maria Endel

Much of the heretical rhetoric mgr writes can easily find origin in mysticism and the occult

Let's look at an excerpt from the paper

In 1792, the Russian government destroyed the circle of Moscow Rosicrucians; afterwards, many masonic lodges gave up their activity. The lodges remained and were reopened but existed secretly and were in fact illegal. The most interesting among them was "the Lodge of Neptune" opened in Moscow in 1798. Its members continued Rosicrucian activity, read and translated the works of European mystics, and collected a great library of mystical books . At the beginning of the 19th century, some small circles of "theorists" functioned in St. Petersburg (under the guidance of A.F. Labzin) and in Moscow (guided by I.A. Pozdeev). Even after the official legalization of masonic activity in 1803, they continued to work inconspicuously. Taking into consideration the extant part of Pozdeev`s library, the members of his lodge had interest in Kabbalah. In this collection, there are some kabbalistic books that belonged formerly to the voluminous library of a mason Ivan Filatyev.

An interesting mystical Illuminati society "The New Israel" (or "The People of God") was founded in 1785 by a Polish nobleman Tadeusz (Thaddeus) Leszczyc-Grabianka (1740-1807) at Avignon and moved in the early 19th century to St. Petersburg. The first Russians were incorporated into this organization at the end of 1780s (e.g. Vice Admiral S.I. Pleshcheyev and Prince N.V. Repnin) but after his arrival in St. Petersburg (in August, 1805) Grabianka found numerous admirers among the aristocracy (meetings of the society took place in the Marble Palace, in the rooms of the crown-prince Konstantin Pavlovich). Among the members were almost all eminent Russian Rosicrucians;

they predicted that ˜by God`s order, the Second and near Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ, and His glorious reign on the earth` would occur in 1835. A select part of the members of the society constituted a "Council of Prophets" and had "correspondence with heaven". The prophesies were accomplished in an ecstatic state, and the preparation to this experience required keeping the fast and solitude. Grabianka, the "King of the New Israel", is known to have had a keen interest in Jewish mysticism; he was a pupil of the

abbÃ© Louis-Philibert de Morveau (Brumore) (?-1786), a famous mason, alchemist and kabbalist, ˜a wiseman "who had a voice [i.e. the gift of prophecy]" through the science of numbers, or Kabbalah` . M. Longinov suggested that ˜Grabianka had to read the Bible very assiduously, and studying it he expected to attain an understanding of the higher magic that was promised to him due to kabbalistic computations`. His prediction of the Second Advent was probably based on these "computations".

Notice the same phrasiologies used by Grabianka as mgr such as "The New Israel", "King of the New Israel" and placing dates on the Second Advent of Jesus Christ

Continuing regarding The One True Messiah

There is prophecy upon prophecy in the Bible pointing to A Messiah or Saviour of mankind and not just speaking about someone who is to be a great leader or earthly king

The Jews were looking for a Saviour as prophesied and Jesus showed up and they killed Him

Lets look at the following to illustrate the point

"24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 "Know therefore and understand, [That] from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, [There shall be] seven weeks and sixtyï¿½"two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

26 "And after the sixtyï¿½"two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it [shall be] with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined." (D aniel 9:24-26 NKJV)

The Messiah was killed but not for Himself but rather those He came to rescue

""But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, [Though] you are little among the thousands of Judah, [Yet] out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth [are] from of old, From everlasting."" (Micah 5:2 NKJV)

The One Ruler who is eternal...This obviously is not speaking about a man born in the 1800's but someone who been around since the beginning

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:1-4 NKJV)

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14 NKJV)

seeking_truth_1 · April 7, 2008

Hello, guest...

The thread ended up over here

Are you still there?

Thanks!

April 8, 2008

Hey seeking_truth_1,

There certainly do appear to be some ideological connections between the mystics in that article and MGR's writings. I also notice some apparent similarities between his writings and the khlysti, and perhaps also the general millennialist movements of 19th century Russia.

If saying "the new Jewish Messiah" means to replace the "old" messiah (i.e. the true Messiah, Jesus) then certainly he's a false prophet.

However, the reason I didn't immediately throw him out as a false prophet was because he always writes that Jesus is superior. I recall he wrote that Jesus is the One True Shepherd, the son of God (even sharing in the deity of the Godhead), and that we are all to serve Jesus whom God sent as savior.

So when I came across passages that could very well be taken (although hopefully erroneously for his sake) as making him equal to Jesus or replacing him as you think he might be attemping, I also looked at all the passages that clearly placed Jesus as above all of us (MGR included).

It wouldn't make sense that in one book he says, hey folks I'm the new Messiah, forget the old one. Then in another book, alright guys, we have only one leader, Jesus. And then write again a few books later, Forget whatever else you've heard, I'm King Ures, the New Jewish Messiah, follow me instead. --- Though one might argue he almost seems to do that.

So here is another question I have for you,

It's obvious that much of book nine was not written by MGR, but rather at a later date by someone wishing to glorify him. Obviously, there is also nothing to have stoped that same person or group of people from editing elsewhere in his writings (or the other writers'). Don't you think it is possible that some used his writings and altered them as necessary to create a type of "cult" around him?

I ask this, and consider it a reasonable possibility, because all the while the russian molokans had these "prophets" LS, DY, MGR, and EGK, unlike the exclusive groups today, they reached out to many, preaching (what I assume to have been) the true gospel to everyone in their path. They had the Bible only as their basis (even MGR suggests to use no other books) and accepted other revelations as inspired to give further direction, not for a new means of salvation but simply in guiding their lives in novel situations (i.e. into refuge, and other various situations).

Is it really the "prophets' " writings that should be attacked, or the cultish movements that have strayed from the truth? Consider how:

-- The "cultish" groups claim they are the only true believers and exclude others, while DY, MGR, and EGK all claimed there are believers around the WORLD and welcomed other ethnicities (such my church).

-- The "cultish" groups you say deny the divinity of Jesus, while DY, MGR, and EGK all claimed he was divine. (Though not necessarily in the Catholic Trinity, but in a Biblically arguable Trinity wherein there is a subordination of the divine members, Father > Son > Holy Spirit).

-- The "cultish" groups you say demand works to earn salvation, but DY, MGR, and EGK did not ever say this! They merely stressed, as both the Old and New Testaments do, that we should all strive for good works. And of course we know from a simple reading of the Bible that we are rewarded by our works. And even though it is indeed strictly grace that saves us, we are still told to keep the commandments.

