coffee

. Kevin, I hope you can please relax about this. I am not attempting to put you on the hot seat. It is only dialogue. In my experience, those who have left the comfort of their previous involvement in the present day "Molokan" religious system, who are now experiencing the freedom in the Lord to practice their faith as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, without the spiritual repression that is imposed upon them by the political restrictions of the dominant Rudometkinite political elders and church leaders within our current "Molokan" religious system, remind me of those we know who, after having endured years of knee pain, and have gone ahead and had knee replacement surgery. The comment that we hear from each group is always the same: "I wish I had done this years earlier." I wish you well in your walk with the Lord. .

. Thank you Steve, we cherish your prayers. Years ago, my older brother and I were having a conversation about ministering to the Rudometkinites, and he basically told me that my efforts to educate the Rudometkinites specifically about the historical truth regarding the Khlysty influence upon Rudometkin and the "New Israel" sect within our "Molokan" people, which is evident in the heresies of the Spirit and Life book, were for all practical purposes not going to bear any fruit, and he quoted the Scripture from Luke 16:19-31, which concludes with the words that if the deceived and the lost are not going to listen to historical truth, or the very truth of the Holy Scriptures, neither will they be convinced even if someone were to rise up from the dead to give them the very same message of truth. It was at that time that I changed my approach in "ministry" to focus my attention instead on those who were not already numbered with the stiff-necked Rudometkinites, with specific effort towards those who still would consider the Bible to be the ultimate benchmark with regard to God's revelation of truth to mankind. My brother's comment opened my eyes to the fact that when planting seed from the Lord, or watering the seed which has already been planted, one needs to be wise and strategic, so as not to spend time being unproductive. As you and your wife have discovered, there is a world of opportunity outside the boundaries of that which is "Molokan", to minister to the deceived, to the unsaved and the lost, to share the love of Jesus Christ with others. When my wife and I became part of our new church family, we experienced on a very personal level what it means to be set free in Christ, from the repression of the political restrictions that are part of the leadership within our current "Molokan" religious system. And it is obvious that you also have experienced this same freedom from the Lord. God bless you. .

. Dear Kevin, First of all, let me preface this with the same pattern which the Apostle Paul uses in the Bible, at the beginning of the third chapter of Philippians. When I say that it is more "comfortable" to keep silent while choosing to remain in the "Molokan" religious system, it is based on my own personal experience. Please do not assume that I do not know what I am talking about. When I first became vocal about sharing with others about the evil spirit and the evil heresies of Rudometkin's writings in the Spirit and Life book, it would have been more comfortable for my wife had I remained silent, since it certainly was not enjoyable for her having Rudometkinite mothers, who used to be friendly towards her, now separate their children and remove them from playing together with our own children. That made my wife feel shunned and unwelcome, which is not only uncomfortable, but very awkward. It would have been more comfortable for my wife had I simply remained silent, instead of having Rudometkinite women who used to speak with my wife and approach her to ask what was being said in Russian, now moving away from her to another row. Trust me, it certainly would have been more comfortable for me had I stayed active in the "Molokan" church and remained silent, since I would not have had to experience others who previously used to speak with me and visit with me, who now, during the time when the hosts of a large church doing invites the out of town guests to come out and be greeted by the local residents, in the ritual known as "vee-dah-tsah", these same individuals now turned their faces away from me and waved me on, not wanting to even kiss me hello. And then, there was the time during one of the week long church holidays, towards the end of the week, when there was only a handful of singers, and one of the women started a Rudometkinite song, giving honor and exalting the name of Rudometkin as their beloved "king of spirits", and my conscience would not allow me to help them sing the song, so I stood there in awkward silence, having the others glare at me, leaving the other 3 or 4 singers to try and sing the song, as I refused to help them sing. Have you ever experienced the awkwardness of having someone getting up from "kroogh" after being prayed for, during the time when the individuals go around and kiss the church, in the ritual known as "lahb-zah-nyee-yah", who walks out of their way in an obvious display of rejection, to avoid kissing you? Let me tell you, it certainly would have been more comfortable for me had I simply remained a part of the status quo "Molokan" religious system and kept quiet about all that God had revealed with regard to the evil spirit which Rudometkin introduced to our "Molokan" people from his own Khlysty forefathers in Russia. Have you ever experienced the awkward and angry glares from others in church for refusing to announce to the singers the words of a Psalm that was being sung from the Spirit and Life book, because your conscience would not allow you to do so? How about receiving a phone call in the middle of the night from close relatives who were calling to inform my wife and me that if it was true what they had heard about us removing the Spirit and Life book from being displayed on our dining room table, then we were no longer welcome in their home, and they were no longer going to come over to visit us, or consider us as "family". And then, there was the telephone call from my father in California, who called to tell me that he had just received an irate call from one of the Rudometkinites who had demanded that he influence me to stop writing articles about Rudometkin's Khlysty heritage, about how the writings in the Spirit and Life book contradict what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures, and to cease the distribution of the information that my wife and I had been passing out. The point being that in my experience, it is easier to remain part of the "brotherhood", and keep silent, than it is to leave the comfort of the "Molokan" religious system, primarily because when one chooses to stay, one can choose when it is more convenient to be "Molokan", and when it is more convenient for them to be "Christian". Perhaps the better question would be, could you explain what is so difficult about remaining a part of the "Molokan" religious system and continuing to attend? What is so uncomfortable about that? Perhaps I don't understand what you are attempting to say, but what is so difficult and uncomfortable about sitting down with someone and walking with them for an extended amount of time, which you state involves rolling up your sleeves and getting dirty? If you are not actively "ministering" and being obvious about announcing the alarm regarding the heresies in the Spirit and Life book, what is it that you think you are being obedient to in "doing God's will"? And please do not feel like you are being attacked. I have been doing this for almost 30 years now and I do not know anyone who has left the comfort of the ethnicity of our "Molokan" religious system who will agree with your position that it is more "comfortable" for one to leave our socio-religious community, than it is to stay and remain silent. .

