Nick Shubin 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2006 The molokan belief system is exactly what this discussion boils down to Please define molokanism and it tenets What does a molokan man/woman believe with an eye toward differentiating between doctrine versus distinctives Items that are essential for Salvation as opposed to culture, traditions or method/style of worship For example: 1) Speaking only in Russian 2) Singing acapella (without instruments) 3) Marrying only russian molokans 4) Denying other races to join and participate in molokan church services Thanks This is long, but here ya go. This was published in 1910, now how many of todays churches hold to this? I don't know. DOGMAS "Principles of the True Spiritual Christian Russian Molokans, Since 1803. Comprising 27 Articles" "Articles are translated and printed word for word from the Prayerbook of the Spiritual Christian Molokans, 3rd edition. Published in 1910 by M. P. Lezin. Douay* Version of the Bible used for reference. Words in Parenthesis, King James Version." "* A full English translation of the Russian texts quoted throughout the Articles may be seen in the Douay version of the Bible. Thes texts will be found to correspond, chapter and verse." EDITORS NOTE: The 6th commandment, "Thou shalt not kill," which constitutes one of the main cornerstones of the Molokan religion was for some reason omitted in the above articles. The Editor suspects that the censorship rules existing at the time Lezin's Prayer-Book ws published [1910] had prevented the publisher from covering this all-important subject. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All notes are shown here in RED ITALICS. The above is the exact title and description as published in the Molokan Review 1948 and 1949, by Paul Ivan. Samarin, Los Angeles, editor. The Lezin Prayer book apparently was handwritten or published somewhere in Russia. These 27 translated articles were republished for the first time in June 1982 when 1,000 copies -- as a 2-sided, 18" x 9", folded brochure-- were reproduced "as is" from Samarin and distributed free by The Molokan Directory, Clovis CA. The Douay translation is "used for reference" because it corresponds word for word with the Russian Bible used by Molokans. Both the Douay and Russian Bibles are identical because they are derived from the Greek version of the Bible, others used the Latin Bible. In the late-1990s, American - Molokan - Jumper presbyters in Los Angeles addressed a problem presented by many members who were called for jury duty and could not show any historic document declaring that Molokans objected to judging others in crimes or capital punishment. Since the American - Jumpers had no concise statement of their dogma to deliver to the Los Angeles County council of judges, they amended what they could find -- the translated exerpt from Lezin's Prayerbook. In about 2000, the translation was slightly edited and 2 articles were added to satisfy the missing court requirements for a declaration of faith. The 29 amended articles were reprinted and distributed without any reference indicating when or why they were reprinted or changed, or where they came from. Here is a summary of the changes and edits: many translations were edited: at beginning of the title 2 words were added: "Tenets and" underlines indicate letters capitalized or deleted: him square brackets [--] indicate spelling or translation changes the labels of 3 articles were changed: #15 was made plural #19 changed from "Affusion and Purification" to "Cleansing" #27 changed from "Our Sect" to #28 - "Our Faith" 2 new articles were added near the end: # 27 - "Do Not Judge" to address jury duty #29 - "Thou Shall not Kill" Editorial comments on this web page are shown in RED ITALIC font. If anyone knows anything different about the history of these Dogma, please send in additions and corrections. If anyone has Lezin's Prayerbook, could you please send in a copy of these Dogma in Russian, so I can display the original Russian side-by-side with the translation. If anyone wants a printed copy of the 1982 reprint, let me know. -- Thanks, Andy Conovaloff -- This page last updated on February 2003. [Tenets and] Principles of the True Spiritual Christian Russian Molokans Since 1803 29 Articles 1. God 2. Prayer 3. Church 4. Placing a Sign of the Cross 5. Images of Saints 6. Bishops and Priests 7. Using the Ornates 8. Sacrificial Offerings 9. The Throne 10. Censer and Incense 11. Vessels 12. The Baptism 13. Naming of an Infant 14. Anointment 15. The Holy Communion 16. Repentance 17. Marriage 18. Crowns 19. Affusion and Purification [Cleansing] 20. Fasting 21. Funerals of the Dead 22. Resurrection of the Dead 23. Commemoration of the Dead 24. Seventh Day 25. Kings and Authorities 26. Added: [Do Not Judge] 27. Oath -- formerly #26 28. Our Sect [Our Faith]-- formerly #27 29. Added: [Thou Shalt Not Kill] Article 1 - God We believe in only one God, who exists in Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as Apostle St. Paul said in his epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter 2, verse 20, "Built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone." And Christ said in Matthew, Chapter 28, verse 19, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Article 2 - Prayer Our praying consists of our prayers to Christ in prophetic and apostolic prayers, according to the order of God's son to his disciples, as it is written in Matthew 6:9, "Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name." Luke 11:2, "And he said to them: When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come." Ephesians 6:18, "By all prayer and supplication, praying at all times in the spirit ..." Luke 22:41, "...and kneeling down, he prayed." Apostle Paul, Acts 21:5, "And we kneeled down on the shore, and we prayed." ***** 6:10 "...he knelt down three times a day, and adored (prayed), and gave thanks before his God..." In John 4:23-24, our Saviour said to a woman from Samaria: "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers (worshippers) shall adore (worship) the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore [worship] him. God is a spirit; and they that adore [worship] him, must adore [worship] him in spirit and in truth." In the epistle of Jude 1:20 is written: "But you, my beloved, building yourselves upon your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost." Article 3 - Church As a church we consider a congregation of people according to the testimony of Paul, the Apostle in his 2nd epistle, to Corinthians 6:16, "...For you are the temple of the living God. As God saith: I will dwell in them, and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Also Leviticus 26:12.) In the Acts 17:24, "...He, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands. Neither is he served with men's hands..." On the same subject is testified in the following: I Corinthians 14:26, "...When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done to edification." In I Peter 2-5, "Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." In Ephesians 3:10, "That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church." Ephesians 5:27, "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." In Acts 20:7 and 11, "...Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow; and he continued his speech until midnight ... and having talked a long time to them, until daylight, so he departed." From St John in the Apocalypse (Revelations) 19:5, "And a voice came out from the throne saying: "give praise to our God, all ye his servants; and you that fear him, little [small] and great." In Hebrews 9:24, "For Jesus is not entered into the holies [holy places] made with hands..." Isaias [isaiah] 66:1, "Thus saith the Lord: Heaven is my throne, and the earth my footstool; what is this house that you will build to me, and what is this place of my rest?" Article 4 - Placing a Sign of the Cross We do not place upon ourselves a visible sign of the cross, but we are indicating ourselves as promised by the Holy Ghost according to the testimony of the Holy Scripture, Wisdom 16:6, "...having a sign of salvation to put them in remembrance of the commandment of thy law. For he that turned to it was not heated by that which he saw, but by thee, the Savior of all," Isaiah 66:19, "And I will set a sign among them, and I will send of them that shall be saved..." Acts 11:28, "And on of them named Agabus, rising up, signified by the Spirit..." Matthew 28:19, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." To the Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption." Article 5 - Images of Saints The ikons [icons], the images of saints, made by human hands, we do not worship, according to the Holy Scripture. 4 Kings 17:41, "So these nations feared the Lord, but nevertheless served also their idols..." Psalm 113:4-5, "The idols of the Gentiles are silver and gold, the works of the hands of men. They have mouths and speak not; they have eyes and see not..." Psalm 134:15, "The idols of the Gentiles are silver and gold, the works of men's hands." Wisdom 13:10, "...who have called gods the works of the hands of men, gold and silver..." In the same book of Wisdom 14:8-9, "But the idol that is made by hands, is cursed, as well it, as he that made it; he because he made it; and it because being frail it is called a god. But to God the wicked and his wickedness are hateful alike." See Isaias [isaiah] 44:12-18, Jeremiah 2:27, "Saying to a stock: Thou art my father..." Apocalypse [(Revelation)] 9-20, "...that they should not adore [worship] devils and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and wood..." Wisdom 14:27, "For the worship of abominable idols is the cause, ..." Apostle Paul has said to the Romans 1:22-23, "For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man..." According to the testimony of the Apostle Paul, Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." Romans 8-29, "For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son;..." I Peter 2:21, "For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps." Epistle of James 5:10, "Take, my brethren, for an example of suffering evil, of labor and patience..." To the Philippians 3:17, "Be ye followers of me, brethren, and observe them who walk so as you have our model." I Timothy 4:12, "...but be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conduct, in charity, in faith, in chastity." Titus 2:7-8, "In all things show thyself an example of good words, in doctrine, in integrity, in gravity. The sound word that can not be blamed: that he, who is on the contrary part, may be afraid..." See Hebrews 1:3, II Thessalonians 3:9, "...but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us." Article 6 - Bishops and Priests We have only one Priest and Bishop, who sits on the right side of God, i.e., the Son of God, the Head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23). Ephesians 1:20-22, "Which he wrought in Christ, raising him up from the dead, and setting him on his right hand in the heavenly places, above all principality, and power, and virtue, and dominion ... and he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church." Psalm 2:7, "The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee." Psalm 109:4, "...Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech [Melchizedek]." Hebrews 5:10, "Called by God a high priest according to the order of Melchisedech [Melchizedek]." This one we call bishop and priest according to the word of the Holy Scripture, Hebrews 4:14-15, "Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities, but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin." Hebrews 7:26, "For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who needeth not daily (as the other priests) to offer sacrifices..." In the same book 8:1, "... We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of majesty in the heavens." The Apostles have imitated the Christ and have been purified by the Holy Ghost. Acts 20:28, "Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood," Ephesians 4:11, "And he gave some to be apostles, and some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, which in our religion appear in the image of man or old men according to the word of scripture by Jesus, the son of Sirach in Ecclesiasticus [Ecclesiastes] 37:15. "But be continually with a holy man, whomsoever thou shalt know to observe the fear of God." Jeremiah 5:1, "...if you can find a man that executeth judgment, and seeketh faith..." In Chapter 9, verse 12, "Who is the wise man, that my understand this, and to whom the word of the mouth of the Lord may come..." I Timothy 2:8, "I will therefore that men pray in every place..." I Peter 5:1-2, "The ancients therefore that are among you ... Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking care of it, not by constraint, but willingly..." Article 7 - Using the Ornates We have no ornates, because the Apostles had no special dress for divine services and Jesus Christ himself did not create such vestments. As the holy Apostles have wandered in plain clothes, so we are also praying in our regular garments. Concerning the use of ornates we take it for granted to be always clothed for salvation and always be dressed with truth according to Ephesians 6:19, "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice." Ecclesiastes 9:8, "At all times let thy garments be white, and let not oil depart from thy head." Isaiah 69:17, "...he put on the garments of vengeance, and was clad with zeal as with a cloak." And in 61:10, "...my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, and with the robe of justice..." Revelations 3:4-5, "...which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, because they are worthy. He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father..." Article 8 - Sacrificial Offerings We offer a sacrifice in every place a sacrifice of praise as the fruit of our lips according to the testimony of the prophet, Malachias [Malachi] 1:11, "...and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered in my name a clean offering..." Hebrews 13:15-1 6, "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise always to God, that is to say, the fruit of lips confessing to his name. And do not forget beneficence and neighborliness, for by such sacrifices God's favor is obtained." David in Psalm 5:17 says: "A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit, a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 40:6, "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire..." Psalm 60:14, "Offer to God the sacrifice of praise, and pay thy vows to the most High." Of the same is said in the book of Prophet *****, 3:38-39, "Neither is there at this time prince, or leader or prophet, or holocaust, or sacrifice, or offering, or incense, or place of first-fruits before thee. That we may find thy mercy: nevertheless in a contrite heart and humble spirit let us be accepted." Prophet Isaiah 56:7, "...their holocausts, and their sacrifices shall please me upon my altar; for my house shall be called the house of prayer..." In 66:20 the Lord says: "...as if the children of Israel should bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord." Ephesians 5:2, "... as Christ also hath loved us, and hath delivered himself for us, and offering and a sacrifice to God for an odor of sweetness." Hebrews 9:26, "...but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself." Such sacrifices we also imitate. Article 9 - The Throne The Throne testifies a prudent man according to Lord's word as it is said in the books of Prophet Isaiah 16:5, "And a throne shall be prepared in mercy, and one shall sit upon it in truth..." Proverbs 12:23, "A cautious man concealeth knowledge..." Read Jeremias [Jeremiah] 14:21. Ezechiel [Ezekiel] 43:7, "Said to me: Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever..." Zecharias [Zechariah] 6:13, "... and shall sit, and rule upon his throne..." Proverbs 26:5, "...and His throne shall be established with justice." Jeremias [Jeremiah] 3:17, "At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the Lord..." The Apocalypse 21:3, "... Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people: and God himself with them shall be their God." Article 10 - Censer and Incense Incense and Censer we regard in prayer according to the word of the Scripture, Psalms 14.2, "Let my prayer be directed as incense in thy sight..." Ephesians 5:2, "... and a sacrifice to God for an odor of sweetness." The Apocalypse 8:3, "... and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God." II Corinthians 2:14-15, "Now thanks be to God, who always maketh us to triumph in Christ Jesus, and manifesteth the odor of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are the good odour of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish." Article 11 - Vessels We consider as vessls on Divine Services the lips of the reasonables according to the word of the Scripture. Proverbs 20:15, "There is gold, and a multitude of jewels: but the lips of knowledge are a precious vessel." Psalms 71:22, "For I will also confess (praise) to thee thy truth with the instruments of psaltery..." Isaias [isaiah] 52:11, "... be ye clean, you that carry the vessels of the Lord." Acts 9:15, "And the Lord said to him: Go thy way, for this man is to me a vessel of chosen to can my name before the Gentiles..." I Corinthians 10:16, "The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?" Article 12 - The Baptism With regard the baptism as a repentance and remission of sins according to the testimony of the Holy Scripture Mark 1:4, "John was in the desert baptizing and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins." And in 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned." Acts 13:23-24, "...hath raised up to Israel a Saviour, Jesus. John first preaching before his coming, the baptism of penance..." Acts 22:16, "...Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name." Romans 6:3, "Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized into his death?" I Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." Verse 18, "For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness: but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God." Hebrews 6:2, "Of the doctrine of baptisms, and laying on of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Acts 1:5, "For John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence." Luke 3:16, "John answered, saying unto all: I indeed baptize you with water; but there shall come one mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to loose; He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Article 13 - Naming of an Infant By giving names to infants we are acting in compliance with God's word. Luke 1:59, "... on the eight day they came to circumcise the child, and they called by his father's name Zachary. And his mother answering said: Not so, but he shall be called John." Exodus 2:22, "...whom he called Eliezer..." So we also act regardless of what date the infant is born, his father and mother and relatives give the name to the newborn infant. Article 14 - Anointment The anointment testifies the oil of joy, according to God's word. Psalms 45:9, "...therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Habakkuk 3.13, "Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people; for salvation with thy Christ (thine anointed)..." Acts 4:27, "For of a truth there assembled together in this city against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed..." And in 10:38, "Jesus of Nazareth: how God anointed him with the Holy Ghost, and with power..." I St. John 2:20, "But you have the unction from the Holy One..." II Corinthians 1:21-22, "...and that hath anointed us, is God; Who also hath sealed us, and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts." Article 15 - The Holy Communion We regard the Holy Communion as a divine and blessed Sacrament according to the word of the Holy Scripture. Psalm 119:63, "I am a partaker [friend] with all them that fear thee, and that keep thy commandments." Hebrews 6:4, "...have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, have moreover tasted the good word of God." Chapter 3, verse 1, "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly vocation..." Verse 14, "For we are made partakers of Christ..." 12:10, "...that we might receive his sanctification." Deuteronomy 8:3, "...not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God." Proverbs 12:14, "By the fruit of his own mouth shall a man be filled with good things..." Wisdom 16:26, "...not the growing of fruits that nourisheth men, but Thy word preserveth them that believe in Thee." Ecclesiasticus [Ecclesiastes] 15:3, "With the bread of life and understanding, she shall feed him, and give him the water of wholesome wisdom to drink..." John 6:27, "Labour not for the food which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you..." Verse 64, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing..." Psalm 34:8, "O taste, and see that the Lord is sweet..." Psalm 118:50 [119:50], "...because thy word hath enlivened me." I Corinthians 10:17, "For we, being many, are one, one body, for we all that partake of one loaf." Verse 30, "If I partake with thanksgiving, why am I evil spoken of for that which is give thanks?" Article 16 - Repentance As a repentance we testify the baptism to redeem our sins, according to the testimony of the Holy Scripture, Psalm 110:1 [111:1], "I will praise thee, O Lord, with my whole hears; in the council of the just, and in the congregation." Psalm 118:62 [119:62], "I rose at midnight to give praise to thee; for the judgments of Thy justifications" I John 2:1, "...But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the just; and he is the propitiation for our sins..." Hebrews 3:1, "... consider the apostle and high priest of our confession, Jesus." James 5:16 "Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be saved..." Article 17 - Marriage In matrimonial covenant we betroth in truth, grace, kindness and faith. God Himself hath said to man and wife, Genesis 1.28, "...Increase and multiply, and fill the earth..." Genesis 2:24, "Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall be two in one flesh." Read Matthew 19:3-9. Ephesians 5:22 and Verse 24, "Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord... Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things." Verse 25, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church..." We betroth according to the book of Tobias Chapter 7:10-15, "I will not eat nor drink here this day, unless thou first grant me my petition, and promise to give me Sara, thy daughter ... that this maid might be married to one of her own kindred, according to the law of Moses ... And taking the right hand of his daughter, he gave it into the right hand of Tobias...." Paul the Apostle in I Corinthians 7:27, "Art thou bound to a Wife? Seek not to be loosed..." To the alliance in marriage the groom and the bride present themselves in the assembly of people and betroth themselves in faith, in truth, in benevolence and in grace forever, and between them is concluded the promise not to separate, but get old together. This is performed in the presence of fathers and mothers and witnesses. Then they perceive each other as man and wife. Article 18 - Crowns We consider the crowns as a resistance to lust, and crown our life to preserve the truth and hope to obtain the crown, life, joy, hope, the diversity of sacrifices according to the Scripture. Ecclesiastes 1:11, where the crowns are called "crown of joy." In Verse 22, "crown of wisdom." In 25:8, "Much experience is the crown of old men,..." Isaias [isaiah] 28:5, "...the Lord of hosts shall be a crown of glory, and a garland of joy to the residue of his people [all who long for his appearing]." II Timothy 4:8, "...there is laid up for me a crown of justice..." Apocalypse 2:10, "...and I will give thee the crown of life." Article 19 - Affusion and Purification [Cleansing] Under Affusion [Cleansing] and Purification we understand not the material ones, but we endeavor to clean ourselves from every blot of body and spirit. Through the Purification of heart from cunning conscience, as it is said in the Scripture: Hebrews 10:22, "Let us draw near with a true heart in fullness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience..." II Corinthians 7:1, "...let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God." Isaias [isaiah] 45:8, "Drop down dew, ye heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain the just; let the earth be opened and bud forth a Savior; and let justice spring up together..." Isaias [isaiah] 4:4, "...Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Sion [Zion], and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Jeremias [Jeremiah] 4:14, "Wash thy heart from wickedness, O Jerusalem, that thou mayst be saved..." 6:16, "...and see, and ask for the old paths, which is the good way, and walk ye in it; and you shall find refreshment for your souls..." I Corinthians 6:11, "...but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God." Ephesians 5:26, "That he might sanctity it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life." Article 20 - Fasting We keep the Fast according to the example of Jesus Christ, the Prophets and the Apostles. Prophet ***** 10:2-3, "In those days I ***** mourned for three weeks. I ate no desirable bread, and neither flesh, nor wine entered into my mouth, neither was I anointed with ointment, till the days of three weeks were accomplished." In the 3 [3rd] Book of Esdras is said, that Esdras has kept on fasting for seven days. David has also been fasting, as we can see in Psalm 109:24 where he says: "My knees are weakened through fasting; and my flesh is changed for oil (faileth of fatness) [body is thin and gaunt]." The Prophet Joel 2:12, "Now therefore saith The Lord, be converted to me with all your heart, in fasting..." Zechadah 8:19, "Thus saith The Lord of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth..." Such Fasts we also approve and submit ourselves to Fast, according to our possibility [strength], for four and five days, and even a week, we do not take bread and water, but the blessed food, we eat any time according to the testimony of the Holy Scripture: Leviticus 11:3, "Whatsoever hath the hoof divided, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, you shall eat." I Timothy 4:3-5, "...to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be rejected that is received with thanksgiving; For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." We do not observe any other Fasts, and Fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays we do not accept at all. We honor more Spiritual Fasts according to the words of Scripture: Isaias [isaiah] 58:3-9, "Why have we fasted, and thou hast not regarded: have we humbled our souls, and thou hast not taken notice? Behold in the day of your fast your own will is found, and you exact of all your debtors ... Is not this rather the fast that I have chosen? Loose the bands of wickedness, undo the bundles that oppress, let them that are broken go free and break asunder every burden. Deal thy bread to the hungry, and bring the needy and the harbourless into [the shelter of] thy house; when thou shalt see one naked, cover him, ...and thy justice shall go before thy face, and the glory of the Lord shall gather thee up." Article 21 - Funerals of the Dead Over the deceased, after the departure of the soul from the body, we have vigil in prayers and the singing of Psalms of King David and on burial we accompany the body of the dead, weeping and singing of psalms to the very grave, after the word of the Scripture: Psalms 145 [146], "Praise the Lord, O my soul, in my life I will praise the Lord: I will sing to my God as long as I shall be." Psalms 23:1 [24:1], "The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof: the world, and all they that dwell therein." Psalm 83:4 [84:3], "My soul longeth and fainteth for the courts of the Lord..." Acts 8:2, "And devout men took order for Stephen's funeral [buried Stephen], and made great mourning over him." Ecclesiasticus [Ecclesiastes] 38:16, "My son, shed tears over the dead..." "Verse 17, "...Weep bitterly ... and make mourning for him according to her merit..." Verse 24, "When the dead is at rest, let his remembrance rest, and comfort him in the departing of his spirit." Article 22 - Resurrection of the Dead We believe in life beyond the grave and after the death we hope to resurrect in another body according to the testimony of the Scripture: II Corinthians 5:l, "For we know, if our earthly house of this habitation be dissolved, that we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in heaven." I Corinthians 15:50-52, "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess (inherit) incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall indeed rise again [not all sleep but we shall all be changed] ... In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed." Zecharias [Zechariah] 14:12, "...the flesh of every one shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." Mark 12:26, Jesus said: "And as concerning the dead that they rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living,.." John 5:28-30, "...for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And they that have one good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment." The Apocalypse 20:12, "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne..." 21:1, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth..." 3d and 4th Verse, "...Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and He will dwell with them...And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more..." Article 23 - Commemoration of the Dead We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins will be forgiven, an example of what we see in God's word. Judah Machabee has offered a sacrifice for the dead. 2 Book Machabee 12:43, "...he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins..." (Read also verse 44.) Baruch 3:4-5, "O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel ... Remember not the iniquities of our fathers, but think upon thy hand, and upon thy name at this time." Article 24 - Seventh Day The Seventh Day we honor according to the testimony of the Scripture: Leviticus 23:3, "...the seventh day, because it is the rest of the sabath [a Sabbath of rest and], shall be called holy. You shall do no work on that day..." Sophonias [Zephaniah] 3:8, "Wherefore expect me, saith the Lord, in the day of my resurrection that is to come..." Mark 16:9, "But he rising early the first day of the week..." This day we devote to prayers and good deeds, according to the word of the Scripture. Colossians 3:16, "...teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles [words]..." (Read also Ephesians 5:19.) James 1:22, "But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only..." Article 25 - Kings and Authorities We honor the kings and authorities according to the testimony of God's word. Proverbs 8:15-16, "By me kings reign, and lawgivers decree just things, by me princes rule, and the mighty decree justice." Romans 13:1-2, "Let every soul be subject to higher powers; for there is no power but from God, and those that are, are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God..." I Peter 2:17, "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." I Timothy 2:1-2, "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings, and for all that are in high stations (authority)..." [Article 26 - Do Not Judge] Added about 2000 [The prophets of old depict Christ as the ultimate judge, Psalms 89:14, 97-2, Isaiah 11:1-5, of God's law. Christ pronounced devastating judgements against false leaders, John 7:24. Yet He refused to become a judge in matters affecting man's material possessions, Luke 12:13-14. Jesus clearly states that we are not to judge. To pass judgement implies a sense of moral superiority that we simply do not possess. What we are not to do in judging is to criticize others while passing over our own faults. James 4:11-12. Hence, we as Christian Molokans, cannot serve on a jury.] Article 27 - Oath We understand the Oath by testimony of Matthew 5:34-37, where is said, "But I say to you not to swear at all, neither by heaven ... nor by the earth ... neither shalt thou swear by thy head ... but let your speech be yea, yea; no, no; and that which is over and above these, is of evil." The Apostle James in his Epistle 5:12, says, "... But let your speech be yea; yea, no, no;..." For this reason we always preserve faithfulness. Article 28 - Our Sect [Faith] In our sect [Faith] exists the confirmation [affirmation] to all multitude of people, that lewdness, adultery, drunkenness, murder, robbery and all other sinful deeds, we destroy [reject] and who of our fellow-believers does not obey, is ousted from our congregation according to the testimony of Apostle Paul I Epistle, Corinthians 5:11, "But now I have written to you, not to keep company, if any man that is named brother, be a fornicator, or covetous, or a server of idols, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner: with such a one, do not so much as to eat." This is always corroborated in our congregation, that the duty of christianity is not to nurse any evil feelings against your next one [one another]. We are endeavoring [endeavor] to eliminate all quarrel and discord from the congregation and reconciliate with one another before sunset, because the malice of a man is an old and deep rooted wrath. And if a man not reconciles [does not reconcile] soon with his malice [brother], so it is converted into a sin, according to the testimony of the Holy Scripture, where it is said in Ephesians 4:26-27, "...Let not the sun go down upon your anger. Give not place to the devil." He who keeps malice and wrath against his next one [brother], so the devil (i.e. the spirit of malice) has conquered and leads him as his prisoner. The malice is born by [of] the envy, as Cain for envy's sake has killed his brother Abel. We are endeavoring with all our power not to admit such things in our sect [Faith]. And to begin before praying our principal (the Presbyter) reminds the congregation, as it is written: Matthew 5:23-24, "If therefore thou [you] offer thy [your] gift at the after, and there thou remember that thy [your] brother hath something against thee [you], leave there thy [your] offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy [your] brother, and then coming [come and] thou shalt offer thy [your] gift. [Article 29 - Thou Shalt Not Kill] Added about 2000 [The Sixth Commandment, Exodus 20:13, is one of the cornerstones of our Faith. In the Book of Genesis it is said: Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood will be shed: For in the image of God He made man. Genesis 9:6. For this reason every murder, which ever one it might be, and however it may have occurred is a sin against The Lord God. No murderer has eternal life, I John 3:15. Also, Jesus said, "All that draw the sword, shall die by the sword." Matthew 26:52.] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LTTBT 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2006 That's what I was going to post, thanks poop Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Shubin 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2006 thanks poop Dang...i really need to change my screenname! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 10, 2006 Nice sentiments, but how do those things align with Scripture? I see some glaring errors from a Biblical standpoint especially the things added in 2000 and those that cite basis in the apocrypha Other articles are not Doctrine but rather distinctives based upon traditions It would appear the earlier writings (circa 1803) were an attempt to differentiate molokans from the russian orthodox/catholic church. Items such as making the sign of the cross, incense, robes and other such garments, images of saints etc... Some have merit, yet others are Biblical misinterpretations There are also a couple of things I see missing. There isn't any mention of: 1) MGR and his writings 2) Jumping/quaking as a manifestation of the Spirit 3) Russian being the only acceptable language I guess this is a start Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steadfast 0 Report post Posted October 11, 2006 This is long, but here ya go. This was published in 1910, now how many of todays churches hold to this? I don't know. DOGMAS "Principles of the True Spiritual Christian Russian Molokans, Since 1803. Comprising 27 Articles" This sounds like something a disgruntled "Russian Orthodox Christian Want To Be" would dream up. It's still Heinz 57 theology even without Maxim's teachings which came at a later point. The problem still remains today... Biblical Illiteracy. Believers are not here to fix things, but to plant things, seeds of truth. It boils down to choosing to follow Jesus of Nazareth, or Jesus of Nikitino. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EGK 0 Report post Posted October 13, 2006 seeking_truth_1 said: Nice sentiments, but how do those things align with Scripture? I see some glaring errors from a Biblical standpoint especially the things added in 2000 and those that cite basis in the apocrypha Other articles are not Doctrine but rather distinctives based upon traditions It would appear the earlier writings (circa 1803) were an attempt to differentiate molokans from the russian orthodox/catholic church. Items such as making the sign of the cross, incense, robes and other such garments, images of saints etc... Some have merit, yet others are Biblical misinterpretations There are also a couple of things I see missing. There isn't any mention of: 1) MGR and his writings 2) Jumping/quaking as a manifestation of the Spirit 3) Russian being the only acceptable language I guess this is a start I believe you have left out the facts concerning when and where and who wrote these dogmas of 1803. These as you know are written by Russian peasants of the Christoverie persuasion in which the Molokans come out of. Mostly being illiterate peasant serfs and tradesmen were just trying to survive. Theses people were living in a cauldron of different belief systems in 1803 in southern Russia. Amongst the differnt beliefs that were surrounding them were the Mennonites, Moslems, Doukhobors, Pagan, Orthodox, German, Catholic, Adventist, Baptist and many more, This was also a time of war in the area and they were just recently moved out of their homes in central Russia for not being of the Orthodox Russian persuasion. Also they were surrounded by the Tartars and Armmenians who robbed, pillaged and killed as a part of their lifestyle. These people had only the Russian Bible from the Orthodox church to use, which includes the apochrophal books as you know. MGR was not even on the scene yet, jumping and quaking were not a part of their services and yes being Russian, they had to use the Russian language exclusively because that is all they knew. It is nice of you to notice that these dogmas have some merit! But they did not have the resources that you do today of peace and security to judge them by. A good meal and a nice house and car we have, they did not. They did not have all the different scholarly tools to work with which you have today nor the different versions of the bible. No computers and no scholars to gleam wisdom from other than their own illiterate hearts, which were busy with just surviving. No different translations of schools of religous thought and no libraries to gather information from other than their own Russian bibles. It is easy for us to condem them for their inaccuracies in the comfort of our rich lifestyle of today. All I ask of you or anyone else is to judge this work by the surroundings in which it was written. And to ask yourself did not these forefathers of ours do the best they could with what they had and more so of ourselves who live today with all of our abundance and knowledge, are we doing as well as they did. EGK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Shubin 0 Report post Posted October 13, 2006 Nice sentiments, but how do those things align with Scripture? I see some glaring errors from a Biblical standpoint especially the things added in 2000 and those that cite basis in the apocrypha Other articles are not Doctrine but rather distinctives based upon traditions It would appear the earlier writings (circa 1803) were an attempt to differentiate molokans from the russian orthodox/catholic church. Items such as making the sign of the cross, incense, robes and other such garments, images of saints etc... Some have merit, yet others are Biblical misinterpretations There are also a couple of things I see missing. There isn't any mention of: 1) MGR and his writings 2) Jumping/quaking as a manifestation of the Spirit 3) Russian being the only acceptable language I guess this is a start I believe you have left out the facts concerning when and where and who wrote these dogmas of 1803. These as you know are written by Russian peasants of the Christoverie persuasion in which the Molokans come out of. Mostly being illiterate peasant serfs and tradesmen were just trying to survive. Theses people were living in a cauldron of different belief systems in 1803 in southern Russia. Amongst the differnt beliefs that were surrounding them were the Mennonites, Moslems, Doukhobors, Pagan, Orthodox, German, Catholic, Adventist, Baptist and many more, This was also a time of war in the area and they were just recently moved out of their homes in central Russia for not being of the Orthodox Russian persuasion. Also they were surrounded by the Tartars and Armmenians who robbed, pillaged and killed as a part of their lifestyle. These people had only the Russian Bible from the Orthodox church to use, which includes the apochrophal books as you know. MGR was not even on the scene yet, jumping and quaking were not a part of their services and yes being Russian, they had to use the Russian language exclusively because that is all they knew. It is nice of you to notice that these dogmas have some merit! But they did not have the resources that you do today of peace and security to judge them by. A good meal and a nice house and car we have, they did not. They did not have all the different scholarly tools to work with which you have today nor the different versions of the bible. No computers and no scholars to gleam wisdom from other than their own illiterate hearts, which were busy with just surviving. No different translations of schools of religous thought and no libraries to gather information from other than their own Russian bibles. It is easy for us to condem them for their inaccuracies in the comfort of our rich lifestyle of today. All I ask of you or anyone else is to judge this work by the surroundings in which it was written. And to ask yourself did not these forefathers of ours do the best they could with what they had and more so of ourselves who live today with all of our abundance and knowledge, are we doing as well as they did. EGK Thankyou! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 13, 2006 EGK I do not agree with your statement Quote ask yourself did not these forefathers of ours do the best they could with what they had and more so of ourselves who live today with all of our abundance and knowledge, are we doing as well as they did. I would have to say no 19th century Russia was less primitive than the 1st century AD To say that our forefathers did the best they could given the circumstances while they were accepting glaring heresies is not an excuse Abram had less to go on than the Russians yet his faith was accounted unto him as righteousness "And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD declared him righteous because of his faith." (Genesis 15:6 NLT) It was a simple childlike faith that God honored "So, you see, it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that there is a God and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him." (Hebrews 11:6 NLT) God, by his Holy Spirit, will guide and teach anyone who is willing and seeking after him "25 I am telling you these things now while I am still with you. 26 But when the Father sends the Counselor as my representative““and by the Counselor I mean the Holy Spirit““he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I myself have told you. 27 "I am leaving you with a gift““peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give isn`t like the peace the world gives. So don`t be troubled or afraid." (John 14:25-27 NLT) His Spirit is the same today as in the 19th century as well as the 1st His Spirit works regardless of circumstances and the fact I have a house and a meal does not add to Gods ability to work "12 always thanking the Father, who has enabled you to share the inheritance that belongs to God`s holy people, who live in the light. 13 For he has rescued us from the one who rules in the kingdom of darkness, and he has brought us into the Kingdom of his dear Son. 14 God has purchased our freedom with his blood and has forgiven all our sins. 15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation. 16 Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can`t see““kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him. 17 He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together." (Colossians 1:12-17 NLT) Since God created everything and is holding it all together, He is more than capable to guide and direct anyone willing to seek after him regardless of their circumstances Paul was held in one of the worst prison environments that could be thought of called the Mamertine Prison He was without any basic necessities and had to rely upon others for those things Yet he was able to pen Scripture without any of todays modern conveniences, a home or a hot meal... "11 Only Luke is with me. Bring Mark with you when you come, for he will be helpful to me. 12 I sent Tychicus to Ephesus. 