I thought a major point of our "spiritual Christianity" was to get away from the false ritualism of the Orthodox Church whereby they earn their way to heaven?

Please understand I was never raised "maximist" and have never heard "maximist" preaching or anything like that, so when I look at the Dukh i Zhizn or our spiritual Christian heritage, I am not up to speed on how some people have twisted the truth. Consequently I interpreted the book in a way that fit what I understood to be true Christianity. I didn't picture LS, DY, MGR, or EGK to be any greater than any other prophet of the Bible, nor did I picture any of them serving any role different from that of a Biblical prophet.

Thankfully, if I do come to the conclusion that he or any of the other "prophets" were false ones, it will change very little since I was taught using strictly the Bible to justify all of our spiritual Christian beliefs.

It might do the Armenian and Russian molokan churches some good if we went back to practicing these beliefs.

I apologize for writing so much but it's hard not to with a topic like this.

I look forward to hearing your opinion!

seeking_truth_1 · April 9, 2008

It's been a bit busy over here, but I wanted to address your question howbeit brief with more to follow

So here is another question I have for you,
It's obvious that much of book nine was not written by MGR, but rather at a later date by someone wishing to glorify him. Obviously, there is also nothing to have stoped that same person or group of people from editing elsewhere in his writings (or the other writers'). Don't you think it is possible that some used his writings and altered them as necessary to create a type of "cult" around him?

Have the writings been altered...? absolutely. That's been demonstrated on this forum when later day "editors" left out and amended parts to make the compendium of writings "fit"

However, that raises the question, what do they "fit"

It is certainly not Christianity but a cultic perversion that utilizes the Christian name and that's where the similarities stop

The writings in context and their various forms have sprinklings of truth yet there are lies intermixed which results in spiritual poison

I'll address you other points shortly

All the best

Hey seeking_truth_1,
There certainly do appear to be some ideological connections between the mystics in that article and MGR's writings. I also notice some apparent similarities between his writings and the khlysti, and perhaps also the general millennialist movements of 19th century Russia.

If saying "the new Jewish Messiah" means to replace the "old" messiah (i.e. the true Messiah, Jesus) then certainly he's a false prophet.

However, the reason I didn't immediately throw him out as a false prophet was because he always writes that Jesus is superior. I recall he wrote that Jesus is the One True Shepherd, the son of God (even sharing in the deity of the Godhead), and that we are all to serve Jesus whom God sent as savior.

So when I came across passages that could very well be taken (although hopefully erroneously for his sake) as making him equal to Jesus or replacing him as you think he might be attemping, I also looked at all the passages that clearly placed Jesus as above all of us (MGR included).

It wouldn't make sense that in one book he says, hey folks I'm the new Messiah, forget the old one. Then in another book, alright guys, we have only one leader, Jesus. And then write again a few books later, Forget whatever else you've heard, I'm King Ures, the New Jewish Messiah, follow me instead. --- Though one might argue he almost seems to do that.

So here is another question I have for you,

It's obvious that much of book nine was not written by MGR, but rather at a later date by someone wishing to glorify him. Obviously, there is also nothing to have stoped that same person or group of people from editing elsewhere in his writings (or the other writers'). Don't you think it is possible that some used his writings and altered them as necessary to create a type of "cult" around him?

I ask this, and consider it a reasonable possibility, because all the while the russian molokans had these "prophets" LS, DY, MGR, and EGK, unlike the exclusive groups today, they reached out to many, preaching (what I assume to have been) the true gospel to everyone in their path. They had the Bible only as their basis (even MGR suggests to use no other books) and accepted other revelations as inspired to give further direction, not for a new means of salvation but simply in guiding their lives in novel situations (i.e. into refuge, and other various situations).

Is it really the "prophets' " writings that should be attacked, or the cultish movements that have strayed from the truth? Consider how:

-- The "cultish" groups claim they are the only true believers and exclude others, while DY, MGR, and EGK all claimed there are believers around the WORLD and welcomed other ethnicities (such my church).

-- The "cultish" groups you say deny the divinity of Jesus, while DY, MGR, and EGK all claimed he was divine. (Though not necessarily in the Catholic Trinity, but in a Biblically arguable Trinity wherein there is a subordination of the divine members, Father > Son > Holy Spirit).

-- The "cultish" groups you say demand works to earn salvation, but DY, MGR, and EGK did not ever say this! They merely stressed, as both the Old and New Testaments do, that we should all strive for good works. And of course we know from a simple reading of the Bible that we are rewarded by our works. And even though it is indeed strictly grace that saves us, we are still told to keep the commandments.

I thought a major point of our "spiritual Christianity" was to get away from the false ritualism of the Orthodox Church whereby they earn their way to heaven?

Please understand I was never raised "maximist" and have never heard "maximist" preaching or anything like that, so when I look at the Dukh i Zhizn or our spiritual Christian heritage, I am not up to speed on how some people have twisted the truth. Consequently I interpreted the book in a way that fit what I understood to be true Christianity. I didn't picture LS, DY, MGR, or EGK to be any greater than any other prophet of the Bible, nor did I picture any of them serving any role different from that of a Biblical prophet.

Thankfully, if I do come to the conclusion that he or any of the other "prophets" were false ones, it will change very little since I was taught using strictly the Bible to justify all of our spiritual Christian beliefs.

It might do the Armenian and Russian molokan churches some good if we went back to practicing these beliefs.

I apologize for writing so much but it's hard not to with a topic like this.

I look forward to hearing your opinion!

seeking_truth_1 · June 19, 2008

Regardless of the source or heavy editing that may have been done by people such as Danny-boy , the result still remains that there are those within the confines of a molokan "church" who advocate another way apart from Jesus and His finished work

AND

There are those who regard these writings in their entirety as Scripture when clearly all of the authors are doctrinally muddled

You cannot on one hand "glorify" Jesus and then on another seek to replace Jesus with another as Messiah

The inconsistancy is what should really bother those who seeking after truth

To semi-plagerize Johnnie Cochran...If it doesn't fit you must redact it

That is what revisionist cultic molokans have done

My hope is that people would seek out Truth as it is found in the Bible and use that as the benchmark instead of coming up with opinions and trying to make Scripture "fit"

So here is another question I have for you,
It's obvious that much of book nine was not written by MGR, but rather at a later date by someone wishing to glorify him. Obviously, there is also nothing to have stoped that same person or group of people from editing elsewhere in his writings (or the other writers'). Don't you think it is possible that some used his writings and altered them as necessary to create a type of "cult" around him?

seeking_truth_1 · March 20, 2009

TTT (To The Top)

seeking_truth_1 · October 10, 2009

However, the reason I didn't immediately throw him out as a false prophet was because he always writes that Jesus is superior. I recall he wrote that Jesus is the One True Shepherd, the son of God (even sharing in the deity of the Godhead), and that we are all to serve Jesus whom God sent as savior.

