Trinity Question

GoodDay · February 9, 2010

Seeking or anyone else who may want to share their thoughts on this.

This is from the Gospel of John 4;

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is Jesus Christ Himself talking to His worried disciples as he is preparing to leave and trying to put their minds at ease by letting them know He must go to the Father so the Father can send the Comforter; The Holy Spirit.

Verse 20 I boldly underlined "That day" and "I in you." Is this pointing to Jesus Christ being God, and that when He leaves and the Holy Spirit is poured out on "that day,"Day of Pentacost, The Holy Spirit being God also? So far Jesus has shown Him being God, the Father being God and now the Holy Spirit Being God. (Jesus is saying Say "On that day I will be in you, rather than Him saying, the Holy Spirit being in you).

That's what I understand that to be?

Thanks!

Paul W. Orloff

NAD923 · February 9, 2010

Seeking or anyone else who may want to share their thoughts on this.

This is from the Gospel of John 4;

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is Jesus Christ Himself talking to His worried disciples as he is preparing to leave and trying to put their minds at ease by letting them know He must go to the Father so the Father can send the Comforter; The Holy Spirit.

Verse 20 I boldly underlined "That day" and "I in you." Is this pointing to Jesus Christ being God, and that when He leaves and the Holy Spirit is poured out on "that day,"Day of Pentacost, The Holy Spirit being God also? So far Jesus has shown Him being God, the Father being God and now the Holy Spirit Being God. (Jesus is saying Say "On that day I will be in you, rather than Him saying, the Holy Spirit being in you).

That's what I understand that to be?

Thanks!

Paul W. Orloff

"I will pray the Father, and He shall give you..."

"...that He may abide..." (the Spirit) "..for He dwelleth with you..."

Why is there that separation "I" , "HE"? Why "HE" and not it?

From John 16

5 "Now I am going to HIM who sent ME, yet none of you asks me, `Where are you going?'

10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the FATHER, where you can see me no longer;

13 But when HE, the Spirit of truth, comes, HE will guide you into all truth. HE will not speak on HIS own;

HE will speak only what HE hears, and HE will tell you what is yet to come.

23 In that day you will no longer ask ME anything. I tell you the truth, MY FATHER will give you whatever you ask in MY name.

24 Until now you have not asked for anything in MY name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language

but will tell you plainly about MY Father.

26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the FATHER on your behalf.

27 No, the FATHER HIMSELF loves you because you have loved ME and have believed that I came FROM God.

Sorry I can not see how GOD (Himself) came to earth, died and resurected Himself.

I'll say again, God is like a surname.

GoodDay · February 9, 2010

Seeking or anyone else who may want to share their thoughts on this.

This is from the Gospel of John 4;

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is Jesus Christ Himself talking to His worried disciples as he is preparing to leave and trying to put their minds at ease by letting them know He must go to the Father so the Father can send the Comforter; The Holy Spirit.

Verse 20 I boldly underlined "That day" and "I in you." Is this pointing to Jesus Christ being God, and that when He leaves and the Holy Spirit is poured out on "that day,"Day of Pentacost, The Holy Spirit being God also? So far Jesus has shown Him being God, the Father being God and now the Holy Spirit Being God. (Jesus is saying Say "On that day I will be in you, rather than Him saying, the Holy Spirit being in you).

That's what I understand that to be?

Thanks!

Paul W. Orloff

"I will pray the Father, and He shall give you..."

"...that He may abide..." (the Spirit) "..for He dwelleth with you..."

Why is there that separation "I" , "HE"? Why "HE" and not it?

From John 16

5 "Now I am going to HIM who sent ME, yet none of you asks me, `Where are you going?'

10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the FATHER, where you can see me no longer;

13 But when HE, the Spirit of truth, comes, HE will guide you into all truth. HE will not speak on HIS own;

HE will speak only what HE hears, and HE will tell you what is yet to come.

23 In that day you will no longer ask ME anything. I tell you the truth, MY FATHER will give you whatever you ask in MY name.

24 Until now you have not asked for anything in MY name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language

but will tell you plainly about MY Father.

26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the FATHER on your behalf.

