Woman Clothed In The Sun

October 15, 2004

Quote anonymous:

The "woman clothed in the sun" in Revelation 10 is Israel, the "root" of the "natural" olive tree, who "gave birth" to.......THE MAN-CHILD.......JESUS.......the "descendant," the "son," "born" of the house of David, the BRANCH/ROD from the root/stump of Jesse.

Who then is the Husband of the Woman clothed in the Sun?

October 15, 2004

Quote anonymous:

The "woman clothed in the sun" in Revelation 10 is Israel, the "root" of the "natural" olive tree, who "gave birth" to.......THE MAN-CHILD.......JESUS.......the "descendant," the "son," "born" of the house of David, the BRANCH/ROD from the root/stump of Jesse.

Who then is the Husband of the Woman clothed in the Sun?

If you "knew" THE FATHER, you would "know" the answer.

October 16, 2004

So you would say that Christ is not the head of the Church, as every man is the head of his own wife?

And if Christ is the Head or Husband of the Church, than how can He give birth to Himself?

anakainosis · October 16, 2004

Fourvetta, it is most likely that the woman clothed in the sun is the remnant of the believing Israel figuratively and the child born is the Christ who is prophesied in the Old Testament to be born by a virgin birth thru her.

"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. " (Revelation 12:5, NASB95)

Where is Jesus Christ right now fully alive and resurrected?

"But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." " (Acts 7:55-56, NASB95)

Who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron?

"Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing? The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, "Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!" He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them. Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain." "I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ˜You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. ˜Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession. ˜You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.` " Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. Worship the Lord with reverence And rejoice with trembling. Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!" (Psalm 2, NASB95)

God's Son who came, manifested in the flesh (John 1:1; 1:14) was sacrificed to make Atonement for the sins of His chosen on the cross (Romans 3:25).

Who else could bring the Glorious Grace of God to people?

"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. " (Revelation 12:10-11, NASB95)

This couldn`t have been Maxim like he himself claims to be. What arrogance, what a big fat head you must have to claim equality with Christ`s calling and titles!

The Lamb is Jesus Christ it can not and will not be anybody else!

Why do you confuse yourself and others about who the husband is of ˜The Woman Clothed¦` and you try to analyze and limit Jesus according to Human associations? That is you try to reason, "If Christ is the Head or Husband of the Church, than how can He give birth to Himself?" When scripture talks about the bride and the bridegroom, this is figurative language. Besides, can you share with me where it says the woman clothed in the sun is the bride of Christ/Maxim?

Christ has been made the Head of the Church, he is King of kings, Lord of lords and he is God over everything in creation. The Father turned it over to him.

He is even the Bridegroom.

October 17, 2004

The Woman is figurative of Zion, which is made up of every nation of true believers in Jesus Christ.

The twelve stars upon her head are the number of those sealed from among the twelve tribes of sons of Israel. The 144,000 that were taken from the bosom of Abraham at the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The remnant that you spoke of is written of in Revelations 7: 4-8 and in chapter 14: 1-5

Up to the time of Jesus Christ, only 144,000 of the Jewish nation were saved by their faith.

Hosea said, "The Lord said, I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel. I shall not be their God and they shall not be My people. Although Israel shall number as the sands of the sea, only a remnant shall be saved."

The Red Dragon beneath the woman ready to devour her Child as soon as He was born, is the Jewish Synagogue, by the words of Jesus Christ Himself, "O you progeny of vipers."

They always killed the Prophets, even their own Lord Jesus Christ and after killing him, later rose against the believers in Him, persecuting and killing them also.

Christ said to them also in revelations, "To them who say they are Jews and are not, I will make them a synogogue of satan."

Christ said to them, "Your house is left desolate. You shall not see Me again until you cry, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Do no cry for Me, but cry for your children."

Paul also says, "but we are true Jews by nature, who worship God in Spirit and in Truth."

anakainosis · October 17, 2004

Wow fourvetta! Your response surprises me. You gave a little this time, some thought that is. Your view makes some sense and I agree with some of it, but I know you`re going out on your own guesswork on some.

"The Woman is figurative of Zion, which is made up of every nation of true believers in Jesus Christ."

We can only guess. I currently believe it represents Israel.

Up to the time of Jesus Christ, only 144,000 of the Jewish nation were saved by their faith.

Hosea said, "The Lord said, I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel. I shall not be their God and they shall not be My people. Although Israel shall number as the sands of the sea, only a remnant shall be saved."

Paul also says,

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery”so that you will not be wise in your own estimation”that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." "This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God`s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. " (Romans 11:25-32, NASB95)

God has not totally turned his back on Israel.

Who do you think the male child is?

October 18, 2004

Who do you think the male child is?

The man child is the Spirit of Truth who is to govern all nations with a rod of iron, as Christ said, "I shall send to you the Spirit of Truth and He shall teach you all things. It is better that I go, otherwise He cannot come."

The iron rod is figurative of governing with the authority of Jesus Christ.

anakainosis · October 18, 2004

""But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. " (John 14:26, NASB95)

Notice though, that He sends the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus, not in the name Akhmet Ulia, King Ures, King of Spirits etc.

""When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning." (John 15:26-27, NASB95)

Notice also that He will testify about Jesus Christ and not of Himself (Hero, Maxim, God of his Prygun people.

""I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. " (John 16:12-13, NASB95)

Notice Christ says, "He will not speak on His own initiative¦" Maxim takes it upon himself to bring a ˜new gospel` only for the Prygun sect and not for others; he also condemns those who deny his new message.

"Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." " (Acts 1:4-5, NASB95)

Notice that Jesus says, "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now" the Spirit of Truth was to come to the Disciples in their day not in the nineteenth century to be manifested in one man who calls himself ˜king of spirits`.

"When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. " (Acts 2:1-4, NASB95)

Notice that all of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and the Comforter that is the Spirit of Truth gave them their utterance to speak of Jesus Christ in other languages that were comprehensible by foreigners (read the following passages).

""Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. " (Acts 2:33, NASB95)

Therefore the promised coming of the Holy Spirit, Comforter, and Spirit of Truth has been fulfilled some time in the first century A.D. at Pentecost.

There is no Biblical basis or suggestion that there will be a manifestation in one man. Like the world has been waiting for ˜Maxim the savior/hero` or our people needed him to save them, like Jesus wasn`t good enough.

October 19, 2004

Just as the Word of God became manifest in the man Jesus Christ, the Spirit of truth became manifest in the conqueror.

As Christ said, "I shall be His God and He shall be My Son."

anonymous · October 19, 2004

So you would say that Christ is not the head of the Church, as every man is the head of his own wife?

And if Christ is the Head or Husband of the Church, than how can He give birth to Himself? (Post #3, fourvetta)

fourvetta,

THE LORD GOD HAS NO BEGINNING AND NO END.

THE LORD GOD IS THE BEGINNING AND THE END.

HE ALWAYS IS.

HE IS FROM EVERLASTING to EVERLASTING aka ETERNAL.

THE LORD GOD IS THE CREATOR.

HE CREATED AND SUSTAINS ALL THAT EXISTS.

Your problem lies in the fact that you do not "believe," therefore, cannot "understand," that THE CREATOR is "triune."

You do not believe that THE LORD GOD IS ONE in THREE PERSONS as HIS WORD teaches; that HE IS GOD...THE FATHER, and that HE IS GOD...THE SON/WORD/JESUS, and that HE IS GOD...THE HOLY SPIRIT, and that THESE THREE are THE "ONE" CREATOR...THE LORD GOD.

IF you believed this, HIS SPIRIT, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH...HE HIMSELF dwelling in you, would give you the "understanding" that HE is THE HEAD, THE SOVEREIGN, not only of the woman clothed in the sun, but of ALL things ALWAYS.

HE would also give you the "understanding" that your question regarding HIM giving "birth" to HIMSELF is motivated by an arrogant heart thinking itself "wise" in its own eyes, which in HIS LIGHT and HIS TRUTH, is "foolish."

Pride = blindness = foolishness.

anonymous · October 19, 2004

Just as the Word of God became manifest in the man Jesus Christ, the Spirit of truth became manifest in the conqueror.

As Christ said, "I shall be His God and He shall be My Son."

"THE WORD became a human and lived among us." (John1:14a)

"THE WORD" IS...GOD;

"THE SPIRIT" IS...GOD;

"THE TRUTH" IS...GOD;

"THE CONQUEROR" IS...GOD;

...in the person of...JESUS...WHO IS...THE LORD...GOD.

anakainosis · October 19, 2004

Just as the Word of God became manifest in the man Jesus Christ, the Spirit of truth became manifest in the conqueror.

As Christ said, "I shall be His God and He shall be My Son."

Almost in every book of the Bible we can find evidence of the Deity of Christ.

