Article 23 - Commemoration of the Dead

[seeking_truth_1 0]

I'm not sure if I want to go point by on on this, but perhaps we'll investigate some of the more obvious problems with this statement of faith

 

Article 23 - Commemoration of the Dead

We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins will be forgiven, an example of what we see in God's word. Judah Machabee has offered a sacrifice for the dead. 2 Book Machabee 12:43, "...he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins..." (Read also verse 44.) Baruch 3:4-5, "O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel ... Remember not the iniquities of our fathers, but think upon thy hand, and upon thy name at this time."

 

Scripture does not allow for such a ritual

 

23 That is why the earthly tent and everything in it““which were copies of things in heaven““had to be purified by the blood of animals. But the real things in heaven had to be purified with far better sacrifices than the blood of animals.

24 For Christ has entered into heaven itself to appear now before God as our Advocate. He did not go into the earthly place of worship, for that was merely a copy of the real Temple in heaven.

25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the earthly high priest who enters the Most Holy Place year after year to offer the blood of an animal.

26 If that had been necessary, he would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But no! He came once for all time, at the end of the age, to remove the power of sin forever by his sacrificial death for us.

27 And just as it is destined that each person dies only once and after that comes judgment,

28 so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again but not to deal with our sins again. This time he will bring salvation to all those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Hebrews 9:23-28 NLT)

 

5 This is the message he has given us to announce to you: God is light and there is no darkness in him at all.

6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness. We are not living in the truth.

7 But if we are living in the light of God`s presence, just as Christ is, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from every sin. (1 John 1:5-7 NLT)

[LTTBT 0]

I'm not sure if I want to go point by on on this, but perhaps we'll investigate some of the more obvious problems with this statement of faith

 

Article 23 - Commemoration of the Dead

We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins Have been forgiven.

 

Not knowing the Sriritual status of the dead person, this is what I would pray

 

"O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel ... Remember not the iniquities of our fathers,mothers, brothers, sisters...

 

I see no problem with this. I added the red words.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

If they did not accept Jesus before they took their last breath, then it's too late

 

Again, what you are suggesting is not what many believe the purpose of this Commemoration is nor is it what is stated in Article 23

 

In fact, the suggestion of offering alms (twelve thousand drachmas of silver) as a way to pay down their "sin debt" or somehow assist the dearly departed out of purgatory is heretical at best

 

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23 NLT)

 

It does not say through Christ Jesus our Lord plus twelve thousand drachmas of silver

 

The observation of this commemoration gives those still alive a false sense of security and lessens the value of the completed work done on the Cross on their behalf

 

As if to say if they "don't quite get it right" by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior there is a "second chance"

 

That's a dangerous and un-Biblical precedent to establish and frankly I don't see any potential benefit to this practice

 

 

 

I'm not sure if I want to go point by on on this, but perhaps we'll investigate some of the more obvious problems with this statement of faith

 

Article 23 - Commemoration of the Dead

We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins Have been forgiven.

 

Not knowing the Sriritual status of the dead person, this is what I would pray

 

"O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel ... Remember not the iniquities of our fathers,mothers, brothers, sisters...

 

I see no problem with this. I added the red words.

[steadfast 0]

We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins Have been forgiven.

 

Remember not the iniquities of our fathers,mothers, brothers, sisters...

 

I see no problem with this. I added the red words.

This is a prosba of doubt, one who doubts that God will keep His word. If these deceased have truly repented, God will forgive and blott out from His memory their transgressions as He promised. There is nothing you can ASK or THANK on behalf of a deceased, they will be judged upon their asking and thanking prayers not yours, you can't be 100% sure what was in their hearts at the time of their passing, so you will never know for sure if they were thankful about anything. So then what is the purpose of a rememberance prayer.... It's for the comfort of the living relatives.

[LTTBT 0]

This is a prosba of doubt, one who doubts that God will keep His word.

 

How dare you say my prayer is one of doubt, it is of HOPE, the same type of hope my faith is....

[steadfast 0]

This is a prosba of doubt, one who doubts that God will keep His word.

 

How dare you say my prayer is one of doubt, it is of HOPE, the same type of hope my faith is....

LTTBT, These verses are for the believer, don`t you think God will do His part if you repent your sins? According to your prosba, you doubt verse #9.