. From the daily devotional that I receive from Alistair Begg: October 14 A Salvation to be Dreaded Romans 12:2 If there is any possibility of a Christian being saved while he conforms to this world, it can only be so as through fire. Such a bare salvation is almost to be dreaded as much as to be desired. Reader, would you like to leave this world in the darkness of a desponding deathbed and enter heaven like a shipwrecked sailor climbs the rocks of his native country? Then allow the world to squeeze you into its mold and refuse identity with Christ or to bear His reproach. Would you like to have a heaven below as well as a heaven above? Do you want to comprehend with all saints what are the heights and depths and to know the love of Christ that passes knowledge? Would you like to receive an abundant entry into heaven? Then do not live as a friend of the world. If you would attain the full assurance of faith, you cannot do so in communion with sinners. If you desire to be on fire for God, realize that your love will be dampened by the cold rain of a godless society. You cannot become a great Christian, you can never be a mature believer in Christ Jesus while you give in to godless maxims and modes of life. It is incongruous for an heir of heaven to be a great friend with the heirs of hell. It has a bad look when the servant is too intimate with the king's enemies. Even small inconsistencies are dangerous. Just as small thorns make great blisters and little moths destroy fine clothes, so little frivolities and little indiscretions will rob your testimony of a thousand joys. Professing Christian on the fence, you do not know what you are losing by your conformity to the world. It cuts the tendons of your strength and makes you crawl when you ought to run. So for your own comfort's sake and for the sake of your growth in grace, if you are a Christian, be a Christian, and be a marked and distinct one. .

. I think this position would hold some amount of credibility if there were preaching being done for others to hear. I have walked outside of "Molokan" church after services on a number of occasions and handed out tracks to demonstrate the evil spirit that is present in the heresy of the Spirit and Life book. Believe me, even the most devout of Rudometkinites will not harm you. After all, they preach non violence. Not once was I ever threatened to the point that I feared for my physical body. Nobody ever threatened to shoot me, or to do harm to my family. Oh, they might get vocal, and raise their voices at you, but the Rudometkinites are not to be feared. They hold the political control of the churches, but they do not control what goes on in the individual homes of the members of the congregations. The point being is that if one truly believes what one says, then one needs to announce the alarm. If one were to begin a Bible class with the purpose of exposing exactly why the Spirit and Life book is an evil presence within our "Molokan" churches, I think there would be respect for one's decision to stay. If one were to gain a reputation for passing out tracks, in "ministry", this would speak volumes about one's commitment that they truly wish to reach the lost, and are not just giving lip service, or hanging around doing that which is comfortable, because it is too uncomfortable for them to leave. To hold onto the hope that things are going to change somehow supernaturally, without individuals rolling up their sleeves to work in the fields of the Lord, without putting forth any effort that probably involves pain of some kind, especially the emotional kind, is wishful thinking. .

. In order to be totally honest, I think we need to first admit that there is a certain "comfort zone" when it comes to taking part in our traditional "Molokan" social and religious activities. There is a certain comfort in the "familiarity" of dressing up in the same, common, traditional outfits, and sharing in common that which we have all been born and raised to esteem and value highly as part of our ethnic heritage, which we experience during the religious church doings, like weddings, child dedications, funerals, etc., and social events like wedding showers, picnics and barbecue outings. Because this familiarity and comfort zone is a definite "given", it is naive for us to dismiss the fact that there is a definite tendency to cling to this comfort zone, even though one might disagree with and oppose the decisions that are made by the dominant Rudometkinite political elders who control what decisions are made with regard to what is and what is not allowed to go on in the "Molokan" community. It is naive to pretend that whenever a Bible based Jesus follower makes known the truth that the "spirit" behind the so-called "revelations" in the writings of the Spirit and Life book is EVIL in the sight of God, that the dominant Rudometkinite elders and church leaders are not going to censor that person and make sure his voice is no longer heard. Let us not be naive that where there is censorship, any potential opportunity for future "ministry" has for all practical purposes been eliminated, and to hold out hope that the opportunity will eventually be given one day to remove such censorship, with the expectation that established churches are supposedly "headed in a Biblical direction", is not only naive, but borders on ignorance, no disrespect intended. For "ministry" to happen, voices need to be heard speaking the truth. I need to emphasize speaking the truth IN LOVE!, for God loves the sinner, in spite of one's sin, and desires for the soul of the deceived to be saved. True ministry towards the lost and the unsaved cannot be accomplished when the spirit of pride and hatred toward the deceived dominates and interferes with the efforts of the Holy Spirit to minister. If voices speaking the truth are not heard, there is no "ministry", only wishful thinking. So faith comes from HEARING, and hearing through the Word of Christ. (Romans 10:17) When censorship exists, there is no "hearing" of the message of truth, therefore, no platform for "ministry". In my experience, as it was initially for my wife and me almost 30 years ago, there exists a fine line of wishful thinking which clouds the reality of the political certainties in existence, and it is common to want to make excuses for not wanting to leave the "New Israel" dominated church activities, even tolerating, for the sake of "peace", the heresies of Rudometkin and Klubnikin in the Spirit and Life book. After all, are we not maintaining peace, which is Biblical, as well as unity among family and the preservation of the rich heritage into which we were born? Is it not a good thing that God has brought us into the world as part of our ethnic "Molokan" heritage? Why then would He want us to leave it just to follow Him? Can we not follow Him and still be part of our socio-religious ethnic "Molokan" community, in spite of the Khlystical false doctrines and strange teachings of the Spirit and Life book? Is it not written in the Bible this way?: Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. So brothers, in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God. (1 Corinthians 7:17-24) These are hard questions, but it is more than obvious that in order to follow the Lord Jesus Christ and practice the Scriptural absolutes regarding faith in Him, which are established and clearly outlined in the Bible, one cannot remain stagnant in the "Molokan" church system. There must be activity of some kind, which requires gathering together with others to stimulate one another unto love and good deeds through the knowledge and understanding of the gospel message of the Biblical Jesus Christ. There is no getting around it....the message to sound the alarm regarding the heresy of the Spirit and Life book MUST BE HEARD. In order for it to be heard, it must be spoken! The same applies to the Biblical truth that Jesus is our Creator God Who has come to earth in human being form, to die for the sins of mankind. Those who are believing in "another Jesus", as a created being, are standing on sand and are not firmly established on the Rock of our salvation, as recorded in the Holy Scriptures. The encouragement is to speak out and not be silent, to be proactive in seeking fellowship with other fellow Bible based Jesus followers, to not take pleasure in one's own comfort zone, and not be stagnant, but be active in ministry, serving in the fields of the Lord. This cannot be done while remaining silent and clinging to that which is comfortable. .