Where is your Scriptural evidence showing that the Spirit of Truth will be manifested in one person?

Also, specifically, who is this conqueror of yours?

As Christ said, "I shall be His God and He shall be My Son."

I'm curious, where in Scripture did you find Christ saying this?

October 20, 2004

QUOTE
As Christ said, "I shall be His God and He shall be My Son."

I'm curious, where in Scripture did you find Christ saying this?

In Chapter 21 of Revelations. Christ is speaking to the Conqueror and not to Himself.

21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

October 20, 2004

As Christ said, "I shall be His God and He shall be My Son."

I'm curious, where in Scripture did you find Christ saying this?

In chapter 21 in revelations Christ is speaking of the conqueror and not of Himself.

21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I (Christ) shall be His (the conqueror) God and He (the conqueror) shall be My(Christ) Son.

It does not say that Christ will be a God to Himself and He Himself will be also be His own Son.

Please don't embarass yourself by putting yourself in the postion of the conqueror or the Son of Christ.

The reason why?

To Him that conquers, I (Christ) will grant to sit on My throne just as I have conquered and sat with My Father on His throne.

In other words, be a part of the Diety of the triune Godhead.

To Him that conquers, I (Christ) will give authority to rule the nations with a rod of iron as I (Christ) also have recieved authority from My Father.

Where is your Scriptural evidence showing that the Spirit of Truth will be manifested in one person?

Revelations

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

anakainosis · October 20, 2004

Fourvetta, I clearly see what Christ is saying in Revelation 21:7. I guess where we disagree is who this son is. I am guessing you are implying that Maxim is this son of Christ, this conqueror, for the reason that you have not answered my previous question. If I am in error please let me know.

You say, "Please don`t embarrass yourself¦" That is common voice I am sure we all hear in our heads quite frequently when it comes to spiritual issues. It is a ploy or tactic the Adversary and our ˜flesh` will use to thwart any work to be done for the Kingdom of God.

As with any attack I will go to the scriptures for assurance and comfort.

Revelation 21:7-8

"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Notice there is a contrast between the two verses, verse eight starts with ˜but`. That is this conqueror will become His son as opposed to the unbeliever burning forever. So far by your implied interpretation you are saying Maxim is his Son and the rest of us (including yourself) are dammed to Hell. If I am wrong, let me know.

'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.' Revelation 2:11

You also say, "don`t embarrass yourself by claiming the position of the conqueror¦" because in other words, you would be claiming to be apart of the triune Godhead.

You quote Revelation 3:21

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Notice that this verse says nothing about sharing the divine nature of God or the conqueror becoming "God" in the divine sense that the Father and Son share.

The overcomer or conqueror referred to in the passages you quoted are they or whoever ˜conquer thru Faith in Christ`.

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1 John 5:5

You are a conqueror if you are born of God (John 3, second birth). We are also fellow heirs with Christ in His Kingdom if we are His children.

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together." Romans 8:17

Are we not heirs of His Kingdom if we truly love Him?

"Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world {to be} rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?" James 5:5

If we are true heirs would we not be able to hear His voice?

'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' " Revelation 3:20-22

If we are heirs we may be given authority over nations.

'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received {authority} from My Father;" Revelation 2:26-27

That does not mean whoever overcomes will be like God in a divine nature, but judges, Satan tried to be like God and fell from heaven like lightning.

If you are a Christian you will conquer and Jesus Christ is your God. You also will be His son.

seeking_truth_1 · October 20, 2004

Revelations

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

forvetta:

Before you attempt to take anyone down a rabbit trail, let's establish what meaning you are attempting to place upon this passage

Now I know that you and other pro-MGR types use this as a proof text to say "the one on the white horse, that's MGR and the

others, they are the true molokans"

Let's look at the verse for some clues as to the true identity

The one on the white horse is called faithful and true and the Word of God and has a tat stating "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS"

This is a slam dunk...

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God." (Joh 1:1-2 NKJV)

The reference to "He" is Jesus

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." (Joh 1:14 NKJV)

The Word (Jesus) became flesh and was here on Earth...

Clearly, the Word of God (according to John) is Jesus the only begotten of the Father (John 3:16)

Now to the reference "King of kings, Lord of Lords"

""These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those [who are] with Him [are] called, chosen, and faithful."" (Re 17:14 NKJV)

This is another reference to Jesus

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (Joh 1:29 NKJV)

or perhaps you would prefer

"And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God!"" (Joh 1:36 NKJV)

Sorry, the one on the white horse is not MGR

Now this also brings up another dispute as to who the armies are

That we'll save for another thread (to avoid muddying up this one)

By the way, you NEVER answered the questions I posed to you

1) Who is Jesus? Is He a man or God in physical form?
2) How do you, forvetta get to Heaven? By being molokan or by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross?
3) Can you non molokan neighbor get to Heaven? If so, how?

Please do not respond to the 3 questions here but in it's original thread

forvetta, Who is Jesus?

October 21, 2004

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together

Notice that James and John were denied and even rebuked for wanting to sit at the right and left hand of Christ in His kingdom. It is set apart for those for whom it is prepared.

Mark 10

35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.

36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?

37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

To sit on Christ's throne would be equal to saying, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father and the Son also."

And to rule the nations with a rod of iron, with the authority of Christ?

That's equal to saying, that you are the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The one on the white horse is called faithful and true and the Word of God and has a tat stating "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS"

This is a slam dunk...

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God." (Joh 1:1-2 NKJV)

The reference to "He" is Jesus

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

I guess seeking maybe did not realize that Christ is sitting on the white horse. We are not saying that MGR is Christ in this text, but He is the white horse upon whom Christ sits.

The Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is upon the white horse.

The Word of God (Christ) became flesh and dwelt among us.

October 21, 2004

?
As Christ said, "I shall be His God and He shall be My Son."

The passage that fourvetta refers to (Revelation 21: 6-8) more accurately begins in the 5th verse:

"Then HE WHO SAT ON THE THRONE SAID, 'Behold, I make all things new'. And He said to me, 'Write, for these words are true and faithful' (reference to the One Who is described in Revelation 19:11)."

The question that needs to be answered is:

"Who is the One SITTING ON THE THRONE?"

Whoever is sitting on the throne is the One saying in the next verse (verse 6, as quoted by fourvetta), "I will be his God and he shall be My son".

From Revelation 7:10:

"...Salvation belongs to our GOD WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, and to the Lamb!"

From Revelation 4:10-11:

"...the twenty-four elders fall down before HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE and worship Him Who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne saying,

'You are worthy, O Lord,

To receive glory and honor and power;

For you created all things,

And by Your will they exist and were created'."

From Revelation 5:6-7:

"...in the midst of the throne...stood a Lamb...

Then He (the Lamb) came and took the scroll out of the right hand of HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE."

From Revelation 5:13:

"Blessing and honor and glory and power

Be to HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE,

And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

From Revelation 6:16:

"...hide us from the face of HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

From Revelation 7:15-17:

"Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And HE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE WILL DWELL AMONG THEM...for the Lamb Who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of water..."

From Revelation 19:4:

"And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped GOD WHO SAT ON THE THRONE..."

Regarding Fourvetta's statement about the meaning of the Scripture from Revelation 21:6:

"I (Christ) shall be His (the conqueror) God and He (the conqueror) shall be My(Christ) Son."

According to what is written in the Bible, this passage actually means:

I...(God, Who sits on the throne)...will be his...(the person who overcomes)...God and he...(the person who overcomes)...shall be My (referring to God, Who sits on the throne)...son.

In fourvetta's attempt to provide "evidence" of the reason for his belief that the Spirit of Truth will be manifested in one person (meaning Rudometkin), the context of the Scripture that he quotes does not refer to the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth) becoming incarnate, manifest in only one singular human being, out of everyone else throughout the history of mankind, and only that one person (again, meaning Rudometkin).

anakainosis · October 21, 2004

Where is your Scriptural evidence showing that the Spirit of Truth will be manifested in one person?

Revelations

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Good job fourvetta, Christ is the one who has the Spirit of Truth manifested in Him.

Unless you think somehow Maxim is the white horse and Christ rides him to conquer. I would be interested in hearing how you explain that one.

seeking_truth_1 · October 22, 2004

We are not saying that MGR is Christ in this text, but He is the white horse upon whom Christ sits.

Now whoa there Wilbur...(aka fourvetta)

To Clarify, is "He" you make reference to in the above quote (aka the white horse) MGR?

seeking_truth_1 · October 22, 2004

By the way...

Please answer the questions posed before

What's the problem?

Are you afraid to expalin your theology out here?

Won't it stand up in the light of Scripture

When I say Scripture I mean the Bible not any spurious books you and your ilk embrace

1) Who is Jesus? Is He a man or God in physical form?
2) How do you, forvetta get to Heaven? By being molokan or by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross?
3) Can you non molokan neighbor get to Heaven? If so, how?

