A Different Jesus

[EGK 0]

Concerning Matthew 13. You're are right about the Greek meaning "Sperma", but you have slipped it into the wrong place. That word is in verses 37 and 38, but not found in 39.

The greek word sperma is used several different ways, differently in 37 and 38. Verse 39 the word "sperma" is not found but referred to. Which definition you choose SHOULD best fit the balance of related Scripture.

 

 

Sir you have a concordance and a spirit credibility issue. Establish credibility with the Lord, stop appearing to help church singers who sing praises to a convicted criminal and heretic. By your attendance you support their classes and their place of worship,

 

Abstain from EVERY sort of evil, which includes spevka and any occasional Molokan church attendance.

 

Why do you call Him Lord Lord?

 

Wow. You must lead a sad and angry life. Let me guess, whenever something happens to you, or someone doesn't agree with you, its always everyone elses fault. Lets see if I can figure it out. You deeply believed in the S&L. Put your faith in the elders and what they say. Something happened in your family that the elders turned their backs on you. You received a wake up call. Started reading the S&L differently. And yet some of Maxcims beliefs still linger. You have been hurt and your foundation fell apart. Now rather then build your foundation on the Lord, you have done so on your bitterness and anger. You don't attend any church services, no fellowship, no service to others, probably stay at home feeding your anger and fustration, knowing that you have all the answers. How'd I do?

 

Hence you reacting in such a way over a trivial non-salvational issue. What an interesting thing you have chosen to judge my walk with. But yet you have already judged my walk. It appears you know who I am, and have heard some kind of rumors about me attending a spevka. Another sign of your reaction over this issue. So now if you have any credibility or if my assumptions are incorrect, my number is in the directory, feel free to call and discuss any issues you have with me, just as any credible believer would do. Otherwise I am done discussing such a trivial matter with you, using me to help feed your bitterness and anger even more.

 

 

We must all remember!

 

"All who have been born again of the Spirit (John 3:6) must bear some marks of His seal upon their character." (Ephesians 1:13)

BSF Notes Lesson 17 page 5

 

EGK

[seeking_truth_1 0]

EGK:

 

You are a fool

 

You are not a Christian and yet you feel compelled to comment about another who is contending for the Faith?

 

You are a product of a failed cult and the fruit of that failure is evident in your denial of who Jesus is

 

Check yourself...

 

You have no place to admonish anyone if you are devoid of the Truth and certainly not as a Brother in the Lord

[EGK 0]

EGK:

 

You are a fool

 

You are not a Christian and yet you feel compelled to comment about another who is contending for the Faith?

 

You are a product of a failed cult and the fruit of that failure is evident in your denial of who Jesus is

 

Check yourself...

 

You have no place to admonish anyone if you are devoid of the Truth and certainly not as a Brother in the Lord

 

 

"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 1 Cor 2:18

 

"You have heard that it is was said to the people long ago, "Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, "Raca", is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, "YOU FOOL! will be in danger of the fire of hell. Math 5:22

 

I agree, we all need to constantly check ourselves but it seems you have no mirrors in your house!

You stand convicted by your own words!

 

EGK

[seeking_truth_1 0]

So you'll not deal with the facts as they are presented but will engage in gainsaying?

 

You cite passages as if you know their meaning yet again are proven to be a fool

 

You ARE NOT my brother but a deceiver

 

Your denial of who Jesus Is demonstrates your worldly wisdom and is certainly not of God or from His Word

 

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9 NKJV)

 

You preach ANOTHER Jesus

 

You would not address the other thread yet you would dare chastise another when you are heading for Hell?

 

Here's your chance to explain yourself and be proven not a fool

 

Here's Your Chance

 

By the way...I forgot to mention to others on the forum of your heretical reading choices

 

Check those out here

 

EGK Recommends Lies - Click Here

 

and here too

 

EGK Recommends Lies - Click Here

[EGK 0]

So you'll not deal with the facts as they are presented but will engage in gainsaying?

 

You cite passages as if you know their meaning yet again are proven to be a fool

 

You ARE NOT my brother but a deceiver

 

Your denial of who Jesus Is demonstrates your worldly wisdom and is certainly not of God or from His Word

 

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9 NKJV)

 

You preach ANOTHER Jesus

 

You would not address the other thread yet you would dare chastise another when you are heading for Hell?

 

Here's your chance to explain yourself and be proven not a fool

 

Here's Your Chance

 

By the way...I forgot to mention to others on the forum of your heretical reading choices

 

Check those out here

 

EGK Recommends Lies - Click Here

 

and here too

 

EGK Recommends Lies - Click Here

 

 

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a pharisee and the other a tax collector, The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: "God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted," Luke 18:9-14

 

God Have Mercy On Me A Sinner! Thank you my friend for reminding me how wretched a sinner I am!

 

EGK

[seeking_truth_1 0]

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23 NKJV)

 

The difference is I accept a Biblical Jesus as Lord and Savior

 

His perfect life, death and resurrection are sufficient to pay my sin debt by trusting in His finished work on the Cross

 

You deny who Jesus says He is

You deny the veracity of His Word

 

Your Jesus, like the JW & Mormon Jesus does not save

 

We're not friends

 

So you'll not deal with the facts as they are presented but will engage in gainsaying?

 

You cite passages as if you know their meaning yet again are proven to be a fool

 

You ARE NOT my brother but a deceiver

 

Your denial of who Jesus Is demonstrates your worldly wisdom and is certainly not of God or from His Word

 

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9 NKJV)

 

You preach ANOTHER Jesus

 

You would not address the other thread yet you would dare chastise another when you are heading for Hell?

 

Here's your chance to explain yourself and be proven not a fool

 

Here's Your Chance

 

By the way...I forgot to mention to others on the forum of your heretical reading choices

 

Check those out here

 

EGK Recommends Lies - Click Here

 

and here too

 

EGK Recommends Lies - Click Here

 

 

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a pharisee and the other a tax collector, The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: "God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted," Luke 18:9-14

 

God Have Mercy On Me A Sinner! Thank you my friend for reminding me how wretched a sinner I am!

 

EGK

[seeking_truth_1 0]

You advocate books that deny Jesus as Deity & question Scripture as to it's accuracy

 

I cannot advocate reading either one of those for anyone who considered themselves a Christian

 

You have a non-Christian attempting to deny the Deity of Jesus

 

The second book calls into question the veracity of Scripture

 

These are both earmarks of cults

 

EGK won't deal with the facts brought forth in dialog, but will engage in deceptive practices to get people to be swayed by this garbage

 

Why would EGK advocate reading this junk?

 

Do they agree with the contents?

 

If they do, they ARE NOT my, nor anyone else's Christian brother

 

More so, they are dangerous

 

Review excerpt from Amazon

 

The Gospel narratives may suggest that Jesus was divine, but they do not insist upon it. Hundreds of years after Jesus' death, the Church councils made Jesus' divinity a central tenet of belief among many of his followers. When Jesus Became God: The Epic Fight over Christ's Divinity in the Last Days of Rome by Richard Rubenstein is a narrative history of Christians' early efforts to define Christianity by convening councils and writing creeds. Rubenstein is most interested in the battle between Arius, Presbyter of Alexandria, and Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria. Arius said that Christ did not share God's nature but was the first creature God created. Athanasius said that Christ was fully God. At the Council of Nicea in 325, the Church Fathers came down on Athanasius's side and made Arius's belief a heresy.

 

 

Two excellent and easy to understand books to read, one is about early christian church history written by a Jewish author. The author is a Rhodes scholar from Harvard Law school and is a professor at George Mason University.

The book is, "When Jesus Became God" by Richard E Rubenstein.

 

The second book is the story of how the New Testament bible wording was put together and how the early christian scribes and later professional scribes translated and inserted and misquoted original texts. The author is the Chairman of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

The book is, "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D Ehrman

 

If you have ever been interested in early christianity and it's struggles read these two. For how can you know where you are going unless you know where you have been? These are not feel good books like Tim La Hayes but documented history.

 

EGK

[seeking_truth_1 0]

You advocate books that deny Jesus as Deity and as being a created being & question Scripture as to it's accuracy

 

I cannot advocate reading either one of those for anyone who considered themselves a Christian

 

You have a non-Christian attempting to deny the Deity of Jesus

 

The second book calls into question the veracity of Scripture

 

These are both earmarks of cults

 

EGK won't deal with the facts brought forth in dialog, but will engage in deceptive practices to get people to be swayed by this garbage

 

Why would EGK advocate reading this junk?

 

Do they agree with the contents?

 

If they do, they ARE NOT my, nor anyone else's Christian brother

 

More so, they are dangerous

 

Review excerpt from Amazon

 

The Gospel narratives may suggest that Jesus was divine, but they do not insist upon it. Hundreds of years after Jesus' death, the Church councils made Jesus' divinity a central tenet of belief among many of his followers. When Jesus Became God: The Epic Fight over Christ's Divinity in the Last Days of Rome by Richard Rubenstein is a narrative history of Christians' early efforts to define Christianity by convening councils and writing creeds. Rubenstein is most interested in the battle between Arius, Presbyter of Alexandria, and Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria. Arius said that Christ did not share God's nature but was the first creature God created. Athanasius said that Christ was fully God. At the Council of Nicea in 325, the Church Fathers came down on Athanasius's side and made Arius's belief a heresy.

 

 

Two excellent and easy to understand books to read, one is about early christian church history written by a Jewish author. The author is a Rhodes scholar from Harvard Law school and is a professor at George Mason University.

The book is, "When Jesus Became God" by Richard E Rubenstein.

 

The second book is the story of how the New Testament bible wording was put together and how the early christian scribes and later professional scribes translated and inserted and misquoted original texts. The author is the Chairman of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

The book is, "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D Ehrman

 

If you have ever been interested in early christianity and it's struggles read these two. For how can you know where you are going unless you know where you have been? These are not feel good books like Tim La Hayes but documented history.

 

EGK

[EGK 0]

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23 NKJV)

 

The difference is I accept a Biblical Jesus as Lord and Savior

 

His perfect life, death and resurrection are sufficient to pay my sin debt by trusting in His finished work on the Cross

 

You deny who Jesus says He is

You deny the veracity of His Word

 

Your Jesus, like the JW & Mormon Jesus does not save

 

We're not friends

 

So you'll not deal with the facts as they are presented but will engage in gainsaying?

 

You cite passages as if you know their meaning yet again are proven to be a fool

 

You ARE NOT my brother but a deceiver

 

Your denial of who Jesus Is demonstrates your worldly wisdom and is certainly not of God or from His Word

 

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9 NKJV)

 

You preach ANOTHER Jesus

 

You would not address the other thread yet you would dare chastise another when you are heading for Hell?

 

Here's your chance to explain yourself and be proven not a fool

 

Here's Your Chance

 

By the way...I forgot to mention to others on the forum of your heretical reading choices

 

Check those out here

 

EGK Recommends Lies - Click Here

 

and here too

 

EGK Recommends Lies - Click Here

 

 

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a pharisee and the other a tax collector, The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: "God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted," Luke 18:9-14

 

God Have Mercy On Me A Sinner! Thank you my friend for reminding me how wretched a sinner I am!

 

EGK

 

 

You wrote;

 

"You deny who Jesus says he is.

You deny the veracity of his word."

 

Show me giving Book, Chapter and verse, in the words of Jesus, who he says he is.

 

This has got to be easy for you. But remember, not what others say about who he is but who he (Jesus) says he is.

 

The veracity of his word says he is the Christ (Messiah) the Son of God.

 

EGK

[seeking_truth_1 0]

I wanted to let this sit for a time to allow all to view your words and make sure there is NO DOUBT where you stand

 

Thank you for finally getting honest about your faith

 

Frankly I'm a bit surprised that you still don't know the answer to this after being on this forum for so long

 

I've covered this more that once

 

Here's a link

 

Click Here

 

And Another By Anonymous

 

Click Here

 

You keep asking the same questions and keep getting the same answers

 

Nothing has changed including your eternal destination

 

 

 

 

 

You wrote;

 

"You deny who Jesus says he is.

You deny the veracity of his word."

 

Show me giving Book, Chapter and verse, in the words of Jesus, who he says he is.

 

This has got to be easy for you. But remember, not what others say about who he is but who he (Jesus) says he is.

 

The veracity of his word says he is the Christ (Messiah) the Son of God.

 

EGK

[EGK 0]

I wanted to let this sit for a time to allow all to view your words and make sure there is NO DOUBT where you stand

 

Thank you for finally getting honest about your faith

 

Frankly I'm a bit surprised that you still don't know the answer to this after being on this forum for so long

 

I've covered this more that once

 

Here's a link

 

Click Here

 

And Another By Anonymous

 

Click Here

 

You keep asking the same questions and keep getting the same answers

 

Nothing has changed including your eternal destination

 

 

 

 

 

You wrote;

 

"You deny who Jesus says he is.

You deny the veracity of his word."

 

Show me giving Book, Chapter and verse, in the words of Jesus, who he says he is.

 

This has got to be easy for you. But remember, not what others say about who he is but who he (Jesus) says he is.

 

The veracity of his word says he is the Christ (Messiah) the Son of God.

 

EGK

 

 

Thank You My Friend;

 

But let me leave you with a few biblical facts that you seem always to forget.

 

Jesus never once said he is "God". He said, "I said, I am the Son of God" John 10:36. How can Jesus be God when in fact he says that he himself has a God?

(Matt 27:46; John 20:17; Eph 1:3, 17; 1Peter 1:3 Rev 3:12)

 

The Apostle Paul wrote about God but yet in his epistles never once did he refer to Jesus as God, he always referred to the Father as God.

 

The Apostle Peter knew Jesus pretty well and he said "God" 46 times in his two epistles and never once did he refer to Jesus as "God", it was always to the Father.

 

The Apostle James writes about "God" 17 times but again he never once refers it to Jesus, it is always to the Father.

 

As Peter confessed in the Book of Matthew, Chapter 16:16, "Thou art the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the living God". How come Jesus never corrected him but goes on to state;

"Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but MY FATHER which is in heaven".

 

Then again in John 1:49 Nathanael declares also; "Nathanael answered and said unto him, Rabbi, thou art the SON of God; thou art the King of Israel".