. This has turned out to be a little lengthier than I had initially intended, but I feel compelled to share this with everyone here on the forum, especially to the silent readers. My business partner and coworker, Marsha, is a fellow Jesus follower. The foundation of the business relationship that we share is our common faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We approach the work at our company with the mindset that God is our CEO, that it is His company, that we are His employees, and that the primary purpose for our existence is to represent Him to those whom we interact with on a daily basis, those who have been saved, as well as those who are yet unsaved (and perhaps never will be). One of our regular business practices takes place on Friday mornings, when we have our weekly review meeting over breakfast. After eating and discussing a variety of company concerns, we set aside time for prayer. We pray not only for our company's prosperity, that the Lord provide us with the means to take care of our personal financial needs, but especially that He continues to open doors for us to represent Him to others, even in a business environment. Although Marsha knows about our "Molokan" ethnic heritage, and the ministry which the Lord gave my wife and me almost 30 years ago, she is not familiar with this forum, nor has she ever read any of my earlier articles on the subject of the extra-Biblical heresies in the Spirit and Life book. Before I continue, in case the news about my personal health has not reached others, I would like to share with the readers that after treatment and surgery, recent tests have revealed that the cancer which I had in my esophagus and stomach last year has reappeared in the lining of my lungs. The diagnosis is Stage IV cancer, and the prognosis from the medical community is very poor. Since this most recent news, my wife and I have been busy with medical appointments and preparations for the next course of action, which involves upcoming new chemo therapy treatments. We are thankful to God that ever since this recent diagnosis, Ludmilla has been able to take off work to go with me to all of my medical procedures, and she went with me to our business meeting last Friday (October 1st). After our breakfast and company business was concluded, it was time for prayer. Marsha told us that God had awakened her at 2:00 A.M. the previous evening/morning and kept her awake for around three hours. The Lord had given her a specific message which she was to share with me. She did not understand the meaning of the message or the context of its application, but was faithful to share it with us, also warning us that there is very real spiritual warfare going on. The message from God is that I am being bound by the sin of pride. I want to be very clear, so that there is no ambiguity about what this message means, and the context to which it applies, all of which was revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. To be perfectly transparent, it is no secret that I have always found offensive the arrogance of those who are referred to as Rudometkinites, those who believe and follow the teachings of M. G. Rudometkin in the Spirit and Life book as if those writings are inspired by the God of the Bible. In my personal experience, with the exception of only one man who has been a lifelong proponent of Rudometkin's writings, I have found the Rudometkinites to be typically haughty, behaving as though they are spiritually superior, with an elitist attitude that is nauseating to me, to say the least. However, as God so clearly brought to my attention, this ministry that He has given me is not "my" ministry, but that it is His ministry, and therefore, there is no room in it for personal retaliation or word battles, for the sake of taking personal pride in winning some kind of competition, or debate. The Bible is clear: God loves mankind, and it is His will that none should perish. If we say that we love God, then we must love our fellow man, and we must sincerely want the same thing for each one: that none should perish. Because of my personal aversion to the haughty attitude of the stereotypical Rudometkinite, I have, over time, allowed my flesh, which is my carnal nature, to react and retaliate with personal pride against these individuals. When the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin, I confessed it and asked God to forgive me. As we come before the Lord in prayer, my wife and I pray that God infuse my heart with divine compassion and love for those who are spiritually lost, whether they are people with whom I do business, or those within our "Molokan" community who have believed Satan's deception through Rudometkin's writings, and the false doctrines and strange teachings that are found permeated throughout the Spirit and Life book. God's ministry to our "Molokan" people is the same as it is for all of mankind, that none should perish, and as it concerns the salvation of those within our "Molokan" socio-religious community who are caught up in the heresy of the Spirit and Life book, they MUST FIRST COME AWAY from serving the false spirit which has inspired those writings. As has been demonstrated over and over again, by exposing the seemingly endless contradictions to what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures, the writings in the Spirit and Life book are indeed inspired by Satan. The battle that exists within our "Molokan" community is NOT a personal one, nor should it be. It is a spiritual battle, the same one that has raged from the beginning of time: Satan attempting to supplant God. God's revelation of my sin is indeed a humbling experience, but He has shown me "up close and personal" that my life is in His hands, and especially now, in light of my recent diagnosis, I am in no position to be holding on to pride, for it too retains the foul stench of my fleshly carnal nature! If one is to be a faithful servant who has been called to labor in the fields of the Lord, in God's ministry, there is no room for anyone to take personal pleasure in being able to expose the deception of the Rudometkinites, or to revel in the demonstration that their religious belief system is contrary to the Truth of the Holy Scriptures. For my wife and me, as long as God gives me life, our prayer is going to be that I may continue serving the Lord in His ministry with humble obedience to His will, with a renewed heart of love and compassion for those whom God loves, believer and non-believer alike, extending the same grace and mercy that He extends to us. .