Please do not respond to the 3 questions here but in it's original thread listed below

fourvetta, Who is Jesus?

anakainosis · October 22, 2004

Fourvetta, you quote Mark 10:35-41 and say,

Notice that James and John were denied and even rebuked for wanting to sit at the right and left hand of Christ in His kingdom. It is set apart for those for whom it is prepared.

Fourvetta, notice the previous verses where Christ is telling the disciples that He will be going to the cross and will suffer. It was a pretty serious moment and then, James and john run up and ask, ˜can we sit¦` This shows their petty selfish ambitions; of course the others would be irritated. This is not a good verse to prove your point! A true Christian does not seek power, glory, pomp or authority that come with a throne. Christ addresses that attitude in the following verses.

"Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. "But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."" (Mark 10:42-45, NASB95)

We are to serve; that is the attitude we are to have. I personally do not claim that I will sit on the throne with Christ, just as He said; "it is for those whom it has been prepared" I would be grateful just to take the trash out!

anakainosis · October 22, 2004

fourvetta

To sit on Christ's throne would be equal to saying, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father and the Son also."

And to rule the nations with a rod of iron, with the authority of Christ?

That's equal to saying, that you are the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So¦¦¦

Is that Maxim?

His writings do claim that, you know¦

kharece · October 22, 2004

"
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together

Notice that James and John were denied and even rebuked for wanting to sit at the right and left hand of Christ in His kingdom. It is set apart for those for whom it is prepared.

Mark 10

35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.

36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?

37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

To sit on Christ's throne would be equal to saying, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father and the Son also."

And to rule the nations with a rod of iron, with the authority of Christ?

That's equal to saying, that you are the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

It seems as if Forvetta is confused. What does the quoted Romans verse have to do with sitting on the throne? Heirs of Christ is not the same as sitting on the throne with Him. Wouldn't heirs imply being part of the family?

Also, I hate to sound like a broken record, but the book of Revelation is just that - a single revelation. I do not understand why in our community there seems to be confusion over this. Can anybody explain it?

October 22, 2004

"I (Christ) shall be His (the conqueror) God and He (the conqueror) shall be My(Christ) Son."

According to what is written in the Bible, this passage actually means:

I...(God, Who sits on the throne)...will be his...(the person who overcomes)...God and he...(the person who overcomes)...shall be My (referring to God, Who sits on the throne)...son.

Read the text again. Who is the Alpha and the Omega??

21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

The throne of God is, upon whom the Spirit of God rests or the Lord from above. There is freedom to all those who will believe in Him.

His name shall be called, the Word of God.

anakainosis · October 22, 2004

fourvetta writes,

We are not saying that MGR is Christ in this text, but He is the white horse upon whom Christ sits.

Fourvetta,

What is your scriptural proof for your proposition?

How do you know that is true?

October 22, 2004

fourvetta, you asked earlier -

And if Christ is the Head or Husband of the Church, than how can He give birth to Himself?

Going back to your comment that Jesus Christ is the One Who sits on the throne -

Read the text again. Who is the Alpha and the Omega??

21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

What you are saying is -

From Revelation 21:5-7:

...He Who sat upon the throne said...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end...he who overcomes...I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Read the text again.

From Revelation 7:10:

...Salvation belongs to our GOD WHO SITS ON THE THRONE...

From Revelation 19:4:

And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped GOD WHO SAT ON THE THRONE...

Who is the Lamb??

From Revelation 5:6-7:

...in the midst of the throne...stood a Lamb...

Then He (the Lamb) came and took the scroll out of the right hand of HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE.

If Jesus Christ is the Lamb, how can He come and take the scroll out of the right hand of HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE, if Jesus is the One sitting on the throne as the Alpha and the Omega?

Are you saying that God is the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is also the Lamb of God, Who is also the Alpha and the Omega? Are you saying that Jesus Christ is God?

Goes hand in hand with your question -

And if Christ is the Head or Husband of the Church, than how can He give birth to Himself?

October 25, 2004

Guest posted -

In Chapter 21 of Revelations. Christ is speaking to the Conqueror and not to Himself.

To keep everything in its proper context...

In the passage from Revelation 21:7, Christ is speaking to "He who overcomes", not to "the Conqueror" (meaning the One written about in Revelation 6:2).

The "Conqueror" is the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is described in that passage from Scripture as riding a white horse. He is also written about in Revelation 19:11-16, where He is called "Faithful and True" and "The Word of God" and "King of Kings and Lord of Lords".

The context of the words "he who overcomes" in Revelation 21:7 refers to more than just one single isolated person and does NOT indicate, imply, or infer M. G. Rudometkin, or any other single individual.

From Revelation 2:23-26 (in proper context):

...And I will give to EACH ONE OF YOU according to your works.

But to you I say, and to the rest of Thyatira, as MANY as do not have this doctrine...I will put on you no other burden.

But hold fast what you have till I come.

And he who overcomes (the Son of God is speaking to "each one of you", plural), and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations...

From Revelation 3:4-5 (in proper context):

...and THEY shall walk with Me in white, for THEY are worthy.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments (this refers to "they shall walk with Me in white", plural), and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

From Revelation 3:19-21 (in proper context):

As MANY as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If ANYONE hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in TO HIM and dine WITH HIM, and HE with me (these words "him" and "he" refer to "anyone", plural).

To him who overcomes (this also refers to "anyone", plural) I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

From Revelation 21:3-8 (in proper context):

...Behold the tabernacle of God is WITH MEN (this refers to "people", plural, both male and female), and He will dwell WITH THEM, and THEY shall be His people, and God Himself will be WITH THEM and be THEIR GOD...

And God will wipe away every tear from THEIR EYES...

...I will give of the fountains of the water of life freely to him who thirsts (this refers to "whomever" thirsts, plural).

He who overcomes shall inherit all things (this refers to "they shall be His people", plural), and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

BUT the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death (this is in contrast to those "people", plural, who shall "overcome" and "inherit all things", who shall receive "power over the nations", and be made a "pillar in the temple" of God).

The term "he who overcomes" is NOT synonymous with the man described in Revelation 6:2, Who is riding on a white horse, Who has a crown given to Him, Who goes out to conquer.

October 26, 2004

Sorry.. He who overcomes is written in the singular tense. Read it in Russian.

Christ said that He that overcomes, or is victorious, or conqueors will be a Pillar in the Temple of God, upon whom Christ will write the Name of God and the City of God, the New Jerusalem and His New Name. Rev. 3:12

The walls of the City had twelve foundation stones. The twleve Apostles.

Note that the first foundation stone in the New City of Jerusalem is Jasper... the Apostle Peter.

Christ said to Peter, "You are the Rock Jasper. Upon you I shall build My Church."

Now we know that a Pillar in the Temple would be after the foundation was already laid, Christ being the Chief Cornerstone in the Temple.

Question. Who is the Pillar in the Temple?

Being that it is not Christ, since He is the cornerstone.

Neither is it the Apostles, being that they are are the Foundation Stones.

October 26, 2004

Regarding -

Sorry.. He who overcomes is written in the singular tense. Read it in Russian.

That's the point.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock.

If ANYONE hears My voice and opens the door,

I will come in TO HIM

and dine WITH HIM,

and HE with me.

Read it in Russian. "Him" and "he" are singular, but the context of the text refers to the plural, "anyone".

The context doesn't change from one sentence to the next (Verse 20 to Verse 21). The words "To him who overcomes" refers to "anyone", and are a continuation of -

Behold, I stand at the door and knock.

If ANYONE hears My voice and opens the door,

I will come in TO HIM

and dine WITH HIM,

and HE with me.

October 26, 2004

fourvetta,

Re:

Christ said that He that overcomes, or is victorious, or conqueors will be a Pillar in the Temple of God, upon whom Christ will write the Name of God and the City of God, the New Jerusalem and His New Name. Rev. 3:12

Here you say "a Pillar".

Question. Who is the Pillar in the Temple?

Now you have suddenly changed to "the Pillar".

You mean to say that you believe Rudometkin is by some special design the one and only pillar in the temple of God?

Galatians 2:9

"James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars..."

Autumn

anakainosis · October 26, 2004

fourvetta writes,

We are not saying that MGR is Christ in this text, but He is the white horse upon whom Christ sits.

again Fourvetta,

What is your scriptural proof for your proposition?

How do you know that is true?

October 27, 2004

You mean to say that you believe Rudometkin is by some special design the one and only pillar in the temple of God?

As a part of the temple of God, the Cornerstone, Foundation stones, Walls and the twelve gates all fit together. By design of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Christ being the Head of the church.