13 When you come, be sure to bring the coat I left with Carpus at Troas. Also bring my books, and especially my papers." (2 Timothy 4:11-13 NLT) EGK said: seeking_truth_1 said: Nice sentiments, but how do those things align with Scripture? I see some glaring errors from a Biblical standpoint especially the things added in 2000 and those that cite basis in the apocrypha Other articles are not Doctrine but rather distinctives based upon traditions It would appear the earlier writings (circa 1803) were an attempt to differentiate molokans from the russian orthodox/catholic church. Items such as making the sign of the cross, incense, robes and other such garments, images of saints etc... Some have merit, yet others are Biblical misinterpretations There are also a couple of things I see missing. There isn't any mention of: 1) MGR and his writings 2) Jumping/quaking as a manifestation of the Spirit 3) Russian being the only acceptable language I guess this is a start I believe you have left out the facts concerning when and where and who wrote these dogmas of 1803. These as you know are written by Russian peasants of the Christoverie persuasion in which the Molokans come out of. Mostly being illiterate peasant serfs and tradesmen were just trying to survive. Theses people were living in a cauldron of different belief systems in 1803 in southern Russia. Amongst the differnt beliefs that were surrounding them were the Mennonites, Moslems, Doukhobors, Pagan, Orthodox, German, Catholic, Adventist, Baptist and many more, This was also a time of war in the area and they were just recently moved out of their homes in central Russia for not being of the Orthodox Russian persuasion. Also they were surrounded by the Tartars and Armmenians who robbed, pillaged and killed as a part of their lifestyle. These people had only the Russian Bible from the Orthodox church to use, which includes the apochrophal books as you know. MGR was not even on the scene yet, jumping and quaking were not a part of their services and yes being Russian, they had to use the Russian language exclusively because that is all they knew. It is nice of you to notice that these dogmas have some merit! But they did not have the resources that you do today of peace and security to judge them by. A good meal and a nice house and car we have, they did not. They did not have all the different scholarly tools to work with which you have today nor the different versions of the bible. No computers and no scholars to gleam wisdom from other than their own illiterate hearts, which were busy with just surviving. No different translations of schools of religous thought and no libraries to gather information from other than their own Russian bibles. It is easy for us to condem them for their inaccuracies in the comfort of our rich lifestyle of today. All I ask of you or anyone else is to judge this work by the surroundings in which it was written. And to ask yourself did not these forefathers of ours do the best they could with what they had and more so of ourselves who live today with all of our abundance and knowledge, are we doing as well as they did. EGK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EGK 0 Report post Posted October 15, 2006 Seeking: I thank you for your comments. I give glory to our Lord Jesus Christ for all that you said and I respect your opinion. All of these great men of faith were also just men who lived and were used of God for His glory. Their lives were also full of sin and also made great mistakes in ignorance as we know from the bible stories of them. I will not judge them nor any one else for trying to do the best that they can for their faith under any circumstances. Christ has not given me this place in this world or the next. I am a man full of sin myself and am not worthy of the grace that God has given me through His son our Lord Jesus Christ. I guess, I tend to admire builders more than critics, doers more than talkers. EGK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steadfast 0 Report post Posted October 15, 2006 Seeking: I thank you for your comments. I give glory to our Lord Jesus Christ for all that you said and I respect your opinion. All of these great men of faith were also just men who lived and were used of God for His glory. Their lives were also full of sin and also made great mistakes in ignorance as we know from the bible stories of them. I will not judge them nor any one else for trying to do the best that they can for their faith under any circumstances. Christ has not given me this place in this world or the next. I am a man full of sin myself and am not worthy of the grace that God has given me through His son our Lord Jesus Christ. I guess, I tend to admire builders more than critics, doers more than talkers. EGK How long has the Holy Spirit been guiding believers to truth regardless of their circumstances. I don't think it's right to make excuses because of material shortcomings. The Holy Spirit is the great equalizer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 15, 2006 I can understand wanting to provide some grace given the potentially difficult living conditions and lack of formal education However, when it comes to such core doctrinal issues is there any room for error when it comes to Eternity? Even if you were to allow for the errors in the past, what is the excuse for those living today that still support these dogmas as "doctrine"? I do not see how someone in the 21st century can blindly accept these articles as Biblical and be excused from the personal responsibility to verify their "faith" against what the Bible teaches Again, His Spirit is the same today as in the 19th century as well as the 1st There certainly isn't rampant illiteracy within the molokan community today as there may (or may not) have been in the 1800 when the articles were penned What is the excuse for the articles added recently? Why is that "cauldron of different belief systems" still bubbling today? EGK said: Seeking: I thank you for your comments. I give glory to our Lord Jesus Christ for all that you said and I respect your opinion. All of these great men of faith were also just men who lived and were used of God for His glory. Their lives were also full of sin and also made great mistakes in ignorance as we know from the bible stories of them. I will not judge them nor any one else for trying to do the best that they can for their faith under any circumstances. Christ has not given me this place in this world or the next. I am a man full of sin myself and am not worthy of the grace that God has given me through His son our Lord Jesus Christ. I guess, I tend to admire builders more than critics, doers more than talkers. EGK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EGK 0 Report post Posted October 15, 2006 Seeking! You are full of questions and so am I. Why do the Adventists not change from having services on Saturday and quit living only partially in the Law? Why do the Catholics elevate Mary to the status of Mother of God and pray to statues? Why did not the Jews recognize the Messiah when they had direct revelation from God and the Prophets? Why do the Orthodox both, Greek and Russian believe still so much in their religious ceremony. Why does a nation of under God kill babies by abortion? Why do TV evangelists steal from Spiritually starving people and parade their wealth in front of everyones eyes? How can millions of people watch Benny Hinn and believe in his TV staged miracles. This list can go on and on for past failures and recent ones for all religious bodies, not only the Molokans. As you see and know their are many questions to ask for which we cannot give adequate answers. Except that this is not our world and that we are only passing through it. For me I can be a worker to improve what we have, a follower of what is, or a critic who can only complain on the sidelines. These are choices we all must make! God Bless you, I always enjoy our discussions! EGK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted January 31, 2007 Seeing as these Dogmas were added to in about 2000, I would have to believe that these are beliefs still held to some degree Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Report post Posted February 3, 2007 What's the difference? Do words not harm, or kill? Practice what you preach. M******** U********** turned into a fiasco with you on board. hhmm...i asked to be removed from MU about a year ago. If by me not accepting your god maxcim, and not agreeing with your gnostic beliefs, and standing on the word of God found in the bible (which you attempt to discredit at any given opportunity) caused a fiasco, oh well... He does have a small point, seeking is usually the first one on here to start the name calling...and you don't say a word. Side question here, do you accept the 1803 Molokan Dogmas? Remember, those aren't Pryguny...they are also Postyanni. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Shubin 0 Report post Posted February 4, 2007 What's the difference? Do words not harm, or kill? Practice what you preach. M******** U********** turned into a fiasco with you on board. hhmm...i asked to be removed from MU about a year ago. If by me not accepting your god maxcim, and not agreeing with your gnostic beliefs, and standing on the word of God found in the bible (which you attempt to discredit at any given opportunity) caused a fiasco, oh well... He does have a small point, seeking is usually the first one on here to start the name calling...and you don't say a word. Side question here, do you accept the 1803 Molokan Dogmas? Remember, those aren't Pryguny...they are also Postyanni. I have stated my case against jerry springer type antics to no avail. Because Seeking calls names and pokes fun at others that makes it ok for you to do it also? I'm not avoiding your question regarding the 1803 dogmas, but i'd like to see your stance first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted February 10, 2007 Looks like you didn't get an answer from them or Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Shubin 0 Report post Posted February 10, 2007 Looks like you didn't get an answer from them or Jerry Bah Ha Ha Ha! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted February 10, 2007 Sorry, but I couldn't help it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted December 5, 2007 Born a molokan and die one... What is a molokan? Is it a cultural indentifier? Is it a social indentifier? Does molokan equal Chrstian? NO ONE has been able to define what a molokan is especially as it relates to Christianity So guest, are you up to the challenge to define what molokan is AND whether it's Biblically Christian? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted January 11, 2009 Seeing as these dogmas are somehow looked upon as tenets of the molokan faih, perhaps we should bring this thread to the top again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2009 Was Moses wrong in pointing people to God to resolve their conflicts? 13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening. 14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even? 15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God: 16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws. (Exodus 18:13-16 KJV) [Article 26 - Do Not Judge] Added about 2000 [The prophets of old depict Christ as the ultimate judge, Psalms 89:14, 97-2, Isaiah 11:1-5, of God's law. Christ pronounced devastating judgements against false leaders, John 7:24. Yet He refused to become a judge in matters affecting man's material possessions, Luke 12:13-14. Jesus clearly states that we are not to judge. To pass judgement implies a sense of moral superiority that we simply do not possess. What we are not to do in judging is to criticize others while passing over our own faults. James 4:11-12. Hence, we as Christian Molokans, cannot serve on a jury.] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2009 Any comments on these from those who know the Truth? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NAD923 0 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 I liked this one and wanted to share it. From the 1803 molokan dogmas Article 25 - Kings and Authorities We honor the kings and authorities according to the testimony of God's word. Proverbs 8:15-16, "By ME kings reign, and lawgivers decree just things, by ME princes rule, and the mighty decree justice." Romans 13:1-2, "Let every soul be subject to higher powers; for there is no power but from God, and those that are, are ORDAINED of God. Therefore he that <<resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God>>..." I Peter 2:17, "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." I Timothy 2:1-2, "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:<< For kings, and for all that are in high stations (authority)...">> Not only should we HONOR our KING but everyone in authority, martyrs, leaders, prophets, our heads in church and elders Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NAD923 0 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 Christ himself said "I did not come to unite but to seperate..." Are we trying gather something that has been scatered? Or seperate something that has been gathered? Is our interpertation of the scriptures so tight that we can say that we know better than God(just common sence) In Rev. the antichrist will gather into one faith. What's that faith going to be? Christian of course, other wise he would be call antigod, antihebrew, antiallah ect. Are you going to be part of it? He's going to say "We believe in the true God ect. We beleive in the biblical Christ, same as you, why can't we be of the same faith?" and they'll have more bible refreces and points than you can imagine. I'm going to post all of the 1803 molokan dogma, some intresting reading. These are all bible based. DOGMAS "Principles of the True Spiritual Christian Russian Molokans, Since 1803. Comprising 27 Articles" "Articles are translated and printed word for word from the Prayerbook of the Spiritual Christian Molokans, 3rd edition. Published in 1910 by M. P. Lezin. Douay* Version of the Bible used for reference. Words in Parenthesis, King James Version." "* A full English translation of the Russian texts quoted throughout the Articles may be seen in the Douay version of the Bible. Thes texts will be found to correspond, chapter and verse." EDITORS NOTE: The 6th commandment, "Thou shalt not kill," which constitutes one of the main cornerstones of the Molokan religion was for some reason omitted in the above articles. The Editor suspects that the censorship rules existing at the time Lezin's Prayer-Book ws published [1910] had prevented the publisher from covering this all-important subject. ________________________________________ All notes are shown here in RED ITALICS. The above is the exact title and description as published in the Molokan Review 1948 and 1949, by Paul Ivan. Samarin, Los Angeles, editor. The Lezin Prayer book apparently was handwritten or published somewhere in Russia. These 27 translated articles were republished for the first time in June 1982 when 1,000 copies -- as a 2-sided, 18" x 9", folded brochure-- were reproduced "as is" from Samarin and distributed free by The Molokan Directory, Clovis CA. The Douay translation is "used for reference" because it corresponds word for word with the Russian Bible used by Molokans. Both the Douay and Russian Bibles are identical because they are derived from the Greek version of the Bible, others used the Latin Bible. In the late-1990s, American - Molokan - Jumper presbyters in Los Angeles addressed a problem presented by many members who were called for jury duty and could not show any historic document declaring that Molokans objected to judging others in crimes or capital punishment. Since the American - Jumpers had no concise statement of their dogma to deliver to the Los Angeles County council of judges, they amended what they could find -- the translated exerpt from Lezin's Prayerbook. In about 2000, the translation was slightly edited and 2 articles were added to satisfy the missing court requirements for a declaration of faith. The 29 amended articles were reprinted and distributed without any reference indicating when or why they were reprinted or changed, or where they came from. Here is a summary of the changes and edits: • many translations were edited: o at beginning of the title 2 words were added: "Tenets and" o underlines indicate letters capitalized or deleted: him o square brackets [--] indicate spelling or translation changes • the labels of 3 articles were changed: o #15 was made plural o #19 changed from "Affusion and Purification" to "Cleansing" o #27 changed from "Our Sect" to #28 - "Our Faith" • 2 new articles were added near the end: o # 27 - "Do Not Judge" to address jury duty o #29 - "Thou Shall not Kill" Editorial comments on this web page are shown in RED ITALIC font. If anyone knows anything different about the history of these Dogma, please send in additions and corrections. If anyone has Lezin's Prayerbook, could you please send in a copy of these Dogma in Russian, so I can display the original Russian side-by-side with the translation. If anyone wants a printed copy of the 1982 reprint, let me know. -- Thanks, Andy Conovaloff -- This page last updated on February 2003. [Tenets and] Principles of the True Spiritual Christian Russian Molokans Since 1803 29 Articles 1. God 2. Prayer 3. Church 4. Placing a Sign of the Cross 5. Images of Saints 6. Bishops and Priests 7. Using the Ornates 8. Sacrificial Offerings 9. The Throne 10. Censer and Incense 11. Vessels 12. The Baptism 13. Naming of an Infant 14. Anointment 15. The Holy Communion 16. Repentance 17. Marriage 18. Crowns 19. Affusion and Purification [Cleansing] 20. Fasting 21. Funerals of the Dead 22. Resurrection of the Dead 23. Commemoration of the Dead 24. Seventh Day 25. Kings and Authorities 26. Added: [Do Not Judge] 27. Oath -- formerly #26 28. Our Sect [Our Faith]-- formerly #27 29. Added: [Thou Shalt Not Kill] Article 1 - God We believe in only one God, who exists in Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as Apostle St. Paul said in his epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter 2, verse 20, "Built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone." And Christ said in Matthew, Chapter 28, verse 19, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Article 2 - Prayer Our praying consists of our prayers to Christ in prophetic and apostolic prayers, according to the order of God's son to his disciples, as it is written in Matthew 6:9, "Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name." Luke 11:2, "And he said to them: When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come." Ephesians 6:18, "By all prayer and supplication, praying at all times in the spirit ..." Luke 22:41, "...and kneeling down, he prayed." Apostle Paul, Acts 21:5, "And we kneeled down on the shore, and we prayed." ***** 6:10 "...he knelt down three times a day, and adored (prayed), and gave thanks before his God..." In John 4:23-24, our Saviour said to a woman from Samaria: "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers (worshippers) shall adore (worship) the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore [worship] him. God is a spirit; and they that adore [worship] him, must adore [worship] him in spirit and in truth." In the epistle of Jude 1:20 is written: "But you, my beloved, building yourselves upon your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost." Article 3 - Church As a church we consider a congregation of people according to the testimony of Paul, the Apostle in his 2nd epistle, to Corinthians 6:16, "...For you are the temple of the living God. As God saith: I will dwell in them, and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Also Leviticus 26:12.) In the Acts 17:24, "...He, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands. Neither is he served with men's hands..." On the same subject is testified in the following: I Corinthians 14:26, "...When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done to edification." In I Peter 2-5, "Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." In Ephesians 3:10, "That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church." Ephesians 5:27, "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." In Acts 20:7 and 11, "...Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow; and he continued his speech until midnight ... and having talked a long time to them, until daylight, so he departed." From St John in the Apocalypse (Revelations) 19:5, "And a voice came out from the throne saying: "give praise to our God, all ye his servants; and you that fear him, little [small] and great." In Hebrews 9:24, "For Jesus is not entered into the holies [holy places] made with hands..." Isaias [isaiah] 66:1, "Thus saith the Lord: Heaven is my throne, and the earth my footstool; what is this house that you will build to me, and what is this place of my rest?" Article 4 - Placing a Sign of the Cross We do not place upon ourselves a visible sign of the cross, but we are indicating ourselves as promised by the Holy Ghost according to the testimony of the Holy Scripture, Wisdom 16:6, "...having a sign of salvation to put them in remembrance of the commandment of thy law. For he that turned to it was not heated by that which he saw, but by thee, the Savior of all," Isaiah 66:19, "And I will set a sign among them, and I will send of them that shall be saved..." Acts 11:28, "And on of them named Agabus, rising up, signified by the Spirit..." Matthew 28:19, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." To the Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption." Article 5 - Images of Saints The ikons [icons], the images of saints, made by human hands, we do not worship, according to the Holy Scripture. 4 Kings 17:41, "So these nations feared the Lord, but nevertheless served also their idols..." Psalm 113:4-5, "The idols of the Gentiles are silver and gold, the works of the hands of men. They have mouths and speak not; they have eyes and see not..." Psalm 134:15, "The idols of the Gentiles are silver and gold, the works of men's hands." Wisdom 13:10, "...who have called gods the works of the hands of men, gold and silver..." In the same book of Wisdom 14:8-9, "But the idol that is made by hands, is cursed, as well it, as he that made it; he because he made it; and it because being frail it is called a god. But to God the wicked and his wickedness are hateful alike." See Isaias [isaiah] 44:12-18, Jeremiah 2:27, "Saying to a stock: Thou art my father..." Apocalypse [(Revelation)] 9-20, "...that they should not adore [worship] devils and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and wood..." Wisdom 14:27, "For the worship of abominable idols is the cause, ..." Apostle Paul has said to the Romans 1:22-23, "For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man..." According to the testimony of the Apostle Paul, Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." Romans 8-29, "For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son;..." I Peter 2:21, "For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps." Epistle of James 5:10, "Take, my brethren, for an example of suffering evil, of labor and patience..." To the Philippians 3:17, "Be ye followers of me, brethren, and observe them who walk so as you have our model." I Timothy 4:12, "...but be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conduct, in charity, in faith, in chastity." Titus 2:7-8, "In all things show thyself an example of good words, in doctrine, in integrity, in gravity. The sound word that can not be blamed: that he, who is on the contrary part, may be afraid..." See Hebrews 1:3, II Thessalonians 3:9, "...but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us." Article 6 - Bishops and Priests We have only one Priest and Bishop, who sits on the right side of God, i.e., the Son of God, the Head of the Church (Ephesians 5:23). Ephesians 1:20-22, "Which he wrought in Christ, raising him up from the dead, and setting him on his right hand in the heavenly places, above all principality, and power, and virtue, and dominion ... and he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church." Psalm 2:7, "The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee." Psalm 109:4, "...Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech [Melchizedek]." Hebrews 5:10, "Called by God a high priest according to the order of Melchisedech [Melchizedek]." This one we call bishop and priest according to the word of the Holy Scripture, Hebrews 4:14-15, "Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities, but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin." Hebrews 7:26, "For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who needeth not daily (as the other priests) to offer sacrifices..." In the same book 8:1, "... We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of majesty in the heavens." The Apostles have imitated the Christ and have been purified by the Holy Ghost. Acts 20:28, "Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood," Ephesians 4:11, "And he gave some to be apostles, and some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, which in our religion appear in the image of man or old men according to the word of scripture by Jesus, the son of Sirach in Ecclesiasticus [Ecclesiastes] 37:15. "But be continually with a holy man, whomsoever thou shalt know to observe the fear of God." Jeremiah 5:1, "...if you can find a man that executeth judgment, and seeketh faith..." In Chapter 9, verse 12, "Who is the wise man, that my understand this, and to whom the word of the mouth of the Lord may come..." I Timothy 2:8, "I will therefore that men pray in every place..." I Peter 5:1-2, "The ancients therefore that are among you ... Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking care of it, not by constraint, but willingly..." Article 7 - Using the Ornates We have no ornates, because the Apostles had no special dress for divine services and Jesus Christ himself did not create such vestments. As the holy Apostles have wandered in plain clothes, so we are also praying in our regular garments. Concerning the use of ornates we take it for granted to be always clothed for salvation and always be dressed with truth according to Ephesians 6:19, "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice." Ecclesiastes 9:8, "At all times let thy garments be white, and let not oil depart from thy head." Isaiah 69:17, "...he put on the garments of vengeance, and was clad with zeal as with a cloak." And in 61:10, "...my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, and with the robe of justice..." Revelations 3:4-5, "...which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, because they are worthy. He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father..." Article 8 - Sacrificial Offerings We offer a sacrifice in every place a sacrifice of praise as the fruit of our lips according to the testimony of the prophet, Malachias [Malachi] 1:11, "...and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered in my name a clean offering..." Hebrews 13:15-1 6, "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise always to God, that is to say, the fruit of lips confessing to his name. And do not forget beneficence and neighborliness, for by such sacrifices God's favor is obtained." David in Psalm 5:17 says: "A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit, a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 40:6, "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire..." Psalm 60:14, "Offer to God the sacrifice of praise, and pay thy vows to the most High." Of the same is said in the book of Prophet *****, 3:38-39, "Neither is there at this time prince, or leader or prophet, or holocaust, or sacrifice, or offering, or incense, or place of first-fruits before thee. That we may find thy mercy: nevertheless in a contrite heart and humble spirit let us be accepted." Prophet Isaiah 56:7, "...their holocausts, and their sacrifices shall please me upon my altar; for my house shall be called the house of prayer..." In 66:20 the Lord says: "...as if the children of Israel should bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord." Ephesians 5:2, "... as Christ also hath loved us, and hath delivered himself for us, and offering and a sacrifice to God for an odor of sweetness." Hebrews 9:26, "...but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself." Such sacrifices we also imitate. Article 9 - The Throne The Throne testifies a prudent man according to Lord's word as it is said in the books of Prophet Isaiah 16:5, "And a throne shall be prepared in mercy, and one shall sit upon it in truth..." Proverbs 12:23, "A cautious man concealeth knowledge..." Read Jeremias [Jeremiah] 14:21. Ezechiel [Ezekiel] 43:7, "Said to me: Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever..." Zecharias [Zechariah] 6:13, "... and shall sit, and rule upon his throne..." Proverbs 26:5, "...and His throne shall be established with justice." Jeremias [Jeremiah] 3:17, "At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the Lord..." The Apocalypse 21:3, "... Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people: and God himself with them shall be their God." Article 10 - Censer and Incense Incense and Censer we regard in prayer according to the word of the Scripture, Psalms 14.2, "Let my prayer be directed as incense in thy sight..." Ephesians 5:2, "... and a sacrifice to God for an odor of sweetness." The Apocalypse 8:3, "... and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God." II Corinthians 2:14-15, "Now thanks be to God, who always maketh us to triumph in Christ Jesus, and manifesteth the odor of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are the good odour of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish." Article 11 - Vessels We consider as vessls on Divine Services the lips of the reasonables according to the word of the Scripture. Proverbs 20:15, "There is gold, and a multitude of jewels: but the lips of knowledge are a precious vessel." Psalms 71:22, "For I will also confess (praise) to thee thy truth with the instruments of psaltery..." Isaias [isaiah] 52:11, "... be ye clean, you that carry the vessels of the Lord." Acts 9:15, "And the Lord said to him: Go thy way, for this man is to me a vessel of chosen to can my name before the Gentiles..." I Corinthians 10:16, "The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?" Article 12 - The Baptism With regard the baptism as a repentance and remission of sins according to the testimony of the Holy Scripture Mark 1:4, "John was in the desert baptizing and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins." And in 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned." Acts 13:23-24, "...hath raised up to Israel a Saviour, Jesus. John first preaching before his coming, the baptism of penance..." Acts 22:16, "...Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name." Romans 6:3, "Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized into his death?" I Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." Verse 18, "For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness: but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God." Hebrews 6:2, "Of the doctrine of baptisms, and laying on of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Acts 1:5, "For John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence." Luke 3:16, "John answered, saying unto all: I indeed baptize you with water; but there shall come one mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to loose; He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Article 13 - Naming of an Infant By giving names to infants we are acting in compliance with God's word. Luke 1:59, "... on the eight day they came to circumcise the child, and they called by his father's name Zachary. And his mother answering said: Not so, but he shall be called John." Exodus 2:22, "...whom he called Eliezer..." So we also act regardless of what date the infant is born, his father and mother and relatives give the name to the newborn infant. Article 14 - Anointment The anointment testifies the oil of joy, according to God's word. Psalms 45:9, "...therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Habakkuk 3.13, "Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people; for salvation with thy Christ (thine anointed)..." Acts 4:27, "For of a truth there assembled together in this city against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed..." And in 10:38, "Jesus of Nazareth: how God anointed him with the Holy Ghost, and with power..." I St. John 2:20, "But you have the unction from the Holy One..." II Corinthians 1:21-22, "...and that hath anointed us, is God; Who also hath sealed us, and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts." Article 15 - The Holy Communion We regard the Holy Communion as a divine and blessed Sacrament according to the word of the Holy Scripture. Psalm 119:63, "I am a partaker [friend] with all them that fear thee, and that keep thy commandments." Hebrews 6:4, "...have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, have moreover tasted the good word of God." Chapter 3, verse 1, "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly vocation..." Verse 14, "For we are made partakers of Christ..." 12:10, "...that we might receive his sanctification." Deuteronomy 8:3, "...not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God." Proverbs 12:14, "By the fruit of his own mouth shall a man be filled with good things..." Wisdom 16:26, "...not the growing of fruits that nourisheth men, but Thy word preserveth them that believe in Thee." Ecclesiasticus [Ecclesiastes] 15:3, "With the bread of life and understanding, she shall feed him, and give him the water of wholesome wisdom to drink..." John 6:27, "Labour not for the food which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you..." Verse 64, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing..." Psalm 34:8, "O taste, and see that the Lord is sweet..." Psalm 118:50 [119:50], "...because thy word hath enlivened me." I Corinthians 10:17, "For we, being many, are one, one body, for we all that partake of one loaf." Verse 30, "If I partake with thanksgiving, why am I evil spoken of for that which is give thanks?" Article 16 - Repentance As a repentance we testify the baptism to redeem our sins, according to the testimony of the Holy Scripture, Psalm 110:1 [111:1], "I will praise thee, O Lord, with my whole hears; in the council of the just, and in the congregation." Psalm 118:62 [119:62], "I rose at midnight to give praise to thee; for the judgments of Thy justifications" I John 2:1, "...But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the just; and he is the propitiation for our sins..." Hebrews 3:1, "... consider the apostle and high priest of our confession, Jesus." James 5:16 "Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be saved..." Article 17 - Marriage In matrimonial covenant we betroth in truth, grace, kindness and faith. God Himself hath said to man and wife, Genesis 1.28, "...Increase and multiply, and fill the earth..." Genesis 2:24, "Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall be two in one flesh." Read Matthew 19:3-9. Ephesians 5:22 and Verse 24, "Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord... Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things." Verse 25, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church..." We betroth according to the book of Tobias Chapter 7:10-15, "I will not eat nor drink here this day, unless thou first grant me my petition, and promise to give me Sara, thy daughter ... that this maid might be married to one of her own kindred, according to the law of Moses ... And taking the right hand of his daughter, he gave it into the right hand of Tobias...." Paul the Apostle in I Corinthians 7:27, "Art thou bound to a Wife? Seek not to be loosed..." To the alliance in marriage the groom and the bride present themselves in the assembly of people and betroth themselves in faith, in truth, in benevolence and in grace forever, and between them is concluded the promise not to separate, but get old together. This is performed in the presence of fathers and mothers and witnesses. Then they perceive each other as man and wife. Article 18 - Crowns We consider the crowns as a resistance to lust, and crown our life to preserve the truth and hope to obtain the crown, life, joy, hope, the diversity of sacrifices according to the Scripture. Ecclesiastes 1:11, where the crowns are called "crown of joy." In Verse 22, "crown of wisdom." In 25:8, "Much experience is the crown of old men,..." Isaias [isaiah] 28:5, "...the Lord of hosts shall be a crown of glory, and a garland of joy to the residue of his people [all who long for his appearing]." II Timothy 4:8, "...there is laid up for me a crown of justice..." Apocalypse 2:10, "...and I will give thee the crown of life." Article 19 - Affusion and Purification [Cleansing] Under Affusion [Cleansing] and Purification we understand not the material ones, but we endeavor to clean ourselves from every blot of body and spirit. Through the Purification of heart from cunning conscience, as it is said in the Scripture: Hebrews 10:22, "Let us draw near with a true heart in fullness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience..." II Corinthians 7:1, "...let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God." Isaias [isaiah] 45:8, "Drop down dew, ye heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain the just; let the earth be opened and bud forth a Savior; and let justice spring up together..." Isaias [isaiah] 4:4, "...Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Sion [Zion], and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Jeremias [Jeremiah] 4:14, "Wash thy heart from wickedness, O Jerusalem, that thou mayst be saved..." 6:16, "...and see, and ask for the old paths, which is the good way, and walk ye in it; and you shall find refreshment for your souls..." I Corinthians 6:11, "...but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God." Ephesians 5:26, "That he might sanctity it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life." Article 20 - Fasting We keep the Fast according to the example of Jesus Christ, the Prophets and the Apostles. Prophet ***** 10:2-3, "In those days I ***** mourned for three weeks. I ate no desirable bread, and neither flesh, nor wine entered into my mouth, neither was I anointed with ointment, till the days of three weeks were accomplished." In the 3 [3rd] Book of Esdras is said, that Esdras has kept on fasting for seven days. David has also been fasting, as we can see in Psalm 109:24 where he says: "My knees are weakened through fasting; and my flesh is changed for oil (faileth of fatness) [body is thin and gaunt]." The Prophet Joel 2:12, "Now therefore saith The Lord, be converted to me with all your heart, in fasting..." Zechadah 8:19, "Thus saith The Lord of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth..." Such Fasts we also approve and submit ourselves to Fast, according to our possibility [strength], for four and five days, and even a week, we do not take bread and water, but the blessed food, we eat any time according to the testimony of the Holy Scripture: Leviticus 11:3, "Whatsoever hath the hoof divided, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, you shall eat." I Timothy 4:3-5, "...to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be rejected that is received with thanksgiving; For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." We do not observe any other Fasts, and Fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays we do not accept at all. We honor more Spiritual Fasts according to the words of Scripture: Isaias [isaiah] 58:3-9, "Why have we fasted, and thou hast not regarded: have we humbled our souls, and thou hast not taken notice? Behold in the day of your fast your own will is found, and you exact of all your debtors ... Is not this rather the fast that I have chosen? Loose the bands of wickedness, undo the bundles that oppress, let them that are broken go free and break asunder every burden. Deal thy bread to the hungry, and bring the needy and the harbourless into [the shelter of] thy house; when thou shalt see one naked, cover him, ...and thy justice shall go before thy face, and the glory of the Lord shall gather thee up." Article 21 - Funerals of the Dead Over the deceased, after the departure of the soul from the body, we have vigil in prayers and the singing of Psalms of King David and on burial we accompany the body of the dead, weeping and singing of psalms to the very grave, after the word of the Scripture: Psalms 145 [146], "Praise the Lord, O my soul, in my life I will praise the Lord: I will sing to my God as long as I shall be." Psalms 23:1 [24:1], "The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof: the world, and all they that dwell therein." Psalm 83:4 [84:3], "My soul longeth and fainteth for the courts of the Lord..." Acts 8:2, "And devout men took order for Stephen's funeral [buried Stephen], and made great mourning over him." Ecclesiasticus [Ecclesiastes] 38:16, "My son, shed tears over the dead..." "Verse 17, "...Weep bitterly ... and make mourning for him according to her merit..." Verse 24, "When the dead is at rest, let his remembrance rest, and comfort him in the departing of his spirit." Article 22 - Resurrection of the Dead We believe in life beyond the grave and after the death we hope to resurrect in another body according to the testimony of the Scripture: II Corinthians 5:l, "For we know, if our earthly house of this habitation be dissolved, that we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in heaven." I Corinthians 15:50-52, "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess (inherit) incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall indeed rise again [not all sleep but we shall all be changed] ... In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed." Zecharias [Zechariah] 14:12, "...the flesh of every one shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." Mark 12:26, Jesus said: "And as concerning the dead that they rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living,.." John 5:28-30, "...for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And they that have one good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment." The Apocalypse 20:12, "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne..." 21:1, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth..." 3d and 4th Verse, "...Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and He will dwell with them...And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more..." Article 23 - Commemoration of the Dead We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins will be forgiven, an example of what we see in God's word. Judah Machabee has offered a sacrifice for the dead. 2 Book Machabee 12:43, "...he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins..." (Read also verse 44.) Baruch 3:4-5, "O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel ... Remember not the iniquities of our fathers, but think upon thy hand, and upon thy name at this time." Article 24 - Seventh Day The Seventh Day we honor according to the testimony of the Scripture: Leviticus 23:3, "...the seventh day, because it is the rest of the sabath [a Sabbath of rest and], shall be called holy. You shall do no work on that day..." Sophonias [Zephaniah] 3:8, "Wherefore expect me, saith the Lord, in the day of my resurrection that is to come..." Mark 16:9, "But he rising early the first day of the week..." This day we devote to prayers and good deeds, according to the word of the Scripture. Colossians 3:16, "...teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles [words]..." (Read also Ephesians 5:19.) James 1:22, "But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only..." Article 25 - Kings and Authorities We honor the kings and authorities according to the testimony of God's word. Proverbs 8:15-16, "By me kings reign, and lawgivers decree just things, by me princes rule, and the mighty decree justice." Romans 13:1-2, "Let every soul be subject to higher powers; for there is no power but from God, and those that are, are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God..." I Peter 2:17, "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." I Timothy 2:1-2, "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings, and for all that are in high stations (authority)..." [Article 26 - Do Not Judge] Added about 2000 [The prophets of old depict Christ as the ultimate judge, Psalms 89:14, 97-2, Isaiah 11:1-5, of God's law. Christ pronounced devastating judgements against false leaders, John 7:24. Yet He refused to become a judge in matters affecting man's material possessions, Luke 12:13-14. Jesus clearly states that we are not to judge. To pass judgement implies a sense of moral superiority that we simply do not possess. What we are not to do in judging is to criticize others while passing over our own faults. James 4:11-12. Hence, we as Christian Molokans, cannot serve on a jury.] Article 27 - Oath We understand the Oath by testimony of Matthew 5:34-37, where is said, "But I say to you not to swear at all, neither by heaven ... nor by the earth ... neither shalt thou swear by thy head ... but let your speech be yea, yea; no, no; and that which is over and above these, is of evil." The Apostle James in his Epistle 5:12, says, "... But let your speech be yea; yea, no, no;..." For this reason we always preserve faithfulness. Article 28 - Our Sect [Faith] In our sect [Faith] exists the confirmation [affirmation] to all multitude of people, that lewdness, adultery, drunkenness, murder, robbery and all other sinful deeds, we destroy [reject] and who of our fellow-believers does not obey, is ousted from our congregation according to the testimony of Apostle Paul I Epistle, Corinthians 5:11, "But now I have written to you, not to keep company, if any man that is named brother, be a fornicator, or covetous, or a server of idols, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner: with such a one, do not so much as to eat." This is always corroborated in our congregation, that the duty of christianity is not to nurse any evil feelings against your next one [one another]. We are endeavoring [endeavor] to eliminate all quarrel and discord from the congregation and reconciliate with one another before sunset, because the malice of a man is an old and deep rooted wrath. And if a man not reconciles [does not reconcile] soon with his malice [brother], so it is converted into a sin, according to the testimony of the Holy Scripture, where it is said in Ephesians 4:26-27, "...Let not the sun go down upon your anger. Give not place to the devil." He who keeps malice and wrath against his next one [brother], so the devil (i.e. the spirit of malice) has conquered and leads him as his prisoner. The malice is born by [of] the envy, as Cain for envy's sake has killed his brother Abel. We are endeavoring with all our power not to admit such things in our sect [Faith]. And to begin before praying our principal (the Presbyter) reminds the congregation, as it is written: Matthew 5:23-24, "If therefore thou [you] offer thy [your] gift at the after, and there thou remember that thy [your] brother hath something against thee [you], leave there thy [your] offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy [your] brother, and then coming [come and] thou shalt offer thy [your] gift. [Article 29 - Thou Shalt Not Kill] Added about 2000 [The Sixth Commandment, Exodus 20:13, is one of the cornerstones of our Faith. In the Book of Genesis it is said: Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood will be shed: For in the image of God He made man. Genesis 9:6. For this reason every murder, which ever one it might be, and however it may have occurred is a sin against The Lord God. No murderer has eternal life, I John 3:15. Also, Jesus said, "All that draw the sword, shall die by the sword." Matthew 26:52.] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pollo del Mar 0 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 I liked this one and wanted to share it. From the 1803 molokan dogmas Article 25 - Kings and Authorities We honor the kings and authorities according to the testimony of God's word. Proverbs 8:15-16, "By ME kings reign, and lawgivers decree just things, by ME princes rule, and the mighty decree justice." Romans 13:1-2, "Let every soul be subject to higher powers; for there is no power but from God, and those that are, are ORDAINED of God. Therefore he that <<resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God>>..." I Peter 2:17, "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." I Timothy 2:1-2, "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:<< For kings, and for all that are in high stations (authority)...">> Not only should we HONOR our KING but everyone in authority, martyrs, leaders, prophets, our heads in church and elders What do you mean honor? If you admire or love a person that is alright. Taking direction from a person of authority is alright to a certain level. If your meaning of honor is to worship or venerate I reccomend that you check yourself. Taking scripture out of context is not reccomended if you want the whole message to be heard or is it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NAD923 0 Report post Posted January 29, 2010 I liked this one and wanted to share it. From the 1803 molokan dogmas Article 25 - Kings and Authorities We honor the kings and authorities according to the testimony of God's word. Proverbs 8:15-16, "By ME kings reign, and lawgivers decree just things, by ME princes rule, and the mighty decree justice." Romans 13:1-2, "Let every soul be subject to higher powers; for there is no power but from God, and those that are, are ORDAINED of God. Therefore he that <<resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God>>..." I Peter 2:17, "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." I Timothy 2:1-2, "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:<< For kings, and for all that are in high stations (authority)...">> Not only should we HONOR our KING but everyone in authority, martyrs, leaders, prophets, our heads in church and elders What do you mean honor? If you admire or love a person that is alright. Taking direction from a person of authority is alright to a certain level. If your meaning of honor is to worship or venerate I reccomend that you check yourself. Taking scripture out of context is not reccomended if you want the whole message to be heard or is it? HONOR- Give honor to, have respect, have love for, as christians- having love for our neibour/brother, that quote from 1 Tim. 2:1-2 sums it up. WORSHIP- Give worship to, pray TO (not through), bring offering to, ect. "We worship God (and the Word/Christ) only in Spirit and Truth.." (MGR 3:5) You've just started to post here (?), and already, like everyone else (almost) on this site, you ASSUME I want to worship some man. Check yourself first "..pull the log from your own eye..." "..don't judge if you don't want to be judged..." ect. Besides you haven't told me what 'Pollo del Mar' means yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Report post Posted January 30, 2010 WORSHIP- Give worship to, pray TO (not through), bring offering to, ect. "We worship God (and the Word/Christ) only in Spirit and Truth.." (MGR 3:5) Sorry but I couldn't find in MGR 3:5 any reference to Christ being the Word (English from the Russian 1928 second edition searched). As a matter of fact it's MGR who proclaims to be the Christ/Anointed and demands worship as God of the World and condemns those who do not, a place in hell. Judging someone to hell is something only God can do. MGR does think he is God and blatantly makes that proclamation. I think your intention was to deceive, thus giving the impression that MGR might have a micro speck of integrity when in fact Scripture calls the likes of MGR and his followers, SPIRITUAL HARLOTS, which would include all churches that advocate Scripture and anti-scripture on their prestol, or through speech, song, prayer or procedure? Avoid every kind of evil. 1 Thess 5:22 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted January 30, 2010 NAD According to Article 23, there is to be a price paid to cover the sin of the deceased Article 23 - Commemoration of the Dead We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins will be forgiven, an example of what we see in God's word. Judah Machabee has offered a sacrifice for the dead. 2 Book Machabee 12:43, "...he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins..." (Read also verse 44.) Baruch 3:4-5, "O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel ... Remember not the iniquities of our fathers, but think upon thy hand, and upon thy name at this time." What is the price? Who pays that price? Can the price be paid after someone is dead or only when they are alive? What if the person doesn't have anyone to pay the price? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted August 8, 2010 Those who deny the Deity of Jesus also fail to address Article 1 yet there have been additions in about the year 2000 of articles 26 & 29 Article 1 - God We believe in only one God, who exists in Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost Why won't those who deny the Deity of Jesus simply REMOVE article 1? This is a serious contradiction Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest You're misleading Report post Posted August 10, 2010 Molokans do believe in a trinity, they just do not accept the trinity as being co-equal. You know this, so why are you misrepresenting the facts? To goad or entrap someone into a one sided dialogue to appease some ego? Those who deny the Deity of Jesus also fail to address Article 1 yet there have been additions in about the year 2000 of articles 26 & 29 Article 1 - God We believe in only one God, who exists in Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost Why won't those who deny the Deity of Jesus simply REMOVE article 1? This is a serious contradiction Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted August 10, 2010 You cannot redefine terms Tri_hypostasis means 3 as one Equal...not created or in some way lesser EQUAL Either you are wrong or Scripture is As was recently cited 12 ¶ giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Colossians 1:12-17) He IS He Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Report post Posted August 12, 2010 ????? This was about how Molokans view the Trinity not if I am or I am not wrong. Nor have I given you any info on my religious views and have no intention of doing so. Given your attempted pitiful shot at diversion, I have to assume that you indeed know full well that Molokans to not interpret Tri-Hypostasis and being equal. They view and interpret "one" as in unity, such as a football team is one but in composition, none of them are co-equal. Equal is your own personal interpretation, of which, you are sorrowfully trying to cram down others. Given you seem to fancy yourself as an evangelist (almost like a modern day Russian Mystic), this much is obvious, factual information is not important, only when they fit your objective. Finally, fact that this article does not invoke the Trinity Doctrine, and this was the era of Imperial Russia, its plainly obvious they were wording this "very carefully" in order to avoid more attention from the Russian Orthodox Church, thus you ignore context as well. You cannot redefine terms Tri_hypostasis means 3 as one Equal...not created or in some way lesser EQUAL Either you are wrong or Scripture is As was recently cited 12 ¶ giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Colossians 1:12-17) He IS He Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted August 12, 2010 12 ¶ giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. (Colossians 1:12-18) He whom is the image of the invisible God? “1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified [it] by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.” “3 ¶ Blessed [is] he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time [is] near. 4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him [be] glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, [the] Beginning and [the] End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."” “9 ¶ I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send [it] to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea." 12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands [One] like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair [were] white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet [were] like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance [was] like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 "I [am] He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.” (Revelation 1:1-18 NKJV) When did God die? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2010 Article 1 - God We believe in only one God, who exists in Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as Apostle St. Paul said in his epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter 2, verse 20, "Built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone." And Christ said in Matthew, Chapter 28, verse 19, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevepiv 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) Article 1 - God We believe in only one God, who exists in Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as Apostle St. Paul said in his epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter 2, verse 20, "Built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone." And Christ said in Matthew, Chapter 28, verse 19, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Seems like they understood this. But, now you ask any Maximist about that, they'll deny it, negate it, with Maxim's heresy. I recently pointed that out to a staunch Maximist, that this was found in their beloved Spirit & Life, they went off o a tangent and couldn't give a straight answer. I kept going back to this Article and their response was : "The forefathers that came to America didn't believe like that, so neither do I." ???? Right in The Spirit & Life Heresy book, if we went through it and connected the theology to the other cults out there, we would find a mix of every lie from satan wrapped up in the Spirit & Life heresy. Edited October 20, 2010 by stevepiv Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2010 Is everyone missing this? Article 23 - Commemoration of the Dead We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins will be forgiven, an example of what we see in God's word. Judah Machabee has offered a sacrifice for the dead. 2 Book Machabee 12:43, "...he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins..." (Read also verse 44.) Baruch 3:4-5, "O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel ... Remember not the iniquities of our fathers, but think upon thy hand, and upon thy name at this time." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 20, 2010 Is everyone missing this? Article 23 - Commemoration of the Dead We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins will be forgiven, an example of what we see in God's word. Judah Machabee has offered a sacrifice for the dead. 2 Book Machabee 12:43, "...he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins..." (Read also verse 44.) Baruch 3:4-5, "O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel ... Remember not the iniquities of our fathers, but think upon thy hand, and upon thy name at this time." I see it and do not agree with it. I posted some info on the Apocrypha in the KJ thread that expounds on why the Apocrypha used to be in all of the KJ bibles. It was also in the bible that the molokans had in Russia. If they had bibles that did not have the Apocrypha, they would not have included that in there. Just like the modern day, Biblicaly based molokans do not pray for forgiveness of sins for the dead. But can we come to a conclusion on Article one first? We can not keep saying the molokans deny the deity of Jesus based on history. Maxim was not the a representative for all of the molokans, so you can't base your judgments off of his false teachings. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2010 Kevin: What purpose does "pomenki" serve? Please provide contextual Biblical support (Chapter/Verse) AND Is Salvation secured by accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin OR Is it accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin PLUS prayer for the dead (pomenki) and/or eating kosher and/or practicing endogamy or or or or How Salvation is secured IS a core tenet of Christianity and has nothing to do with either Calvinism or Arminianism Is Salvation secured by accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin OR is it accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin PLUS prayer for the dead (pomenki) and/or eating kosher and/or practicing endogamy or or or or Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2010 Kevin: What purpose does "pomenki" serve? Please provide contextual Biblical support (Chapter/Verse) AND Is Salvation secured by accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin OR Is it accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin PLUS prayer for the dead (pomenki) and/or eating kosher and/or practicing endogamy or or or or How Salvation is secured IS a core tenet of Christianity and has nothing to do with either Calvinism or Arminianism Is Salvation secured by accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin OR is it accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin PLUS prayer for the dead (pomenki) and/or eating kosher and/or practicing endogamy or or or or Pominki is a secondary issue, just like Calvinism/Arminianism. A couple days ago I brought up the deity of Jesus as a primary issue, but you diverted that conversation to pominki. Which is more important? Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2010 Unfortunately it's not a secondary issue How is Salvation secured? Is it by acceptance of the finished work of Jesus on the Cross OR Is it by acceptance of the finished work of Jesus on the Cross AND prayer for the dead (pomenki) and/or eating kosher and/or practicing endogamy or or or or Please answer the question Kevin: What purpose does "pomenki" serve? Please provide contextual Biblical support (Chapter/Verse) AND Is Salvation secured by accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin OR Is it accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin PLUS prayer for the dead (pomenki) and/or eating kosher and/or practicing endogamy or or or or How Salvation is secured IS a core tenet of Christianity and has nothing to do with either Calvinism or Arminianism Is Salvation secured by accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin OR is it accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin PLUS prayer for the dead (pomenki) and/or eating kosher and/or practicing endogamy or or or or Pominki is a secondary issue, just like Calvinism/Arminianism. A couple days ago I brought up the deity of Jesus as a primary issue, but you diverted that conversation to pominki. Which is more important? Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2010 It is a secondary issue. I guess we all have blind spots, and this must be yours. Primary issues are issues that deal with the nature and character of God Secondary issues are all of the other issues that deal with men. The trinity has to do with the nature and character of God. Pominki has to do with the prayers of men. Pominki has nothing to do with salvation. So we must take an issue and compare it with Jesus. There are two results, dung (sencondary) or God (primary). The deity of Jesus as God is a God issue (primary). The nature of Jesus as both God and man is a God issue (primary). Pominki is a man issue (secondary). Dung compared to Jesus. Communion is a man issue (secondary). Dung compared to Jesus. Growing beards is a man issue (secondary, or maybe even thirdary). Dung compared to Jesus. Exegetical preaching vs. topical preaching is a man issue (secondary). Dung compared to Jesus. Baptism is a man issue (secondary) Dung compared to Jesus. Homeschool is a man issue (secondary) Dung compared to Jesus. the list can go on and on and on and on..... Unfortunately it's not a secondary issue How is Salvation secured? Is it by acceptance of the finished work of Jesus on the Cross OR Is it by acceptance of the finished work of Jesus on the Cross AND prayer for the dead (pomenki) and/or eating kosher and/or practicing endogamy or or or or Please answer the question Kevin: What purpose does "pomenki" serve? Please provide contextual Biblical support (Chapter/Verse) AND Is Salvation secured by accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin OR Is it accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin PLUS prayer for the dead (pomenki) and/or eating kosher and/or practicing endogamy or or or or How Salvation is secured IS a core tenet of Christianity and has nothing to do with either Calvinism or Arminianism Is Salvation secured by accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin OR is it accepting Jesus' perfect life, death and resurrection as payment for your sin PLUS prayer for the dead (pomenki) and/or eating kosher and/or practicing endogamy or or or or Pominki is a secondary issue, just like Calvinism/Arminianism. A couple days ago I brought up the deity of Jesus as a primary issue, but you diverted that conversation to pominki. Which is more important? Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2010 So I guess in a round about way you are saying "pomenki" is of no benefit to the deceased? In other words having a "pomenki" has no effect in terms of the eternal destination of the deceased Is that correct? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2010 So I guess in a round about way you are saying "pomenki" is of no benefit to the deceased? In other words having a "pomenki" has no effect in terms of the eternal destination of the deceased Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. Pomenki is of no value what-so-ever for the deceased person. Once they die, they are either in the presence of God, or eternally seperated from the presence of God. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2010 So why is there an article 23 that is contradictory to article 1? Why are people taught by the "elders" this false religious practice is necessary? So I guess in a round about way you are saying "pomenki" is of no benefit to the deceased? In other words having a "pomenki" has no effect in terms of the eternal destination of the deceased Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. Pomenki is of no value what-so-ever for the deceased person. Once they die, they are either in the presence of God, or eternally seperated from the presence of God. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 24, 2010 So why is there an article 23 that is contradictory to article 1? Why are people taught by the "elders" this false religious practice is necessary? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 24, 2010 Perhaps I should have addressed this Kevin: So why is there an article 23 that is contradictory to article 1? Why are people taught by the "elders" this false religious practice is necessary? If it's not a tenet, why is it listed in the Dogmas Do you know what dogma means? Per Websters: A doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church The validity of article 1 cannot stand alone if it is coupled with article 23 So why is there an article 23 that is contradictory to article 1? Why are people taught by the "elders" this false religious practice is necessary? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 25, 2010 Perhaps I should have addressed this Kevin: So why is there an article 23 that is contradictory to article 1? Why are people taught by the "elders" this false religious practice is necessary? If it's not a tenet, why is it listed in the Dogmas Do you know what dogma means? Per Websters: A doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church The validity of article 1 cannot stand alone if it is coupled with article 23 So why is there an article 23 that is contradictory to article 1? Why are people taught by the "elders" this false religious practice is necessary? First, you have yet to acknowledge Article one as a core, primary tenet of molokanism. Why won't you at least acknowledge it? Also, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Secondary issues can not override primary issues. Pominki is not a primary issue/tenet/domgma. It is a secondary issue. No one if forced to ask for forgiveness of sins for the departed loved one. It is done on a voluntary basis. And not everybody asks for forgiveness of sins. You do realize that, don't you? If you make pominki a primary issue, then you must make Calvinism/Arminianism a primary issue also. You do know that the Arminian says that Jesus work on the cross is not enough to save a man. And as you stated before, you do not consider this a primary issue. Maybe you should refresh Arminianism and what it teaches. Dr. J.I. Packer, author of the classic work Knowing God summarized the Arminian position as put forth in the remonstrance: 1) Man is never so completely corrupted by sin that he cannot savingly believe the gospel when it is put before him; 2) Man is never so completely controlled by God that he cannot reject God’s grace; 3) Election is a result of God, looking down through the corridors of time, foreseeing that a sinner will accept Christ. Therefore, God elects those who first elect Him. 4) Christ’s death did not ensure the salvation of anyone, for it did not secure the gift of faith (for the Remonstrance there was no such gift); what it did was rather to create a possibility of salvation for everyone if they would only choose to believe. 