 

Mark opens his epistles also;

"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God".

 

So tell me what is it, is Jesus part of a Godhead or the Son of God? You cannot have it both ways, Jesus is either the unique Son of God, Savior, redeemer, Messiah and coming King as scripture states or a third part of a Greek, Hellenistic, Platonic, divine logos doctrine, which is not even biblical.

 

Do you really know who God is?

 

EGK

[seeking_truth_1 0]

You OBVIOUSLY did not read the post

 

"11 But Moses said to God, "Who [am] I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?"

12 So He said, "I will certainly be with you. And this [shall be] a sign to you that I have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain."

13 Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, [when] I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ˜The God of your fathers has sent me to you,` and they say to me,What [is] His name?` what shall I say to them?"

14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ˜I AM has sent me to you.`"

15 Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ˜The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This [is] My name forever, and this [is] My memorial to all generations.`" (Exodus 3:11-15 NKJV)

 

Who is I AM?

 

"51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

52 Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ˜If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.`

53 "Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?"

54 Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.

55 "Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ˜I do not know Him,` I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.

56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad."

57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John 8:51-59 NKJV)

 

What was an offense that carried the punishment of death by stoning?

 

Remember stoning was a method to exercise judgment in capital offenses such as blasphemy, apostasy, prostitution, adultery, and murder.

 

Which of these did Jesus "commit"?

 

The religious leaders knew EXACTLY what He was claiming

 

I guess what I do not get is the fact that the religious leaders knew exactly what Jesus was stating yet you want to play games

 

"22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon`s porch.

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father`s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father`s hand.

30 I and [my] Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (John 10:22-33 AV)

[anonymous 0]

 

Unitarians/universalists (such as egk) choose to "overlook" thus deny Apostle Paul's confession in his epistle to Titus regarding JESUS:

 

"For the grace of GOD has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, WHO gave HIMSELF for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS own possession who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you." (Titus 2:11-15)

 

And Apostle Peter's confession in his second epistle regarding JESUS:

 

"Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of JESUS CHRIST, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST; may grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of GOD and of JESUS our LORD." (2 Peter 1:1-2)

 

GOD/DEITY can be and is.......three [persons].......THE FATHER, THE SON/WORD/JESUS, THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

The question is --- does egk truly know WHO GOD is??? He really should take Apostle Paul's advice and "examine" himself, whether he be in "the faith." (2 Corinthians 13:5)

 

 

[Guest El Scorcho Grande]

Whoops, gonna have to fall back on "You Can't Trust The Bible", "Too Many Contadictions", "3rd Century Ecumenical", "Constantine", "Great Harlot" Blah Blah Blah. Call FV, he has it down cold.

 

Seriously, how many times do we have to go back to John 8:51-59? How can that be a translation error when it is crystal clear that the Pharisees understood Jesus perfectly. It really comes down to "Is the Bible the word of God, or hacked up propaganda?" If the Bible is truly not to be trusted, then how do you know what the Word of God is? Are you yourself a prophet, or do you rely on others who claim to know the truth like Jim Jones, David Koresh, Joseph Smith, MGR, etc?

[GoodDay 0]

Romans 1 (King James Version)

 

Romans 1

1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

 

2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

[anonymous 0]

 

To make matters worse (for themselves), unitarians/universalists (such as egk) "overlook" thus deny GOD.......THE FATHER'S PERSONal testimony regarding JESUS:

 

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, GOD spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days HE has spoken to us by HIS SON, WHOM HE appointed the heir of all things, through WHOM also HE created the world. HE is the radiance of the glory of GOD and the exact imprint of HIS nature, and HE upholds the universe by the word of HIS power. After making purification for sins, HE sat down at the right hand of THE MAJESTY ON HIGH, having become as much superior to angels as the name HE has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

 

For to which of the angels did GOD ever say, 'YOU are MY SON, today I have begotten YOU'? Or again, 'I will be to HIM a father, and HE shall be to ME a son'? And again, when HE brings the firstborn into the world. HE says, 'Let all GOD'S angels worship HIM.'

 

Of the angels HE says, 'HE makes HIS angels winds, and HIS ministers a flame of fire.' But of THE SON HE says, 'YOUR throne, O GOD, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of YOUR KINGDOM. YOU have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore GOD, YOUR GOD, has anointed YOU with the oil of gladness beyond YOUR companions.' And, 'YOU, LORD, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of YOUR hands; they will perish, but YOU remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe YOU will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But YOU are the same, and YOUR years will have no end.' (Hebrews 1:1-12)

 

THE FATHER is.......GOD/DEITY, and according to THE FATHER'S PERSONal testimony, THE SON is.......GOD/DEITY.

 

It's simple really --- egk can choose to believe GOD.......THE FATHER, or, not. (Obviously from his own personal testimony and unfortunately to his own detriment, egk has chosen the latter.)

 

Oh well....

 

 

 

[LTTBT 0]

So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them.....

 

You have to look no farther than your own being to see that there is 3 different entities, but still are one.

I have a body

I have a spirit

I have a soul

These are 3 distint entities, but they are all still one.

 

We are the proof of the existance and relation of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Unless of course you deny your own existance.

 

[stevepiv 0]

Here are some other Scriptures to consider:

 

Colossians 1: 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

 

Now, we read in:

 

Isaiah 45:

17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD

with an everlasting salvation;

you will never be put to shame or disgraced,

to ages everlasting.

18 For this is what the LORD says—

he who created the heavens,

he is God;

he who fashioned and made the earth,

he founded it;

he did not create it to be empty,

but formed it to be inhabited—

he says:

"I am the LORD,

and there is no other. 19 I have not spoken in secret,

from somewhere in a land of darkness;

I have not said to Jacob's descendants,

'Seek me in vain.'

I, the LORD, speak the truth;

I declare what is right.

 

20 "Gather together and come;

assemble, you fugitives from the nations.

Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood,

who pray to gods that cannot save.

 

21 Declare what is to be, present it—

let them take counsel together.

Who foretold this long ago,

who declared it from the distant past?

Was it not I, the LORD ?

And there is no God apart from me,

a righteous God and a Savior;

there is none but me.

 

22 "Turn to me and be saved,

all you ends of the earth;

for I am God, and there is no other.

 

23 By myself I have sworn,

my mouth has uttered in all integrity

a word that will not be revoked:

Before me every knee will bow;

by me every tongue will swear.

 

 

Philippians 2:

 

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.

 

 

Please read the Scripture from Colossians, Isaiah and Philippians. Colossians 1 testifies Jesus made the Heaven and Earth, Isaiah says in 45:18 "He who created the heaven and earth is God. And, that there is not another Lord, but One.

 

He is a righteous God and Savior. Jesus is Our Savior.

 

I will mark these verses again:

 

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

and

 

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD says—

he who created the heavens,

he is God;

he who fashioned and made the earth,

he founded it;

he did not create it to be empty,

but formed it to be inhabited—

he says:

"I am the LORD,

and there is no other.

 

 

 

 

Here is Scripture that testifies about One Lord, Calling on the name of The Lord and being Saved, and The Name by which we are saved.

 

 

One Lord:

 

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.[/color]

 

 

Calling on the Lord and being saved (also in Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21, Isaiah 28:16):

 

Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

 

The name by which we are saved:

 

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is " 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

[EGK 0]

Unitarians/universalists (such as egk) choose to "overlook" thus deny Apostle Paul's confession in his epistle to Titus regarding JESUS:

 

"For the grace of GOD has appeard, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, WHO gave HIMSELF for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS own possession who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you." (Titus 2:11-15)

 

And Apostle Peter's confession in his second epistle regarding JESUS:

 

"Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of JESUS CHRIST, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST; may grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of GOD and of JESUS our LORD." (2 Peter 1:1-2)

 

GOD/DEITY can be and is.......three [persons].......THE FATHER, THE SON/WORD/JESUS, THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

The question is --- does egk truly know WHO GOD is??? He really should take Apostle Paul's advice and "examine" himself, whether he be in "the faith." (2 Corinthians 13:5)

 

Annonymous;

 

You made my point in your two scriptural references, just look at them;

 

Titus 2-15 says, "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, not our great God Jesus Christ.

 

2 Peter 1:1-2 says,"our God and Savior Jesus Christ, not our God Jesus Christ.

 

You stated, "God/Deity can be and is.....three (persons).....THE FATHER, THE SON/WORD/JESUS, THE HOLY SPIRIT.

All I ask is Book, Chapter and verse, not opinion. Show me from the bible where the trinity doctrine is. Old and New Testaments.

 

Since you believe I do not know who God is, then teach me, give me a biblical definition of "God", what is God?

 

EGK

[LTTBT 0]

Since you believe I do not know who God is, then teach me, give me a biblical definition of "God", what is God?

 

EGK

 

God is not a "what".

 

1st. John 4:16 God is love.

[LTTBT 0]

Since you believe I do not know who God is, then teach me, give me a biblical definition of "God", what is God?

 

EGK

 

 

 

 

God is not a "what".

 

1st. John 4:16 God is love.

1st. John 1:5 God is light

Heb. 12:29 God is a consumming fire

Heb. 3:4 God is the bulider of everything

2 Co. 9:8 God is able to make all grace abound

1 Co. 14:33 God is a God of order

1 Co. 10:13 God is faithful

Romans 16:20 God of peace

Romans 4:17 God is the one who gives life to the dead

Romans 3:29 God is the God of Jews and Gentiles

John 4:24 God is spirit

Luke 20:38 God is the God of the living

Genisis 17:1 God is God almighty

 

and the list goes on and on and on.......

[little koshka 0]

Show me giving Book, Chapter and verse, in the words of Jesus, who he says he is.

 

This has got to be easy for you. But remember, not what others say about who he is but who he (Jesus) says he is.

 

The veracity of his word says he is the Christ (Messiah) the Son of God.

 

EGK

 

Exodus 3:14

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

 

John 1

The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

 

Book, Chapter, and verse:

John 8:58

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

(Note: the words in red in my Bible are the words spoken by Jesus Christ..) So, He (Jesus) says who He is - He is "I am".

What does your Bible say when you turn to the book of John, Chapter 8, verse 58?

 

BSF Notes Lesson 14

Page 9

"The Jewish argument "You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham!"

Jesus' reply "I tell you the truth before Abraham was born, I am." In this last answer Jesus gives the most sublime revelation of His person in respect to His deity. His literal words are "Before Abraham was [became], I am." That is, when Abraham passed from nothingness into existence at the event of his birth, Jesus was already existing as the great I AM of Jewish spiritual history. Already Jesus, with God the Father, was living His personal life of continuous, conscious, timeless existence from the prehistoric ages of eternity. Jesus' statement concerning Himself reminds us of John 1:1, 14. It is one of the most categorical statements concerning His pre-existence and deity that Jesus ever uttered. The words "I am" were connected in the Jewish mind with the peculiar expression in the Old Testament reserved by Lord God for His reveleation to Himself to His people as the unchanging, eternal God (Exodus 3:14; Deuteronomy 32:39, Isaiah 43:10). This term "I AM WHO I AM", is the Lord God's particular term of self-identification."

 

BSF Notes Lesson 3

Page 2

Application

"Belief in these facts concerning the deity of Christ is absolutely basic to Christian faith. With out it, there is no true "saving faith". We are apt to emphasize that Jesus Christ is our Savior, yet He cannot be this unless we first recognize and confess Him as our Lord. (Compare John 8:24, Acts 16:31, and Romans 10:9.) "Lord" in Biblical usage implies diety. In most uses in the New Testament it is the Greek substitute for the Hebrew Old Testament word Yahweh or Jehovah, the ineffable name for God."

 

 

BSF Notes Lesson 15

Page 5:

"Do you and I also also refuse to declare our belief in the truth because we fear the reactions of others who have power to make life uncomfortable for us? We cannot have it both ways. Our actions prove who we fear most - God or man."

Page 6:

Part B. Jesus and the Willfully Blind Pharisees

"the Jews made self-confident statements about Jesus whom they professed to know. The said that they knew Jesus certainly was not the Messiah. These Pharisees refused to be taught, for they themselves professed to be teachers. They refused to see the true light when it shone and thereby lost what little light they already had. This is what the last phrase means, "...now that you claim to see, your guilt remains."

 

John 9

Spiritual Blindness

35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"

36"Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."

37Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."

38Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"

41Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

 

My question for you EGK is, are you going to BSF this year? If your answer is yes, what are you learning?

 

Respectfully, lk

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Very interesting that EGK allegedly attends BSF yet is not doctrinally aligned with the core tenets of Christianity

 

As is stated in the Application section ""Belief in these facts concerning the deity of Christ is absolutely basic to Christian faith. With out it, there is no true "saving faith"."

 

No true saving faith...

 

BSF Notes Lesson 3

Page 2

Application

"Belief in these facts concerning the deity of Christ is absolutely basic to Christian faith. With out it, there is no true "saving faith". We are apt to emphasize that Jesus Christ is our Savior, yet He cannot be this unless we first recognize and confess Him as our Lord. (Compare John 8:24, Acts 16:31, and Romans 10:9.) "Lord" in Biblical usage implies diety. In most uses in the New Testament it is the Greek substitute for the Hebrew Old Testament word Yahweh or Jehovah, the ineffable name for God."

[EGK 0]

Very interesting that EGK allegedly attends BSF yet is not doctrinally aligned with the core tenets of Christianity

 

As is stated in the Application section ""Belief in these facts concerning the deity of Christ is absolutely basic to Christian faith. With out it, there is no true "saving faith"."

 

No true saving faith...

 

Interesting my Friend;

 

Now just one little thing,"Please";

 

Show us all with Book, Chapter and verse what is required to be saved and where it says that you must believe that Jesus is God being a part of it.............

 

EGK

[GoodDay 0]

Very interesting that EGK allegedly attends BSF yet is not doctrinally aligned with the core tenets of Christianity

 

As is stated in the Application section ""Belief in these facts concerning the deity of Christ is absolutely basic to Christian faith. With out it, there is no true "saving faith"."

 

No true saving faith...