 

LTTBT's petition to the Lord. "We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins Have been forgiven."

"Remember not the iniquities of our fathers,mothers, brothers, sisters"...

 

Ps 51:1 Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions.

 

2 Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin

.

3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me.

 

4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge.

 

5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.

 

7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

 

8 Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice.

 

9 Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity.

 

10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

 

11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

 

12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

 

13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. NIV

 

 

Were you taught doubt when you learned your prosba?

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Does anyone else find article 23 to be Biblically incorrect?

[stevepiv 0]

Does anyone else find article 23 to be Biblically incorrect?

 

No. But, you definitely are.

 

So, if you say these are Biblically incorrect when these Forefathers who wrote them were way before the Spirit & Life and Maxim, you are saying that the whole Molokan Religion from the beggining was wrong.

 

Then, why are you still on a site having discussions with Molokan's?

 

OH, I forgot this is your calling, when you were driving in your car that day this was your calling. NICE TRY. NO COOKIE FOR YOU.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Well my proud little "christian"

 

Anyone who would affirm a book where the author (mgr) demands to be worshiped as God has some core doctrinal issues of eternal proportions

 

You willingly embrace these Biblically incorrect writings and you still claim to be a "christian"

 

That doesn't add up

 

Did you read Article 23 of the 1803 Dogma?

 

It states that there is a way to "buy" your way out of sin after you die

 

"We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins will be forgiven"

 

How can you, "christian", support that?

 

Please provide Biblical basis for your support of this doctrine

 

 

 

 

Does anyone else find article 23 to be Biblically incorrect?

 

No. But, you definitely are.

 

So, if you say these are Biblically incorrect when these Forefathers who wrote them were way before the Spirit & Life and Maxim, you are saying that the whole Molokan Religion from the beggining was wrong.

 

Then, why are you still on a site having discussions with Molokan's?

 

OH, I forgot this is your calling, when you were driving in your car that day this was your calling. NICE TRY. NO COOKIE FOR YOU.

[stevepiv 0]

Well my proud little "christian"

 

Anyone who would affirm a book where the author (mgr) demands to be worshiped as God has some core doctrinal issues of eternal proportions

 

You willingly embrace these Biblically incorrect writings and you still claim to be a "christian"

 

That doesn't add up

 

Did you read Article 23 of the 1803 Dogma?

 

It states that there is a way to "buy" your way out of sin after you die

 

"We perform memorials for the dead and pray that their sins will be forgiven"

 

How can you, "christian", support that?

 

Please provide Biblical basis for your support of this doctrine

 

 

 

 

Does anyone else find article 23 to be Biblically incorrect?

 

No. But, you definitely are.

 

So, if you say these are Biblically incorrect when these Forefathers who wrote them were way before the Spirit & Life and Maxim, you are saying that the whole Molokan Religion from the beggining was wrong.

 

Then, why are you still on a site having discussions with Molokan's?

 

OH, I forgot this is your calling, when you were driving in your car that day this was your calling. NICE TRY. NO COOKIE FOR YOU.

 

23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

 

17 "O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

 

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"

 

20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

 

36 Ignoring what they said, Jesus told the synagogue ruler, "Don't be afraid; just believe."

 

 

There we have examples from my Saviour Jesus Christ instructing to pray in Jesus' name for anything and our joy will be complete. Have Faith and it will be done. Don't be afraid, just believe.

 

Have Faith in Jesus, Ask in Jesus' Name,Prayin Jesus' Name, Believe in Jesus.

 

So I'm not a Christian becuase I don't fit in any of your Group 1 statures.

 

I am thankful for that.

[fourvetta 0]

The observation of this commemoration gives those still alive a false sense of security and lessens the value of the completed work done on the Cross on their behalf

 

As if to say if they "don't quite get it right" by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior there is a "second chance"

 

Every time you gather, it is to commemorate the Lord's death until He comes. But it is not the power of His Resurrection.

 

Apostle Paul tells us;

 

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,

24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

 

His Death is proclaimed, not His Resurrection. The whole christan world proclaims only His death as the crucified Christ.

 

Still waiting ........................................................

 

for Christ to come down from the cross.

 

Not the Living Resurrected Christ personified as the believer.