A false prophet is one who speak on behalf of God and what they speak does not come to pass

mgr, like other false prophets, made predictions about the Lord returning and establishing His kingdom on Earth for 1000 years before the 1900's

Well I hope you can agree that did not happen

So when I came across passages that could very well be taken (although hopefully erroneously for his sake) as making him equal to Jesus or replacing him as you think he might be attemping, I also looked at all the passages that clearly placed Jesus as above all of us (MGR included).

It wouldn't make sense that in one book he says, hey folks I'm the new Messiah, forget the old one. Then in another book, alright guys, we have only one leader, Jesus. And then write again a few books later, Forget whatever else you've heard, I'm King Ures, the New Jewish Messiah, follow me instead. --- Though one might argue he almost seems to do that.

The idea of being a "christ" was not unique to mgr but a teaching prevalent throughout history and was present during the 1800's in Russian as I have already cited

The idea of "special knowledge" obtained by "enlightened" people is nothing more the gnosticism

So here is another question I have for you,
It's obvious that much of book nine was not written by MGR, but rather at a later date by someone wishing to glorify him. Obviously, there is also nothing to have stoped that same person or group of people from editing elsewhere in his writings (or the other writers'). Don't you think it is possible that some used his writings and altered them as necessary to create a type of "cult" around him?

Of course...

The notion that people are "special" appeals to the flesh

The ability to effect this brainwashing requires

1) Isolation from society

2) Isolation from Biblical Truth

3) A charismatic "leader" who can tell the people anything because the are kept ignorant of what the Bible states about what is said

4) An atmosphere of fear created to control those who would ever consider to "stray" from the "teachings" of the group

Much like what you have with 21st century molokanism

Is it really the "prophets' " writings that should be attacked, or the cultish movements that have strayed from the truth? Consider how:
-- The "cultish" groups claim they are the only true believers and exclude others, while DY, MGR, and EGK all claimed there are believers around the WORLD and welcomed other ethnicities (such my church).

-- The "cultish" groups you say deny the divinity of Jesus, while DY, MGR, and EGK all claimed he was divine. (Though not necessarily in the Catholic Trinity, but in a Biblically arguable Trinity wherein there is a subordination of the divine members, Father > Son > Holy Spirit).

-- The "cultish" groups you say demand works to earn salvation, but DY, MGR, and EGK did not ever say this! They merely stressed, as both the Old and New Testaments do, that we should all strive for good works. And of course we know from a simple reading of the Bible that we are rewarded by our works. And even though it is indeed strictly grace that saves us, we are still told to keep the commandments.

If the "prophets' " writings are contrary to Scripture they need to be dealt with for what they are

This you will not find within 21st century molokanism

That wicked 2nd book is present on EVERY table in EVERY molokan "church"

Some view it a "scripture" and yet other may very well ignore it

Regardless, the book is STILL THERE and it should have NO PLACE in a Christian Church...period

As to these prophets claiming Jesus to be divine, they may have done so yet they would contradict that claim somewhere else in their writings

Regardless of the claims of these "prophets" 21st century molokanism still excludes people based upon ethnicity

If these "prophets" were of God, how can they promote the notion of "new israel" thereby excluding all those who are not part of this "elite" group?

I thought a major point of our "spiritual Christianity" was to get away from the false ritualism of the Orthodox Church whereby they earn their way to heaven?

Please understand I was never raised "maximist" and have never heard "maximist" preaching or anything like that, so when I look at the Dukh i Zhizn or our spiritual Christian heritage, I am not up to speed on how some people have twisted the truth. Consequently I interpreted the book in a way that fit what I understood to be true Christianity. I didn't picture LS, DY, MGR, or EGK to be any greater than any other prophet of the Bible, nor did I picture any of them serving any role different from that of a Biblical prophet.

I would be inclined to believe that was the case initially but, when the s&l and it's lies were introduced, things went off track

Also I have a problem with the tag "Spiritual Christianity" because Christianity by it's Biblical definition is Spiritual

The problem lies in the people not seeking after and exercising the Gifts of the Spirit

"As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1Peter 4:10 NKJV)

They are not taking their gift and "minister (ing) it to one another"

It's has become self indulgent ritualistic religion

They have forsaken simple Biblical truth and replaced it with a litony of rules and practices that have NO basis in Scripture

21st century molokanism has become worse than what they initially were trying to get away from

Hey seeking_truth_1,
There certainly do appear to be some ideological connections between the mystics in that article and MGR's writings. I also notice some apparent similarities between his writings and the khlysti, and perhaps also the general millennialist movements of 19th century Russia.

If saying "the new Jewish Messiah" means to replace the "old" messiah (i.e. the true Messiah, Jesus) then certainly he's a false prophet.

However, the reason I didn't immediately throw him out as a false prophet was because he always writes that Jesus is superior. I recall he wrote that Jesus is the One True Shepherd, the son of God (even sharing in the deity of the Godhead), and that we are all to serve Jesus whom God sent as savior.

So when I came across passages that could very well be taken (although hopefully erroneously for his sake) as making him equal to Jesus or replacing him as you think he might be attemping, I also looked at all the passages that clearly placed Jesus as above all of us (MGR included).

It wouldn't make sense that in one book he says, hey folks I'm the new Messiah, forget the old one. Then in another book, alright guys, we have only one leader, Jesus. And then write again a few books later, Forget whatever else you've heard, I'm King Ures, the New Jewish Messiah, follow me instead. --- Though one might argue he almost seems to do that.

So here is another question I have for you,

It's obvious that much of book nine was not written by MGR, but rather at a later date by someone wishing to glorify him. Obviously, there is also nothing to have stoped that same person or group of people from editing elsewhere in his writings (or the other writers'). Don't you think it is possible that some used his writings and altered them as necessary to create a type of "cult" around him?