 

Interesting my Friend;

 

Now just one little thing,"Please";

 

Show us all with Book, Chapter and verse what is required to be saved and where it says that you must believe that Jesus is God being a part of it.............

 

EGK

 

I believe that Jesus is God.

 

I can only imagine if Jesus came down and directly said "Hello, I am God," what reactions he would have stirred up, even as we see as to how they wanted to kill Him when He said everything else possible. We know He was God by so Much Scripture and how the pharicees reacted etc..

 

But, I once was clueless after being saved a couple of years ago about the "Jesus is God" thing and some would say you cannot be saved if you do not believe this and this is still the cause with many. It will allways be taked about and most likely never a place will be reached by either side in agreement. It's similiar to the rapture. They are issues that cause SO much confusion in a new (NOT EGK) beleiver and as It did with me.

 

EGK really does bring up a good valid question and I too would like to know so I can not make others feel as though they are not my brothers when they really are. I cannot say for sure but the Thief on The Cross may not have known at that moment and the Samaratin woman and the adultress etc..

 

I feel me and EGK are brothers.

 

Paul W. Orloff

[little koshka 0]

Now just one little thing,"Please";

 

Show us all with Book, Chapter and verse what is required to be saved and where it says that you must believe that Jesus is God being a part of it.............

 

EGK

 

Do you believe these words of Jesus Christ?

John 3:16

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

Do you believe these words of Jesus Christ?

John 8:58

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

 

Why is it that you need additional "Book, Chapter, and verse" of what is required? Here is more in red:

 

John 8:31-32

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

 

John 10:7-9

Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a]

 

John 11:25-26

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

 

Jesus said these things, too:

 

Matthew 13:11-23

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

"Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

15For this people's heart has become calloused;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts

and turn, and I would heal them.'[a] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. 18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

 

Matthew 15:3-9

3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8" 'These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

9They worship me in vain;

their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"

 

 

John 1:5

5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

BSF Notes Lesson 3

Page 4

"3. "The darkness has not understood it" John 1:5b

The word translated "understood" can be used in 2 ways.

 

a. To comprehend

"Understood can mean that spiritual darkness cannot comprehend spiritual light. This is true. When we choose to live in darkness and in unbelief (called spiritual death), we cannot comprehend true spiritual light that comes from Christ and is Christ. The "man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14)."

 

My question is, if you are a Christian and profess that you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior, and believe His words when He said this:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life., how can you still be a Christian who professes that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior and not believe His words when He said that He is God when He said this: 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"?

 

The Bible is the Lord's personal message to you. He wants you to hear it.

He clearly states that He is the only way. He clearly states that if we (you, I, and everyone else) deny what He has to say (or deny Him), that we will deny knowing us. It is all there in black and white (and red).

 

Respectfully, lk

 

 

 

[EGK 0]

Very interesting that EGK allegedly attends BSF yet is not doctrinally aligned with the core tenets of Christianity

 

As is stated in the Application section ""Belief in these facts concerning the deity of Christ is absolutely basic to Christian faith. With out it, there is no true "saving faith"."

 

No true saving faith...

 

Interesting my Friend;

 

Now just one little thing,"Please";

 

Show us all with Book, Chapter and verse what is required to be saved and where it says that you must believe that Jesus is God being a part of it.............

 

EGK

 

I believe that Jesus is God.

 

I can only imagine if Jesus came down and directly said "Hello, I am God," what reactions he would have stirred up, even as we see as to how they wanted to kill Him when He said everything else possible. We know He was God by so Much Scripture and how the pharicees reacted etc..

 

But, I once was clueless after being saved a couple of years ago about the "Jesus is God" thing and some would say you cannot be saved if you do not believe this and this is still the cause with many. It will allways be taked about and most likely never a place will be reached by either side in agreement. It's similiar to the rapture. They are issues that cause SO much confusion in a new (NOT EGK) beleiver and as It did with me.

 

EGK really does bring up a good valid question and I too would like to know so I can not make others feel as though they are not my brothers when they really are. I cannot say for sure but the Thief on The Cross may not have known at that moment and the Samaratin woman and the adultress etc..

 

I feel me and EGK are brothers.

 

Paul W. Orloff

 

Paul;

 

You are breath of fresh air in a dusty world. I ask no one to change their beliefs to be the same as mine. I call no one names to try to harm or humiliate and bully them. Believe me that I do a lot of praying to God to give me an open mind to all sides and to touch my heart as to His will. It is only the belief systems that I find on a firm foundation of biblical support that I will accept. We have all been burnt by false dogmas and religiosity in our lives in and out of the Molokan church. Just because some one tells you this is the truth of God or teaches it, does it make it so. I firmly and truth fully try very hard to search out the scriptural truth of the matter, both historically and biblically. This may step on a few time honored traditions of some but it is for me the correct thing to do. I can right now give you 100 verses from the bible that are contrary to a trinitarian belief system and just as easily give you many that might support it as has been seen written here. But is it wrong to discuss it as brother to brother, I feel it is not. If I make some one think and dig in their bible to prove me wrong, I praise God for it. It shows they too have an interest in the revealed truth of our God.

 

Only a sinner seeking the truth and not in name only!!

 

EGK

 

[little koshka 0]

EGK,

I was able to provide "Book, Chapter, and verse" for your first and second question.

You quoted some BSF lesson notes, and so did I.

I gather you are attending the current study (since you quoted from the notes of the most current lesson - please correct me if I am wrong).

If you are attending this study of John, by now we have all recognized that what the purpose of the book is.

In lesson and lecture, the message becomes more clear.

You have asked more than once to provide "Book, Chapter, and verse" on the issue of Christ's deity.

Have you asked these same questions of your discussion leader or the person who gives the lectures?

Could you answer this question?

Why did or would Jesus make that statement (John 8:58) 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"?

Thanks, lk

 

You also made mention that there are 100 verses that are contrary to a trinitarian belief system in the Bible, would you be able to share some of them?

And yes, I do agree with you that this is a good thing regarding the extra study or investigation into Scripture this discussion is bringing about.

[EGK 0]

EGK,

I was able to provide "Book, Chapter, and verse" for your first and second question.

You quoted some BSF lesson notes, and so did I.

I gather you are attending the current study (since you quoted from the notes of the most current lesson - please correct me if I am wrong).

If you are attending this study of John, by now we have all recognized that what the purpose of the book is.

In lesson and lecture, the message becomes more clear.

You have asked more than once to provide "Book, Chapter, and verse" on the issue of Christ's deity.

Have you asked these same questions of your discussion leader or the person who gives the lectures?

Could you answer this question?

Why did or would Jesus make that statement (John 8:58) 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"?

Thanks, lk

 

You also made mention that there are 100 verses that are contrary to a trinitarian belief system in the Bible, would you be able to share some of them?

And yes, I do agree with you that this is a good thing regarding the extra study or investigation into Scripture this discussion is bringing about.

 

 

Hi Little Koshka;

 

I would greatly like to discuss this with you and "Yes" I am attending BSF this year. This is actually my second time studying the Book of John at BSF. I have a great group of men and from quite a good mixture of different churches ranging from Catholics, Methodist, Lutheran and Reformed. The hardest part of our discussion period is that we are always late for the lecture due to the different views expressed. But the greatest thing of all is the feeling of christian love between all of us even with so many different views being expressed.

 

I thank you for picking only one verse to discuss because otherwise it makes the task too time consuming for the time available to me with family and work. I will get to it as soon as I get back home for I am out of town at the present.

 

Yes, I will submit in a post later verses as you have asked for.

 

I would like to give you a little homework also, a verse which will come up later in the year in John 17: 3, actually the whole thought goes from John 17:1 to 5, but just 17:3 will do.

This is a prayer of Jesus to his Father;

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come, glorify your son, that your son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. NOW THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE: THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST, WHOM YOU HAVE SENT. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

 

EGK

[little koshka 0]

Hi Little Koshka;

 

I would greatly like to discuss this with you and "Yes" I am attending BSF this year. This is actually my second time studying the Book of John at BSF. I have a great group of men and from quite a good mixture of different churches ranging from Catholics, Methodist, Lutheran and Reformed. The hardest part of our discussion period is that we are always late for the lecture due to the different views expressed. But the greatest thing of all is the feeling of christian love between all of us even with so many different views being expressed.

 

I thank you for picking only one verse to discuss because otherwise it makes the task too time consuming for the time available to me with family and work. I will get to it as soon as I get back home for I am out of town at the present.

 

Yes, I will submit in a post later verses as you have asked for.

 

I would like to give you a little homework also, a verse which will come up later in the year in John 17: 3, actually the whole thought goes from John 17:1 to 5, but just 17:3 will do.

This is a prayer of Jesus to his Father;

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come, glorify your son, that your son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. NOW THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE: THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST, WHOM YOU HAVE SENT. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

 

EGK

Thanks,

I am glad to hear that you are attending BSF this year - this is a great study.

I hope you (and others) are considering attending next year's new study Isaiah! I am definetely looking forward to that!

I have not forgotten about the above mentioned homework (John 17:3) - I will read the passage and see what sort of references I can make. I would like to discuss this also when these verses come up on the lesson.

lk

[GoodDay 0]

Very interesting that EGK allegedly attends BSF yet is not doctrinally aligned with the core tenets of Christianity

 

As is stated in the Application section ""Belief in these facts concerning the deity of Christ is absolutely basic to Christian faith. With out it, there is no true "saving faith"."

 

No true saving faith...

 

Interesting my Friend;

 

Now just one little thing,"Please";

 

Show us all with Book, Chapter and verse what is required to be saved and where it says that you must believe that Jesus is God being a part of it.............

 

EGK

 

I believe that Jesus is God.

 

I can only imagine if Jesus came down and directly said "Hello, I am God," what reactions he would have stirred up, even as we see as to how they wanted to kill Him when He said everything else possible. We know He was God by so Much Scripture and how the pharicees reacted etc..

 

But, I once was clueless after being saved a couple of years ago about the "Jesus is God" thing and some would say you cannot be saved if you do not believe this and this is still the cause with many. It will allways be taked about and most likely never a place will be reached by either side in agreement. It's similiar to the rapture. They are issues that cause SO much confusion in a new (NOT EGK) beleiver and as It did with me.

 

EGK really does bring up a good valid question and I too would like to know so I can not make others feel as though they are not my brothers when they really are. I cannot say for sure but the Thief on The Cross may not have known at that moment and the Samaratin woman and the adultress etc..

 

I feel me and EGK are brothers.

 

Paul W. Orloff

 

Paul;

 

You are breath of fresh air in a dusty world. I ask no one to change their beliefs to be the same as mine. I call no one names to try to harm or humiliate and bully them. Believe me that I do a lot of praying to God to give me an open mind to all sides and to touch my heart as to His will. It is only the belief systems that I find on a firm foundation of biblical support that I will accept. We have all been burnt by false dogmas and religiosity in our lives in and out of the Molokan church. Just because some one tells you this is the truth of God or teaches it, does it make it so. I firmly and truth fully try very hard to search out the scriptural truth of the matter, both historically and biblically. This may step on a few time honored traditions of some but it is for me the correct thing to do. I can right now give you 100 verses from the bible that are contrary to a trinitarian belief system and just as easily give you many that might support it as has been seen written here. But is it wrong to discuss it as brother to brother, I feel it is not. If I make some one think and dig in their bible to prove me wrong, I praise God for it. It shows they too have an interest in the revealed truth of our God.

 

Only a sinner seeking the truth and not in name only!!

 

EGK

 

I did not see this until now EGK. Sometimes it is hard to keep up and a reply may go passed unanswered and I apologize.

 

I enjoy reading your posts and It does make me dig a bit deeper into Scripture even if it is a little at a time. I can tell a few of us are not trying to change each others minds on here. If we didn't have a love for Jesus Christ, we would not even be having some of these conversations on here. Many times things flare up on account of little tiny Non-Salvational issues and we all know thats useless. It is nice to be able to discuss things on here. I too am attending BSF. It is my first time and I love it! We all have so much to share on here as we follow our Lord daily in our walks. Someday you and I and some of the others on here can sit down as the brothers and sisters that we are and be face to face an enjoy some coffee and good fellowship.

 

I look forward to seeing what you post during this Study of John for all of us to learn and grow from. I enjoy reading Little Koshka's posts on this Gospel as well. I will try to add a bit of my insight as well as I continue to search the Scriptures daily as you and Lk do in a lovingly manner.

 

With out Love, all is useless-

 

Your Brother in Christ,

 

Paul W. Orloff

 

P.s Nice to see you posting Little Koshka :-)

 

[stevepiv 0]

Very interesting that EGK allegedly attends BSF yet is not doctrinally aligned with the core tenets of Christianity

 

As is stated in the Application section ""Belief in these facts concerning the deity of Christ is absolutely basic to Christian faith. With out it, there is no true "saving faith"."

 

No true saving faith...

 

Interesting my Friend;

 

Now just one little thing,"Please";

 

Show us all with Book, Chapter and verse what is required to be saved and where it says that you must believe that Jesus is God being a part of it.............

 

EGK

 

I believe that Jesus is God.

 

I can only imagine if Jesus came down and directly said "Hello, I am God," what reactions he would have stirred up, even as we see as to how they wanted to kill Him when He said everything else possible. We know He was God by so Much Scripture and how the pharicees reacted etc..

 

But, I once was clueless after being saved a couple of years ago about the "Jesus is God" thing and some would say you cannot be saved if you do not believe this and this is still the cause with many. It will allways be taked about and most likely never a place will be reached by either side in agreement. It's similiar to the rapture. They are issues that cause SO much confusion in a new (NOT EGK) beleiver and as It did with me.

 

EGK really does bring up a good valid question and I too would like to know so I can not make others feel as though they are not my brothers when they really are. I cannot say for sure but the Thief on The Cross may not have known at that moment and the Samaratin woman and the adultress etc..

 

I feel me and EGK are brothers.