27 No, the FATHER HIMSELF loves you because you have loved ME and have believed that I came FROM God.

Sorry I can not see how GOD (Himself) came to earth, died and resurected Himself.

I'll say again, God is like a surname.

Hi NAD!

I too had a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea that Jesus is God.

Some of the others have been explaining it and can explain it better than me.

The reason scripture says "He" is because the Holy Spirit is the third person and not an "it" of the GodHead.

Even John 1 was hard to wrap my thoughts around at one time.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

The word was "with" God, and Word "was" God. There is so much to those words.

Even the first chapters of Genesis in Hebrew use a plural word for God; Elohim

We know there is only one God and God is singular AND plural.

God bless NAD,

Paul

Edited February 9, 2010 by GoodDay

NAD923 · February 10, 2010

Seeking or anyone else who may want to share their thoughts on this.

This is from the Gospel of John 14;

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is Jesus Christ Himself talking to His worried disciples as he is preparing to leave and trying to put their minds at ease by letting them know He must go to the Father so the Father can send the Comforter; The Holy Spirit.

Verse 20 I boldly underlined "That day" and "I in you." Is this pointing to Jesus Christ being God, and that when He leaves and the Holy Spirit is poured out on "that day,"Day of Pentacost, The Holy Spirit being God also? So far Jesus has shown Him being God, the Father being God and now the Holy Spirit Being God. (Jesus is saying Say "On that day I will be in you, rather than Him saying, the Holy Spirit being in you).

That's what I understand that to be?

Thanks!

Paul W. Orloff

"I will pray the Father, and He shall give you..."

"...that He may abide..." (the Spirit) "..for He dwelleth with you..."

Why is there that separation "I" , "HE"? Why "HE" and not it?

From John 16

5 "Now I am going to HIM who sent ME, yet none of you asks me, `Where are you going?'

10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the FATHER, where you can see me no longer;

13 But when HE, the Spirit of truth, comes, HE will guide you into all truth. HE will not speak on HIS own;

HE will speak only what HE hears, and HE will tell you what is yet to come.

23 In that day you will no longer ask ME anything. I tell you the truth, MY FATHER will give you whatever you ask in MY name.

24 Until now you have not asked for anything in MY name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language

but will tell you plainly about MY Father.

26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the FATHER on your behalf.

27 No, the FATHER HIMSELF loves you because you have loved ME and have believed that I came FROM God.

Sorry I can not see how GOD (Himself) came to earth, died and resurrected Himself.

I'll say again, God is like a surname.

Hi NAD!

I too had a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea that Jesus is God.

Some of the others have been explaining it and can explain it better than me.

The reason scripture says "He" is because the Holy Spirit is the third person and not an "it" of the GodHead.

Even John 1 was hard to wrap my thoughts around at one time.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

The word was "with" God, and Word "was" God. There is so much to those words.

Even the first chapters of Genesis in Hebrew use a plural word for God; Elohim

We know there is only one God and God is singular AND plural.

God bless NAD,

Paul

Hi Paul,

Yes hard to understand were you are coming from with this, there must be a deeper meaning I'm not getting.

Genesis 1 were GOD created, everything. Then as we read in changes to Lord.

MGR writes "..all was created through the Word.." another place it says "..the Spirit of God hung/hovered over the void.."

No one has seen God because he is Spirit everywhere, but Abraham walked with the Lord, Moses turned white from the Glory of the Lord,

Ezra saw the Lord sitting on His throne, just a few that come to memory.

God created the Word/His Son in His own image. So are we seeing God when Jesus appears to us (there has been a lot of claims to this)?

Then if it is God the bible is wrong or there has been a serious typo/wrong translation.

If God is all one, over the last 2000 years,you would think with all those translations it would have been corrected?

There is a passage in Peter that might hold up for that but I need to find it first to be sure.

NAD923 · February 10, 2010

Hi Paul,

Not Peter but Timothy.

Here Paul sets Timothy straight on a few things, but I more was looking for him tying God and Christ as the same. Sorry no luck!

Alot of pauls passages can be made to sound that way but thats not what he's saying.

1 Timothy

Ch. 1

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer

4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work -- which is by faith.

11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners -- of whom I am the worst.

16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ch. 2

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,

4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, <<<<<-(the man?)