5) It ultimately rests with the believers to keep themselves in a state of grace by keeping up their faith. Those who fail here fall away and are lost. Dr. Packer concludes: “Arminianism made man’s salvation depend ultimately on man himself, saving faith being viewed throughout as man’s own work.” So why do you turn a blind eye towards the Arminian view of a works based salvation? Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Guest Report post Posted October 25, 2010 Pominki is not a primary issue/tenet/domgma. It is a secondary issue. Any issue that separates one from the Father becomes primary. Messengers with New Instructions in Righteousness are accursed. Galatians Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 25, 2010 It's obvious you're not seeing this for what it is First: I'll acknowledge what is written in article 1 as being words on a page I would go so far as to say I agree with the words that are written on the page However, that does don't make them a part of the cult of molokanism in the 21st century If they were the s&l would not be present overt racism and "ne-nash" would not exist the "new israel" non-sense would not exist and so forth and certainly the notion of praying for the dead, which flies contrary as a works based "salvation" to God's plan for Salvation would not be advocated a by the "elders" and practice by alleged "Christians" as needful None of these flow from a True knowledge and personal relationship with the Lord The mormons and jw's say they are "Christians" too..so what Where is the proof of this testimony? Fourvetta says he's a "Christian"..so what...his doctrine and practices show to be contrary to the Bible The same holds true for those who add to their alleged "Salvation" You obviously are blind to the simple fact molokanism is not Christianity in it's current form in the 21st century though there may be Christians in attendance We'll not, at this time, get into why anyone would continue in a cult when there is no Spiritual benefit Who defines policy or practice within the cult? Is it the people or the "elders"? You've saying there are "elders" and "members" who know the Truth I'm inclined to agree... Where is the evidence of this? This again nothing to do with calvanism or arminianism It comes down to Jesus or in the the case of a cult "Jesus" plus our rules plus our culture, plus our heritage, plus our "pure bloodlines" plus plus plus Pass the crack pipe and roll your eyes once again...it's cult business as usual Perhaps I should have addressed this Kevin: So why is there an article 23 that is contradictory to article 1? Why are people taught by the "elders" this false religious practice is necessary? If it's not a tenet, why is it listed in the Dogmas Do you know what dogma means? Per Websters: A doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church The validity of article 1 cannot stand alone if it is coupled with article 23 So why is there an article 23 that is contradictory to article 1? Why are people taught by the "elders" this false religious practice is necessary? First, you have yet to acknowledge Article one as a core, primary tenet of molokanism. Why won't you at least acknowledge it? Also, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Secondary issues can not override primary issues. Pominki is not a primary issue/tenet/domgma. It is a secondary issue. No one if forced to ask for forgiveness of sins for the departed loved one. It is done on a voluntary basis. And not everybody asks for forgiveness of sins. You do realize that, don't you? If you make pominki a primary issue, then you must make Calvinism/Arminianism a primary issue also. You do know that the Arminian says that Jesus work on the cross is not enough to save a man. And as you stated before, you do not consider this a primary issue. Maybe you should refresh Arminianism and what it teaches. Dr. J.I. Packer, author of the classic work Knowing God summarized the Arminian position as put forth in the remonstrance: 1) Man is never so completely corrupted by sin that he cannot savingly believe the gospel when it is put before him; 2) Man is never so completely controlled by God that he cannot reject God's grace; 3) Election is a result of God, looking down through the corridors of time, foreseeing that a sinner will accept Christ. Therefore, God elects those who first elect Him. 4) Christ's death did not ensure the salvation of anyone, for it did not secure the gift of faith (for the Remonstrance there was no such gift); what it did was rather to create a possibility of salvation for everyone if they would only choose to believe. 5) It ultimately rests with the believers to keep themselves in a state of grace by keeping up their faith. Those who fail here fall away and are lost. Dr. Packer concludes: "Arminianism made man's salvation depend ultimately on man himself, saving faith being viewed throughout as man's own work." So why do you turn a blind eye towards the Arminian view of a works based salvation? Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 25, 2010 You have a right to your opinion. But you are still wrong by making pominki a primary issue. That is why you keep avoiding the Calvinism/Arminianism issue. Arminianism is a heresy/cult by your standards of judgement. You are obviously not seeing this. At the end of the day, how much time do you want to spend on pominki? I brought up the deity of Jesus. You brought up pominki. It would seem that your priorities are out of order. Pominki is not a primary issue. There is a lack of consistency in your religious classifications. You are expecting perfection from secondary issues, and there is not one church that is perfect with the secondary issues. It is the primary issues that need to be fought for. Arguing over secondary is a waste of time. Kevin Nazaroff It's obvious you're not seeing this for what it is First: I'll acknowledge what is written in article 1 as being words on a page I would go so far as to say I agree with the words that are written on the page However, that does don't make them a part of the cult of molokanism in the 21st century If they were the s&l would not be present overt racism and "ne-nash" would not exist the "new israel" non-sense would not exist and so forth and certainly the notion of praying for the dead, which flies contrary as a works based "salvation" to God's plan for Salvation would not be advocated a by the "elders" and practice by alleged "Christians" as needful None of these flow from a True knowledge and personal relationship with the Lord The mormons and jw's say they are "Christians" too..so what Where is the proof of this testimony? Fourvetta says he's a "Christian"..so what...his doctrine and practices show to be contrary to the Bible The same holds true for those who add to their alleged "Salvation" You obviously are blind to the simple fact molokanism is not Christianity in it's current form in the 21st century though there may be Christians in attendance We'll not, at this time, get into why anyone would continue in a cult when there is no Spiritual benefit Who defines policy or practice within the cult? Is it the people or the "elders"? You've saying there are "elders" and "members" who know the Truth I'm inclined to agree... Where is the evidence of this? This again nothing to do with calvanism or arminianism It comes down to Jesus or in the the case of a cult "Jesus" plus our rules plus our culture, plus our heritage, plus our "pure bloodlines" plus plus plus Pass the crack pipe and roll your eyes once again...it's cult business as usual Perhaps I should have addressed this Kevin: So why is there an article 23 that is contradictory to article 1? Why are people taught by the "elders" this false religious practice is necessary? If it's not a tenet, why is it listed in the Dogmas Do you know what dogma means? Per Websters: A doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church The validity of article 1 cannot stand alone if it is coupled with article 23 So why is there an article 23 that is contradictory to article 1? Why are people taught by the "elders" this false religious practice is necessary? First, you have yet to acknowledge Article one as a core, primary tenet of molokanism. Why won't you at least acknowledge it? Also, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Secondary issues can not override primary issues. Pominki is not a primary issue/tenet/domgma. It is a secondary issue. No one if forced to ask for forgiveness of sins for the departed loved one. It is done on a voluntary basis. And not everybody asks for forgiveness of sins. You do realize that, don't you? If you make pominki a primary issue, then you must make Calvinism/Arminianism a primary issue also. You do know that the Arminian says that Jesus work on the cross is not enough to save a man. And as you stated before, you do not consider this a primary issue. Maybe you should refresh Arminianism and what it teaches. Dr. J.I. Packer, author of the classic work Knowing God summarized the Arminian position as put forth in the remonstrance: 1) Man is never so completely corrupted by sin that he cannot savingly believe the gospel when it is put before him; 2) Man is never so completely controlled by God that he cannot reject God's grace; 3) Election is a result of God, looking down through the corridors of time, foreseeing that a sinner will accept Christ. Therefore, God elects those who first elect Him. 4) Christ's death did not ensure the salvation of anyone, for it did not secure the gift of faith (for the Remonstrance there was no such gift); what it did was rather to create a possibility of salvation for everyone if they would only choose to believe. 5) It ultimately rests with the believers to keep themselves in a state of grace by keeping up their faith. Those who fail here fall away and are lost. Dr. Packer concludes: "Arminianism made man's salvation depend ultimately on man himself, saving faith being viewed throughout as man's own work." So why do you turn a blind eye towards the Arminian view of a works based salvation? Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest 2 Report post Posted October 25, 2010 You have a right to your opinion. But you are still wrong by making pominki a primary issue. That is why you keep avoiding the Calvinism/Arminianism issue. Arminianism is a heresy/cult by your standards of judgement. You are obviously not seeing this. At the end of the day, how much time do you want to spend on pominki? I brought up the deity of Jesus. You brought up pominki. It would seem that your priorities are out of order. Pominki is not a primary issue. There is a lack of consistency in your religious classifications. You are expecting perfection from secondary issues, and there is not one church that is perfect with the secondary issues. It is the primary issues that need to be fought for. Arguing over secondary is a waste of time. Kevin Nazaroff Enough with your issues Kev-boy. Look at the MOLOKAN Calendar. Probably half of the year is taken up with pomiki's. It is a primary issue buddy. The 'dela' even is done in place of/over the the sabbath day. Who cares if it's the 100th place of your supposed issue hierarchy, it's still there. You're the one who arguing over that it is a secondary issue no one else. Going to your Calvary Harvest fest too! Your little children dressed up as little soldiers. How cute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 25, 2010 This is not an opinion The molokan "church" cannot say on one hand I believe in Jesus and then add pomenki or ANYTHING else for "salvation" I'm rather surprised you're not getting this StevePiv has told you the EXACT same thing These are not opinions based on whim You have a right to your opinion. But you are still wrong by making pominki a primary issue. That is why you keep avoiding the Calvinism/Arminianism issue. Arminianism is a heresy/cult by your standards of judgement. You are obviously not seeing this. At the end of the day, how much time do you want to spend on pominki? I brought up the deity of Jesus. You brought up pominki. It would seem that your priorities are out of order. Pominki is not a primary issue. There is a lack of consistency in your religious classifications. You are expecting perfection from secondary issues, and there is not one church that is perfect with the secondary issues. It is the primary issues that need to be fought for. Arguing over secondary is a waste of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevepiv 0 Report post Posted October 25, 2010 It IS a Primary issue. People are NOT fully trusting in the Work of Jesus Christ on The Cross and Him being the Propitiation for our sins. This ritual has de-sensitized many in the URGENCY to Seek the Lord while He may be found. It has de-sensitized many people into thinking that Repentance and Faith aren't important. Because, they are told they have been "born into" this "faith". And, this ritual has deceived many into thinking that if this prayer is done, God will forgive their sins and it doesn't matter if a person believes or not while living. Just as long as they stayed Molokan and have this prayer. It IS a Primary issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 26, 2010 This is not an opinion The molokan "church" cannot say on one hand I believe in Jesus and then add pomenki or ANYTHING else for "salvation" I'm rather surprised you're not getting this StevePiv has told you the EXACT same thing These are not opinions based on whim You have a right to your opinion. But you are still wrong by making pominki a primary issue. That is why you keep avoiding the Calvinism/Arminianism issue. Arminianism is a heresy/cult by your standards of judgement. You are obviously not seeing this. At the end of the day, how much time do you want to spend on pominki? I brought up the deity of Jesus. You brought up pominki. It would seem that your priorities are out of order. Pominki is not a primary issue. There is a lack of consistency in your religious classifications. You are expecting perfection from secondary issues, and there is not one church that is perfect with the secondary issues. It is the primary issues that need to be fought for. Arguing over secondary is a waste of time. And I am surprised that you guys are wanting to spend so much time on pominki. When I brought up the deity of Jesus, you guys responded with pominki. When you want to discuss who Jesus is, without diverting to religious talking points, let me know. For now, both of you are bent on making a point. There is nothing wrong with discussing pominki. But this started out as a discussion about "who Jesus is", and apparently we can not even continue without these religious "side steps". Which is more important? Preaching who God is? Or preaching who God is not? Both need to be addressed, but the question needs to be considered. Where is my passion. What do I spend most of my time thinking about? 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:21 AV Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 26, 2010 (edited) It IS a Primary issue. People are NOT fully trusting in the Work of Jesus Christ on The Cross and Him being the Propitiation for our sins. This ritual has de-sensitized many in the URGENCY to Seek the Lord while He may be found. It has de-sensitized many people into thinking that Repentance and Faith aren't important. Because, they are told they have been "born into" this "faith". And, this ritual has deceived many into thinking that if this prayer is done, God will forgive their sins and it doesn't matter if a person believes or not while living. Just as long as they stayed Molokan and have this prayer. It IS a Primary issue. Paul could have spent a bulk of his time exposing the false gods. But he did not spend the bulk of his time doing this. What he did spend his time doing is told to us here in acts. "Him declare I unto you". 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. Acts 17:23 AV I believe this should be at the heart of any ministry. Declaring "Him", should be heard more than declaring "him not". Him declare I unto you. Kevin Nazaroff Edited October 26, 2010 by KevinPolyaNazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevepiv 0 Report post Posted October 26, 2010 It IS a Primary issue. People are NOT fully trusting in the Work of Jesus Christ on The Cross and Him being the Propitiation for our sins. This ritual has de-sensitized many in the URGENCY to Seek the Lord while He may be found. It has de-sensitized many people into thinking that Repentance and Faith aren't important. Because, they are told they have been "born into" this "faith". And, this ritual has deceived many into thinking that if this prayer is done, God will forgive their sins and it doesn't matter if a person believes or not while living. Just as long as they stayed Molokan and have this prayer. It IS a Primary issue. Paul could have spent a bulk of his time exposing the false gods. But he did not spend the bulk of his time doing this. What he did spend his time doing is told to us here in acts. "Him declare I unto you". 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. Acts 17:23 AV I believe this should be at the heart of any ministry. Declaring "Him", should be heard more than declaring "him not". Him declare I unto you. Kevin Nazaroff Kevin, Thanks for tposting that Scripture. That is true that we should be saying "Thus sayeth The Lord..." and read from His Word, The Bible. Many times we can all get into Apologetic's and get into debates rather than Declaring and Proclaiming Christ Crucified and The Gospel Message. Also, keep in mind in the portion of Paul's sermon, he did mention so "no's" and "not's" as well. I always saw that Acts 17:23 to the end of chapter as the Gospel Message from Genesis to Revelation in 7-8 verses. There is so much wealth and treasure in that Scripture it's Amazing! Praise God!! To come to a conclusion on Article 1, yes the Molokans of 1805 had Article 1 correct. Are you planning on going through each one??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest jkornoff Report post Posted October 27, 2010 This is not an opinion The molokan "church" cannot say on one hand I believe in Jesus and then add pomenki or ANYTHING else for "salvation" I'm rather surprised you're not getting this StevePiv has told you the EXACT same thing These are not opinions based on whim You have a right to your opinion. But you are still wrong by making pominki a primary issue. That is why you keep avoiding the Calvinism/Arminianism issue. Arminianism is a heresy/cult by your standards of judgement. You are obviously not seeing this. At the end of the day, how much time do you want to spend on pominki? I brought up the deity of Jesus. You brought up pominki. It would seem that your priorities are out of order. Pominki is not a primary issue. There is a lack of consistency in your religious classifications. You are expecting perfection from secondary issues, and there is not one church that is perfect with the secondary issues. It is the primary issues that need to be fought for. Arguing over secondary is a waste of time. And I am surprised that you guys are wanting to spend so much time on pominki. When I brought up the deity of Jesus, you guys responded with pominki. When you want to discuss who Jesus is, without diverting to religious talking points, let me know. For now, both of you are bent on making a point. There is nothing wrong with discussing pominki. But this started out as a discussion about "who Jesus is", and apparently we can not even continue without these religious "side steps". Which is more important? Preaching who God is? Or preaching who God is not? Both need to be addressed, but the question needs to be considered. Where is my passion. What do I spend most of my time thinking about? 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:21 AV Kevin Nazaroff Kevin, Just like we say and post things "in context" is the same way we should treat any literature (even the dogma articles). I have not read all of them, but we can't just take one article out of context and say that it's ok for everything else. You must take all of the articles as a whole, just like we do to the Bible. Does this make sense or am I just crazy? Regarding the Diety of Jesus, only God can reveal that to an individual. For some people it's even hard to even understand the fact that Christ can live in a person at the same time he lives in millions of other Christians at the same time around the world. Jeremy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 27, 2010 This is not an opinion The molokan "church" cannot say on one hand I believe in Jesus and then add pomenki or ANYTHING else for "salvation" I'm rather surprised you're not getting this StevePiv has told you the EXACT same thing These are not opinions based on whim You have a right to your opinion. But you are still wrong by making pominki a primary issue. That is why you keep avoiding the Calvinism/Arminianism issue. Arminianism is a heresy/cult by your standards of judgement. You are obviously not seeing this. At the end of the day, how much time do you want to spend on pominki? I brought up the deity of Jesus. You brought up pominki. It would seem that your priorities are out of order. Pominki is not a primary issue. There is a lack of consistency in your religious classifications. You are expecting perfection from secondary issues, and there is not one church that is perfect with the secondary issues. It is the primary issues that need to be fought for. Arguing over secondary is a waste of time. And I am surprised that you guys are wanting to spend so much time on pominki. When I brought up the deity of Jesus, you guys responded with pominki. When you want to discuss who Jesus is, without diverting to religious talking points, let me know. For now, both of you are bent on making a point. There is nothing wrong with discussing pominki. But this started out as a discussion about "who Jesus is", and apparently we can not even continue without these religious "side steps". Which is more important? Preaching who God is? Or preaching who God is not? Both need to be addressed, but the question needs to be considered. Where is my passion. What do I spend most of my time thinking about? 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Matthew 6:21 AV Kevin Nazaroff Kevin, Just like we say and post things "in context" is the same way we should treat any literature (even the dogma articles). I have not read all of them, but we can't just take one article out of context and say that it's ok for everything else. You must take all of the articles as a whole, just like we do to the Bible. Does this make sense or am I just crazy? Regarding the Diety of Jesus, only God can reveal that to an individual. For some people it's even hard to even understand the fact that Christ can live in a person at the same time he lives in millions of other Christians at the same time around the world. Jeremy Thanks brother Jeremy. No, you are not crazy. I agree that they all need to be addressed. What I was trying to do was differentiate between the most important ones. Have a good day. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 29, 2010 Enough with your issues Kev-boy. Look at the MOLOKAN Calendar. Probably half of the year is taken up with pomiki's. It is a primary issue buddy. The 'dela' even is done in place of/over the the sabbath day. Who cares if it's the 100th place of your supposed issue hierarchy, it's still there. You're the one who arguing over that it is a secondary issue no one else. Going to your Calvary Harvest fest too! Your little children dressed up as little soldiers. How cute. Throughout the whole course of our ministry, we must insist chiefly upon the greatest, most certain, and most necessary truths, and be more seldom and sparing upon the rest. If we can but teach Christ to our people, we shall teach them all. Get them well to heaven, and they will have knowledge enough. The great and commonly acknowledged truths of religions are those that men must live upon, and which are the great instruments of destroying men's sins, and raising the heart to God. Richard Baxter (1651-91) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest 2 Report post Posted October 29, 2010 Enough with your issues Kev-boy. Look at the MOLOKAN Calendar. Probably half of the year is taken up with pomiki's. It is a primary issue buddy. The 'dela' even is done in place of/over the the sabbath day. Who cares if it's the 100th place of your supposed issue hierarchy, it's still there. You're the one who arguing over that it is a secondary issue no one else. Going to your Calvary Harvest fest too! Your little children dressed up as little soldiers. How cute. Throughout the whole course of our ministry, we must insist chiefly upon the greatest, most certain, and most necessary truths, and be more seldom and sparing upon the rest. If we can but teach Christ to our people, we shall teach them all. Get them well to heaven, and they will have knowledge enough. The great and commonly acknowledged truths of religions are those that men must live upon, and which are the great instruments of destroying men's sins, and raising the heart to God. Richard Baxter (1651-91) I was talking to you not Mr. Baxter. I know some of what I have been sayin is some pretty low blows but it's truth for a lukewarm compromising person. Jesus didn't preach to the same people over and over and over and over again. Some believed and followed Him, some walked away, others wanted to kill Him, even in his hometown. What makes you think you are different or better than Jesus? Remember a while back you posted a splice of a sermon by Carton Conlon titled Run for your lives. Why don't listen to it in it's entirety. Look it up on sermonindex.net. It'll be worth anyone's while Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted October 29, 2010 I was talking to you not Mr. Baxter. I know some of what I have been sayin is some pretty low blows but it's truth for a lukewarm compromising person. I know what it is like to be broken over my own sin. I know what it is like to be brought down low by God Almighty. I have been broken to pieces by our Lord Jesus. I have personally experienced what it means to repent of my own sin. On the contrary, the things that you are telling me are completely works of the flesh. I commend you for your care and concern. But I plead with you to seek the leading of the Holy Spirit, and not your own flesh. God's presence be with you in a special way today. Thank you for your concern. Kevin Nazaroff Jesus didn't preach to the same people over and over and over and over again. Some believed and followed Him, some walked away, others wanted to kill Him, even in his hometown. What makes you think you are different or better than Jesus? Remember a while back you posted a splice of a sermon by Carton Conlon titled Run for your lives. Why don't listen to it in it's entirety. Look it up on sermonindex.net. It'll be worth anyone's while Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted October 30, 2010 Kevin: This is where I get a little confused Obviously we agree about who Jesus is and the Tri-Hypostasis and it certainly is the core of the Judeo-Christian Faith However, as Jeremy and others on this form reiterated it's all about context My perception is you continue to point to article 1 as some way to justify the cult as if to say "look there, molokans are Christians because they made this statement" The problem is you cannot couple lies with Truth As stated before, regardless of the profession, where is the evidence of this alleged "Christianity" Is it found in the racism, seances, forefatherism, other "Messiah", works based "Salvation" or perhaps in the utter lack of consistent Biblio-centric teaching You know full well what the tenets of the cult are in the 21st century Would you please clarify Are you advocating the cult is somehow Christian? Again, I'm making the differentiation between the cult hierarchy/"leadership" and the Bible based Christians who still regularly attend such a place Thanks brother Jeremy. No, you are not crazy. I agree that they all need to be addressed. What I was trying to do was differentiate between the most important ones. Have a good day. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Paul Orloff Report post Posted October 31, 2010 Kevin, What do you think must be going on in God's Head every time He hears people gathering for a dead person to ask Him to forgive the sins of that person who is allready with Him or eternaly apart from Him? What do you think He feels when unsaved people are running churches teaching others everything you want to know about religion but nothing about Jesus on The Cross? Do you think He takes this lightly? In this instance of people relying on other's prayers to save them when the pass on, it is EXTREMELY a PRIMARY issue! It's a lie and who is the author of lies?! It makes me furious to think about it, and it should make you too. Pominkee ILLIMINATES Jesus on the Cross! May God have mercy on them that continue to teach this and force it on others in the Molokan churches. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2010 Kevin: This is where I get a little confused Obviously we agree about who Jesus is and the Tri-Hypostasis and it certainly is the core of the Judeo-Christian Faith Yes, agreed. 5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD (YAHWEH), that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (YAHWEH) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:5–6 AV There is a King coming in David’s line. The king, Coniah and all of his line, although they are in David’s line, shall be rejected and cut off. However, no one can destroy God’s purpose, although they may think they can. God knows what He will do. We know from the New Testament that through another line, the line of Nathan, another son of David, came a peasant by the name of Mary, a girl up in Nazareth, who bore Jesus, the Messiah, the King. When Jesus presented Himself to the world, He said, “… Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt. 4:17). Since you can’t have a kingdom without the king, in effect He was saying to the people, “Your King is here!” The people rejected the King, but He had the last word. He said that someday the King would come back and set up that kingdom.......... Have you ever heard of this as a plank in a political platform? I have never heard a candidate claim that he is righteous and that he will follow God’s plan and program for government. I’ve heard politicians make almost every other claim under the sun but that one! They wouldn’t dare make it. But righteousness will characterize the Kingdom when the Lord Jesus Christ reigns. J.V. McGee However, as Jeremy and others on this form reiterated it's all about context My perception is you continue to point to article 1 as some way to justify the cult as if to say "look there, molokans are Christians because they made this statement" Article one is a foundational truth of any Christian group. It must be addressed and given its proper perspective. It is more than a statement. It is the truth. It is the foundation of Christianity. Why is it so difficult to accept that molokans believe this? There are elders who believe this. I know you want proof, but I do not feel it necessary to start listing names. I am not trying to justify molokanism. What I am doing is looking at the facts, historically and currently. And the fact of the matter is, molokanism was founded on the Jesus Christ of the bible. And there is a small group of molokans who have held on to that same foundation. The problem is you cannot couple lies with Truth To acknowledge the historical proof of molokanism's belief in the biblical Jesus is not an attempt to "couple lies with truth". Differences in secondary issues do not override truths of primary issues. Secondary issues are equivalent to the death that was found in a pot of stew in the days of Elisha. The stew was infected with "death", but not beyond cure. It was not necessary to throw out the whole pot. The "cure" was added to the stew and "wiped out" the "death". 38 When Elisha returned to Gilgal, there was a famine in the land. As the sons of the prophets were sitting before him, he said to his servant, “Put on the large pot and boil stew for the sons of the prophets.” 39 Then one went out into the field to gather herbs, and found a wild vine and gathered from it his lap full of wild gourds, and came and sliced them into the pot of stew, for they did not know what they were. 40 So they poured it out for the men to eat. And as they were eating of the stew, they cried out and said, “O man of God, there is death in the pot.” And they were unable to eat. 41 But he said, “Now bring meal.” He threw it into the pot and said, “Pour it out for the people that they may eat.” Then there was no harm in the pot. 42 Now a man came from Baal-shalishah, and brought the man of God bread of the first fruits, twenty loaves of barley and fresh ears of grain in his sack. And he said, “Give them to the people that they may eat.” 43 His attendant said, “What, will I set this before a hundred men?” But he said, “Give them to the people that they may eat, for thus says the LORD, ‘They shall eat and have some left over.’ ” 44 So he set it before them, and they ate and had some left over, according to the word of the LORD. 2 Kings 4:38–44 NAS Would you please clarify Are you advocating the cult is somehow Christian? Again, I'm making the differentiation between the cult hierarchy/"leadership" and the Bible based Christians who still regularly attend such a place I am saying that molokanism is not a cult. Just as you choose to make a differentiation between hierarchy and attendees, I also make a differentiation between maximist and molokans. I also make a distinction between priguni and postayani. As a final note, I want to say that regardless of the definition of molokan, our definition should have no impact on whether someone should stay or go. Molokanism does not need to be classified as a cult in order for someone to heed God's calling to leave. God calls people to serve Him according to His good purpose. I seek to heed His calling, and not my own, and not the molokans, and not anybody here on this forum. My status as molokon is completely up to God. Some have mentioned the "freedom" that they have experienced in leaving. Apostle Paul talks about this freedom also. I have also experienced this freedom to a certain degree. While I do not want to be a slave to sin or religion, I do consider myself a slave to God, and if He wants me to remain in a situation that is not the most "comfortable", then so be it. I am not looking for comfort in molokanism, as some of the guests have suggested. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest 2 Report post Posted November 1, 2010 I was talking to you not Mr. Baxter. I know some of what I have been sayin is some pretty low blows but it's truth for a lukewarm compromising person. I know what it is like to be broken over my own sin. I know what it is like to be brought down low by God Almighty. I have been broken to pieces by our Lord Jesus. I have personally experienced what it means to repent of my own sin. On the contrary, the things that you are telling me are completely works of the flesh. I commend you for your care and concern. But I plead with you to seek the leading of the Holy Spirit, and not your own flesh. God's presence be with you in a special way today. Thank you for your concern. Kevin Nazaroff Jesus didn't preach to the same people over and over and over and over again. Some believed and followed Him, some walked away, others wanted to kill Him, even in his hometown. What makes you think you are different or better than Jesus? Remember a while back you posted a splice of a sermon by Carton Conlon titled Run for your lives. Why don't listen to it in it's entirety. Look it up on sermonindex.net. It'll be worth anyone's while Works of the flesh or your fruit? Instead of bringing up arguments here, if you think molokonism is just a little sick and needs you help. Stay, have you extini for your daughter and other dela's , what's the big deal. You are leaning on those notions, why bring it up here and have to say it to everyone. I don't get it. You have been corrected and fail to adhere to God's wriiten word. You use quotations from everyone. Do you not believe 2 Timothy 3:16? You seem to look at a lot of other scripture. This goes for others on this forum also. Is the Bible sufficient? Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,But a wise man is he who listens to counsel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2010 Kevin, What do you think must be going on in God's Head every time He hears people gathering for a dead person to ask Him to forgive the sins of that person who is allready with Him or eternaly apart from Him? What do you think He feels when unsaved people are running churches teaching others everything you want to know about religion but nothing about Jesus on The Cross? Do you think He takes this lightly? In this instance of people relying on other's prayers to save them when the pass on, it is EXTREMELY a PRIMARY issue! It's a lie and who is the author of lies?! It makes me furious to think about it, and it should make you too. Pominkee ILLIMINATES Jesus on the Cross! May God have mercy on them that continue to teach this and force it on others in the Molokan churches. Hey Paul, Scripture is clear that no man can save his brother. Salvation is a work that God alone can perform. 7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: Psalm 49:7 AV I am greatly concerned, but to get angry over "pominke" and other secondary issues is very dangerous. Pominkee, if kept in its proper biblical perspective, does not eliminate Jesus. Pominkee can be a time of comfort for the family in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is very, very unfortunate that some have a misunderstanding of biblical salvation. There are two extremes in the religion of molokanism. 1. If you go outside of the box of molokanism, then you are a part of the false ecumenical 666 devil church. 2. If you in any way associate with the molokan church, then you are a part of the false ecumenical 666 devil church. I reject both. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevepiv 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2010 I am greatly concerned, but to get angry over "pominke" and other secondary issues is very dangerous. Pominkee, if kept in its proper biblical perspective, does not eliminate Jesus. Pominkee can be a time of comfort for the family in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is very, very unfortunate that some have a misunderstanding of biblical salvation. There are two extremes in the religion of molokanism. 1. If you go outside of the box of molokanism, then you are a part of the false ecumenical 666 devil church. 2. If you in any way associate with the molokan church, then you are a part of the false ecumenical 666 devil church. I reject both. Kevin Nazaroff Kevin, I repeat myself again. For you and the others that KNOW the proper place for Pominkee, it IS a secondary issue. BUT...There ARE people who do NOT, and for THEM, it IS a PRIMARY ISSUE. Why???... THEY, not you, ARE trusting in THEIR good work or petition. I had an elder tell me that a person can die, and during the person's lifetime NEVER Repent, NEVER Trust in the Atonement and Payment of Jesus Christ, YET when they have POMINKEE, that this IS GOD'S Ultimate Grace to forgive that person who died and rejected Him all their life. That DOES NOT sound like a "secondary" issue, like you have been saying. Kevin, YOU have put labels on things that are secondary, and granted I agree that there are certain things that are. But, anything that is "another gospel" is a Primary Issue, because it IS an ATTACK on the Work of Jesus Christ!!!! You say: It is very, very unfortunate that some have a misunderstanding of biblical salvation. Unfortunate is a term for the living, because we can pray and minister to these individuals with God's Word. But for the dead that already died with trusting in this prayer that as one elder recently told me "I know when I die someone will ask for sins to be forgiven, I may not have had a chance that day." I am terrifed for those people, and angered that this false hope is taught and accepted in the religion of molokan. POMINKEE the way it stands TODAY makes the molokan gospel- ANOTHER GOSPEL OTHER THAN WHAT IS IN THE BIBLE. And, when you mention: 2. If you in any way associate with the molokan church, then you are a part of the false ecumenical 666 devil church. What do you mean by associate? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2010 Kevin, I repeat myself again. For you and the others that KNOW the proper place for Pominkee, it IS a secondary issue. BUT...There ARE people who do NOT, and for THEM, it IS a PRIMARY ISSUE. As an individual, the primary issue would not be that they believe bad doctrine. Their primary issue is that they have a bad heart. I will give an example of this. If a person who is living in and is consumed by the sin of lust, but then comes to the realization that he is going to hell, where should he focus his attention? On overcoming sin? Or should he focus on Jesus? You see, his problem is not lust, although lust is a problem. His main problem is his bad heart. And until God gives him a new heart, there is no amount of truth or doctrine that can help him. If all he does is focus on overcoming his sin, then his focus is self. Self-ishness was his problem in the first place. But if he focuses on Jesus, and Jesus gives him a new heart, then Jesus will continue to work out all of the other issues, including the lust. The same process for a group of believers. (the church) Lust is a ripple effect from the drop of a bad heart. The drop (evil heart) causes the ripple (lust). Praying for the salvation of the deceased is also a ripple effect from the drop of an unconverted heart. You do not stop the ripple effect by focusing on the ripple. (praying for the dead) You stop the ripple effect by stopping the drop. And what is causing the drop of bad doctrine? That is the real issue. There is nothing wrong with discussing pominki. But we must remember that it is not praying for the deceased that is causing people to go to hell. I am sure that my thought can be refined. But this is the direction of where I am coming from. I hope this makes sense. And I would love to discuss this more. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2010 You say Just as you choose to make a differentiation between hierarchy and attendees, I also make a differentiation between maximist and molokans. I also make a distinction between priguni and postayani. I have to say GARBAGE Since the cult of molokanism has the s&l as an INTEGRAL part of "church" it IS a cult There is no "kinda' cult" about it You say Article one is a foundational truth of any Christian group. It must be addressed and given its proper perspective. It is more than a statement. It is the truth. It is the foundation of Christianity. Why is it so difficult to accept that molokans believe this? There are elders who believe this. I know you want proof, but I do not feel it necessary to start listing names. Again I have to say GARBAGE I don't need names... I'd like to see EVIDENCE Where are the Mexican, Black or Asian molokans? Why is there prayer for the dead? Why are traditions held in HIGHER regard than Biblical Truth? Why are "halfers", Persians or the divorced treated as second class citizens in the cult? You say Article one is a foundational truth of any Christian group. It must be addressed and given its proper perspective. It is more than a statement. It is the truth. It is the foundation of Christianity. I agree with the words that are contained within Article 1 but they have no bearing on the cult today What about the ever important CONTEXT You CANNOT say the cult of molokanism agrees with Article One AND article 23 They are mutually exclusive They CANNOT coexist in harmony... PERIOD I don't care what the words contained in say if there is NO EVIDENCE You say I want to say that regardless of the definition of molokan, our definition should have no impact on whether someone should stay or go.I have to ask of what spiritual benefit does regular attendance at a cult have for the Christian Now if this is ministry that's different The molokan "church" CANNOT be a primary Church for the Christian Ministry is service from the overflow in a Spirit filled Christians life If one is not being REGULARLY fed the Word and in REGULAR fellowship with Christians there cannot be ministry out of an overflowing life You cannot give what you do not have You say I am not trying to justify molokanism. What I am doing is looking at the facts, historically and currently. And the fact of the matter is, molokanism was founded on the Jesus Christ of the bible. And there is a small group of molokans who have held on to that same foundation. Article 1 AND 23 were written at the SAME TIME in 1803 Where is the EVIDENCE of this "small group of molokans who have held on to that same foundation."? If article was there since 1803, that is a flawed foundation Kevin: This is where I get a little confused Obviously we agree about who Jesus is and the Tri-Hypostasis and it certainly is the core of the Judeo-Christian Faith Yes, agreed. 