I ask this, and consider it a reasonable possibility, because all the while the russian molokans had these "prophets" LS, DY, MGR, and EGK, unlike the exclusive groups today, they reached out to many, preaching (what I assume to have been) the true gospel to everyone in their path. They had the Bible only as their basis (even MGR suggests to use no other books) and accepted other revelations as inspired to give further direction, not for a new means of salvation but simply in guiding their lives in novel situations (i.e. into refuge, and other various situations).

Is it really the "prophets' " writings that should be attacked, or the cultish movements that have strayed from the truth? Consider how:

-- The "cultish" groups claim they are the only true believers and exclude others, while DY, MGR, and EGK all claimed there are believers around the WORLD and welcomed other ethnicities (such my church).

-- The "cultish" groups you say deny the divinity of Jesus, while DY, MGR, and EGK all claimed he was divine. (Though not necessarily in the Catholic Trinity, but in a Biblically arguable Trinity wherein there is a subordination of the divine members, Father > Son > Holy Spirit).

-- The "cultish" groups you say demand works to earn salvation, but DY, MGR, and EGK did not ever say this! They merely stressed, as both the Old and New Testaments do, that we should all strive for good works. And of course we know from a simple reading of the Bible that we are rewarded by our works. And even though it is indeed strictly grace that saves us, we are still told to keep the commandments.

I thought a major point of our "spiritual Christianity" was to get away from the false ritualism of the Orthodox Church whereby they earn their way to heaven?

Please understand I was never raised "maximist" and have never heard "maximist" preaching or anything like that, so when I look at the Dukh i Zhizn or our spiritual Christian heritage, I am not up to speed on how some people have twisted the truth. Consequently I interpreted the book in a way that fit what I understood to be true Christianity. I didn't picture LS, DY, MGR, or EGK to be any greater than any other prophet of the Bible, nor did I picture any of them serving any role different from that of a Biblical prophet.

Thankfully, if I do come to the conclusion that he or any of the other "prophets" were false ones, it will change very little since I was taught using strictly the Bible to justify all of our spiritual Christian beliefs.

It might do the Armenian and Russian molokan churches some good if we went back to practicing these beliefs.

I apologize for writing so much but it's hard not to with a topic like this.

I look forward to hearing your opinion!

seeking_truth_1 · October 10, 2009

By the way I forgot to metion that he "spiritual chrisitans" are the only ones who have the "truth"

"During his life on earth," according to the Molokanye, "Christ

founded the Church; at first it consisted of the Apostles and

later on of all who believed in him. But the true Christian

Church only endured down to the IVth Century, when the

ecumenical councils and the teachers of the Church by their

arbitrary interpretations of the Bible perverted the region and

imported into it pagan beliefs and rites. To-day the real

Church consists exclusively of the truly spiritual Christians,

who repudiate the traditions and canons of the doctors by which

the conciliar Church sets store, and profess what the Gospel

teaches and no more."

seeking_truth_1 · October 16, 2009

In reading more about the origins of the notion of "spiritual christianity" I'm not finding anything that is good

From Russian Dissenters Page 318-319

As early as 1765 the church consistory of Tambov labelled

them Molokanye because of their drinking milk during the

canonical fasts. The name stuck, and they interpreted it

themselves as meaning that the simple evangelical teaching on

which they fed was the Milk of the Word. In general they

called themselves as the Spiritual Christians, and they regard

themselves as the only true successors of the Church of the

first three centuries.

How can they be the ONLY true Church especially with practices that are wholly contrary to Scripture?

FYI

I thought a major point of our "spiritual Christianity" was to get away from the false ritualism of the Orthodox Church whereby they earn their way to heaven?

lastinline · April 21, 2010

'guest' date='Apr 7 2008, 11:46 PM' post='13970'

I thought a major point of our "spiritual Christianity" was to get away from the false ritualism of the Orthodox Church whereby they earn their way to heaven?

Please understand I was never raised "maximist" and have never heard "maximist" preaching or anything like that, so when I look at the Dukh i Zhizn or our spiritual Christian heritage, I am not up to speed on how some people have twisted the truth. Consequently I interpreted the book in a way that fit what I understood to be true Christianity. I didn't picture LS, DY, MGR, or EGK to be any greater than any other prophet of the Bible, nor did I picture any of them serving any role different from that of a Biblical prophet.

Thankfully, if I do come to the conclusion that he or any of the other "prophets" were false ones, it will change very little since I was taught using strictly the Bible to justify all of our spiritual Christian beliefs.

It might do the Armenian and Russian molokan churches some good if we went back to practicing these beliefs.

I apologize for writing so much but it's hard not to with a topic like this.

I look forward to hearing your opinion!

Hey, where did you go, or was this just a big smoke screen? I would be quite interested in some follow-up from you. You seem to a least, partially mixed-up. You say our "spiritual Christianity" as if you are a part of it. Can we possibly get some clarity, are you a practicing Molokan? What conclusion did you come to about the s&l writers?

lastinline

seeking_truth_1 · January 21, 2012

To the top

lastinline · January 21, 2012

To the top

NO, if you want to play games, I'm pretty good at it too.

lastinline (& sometimes playing playful games)

seeking_truth_1 · January 22, 2012

What in the world are you talking about?

Bringing this to the top had NOTHING to do with you nor is it all about you

It was for guest "wondering"

The Post Is Here

To the top

NO, if you want to play games, I'm pretty good at it too.

lastinline (& sometimes playing playful games)

January 24, 2012

All I can say is WOW. This is the first time I have ever heard about this. Not the prophecy from last August...I heard about that. To be totally truthful I have always thought the triangle on the front of the s & l book looked strange. Not sure why, maybe because I knew I'd never understand what it was. I'm a simple christian but reading all this past history just turns my stomach if it's true. The bible says nothing about this kind of devotion or worship to our Lord Jesus and Father God. Thanks for pointing it out!

What in the world are you talking about?