. God Bless you! When my wife and I were members of The First Re-Formed Christian Molokan Church, at our gatherings where possible non-Christians were present, our minister would often conclude his sermons with the exhortation and invitation that once someone makes the decision to accept Jesus, to believe in Him according to all of the claims about Christ that are written in the Bible, once you become a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, you will never be sorry. In our "Molokan" community, making this kind of decision to leave behind the existing false religious practices that one has been born and raised to be a part of, to become a follower of Jesus, can sometimes be difficult due to the very real emotional ties that exist between immediate and extended family members and longtime friends. Having said this, my wife and I have found that God is faithful and true to His written Word in the Scriptures, and we have found the following passage applicable, without fail, to our own situation and personal family circumstances. The same decision that you have made today, we made our decision almost 30 years ago, and the Lord has blessed us with a new church family, and He has blessed our children to grow up and find mates who are fellow Jesus followers, and our grandchildren are being raised in a spiritual environment where one does not have to "navigate" the attempt by the political elders and church leaders to "blend" Rudometkin's heresies in the extra-Biblical Spirit and Life book, with the truth of the Holy Scriptures. For the sake of your children, and their souls, as well as those of you and your wife, be encouraged to take seriously your role as the spiritual head of your household, and to share your testimony with others. God bless you! .

. Regarding: For now, it is probably best to humor this individual who obviously has strong opinions about a number of things, apparently including the amateur assumptions of a self made psychologist. Regarding: At times it is difficult if not impossible to keep the Rudometkinites focused on the issue being discussed, without having them vary off course and change the subject. Hopefully this will now get us back on track. As it concerns the issue of the heresies that are written in the Spirit and Life book, the Rudometkinites are notorious for making the assumption that those "Molokans" who are addressing the issue of Rudometkin's Khlysty heritage so candidly, in public, are doing so purportedly out of "vindictiveness". I do not know which excuse is sillier, this one, or the excuse that the historians wrote what they did about Rudometkin with the purpose of influencing the illiterate and uneducated peasants to convert back to Orthodoxy. In truth, those individuals who are speaking so openly about the similarities between Rudometkin's false doctrines and strange teachings, and the religious teachings and practices that are recorded about the belief system of the historical Khlysty, love our ethnic heritage and are disturbed that historical information exists which confirms so much of what was written by Rudometkin in the Spirit and Life book, and verifies that what Rudometkin and his followers practiced in Russia resembled more the religious activities of the Khlysty, than that which is documented historically about our Bible based "Molokan" Christian forefathers. The issue that is being presented is NOT the fact that those Rudometkinite writers who have published books with their own versions of so-called "history" have done so with premeditated "conclusion" ahead of time, or are guilty of "sloppy research", or lack documented "first hand account observations", or fail to produce any "transcripts" of purported interviews which they have supposedly conducted, or are biased in their presentation of alleged "facts" as it concerns the person of Rudometkin, and the myth that he and his followers were "Molokans", instead of Khlysty. The issue is the hypocrisy of the Rudometkinites to demand authentication for those historical references which they do not like about their beloved hero, but do not require the same authentication from their own choice of writers, whether they be of "Molokan" heritage or not. After all, this most recent explosion of dialog here on the forum was sparked by the dislike of the Rudometkinites to read that their spiritual hero received his mystical belief system from his Khlysty forefathers. In other words, the Rudometkinites want to consider themselves to be part of the "Molokan" community, and they object with obvious anger to any historical documentation that associates Rudometkin and his followers in any way with the Khlysty. They clamor and make lots of noise, wiggling and squiggling with all their might in their attempt to discredit this kind of historical information. Regarding: I do not know if anyone else has ever noticed, but there never is any objection raised from the Rudometkinites whenever someone can find excerpts from any of the historians which are complimentary, or imply that Rudometkin and his followers were somehow part of the demographic of the historical "Molokans". One does not hear any demands for first hand account observations and interview transcripts in those instances. Other than the fact that the Rudometkinites do not like that their hero has been linked historically to the Khlysty, is there evidence of any kind to even suggest that Mel'nikov was not a recognized historian of the Russian people? Mel'nikov is referred to as valid historical source by other Russian historians, namely Dingel'shtedt and Klibanov, as well as writers whose names might not be as familiar to our present generation of "Molokans". Does this individual who has been making all of the recent noise here on the forum, boasting about qualifications and credentials, implying some kind of self proclaimed authority on the methods of gathering historical information, have any evidence to prove that Mel'nikov would possibly have had any ulterior motives, other than to accurately document historical truth, when he wrote what he did about Rudometkin and Rudometkin's Khlysty heritage? After all, we have the testimony of Dingel'shtedt that Mel'nikov was a proponent of gathering his research