As the scriptures says, "The tabernacle of God is with men. He shall dwell among them and they shall be His people."

Romans

13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God`s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

This is Not speaking of President Bush.

anakainosis · October 27, 2004

Fourvetta, you remind me of George Samarin the Preacher; you like to avoid the questions asked and you go off on tangents.

Also Romans 13 clearly talks about submission to ˜Government Authorities`; we don`t pay taxes to Maxim or God if that`s what you are implying.

:crazy:

October 27, 2004

Fourvetta,

...you like to avoid the questions asked and you go off on tangents.

Not only that, but when you go off on your tangents, you start hiding behind your "beatnik" lingo, as if there is some underlying "spiritual" meaning which you can't bring yourself to explain in plain ol' English somehow.

You always do this whenever you want to evade the questions, which is quite often.

I'd still like to know how you transition from where the Bible speaks about "a pillar" in the Temple of God (as in one of many) to your statement about "the pillar" (as in Rudometkin supposedly being the one and only).

I'd also like to hear your explanation about how Jesus as the Lamb of God can come and take the scroll out of the right hand of Him Who is seated on the throne, if, as you say, Jesus Christ is the One already sitting on the throne as the Alpha and the Omega?

By your own admission, Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, Who is seated on the throne.

Read the text again. Who is the Alpha and the Omega??

From Revelation 21:5-7:

...He Who sat upon the throne said...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end...he who overcomes...I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

The only way this can be is because the Lord Jesus Christ is God, as it is written:

From Revelation 7:10:

...Salvation belongs to our GOD WHO SITS ON THE THRONE...

From Revelation 19:4:

And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped GOD WHO SAT ON THE THRONE...

Jesus is the Word of God Who, when He was begotten as the Son of God, God became manifest in human flesh (John 1:14).

You admit that Jesus is the Lamb of God. The reason Jesus can take the scroll out of the right hand of Himself while He is sitting on the throne is because "God" is triune, having made Himself known to mankind in three persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

This is why God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are both referred to in Scripture as The Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

This is why Jesus, Who is God, can be the head of the Church, and still be the male child (He is the Messiah and Savior, the Conqueror in the book of Revelation) born of the woman clothed with the sun (she is the nation of Israel, the descendants of Abraham, who was chosen by God, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekial 16:32).

From Isaiah 55:8-9,

For My thoughts are not your thoughts,

Neither are your ways My ways, declares the Lord.

As the heavens are higher than the earth,

So are My ways higher than your ways

and My thoughts higher than your thoughts.

This Scripture means that God does not operate within the boundaries of human standards, nor is He limited according to any guidelines that mankind might want to establish, based on how the natural human mind thinks.

You, the creature, seem to be trying to explain the One Who created you according to the limitations of your own human reasoning. God tells us in the Bible that this is not possible.

Is this why you aviod answering so many of the questions, and why you introduce new tangents all the time whenever you want to evade any of the questions that are asked of you?

Autumn Leaves

steadfast · October 28, 2004

Clearly not having the mind of Christ, Fourvetta when in his dominant spirit can`t seem to muster the strength to answer these questions.

Who is Jesus? Is He a man or God in physical form

How do you, forvetta get to Heaven? By being molokan or by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross?

Can you non molokan neighbor get to Heaven? If so, how?

Is Maxcim subject to Christ?

Is Maxcim equal to Christ?

Fourvetta and all "New Israelites" have obviously subjected themselves to a spirit that will not allow glory to be given to Jesus Christ. I read fourvettas writings which are intermittently coherent and wonder if we`re communicating with a varying combination of multiple spirits.

Are we to pray for this type of unfortunate individual, haven`t they already made their fatal choice? In the verse below I read words like "They perish, They refuse to love the truth and so be saved, All will be condemned". This wording seems pretty definite to me, nothing iffy about it! Knowing this is God`s will because, "God sends them a powerful delusion." So the question remains ; Are we to pray against Gods will ? Ever?

2 Thess 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. NIV

October 29, 2004

What is your scriptural proof for your proposition?

How do you know that is true?

By this mean.... the Spirit of Prophesy.

The Spirit of Prophesy is the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is the Corner Stone of the Church.

The Woman in Revelations 12 is Clothed in the Sun.

anakainosis · October 29, 2004

What is your scriptural proof for your proposition?

How do you know that is true?

By this mean.... the Spirit of Prophesy.

The Spirit of Prophesy is the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is the Corner Stone of the Church.

The Woman in Revelations 12 is Clothed in the Sun.

Fourvetta, read my post again and look at the statement (what you posted that I am quoting!) I am referring to and answer the questions again.

How are you sure that Maxim is the white horse?

What is your scriptural basis to prove that?

How did you test the spirit to verify its truth?

anonymous · November 2, 2004

What is your scriptural proof for your proposition?

How do you know that is true?

By this mean.... the Spirit of Prophesy.

The Spirit of Prophesy is the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is the Corner Stone of the Church.

The Woman in Revelations 12 is Clothed in the Sun.

fourvetta,

THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY IS...THE TESTIMONY OF...JESUS CHRIST.

The "prophecy" in Revelation is ALL ABOUT...JESUS...and THE HOLY SPIRIT aka THE SPIRIT of TRUTH, dwelling in HIS faithful ones, "testifies" of HIM/JESUS...THE TRUTH (John 14:6).

In other words, THE SPIRIT WHO gives ALL prophecy, testifies of...JESUS.

How does mgr as a white steed "prophesy" or "testify" of JESUS?

In other words, what has mgr as a white steed upon which JESUS rides, and mgr's faithful followers as white steeds upon which JESUS' army and body of believers ride, to do with "prophesying" and "testifying" of JESUS?

Don't you THINK it "odd" that your hero and his faithful ones (you and your brethren) AREN'T the ones, HIS church, who ride ON the animals but ARE the animals?

JESUS...IS THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE of HIS CHURCH. HIS SPIRIT "TESTIFIES" OF THIS "TRUTH/PROPHECY."

November 2, 2004

Don't you THINK it "odd" that your hero and his faithful ones (you and your brethren) AREN'T the ones, HIS church, who ride ON the animals but ARE the animals?

Every true worshiper of God, becomes a throne for the Spirit of truth. While every disobeyer of God, becomes a throne for the spirit of the Abyss.

anakainosis · November 2, 2004

Come on fourvetta, don`t ignore my last post!

If you can`t answer it, just admit it.

Just say, ˜it`s too deep and esoteric for me to put in plain words.`

Or you can say, ˜It is written, in the scriptures¦` and give the plain evidence that supports your and your god`s (Maxim King of Spirits) proposition, i.e. Maxim is the white horse.

anonymous · November 2, 2004

Don't you THINK it "odd" that your hero and his faithful ones (you and your brethren) AREN'T the ones, HIS church, who ride ON the animals but ARE the animals?

Every true worshiper of God, becomes a throne for the Spirit of truth. While every disobeyer of God, becomes a throne for the spirit of the Abyss.

fourvetta,

If the white steeds are the true worshippers who become the "thrones" of THE LORD GOD as you assert, "who" are the saints following JESUS, and "why" are they riding on these "thrones" of THE LORD GOD?

November 3, 2004

If the white steeds are the true worshipers who become the "thrones" of THE LORD GOD, "who" are the saints riding on them, following JESUS, riding on these "thrones" of THE LORD GOD?

Matthew

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice in verse 24, His Angels will be sent to gather His elect. So it cannot be that the angels are His elect. The white steeds and not the angels are the Saints.

Hebrews

2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.

anonymous · November 3, 2004

If the white steeds are the true worshipers who become the "thrones" of THE LORD GOD, "who" are the saints riding on them, following JESUS, riding on these "thrones" of THE LORD GOD?

Matthew

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice in verse 24, His Angels will be sent to gather His elect. So it cannot be that the angels are His elect. The white steeds and not the angels are the Saints.

fourvetta,

LISTEN to your conclusion --- "the white steeds are the saints."

Now THINK.

How can the white steeds be the saints when the saints ride UPON the white steeds?

November 4, 2004

How did the angels of God ascend and descend upon Jesus Christ?

John

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man

In the same manner, the angels of God shall ascend and descend upon those who worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

November 4, 2004

How did the angels of God ascend and descend upon Jesus Christ?

John

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man

In the same manner, the angels of God shall ascend and descend upon those who worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

fourvetta,

We're not talking about the angels ascending and descending......

We're talking about your conclusion that the white steeds are NOT angels but the saints, and the question:

How can the white steeds be the saints when the saints ride UPON the white steeds?

November 5, 2004

We're not talking about the angels ascending and descending......

We're talking about your conclusion that the white steeds are NOT angels but the saints, and the question:

How can the white steeds be the saints when the saints ride UPON the white steeds?