Bringing this to the top had NOTHING to do with you nor is it all about you

It was for guest "wondering"

The Post Is Here

To the top

NO, if you want to play games, I'm pretty good at it too.

lastinline (& sometimes playing playful games)

seeking_truth_1 · January 24, 2012

The "new israel" heresy is where the "special" or "exclusivity" comes from

As you stated, you couldn't understand why there were "different" Christians

, I was always puzzled by the open hostility towards other outside christians. Why we were not to talk or befriend them, why ne-nash were not allowed in the house and they were "different" than us. I always wondered why the open attempt at setting us apart from christians when we should be uniting under the name of Jesus. Again, I am thinking of the chosen people phrase I always hear and how we have to keep to our heritage and teachings of the forefathers

If you do some research, you'll find very non-Christian roots to many aspects of molokanism especially in this area

The open hostility is because "ne-nash" Christians are "pagans" in the eyes of the "new israel"

There are some books you can find online that cover this topic in very unflattering terms

That is why Biblical Christianity and the cult of molokanism are incompatible

For the Christian, you need to be in study and fellowship with people who do not hold to these heretical views

How can one have Christian fellowship with someone who does not hold the same core Christian beliefs

There is the familial aspect of a "reunion" or social gathering. You can see and speak with people you've known a long time BUT that IS NOT Christian fellowship if they deny God's plan the redemption of man

That's not to say you can't reach out to those still there but, for the Christian, the cult of molokanism cannot be regarded as Church

All I can say is WOW. This is the first time I have ever heard about this. Not the prophecy from last August...I heard about that. To be totally truthful I have always thought the triangle on the front of the s & l book looked strange. Not sure why, maybe because I knew I'd never understand what it was. I'm a simple christian but reading all this past history just turns my stomach if it's true. The bible says nothing about this kind of devotion or worship to our Lord Jesus and Father God. Thanks for pointing it out!

seeking_truth_1 · July 23, 2014

(to the top)

GoodDay · July 24, 2014

The "new israel" heresy is where the "special" or "exclusivity" comes from

As you stated, you couldn't understand why there were "different" Christians

QUOTE

, I was always puzzled by the open hostility towards other outside christians. Why we were not to talk or befriend them, why ne-nash were not allowed in the house and they were "different" than us. I always wondered why the open attempt at setting us apart from christians when we should be uniting under the name of Jesus. Again, I am thinking of the chosen people phrase I always hear and how we have to keep to our heritage and teachings of the forefathers

If you do some research, you'll find very non-Christian roots to many aspects of molokanism especially in this area

The open hostility is because "ne-nash" Christians are "pagans" in the eyes of the "new israel"

There are some books you can find online that cover this topic in very unflattering terms

That is why Biblical Christianity and the cult of molokanism are incompatible

For the Christian, you need to be in study and fellowship with people who do not hold to these heretical views

How can one have Christian fellowship with someone who does not hold the same core Christian beliefs

There is the familial aspect of a "reunion" or social gathering. You can see and speak with people you've known a long time BUT that IS NOT Christian fellowship if they deny God's plan the redemption of man

That's not to say you can't reach out to those still there but, for the Christian, the cult of molokanism cannot be regarded as Church

QUOTE (Wondering #### Jan 23 2012, 08:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All I can say is WOW. This is the first time I have ever heard about this. Not the prophecy from last August...I heard about that. To be totally truthful I have always thought the triangle on the front of the s & l book looked strange. Not sure why, maybe because I knew I'd never understand what it was. I'm a simple christian but reading all this past history just turns my stomach if it's true. The bible says nothing about this kind of devotion or worship to our Lord Jesus and Father God. Thanks for pointing it out!

QUOTE

", I was always puzzled by the open hostility towards other outside christians. Why we were not to talk or befriend them, why ne-nash were not allowed in the house and they were "different" than us. I always wondered why the open attempt at setting us apart from christians when we should be uniting under the name of Jesus. Again, I am thinking of the chosen people phrase I always hear and how we have to keep to our heritage and teachings of the forefathers"

I was able to hang out with Non-Molokan friends in school, but was always taught there was something "different" about us and heard speeches in church basically downing everyone out there that was not Molokan, especially Mexicans and Blacks and Asian as time went one. Very mixed in school about having to keep a distance from girls.

Actually I guess we that God has called out of molokanism and them that still will be called out don't have to worry about "Ne-Nash" being polluted or defiled by the words of molokanism due to the fact that it's garbage and most molokans couldn't give a clear understanding of what is "different," except tor man's traditions, and the book of the devil on the table etc..

The next 10 years will show even a greater deterioration as it's just man against God trying to keep things going. Language won't be around much longer except in memorized praying chants and singing,

And yes, True Christianity and molokanism are not compatible. What's so sad is them that know falseness to be truth see their religion as superior even when they don't quite know what it is they believe.

If ANY molokan today eats garlic or onion they they are in breaking ALL the molokan rules and sadly how do they get saved?

July 26, 2014

If ANY molokan today eats garlic or onion they they are in breaking ALL the molokan rules and sadly how do they get saved?

You must be a Davidist. Us Maximisti have no such rules.

Garlic and onions are especially good with Borcht.

GoodDay · July 26, 2014

If ANY molokan today eats garlic or onion they they are in breaking ALL the molokan rules and sadly how do they get saved?

You must be a Davidist. Us Maximisti have no such rules.

Garlic and onions are especially good with Borcht.

Well that's a relief to hear.

Onion and garlic are good on pepperoni pizza too!

John1717 · July 26, 2014

If ANY molokan today eats garlic or onion they they are in breaking ALL the molokan rules and sadly how do they get saved?

You must be a Davidist. Us Maximisti have no such rules.

Garlic and onions are especially good with Borcht.

Do you get to make borscht with garlic and onions at your church for a dzela?

Garlic and onions boiled in the broth for lapsha makes it better too.

GoodDay · July 26, 2014

If ANY molokan today eats garlic or onion they they are in breaking ALL the molokan rules and sadly how do they get saved?

You must be a Davidist. Us Maximisti have no such rules.

Garlic and onions are especially good with Borcht.

Do you get to make borscht with garlic and onions at your church for a dzela?

Garlic and onions boiled in the broth for lapsha makes it better too.

Maximist,

Seems we all here have found a common ground?

Why don't we build on this?

It's a breath of fresh air to hear you talk about reality in things such as Garlic and onions.

Good question from John 1717! How much do you but in at a dela?

July 31, 2014

While dating would you eat garlic or onions?

John1717 · July 31, 2014

While dating would you eat garlic or onions?

Yep. Then chew some gum.

seeking_truth_1 · January 4, 2017

To the top

October 2, 2017

Maxcim Gavorilovich Tsar Duhov!

seeking_truth_1 · October 2, 2017

That's nice

You forgot pedophile too

October 3, 2017

you are the pedophile if you think of a nee chist thought like that, he is a martyr and without him our sluzhenia wouldnt be here today. Unless you are from a different faith.

seeking_truth_1 · October 3, 2017

But what about his own words where he had multiple children in bed "thrusting and grinding"?