face to face. Do the Rudometkinites or this vocal, recent participant here on the forum have any documentation from any of the other historians who wrote about Rudometkin, that Mel'nikov was not to be trusted for the things that he wrote, or that he was unreliable, or incompetent, or unqualified to record the historical information that he did about the Khlysty and the Molokans, as part of the history of religious sectarianism in Russia? In the preface of the book that he wrote about Rudometkin and his "New Israel Jumpers and Leapers" followers, Dingel'htedt himself documents that he traveled personally to the Russian village of Nikitino to interview the villagers there, in order to gather the first hand information that he did about Rudometkin and his religious teachings and practices. Soon, in the very near future, I hope to post excerpts from Dingel'shtedt’s book, translated from Russian into English, which document that Rudometkin's religious activities were exactly like those of the Khlysty, and were not indicative at all of any association with the historical "Molokans". In the meantime, for those who can read and comprehend the Russian language, the chapter that Dingel'shtedt devotes to information about the man, Rudometkin himself, was posted by Anakainosis in the History thread under the Faith section. About Mel'nikov, Nicolai Dingel'shtedt, in his book entitled The Transcaucasian Sectarians, wrote the following, translated from Russian: In case anyone missed it, Dingel'shtedt refers to Mel'nikov as the renowned expert of the Russian Schism. Obviously, contrary to what this new participant on the forum has attempted to imply, Mel'nikov was and is highly respected and regarded as an authority on the historical information which he recorded. Also, notice that Mel'nikov himself states that the research about the sectarians must be done face to face. Regarding: To repeat myself, there is no factual connection between the historical Khlysty and the historical "Molokans", nor has there ever been. This is not even an issue to discuss. The historical "connection" which we are addressing is the fact that (1) Rudometkin's religious heritage comes from the Khlysty, and (2) that Rudometkin was influential in blending the religious practices of the Khlysty with bits and pieces that he borrowed from the historical "Molokans" to become the leader of a new sect, his followers whom he refers to specifically as "New Israel", which is a term that is historically Khlystical, NOT "Molokan". The assumption that there is little factual information on Khlysty and Molokans is not true. That statement is an opinion, based on biased, wishful thinking. There is more than ample historical information available to understand the difference between Rudometkin and his Khlystical belief system, versus that of our historical "Molokan" forefathers. And now, we have self proclaimed "authorities" and authentic "researchers" putting words into the mouths of the historians and speaking on behalf of Dr. Breyfogle about why he chose to publish his studies on the Dukhobors. Again, this is more personal opinion which is based on prejudicial assumption. To conclude, I have never met anyone yet who denies that it would be good if we could obtain the "interview transcripts" of Mel'nikov, together with his travel itinerary showing where he traveled to in order to obtain the historical information that he did about Rudometkin and his Khlysty forefathers. I think this would be excellent. At the same time, if there were any evidence available to document and prove that the man simply "made it up", as pure fiction, this too would be excellent. However, all the Rudometkinites can do is to yammer and make a lot of noise while they voice their objection to the fact that historical information is available to read about their hero and spiritual leader, documentation which they do not want to hear, all done without any substantiation other than voicing their opinions loudly, and demanding the kind of authentication which they themselves refuse to provide in the writings of the Spirit and Life book. The Rudometkinites want those who attend their church gatherings to just "accept" the assumption that what is written in the Spirit and Life book truly was recorded word for word, in chronological order, exactly in context of what can be proven exists in original handwritten documentation, which is available for anyone to view and verify. When the request is made to grant the opportunity to authenticate that which people are being asked to believe, the Rudometkinites ignore any such requests and proceed with business as usual, continuing to perpetuate the myth and the fable that Rudometkinites are "really" a demographic of the historical "Molokans" and are not a remnant of the historical Khlysty at all, despite what any respected and recognized Russian historians might have written to the contrary. The issue here in this discussion is the hypocrisy of the Rudometkinites. When D a n n y S h u b i n writes in his English translations of the Spirit and Life book, that certain excerpts were omitted from I. G Samarin's original publication in the Russian language, but that D a n n y has restored them to their original place, how do we know that he is telling the truth, if we are not given the opportunity to compare with the original writings? When the Rudometkinite elders and church leaders tell us that when Rudometkin writes about multiple wives, that he is using symbolism in reference to "churches", why won't the Rudometkinites present their documentation as evidence to prove their claims? After all, Rudometkin's writings are barely 150 years old. Surely it could not be that difficult for this new participant on the forum to scan and post the evidence? All we continue to see from the Rudometkinites is lot of noise from a self proclaimed "authority" and self appointed "researcher" who cannot even produce the very authentication for that which the Rudometkinites expect others to accept and believe, a bunch of fables and myths which contradict the documented evidence that exists in the available historical record. What a sorry excuse for someone who has supposedly "done my research". Talk about pitiful. .