Christ is speaking in Matthew that He will come with the angels of God.

I think you get confused between Saints from the past and Saints from the present.

Matthew

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When did the angels of God, ascend and descend upon Christ?

anonymous · November 7, 2004

fourvetta,

Let us return to the topic regarding your hero's claim to be the white steed in Revelation 19:11, upon which JESUS rides, and you and your brethren (his faithful ones) the white steeds in Revelation 19:14, upon which JESUS' army of believers, HIS body, HIS bride, HIS church, the saints, ride, and the question you NEVER answered.

How can the white steeds be the saints when the saints ride upon the white steeds?

This time, try to remain FOCUSED.

You were asked a question:

Don't you THINK it "odd" that your hero, and his faithful ones (you and your brethren) AREN'T the ones, JESUS' church, who ride ON the animals but ARE the animals?

You responded with:

"Every true worshiper of God, becomes a throne for the Spirit of truth. While every disobeyer of God, becomes a throne for the spirit of the Abyss."

In response to your statement, you were asked another question:

If the white steeds are the true worshipers who become the "thrones" of THE LORD GOD as you assert, "who" are the saints following JESUS, and "why" are they riding on these "thrones" of THE LORD GOD?

You responded with:

"Matthew

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice in verse 24, His Angels will be sent to gather His elect. So it cannot be that the angels are His elect. The white steeds and not the angels are the Saints.

Hebrews

2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

The following comments were made in response to your statement(s):

LISTEN to your conclusion.

The white steeds are the saints.

Now THINK.

How can the white steeds be the saints when the saints ride upon the white steeds?

You responded with:

"How did the angels of God ascend and descend upon Jesus Christ?

John

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man

In the same manner, the angels of God shall ascend and descend upon those who worship God in Spirit and in Truth."

Followed by comments in response to your statements:

We're not talking about the angels ascending and descending....

We're talking about your conclusion that the white steeds are NOT angels but the saints, and the question:

How can the white steeds be the saints when the saints ride upon the white steeds?

You responded with:

"Christ is speaking in Matthew that He will come with the angels of God.

I think you get confused between Saints from the past and Saints from the present.

Matthew

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When did the angels of God, ascend and descend upon Christ?"

Now take a moment to review the above dialogue, keeping in mind your hero's claim that he is the white steed in Revelation 19:11, which JESUS rides upon, and that you and your brethren are the white steeds in Revelation 19:14, which JESUS' army of believers, HIS bride, HIS CHURCH, the saints, ride upon.

Remain FOCUSED, and LISTEN to yourself.

---The white steeds cannot be the angels, therefore, they are the saints.

---The angels are the ones ascending and descending upon JESUS.

---The angels are the ones coming with JESUS.

---The angels are the ones who gather the elect.

---There are old and new saints.

Now, let us read the Revelation passages together to "clarify" the "confusion" regarding the saints.

Revelation 19:7-9 - "'Let us rejoice and be glad and give the GLORY to HIM, for the marriage of THE LAMB has come and HIS bride has made herself ready.' And it was given to her to clothe herself in FINE LINEN, BRIGHT AND CLEAN, for THE FINE LINEN is the righteous acts of the saints."

Revelation 19:11-14 - "And I saw Heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and HE WHO sat UPON it is called FAITHFUL AND TRUE; and in RIGHTEOUSNESS HE judges and wages war. And HIS eyes are a flame of fire, and upon HIS head are many diadems; and HE has a NAME written upon HIM which no one knows except HIMSELF. And HE is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD. And the armies which are in Heaven, clothed in FINE LINEN, WHITE AND CLEAN, were following HIM on white horses."

Now, which part of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES' definition and description of the saints are you "confused" about?

Once again,

How can the white steeds be the saints when the saints ride upon the white steeds?

HINT: Your hero and his PERverted claims are the proverbial "wrench in the gears," and the reason for yours and your brethren's "convoluted" explanations and "confusion," all of which makes perfect sense....to you and your [confused] brethren.

November 8, 2004

The Lord of Hosts created the armies which are in heaven before the seventh day of creation.

1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Again in Deuteronomy chapter 4

4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:

4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heave

So now the question.

How can the hosts of heaven be the saints, being they were created by God before the seventh day, being that the saints did not exist at that time????

anonymous · November 8, 2004

The Lord of Hosts created the armies which are in heaven before the seventh day of creation.

1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Again in Deuteronomy chapter 4

4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:

4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heave

So now the question.

How can the hosts of heaven be the saints, being they were created by God before the seventh day, being that the saints did not exist at that time????

Proverbs 26:4 instructs us:

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself."

Apostle Paul tells us that UNbelievers actually know the TRUTH about THE LORD GOD, but they suppress that TRUTH in unrighteousness. That is, they know "of" THE LORD GOD, but because they do NOT want to submit to HIM, they run from HIM and suppress their knowledge of HIM. (Romans 1:18-21)

The Fool

The fool is "unteachable" (Proverbs 10:8).

The fool "despises instruction" (Proverbs 15:5).

"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes" (Proverbs 12:15).

"He that trusts in his own heart is a fool" (Proverbs 28:26).

A fool cannot think of himself as mistaken (Proverbs 17:10). He judges matters according to his own standards of TRUTH and RIGHT, and thus, his own thoughts always turn out in the long run to be, to his own mind, correct.

"The fool beareth himself insolently and is confident" (Proverbs 14:16), and therefore "he utters his own mind" (Proverbs 29:11).

In actuality, this person is dull, stubborn, boorish, obstinate and stupid. He professes himself to be wise, but from the opening of his mouth it is clear that he is (in the SCRIPTURAL sense) a fool. His only wisdom would consist in keeping silent (Proverbs 17:28).

"The heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness" (Proverbs 12:23), and the fool flaunts his folly (Proverbs 13:16). He eats up folly unreflectingly (Proverbs 15:14), pours it out (Proverbs 15:2), and returns to it like a dog to his vomit (Proverbs 26:11).

He is so in love with his folly and so dedicated to its preservation that "It is better for a man to meet a bear robbed of her whelps, than a fool in his folly" (Proverbs 17:12).

The fool does NOT want to find the TRUTH; he only wants to be self-justified in his own imaginations. While he may appear to be objective, "A fool hath no delight in understanding, but only that his heart may reveal itself" (Proverbs 18:2).

Because he is committed to his own imaginations and will go to any length to guard them, he will NOT depart from evil (Proverbs 13:19), and thus, all his "knowledgeable talk" reveals nothing but perverse and lying lips (Proverbs 10:18; 19:1).

In speaking he is blinded to the TRUTH that, "A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are a snare of his soul" (Proverbs 18:7).

He shall not endure the judgment of THE LORD GOD (Psalm 5:5).

Prophet · November 8, 2004

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself."

Fourvetta's "folly" has been responded to with more "folly."

November 9, 2004

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself."
Fourvetta's "folly" has been responded to with more "folly."

Prophet,

Thank you for your "insight" with respect to Proverbs.

November 9, 2004

Prophet,

You appear to have a better "grip" on fourvetta's "logic" than other CHRISTians on this forum.

Would you be willing to answer the question fourvetta seems to be having difficulty with?

How can the white steeds be the saints (fourvetta's conclusion) if the saints ride UPON the white steeds?

November 9, 2004

Christ said this about calling someone a fool.

Matthew 5

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou FOOL, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Never the less, I forgive you. I actually consider it a compliment anyways. We are fools for Christs sake.

Apostle Paul comments on fools?

1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe, Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

4:10 We are fools for Christ`s sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain

Moses wrote the first five books of the bible, including the scriptures in Genesis 2: 1 & 2 and Deuteronomy 4: 15-19

2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Do you consider Moses a fool also?

For he said, that the hosts of heaven and earth were created before the seventh day.

Main Entry: host

Pronunciation: 'hOst

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin hostis,

1 : ARMY

2 : a very large number : MULTITUDE

November 9, 2004

2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Do you consider Moses a fool also?

For he said, that the hosts of heaven and earth were created before the seventh day.

Main Entry: host

Pronunciation: 'hOst

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin hostis,

1 : ARMY

2 : a very large number : MULTITUDE

The issue here is "context". When it is written -

And beware, lest you lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them... (Deuteronomy 4:19)

The context of "all the host of heaven" is NOT "army". The "host of heaven" refers to those things in the heavens that were created by God, which can be seen by mankind (key words - "lift up your EYES to heaven and SEE"). The context of this Scripture refers to the worship of the stars and planets, things which can be seen by the naked human eye. The context does not refer to an invisible "army" created by God to wage war in heaven.