 

Paul W. Orloff

 

Paul;

 

You are breath of fresh air in a dusty world. I ask no one to change their beliefs to be the same as mine. I call no one names to try to harm or humiliate and bully them. Believe me that I do a lot of praying to God to give me an open mind to all sides and to touch my heart as to His will. It is only the belief systems that I find on a firm foundation of biblical support that I will accept. We have all been burnt by false dogmas and religiosity in our lives in and out of the Molokan church. Just because some one tells you this is the truth of God or teaches it, does it make it so. I firmly and truth fully try very hard to search out the scriptural truth of the matter, both historically and biblically. This may step on a few time honored traditions of some but it is for me the correct thing to do. I can right now give you 100 verses from the bible that are contrary to a trinitarian belief system and just as easily give you many that might support it as has been seen written here. But is it wrong to discuss it as brother to brother, I feel it is not. If I make some one think and dig in their bible to prove me wrong, I praise God for it. It shows they too have an interest in the revealed truth of our God.

 

Only a sinner seeking the truth and not in name only!!

 

EGK

 

I did not see this until now EGK. Sometimes it is hard to keep up and a reply may go passed unanswered and I apologize.

 

I enjoy reading your posts and It does make me dig a bit deeper into Scripture even if it is a little at a time. I can tell a few of us are not trying to change each others minds on here. If we didn't have a love for Jesus Christ, we would not even be having some of these conversations on here. Many times things flare up on account of little tiny Non-Salvational issues and we all know thats useless. It is nice to be able to discuss things on here. I too am attending BSF. It is my first time and I love it! We all have so much to share on here as we follow our Lord daily in our walks. Someday you and I and some of the others on here can sit down as the brothers and sisters that we are and be face to face an enjoy some coffee and good fellowship.

 

I look forward to seeing what you post during this Study of John for all of us to learn and grow from. I enjoy reading Little Koshka's posts on this Gospel as well. I will try to add a bit of my insight as well as I continue to search the Scriptures daily as you and Lk do in a lovingly manner.

 

With out Love, all is useless-

 

Your Brother in Christ,

 

Paul W. Orloff

 

P.s Nice to see you posting Little Koshka :-)

 

Good Post Paul & Yes Little Koshka good to see you posting!!!

 

[EGK 0]

Hi Little Koshka;

 

I would greatly like to discuss this with you and "Yes" I am attending BSF this year. This is actually my second time studying the Book of John at BSF. I have a great group of men and from quite a good mixture of different churches ranging from Catholics, Methodist, Lutheran and Reformed. The hardest part of our discussion period is that we are always late for the lecture due to the different views expressed. But the greatest thing of all is the feeling of christian love between all of us even with so many different views being expressed.

 

I thank you for picking only one verse to discuss because otherwise it makes the task too time consuming for the time available to me with family and work. I will get to it as soon as I get back home for I am out of town at the present.

 

Yes, I will submit in a post later verses as you have asked for.

 

I would like to give you a little homework also, a verse which will come up later in the year in John 17: 3, actually the whole thought goes from John 17:1 to 5, but just 17:3 will do.

This is a prayer of Jesus to his Father;

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come, glorify your son, that your son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. NOW THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE: THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST, WHOM YOU HAVE SENT. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

 

EGK

Thanks,

I am glad to hear that you are attending BSF this year - this is a great study.

I hope you (and others) are considering attending next year's new study Isaiah! I am definetely looking forward to that!

I have not forgotten about the above mentioned homework (John 17:3) - I will read the passage and see what sort of references I can make. I would like to discuss this also when these verses come up on the lesson.

lk

 

 

Little Koshka;

 

Thanks for being patient with me. I will return soon to continue our discussion.

 

EGK

[EGK 0]

EGK,

I was able to provide "Book, Chapter, and verse" for your first and second question.

You quoted some BSF lesson notes, and so did I.

I gather you are attending the current study (since you quoted from the notes of the most current lesson - please correct me if I am wrong).

If you are attending this study of John, by now we have all recognized that what the purpose of the book is.

In lesson and lecture, the message becomes more clear.

You have asked more than once to provide "Book, Chapter, and verse" on the issue of Christ's deity.

Have you asked these same questions of your discussion leader or the person who gives the lectures?

Could you answer this question?

Why did or would Jesus make that statement (John 8:58) 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"?

Thanks, lk

 

You also made mention that there are 100 verses that are contrary to a trinitarian belief system in the Bible, would you be able to share some of them?

And yes, I do agree with you that this is a good thing regarding the extra study or investigation into Scripture this discussion is bringing about.

 

 

Little Koshka;

 

In most bible translations of John 8:58 we all read that Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am." the trinitarian view is that by using the words "I AM", that Jesus is claiming to be God. There is the claim then that this is the same as in Exodus 3:14. But really if you study the two you will find that the two differ greatly. What Jesus clearly and plainly always said throughout scripture is, "My Father is greater than I am" (John 14:28) In searching what the apostles and Paul taught you will find that they state clearly that,"the head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3)

 

When you look at the whole conversation and what was going on preceding John 8:58 you can get a clear picture here. The Jews were emphasizing, after Jesus told them they needed to be set free from the bondage of sin, that they never were in bondage, that Abraham was their great patriarch. In reply Jesus told them that therefore they should do the works of Abraham. When Jesus told them: "Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad," they replied that he was not yet 50 years old, and how can he therefore have seen Abraham, who had died over 2,000 years before? He then let them know that his existence was not limited to the years he was spending on earth. Jesus told them that his exsistence was unbroken from eons before Abraham's day, and was unbroken ever after. That is why he could truly say: "Before Abraham was, I am." If he said he "was", he would be saying that he exsisted, but no longer does exsist. Why the use of "I am"? It is because it is a Hebrew idiom and is used to express a non-terminated exsistence.

 

It is claimed that Jesus is claiming to be ,"God the Son". But in all reality and in scripture Jesus only referrs to himself as the Son of God, but never to being,"God the Son". (Matthew 16: 16, 17; John 3:16-18; 5: 25-27; 9:35-37; 10:36; 11:4) He is the son of the Most High God; he is never presented as the Most High God. Jesus also frequently referred to the Most High God as his Father. (Matthew 12:50; 16:17; 18:10,19; 20:23; 26:39,42; John 5:17; 6:32; 17:1,3) The Jews greatly objected to this, though some of them expressed the same thought for themselves (John 8:41) and wrongly claimed that saying God was his Father he was a sinner (John 9:24)"making himself equal with God". John 5:18

 

As to why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus, the Jews had been for a long time seeking to kill him. (Matthew 12:14; Mark 3:6; Luke 6:11; John 5:18; 7:1-9) Remember Jesus said this was because he had exposed their works as evil. (John 7:7) He also indicates that they were jealous of him when he asks them for which good work were they seeking to kill him. (John 10:32)

 

What it finally comes down to what is being said here is that Jesus is responding to a question: "You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham? Thus Jesus is answering them here saying that God's created "firstborn"," Jesus, had exsisted long before Abraham was born, and that he is still in exsistence. (Colosians 1:15-20)

 

EGK

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Interesting that EGK willingly misses this...

 

13 For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son,

14 who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins.

15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.

He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,

16 for through him God created everything

in the heavenly realms and on earth.

He made the things we can see

and the things we can’t see—

such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.

Everything was created through him and for him.

17 He existed before anything else,

and he holds all creation together. (Colossians 1:13-17)

 

 

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

In most bible translations of John 8:58 we all read that Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am." the trinitarian view is that by using the words "I AM", that Jesus is claiming to be God. There is the claim then that this is the same as in Exodus 3:14. But really if you study the two you will find that the two differ greatly.

EGK

Hey EGK,

Trying to grasp who God is is not always easy.

Sometimes I think I got it down, but when I spend some time dwelling on it, my mind starts to mix it all up.

 

Here is something I found interesting...

prin Abraam genesthai, egoµ eimi, John 8:58

Before Abraham was made or born, I am. John 8:58 NASB

 

By Jesus saying in greek, ego eimi, He was not only saying that He is eternal.

He is also referring to the holy name of God, Yahweh.

 

Ego eimi is written in Greek like this - ἐγώ εἰμί

 

Here is the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) of Exodus 3: 13-14

13 And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them?

14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

In verse 14 God tells Moses His name is I am THE BEING, or I am WHO I AM.

 

Look at it in the Greek translation of the Old Testament. (I underlined the word used for Gods name, just in case you can't read Greek)

14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

 

So the Name of God, Yahweh, is translated to Ego eimi ( ἐγώ εἰμί) in the Septuagint.

 

I am by no means a scholar.

And I don't believe it is necessary to go into this much detail just to find out who God really is.

But it is interesting.

Regardless, a personal relationship is really what salvation is.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

[EGK 0]

Interesting that EGK willingly misses this...

 

13 For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son,

14 who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins.

15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.

He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,

16 for through him God created everything

in the heavenly realms and on earth.

He made the things we can see

and the things we can’t see—

such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.

Everything was created through him and for him.

17 He existed before anything else,

and he holds all creation together. (Colossians 1:13-17)

 

 

Seeking;

 

Left something out here my friend;

 

12 Giving thanks unto the Father which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

KJV

 

Do you see in lines 12 and 13 "the Father which hath made" and in 13, "into the kingdom of his dear son". This clearly states a division of the two with the Father being preeminent and being the creator.

Take a look at line 15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." Is Jesus "God" or the image of the invisible God, big difference here. He also states that Jesus is the firstborn of every creature, when was God born? This all fits and corresponds very well to John 1: 1-3, where God presents His purpose for His new creation, which was eventually realized in the person of Jesus the Christ.

 

EGK

[EGK 0]

In most bible translations of John 8:58 we all read that Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am." the trinitarian view is that by using the words "I AM", that Jesus is claiming to be God. There is the claim then that this is the same as in Exodus 3:14. But really if you study the two you will find that the two differ greatly.

EGK

Hey EGK,

Trying to grasp who God is is not always easy.

Sometimes I think I got it down, but when I spend some time dwelling on it, my mind starts to mix it all up.

 

Here is something I found interesting...

prin Abraam genesthai, egoµ eimi, John 8:58

Before Abraham was made or born, I am. John 8:58 NASB

 

By Jesus saying in greek, ego eimi, He was not only saying that He is eternal.

He is also referring to the holy name of God, Yahweh.

 

Ego eimi is written in Greek like this - ἐγώ εἰμί

 

Here is the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) of Exodus 3: 13-14

13 And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them?

14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

In verse 14 God tells Moses His name is I am THE BEING, or I am WHO I AM.

 

Look at it in the Greek translation of the Old Testament. (I underlined the word used for Gods name, just in case you can't read Greek)

14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

 

So the Name of God, Yahweh, is translated to Ego eimi ( ἐγώ εἰμί) in the Septuagint.

 

I am by no means a scholar.

And I don't believe it is necessary to go into this much detail just to find out who God really is.

But it is interesting.

Regardless, a personal relationship is really what salvation is.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

Kevin;

 

A few thoughts:

If Jesus is using a title in John 8:58, as compared to Exodus 3:14, then the apostle John is guilty of writing a sentence lacking a predicate, hence, an incomplete sentence.

 

Jesus used "I Am" a few times in the Book of John. (John 4:26; 6:35, 41 48, 51; 8:18, 24, 28) in these he is just stating, "It is I". On other occasions he uses it as a designation and a description. (John 6:20; 18: 5,6,8. John 10:7, 9, John 10:11-14, John 11:25; 14:6, John 15:1,5. In all of these there is no indication that implies that Jesus is using the name EHYEH in Exodus, so as to make himself Yahweh, his own God that sent him.

 

It is interesting but I totally agree with you, it is not necessary to go into such detail and it is our personal relationship with our Lord that is where our salvation is. God will guide us.

 

EGK

 

 

[seeking_truth_1 0]

EGK

 

Please understand you are not my friend so cease the attempts to patronize me

 

You continue denying the Deity of Jesus and asking the same questions and I will continue to tell you your Jesus cannot save

 

I believe we're at an impasse

[Guest El Scorcho Grande]

I'm thinking John, was less concerned with sentence structure, and more concerned with accurately quoting the exact words that Jesus spoke. The Bible is not a novel, and I think you know that, are you coming at this study with an open heart?

 

The Parisees who were there understood Jesus' meaning exactly. Yes they were looking to get rid of Jesus, but why? If Jesus was saying he was a man that was ancient enough to predate Abraham, he would have been written off as crazy and there would have been no need to get rid of him. The Pharisees problem was that Jesus made sense, and knew the Law better than they did. They knew that Jesus lined up pretty well with scripture, and it made them mad, you see Jesus came to replace them, man didn't need anyone to make sacrifices to cover there sins anymore, Jesus' sacrifice covered all forever.

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

In most bible translations of John 8:58 we all read that Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am." the trinitarian view is that by using the words "I AM", that Jesus is claiming to be God. There is the claim then that this is the same as in Exodus 3:14. But really if you study the two you will find that the two differ greatly.

EGK

Hey EGK,

Trying to grasp who God is is not always easy.

Sometimes I think I got it down, but when I spend some time dwelling on it, my mind starts to mix it all up.

 

Here is something I found interesting...

prin Abraam genesthai, egoµ eimi, John 8:58

Before Abraham was made or born, I am. John 8:58 NASB

 

By Jesus saying in greek, ego eimi, He was not only saying that He is eternal.

He is also referring to the holy name of God, Yahweh.

 

Ego eimi is written in Greek like this - ἐγώ εἰμί

 

Here is the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) of Exodus 3: 13-14

13 And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them?

14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

In verse 14 God tells Moses His name is I am THE BEING, or I am WHO I AM.

 

Look at it in the Greek translation of the Old Testament. (I underlined the word used for Gods name, just in case you can't read Greek)

14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

 

So the Name of God, Yahweh, is translated to Ego eimi ( ἐγώ εἰμί) in the Septuagint.

 

I am by no means a scholar.

And I don't believe it is necessary to go into this much detail just to find out who God really is.

But it is interesting.

Regardless, a personal relationship is really what salvation is.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

Kevin;

 

A few thoughts:

If Jesus is using a title in John 8:58, as compared to Exodus 3:14, then the apostle John is guilty of writing a sentence lacking a predicate, hence, an incomplete sentence.