. First of all, for the umpteenth time already, it has always been my desire that the Rudometkinites would come out of the closet to share their belief system publicly, and demonstrate for the readers the mindset of this particular demographic of our "Molokan" community here in America. It has NEVER been my intention to "dismiss" them, or to "ignore" them, and the reason is very simple. Even if I wanted to, there is no way that I could ever recreate, or do justice to the intensity and zeal, the arrogant attitude of superiority, the angry, smart aleck mouth, and all of the other distinguishing characteristics that are part and parcel of the religious personality of the stereotypical Rudometkinite. I believe it is important for the readers to witness this very "attitude" of the Rudometkinites first hand. Regarding: As we can see from the above comments, when the Rudometkinites are confronted with historical information which they do not like, they demand of the historians first hand account observations and transcripts of interviews, as if to prove that the historical account which they object to is somehow unreliable or from non credible sources. As I mentioned in the previous post, the Rudometkinites consider as supposedly "iron clad" the version of so-called "history" that is presented in the book that was written by J. K. Berokoff, entitled Molokans in America. It is only too obvious that the Rudometkinites have no objection to Berokoff's sloppy job in research, nor do they demand if any first hand account observations actually exist, nor do they produce for scrutiny any of the actual transcripts of interviews that Berokoff might have conducted, in order to write the conclusions that he had already made ahead of time, before even writing his book. The same goes for W. W. Prohoroff and his book, as well as A. F. Wren and his book. The Rudometkinites conveniently avoid any demand to evaluate the so-called "historical" claims made by any of these men, in order to verify if they are indeed correct. For that matter, the Spirit and Life book, written by I. G. Samarin, is revered by the Rudometkinites as a collection of sacred writings, specifically those of M. G. Rudometkin. In the beginning of this book, Samarin presents his version of what the Rudometkinites accept as purported "history". In fact, Samarin writes in context that he compiled the information, he edited it, and he supplied additional commentary to this beginning section, but one never hears from the Rudometkinites any demand for verification of "first hand account observations and transcripts of interviews". Yet, the Rudometkinites place this very Spirit and Life book on the altars in their churches and have it displayed prominently in their homes as a testimony of their belief system, without ever evaluating whether or not Samarin's claims in the book are even accurate to begin with. For the time being, let us put aside the inability of the Rudometkinites to produce from Samarin verification of any alleged first hand account observations or transcripts of interviews, for any of the so-called "historical" information that is published the Spirit and Life book. How about having the Rudometkinites produce the very original handwritten manuscripts themselves, for others to investigate and compare, so that an accurate analysis can be made, in order to determine whether or not the context of what Samarin published, and what has been introduced into the churches to be part of the very worship of God, is indeed what Rudometkin truly intended. Or, for that matter, why do the Rudometkinites not present these "originals" to prove that they even exist, in chronological order, exactly as they claim is written in the Spirit and Life book? Why do we not hear from the Rudometkinites the same kind of demand for authentication of what is written in the Spirit and Life book, which they demand from those non-Molokan writers who have published historical information about Rudometkin and his Khlysty forefathers, such information which the Rudometkinites dislike and desire not to be made public? Especially when it comes to defending the honor and reputation of their spiritual hero, this type of hypocrisy is standard operating procedure among the Rudometkinites. Regarding: I have explained previously that when I first read the term "Rudometkinite", it was from one of the historical writers who had referred to the followers of Rudometkin in Russia as "Rudometkinites", instead of the term that is more commonly used among today's "Molokans", which is the term "Makcimisti". In context, I use the term "Rudometkinite" in reference to those individuals who accept and follow the writings of Rudometkin in the Spirit and Life book as being "holy scripture". It simply means "follower of Rudometkin", just like the term "Makcimist" means "follower of Makcim". I prefer to use the man's last name, as opposed to his first name. As Rudometkin himself explains in his own writings, he does NOT refer to his followers as "Molokans". That honor he concedes to S. M. Uklein, as the one who first organized into a religious sect those peasants in Russia who came to be known as "Molokans". Rudometkin clearly identifies his followers as "New Israel", which like the term "People of God" or "God's People", is used by historians to identify the Khlysty. In other words, Rudometkinites are NOT Molokans. The fact that today's Rudometkinites do not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ or in the foundational Biblical truth that God exists in Trinity, as has already been demonstrated, is clear evidence that they have no business referring to themselves as "Molokan". I must say that I cannot remember when someone with such impressive credentials and qualifications to be an authentic "researcher" has ever joined in on the discussions here on this forum, but I truly hope this individual will stay and stick around to dialogue and share their views, exactly as they have done within the past couple of days. I believe it is good for anyone who uses the nickname of "Molokan" to experience first hand how serious and severe the polarization is between those who are the stereotypical Rudometkinites, who are followers of the writings in the Spirit and Life book, versus those who are the Bible based followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. .

. Regarding: In the personal library of any good Rudometkinite can be found the book written by J. K. Berokoff entitled Molokans in America. The author does not hide the fact, nor does he apologize that he is biased, and that he wrote the book with his mind already made up with conclusion, a good majority of which was admittedly based on the fact that he was not a first hand observer, but that he was relying instead on secondary sources. Included in the book are a number of the unsubstantiated myths and fables, as well as over-embellished folklore and oral traditions, which conveniently fit the conclusion that the author had already made before he even began writing the book, while at the same time ignoring any historical evidence to the contrary. To conclude that Berokoff's version of so-called "history" is to be considered "iron clad", is nonsense. The same applies to the book written by William Prohoroff III, entitled Maxcim Gavrilovich Rudometkin, "King Of Spirits", as well as the book written by Alex F. Wren, entitled True Believers, Prisoners For Conscience, both which should also be found in the library of any good Rudometkinite. Like Berokoff, both Prohoroff and Wren are admittedly biased, loyal and faithful followers of Rudometkin and his writings in the Spirit and Life book, who wrote their books with conclusion already made ahead of time, with intentional disregard of any "contradicting evidence". The Rudometkinites are notorious for whimpering and sniveling about the credibility of those historical sources which reveal the ugly truth about Rudometkin's Khlysty heritage, and attempt to discredit the reliability of these historians with excuses like those posted above, yet they conveniently overlook the fact that their author of choice in this case, who has written a version of alleged "history" that the Rudometkinites choose to believe, is guilty of the same accusations which the Rudometkinites make against Mel'nikov and Ding'lshtedt, as well as others who wrote about Rudometkin and his involvement and participation with the mystical Khlysty, all of which is well documented in a number of sources that write about the history of religious sectarianism in Russia. Ultimately, the criteria of the Rudometkinites is this: Probably the silliest of all excuses made by the Rudometkinites is the following: This presupposes that the sectarians were going to actually read what the historians had written. In other words, the Rudometkinites want others to believe that these peasant sectarians, the majority of whom were uneducated and illiterate, were purportedly going to read what the historians had written, and as it pertains to Rudometkin, by reading that his mystical belief system and religious practices were a byproduct of his Khlysty heritage, by reading this, if the peasant sectarians could even read in the first place, those sectarians who were already Rudometkinites, were supposedly going to suddenly stop being followers of Rudometkin, and convert back to Orthodoxy. With all due respect, taking into consideration the adamant boast that "I have done my research", this unsubstantiated hypothesis is an opinion based on personal bias and assumption, and can hardly be considered conclusive, intelligent deduction. .