Do I need to cite those passages?

October 3, 2017

Who are you? thats not a very christian like attitude, show where it is written.We should all think politely of those who represented our molokan faith, not in a bashing way, but a supporting spiritual way.

seeking_truth_1 · October 3, 2017

I do not make unfounded claims

Unfortunately the facts can be difficult to accept

You should also add to the mix polygamy

A much more comprehensive account of this can be found here:

http://www.molokan.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=219836&view=findpost&p=248882

This section from the originals of Maxim G. Rudometkim starts at the beginning of that which is called the forteenth (14) book, third (3) chapter in the 1928 edition of the Spirit and Life. And continues until the end of the bk 14 manuscrip. (Contains chap 3, 4, 2:I-XVII, 7:1-3 3/4, & 27)

“This is about all of my newly acquired wives who I will write about here, in detail, about their union and separation from me. To begin with, I’ll mention how they were first joined to me and how, at that time, we were publicly joined in wedlock, by God himself and the Spirit of His Christ, together with the blessing given by laying on of hands of all their parents and also the prophetic word of the witness and activity of the spirit through Emilian, the prophet, who publicly joined me to them by the union of our willing HOT LOVE, producing an eternal, unseparable, holy new covenant, like a key and its lock, and the immortal life in both our loins, for 1000 years.

For this reason, we, in His holy union, all ate and drank together and almost all slept in the same bed together and verily, in this holy matrimony, we all KISSED AND THRUST TOGETHER, producing great joy, as the Spirit inspired us to do and as is befitting any everlasting wedlock. But the key was not put into the lock, for the time had not yet come for that. God had not yet told us to do that, just as in Adam and Eve's case in the Paradise. This was done by the serpent, but not by God, so I stood strong and did not allow their will, before the proper time, to taste of the forbidden fruit and did not give them the key. But I waited for all of that as God, by the spirit, had told me to do. To this then are many witnesses, almost all of my chosen people who believe in me.

And they were all completely happy with these, my spiritual marriages, and willing to wait for intercourse with me, as I was their holy husband. The first of these, my beloved wives, was Stenya and Varya and the rest like unto them, who now in my absence, inspired by Satan himself and without taking account of our eternal holy new marriage, almost all of them, suddenly, because of their defiled lustfulness, have lifted their adulterous tails to the dogs like a bitch in heat. And all of them took themselves husbands who are not their lawful husbands but adulterous sons of Satan in bodily form, for which reason in these god-despised mismatches, they now indulge in adultery, like unclean beasts or defiled swine, and have become demon-possessed, by God's will. For this reason, any children born of them are cursed or like the bastard children of prostitutes and all of these unlawful children are consigned, by God, to everlasting death without chance of resurrection, as it is written, without respite. And anyone who, today, will beat them, God will make holy for it.

It would have been better for all of you, my new wives, to have never known this, my new path, which is eternal for all who walk it rightly. For it is true, not false, just like an arrow, straight to Zion, destined. But you did not desire it but chose, instead, to go the way of adultery, like cattle with bulls or you with your cursed husbands. You have forgotten me, your God-annointed husband and king. For you all know very well what my spirit always clearly told you that you would not seek another husband besides me and not to give your virginity or holy Eve-like chastity to any deceiving serpent but only to me, your Adam. For WHAT YOU HAD SECRETED IN YOU WAS MEANT ONLY FOR ME, your God-given husband. For this reason, I am filled with wrath for you, for you have all defiled yourselves and joined yourselves with cursed demons everywhere and I can have patience with you no longer.

Only because of your need for salvation will I change my curse upon you but your husbands and children will eternally be cursed of me, and them, I will wipe off the face of the earth. But you, I'll again receive eternally, as wives, so as not to gratify this evil spirit of Satan, or to say, Simon Rudakoff and Maxim Plenin and Vasili Sikitin, for I remember that you were my eternal wives and concubines, like King Solomon within his worldwide kingdom.

Although it is very repugnant and defiling this, your devilish evil, in which you, in my absence, allowed demons to be delivered into you, but I will clean all of this with the sword and fire, off of your outer man, but inwardly I will apply my own salve and HEAL YOU DOWN THERE. Then, in the wrath of my spirit, for your defilement of me, through your demon-possessed adultery, I'll give you all different names…not good names but perverted and even foul ones.

First, Stenkoo, I will name Idessa, in that she, for the longest time, in my absence, was compelled to lie entirely [under the demon] for the sake of his demonic adultery. And likewise, Varookhoo, I will name Akhvatoosya, in that she, in her own desire, because of her own adultery, stretched herself fully naked, completely for the demon. Leksookhoo, I will name Pikhtoosya, in that she disobeyed me and found for herself, for the sake of powerful adultery, right to the very bottom, the pushy demon. Doonookhoo, I will name Nakhmanisa, in that she, without my permission, the swine, stretched her ass willfully, right onto the demon. Vasookhoo, I will name Akhtanisa, in that she, in carnal adultery, fell in love, willfully, directly with the demon. Manookhoo, I will name Zhamelyoosya, in that she, willfully, adulterously, allowed [into her self] the hot demon. Groonyookhoo, I will name Pertagoosya, in that she, not of her own initiative, with the love of her flogged ass lifted [it] up for adultery for a fat demon. All of you equally, bypassed me and strongly defiled yourselves in this eternal demonic adultery.

For this reason, you are not worthy to receive, with me, the primary glory in Israel and to be called with the holy seven names, according to the count of the seven spirits of God, which had been appointed to you by me before the creation of the world. Verily, these names will be given to my other new wives who are undefiled virgins, but you, I appoint now to only please me in physical union, or to more directly say, with such pumping of your much-used, broken woman's stomachs.

The children I will begat through you will be everlastingly blessed, as David did to his wife when she returned home to him. But if any of you will not submit to me or have my children, then those, right now, together with their demon-husbands, I'll kill and I'll do the same thing with all those blasphemers and adulterers against this true spirit and those who hate me, the king of the world, like Simon and Levin, because of their sister, Denya, or like King David, because of his wife, Michal, or maybe even more harshly, as in David's 100th Psalm: 'For these adulterers, with others' wives, always have judgment of death placed on them by God Himself.' For as the holy Apostle Paul said, 'a [married] woman is tied to her living husband, by the law, until his death and only then can she be joined to another' [nor is she permitted to commit adultery with other men].