6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men -- the testimony given in its proper time.

Ch. 3

15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

(We could use these two verses but we know it's Christ he is talking about)

Ch.4

4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.

9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance

10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things.

12 Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.

13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.

14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress.

16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

ch. 6

13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you

14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 which God will bring about in his own time -- God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Paul is teaching Timothy things that seem to contradict the other writers in the New Testament.

Is it because Tim. is a gentile, and Paul is using Tim.s belief to stregthen him?

Or is it a message to all of us?

There's sound advice through all of Pauls letter to Timothy.

KevinPolyaNazaroff · February 10, 2010

Hi Paul,

Yes hard to understand were you are coming from with this, there must be a deeper meaning I'm not getting.

Genesis 1 were GOD created, everything. Then as we read in changes to Lord.

MGR writes "..all was created through the Word.." another place it says "..the Spirit of God hung/hovered over the void.."

No one has seen God because he is Spirit everywhere, but Abraham walked with the Lord, Moses turned white from the Glory of the Lord,

Ezra saw the Lord sitting on His throne, just a few that come to memory.

God created the Word/His Son in His own image. So are we seeing God when Jesus appears to us (there has been a lot of claims to this)?

Then if it is God the bible is wrong or there has been a serious typo/wrong translation.

If God is all one, over the last 2000 years,you would think with all those translations it would have been corrected?

There is a passage in Peter that might hold up for that but I need to find it first to be sure.

The word God is a title, not a name.

God's name is Yahweh.

See the difference in 1 Kings

21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD (Yahweh) be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

1 Kings 18:21 KJV

and here is who we call out to...

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosj: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD(Yahweh). Genesis 4: 26 KJV

So what does it mean to you when Jesus said He is Yahweh?

You have to decide what side of the fence you want to be on.

Proving who Jesus is, or proving who He is not.

Is Yahweh the name of God, or not?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,

Before Abraham was, I am(Yahweh)

John 8:58 KJV

Kevin Nazaroff

February 10, 2010

Hi Paul,

Yes hard to understand were you are coming from with this, there must be a deeper meaning I'm not getting.

Genesis 1 were GOD created, everything. Then as we read in changes to Lord.

MGR writes "..all was created through the Word.." another place it says "..the Spirit of God hung/hovered over the void.."

No one has seen God because he is Spirit everywhere, but Abraham walked with the Lord, Moses turned white from the Glory of the Lord,

Ezra saw the Lord sitting on His throne, just a few that come to memory.

God created the Word/His Son in His own image. So are we seeing God when Jesus appears to us (there has been a lot of claims to this)?

Then if it is God the bible is wrong or there has been a serious typo/wrong translation.

If God is all one, over the last 2000 years,you would think with all those translations it would have been corrected?

There is a passage in Peter that might hold up for that but I need to find it first to be sure.

The word God is a title, not a name.

God's name is Yahweh.

See the difference in 1 Kings

21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD (Yahweh) be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

AMEN! Very well said Kevin, you can take Christ at his word or not, and it's pretty hard to chalk that one up as a translation error since the Pharisees seemed to get his meaning just fine. Why is it so important to some people to try to prove that Christ is not God? Do they need to make room for someone else? Perhaps their very own messiah? Someone a little more to their liking? I guess a nenash messiah just won't do.

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

1 Kings 18:21 KJV

and here is who we call out to...

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosj: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD(Yahweh). Genesis 4: 26 KJV

So what does it mean to you when Jesus said He is Yahweh?

You have to decide what side of the fence you want to be on.

Proving who Jesus is, or proving who He is not.

Is Yahweh the name of God, or not?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,

Before Abraham was, I am(Yahweh)

John 8:58 KJV

Kevin Nazaroff

February 11, 2010

Hi Paul,

Yes hard to understand were you are coming from with this, there must be a deeper meaning I'm not getting.

Genesis 1 were GOD created, everything. Then as we read in changes to Lord.

MGR writes "..all was created through the Word.." another place it says "..the Spirit of God hung/hovered over the void.."

No one has seen God because he is Spirit everywhere, but Abraham walked with the Lord, Moses turned white from the Glory of the Lord,

Ezra saw the Lord sitting on His throne, just a few that come to memory.