 

Jesus used "I Am" a few times in the Book of John. (John 4:26; 6:35, 41 48, 51; 8:18, 24, 28) in these he is just stating, "It is I". On other occasions he uses it as a designation and a description. (John 6:20; 18: 5,6,8. John 10:7, 9, John 10:11-14, John 11:25; 14:6, John 15:1,5. In all of these there is no indication that implies that Jesus is using the name EHYEH in Exodus, so as to make himself Yahweh, his own God that sent him.

 

It is interesting but I totally agree with you, it is not necessary to go into such detail and it is our personal relationship with our Lord that is where our salvation is. God will guide us.

 

EGK

EGK,

 

So we do agree on one thing, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is what is really important.

 

I find that even though I got saved two years ago, I am still a work in progress.

A big thing for me is prayer and surrender.

 

Even though my salvation is secure in the perfect Savior, I find myself the one who still messes things up.

But even if I mess things up, Jesus is faithful to keep me, and guard me, and hold me in His presence.

This is not blasphemy or taking advantage of His grace, it is just the reality of God's

unconditional love.

Prayer (talking and listening) is the primary way that we can continue to abide in Him.

To be able to talk with Jesus, to communicate with the "God with us" is all I need.

Everything else is extra.

 

Surrender is letting Jesus increase, and letting myself decrease.

 

 

One more note on the "I AM" statement of Jesus.

He did not say "Yahweh", because "Yahweh" is a Hebrew word.

In fact, "Yahweh" is not in the Septuagint.

The translators of the Septuagint replaced the word Yahweh with the english equivalent "I AM".

 

When the Scribes copied the scriptures in the Hebrew, every time they got to the name of God, they would wash their bodies, then write Gods name, then immediately wash again.

That is the amount of respect/fear they had for Gods name (Yahweh).

So it got to the point that people did not say "Yahweh" anymore.

So the translators of the Septuagint replaced the name of "Yahweh" with another Greek word.

But this greek word was clearly know to be referring to the name "Yahweh"

And when Jesus claimed that He was/is Yahweh, this enraged the people.

 

It can be a very complicated issue, but I am sure if somebody with a little better understanding of the Hebrew language explained it, some of these issues would be cleared up.

 

But however complicated it may seem, it is very clear with evidence to prove it, that Jesus did in fact claim that He is "Yahweh".

 

But because we don't speak Hebrew and Greek, it can be somewhat complicated.

 

And like some others mentioned, head knowledge won't help clear things up. Only a real life experience with the savior will change a mans heart.

 

You/we all must decide then, who is "Yahweh"?

 

The good news(gospel) says that it is Jesus!

This is good news indeed!

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

 

 

[EGK 0]

EGK

 

Please understand you are not my friend so cease the attempts to patronize me

 

You continue denying the Deity of Jesus and asking the same questions and I will continue to tell you your Jesus cannot save

 

I believe we're at an impasse

 

 

Seeking;

 

I am not trying to patronize you by calling you "my friend". It is just a term I have used in my dealings with people from various ethnic backgrounds. It is just a way to break the ice in a conversation. I use it as a mexican national would in a conversation calling you "Amigo". If this offends you I will try to cease doing it.

 

I challenge you again as I have in the past, dig out the scriptures which deal with the issue of "Salvation" and show me where it is a requirement to believe Jesus is "God The Son".

 

The thing is Seeking, I truly do respect you for your strength and convictions and love of our Lord Jesus Christ. You have brought many out of apathy and complacency and made us all dig into the word of God. All I ask is for people to read and think and to let the Holy Spirit within be the teacher and not the teachings of forefathers, councils, synods and theologians.

 

I leave you with a few verses:

 

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31

 

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God".1 John 4:15

 

"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 John 5:5

 

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself". 1 John 5:10

 

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John

5:13

 

 

EGK

[stevepiv 0]

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31

 

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God".1 John 4:15

 

"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 John 5:5

 

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself". 1 John 5:10

 

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John

5:13

 

 

Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses,

but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.

 

 

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is " 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

 

 

 

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

and

 

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD says—

he who created the heavens,

he is God;

he who fashioned and made the earth,

he founded it;

he did not create it to be empty,

but formed it to be inhabited—

he says:

"I am the LORD,

and there is no other.

 

 

and

 

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

 

 

Calling on the Lord and being saved (also in Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21, Isaiah 28:16):

 

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

 

[GoodDay 0]

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God".1 John 4:15

 

EGK,

To the Verse above. How does God dwelleth in a person? Have you ever thought about, God the Holy Spirit that starts to indwell in a person once they are saved may be what that means?

 

Have a great week!

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

EGK

 

[EGK 0]

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31

 

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God".1 John 4:15

 

"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 John 5:5

 

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself". 1 John 5:10

 

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John

5:13

 

 

Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses,

but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.

 

 

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is " 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

 

 

 

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

and

 

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD says—

he who created the heavens,

he is God;

he who fashioned and made the earth,

he founded it;

he did not create it to be empty,

but formed it to be inhabited—

he says:

"I am the LORD,

and there is no other.

 

 

and

 

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

 

 

Calling on the Lord and being saved (also in Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21, Isaiah 28:16):

 

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

Hi Steve;

 

I totally agree that our salvation comes through our Lord Jesus Christ and through his name only. I am not exactly sure of the point that you are trying to make here because you do not state it. I assume the point you are making is because all of these verses use the term "Lord" that they are all the same.

Did you happen to look up the term "Lord"?

I looked it up in my "Pictorial Bible Dictionary by Zondervan Press, authored by Merrill C Tenny.

 

LORD : "The rendering in the KJV for a variety of Hebrew and Greek terms. It is applied to both men and God and expresses varied degrees of honor, dignity and majesty. The prevailing Greek term rendered "Lord" is kurios, master or owner, one who has power or authority over some property, animals or persons. It may be used as a term of respect. It is frequently used of God as well as Jesus as Messiah who by his resurrection and ascension was exalted to lordship (Acts 2:36; Phil 2 9-11; Rom 1:4; 14:8. At times it is difficult to determine whether by"the Lord" the Father or the Son is meant, etc.

 

I have been called many names for trying to find out the truth of the use of words in the bible text. It is like the use of the word "Word" (Logos John 1:1). Does it mean "Jesus" or is it the Greek equivalent of "speak or to say" and its root of "leg", meaning to gather or arrange. Does the words used match the theme of the author of the text and do they harmonize with the rest of the text written. Does the word match the Hebrew definition of the word being used or the Greek and the time of it being used.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that you just can not assume that a word is always used with the same meaning in mind throughout the Bible. The bible is made up of too many books by different authors with the use of different languages and in different writing styles and forms at different times and then in the end being translated by men of another age into another language for us to understand. I guess that is why the call it Bible Study.

 

Thanks Steve!

EGK

[EGK 0]

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God".1 John 4:15

 

EGK,

To the Verse above. How does God dwelleth in a person? Have you ever thought about, God the Holy Spirit that starts to indwell in a person once they are saved may be what that means?

 

Have a great week!

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

EGK

 

Paul;

 

We can drink a few pots of coffee going over this, thats for sure. Have you ever thought of this in relationship to the word "incarnation", the Latin for becoming flesh or becoming human? If God dwells in you do you also become a god?

 

God be with you;

EGK

[seeking_truth_1 0]

EGK:

 

You are a wolf and wholly dishonest

 

You say to steve " I am not exactly sure of the point that you are trying to make here because you do not state it" yet it's painfully clear what he is stating

 

You then go on to call into question the veracity of Scripture yet again by saying how can the Bible be accurately interpreted when Scripture is clear there is only ONE author

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Timothy 3:16

 

7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. Psalm 19:7-8

 

You then go on to say you accept Jesus as "savior" and yet deny His Deity

 

How can just a man save you?

 

If He's not God in physical form his sacrifice is imperfect as a man or less than God

 

You then go on to say you don't know what "The Word" means yet it's yet again painfully clear from the context Who not what the Word is

 

 

 

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31

 

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God".1 John 4:15

 

"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 John 5:5

 

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself". 1 John 5:10

 

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John

5:13

 

 

Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses,

but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.

 

 

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is " 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

 

 

 

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

and

 

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD says—

he who created the heavens,

he is God;

he who fashioned and made the earth,

he founded it;

he did not create it to be empty,

but formed it to be inhabited—

he says:

"I am the LORD,

and there is no other.

 

 

and

 

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

 

 

Calling on the Lord and being saved (also in Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21, Isaiah 28:16):

 

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

Hi Steve;

 

I totally agree that our salvation comes through our Lord Jesus Christ and through his name only. I am not exactly sure of the point that you are trying to make here because you do not state it. I assume the point you are making is because all of these verses use the term "Lord" that they are all the same.

Did you happen to look up the term "Lord"?

I looked it up in my "Pictorial Bible Dictionary by Zondervan Press, authored by Merrill C Tenny.

 

LORD : "The rendering in the KJV for a variety of Hebrew and Greek terms. It is applied to both men and God and expresses varied degrees of honor, dignity and majesty. The prevailing Greek term rendered "Lord" is kurios, master or owner, one who has power or authority over some property, animals or persons. It may be used as a term of respect. It is frequently used of God as well as Jesus as Messiah who by his resurrection and ascension was exalted to lordship (Acts 2:36; Phil 2 9-11; Rom 1:4; 14:8. At times it is difficult to determine whether by"the Lord" the Father or the Son is meant, etc.

 

I have been called many names for trying to find out the truth of the use of words in the bible text. It is like the use of the word "Word" (Logos John 1:1). Does it mean "Jesus" or is it the Greek equivalent of "speak or to say" and its root of "leg", meaning to gather or arrange. Does the words used match the theme of the author of the text and do they harmonize with the rest of the text written. Does the word match the Hebrew definition of the word being used or the Greek and the time of it being used.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that you just can not assume that a word is always used with the same meaning in mind throughout the Bible. The bible is made up of too many books by different authors with the use of different languages and in different writing styles and forms at different times and then in the end being translated by men of another age into another language for us to understand. I guess that is why the call it Bible Study.

 

Thanks Steve!

EGK

[EGK 0]

EGK:

 

You are a wolf and wholly dishonest

 

You say to steve " I am not exactly sure of the point that you are trying to make here because you do not state it" yet it's painfully clear what he is stating

 

You then go on to call into question the veracity of Scripture yet again by saying how can the Bible be accurately interpreted when Scripture is clear there is only ONE author

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Timothy 3:16

 

 

You then go on to say you accept Jesus as "savior" and yet deny His Deity

 

How can just a man save you?

 

If he is not God in physical form his sacrifice is imperfect as a man or less than God

 

 

 

 

Seeking ;

 

When the Apostle Paul wrote this epistle to to Timothy what scripture was he talking about? The New Testament books had not been gathered together to create a New Testament. So Paul must be telling Timothy to use Hebrew scripture as his guide and inspiration. There is only One INSPIRATION but many authors.

 

You ask, "How can just a man save you?", but how do the God inspired scriptures answer this:

 

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" Heb 2:9

 

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22

 

Can you not see that the death of one who is deity could not redeem fallen men, for we are not deity. It took the sacrificial death of a sinless man. God cannot die, he is immortal! Man is the one who has sinned, not God. Man must pay for the sins of man, not God for the sins of man, that just does not make any sense.

 

"Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE the ONLY wise GOD, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen 1 Timothy 1:17

 

"Who only hath IMMORTALITY dwelling in light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen" 1 Timothy 6: 16

 

EGK

 

 

[Guest Guest]

EGK...I feel that many times our comments and views are not accepted very well which result into name calling. But just to let you know I appreciate your perspective on this issue, it is something I tend to lean towards.

 

 

 

 

name='EGK' date='Feb 19 2010, 07:50 PM' post='492

Seeking ;

 

When the Apostle Paul wrote this epistle to to Timothy what scripture was he talking about? The New Testament books had not been gathered together to create a New Testament. So Paul must be telling Timothy to use Hebrew scripture as his guide and inspiration. There is only One INSPIRATION but many authors.

 

You ask, "How can just a man save you?", but how do the God inspired scriptures answer this:

 

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" Heb 2:9

 

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22

 

Can you not see that the death of one who is deity could not redeem fallen men, for we are not deity. It took the sacrificial death of a sinless man. God cannot die, he is immortal! Man is the one who has sinned, not God. Man must pay for the sins of man, not God for the sins of man, that just does not make any sense.

 

"Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE the ONLY wise GOD, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen 1 Timothy 1:17

 

"Who only hath IMMORTALITY dwelling in light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen" 1 Timothy 6: 16

 

EGK

 

[seeking_truth_1 0]

A Wolf?

 

That's not a "name" that's an identifier

 

"Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves

(Matthew 7:15)

 

EGK is propagating lies

 

EGK...I feel that many times our comments and views are not accepted very well which result into name calling. But just to let you know I appreciate your perspective on this issue, it is something I tend to lean towards.

 

 

 

 

name='EGK' date='Feb 19 2010, 07:50 PM' post='492

Seeking ;

 

When the Apostle Paul wrote this epistle to to Timothy what scripture was he talking about? The New Testament books had not been gathered together to create a New Testament. So Paul must be telling Timothy to use Hebrew scripture as his guide and inspiration. There is only One INSPIRATION but many authors.

 

You ask, "How can just a man save you?", but how do the God inspired scriptures answer this:

 

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" Heb 2:9

 

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22

 

Can you not see that the death of one who is deity could not redeem fallen men, for we are not deity. It took the sacrificial death of a sinless man. God cannot die, he is immortal! Man is the one who has sinned, not God. Man must pay for the sins of man, not God for the sins of man, that just does not make any sense.

 

"Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE the ONLY wise GOD, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen 1 Timothy 1:17

 

"Who only hath IMMORTALITY dwelling in light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen" 1 Timothy 6: 16

 

EGK

 

[EGK 0]

A Wolf?

 

That's not a "name" that's an identifier

 

"Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves

(Matthew 7:15)

 

EGK is propagating lies

 

 

Is that what I am propagating?

 

I challenge you again, give the verses where Jesus Christ is openly called God in the New Testament and I will give you the ones where he is openly called a man.

 

Are you up to it or full of hot air?

 

EGK

 

 

EGK...I feel that many times our comments and views are not accepted very well which result into name calling. But just to let you know I appreciate your perspective on this issue, it is something I tend to lean towards.