5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD (YAHWEH), that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (YAHWEH) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:5–6 AV There is a King coming in David's line. The king, Coniah and all of his line, although they are in David's line, shall be rejected and cut off. However, no one can destroy God's purpose, although they may think they can. God knows what He will do. We know from the New Testament that through another line, the line of Nathan, another son of David, came a peasant by the name of Mary, a girl up in Nazareth, who bore Jesus, the Messiah, the King. When Jesus presented Himself to the world, He said, "… Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt. 4:17). Since you can't have a kingdom without the king, in effect He was saying to the people, "Your King is here!" The people rejected the King, but He had the last word. He said that someday the King would come back and set up that kingdom.......... Have you ever heard of this as a plank in a political platform? I have never heard a candidate claim that he is righteous and that he will follow God's plan and program for government. I've heard politicians make almost every other claim under the sun but that one! They wouldn't dare make it. But righteousness will characterize the Kingdom when the Lord Jesus Christ reigns. J.V. McGee However, as Jeremy and others on this form reiterated it's all about context My perception is you continue to point to article 1 as some way to justify the cult as if to say "look there, molokans are Christians because they made this statement" Article one is a foundational truth of any Christian group. It must be addressed and given its proper perspective. It is more than a statement. It is the truth. It is the foundation of Christianity. Why is it so difficult to accept that molokans believe this? There are elders who believe this. I know you want proof, but I do not feel it necessary to start listing names. I am not trying to justify molokanism. What I am doing is looking at the facts, historically and currently. And the fact of the matter is, molokanism was founded on the Jesus Christ of the bible. And there is a small group of molokans who have held on to that same foundation. The problem is you cannot couple lies with Truth To acknowledge the historical proof of molokanism's belief in the biblical Jesus is not an attempt to "couple lies with truth". Differences in secondary issues do not override truths of primary issues. Secondary issues are equivalent to the death that was found in a pot of stew in the days of Elisha. The stew was infected with "death", but not beyond cure. It was not necessary to throw out the whole pot. The "cure" was added to the stew and "wiped out" the "death". 38 When Elisha returned to Gilgal, there was a famine in the land. As the sons of the prophets were sitting before him, he said to his servant, "Put on the large pot and boil stew for the sons of the prophets." 39 Then one went out into the field to gather herbs, and found a wild vine and gathered from it his lap full of wild gourds, and came and sliced them into the pot of stew, for they did not know what they were. 40 So they poured it out for the men to eat. And as they were eating of the stew, they cried out and said, "O man of God, there is death in the pot." And they were unable to eat. 41 But he said, "Now bring meal." He threw it into the pot and said, "Pour it out for the people that they may eat." Then there was no harm in the pot. 42 Now a man came from Baal-shalishah, and brought the man of God bread of the first fruits, twenty loaves of barley and fresh ears of grain in his sack. And he said, "Give them to the people that they may eat." 43 His attendant said, "What, will I set this before a hundred men?" But he said, "Give them to the people that they may eat, for thus says the LORD, 'They shall eat and have some left over.' " 44 So he set it before them, and they ate and had some left over, according to the word of the LORD. 2 Kings 4:38–44 NAS Would you please clarify Are you advocating the cult is somehow Christian? Again, I'm making the differentiation between the cult hierarchy/"leadership" and the Bible based Christians who still regularly attend such a place I am saying that molokanism is not a cult. Just as you choose to make a differentiation between hierarchy and attendees, I also make a differentiation between maximist and molokans. I also make a distinction between priguni and postayani. As a final note, I want to say that regardless of the definition of molokan, our definition should have no impact on whether someone should stay or go. Molokanism does not need to be classified as a cult in order for someone to heed God's calling to leave. God calls people to serve Him according to His good purpose. I seek to heed His calling, and not my own, and not the molokans, and not anybody here on this forum. My status as molokon is completely up to God. Some have mentioned the "freedom" that they have experienced in leaving. Apostle Paul talks about this freedom also. I have also experienced this freedom to a certain degree. While I do not want to be a slave to sin or religion, I do consider myself a slave to God, and if He wants me to remain in a situation that is not the most "comfortable", then so be it. I am not looking for comfort in molokanism, as some of the guests have suggested. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Paul Orloff Report post Posted November 2, 2010 Kevin, What do you think must be going on in God's Head every time He hears people gathering for a dead person to ask Him to forgive the sins of that person who is allready with Him or eternaly apart from Him? What do you think He feels when unsaved people are running churches teaching others everything you want to know about religion but nothing about Jesus on The Cross? Do you think He takes this lightly? In this instance of people relying on other's prayers to save them when the pass on, it is EXTREMELY a PRIMARY issue! It's a lie and who is the author of lies?! It makes me furious to think about it, and it should make you too. Pominkee ILLIMINATES Jesus on the Cross! May God have mercy on them that continue to teach this and force it on others in the Molokan churches. Hey Paul, Scripture is clear that no man can save his brother. Salvation is a work that God alone can perform. 7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: Psalm 49:7 AV I am greatly concerned, but to get angry over "pominke" and other secondary issues is very dangerous. Pominkee, if kept in its proper biblical perspective, does not eliminate Jesus. Pominkee can be a time of comfort for the family in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is very, very unfortunate that some have a misunderstanding of biblical salvation. There are two extremes in the religion of molokanism. 1. If you go outside of the box of molokanism, then you are a part of the false ecumenical 666 devil church. 2. If you in any way associate with the molokan church, then you are a part of the false ecumenical 666 devil church. I reject both. Kevin Nazaroff Kevin, Please let us all know on here of who you all have been very open with, let us know how it goes when you share the Word of God in regard to pominkee to them that beleive it IS the word of God? If you are going back to openly share this- then God be With you. If you are "going back" to preach so much of the Truth that you have been sharing with us on here, then I support you 100% Brother :-) If you are going back to partake of that which is against God, then just know I will love you as I always have and will be here for when you leave todays Molokan cult once and for all. Not only I but everyone else I am sure. I am not angry just bewildered. Just a bit of Irony to share. When my brother John commited suicide 11 years ago, the church would not allow us to have the prayer right after the burial. They MADE us wait a week and then we were able to have a doing but we could only ask for the forgivness of ALL our other deceased molokan relatives sins and add the sins of John in there. (This is not cultish) I was not a christian back then and the whole thing was handled wierd but still there was much comfort by many individuals, many molokan and many not. Many Athiests were even very comforting too. Molokanism as a whole wants no part of these types of situations, not just that church but many or all of them. Why is it that when a VERY self rightous "good" religious well-known man dies, they have three services and then when a piece of dirt dies there is barely one allowed? Kevin, if these decisions are really a calling from God, what do you make of it? Did He truly call you out to then go and call you back in? Brother, one question for now; If molokanism of today is not a cult, then what is? If a person is told they they cannot ask forgivness of a child or sibling's sins that commits suicide and that person who hears those words feels that is the difference between thier child or brother going to heaven or hell, then that is as primary as you can get. Paul Orloff P.s. Risher Mortuary said that we could hide the suicide part as MANY other familes have done in the past and continue to do, what does one make of that? Many families want the glory to come inside the church walls. We choose opposite because, that sort of glory lasts only as long as that doing. How many people have been fooled into going to doings of a person who commited suicide? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevepiv 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2010 Last Sunday Molokans dressed up in their costumes for halloween, it was vintage 1800's clothing. So, I guess this week we will see everyone in their normal clothes, not their special "russian shirt" according to this article: Article 7 - Using the Ornates We have no ornates, because the Apostles had no special dress for divine services and Jesus Christ himself did not create such vestments. As the holy Apostles have wandered in plain clothes, so we are also praying in our regular garments. Concerning the use of ornates we take it for granted to be always clothed for salvation and always be dressed with truth according to Ephesians 6:19, "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice." Ecclesiastes 9:8, "At all times let thy garments be white, and let not oil depart from thy head." Isaiah 69:17, "...he put on the garments of vengeance, and was clad with zeal as with a cloak." And in 61:10, "...my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, and with the robe of justice..." Revelations 3:4-5, "...which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, because they are worthy. He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevepiv 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2010 Kevin, I repeat myself again. For you and the others that KNOW the proper place for Pominkee, it IS a secondary issue. BUT...There ARE people who do NOT, and for THEM, it IS a PRIMARY ISSUE. As an individual, the primary issue would not be that they believe bad doctrine. Their primary issue is that they have a bad heart. I will give an example of this. If a person who is living in and is consumed by the sin of lust, but then comes to the realization that he is going to hell, where should he focus his attention? On overcoming sin? Or should he focus on Jesus? You see, his problem is not lust, although lust is a problem. His main problem is his bad heart. And until God gives him a new heart, there is no amount of truth or doctrine that can help him. If all he does is focus on overcoming his sin, then his focus is self. Self-ishness was his problem in the first place. But if he focuses on Jesus, and Jesus gives him a new heart, then Jesus will continue to work out all of the other issues, including the lust. The same process for a group of believers. (the church) Lust is a ripple effect from the drop of a bad heart. The drop (evil heart) causes the ripple (lust). Praying for the salvation of the deceased is also a ripple effect from the drop of an unconverted heart. You do not stop the ripple effect by focusing on the ripple. (praying for the dead) You stop the ripple effect by stopping the drop. And what is causing the drop of bad doctrine? That is the real issue. There is nothing wrong with discussing pominki. But we must remember that it is not praying for the deceased that is causing people to go to hell. I am sure that my thought can be refined. But this is the direction of where I am coming from. I hope this makes sense. And I would love to discuss this more. Kevin Nazaroff Thanks Kevin for the response. I agree the sin and the wicked/deceitful heart ARE the Primary Issues. And, when a ritual is happening and has been happening that doesn't address the sinful heart, then it is a PRIMARY ISSUE. A person will go to hell for dying in their sins; rejecting the cure for Sin, which is The Blood of Jesus Christ. This ritual of Pominkee is a decetiful and clever way to put salvation in the control of mere men. The same goes for extinee and writing the baby's name in the book of life. They are PRIMARY and CALCULATED attacks and issues, that go against the Work of Jesus Christ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2010 You say Just as you choose to make a differentiation between hierarchy and attendees, I also make a differentiation between maximist and molokans. I also make a distinction between priguni and postayani. I have to say GARBAGE Since the cult of molokanism has the s&l as an INTEGRAL part of "church" it IS a cult There is no "kinda' cult" about it Garbage, yes. Anything compared to Jesus is garbage. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:7–9 AV But you still did not acknowledge what I said. There is a difference between a bible believing molokan and a maximist. You yourself made a distinction of molokans into three groups, did you not? Are we misunderstanding each other? You say Article one is a foundational truth of any Christian group. It must be addressed and given its proper perspective. It is more than a statement. It is the truth. It is the foundation of Christianity. I agree with the words that are contained within Article 1 but they have no bearing on the cult today What about the ever important CONTEXT You CANNOT say the cult of molokanism agrees with Article One AND article 23 They are mutually exclusive They CANNOT coexist in harmony... PERIOD I don't care what the words contained in say if there is NO EVIDENCE I do not agree with your statement "They CANNOT coexist in harmony... PERIOD". If you really mean that, then you are not being consistent with other doctrinal issues. You keep downplaying my questions to you in regards to Calvinism/Arminianism. A while back, you pretty much stopped that thread by proclaiming that it(free will) is not salvational. (primary issue) I can not believe that you will turn a blind eye toward the one issue, yet be so steadfast toward the other. And yes, they are the same thing. One replaces prayer for Jesus on the cross. The other replaces free will for Jesus on the cross. Either way, they are misunderstandings of who Jesus is. And how do you "fix" this misunderstanding? If you prove pominki wrong, and by some miracle, all the molokans churches stop having pominki, then what? Are the molokans better off now that pominki is gone? No. All religous groups will go from one doctrine to another, wether it be good or bad. The goal of Christianity is not to spread or destroy religion.(although that is one of the results of conversion) The goal of Christianity is to preach/teach Christ Jesus. I do not accept pominki as a primary issue. It is not worth the time we already spent on it. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinPolyaNazaroff 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2010 Kevin, What do you think must be going on in God's Head every time He hears people gathering for a dead person to ask Him to forgive the sins of that person who is allready with Him or eternaly apart from Him? What do you think He feels when unsaved people are running churches teaching others everything you want to know about religion but nothing about Jesus on The Cross? Do you think He takes this lightly? In this instance of people relying on other's prayers to save them when the pass on, it is EXTREMELY a PRIMARY issue! It's a lie and who is the author of lies?! It makes me furious to think about it, and it should make you too. Pominkee ILLIMINATES Jesus on the Cross! May God have mercy on them that continue to teach this and force it on others in the Molokan churches. Hey Paul, Scripture is clear that no man can save his brother. Salvation is a work that God alone can perform. 7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: Psalm 49:7 AV I am greatly concerned, but to get angry over "pominke" and other secondary issues is very dangerous. Pominkee, if kept in its proper biblical perspective, does not eliminate Jesus. Pominkee can be a time of comfort for the family in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is very, very unfortunate that some have a misunderstanding of biblical salvation. There are two extremes in the religion of molokanism. 1. If you go outside of the box of molokanism, then you are a part of the false ecumenical 666 devil church. 2. If you in any way associate with the molokan church, then you are a part of the false ecumenical 666 devil church. I reject both. Kevin Nazaroff Kevin, Please let us all know on here of who you all have been very open with, let us know how it goes when you share the Word of God in regard to pominkee to them that beleive it IS the word of God? If you are going back to openly share this- then God be With you. If you are "going back" to preach so much of the Truth that you have been sharing with us on here, then I support you 100% Brother :-) If you are going back to partake of that which is against God, then just know I will love you as I always have and will be here for when you leave todays Molokan cult once and for all. Not only I but everyone else I am sure. I am not angry just bewildered. Just a bit of Irony to share. When my brother John commited suicide 11 years ago, the church would not allow us to have the prayer right after the burial. They MADE us wait a week and then we were able to have a doing but we could only ask for the forgivness of ALL our other deceased molokan relatives sins and add the sins of John in there. (This is not cultish) I was not a christian back then and the whole thing was handled wierd but still there was much comfort by many individuals, many molokan and many not. Many Athiests were even very comforting too. Molokanism as a whole wants no part of these types of situations, not just that church but many or all of them. Why is it that when a VERY self rightous "good" religious well-known man dies, they have three services and then when a piece of dirt dies there is barely one allowed? Kevin, if these decisions are really a calling from God, what do you make of it? Did He truly call you out to then go and call you back in? Brother, one question for now; If molokanism of today is not a cult, then what is? If a person is told they they cannot ask forgivness of a child or sibling's sins that commits suicide and that person who hears those words feels that is the difference between thier child or brother going to heaven or hell, then that is as primary as you can get. Paul Orloff P.s. Risher Mortuary said that we could hide the suicide part as MANY other familes have done in the past and continue to do, what does one make of that? Many families want the glory to come inside the church walls. We choose opposite because, that sort of glory lasts only as long as that doing. How many people have been fooled into going to doings of a person who commited suicide? Paul, Thanks for sharing. You are always so willing to share not only your opinion, but your personal life and experience. That is not an easy thing to do. I wanted to share a quote I read yesterday that was encouraging. God bless. “If you are devoted to the cause of humanity, you will soon be exhausted and have your heart broken by ingratitude, but if the mainspring of your service is love for Jesus, you can serve men although they treat you as a door-mat.” Oswald Chambers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seeking_truth_1 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2010 You say If you prove pominki wrong, and by some miracle, all the molokans churches stop having pominki, then what? Are the molokans better off now that pominki is gone? No. All religous groups will go from one doctrine to another, wether it be good or bad. This is a BIG problem The issue is the spiritual significance placed upon pominki What is it's purpose? To "pray" someone into Heaven This is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the very core of Biblio-centric Christianity You are perpetuating a ceremony that has no value and provides a false hope to all who participate in it I'm not sure why you keep missing this The other point is you keep saying "Christian" and molokan in the same sentence Where is the EVIDENCE of this? Where is the community outreach? Where is the diverse ethnic make up of the cults congregants? (ie.. Black, Asian, Mexican molokans)? Where is the Bible teaching? Where is the shift in priority from the traditions of men to the Bible? Where is the compassion for the "ne-nash"? Why is there an adjunct "scripture" in EVERY cult "church"? Since all of these articles are, in their entirety, are a statement of faith for molokanism they CANNOT be parsed Either it is a statement of faith or it's not You say Just as you choose to make a differentiation between hierarchy and attendees, I also make a differentiation between maximist and molokans. I also make a distinction between priguni and postayani. I have to say GARBAGE Since the cult of molokanism has the s&l as an INTEGRAL part of "church" it IS a cult There is no "kinda' cult" about it Garbage, yes. Anything compared to Jesus is garbage. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:7–9 AV But you still did not acknowledge what I said. There is a difference between a bible believing molokan and a maximist. You yourself made a distinction of molokans into three groups, did you not? Are we misunderstanding each other? You say Article one is a foundational truth of any Christian group. It must be addressed and given its proper perspective. It is more than a statement. It is the truth. It is the foundation of Christianity. I agree with the words that are contained within Article 1 but they have no bearing on the cult today What about the ever important CONTEXT You CANNOT say the cult of molokanism agrees with Article One AND article 23 They are mutually exclusive They CANNOT coexist in harmony... PERIOD I don't care what the words contained in say if there is NO EVIDENCE I do not agree with your statement "They CANNOT coexist in harmony... PERIOD". If you really mean that, then you are not being consistent with other doctrinal issues. You keep downplaying my questions to you in regards to Calvinism/Arminianism. A while back, you pretty much stopped that thread by proclaiming that it(free will) is not salvational. (primary issue) I can not believe that you will turn a blind eye toward the one issue, yet be so steadfast toward the other. And yes, they are the same thing. One replaces prayer for Jesus on the cross. The other replaces free will for Jesus on the cross. Either way, they are misunderstandings of who Jesus is. And how do you "fix" this misunderstanding? If you prove pominki wrong, and by some miracle, all the molokans churches stop having pominki, then what? Are the molokans better off now that pominki is gone? No. All religous groups will go from one doctrine to another, wether it be good or bad. The goal of Christianity is not to spread or destroy religion.(although that is one of the results of conversion) The goal of Christianity is to preach/teach Christ Jesus. I do not accept pominki as a primary issue. It is not worth the time we already spent on it. Kevin Nazaroff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