In Deuteronomy 17:1-6, the words "heavenly host" refer to the stars and planets which became the object of worship among the pagans. Evidence for the worship of an invisible "army" (heavenly host) waging war someplace in heaven is nonexistent among ancient pagan civilizations. Artifacts of objects worshipped by the pagans have consistently been something which the pagans could see visibly (heavenly host) and identify with, and have nothing to do with worshipping a celestial "army" of some kind.

In 1 Kings 22:19, the context of the words "host of heaven" refers to the "angels" who abide in heaven together with God the Father. The same thing goes for the term "heavenly host" in Luke 2:13. This term is exactly the same as what is used in other passages to describe the planets and the stars, but the context of these Scriptures refers to angels, not "army".

So now the question.

How can the hosts of heaven be the saints, being they were created by God before the seventh day, being that the saints did not exist at that time????

Just as the term "host of heaven" does not exclusively refer to "armies" in the Bible, the context of the term "armies" does not exclusively refer to the "heavenly host" that was created by God.

The "saints" (the bride in Revelation 19:7-8) are specifically referred to as the "armies" in Revelation 19:14, dressed in fine linen, white and clean (Revelation 19:7-8), who follow the One called Faithful and True (Jesus Christ) waging war in righteousness (Revelation 19:11). In Revelation 19:19, these saints are referred to as Christ's "army".

The foolishness of the heretic is perhaps most obvious when attempt is made to purposefully misapply and twist Scripture in order to make what is written in the Bible conform to his/her heresy.

November 9, 2004

fourvetta,

you quote the Bible when you rebuke others on this forum and you dare quote the scriptures about calling a brother a "fool"....

you no more believe the Bible is the true word of God than the man in the moon! you only believe the Bible if you can adapt it to the S&L teachings, otherwise you can always claim the Bible has been tampered with by the catholics or any other "nee-nash" group you care to accuse...

you no more believe anonymous to be your "brother" than your American neighbor!

(you are an articulate politician, when the need arises)

you are no more a "believer in God alone for salvation" than the Mormon who needs Joseph like you need Maxim

Jesus' teachings are okay with you as long as you can add your own rules (actually Maxim's rules) that circumvent Jesus' teachings: here's one for example: Jesus came to save sinners -- all of them -- and he did not cast anyone out who wanted Him -- that's okay with you but none of "those" sinners are allowed in your "svyatoy" church because your bottom line is that you are better than, cleaner than, holier than, any other so-called "Christians"....

if that isn't true, prove me wrong: answer Seeking's questions about Jesus....or can you?

Hmmmmm, I've heard of your type......God is great, as long as He is made in YOUR image and not the God of the Bible who teaches us from His word that ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT AND THAT GOD WILL NOT SHARE HIS GLORY WITH ANOTHER AND THAT HE LOVES THE WORLD SO THAT ANYONE--not just New Israel Molokans--CAN BE SAVED BY BELIEVING THAT JESUS IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE.

oh, fourvetta! you continually stay in your unbelief because of stubborn cultural pride and you have been tricked by Satan to believe Maxim is your mediator instead of the one and only......Jesus.

take heed "sinok" -- vremyah mahlah astayotsa!

November 10, 2004

The context of "all the host of heaven" is NOT "army". The "host of heaven" refers to those things in the heavens that were created by God, which can be seen by mankind (key words - "lift up your EYES to heaven and SEE"). The context of this Scripture refers to the worship of the stars and planets, things which can be seen by the naked human eye. The context does not refer to an invisible "army" created by God to wage war in heaven.

In Deuteronomy 17:1-6, the words "heavenly host" refer to the stars and planets which became the object of worship among the pagans. Evidence for the worship of an invisible "army" (heavenly host) waging war someplace in heaven is nonexistent among ancient pagan civilizations. Artifacts of objects worshipped by the pagans have consistently been something which the pagans could see visibly (heavenly host) and identify with, and have nothing to do with worshipping a celestial "army" of some kind.

In 1 Kings 22:19, the context of the words "host of heaven" refers to the "angels" who abide in heaven together with God the Father. The same thing goes for the term "heavenly host" in Luke 2:13. This term is exactly the same as what is used in other passages to describe the planets and the stars, but the context of these Scriptures refers to angels, not "army".

We do know that Pagans worship the angels and make icons of their image.

It appears that you do not understand the Kingdom of Heaven.

Christ said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it was My Servants would come and fight."

Heavenly Host refers to the heavenly armies that are NOT visible. Not of things visible, such as the sun, moon and the stars.

In 1 Kings 22:19, the context of the words "host of heaven" refers to the "angels" who abide in heaven together with God the Father. The same thing goes for the term "heavenly host" in Luke 2:13. This term is exactly the same as what is used in other passages to describe the planets and the stars, but the context of these Scriptures refers to angels, not "army".

Agreed, heavenly host or army in context refers to angels.

Thank you. Exactly what I am trying to say.

2 Kings

7:3 And there were four leprous men at the entering in of the gate: and they said one to another, Why sit we here until we die?

7:4 If we say, We will enter into the city, then the famine is in the city, and we shall die there: and if we sit still here, we die also. Now therefore come, and let us fall unto the host of the Syrians: if they save us alive, we shall live; and if they kill us, we shall but die.

7:5 And they rose up in the twilight, to go unto the camp of the Syrians: and when they were come to the uttermost part of the camp of Syria, behold, there was no man there.

7:6 For the Lord had made the host of the Syrians to hear a noise of chariots, and a noise of horses, even the noise of a great host: and they said one to another, Lo, the king of Israel hath hired against us the kings of the Hittites, and the kings of the Egyptians, to come upon us.

7:7 Wherefore they arose and fled in the twilight, and left their tents, and their horses, and their asses, even the camp as it was, and fled for their life

Same as in Revelations chapter 9

9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

So now we have it. Heavenly Host or Armies in context refers to Angels.

Come on now. Its not that hard to understand. Must I spell it out for you?

November 10, 2004

Dear reading along,

You might as well give it up. The man doesn't want to understand. That is why the descriptions of the fool quoted by Anonymous (from Proverbs) are so appropriate.

Fourvetta stated:

Posted on Nov 8 2004, 12:20 AM
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord of Hosts created the armies which are in heaven before the seventh day of creation.

Fourvetta doesn't "want" to get it that the armies of angels in heaven that he is referring to, from the Old Testament, are not the same "armies" who are the saints/bride in Revelation 19:14 and Revelation 19:19.

The Lord created "man" before the seventh day of creation, just like He created the armies of angels in heaven. The armies of the "saints" are the souls of those who comprise the bride of Christ.

These saints were "created" when God designed mankind with the miracle of life, which is known as "propagation". He created this "life" before the seventh day of creation, but these saints do not go on to become part of the Christ's "army" in heaven until after their life on earth is finished.

You pointed out to Fourvetta:

The issue here is "context". When it is written -

And beware, lest you lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them... (Deuteronomy 4:19)

Fourvetta doesn't "want" to get it that "all the host of heaven" in this passage, in context, does NOT refer to "angels", nor does it refer to "armies", not does it refer to any other tangent, wherever fourvetta might care to wander.

What you have pointed out is very clear. In context, "the heavenly host" in this Scripture refers to the sun and the moon and the stars. It is not that hard to understand.

However, you are dealing with fourvetta here, as well as others like him who are similarly deceived, and it is obvious that even when you spell it out, he doesn't have it within himself to understand.

Autumn Leaves

November 10, 2004

Autumn Leaves....

Fourvetta has "Makcim's spirit" (the same one Makcim was influenced by).....he CANNOT discern the things of God since that would require the indwelling presence of God the Holy Spirit!

Those in our brotherhood who are possessed by the same spirit that Makcim was inspired by do not believe that the Bible is the final authority when discerning prophecies, revelations, doctrines, teachings, etc.; they do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh (he's some kinda deity but they don't know how to explain it); they do not believe that any other group which claims the name "Christian" is their "spiritual relative" because they are somehow "separately special" -- as Makcim says, "....only the Jumpers and Leapers will inherit the kingdom...."; they DO BELIEVE that Makcim is all that he claims to be...."their god" since they are the "faithful" to whom Makcim is purportedly speaking.

Keep preaching brother/sister, since not all readers have their hearts hardened to God's teaching.....some will hear the word, believe, and be saved!

anonymous · November 10, 2004

So now we have it. Heavenly Host or Armies in context refers to Angels.

fourvetta,

If the armies of Heaven, following JESUS on white horses in Revelation 19:14 are the angels, why are they riding ON the saints (your conclusion that the white steeds are the saints)?

In other words, what is the "purpose" and "sense" of the angels riding ON the saints?

November 11, 2004

Fourvetta doesn't "want" to get it that the armies of angels in heaven that he is referring to, from the Old Testament, are not the same "armies" who are the saints/bride in Revelation 19:14 and Revelation 19:19.