 

 

 

 

name='EGK' date='Feb 19 2010, 07:50 PM' post='492

Seeking ;

 

When the Apostle Paul wrote this epistle to to Timothy what scripture was he talking about? The New Testament books had not been gathered together to create a New Testament. So Paul must be telling Timothy to use Hebrew scripture as his guide and inspiration. There is only One INSPIRATION but many authors.

 

You ask, "How can just a man save you?", but how do the God inspired scriptures answer this:

 

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" Heb 2:9

 

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". 1 Corinthians 15: 21-22

 

Can you not see that the death of one who is deity could not redeem fallen men, for we are not deity. It took the sacrificial death of a sinless man. God cannot die, he is immortal! Man is the one who has sinned, not God. Man must pay for the sins of man, not God for the sins of man, that just does not make any sense.

 

"Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE the ONLY wise GOD, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen 1 Timothy 1:17

 

"Who only hath IMMORTALITY dwelling in light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen" 1 Timothy 6: 16

 

EGK

 

 

[lastinline 0]

'EGK' date='Feb 19 2010, 07:50 PM' post='492

Can you not see that the death of one who is deity could not redeem fallen men, for we are not deity. It took the sacrificial death of a sinless man. God cannot die, he is immortal! Man is the one who has sinned, not God. Man must pay for the sins of man, not God for the sins of man, that just does not make any sense.

 

In the world of EGK, God is told, you just don't make any sense.

 

Apostle John informs us of a Truth, that cannot be disputed. After informing all of just who is Jesus Christ by proclaiming that the Word was God. He tells us all a Truth about people who refuse to accept the full and complete Lordship of Jesus Christ of Nazareth over their lives, "the light shines in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

Sadly, EGK's inability to accept the full and complete Lordship of Jesus the Christ, that is proclaimed by the Holy Scriptures is the reason he is unable to stand in His Light. His desire is to make God into an image that he desires, keeps him in the darkness.

 

Here EGK states: "I challenge you again, give the verses where Jesus Christ is openly called God in the New Testament and I will give you the ones where he is openly called a man." "Are you up to it or full of hot air"?

 

Being in darkness, is only thing that makes any sense, in EGK's case, for the Holy Scriptures are clear that in the ministry of Christ while on earth, He was fully a man in a man's body. EGK seems to admit that there are Scriptures that declares that Jesus is called God, but has greater enjoyment in declaring him merely a man. Puzzling, no not for someone who chooses to stay in the dark.

 

Who actually is your Lord is sum and substance of the problem. God, is continually addressed in the Old Testament as the Lord and Jesus is continually declared as Lord in the New Testament. Christ declares that if you had know the Father God, then surely you know Me for I am in the Father and the Father is in Me.

 

 

lastinline (where the Lordship of Jesus, is fully appreciated & no hot air here)

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Good catch last in line

 

This quote says it all

 

Can you not see that the death of one who is deity could not redeem fallen men, for we are not deity. It took the sacrificial death of a sinless man. God cannot die, he is immortal! Man is the one who has sinned, not God. Man must pay for the sins of man, not God for the sins of man, that just does not make any sense.

 

During these dialogs with EGK there would be times my head went numb from hitting it against the wall in utter disbelief of what EGK was saying and then not saying and then denying and then affirming

 

It was almost like having a dialog with fv

[lastinline 0]

Good catch last in line

 

This quote says it all

 

Can you not see that the death of one who is deity could not redeem fallen men, for we are not deity. It took the sacrificial death of a sinless man. God cannot die, he is immortal! Man is the one who has sinned, not God. Man must pay for the sins of man, not God for the sins of man, that just does not make any sense.

 

During these dialogs with EGK there would be times my head went numb from hitting it against the wall in utter disbelief of what EGK was saying and then not saying and then denying and then affirming

 

It was almost like having a dialog with fv

 

Ya it's sad, because EGK comes across, for the most part as a genuinely good person, although with a blind-spot that he simply has no desire to overcome. I'm going step out on that limb again and say that I have a sense that he has a close loved-one who has passed who had this same blind-spot and in deference to that person he feels that abandoning it will destroy the love he has for this person.

 

lastinline (& leaving it all behind)

[lastinline 0]

EGK...I feel that many times our comments and views are not accepted very well which result into name calling. But just to let you know I appreciate your perspective on this issue, it is something I tend to lean towards.

Can you please give us some insight on what EGK brought out from the Holy Scriptures that as you said, " I tend to lean towards." Please, consider your view and/or answer in light of what Apostle Paul tells us, that we need to accurately acknowledge what the Scriptures tell us the Truth is on any important issue. In this case we are talking about making a decision of eternal consequences. Deciding exactly who Jesus Christ is paramount in making our very foundation of beliefs line up with the absolute Truth.

 

Do you believe that we can even come to beliefs of absolute Truth, by studying the Holy Scriptures?

 

Can you tell me if this is even a issue of uppermost importance to you personally. EGK, seems to say that by the declaration of Jesus being the Son of God, with a fleshly body before the Resurrection, makes him merely a created being and not eternal in any way. Is that how, as you say, "lean"?

 

2 Timothy 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. NKJV

 

2-е Тимофею 2: 14 Сие напоминай, заклиная пред Господом не вступать в словопрения, что нимало не служит к пользе, а к расстройству слушающих.15 Старайся представить себя Богу достойным, делателем неукоризненным, верно преподающим слово истины. 16 А непотребного пустословия удаляйся; ибо они еще более будут преуспевать в нечестии,

 

lastinline (when HE says it, i believe it)

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

In most bible translations of John 8:58 we all read that Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am." the trinitarian view is that by using the words "I AM", that Jesus is claiming to be God. There is the claim then that this is the same as in Exodus 3:14. But really if you study the two you will find that the two differ greatly.

EGK

Hey EGK,

Trying to grasp who God is is not always easy.

Sometimes I think I got it down, but when I spend some time dwelling on it, my mind starts to mix it all up.

 

Here is something I found interesting...

prin Abraam genesthai, egoµ eimi, John 8:58

Before Abraham was made or born, I am. John 8:58 NASB

 

By Jesus saying in greek, ego eimi, He was not only saying that He is eternal.

He is also referring to the holy name of God, Yahweh.

 

Ego eimi is written in Greek like this - ἐγώ εἰμί

 

Here is the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) of Exodus 3: 13-14

13 And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them?

14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

In verse 14 God tells Moses His name is I am THE BEING, or I am WHO I AM.

 

Look at it in the Greek translation of the Old Testament. (I underlined the word used for Gods name, just in case you can't read Greek)

14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

 

So the Name of God, Yahweh, is translated to Ego eimi ( ἐγώ εἰμί) in the Septuagint.

 

I am by no means a scholar.

And I don't believe it is necessary to go into this much detail just to find out who God really is.

But it is interesting.

Regardless, a personal relationship is really what salvation is.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

Kevin;

 

A few thoughts:

If Jesus is using a title in John 8:58, as compared to Exodus 3:14, then the apostle John is guilty of writing a sentence lacking a predicate, hence, an incomplete sentence.

 

Jesus used "I Am" a few times in the Book of John. (John 4:26; 6:35, 41 48, 51; 8:18, 24, 28) in these he is just stating, "It is I". On other occasions he uses it as a designation and a description. (John 6:20; 18: 5,6,8. John 10:7, 9, John 10:11-14, John 11:25; 14:6, John 15:1,5. In all of these there is no indication that implies that Jesus is using the name EHYEH in Exodus, so as to make himself Yahweh, his own God that sent him.

 

It is interesting but I totally agree with you, it is not necessary to go into such detail and it is our personal relationship with our Lord that is where our salvation is. God will guide us.

 

EGK

EGK,

 

So we do agree on one thing, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is what is really important.

 

I find that even though I got saved two years ago, I am still a work in progress.

A big thing for me is prayer and surrender.

 

Even though my salvation is secure in the perfect Savior, I find myself the one who still messes things up.

But even if I mess things up, Jesus is faithful to keep me, and guard me, and hold me in His presence.

This is not blasphemy or taking advantage of His grace, it is just the reality of God's

unconditional love.

Prayer (talking and listening) is the primary way that we can continue to abide in Him.

To be able to talk with Jesus, to communicate with the "God with us" is all I need.

Everything else is extra.

 

Surrender is letting Jesus increase, and letting myself decrease.

 

 

One more note on the "I AM" statement of Jesus.

He did not say "Yahweh", because "Yahweh" is a Hebrew word.

In fact, "Yahweh" is not in the Septuagint.

The translators of the Septuagint replaced the word Yahweh with the english equivalent "I AM".

 

When the Scribes copied the scriptures in the Hebrew, every time they got to the name of God, they would wash their bodies, then write Gods name, then immediately wash again.

That is the amount of respect/fear they had for Gods name (Yahweh).

So it got to the point that people did not say "Yahweh" anymore.

So the translators of the Septuagint replaced the name of "Yahweh" with another Greek word.

But this greek word was clearly know to be referring to the name "Yahweh"

And when Jesus claimed that He was/is Yahweh, this enraged the people.

 

It can be a very complicated issue, but I am sure if somebody with a little better understanding of the Hebrew language explained it, some of these issues would be cleared up.

 

But however complicated it may seem, it is very clear with evidence to prove it, that Jesus did in fact claim that He is "Yahweh".

 

But because we don't speak Hebrew and Greek, it can be somewhat complicated.

 

And like some others mentioned, head knowledge won't help clear things up. Only a real life experience with the savior will change a mans heart.

 

You/we all must decide then, who is "Yahweh"?

 

The good news(gospel) says that it is Jesus!

This is good news indeed!

 

Kevin Nazaroff

EGK,

There are a lot of scriptures here that proclaim the deity of Jesus.

Also our brief conversation on the claims of Jesus to be Yahweh.

 

K.

[Guest BibleStudent]

In fact, "Yahweh" is not in the Septuagint.

The translators of the Septuagint replaced the word Yahweh with the english equivalent "I AM".

Kevin Nazaroff

 

Not true. The LXX utilizes Kyrios in lieu of YHWH. A perusal of the Greek OT will prove this. Also:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrios

The LXX rendition of Yahweh, and adon (lord or master)

 

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Again our babble student is MISHANDLING Scripture

 

Citing wikipedia is not authoritative especially when it clearly states:

 

"This article does not cite any references or sources.

Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (September 2009)"

 

Secondly our babble student says " A perusal of the Greek OT will prove this"

 

The OT WAS NOT written in Greek but Hebrew and Aramaic

 

You need to look at the original

 

Wrong again

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

In fact, "Yahweh" is not in the Septuagint.

The translators of the Septuagint replaced the word Yahweh with the english equivalent "I AM".

Kevin Nazaroff

 

Not true. The LXX utilizes Kyrios in lieu of YHWH. A perusal of the Greek OT will prove this. Also:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrios

The LXX rendition of Yahweh, and adon (lord or master)

Bible Student,

 

Here is the verse in Exodus 3:14 from the LXX, where God tells Moses His name.

Remember, the word God is a title, not a name.

 

The underlined words ἐγώ εἰμί (ego eimi) are the same words Jesus uses in John 8:58.

prin Abraam genesthai, egoµ eimi, John 8:58

Before Abraham was made or born, I am. John 8:58 NASB

 

 

Look at it in the Greek translation (LXX) of the Old Testament. (I underlined the word used for Gods name, just in case you can't read Greek)

14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

Exodus 3:14

[Guest BibleStudent]

In fact, "Yahweh" is not in the Septuagint.

The translators of the Septuagint replaced the word Yahweh with the english equivalent "I AM".

Kevin Nazaroff

 

Not true. The LXX utilizes Kyrios in lieu of YHWH.

 

According to the best translation of the NT, The Emphatic Diaglott, John 8:58 is rendered the same as these words ἐγώ εἰμι are rendered in other passages in John, such as 8:24, 28, "I am he". Same for example in Luke 21:8, Jesus referring to himself.

 

In fact, ἐγώ εἰμι is rendered "I am he" in John 9:9, as spoken by the blind man identifying himself as the person that Jesus healed. Apostle Peter uses the same words to apply to himself as "I am he" to the messengers from Cornelius in Acts 10:21.

 

The same applies with its use in Ex 3:14, that "I am he" sent Moses to the people of Israel, who is further defined in the next verse 15.

 

But you are still wrong about YHWH being replaced in the Greek Septuagint by a word meaning I am. YHWH is not used in Ex 3:14, but in the next verse 15, where it is rendered in the Greek as kyrios.

 

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol 2, page 512, states that about 6,156 places YHWH is rendered as Kyrios meaning lord in the Septuagint.

[Guest foolforyourlovin]

EGK:

 

You are a fool

 

You are not a Christian and yet you feel compelled to comment about another who is contending for the Faith?

 

You are a product of a failed cult and the fruit of that failure is evident in your denial of who Jesus is

 

Check yourself...

 

You have no place to admonish anyone if you are devoid of the Truth and certainly not as a Brother in the Lord

 

 

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

He's not my brother in the Lord

 

EGK:

 

You are a fool

 

You are not a Christian and yet you feel compelled to comment about another who is contending for the Faith?

 

You are a product of a failed cult and the fruit of that failure is evident in your denial of who Jesus is

 

Check yourself...

 

You have no place to admonish anyone if you are devoid of the Truth and certainly not as a Brother in the Lord

 

 

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

In fact, "Yahweh" is not in the Septuagint.

The translators of the Septuagint replaced the word Yahweh with the english equivalent "I AM".

Kevin Nazaroff

 

Not true. The LXX utilizes Kyrios in lieu of YHWH.

 

According to the best translation of the NT, The Emphatic Diaglott, John 8:58 is rendered the same as these words ἐγώ εἰμι are rendered in other passages in John, such as 8:24, 28, "I am he". Same for example in Luke 21:8, Jesus referring to himself.

 

In fact, ἐγώ εἰμι is rendered "I am he" in John 9:9, as spoken by the blind man identifying himself as the person that Jesus healed. Apostle Peter uses the same words to apply to himself as "I am he" to the messengers from Cornelius in Acts 10:21.