God created the Word/His Son in His own image. So are we seeing God when Jesus appears to us (there has been a lot of claims to this)?

Then if it is God the bible is wrong or there has been a serious typo/wrong translation.

If God is all one, over the last 2000 years,you would think with all those translations it would have been corrected?

There is a passage in Peter that might hold up for that but I need to find it first to be sure.

The word God is a title, not a name.

God's name is Yahweh.

See the difference in 1 Kings

21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD (Yahweh) be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

1 Kings 18:21 KJV

and here is who we call out to...

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosj: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD(Yahweh). Genesis 4: 26 KJV

So what does it mean to you when Jesus said He is Yahweh?

You have to decide what side of the fence you want to be on.

Proving who Jesus is, or proving who He is not.

Is Yahweh the name of God, or not?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,

Before Abraham was, I am(Yahweh)

John 8:58 KJV

Kevin Nazaroff

Excellent quote Kevin! It is very hard to dispute Jesus' own words and chalk them up to a translation error since the Pharisees present understood him so clearly. Why do some people try so hard to prove that Jesus is not God? Are they trying to make room for someone else? Perhaps their own private messiah? Maybe someone a little more Russian? Who wants a nenash messiah like Jesus, when you can have your own Russian one? Right?

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

KevinPolyaNazaroff · February 11, 2010

Nad,

I just want to say that I am not discouraging discussion about who Jesus is.

I do not claim myself to fully understand the "nature of God".

But I do see a difference between "trying" to understand God, and "passively" searching out who Jesus is.

Not that you are doing this. Only a general observation.

Hope to further discuss this with you or others...

Kevin Nazaroff

NAD923 · February 12, 2010

Nad,
I just want to say that I am not discouraging discussion about who Jesus is.

I do not claim myself to fully understand the "nature of God".

But I do see a difference between "trying" to understand God, and "passively" searching out who Jesus is.

Not that you are doing this. Only a general observation.

Hope to further discuss this with you or others...

Kevin Nazaroff

Hey Kevin

I have been searching for a long time to find any where, where Christ says that He is the one all mighty God.

You would think that MGR, (as heretical as you guys say he was) would have picked up on that, gone past Christ and gone straight to/past God?

I still can't see how HE(Christ) is "the" God. You're going to do better than one word or one liners.

Every thing that I've read in these posts, still make Christ His own person, and God His and the Spirit His.

I've listened to a lot of ministers over the years and I have not heard anyone explain it like you guys. Where did you pick it up from?

NAD

KevinPolyaNazaroff · February 12, 2010

Nad,
I just want to say that I am not discouraging discussion about who Jesus is.

I do not claim myself to fully understand the "nature of God".

But I do see a difference between "trying" to understand God, and "passively" searching out who Jesus is.

Not that you are doing this. Only a general observation.

Hope to further discuss this with you or others...

Kevin Nazaroff

Hey Kevin

I have been searching for a long time to find any where, where Christ says that He is the one all mighty God.

You would think that MGR, (as heretical as you guys say he was) would have picked up on that, gone past Christ and gone straight to/past God?

I still can't see how HE(Christ) is "the" God. You're going to do better than one word or one liners.

Every thing that I've read in these posts, still make Christ His own person, and God His and the Spirit His.

I've listened to a lot of ministers over the years and I have not heard anyone explain it like you guys. Where did you pick it up from?

NAD

The first time I thought in depth about Jesus being God was at hosties house about 8 years ago.

It was explained by a friend that the dux i shzizi clearly reiterated this truth.

The Father is God.

Jesus is God.

Holy Spirit is God.

Several family members also believe this way.

I also have heard it in many radio broadcasts and hear it at Calvary Chapel Fresno.

Josh McDowell wrote a book "More than a Carpenter", that is very good.

I would highly recommend it.

Do I fully understand the Trinity?

No.

Can I explain it?

Kind of, but not the way we will fully know when we walk with Jesus after we leave this current stage in life.

Do I believe it?

Absolutely without a doubt.

The gospel is good news!

And the good news is that God is with us!

If we start there, if I start there, if you start there, that God is with us, than we can begin to understand.