And now, because of you and what you've done, I must AGAIN, a second time, choose out seven new wives, all chosen, undefiled virgins, which, for eternity, will not know the bed of another husband but me. And so I, their new husband, King [their youlia], will place them over you like mistresses and queens according to the Psalm in which David sings about presenting a queen on your right, in luxurious raiment, and they will lead forth the king of virgins unto her, unto the house of the king and under the crown of the glory of all Israel....and immortality for all of us for 1000 years. And so I, in my day, with the aid of the holy spirit and the will of my God, will [immutably, unchangeably] give all seven of these, my new wives, eternal holy names according to the title of their new heavenly names, [equally] by the number of the seven spirits of God that eternally abide upon me."

seeking_truth_1 · October 3, 2017

By the way, if you've read the thread, this guy was "king of the new israel" well before mgr was even born

Thaddeus Grabianka (1740 -1817)

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Grabianka&prev=search

This information call also be found in other sources

How can someone from Poland (nee-nash) also be "king" of the same thing?

October 3, 2017

im afraid you happen to be a little confused, the 7 wives he writes are the 7 spirits of god that he is devoted to, like a husband is devoted to a wife. AXMETAL, CAVAKVAN, GELEGEL, ENFAEL, YOULIASAR,YOURECA,FETMAEL. each spirit has it qualities, love, ogon paliesh, plamen neugasaema. words that may help in this understanding is song 916 or 917 vot ya novi youlia.

dont forget the 10 commandments state honor your father and your mother, this includes our heavenly father, his son, and as well as our predkie.

October 3, 2017

let us not forget he is king of new israel (molokans) not the old israel (Jews) as moses or anyother prophet is to outside faiths.

seeking_truth_1 · October 3, 2017

A few things

1) If you say is a metaphor, how does a person pass seed to a metaphor? Thrust and grind a metaphor?

2) Where are 7 spirits of God in the Bible named like this?

3) Where in the Bible is the sexualization of the role of the of the Holy Spirit?

The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord (Isaiah 11:2).

Could it be the different ways the Holy Spirit works according to Isaiah and not 7 different spirits?

According to the Bible there is only ONE Holy Spirit

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:11)

Also the names appear different AND certainly appear to be describing physical people engaging in physical acts

First, Stenkoo, I will name Idessa, in that she, for the longest time, in my absence, was compelled to lie entirely [under the demon] for the sake of his demonic adultery. And likewise, Varookhoo, I will name Akhvatoosya, in that she, in her own desire, because of her own adultery, stretched herself fully naked, completely for the demon. Leksookhoo, I will name Pikhtoosya, in that she disobeyed me and found for herself, for the sake of powerful adultery, right to the very bottom, the pushy demon. Doonookhoo, I will name Nakhmanisa, in that she, without my permission, the swine, stretched her ass willfully, right onto the demon. Vasookhoo, I will name Akhtanisa, in that she, in carnal adultery, fell in love, willfully, directly with the demon. Manookhoo, I will name Zhamelyoosya, in that she, willfully, adulterously, allowed [into her self] the hot demon. Groonyookhoo, I will name Pertagoosya, in that she, not of her own initiative, with the love of her flogged ass lifted [it] up for adultery for a fat demon. All of you equally, bypassed me and strongly defiled yourselves in this eternal demonic adultery.

For this reason, you are not worthy to receive, with me, the primary glory in Israel and to be called with the holy seven names, according to the count of the seven spirits of God, which had been appointed to you by me before the creation of the world. Verily, these names will be given to my other new wives who are undefiled virgins, but you, I appoint now to only please me in physical union, or to more directly say, with such pumping of your much-used, broken woman's stomachs.

October 3, 2017

how does one who is not pure recieve a title king of the spirits, and annointed by God to be the leader of new isreal, and is a representative of the 3rd face? surely the lord wouldnt allow that to happen to anyone, especially one who defiles his own body. I believe there is something in that passage we both dont understand, that is where we ask the elders of the molokan church for guidence and understanding on this specific writting. Fasting and praying can open our eyes and minds in a clean way in order to find the answers to this. DONT FORGET, many writtings in the duh i zhizn kniga solntsa with no understanding from us,will be revealed in time and prophecy.

seeking_truth_1 · October 3, 2017

Question:

Who gave mgr the title "king of spirits" and where can that be found in the Bible?

Didn't he give himself that title?

Pg. 465 Bk. 9 Art. 15 Ver. 7
Therefore I, Maxim, am now called by His new name: King of Spirits and God of the faithful of all the land

Pg. 467 Bk. 9 Art. 17 Ver. 1-2
Our most-honored and beloved brother, out of them all, the final principal hero and king of the entire world. For he is an eternal heir to the throne of the earthly Kingdom of Christ for a 1000 years. By name he is Maxim G. Rudometkin.

This title too

Pg. 580 Bk. 13 Art. 6 Ver. 1-2
Thus I [M.G.R.] am called by a new name, which I have written here in the lines for you by the testimony of the true Spirit.
The first name is Enfayil--firm God. The second is Savakhan--King of the promise. The third is Ulia-Yar--the Prince of Peace, father of the age hereafter.

The Bible states differently

Isaiah 9:6
For a child [Christ] will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders: And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

What about this title?

Pg. 268 Bk. 4 Art. 1 Ver. 13
"how am I [M.G.R] to blame if God Himself and His Son Jesus Christ chose me from among all the nations, and anointed me with their Holy Spirit as the third feature, their eternal Melchizedek, to be the chief and leader of the new Israel!"

The Bible states differently

Hebrews 7:17
For it is witnessed of Him [Christ], "Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."

October 4, 2017

pg 547 writes, how humble he is, not seeking glory for himself until a newer generation comes along, we dont know who that is. as well a he is not boastful, saying he is smaller in stature and the beauty of his face has withered away. That is the most humble earthly king ive ever known of myself.

seeking_truth_1 · October 4, 2017

What about the other writings I cited?

Also, humility does not include:

Pg. 571 Bk. 12 Art. 14 Ver. 3
For thereupon I [M.G.R.] will be exalted higher than any King of Priest.

Pg. 498 Bk. 10 Art. 8 Ver. 7
For I am Ulesar, the king Ures, the new Jewish Messiah. And the Jew and all the tribes of the nations shall bow down [worship] to me.