 

The same applies with its use in Ex 3:14, that "I am he" sent Moses to the people of Israel, who is further defined in the next verse 15.

 

But you are still wrong about YHWH being replaced in the Greek Septuagint by a word meaning I am. YHWH is not used in Ex 3:14, but in the next verse 15, where it is rendered in the Greek as kyrios.

 

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol 2, page 512, states that about 6,156 places YHWH is rendered as Kyrios meaning lord in the Septuagint.

Upon further study, there is a distinction between I AM(hayah אֶהְיֶה )in verse 13, and LORD(YAHWEH יהוה ) in verse 14.

I am continuing this very important study, as there are some very important points about the I AM and YAHWEH.

It appears that the word Yahweh is derived from the word hayah.

 

The word I AM(hayah אֶהְיֶה ) and LORD(YAHWEH יהוה ) are very close, and there is more here to study, before anybody cares to dismiss this.

Both words are spelled the exact same, besides the first letter. יהוה and אֶהְיֶה (the first letter is considered the letter on the right, not the left.)

 

I will post some more on this in the very near future...

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

Until I can further provide clear and concise information on the very powerful and clear statement of Jesus' that He is the great I AM, I would like to leave these scriptures.

 

Here in Jeremiah, we see that the coming Messiah is none other than the the Lord Yahweh.

5 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD (YAHWEH יהוה ),

“When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;

And He will reign as king and act wisely

And do justice and righteousness in the land.

6 “In His days Judah will be saved,

And Israel will dwell securely;

And this is His name by which He will be called,

‘The LORD (YAHWEH יהוה ) our righteousness.’ Je 23:5-6 NASB

 

It is again repeated in chapter 33

15 ‘In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.

16 ‘In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the LORD(YAHWEH יהוה ) is our righteousness.’ Je 33:15-16 NASB

 

 

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question:

42 “What do you think about the Christ(Christos), whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.”

43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’(Yahweh kuriŏs) saying,

44 ‘THE LORD(Yahweh kuriŏs) SAID TO MY LORD(Ădônây kuriŏs),

“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET” ’?

45 “If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’(Yahweh kuriŏs) how is He his son?”

46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question. Matthew 22:41-46 (NASB95)

[Guest BibleStudent]

41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question:

42 “What do you think about the Christ(Christos), whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.”

43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’(Yahweh kuriŏs) saying,

44 ‘THE LORD(Yahweh kuriŏs) SAID TO MY LORD(Ădônây kuriŏs),

“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET” ’?

45 “If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’(Yahweh kuriŏs) how is He his son?”

46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question. Matthew 22:41-46 (NASB95)

Wrong wrong wrong: You manipulated the text in the verses to your own interpretation. Correct rendering is:

 

43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him (Jesus) ‘Lord,’(adonay=kuriŏs) saying,

 

45 “If David then calls Him (Jesus) ‘Lord,’(adonay=kuriŏs) how is he (Jesus) his (David's) son?”

 

David called Jesus Lord=adonay=kyrios, just as Yahweh did. David did not call Jesus YHWH.

 

YHWH is not translated into Greek but replaced by adonay. Follow the context of the thinking.

 

You must really be desparate if you have to manipulate the text in these passages in this manner.

 

 

 

 

[Guest BibleStudent]

Correction:

 

YHWH is not translated into Greek but replace by the word Kyrios = lord.

 

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

Wrong wrong wrong: You manipulated the text in the verses to your own interpretation. Correct rendering is:

 

You must really be desparate if you have to manipulate the text in these passages in this manner.

I am not trying to interpret this verse.

I am trying to bring out the true meaning and its context.

 

I used several lexicons and interlinear bibles from the Greek and Hebrew on my Logos software computer program.

I will re-check when I get home.

 

Kevin Nazaroff

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

Until I re check the verse in Matthew 22, what about this verse?

 

Is Jeremiah speaking about Jesus?

If he is speaking about Jesus, then Jesus was given the name Yahweh, according to this prophesy.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Note, this is taken from the Hebrew, not the LXX.

 

Thanks

 

Kevin Nazaroff

 

 

 

I inserted the name Yahweh as it appears in the original Hebrew text.

It is rendered in english as LORD.

 

5 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD (YAHWEH יהוה ),

“When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;

And He will reign as king and act wisely

And do justice and righteousness in the land.

6 “In His days Judah will be saved,

And Israel will dwell securely;

And this is His name by which He will be called,

‘The LORD (YAHWEH יהוה ) our righteousness.’ Je 23:5-6 NASB

 

It is again repeated in chapter 33

15 ‘In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.

16 ‘In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the LORD(YAHWEH יהוה ) is our righteousness.’ Je 33:15-16 NASB

Edited July 23, 2010 by KevinPolyaNazaroff

[KevinPolyaNazaroff 0]

41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question:

42 “What do you think about the Christ(Christos), whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.”

43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’(Yahweh kuriŏs) saying,

44 ‘THE LORD(Yahweh kuriŏs) SAID TO MY LORD(Ădônây kuriŏs),

“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET” ’?

45 “If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’(Yahweh kuriŏs) how is He his son?”

46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question. Matthew 22:41-46 (NASB95)

Wrong wrong wrong: You manipulated the text in the verses to your own interpretation. Correct rendering is:

 

43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him (Jesus) ‘Lord,’(adonay=kuriŏs) saying,

 

45 “If David then calls Him (Jesus) ‘Lord,’(adonay=kuriŏs) how is he (Jesus) his (David's) son?”

 

David called Jesus Lord=adonay=kyrios, just as Yahweh did. David did not call Jesus YHWH.

 

YHWH is not translated into Greek but replaced by adonay. Follow the context of the thinking.

 

You must really be desparate if you have to manipulate the text in these passages in this manner.

Here is the verses from Matthew 22:42-46 with my addition of the Greek word for Lord in parentheses, as it appears from the original Greek text.

 

42 “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.”

43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’(kurios) saying,

44 ‘THE LORD(kurios) SAID TO MY LORD(kurios),

“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET” ’?

45 “If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’(kurios) how is He his son?”

46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question. Matthew 22:42-46 (NASB95)

 

 

Now in verse 44, Jesus is quoting from Psalms 110:1

Here is the verse from Psalm 110:1 with my addition of the Hebrew word for Lord in parentheses, as it appears from the original Hebrew text.

1 The LORD(Yehweh) says to my Lord(Adonay):

“Sit at My right hand

Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

Psalm 110:1 (NASB95)

 

 

So, in reading verse 44, we see both Yahweh and Adonay are used.

But the Greek translates Yahweh and Adonay into the same Greek word "kurios".

 

So I do not see any error in my original post.

Please let me know if I am in error.

 

By reading and re-reading Matthey 22:42-46, what is the context?

Why did Jesus go beyond the title "Son of David"?

Why did Jesus hold claim to the name of God in Psalms 110:1.

 

What is Jesus saying?

Why were the Pharisees not "able to answer Him a word"?

 

 

[stevepiv 0]

Here is a link to a page that is worth reading. I also copied & pasted the article below.

 

Who is Jehovah? Who is Jesus? by Phil Johnson

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Who Is Jehovah? Who Is Jesus?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Copyright © 1996 by Phillip R. Johnson. All rights reserved.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses are well-known for their denial of the deity of Christ. According to their theology, Jesus was an incarnation of the supreme archangel, not God in human flesh.

 

The historical name for this teaching is Arianism. Arius was a fourth-century heretic whose doctrine was opposed by Athanasius and condemned at the council of Nicea in 325. Arius's doctrine of the Incarnation was virtually identical to that of modern-day Jehovah's Witnesses. Arius even used many of the same arguments JWs employ today. Athanasius brilliantly responded to Arius and exposed his distortions of Scripture. Athanasius's work entitled On the Incarnation stands as an effective reply to the Jehovah's witnesses.

 

But for the moment let's ignore the writings of Athanasius, the documents of the Nicene Council, and every other historical and theological source except Scripture itself. Is it possible to demonstrate conclusively from the Bible alone that Jesus Christ is set forth in Scripture as God? I believe it is. And I am convinced that those who reject Christ's deity must therefore also reject the plain meaning of the Word of God.

 

 

At least eight lines of argument combine to make the biblical case for the deity of Christ:

 

 

1. The Old Testament predicted a divine Savior

 

We need only sample a few key passages to make the point:

Psalm 2 is a Messianic Psalm and was recognized as such by Jewish scholars centuries before Christ. In Acts 13:33, Paul affirms that this psalm has a Messianic meaning. The psalm closes with these verses, "Worship [Jehovah] with reverence, And rejoice with trembling. Do homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!" (vv. 11- 12).

 

There the phrases "Worship [Jehovah] with reverence" and "Do homage to the Son" are parallel. And as is typical in Hebrew poetic parallelism, this means the two phrases are logical equivalents. Worship [Jehovah]" means "do homage to the Son." Moreover, this psalm presents the Son as Someone in whom believers can take refuge—a Savior who is God's own Son, identical in character and rank with God the Father.

 

Psalm 110 is identified as a Messianic Psalm by the writer of Hebrews (Heb. 5:6; 7:17). Here David calls Him Lord: "The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet" (v.1). Jesus Himself quoted this verse in Matthew 22:43-45 to demonstrate that He existed before David and was superior to any earthly king. The word translated "Lord" in that verse does not necessarily designate deity. It is a Hebrew word that often applies to an earthly Master. So it's only a single piece in the puzzle—not particularly significant by itself, but when weighed with the rest of the evidence, its full meaning becomes clear.

 

Other Messianic prophecies are even more clear in ascribing deity to the Lord's Anointed One.

Isaiah 9:6, for example, is a clear promise of the Messiah. It gives a string of names that apply to Him: "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father [or, "father of eternity"], Prince of Peace." An earlier prophecy by Isaiah, found in Isaiah 7:14, gave Him the name Immanuel, which literally means, "God with us."

 

Micah 5:2 prophesied that Messiah's birthplace would be Bethlehem, and it spoke of Him with these profoundly important words: "From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."

 

In Malachi 3:1-2 we find one of the clearest, most vivid prophecies of the coming Messiah. Mark 1:2 identifies this verse as a prophecy of Christ:

 

Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.

 

Notice that it portrays Jesus as Lord (this is the Hebrew word Adonai), who is coming to His temple. And He is coming to do a work of divine judgment.

 

2. Jesus is called Jehovah

 

At this point the well-trained Jehovah's Witness would want to make a distinction between the word Adonai, which is translated "Lord" in most English Bibles, and the Word Jehovah (or Yahweh), also translated "Lord" in most English Bibles. If you want to tell the difference between the words in most translations, when the original is Adonai, the word "Lord" will appear in capital and lowercase letters; when the Hebrew word is Jehovah, the word "LORD" will appear in capital and small capital letters.

 

Let's suppose our hypothetical Jehovah's Witness points out that in all the verses I have cited so far, the word Adonai has been employed, not Jehovah. Since the Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jehovah is the one true name of God, any passages that apply the term Jehovah to Christ would conclusively destroy their entire theology. Are there any such verses?

 

There certainly are. Psalm 23:1, for example, says, "Jehovah is my shepherd." Jesus very clearly applied this passage to Himself in John 10:11, 14 when He said, "I am the good shepherd." And the writer of Hebrews also applied this passage to Christ in Hebrews 13:20, when he wrote, "The God of peace . . . brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord"— Jesus our Jehovah.

 

In Isaiah 6:5, when Isaiah saw his vision of heaven, with the Lord high and lifted up, he said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord [Jehovah] of hosts." Yet the apostle John, referring to this same incident, writes that Isaiah saw Christ's glory, "and he spoke of Him" (Jn. 12:41).

 

In the famous prophecy of John the Baptist found in Isaiah 40:3, Jesus is called Jehovah: "A voice is calling, 'Clear the way for [Jehovah] in the wilderness; make smooth in the desert a highway for our God."

 

And in Jeremiah 23:5-6, a very crucial text for the doctrine of justification by faith. This verse introduces a new name for God, Jehovah Tsidkenu, "Jehovah our righteousness." Notice to whom it is applied: "Behold, the days are coming," declares [Jehovah], "When I shall raise up for David a righteous Branch; and He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land. [This is very clearly a messianic prophecy.] In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; and this is His name by which He will be called, '[Jehovah] our righteousness'" (Jer. 23:5-6).

 

Here's a very familiar passage, Joel 2:32: "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of [Jehovah] Will be [saved]." Both Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 quote that passage, applying the title Jehovah to Christ.

 

The simple fact is that Jehovah's Witnesses do not witness to the true Jehovah of Scripture. They reject His own witness and the witness of His Word that Christ Himself is Jehovah who came to earth in human flesh.

 

3. Titles reserved for Jehovah are applied to Christ

 

In Isaiah 10:20, we find the expression, "Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel." The Holy one is said to be no less than Jehovah Himself. And in Acts 3:13-4, Peter tells the men of Jerusalem, "You delivered up [Jesus], and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One."

 

In Isaiah 44:6 we read, "Thus says [Jehovah], the King of Israel and his Redeemer, [Jehovah Sabaoth]: 'I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me." That verse in and of itself offers strong proof for the Trinity, because it differentiates between Jehovah and His Redeemer Jehovah. But it also reserves for Jehovah God this expression "the first and the last." That title surfaces again in Revelation 1:8, where it is again applied to Jehovah: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." No question about who owns that title. Notice, too that it is a title that can hardly be shared with any created being: the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the One who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty. Yet at the end of the book of Revelation we read these words again, this time spoken by Jesus Christ: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:13).

 

In Isaiah 43:11, God speaks: "I, even I, am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me." Did you realize the title "Savior" is reserved in Scripture for God? This verse says so in the plainest possible terms. "I am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me." That is why Paul, writing to Titus, did not shrink from applying the name God and the word Savior both to Jesus Christ. Titus 2:11-13 says this:

 

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.

 

Zechariah 12:10 includes a most interesting prophecy. In context, this is Jehovah speaking. Verse 4 tells us so. Then verse 10 says, "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first- born." Who was the One who was pierced? It was Christ. And John 19:37 specifically applies this text to Christ.