. Regarding: To clarify, when Mel'nikov uses the term "God's People" he is referring specifically to the Khlysty. This is clear when he states: Therefore, to insert in parenthesis (the Khlysty) is simply a restatement of the obvious, and keeps the readers informed about the true context intended by the author whenever the term "People of God" or "God's People" is used. Regarding: The excuse that the "authors mentioned are questionable at best" is simply that, an excuse which is not substantiated with any concrete documentation other than the fact that the Rudometkinites do not like the evidence that has been presented, and wish that it would just "go away". Likewise with their theory that purportedly "accuracy was not of importance" among the historians, as well as their attempt to hypothesize that the reason those truths which the Rudometkinites object to were written, is supposedly because the historians were trying to "convert others back to Orthodoxy". Both theories are excuses that are made by the Rudometkinites without any evidence other than their own prejudicial assumptions. The only difference in this instance is that the word "probably" was only implied, instead of stating it outright. Regarding: Once again, the depth of the chasm between the Rudometkinites and the Bible based followers of the Lord Jesus Christ cannot be denied. I for one am glad to see the responses like the one above from the Rudometkinites made public. In my experience, when speaking with those "Molokans" who are now working in the fields of the Lord in other non-Molokan Christian churches, I find that this very "attitude" of the Rudometkinites has contributed most to the exodus away from our "Molokan" churches, and has more to do with the decline of our present day "Molokan" community than anything else. .

. I had never noticed this thread before on the forum. Thank you Anakainosis for posting it. I wish I was computer literate to be able to scan and post like this. This is excellent historical documentation which demonstrates that Rudometkin and his spiritual mysticism were not some unknown "secret". Enough has been documented about him historically to verify that his spiritual roots were deeply planted in the mystical evil filth of his Khlysty forefathers. Before my diagnosis and all of the cancer treatment and surgery, we had started to translate Ding'lshtedt's book into English, but never got around to completing it. Hopefully now, time will allow us to do so. Until then, those who claim to be allegedly "fluent" in Russian can read it in its original form. Thank you again Anakainosis! .

. Bringing this thread to the top, for those who might have either forgotten about it, or have never read it. .