Pg. 503 Bk. 10 Art. 14 Ver. 4
Of whom I [M.G.R.] am the first and the last, as the God of the earth.

Does humility include spelling out being the greatest, calling yourself god or requring worship?

By the way, the Bible contradicts this

Who is the first and the last?

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega — the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come — the Almighty One.”

October 4, 2017

do not forget, king David a figure that people overly praise, defiled Bathsheba, we sing praises, his psalms he wrote, and not at all do people remember his errors, but they remember the misunderstood writings of our leader and criticizes him for something that they don't understand.

seeking_truth_1 · October 4, 2017

You're justifying mgr's likening himself to God because David was an adulterer and murderer?

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where ANYONE used of God likened themselves to God?

Moses?

Abraham?

Paul?

John?

The only one who did was Satan saying he shall be like the most high

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O shining star, son of the morning!
You have been thrown down to the earth,
you who destroyed the nations of the world.
13 For you said to yourself,
‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars.
I will preside on the mountain of the gods
far away in the north.
14 I will climb to the highest heavens
and be like the Most High.’ Isaiah 14

October 4, 2017

it was the will God for our predkie to be who they were intended to be, it is the will of God for us to quarrel over this, it is the will of God for some of the writings in the duh i zhizn to not be revealed, why would a believer of God as yourself, want to contradict Gods will?

seeking_truth_1 · October 4, 2017

You're not answering my question(s)

How does mgr's claims to be like God and behavior line up with the Bible?

Passing seed?

Thrusting and grinding?

Polygamy?

I do not agree with you taking literal behavior as a metaphor for something else

Whenever the Bible uses a metaphor, there is a meaning

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. Matthew 23:37

Is Jesus claiming to be a bird?

Of course not...

October 4, 2017

Are you stoning our prophets like jerusalem did, or are u like zion and listens to their prophets? this was an otkrisha in young church 4 weeks ago. Im sorry to say but you are stoning a messenger of God

seeking_truth_1 · October 4, 2017

Again, you are not answering my question(s)

Firstly, I'm not "stoning" anyone

I'm simply pointing out their words and asking to contrast them against what the Bible teaches

Because of HIS own words I said

mgr is a pedophile

You asked where that can be found

I cited the passages and you claim they are a metaphor

I then asked

1) If you say is a metaphor, how does a person pass seed to a metaphor? Thrust and grind a metaphor?

2) Where are 7 spirits of God in the Bible named like this?

3) Where in the Bible is the sexualization of the role of the of the Holy Spirit?

You ignored all of those questions and claimed mgr is the 3rd face of God and affirmed him to be "king of spirits"

I then asked who gave mgr the title "king of spirits" and where can that be found in the Bible? I asserted he named himself that

You ignored all of that and made a case for mgr's humility

I responded with mgr's own words a certain lack of humility and asking does humility include claiming to be the greatest, calling yourself god or requring worship?

I also asserted mgr calling himself the first and the last contradicts the Bible

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega — the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come — the Almighty One.”

You ignored all of that saying David was a horrible person too so as to justify mgr's perverse behavior

I then asked for you to cite ANYONE in the Bible who was used of God calling themselves God

The only one that did so was Satan and cited the passage from Isaiah

What's next?

October 4, 2017

accept that God anointed him for a reason, and then go to a MOLOKAN church and get shown something about this. Almost every elder accepts his writings, why is it this generation is throwing them away? EVERY MOLOKAN CHURCH'S OBRIAD RELYS ON THESE WRITINGS BECAUSE WITHOUT THEM WE ARE OF THE 666 FALSE CHRISTIAN FAITHS, THOSE WITH FALSE PROPHETS AND THOSE THAT ARE NOT RECOGNIZED AS THE WOMAN CLOTHED IN THE SUN!

seeking_truth_1 · October 4, 2017

Hang on a second...

What if those writings contrdict the Bible?

I usually try and keep it simple when it come to issues of Faith

There are doctrinal issues and then issues of preference

Let's start here:

Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God?

seeking_truth_1 · October 25, 2017

No response at all?

October 26, 2017

Hang on a second...

What if those writings contrdict the Bible?

I usually try and keep it simple when it come to issues of Faith

There are doctrinal issues and then issues of preference

Let's start here:

Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God?

The bible is full of errors and the Word of God is not a book.

seeking_truth_1 · October 26, 2017

Okay...

Who is the Word of God?

1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 ¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

October 27, 2017

21 hours ago, seeking_truth_1 said:

Okay...

Who is the Word of God?

1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 ¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

As our pamaznik teaches that Jesus Christ Himself is the Word of God. Why do you call the scriptures the word of God?

seeking_truth_1 · October 27, 2017

Okay...

and the Word was God.

seeking_truth_1 · October 27, 2017

You do understand there are different words in the Greek for "word"

seeking_truth_1 · October 28, 2017

1 ¶ Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart.
2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4

The disciples "handled" Jesus?

October 28, 2017

Not to the disciples. One must first be a disciple before he can be a teacher.

To the Apostles, were entrusted the mysteries of the kingdom of God.

"Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful."

The Word became flesh and was made manifest in man.

Not the word of God became a letter.

The rest, that they might be humbled are not to think beyond what is written.

October 28, 2017

The law was the schoolmaster unto Christ. Those who mishandled it were the worthless servants.

The gospel was veiled to those who mishandled the law of God .

The Eternal Gospel is only given to those who walk in integrity in the precepts of the Lord. Psalm 119

seeking_truth_1 · October 28, 2017

Blither, blather, huh...?

Who is the Word?

November 2, 2017

Where can I find a copy of the translated first edition S&L? I would love to highlight the sections that were left out of the 2nd edition.

November 7, 2017

why would someone who loves the lord break one of the commandments of honoring your father and mother? Shouldnt that include our forefathers? Christ was who they stood up for.

seeking_truth_1 · November 7, 2017

Forefather worship has nothing to do with honoring your parents

More false religion like the religious Jews who denied Jesus as Messiah

seeking_truth_1 · November 7, 2017

On 11/2/2017 at 11:47 PM, Guest Guest said:

Where can I find a copy of the translated first edition S&L? I would love to highlight the sections that were left out of the 2nd edition.

There are parts here online

I'll need to look around a bit

seeking_truth_1 · November 7, 2017

http://www.molokan.net/forum/index.php?/topic/1255-response-to-otkroveniya-22/&do=findComment&comment=106899

Kabbalah In The Doctrine Of Russian Freemasonry and Molokanism

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