 

Deuteronomy 10:17 says, "[Jehovah] your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God." Yet Revelation 17:14 applies the title "Lord of Lords" to the lamb, Jesus Christ: "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

 

4. Jesus possesses all the incommunicable attributes of God

 

Christ is eternal, as we noted in Micah 5:2, and in His titles, "the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

 

He is omnipresent. In Matthew 18:20, He said, "Where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst"; and in Matthew 28:20, He promised, "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

 

He is omniscient. On the night Christ was betrayed, the disciples told Him, "Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God" (Jn. 16:30). Later, Peter appealed to Christ's omniscience in his own defense, John 21:17: "Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, 'Do you love Me?' And he said to Him, 'Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.'" In Revelation 2:23 Christ describes Himself in these terms: "I am He who searches the minds and hearts.

 

He is omnipotent. Philippians 3:21 says He "will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself." Hebrews 1:3 says He "upholds all things by the word of His power."

He is immutable, unchanging. This attribute could never be true of any created being. Yet Hebrews 1:10-12 says, speaking of Christ,

 

Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands; they will perish, but Thou remainest; And they all will become old as a garment, and as a mantle Thou wilt roll them up; As a garment they will also be changed. But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end.

 

Hebrews 13:8 is a familiar affirmation of the immutability of Christ: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever."

 

In summary, Scripture says Christ embodies every attribute that is true of Jehovah, Colossians 2:9: "For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form." And Hebrews 1:3 says Christ "is the radiance of [Jehovah's] glory and the exact representation of His nature. Jesus is Jehovah God.

 

5. Jesus does the works of God

 

Jesus does works that God alone can do. For example, Christ created "all things." John 1:3 says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." If that is true, then He himself could not be a created being.

 

Colossians 1:16 says the same thing in more detail, ruling out the possibility He could be any kind of archangel: "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him." Verse 17 takes it a step further and pictures Him not only as Creator but also as Sustainer: "And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

 

He oversees the operation of divine providence. In John 17:2, Christ prays to the Father, "Even as Thou gavest [the Son] authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. Ephesians 1:22 echoes that: "And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church."

 

He forgives sin. This was a huge controversy in Jesus' earthly ministry. Matt 9:2-7 and Mark 2:5-10 give the accounts of how the Pharisees were offended that He forgave sins. In Mark 2:7 they ask, "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?" They understood clearly the implications of His authority.

 

He has the power to raise the dead and judge final judgment. In John 5:22, Jesus said, "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son." That is a very explicit claim of deity, and in verse 24, Jesus even makes the basis of judgment the issue of whether someone hears His word or not. Acts 10:42 says Christ "has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead." Acts 17:31 says the same thing. 2 Timothy 4:1 says "Christ Jesus . . . is to judge the living and the dead."

 

It is He who will bring us into the fullness of glorification. Philippians 3:21 says He "will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory." In Revelation 21:5 He says, "Behold, I am making all things new."

 

6. Jesus receives worship.

 

Jesus Himself in Matthew 4:10 said told the Devil, "Begone, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'" If Jesus Himself were only a creature, He would have been guilty of hypocrisy, for He himself received worship. Not once did Jesus ever rebuke anyone for worshiping Him. Never did He refuse anyone's worship. In fact, He corrected those who scolded others for worshiping Him, as in John 10, when Martha was angry that Mary sat at His feet. And in Matthew 26, He rebuked the disciples for being indignant that a woman had anointed Him with expensive ointment.

 

Listen carefully to these verses, and remember that in every case Jesus welcomed the worship that was offered to Him:

 

Matthew 14:33—"And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, 'You are certainly God's Son!'"

 

John 9:38—"And [the man born blind] said, 'Lord, I believe.' And he worshiped Him."

 

Matthew 28:9—"And behold, Jesus met them and [greeted the women coming from His tomb]. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

 

Matthew 28:17-18—"And when [the eleven disciples] saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.'"

 

John 20:28-29—"Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!' [Now listen to Jesus' response to Thomas' calling Him God:] Jesus said to him, 'Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.'"

 

Contrast Jesus' response to worship with Peter's response when "Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him" (Acts 10:25). Verse 26 says, "Peter raised him up, saying, 'Stand up; I too am just a man.'" Acts 14:11-18 tells of a similar episode in Paul's ministry, when he and Barnabas refused the worship of an entire crowd. Then in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, we have angels refusing worship from the Apostle John. In 22:9 the angel says, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God."

 

Scripture explicitly states that the Son is to be worshiped. John 5:22-23 says, "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." Jesus placed Himself on the highest possible level when He made Himself an object of our faith, John 14:1: "Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me."

 

You want ultimate proof that Jesus is not an angel? Hebrews 1:6 says that when the Father brought the Son into the world, He said, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."

 

Let's move on to the two final lines of argument that prove Jesus is God. I have saved the strongest for last. For if Jesus is God, you would expect the Bible to say so in the strongest of terms. And in fact it does.

 

7. The Bible says Jesus is God.

 

John 1 is a favorite text of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The people who come to your door are thoroughly trained in how to respond if you show them John 1:1. Turn to that passage and let's look at the first three verses:

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

 

This is a very strong statement on the deity of Christ. Every phrase is significant. "In the beginning" harks back to Genesis 1:1 and sets the beginning of John's gospel in eternity past, before anything or anyone was created. B. B. Warfield wrote,

 

What is declared is that "in the beginning"—not "from the beginning" but "in the beginning,"—when first things came to be, the Word, not came into being, so that He might be the first of those things which came into being, but already was. Absolute eternity of being is asserted for the Word in as precise and strong language as absolute eternity of being can be asserted. The Word antedates the beginning of things; He already was.1

 

The next phrase, "the Word was with God," only strengthens the assertion of deity in this passage. It means that from all eternity, the Word coexisted with God, alongside Him, in personal inter-communion with Him. In Warfield's words, "He has been from all eternity God's Fellow."2

This eternal relationship between God and the Word is underscored by a phrase in John 1:18, "the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father . . . ." Jesus Christ was eternally in the bosom of the Father, somehow distinct from God yet at the same time identical to Him. By the way, the New American Standard translation in v. 18 is accurate; in the Greek, the literal wording is, "the only-begotten God"—another straightforward proof of Christ's deity. The whole principle of the Trinity is wrapped up in this expression, "the Word was with God."

 

But let's return to the third phrase in John 1:1, for this is the part Jehovah's Witnesses feel they can answer: "The Word was God." That is precisely and literally what this text says in the Greek. A well-trained JW will attempt to convince you that our translation is faulty. In the Greek, they will tell you, the word God lacks any definite article (quite right). Therefore, they say, an indefinite article must be supplied: "The Word was a God." That is bad Greek and totally unwarranted. Was is what is known as a copulative verb. You may have called it a "linking verb" in grammar school. It simply connects the noun on one side with the noun on the other The Word was God. "God" in that sentence is a predicate nominative. It can only be translated the way you find it in most Bibles: "The word was God." To insert the word "a" is both bad Greek and bad grammar.

Jehovah's Witnesses have produced their own Bible with their own translation. And they have a handful of Greek scholars who have tried desperately to defend this translation. But what these JW "scholars" do not tell their own people is that there are dozens of places in their Bible where they are forced by common sense to violate the very rule they want to try to impose on John 1:1. I'll give you two examples from this very same context. If we followed the JW construction and added the word "a" every time the definite article is missing, here's how a couple of other verses from John 1 would read:

 

v. 6 There came a man, sent from [a] God, whose name was John.

v. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of [a] God, even to those who believe in His name.

 

So John 1:1 is the achilles' heel of the Jehovah's Witnesses' theology, and that is why every JW is taught what to say when it is brought up. But their answers are not at all satisfying to anyone who knows the smallest amount of Greek grammar, and their denial of Christ's deity is easily debunked merely by the context of this verse. You needn't be shaken by the JW arguments on this.

Of course, there are more verses in the New Testament that explicitly call Jesus God. Remember, as we saw earlier, that when Thomas exclaimed, "My Lord and My God," Jesus did not rebuke him, but commended him for his faith (Jn. 20:29).

 

Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 refer to Jesus as "Our God and Savior." Romans 9:5 says He is over all God, blessed forever. Philippians 2:6 says He existed from all eternity in the form of God. And 1 John 5:20 says, "We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

 

One of the best verses to challenge JWs with is Hebrews 1:8, because it is as clear in its affirmation of Jesus' deity as John 1:1, and the typical JW will not have been indoctrinated with a canned answer. This verse quotes God the Father, who is speaking to the Son: "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever." The quotation comes from Psalm 45:6, where the attribution of deity is absolutely unambiguous in the Hebrew. (Unfortunately, the JWs' New World Translation has heedlessly and deliberately changed the meaning of both texts, translating Hebrews 1:8 as "God is your throne," and artifically forcing their translation of Psalm 45:6 to fit that meaning. But the statement "God is your throne" makes no sense whatsoever in either context. The whole point of Hebrews 1 is to show that Jesus is higher than any angel. That is the point that needs to be pressed when you discuss this text with a Jehovah's Witness.)

 

8. Jesus Himself claims to be God.

 

Finally, if Jesus is God, we might expect Him to say so. Have you ever wondered why He didn't simply state, "I am God?" and put an end to any possibility of confusion?

 

Actually, He did. What He says in John 8:58 was to His Jewish audience a far more explicit statement than if He had merely said "I am God." It is important to see this passage in its context. In verse 53, we see that the Pharisees were becoming uncomfortable with Jesus' claims, beginning to suspect that He was putting Himself on a level of authority no mere man would have any right to. They said:

 

53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"

54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';

55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word.

56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.

 

Notice that these men understood precisely what Jesus was saying. And because He obviously also understood what they were asking, His reply is all that much more significant. He was telling them He was God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, "I AM." He could have made no stronger claim of deity. If that had not been His meaning, if he were claiming only to be the firstborn angel, He would have said, "before Abraham was born, I was."

The gospel of John includes a whole series of statements Jesus made about Himself using this name "I AM"—I am the way, the truth, and the life (Jn. 14:6); I am the good shepherd; I am the door; I am the bread of life; I am the light of the world. Each one of these statements, studied in context, reveals that He was making claim after claim of absolute deity.

 

The biblical evidence for the deity of Christ is conclusive. It is overwhelming, irrefutable evidence. In fact, what we have covered here is only a representative sample. I haven't even mentioned John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." That, and many other similar passages could be adduced to prove even more conclusively that according to Scripture, He is God.

 

So much evidence cannot be swept aside or ignored. You either believe it, or you condemn yourself to an unthinkable eternity. In fact, Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins" (Jn. 8:24). There Jesus holds forth His "I am"—without a predicate—as the object of our faith. He is very obviously setting Himself in the place of God, and He can do that only because He is God. Those who know that Scripture is the Word of God can only believe, and join in the worship of Him at whose name every knee shall bow.

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

NOTES

B. B. Warfield, Faith and Life (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1990 reprint), 87.

Ibid., 89.

 

 

Phil Johnson

 

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[Guest Guest]

Copyright © 1996 by Phillip R. Johnson. All rights reserved.

The historical name for this teaching is Arianism. Arius was a fourth-century heretic whose doctrine was opposed by Athanasius and condemned at the council of Nicea in 325. Arius's doctrine of the Incarnation was virtually identical to that of modern-day Jehovah's Witnesses. Arius even used many of the same arguments JWs employ today. Athanasius brilliantly responded to Arius and exposed his distortions of Scripture.

Steve, did you know ARIANISM is taught in the molokan's Spirit and life book?

Arius and Rudometkin both assert that Christ was not God like the Father, but a creature made in time as witnessed by Rudometkin himelf. This teaching of Arius was ejected by the Council of Constantinople, and is not Christian doctrine.

 

ARIENISM as it is found in the Spirit and Life book page 173 line 1-4;

Line 1; "In this (book) I have inscribed the beginning of my vision of the mystery concerning the appearance of the beginnings and endless Omnipotent God the Father. He then first and before the ages was everywhere alone, in the image of the Ancient of Days.

Line 2; "Verily He Himself dwelt everywhere before the ages"….

Line 3; "And there at that time no one was yet with Him, but He alone fulfilled all in every place as the Omnipotent Contemplator."

Line 4; "And thus from this beginning, upon the awakening of His inexpressible Divine powers"…..

 

ARIENISM as it is found in the Spirit and Life book page 174 line 8-10;

Line 8; "Immediately there personally stood before Him a handsome youth of supreme stature, manifestly born and created of Him; by none other than but by GOD His Father.

Line 9; "This is why here GOD Himself, first of all, walked up to Him like a real Father to a son, and greeted Him with His image and likeness. "

Line 10; "And therein They Both began a long and wisdom filled conversation regarding this. They Both together, personally in my presence, conversed about Themselves between Themselves lengthily and wisely, like a father and son in a secret coalition."

 

 

EVEN GOD HAD A BEGINNING AND WAS NOT ETERNAL….The molokan Spirit and Life heresy continues on page 170, quotes are taken from an earlier edition, the 1928 edition is worded slightly differently, through the crafty efforts of Mr. Fuzzyface aka D_H_S.

 

lines 1&2

"Which, in this, opened the eyes of my heart to quickly see into this secret concern, how and from where the God of gods Himself first originated and came into being, and equally all spirits eternally subject to Him.

 

[lastinline 0]

Mr. Fuzzyface aka D_H_S.

Is it kept for a cult-look statement or of beauty and/or gleeful bliss?

Wouldn't you agree that "HERESY PEDDLER" better suits his current attitude of "I hear no EVIL and see NO EVIL," in the crevices of his un-responsive and unproductive un-fertile brain-cells, even though he lives with prideful addictive personality. aka PAP syndrome.

 

lastinline (& with nowhere-else to go)

[Guest Guest]

Mr. Fuzzyface aka D_H_S.

Is it kept for a cult-look statement or of beauty and/or gleeful bliss?

No soup strainer, no heaven, garbanzos are evil.

 

[Guest Guest_curious]

No soup strainer, no heaven, garbanzos are evil.

Soup strainer is a beard, don't grow a beard and a real molokan man doesn't go to heaven, is that right? And yes some garbanzo beans can do bad things.

 

I am curious