The Lord created "man" before the seventh day of creation, just like He created the armies of angels in heaven. The armies of the "saints" are the souls of those who comprise the bride of Christ.

These saints were "created" when God designed mankind with the miracle of life, which is known as "propagation". He created this "life" before the seventh day of creation, but these saints do not go on to become part of the Christ's "army" in heaven until after their life on earth is finished.

God is God of the living and not of the dead.

If the armies of Heaven, following JESUS on white horses in Revelation 19:14 are the angels, why are they riding ON the saints (your conclusion that the white steeds are the saints)?

In other words, what is the "purpose" and "sense" of the angels riding ON the saints?

The Word of God shall be become flesh and be made manifest in men.

Actually I and the other readers want to hear your side of the Second Coming.

The "Rapture" thread is up and going. Let the readers compare the two accounts.

November 11, 2004

God is God of the living and not of the dead.

According to what is written in the Bible, the bride/saints ARE "the living".

John 11:25-26 -

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies;

and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die.

Do you believe this?"

Anonymous presents a very appropriate reminder -

Proverbs 26:4 instructs us,

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself."

The Fool

The fool is "unteachable" (Proverbs 10:8).

The fool "despises instruction" (Proverbs 15:5).

"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes" (Proverbs 12:15).

A fool cannot think of himself as mistaken (Proverbs 17:10).

"The fool beareth himself insolently and is confident" (Proverbs 14:16),

and therefore "he utters his own mind" (Proverbs 29:11).

"The heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness" (Proverbs 12:23),

and the fool flaunts his folly (Proverbs 13:16).

He eats up folly unreflectingly (Proverbs 15:14), pours it out (Proverbs 15:2),

and returns to it like a dog to his vomit (Proverbs 26:11).

He is so in love with his folly and so dedicated to its preservation that

"It is better for a man to meet a bear robbed of her whelps, than a fool in his folly"

(Proverbs 17:12).

While he may appear to be objective, "A fool hath no delight in understanding,

but only that his heart may reveal itself" (Proverbs 18:2).

Regarding -

Actually I and the other readers want to hear your side of the Second Coming.

If you ask me, the readers would first like to hear fourvetta's answers to the questions Anakainosis and Anonymous have repeatedly asked, about Rudometkin and his white horse theory.

It's getting pretty embarrassing the amount of times fourvetta has avoided giving answer to Seeking Truth, as he continues to evade the questions about Who is Jesus, etc.

anonymous · November 11, 2004

TESTING, TESTING, TESTING.

anonymous · November 11, 2004

If the armies of Heaven, following JESUS on white horses in Revelation 19:14 are the angels, why are they riding ON the saints (your conclusion that the white steeds are the saints)?

In other words, what is the "purpose" and "sense" of the angels riding ON the saints?

The Word of God shall be become flesh and be made manifest in men.

fourvetta,

Let us first "complete" this discussion before going onto another (Rapture), shall we?

One more time.

The armies of Heaven are the angels. (Your conclusion.)

The white steeds are the saints. (Your conclusion.)

Question to you:

What is the "purpose" and "sense" of the angels riding on the saints?

In other words, WHY are the angels riding on the saints?

Your answer:

"The Word of God shall be become flesh and be made manifest in men."

1) Where (book, chapter, and verse) is the verbatim quote, "The Word of God shall become flesh and be made manifest in men," found?

2) How does the statement, "The Word of God shall become flesh and be made manifest in men," answer the question, WHY are the angels riding on the saints?

Prophet · November 11, 2004

If the armies of Heaven, following JESUS on white horses in Revelation 19:14 are the angels, why are they riding ON the saints (your conclusion that the white steeds are the saints)?

In other words, what is the "purpose" and "sense" of the angels riding ON the saints?

The Word of God shall be become flesh and be made manifest in men.

fourvetta,

Let us first "complete" this discussion before going onto another (Rapture), shall we?

One more time.

The armies of Heaven are the angels. (Your conclusion.)

The white steeds are the saints. (Your conclusion.)

Question to you:

What is the "purpose" and "sense" of the angels riding on the saints?

In other words, WHY are the angels riding on the saints?

Your answer:

"The Word of God shall be become flesh and be made manifest in men."

1) Where (book, chapter, and verse) is the verbatim quote, "The Word of God shall become flesh and be made manifest in men," found?

2) How does the statement, "The Word of God shall become flesh and be made manifest in men," answer the question, WHY are the angels riding on the saints?

Maybe its time for anonymous to stop asking questions and start answering her own. Then maybe fourvetta will interject his thoughts.

coffee · November 12, 2004

Prophet,

Maybe its time for anonymous to stop asking questions and start answering her own. Then maybe fourvetta will interject his thoughts.

It is obvious that fourvetta has no problem "interjecting" his thoughts, which he does freely and quite often. The "problem" is that he avoids giving answer to specific questions which others ask of him, more often than not by going off on tangents, hoping to take attention off of the question(s) he is attempting to evade.

The other evasion method that fourvetta regularly uses is when he resorts to his rendition of "beatnik" jargon, which "could" or might not "mean" something, provided it is able to be "explained", which fourvetta never does. This tactic is common among most pseudo-Christian heretics who want to convey an "image", in order to make it appear like he/she is on a "spiritual level" that is "over the heads" of everyone else, Christian or otherwise.

coffee

Prophet · November 12, 2004

Prophet,

Maybe its time for anonymous to stop asking questions and start answering her own. Then maybe fourvetta will interject his thoughts.

It is obvious that fourvetta has no problem "interjecting" his thoughts, which he does freely and quite often. The "problem" is that he avoids giving answer to specific questions which others ask of him, more often than not by going off on tangents, hoping to take attention off of the question(s) he is attempting to evade.

The other evasion method that fourvetta regularly uses is when he resorts to his rendition of "beatnik" jargon, which "could" or might not "mean" something, provided it is able to be "explained", which fourvetta never does. This tactic is common among most pseudo-Christian heretics who want to convey an "image", in order to make it appear like he/she is on a "spiritual level" that is "over the heads" of everyone else, Christian or otherwise.

coffee

Hello Coffee nice to hear from you.

Fourvetta is certainly is an interesting individual and I don't believe I have ever seen his style anywhere.

He picks and chooses how to answer questions and when he throws in his "beetnick" style it can get frustrating to understand.

Still there are subjects and questions that are thown at him which seem to never get answered by either side. Just a lot of "what do think it means" and then the post trials off into another subject.

If a question is asked, I would like to see an answer, again by either side.

Revelations is an interesting book and there are things that I do not understand and would very much like to hear ideas, regardless of who it is.

Good day

November 12, 2004

If a question is asked, I would like to see an answer, again by either side.

Revelations is an interesting book and there are things that I do not understand and would very much like to hear ideas, regardless of who it is.

On that note I will answer the question.

If the armies of Heaven, following JESUS on white horses in Revelation 19:14 are the angels, why are they riding ON the saints (your conclusion that the white steeds are the saints)?

In other words, what is the "purpose" and "sense" of the angels riding ON the saints?

Psalm

104:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

The Lord is clothed with light as with a garment. Just as the Woman is clothed in the Sun, that is to say, the radiance of the Holy Spirit.

He maketh the clouds his chariot:

Revelation

1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Lord comes with His Saints.

As the scriptures said, "You are the Temple of the living God. The Spirit of God dwells within you. I shall be their God and they shall be My people. The Tabernacle of God is with men."

He maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

The Lord makes His angels into spirits, who are clothed in clean and white linen, which are the righteous acts of the saints. These spirits sit upon the white steeds who are true worshipers and fulfillers of the will of God in Spirit and in truth.

Galations

5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

5:24 And they that are Christ`s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The Battle of Armageddon.

16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The demons also are made into spirits, who sit upon their thrones. Who everywhere fulfill the will of the devil their father.

5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now can we have your interpretation?

anonymous · November 13, 2004

He maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

The Lord makes His angels into spirits, who are clothed in clean and white linen, which are the righteous acts of the saints. These spirits sit upon the white steeds who are true worshipers and fulfillers of the will of God in Spirit and in truth.

fourvetta,

And who is THE LAMB'S bride, who "has made herself ready. And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints" (Revelation 19:7b-8)?

Prophet · November 14, 2004

He maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

The Lord makes His angels into spirits, who are clothed in clean and white linen, which are the righteous acts of the saints. These spirits sit upon the white steeds who are true worshipers and fulfillers of the will of God in Spirit and in truth.

fourvetta,

And who is THE LAMB'S bride, who "has made herself ready. And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints" (Revelation 19:7b-8)?

Maybe Anonymous needs to stop asking questions and start answering her own

November 14, 2004

For clarity, I thought I'd summarize Fourvetta's answer, to follow his thought process.