. Regarding: Delusional? Jumping to conclusions? Fibbing? Not hardly! This topic has been covered so thoroughly over the years that I am amazed to see that we continue to revisit the subject of Rudometkin's Khlysty forefathers and the Khlystical influences upon the origin of the "Jumper" sect in Russia. For those who might not be familiar with this historical information, I am bringing to the top the thread entitled "History". I would like to highlight a few of the excerpts from that thread: Following are some historical facts, reprinted from a book entitled "Na Ghorakh", written by P. I. Melnikov, Second Edition, Fifth Volume, St. Petersburg, 1909. (Translated from the original Russian) God's People, or the Khlysty, as they are usually called among the people, believe that it is possible, in a direct, immediate connection, to always communicate the human soul with divinity. Being similar to the Dukhabors, they preach that the physical incarnation of Christ permanently and perpetually dwells on earth. This sect cannot even be considered as a denomination that is part of the Christian heresy. (Part 3, Page 225) The stories of God's People (the Khlysty) continue... about those christs who existed previously and now, about those christs who continue to walk the earth. Stories are heard how they (these christs) were imprisoned and how in Moscow they were crucified, but how on the third day they resurrected. It is heard that now, at the foot of Mount Ararat, lives a new christ, Makcim, who is regarded as a prophet, high priest and the king of God's People (the Khlysty).... (Part 3, Page 264) For several consecutive years, Igor Sergeyevitch travelled, going to central Russia, then to the Volga region, then to new Russia, even going to Siberia and abroad to Moldavia. Everywhere he went, he became acquainted with the People of God (the Khlysty) and before he returned, while he was in the Transcaucases, he became acquainted there with the "Visionaries", or better known by the name the "Jumpers". The Visionaries. They called only themselves by this name because they were convinced that they visualized the Holy Spirit. They also called themselves the "spiritual". Because of the fact that the Visionaries take part in a physical manifestation of spirit, like the Khlysty, and also because they make believe as if they "visualize the spirit" or spirits, the outsiders call them (the Visionaries) "Jumpers" and "Shakers". This sect, a blend of the teachings and practices of the Molokans mixed with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty, arose among those who were banished to the Transcaucases together with the Molokans from the Milky Water region. They (the Visionaries) consider their founder to be Lukian Sokoloff. The biggest part of the Jumper sect lives in the village of Nikitino, close to Alexandropol. They are also found in the region of Erevan, in the Lenkoransko region and in other areas of the Transcaucases. The successor of Sokoloff was Makcim Rudometkin, or Komar, who was regarded as a christ, prophet, high priest and king of the "spiritual" (the Jumpers or Visionaries). He was triumphantly and pompously coronated in the village of Nikitino--(That is, this new sect is altogether different and separate from the original Molokans who call themselves "True Spiritual Christians".) The people from the Lupovits region impatiently waited for the return of Igor Sergeyevitch. He travelled from the foot of Mount Ararat, from the places near the upper regions of the Euphrates River, where, before the beginning of creation, God's earthly paradise was planted and where, according to how the People of God (the Khlysty) believe, God will open up anew for the glorious existence of the holy righteous, for the everlasting service of their God and Lamb. The news reached the Lupovits region that there, at the foot of Mount Ararat, appeared a king, prophet and high priest who was triumphantly and pompously coronated and who, having clothed himself in royal purple, along with other distinguishing royal attire, he put on a crown and , in imitation of King David, with a harp in hand, danced and jumped among a large throng of people on the broad street of the village of Nikitino. The news also reached the Lupovits region that this King Komar (Rudometkin) saved aside the wife to whom he was legally married and he took himself an additional "spiritual" wife. It was explained that all the "holy men" from the Mount Ararat region had "Spiritual" wives. Some had one, others had two and still others had three "spiritual" wives. (Part 3, Page 119) Lukian Peter Sokoloff. He was a Molokan from the settlement of Lalamatin, in the county of Kamishinska, in the state of Saratov, who, yet from the year of 1836, while living in the Milky Water region, began to concentrate his efforts to blend and mix the teachings and practices of the Molokans with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty, but he did not have any success there with his mystical teachings and enthusiastic ceremonies. It is unknown where Sokoloff then left to but it is said that he possibly went to Moldavia. In 1836, when the people in the Milky Water region awaited the end of the world, there appeared his (Sokoloff's) accomplices (it is unknown who they were), calling themselves the Apocalyptical "Enoch and Elijah". Their boldness reached the point where they even interrupted church services in the Orthodox temple, shouting out during the services and doing different licentious acts. Right after them appeared the Judge of the living and the dead, the christ and prophet, Lukian Sokoloff. More than once, he (Sokoloff) designated the day of fearful judgement, but the archangel's trumpet never did roar, although Sokoloff brought attention to Halley's Comet (which appeared in 1836) and how it was the foreteller of the fact that the end of the world was near. With each night, the comet got brighter and brighter but the people got used to it and in the end, it began to fade away and then Enoch, Elijah and even the Judge, Lukian Sokoloff, vanished to unknown places. Soon he (Sokoloff) appeared in the state of Samaria and there, many Molokans and Khlysty were enticed (by Sokoloff) to the Transcaucases. More than once, he led a crowd of followers by enticing them to the foot of Mount Ararat, returning past the praries of the Volga region for new migrants, but it is unknown what happened to him in the end. Traces of him appeared in Bessarabia. Sokoloff was in Asiatic Turkey and Persia, and from there, he returned to the state of Erevan, where his continued efforts to blend and mix the teachings and practices of the Molokans with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty produced the separate heresy, the "Jumpers" or "Visionaries". He was especially close with Makcim Komar or Rudometkin, who, it is said, was the first from among the Molokans to participate in the physical manifestation of the Khlysty, (which took place during their special mystical and enthusiastic services called the "radenia"), in the village of Nikitino. It is unknown what happened to Lukian Sokoloff. (Part 3, Pages 295-296) And Makcim (Rudometkin) reigned over the "People of God" (Khlysty). On the street of the village of Nikitino, during a ceremony under the open sky, he put on a royal crown, along with a robe of royal purple, and he leaped and danced in the manner of King David, playing music on the stringed organ, and, placing himself as Christ, he (Rudometkin) took upon himself the rank of High Priest and Prophet above all prophets. ( Part 3, Page 291) …and among the sectarians at Mt. Ararat, the Khlysty began to blend and mix together with the Molokans, both rejecting and renouncing the (Russian Orthodox) Church and all of its ceremonies and rituals. From this mixture of Khlysty blended with Molokans, arose, first in the Caucasus, and then in other places in Southern Russia, the sect known as "Visionaries" or "Jumpers" ….and from among the Visionaries appeared a king, prophet and high priest. This king Makcim (Rudometkin) received unlimited authority and domination over the Jumpers, and for the most part, contributed to the blending of the doctrines of the Khlysty with the teachings and practices of the Molokans. It is generally known that he is responsible for changing the old teachings of the Khlysty and for dictating new laws, including the practice of taking a "spiritual wife". (Part 3, Page 226) And what about "spiritual wives" among the sectarians living at Mt. Ararat ? This also Makcim (Rudometkin) instituted. Now he has two wives, and others there (among his followers) have three and even more (spiritual wives) …they (his followers) say there (at Mt. Ararat) that "we are the 'People of God' (Khlysty), led by the spirit, we are 'New Israel', and we conduct ourselves as it was with Israel (Jacob) who had two wives, who were related between themselves as sisters (Leah and Rachel), and, besides that, he (Jacob) had two maidservants (Zilpah and Bilhah), and from all of these four (women) come forth (Genesis 29:14 – Genesis 30:24), equally blessed, the offspring (12 tribes) of Israel (Jacob)". (Part 3, Page 297) In his book entitled Russian Noncomformity (Page 110), the Russian historian Serge Bolshakoff, writes that in addition to "preserving their own Khlysty features", the new Jumper sect adopted the mystical Khlysty ritual of "sacred dancing and prophesying", and they changed the Khlysty office of "christ", renaming him "czar/king" (as in "Czar Dooghov/King of Spirits"). .