 

Christ's first coming does not save. It is His Second Coming which saves. His first coming is for the cleansing of sin.

 

Paul tells us;

 

He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

You obviously have never read this passage in the Bible

 

"1 Early on Sunday morning, as the new day was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went out to see the tomb.

2 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, because an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and rolled aside the stone and sat on it.

3 His face shone like lightning, and his clothing was as white as snow.

4 The guards shook with fear when they saw him, and they fell into a dead faint.

5 Then the angel spoke to the women. "Don`t be afraid!" he said. "I know you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.

6 He isn`t here! He has been raised from the dead, just as he said would happen. Come, see where his body was lying.

7 And now, go quickly and tell his disciples he has been raised from the dead, and he is going ahead of you to Galilee. You will see him there. Remember, I have told you."" (Matthew 28:1-7 NLT)

 

He IS Risen

 

 

 

His Death is proclaimed, not His Resurrection. The whole christan world proclaims only His death as the crucified Christ.

 

Still waiting ........................................................

 

for Christ to come down from the cross.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Well my proud young "christian" where is Biblical support for the Catholic doctrine of prayer or offerings for the dead to "cover" their sin as indicated in dogma #23?

[fourvetta 0]

He IS Risen

 

Exactly!

 

The letter and the book kills, but it is the Spirit that gives life.

 

Christ proved it beyond the shadow of a doubt.

 

So one who lives according to the letter and the book is still dead.

 

Paul tells us; "For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

 

Also in Romans 13;

 

11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy.

14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

 

Let the so called christian so by his or her works that hey are indeed raised from the dead.

 

As the scripture says; "Show me your faith by your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

 

Not to be confused with the works of the law, but with the works of faith. Which comes from "Hearing" the Word of God and ACTUALLY applying it.

Edited February 1, 2007 by fourvetta

[steadfast 0]

He IS Risen

 

Exactly!

 

The letter and the book kills, but it is the Spirit that gives life.

 

Christ proved it beyond the shadow of a doubt.

 

So one who lives according to the letter and the book is still dead.

 

Paul tells us; "For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

 

Also in Romans 13;

 

11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy.

14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

 

Let the so called christian so by his or her works that hey are indeed raised from the dead.

 

As the scripture says; [b"Show me your faith by your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."[/b]

 

Not to be confused with the works of the law, but with the works of faith. Which comes from "Hearing" the Word of God and ACTUALLY applying it.

 

Your brain on MGR

 

On September 4, 2004 fourvetta stated: QUOTE The Lord Jesus Christ Himself comes with a new name, King of Spirits and God to the faithful. Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord. MGR Book 4 pov. 11: 12-24 (How Many Jumpers?, Post #6)

 

On September 11, 2004 fourvetta stated: QUOTE The new name of Jesus Christ is King of Spirits and God to the faithfull. (Fourvetta, Who Is Jesus Part II?, Post #5)

 

On January 22, 2006 fourvetta stated: QUOTE Maxim says,"I am the Gate of Zion and the entrance to the land of the living."

The Second Coming and the New Name of Jesus Christ is the King of Spirits and God to the faithfull. (What Is A Molokan?, Post #51)

 

On June 11, 2006 fourvetta stated: QUOTE So yes. The kingdom of God came to us in the 19th century......" (The Word of God, Post #3)

 

On August 15, 2006 fourvetta stated: QUOTE Today, the King of Spirits is the Gate and the entrance unto the path of the land of the living. The thousand year kingdom of Christ on earth. No one can come to Christ but through him. (Spiritual Marriage Discussion, Post #47)

 

On the same day, August 15, 2006, fourvetta stated: QUOTE Christ said, "I am the Door. No one comes to the Father but through Me."

The King of Spirits is the Gate of Zion which leads to the Door, which in turn leads to the Father...... (Spiritual Marriage Discussion, Post #50)

 

Quote Fourvetta, Spiritual Marriage Discussiom¦. #29 By faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to be saved."

 

Fourvetta says; Fourvetta`s Fable #73 God is devious to those who are devious.

 

Fourvetta says; Fourvetta`s Fable #73 Another instance of fornication sanctified by God.

 

Fourvetta says; #4 Interesting Artifact, And if one says that the Bible is complete, have they not read in the scriptures?