1. The Lord is clothed with light as with a garment.

2. Just as the Woman is clothed in the Sun, that is to say, the radiance of the Holy Spirit.

3. He maketh the clouds his chariot:

4. The Lord comes with His Saints.

5. As the scriptures said, "You are the Temple of the living God. The Spirit of God dwells within you. I shall be their God and they shall be My people. The Tabernacle of God is with men."

6. He maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

7. The Lord makes His angels into spirits, who are clothed in clean and white linen, which are the righteous acts of the saints.

8. These spirits sit upon the white steeds who are true worshipers and fulfillers of the will of God in Spirit and in truth.

9. The demons also are made into spirits, who sit upon their thrones. Who everywhere fulfill the will of the devil their father.

Fourvetta begins all of this with his statement:

On that note I will answer the question.

It might be me, but I thought Prophet and Coffee were talking about the questions that Fourvetta had evaded, when he wandered off onto other tangents, in order to avoid giving answer.

Fourvetta, you remind me of George Samarin the Preacher; you like to avoid the questions asked and you go off on tangents.

fourvetta writes,

We are not saying that MGR is Christ in this text, but He is the white horse upon whom Christ sits.

Fourvetta,

What is your scriptural proof for your proposition?

How do you know that is true?

Anakainosis has asked the same question more than once.

fourvetta writes,

We are not saying that MGR is Christ in this text, but He is the white horse upon whom Christ sits.

again Fourvetta,

What is your scriptural proof for your proposition?

How do you know that is true?

What is your scriptural basis to prove that?

How did you test the spirit to verify its truth?

Come on fourvetta, don`t ignore my last post!

If you can`t answer it, just admit it.

Just say, ˜it`s too deep and esoteric for me to put in plain words.`

Or you can say, ˜It is written, in the scriptures¦` and give the plain evidence that supports your and your god`s (Maxim King of Spirits) proposition, i.e. Maxim is the white horse.

This is what I thought Prophet and Coffee were talking about. There are other questions too, and I can`t remember which threads all of them are in, but one question I asked had to do with "pillar".

fourvetta,

Re:

Christ said that He that overcomes, or is victorious, or conqueors will be a Pillar in the Temple of God, upon whom Christ will write the Name of God and the City of God, the New Jerusalem and His New Name. Rev. 3:12

Here you (fourvetta) say "a Pillar".

Question. Who is the Pillar in the Temple?

Now you (fourvetta) have suddenly changed to "the Pillar".

You mean to say that you believe Rudometkin is by some special design the one and only pillar in the temple of God?

Galatians 2:9

"James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars..."

I'd still like to know how you transition from where the Bible speaks about "a pillar" in the Temple of God (as in one of many) to your statement about "the pillar" (as in Rudometkin supposedly being the one and only).

Another question I had, has to do with Fourvetta's explanation about how he believes Jesus can take the scroll out of the right hand of Him Who is sitting on the throne, if as Fourvetta says, Jesus is the One Who is seated on the throne.

From Revelation 5:6-7:

"...in the midst of the throne...stood a Lamb...

Then He (the Lamb) came and took the scroll out of the right hand of HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE."

I'd also like to hear your explanation about how Jesus as the Lamb of God can come and take the scroll out of the right hand of Him Who is seated on the throne, if, as you say, Jesus Christ is the One already sitting on the throne as the Alpha and the Omega?

I thought these were the questions Fourvetta was supposed to be anwering. Prophet (or anyone else), if any of you understand what Fourvetta is saying, could you help explain it? Maybe another woman's perspective would be good.

I have to admilt that I'm just as confused now about what he believes, as before. Maybe that's why Anonymous asks Fourvetta so many questions?

Thank you,

Autumn Leaves

seeking_truth_1 · November 14, 2004

We have been attempting to "pin down" forvetta beliefs and here is what we have

1) Who is Jesus? Is He a man or God in physical form?

2) How do you, forvetta get to Heaven? By being molokan or by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross?

3) Can your non-molokan neighbor get to Heaven? If so, how?

Is Maxim subject to Christ?
Is Maxim equal to Christ?

Who is Jesus? Is He a man? - forvetta's belief - NO

(Is He) God in physical form? - forvetta's belief - NO

How do you, forvetta get to Heaven? By being molokan...? - forvetta's belief - NO

OR

(How do you, forvetta get to Heaven?) by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross? - forvetta's belief - NO

Can you non molokan neighbor get to Heaven? - forvetta's belief - NO

Is Maxim subject to Christ? - forvetta's belief - NO

Is Maxim equal to Christ? - forvetta's belief “ NO

What we can draw from this is that forvetta believes:

Jesus is more than a man but not God in physical form

The pro-MGR group are the "true" believers and are superior to "regular" molokans

Salvation by acceptance of Jesus` sacrifice on the Cross only is insufficient

Forvetta`s non-molokan neighbors won`t make it to Heaven

Finally

If maxim is not subject to Christ

and

maxim is not equal to Christ

Therefore forvetta believes maxim is greater than Christ

Also from a previous dialing we have also established that forvetta believes

1) Molokans are not Christians

2) Christians are of Satan

3) The Bible is the word of God

4) There is a Heaven

5) Jesus is the Son of God

6) The death of Jesus was sufficient to save all from judgement who put their faith in Christ

7) All are going to die some day

Yes, it's contradictory at many points, but it is what it is

Prophet · November 14, 2004

If a question is asked, I would like to see an answer, again by either side.

Revelations is an interesting book and there are things that I do not understand and would very much like to hear ideas, regardless of who it is.

On that note I will answer the question.

If the armies of Heaven, following JESUS on white horses in Revelation 19:14 are the angels, why are they riding ON the saints (your conclusion that the white steeds are the saints)?

In other words, what is the "purpose" and "sense" of the angels riding ON the saints?

Psalm

104:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

The Lord is clothed with light as with a garment. Just as the Woman is clothed in the Sun, that is to say, the radiance of the Holy Spirit.

He maketh the clouds his chariot:

Revelation

1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Lord comes with His Saints.

As the scriptures said, "You are the Temple of the living God. The Spirit of God dwells within you. I shall be their God and they shall be My people. The Tabernacle of God is with men."

He maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

The Lord makes His angels into spirits, who are clothed in clean and white linen, which are the righteous acts of the saints. These spirits sit upon the white steeds who are true worshipers and fulfillers of the will of God in Spirit and in truth.

Galations

5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

5:24 And they that are Christ`s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The Battle of Armageddon.

16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The demons also are made into spirits, who sit upon their thrones. Who everywhere fulfill the will of the devil their father.

5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now can we have your interpretation?

Fourvetta, at least you have the courtesy to answer. They others only have questions.

Prophet · November 14, 2004

We have been attempting to "pin down" forvetta beliefs and here is what we have

1) Who is Jesus? Is He a man or God in physical form?

2) How do you, forvetta get to Heaven? By being molokan or by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross?

3) Can your non-molokan neighbor get to Heaven? If so, how?

Is Maxim subject to Christ?
Is Maxim equal to Christ?

Who is Jesus? Is He a man? - forvetta's belief - NO

(Is He) God in physical form? - forvetta's belief - NO

How do you, forvetta get to Heaven? By being molokan...? - forvetta's belief - NO

OR

(How do you, forvetta get to Heaven?) by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross? - forvetta's belief - NO

Can you non molokan neighbor get to Heaven? - forvetta's belief - NO

Is Maxim subject to Christ? - forvetta's belief - NO

Is Maxim equal to Christ? - forvetta's belief “ NO

What we can draw from this is that forvetta believes:

Jesus is more than a man but not God in physical form

The pro-MGR group are the "true" believers and are superior to "regular" molokans

Salvation by acceptance of Jesus` sacrifice on the Cross only is insufficient

Forvetta`s non-molokan neighbors won`t make it to Heaven

Finally

If maxim is not subject to Christ

and

maxim is not equal to Christ

Therefore forvetta believes maxim is greater than Christ

Also from a previous dialing we have also established that forvetta believes

1) Molokans are not Christians

2) Christians are of Satan

3) The Bible is the word of God

4) There is a Heaven

5) Jesus is the Son of God

6) The death of Jesus was sufficient to save all from judgement who put their faith in Christ

7) All are going to die some day

Yes, it's contradictory at many points, but it is what it is

Seeking...

Steadfast...

Anonymous...

Noisy gong and a clanging symbol.

Prov 13:3

He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.

KJV

Prophet · November 14, 2004

Reading along...

Regarding your comment...

It's getting pretty embarrassing the amount of times fourvetta has avoided giving answer to Seeking Truth, as he continues to evade the questions about Who is Jesus, etc.

Fourvetta probably will never answer Seeking.

Do not answer a fool according to his folly.

Woman Clothed In The Sun

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