 

Fourvetta says; "Show me your faith by your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." Which comes from "Hearing" the Word of God and ACTUALLY applying it.

 

Fourvetta says; Fourvetta`s Fable # 60, Ignorance of the Word of God is NOT an excuse.

 

Fourvetta says; Fourvetta`s Fable #25 The letter kills, but it is the Spirit which gives life.

[stevepiv 0]

Well my proud young "christian" where is Biblical support for the Catholic doctrine of prayer or offerings for the dead to "cover" their sin as indicated in dogma #23?

 

I replied with the verse as Christ said ask my Father in my name and he will give it to you.

 

The "covering of sins" as you call it is not the case. The prayer is a asking prayer for God to be merciful to our deceased. Prayer and Fasting brings comfort to a family that has just lost a loved one or a friend. The Prayer and Fasting is to ask God that he be merciful and forgive them.

[LTTBT 0]

I replied with the verse as Christ said ask my Father in my name and he will give it to you.

 

Beeeeee careful what you ask for, it may be according to your wishes and not Gods will.

I knew people who were praying for a sick Grandmother to live, keeping her in pain and suffering.

When she heard about this she told them to stop and let her have peace. Soon after she went to be with our Lord.

 

The prayer is a asking prayer for God to be merciful to our deceased. Prayer and Fasting brings comfort to a family that has just lost a loved one or a friend. The Prayer and Fasting is to ask God that he be merciful and forgive them.

 

For the living I can see this, but for the dead, it's too late. They have been judged at their last breath.

You don't believe that our God is merciful, because you have to ask. Have faith that He is.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Amen LTTBT !

[steadfast 0]

I replied with the verse as Christ said ask my Father in my name and he will give it to you.

 

Beeeeee careful what you ask for, it may be according to your wishes and not Gods will.

I knew people who were praying for a sick Grandmother to live, keeping her in pain and suffering.

When she heard about this she told them to stop and let her have peace. Soon after she went to be with our Lord.

 

The prayer is a asking prayer for God to be merciful to our deceased. Prayer and Fasting brings comfort to a family that has just lost a loved one or a friend. The Prayer and Fasting is to ask God that he be merciful and forgive them.

 

For the living I can see this, but for the dead, it's too late. They have been judged at their last breath.

You don't believe that our God is merciful, because you have to ask. Have faith that He is.

LTTBT you are 1000% right. God has made a covenant with his believers, they will receive all the mercy that is due them according to His will. For anyone to ask for extra is the sign of an unbeliever, their are examples in the Bible of individuals asking God for mercy but it was not taught by Christ or it would contradict this verse in Romans ; Rom 9:15-17 "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. NIV Steve's prosba asking ANYTHING on behalf of a deceased is unscriptural......

 

Another example of our elders being scripturally malnourished and passing it to the next generation.

[lastinline 0]

stevepiv quote

 

"I replied with the verse as Christ said ask my Father in my name and he will give it to you."

 

stevepiv,

 

I have witnessed multiple hundreds of prosbas at services at Molokan churches for all my years and ONLY heard a prosba asked in the way you are stating should be done "In the Name of Jesus" only possibly five times. Don't you think that is odd? Have you ever heard a prosba asked in accordance with the way Jesus instructed us to in the scripture you are using? Have YOU? Now be HONEST. GOD is listening. Try it but be careful, if 4vetta hears you, he will accuse you of becoming like those dreaded people that go to that church on Lefingwell and First.

 

I just went through the Molokan procedures book by Bill William Babishoff (admittedly very quickly) and found no prosbas with the BLESSED PHRASE "IN JESUS NAME." Check it out can you find ANY? Please Advise.

 

Thanks,

 

lastinline

[steadfast 0]

I just went through the Molokan procedures book by Bill William Babishoff (admittedly very quickly) and found no prosbas with the BLESSED PHRASE "IN JESUS NAME." Check it out can you find ANY? Please Advise.

Maybe Bill William Babishoff doesn't know of these verses or he's not Christian.

 

Eph 5:20

20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NIV

 

Col 3:17

17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

NIV

 

Heb 13:15-16

15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise-the fruit of lips that confess his name.

NIV

[seeking_truth_1 0]

(bringing it to the top)

[seeking_truth_1 0]

TTT (To The Top)