But it is a relationship, not based on head knowledge.

I used to feel far away from God.

I thought, "How can I feel closer to God, have a personal relationship with Him, if I don't even know Him? Who is He. Who do I pray to? Jesus? Father? Holy Spirit?

For me, God was a million miles away, and I did not know how to get to Him.

I was frustrated, and even started to doubt that Jesus really resurrected.

I thought, maybe it was a lie.

Maybe it was all made up.

etc...

But a good friend, after hearing my doubts, asked me a question.

Kevin, how do you get to know people?

I replied, "By talking to them".

He said, "Exactly, now do that with God".

So it was a gradual process that I am currently still in.

Getting to know Him more and more each day.

A personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

By the way, what do you think about when Jesus said, I am Yahweh.

I think is was beyond bold for Him to say that.

What do you think?

anonymous · February 12, 2010

God created the Word/His Son in His own image. So are we seeing God when Jesus appears to us (there has been a lot of claims to this)? (Trinity Question, Post #4, NAD923)

1. No, THE WORD/THE SON was not “created.” HE is.......THE CREATOR.

Listen carefully to the apostles John and Paul’s testimonies of THE WORD/THE SON/JESUS:

“In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with GOD, and THE WORD was GOD. HE was in the beginning with GOD. All things were made through HIM, and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1-4)

“For by HIM all things were created, in Heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities---all things were created through HIM and for HIM. And HE is before all things, and in HIM all things hold together. And HE is THE HEAD of the body, the church. HE is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything HE might be preeminent. For in HIM all the fullness of GOD was pleased to dwell, and through HIM to reconcile to HIMSELF all things, whether on earth or in Heaven, making peace by the blood of HIS cross.” (Colossians 1:16-20)

Again (and again and again and again), WHO created all things?

“In the beginning, GOD created.......” (Genesis 1:1a)

So how can THE WORD/THE SON/JESUS be “created” when all things were created by HIM (GOD/DEITY)?

The false notion that JESUS was a “created being/creature” was the Alexandrian bishop, Arius’, error in thinking and the early church’s rejection of what came to be known as the Arian heresy. It was this heresy and the commotion it caused within the church that resulted in the convention of the council [of bishops] in Nicea in 325 A.D. and the compilation of the Nicene Creed.

2. Yes, one is seeing GOD/DEITY when one sees JESUS.

Philip asked JESUS, “LORD, show us THE FATHER, and it is enough for us.” (John 14:8)

Listen carefully to JESUS’ reply:

“Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know ME, Philip? Whoever has seen ME has seen THE FATHER. How can you say, ‘Show us THE FATHER?’ Do you not believe that I am in THE FATHER and THE FATHER is in ME? The words that I say to you I do not speak on MY own authority, but THE FATHER WHO dwells in ME does HIS works. Believe ME that I am in THE FATHER and THE FATHER is in ME, or else believe on account of the works themselves.’” (John 14:9-11)

So the real question and issue is not whether JESUS is GOD/DEITY but whether one believes/has faith in THE WORD OF GOD WHO IS GOD (John 1:1) WHO IS THE TRUTH (John 14:6).

And that --- to believe or not to believe --- is a “choice” each and every individual makes upon “hearing” the [written] and [iNCARNATE] WORD OF GOD. And those who believe are believers, and those who do not are unbelievers. Simple.

This should prompt each and every person to take to heart Apostle Paul’s exhortation to “examine” himself/herself, whether they be “in the faith.” (2 Corinthians 13:5)

GoodDay · February 12, 2010

Nad and any others who are struggling with Religion dimming the Truth of who Jesus Christ is, please try praying to God and read the Bible only for a couple of months. Put the Spirit and Life away for a while. Do you not realize that book has only been around for a short time? Do you not realize people including Russians were drawn to the real Jesus Christ BEFORE that book was around? Do you not realize how much of an idol the book has become? Do you not know if you spent all that time wasted inside that four-wall religion, outside where God is, you would have a better chance of hearing the Father calling you to Jesus Christ if it is His will?

Time is short. Macxim died and God will do what is right with him. Please be concerned where you yourself will be when you pass on. If it is God's will to adopt you then and only then can you worship Jesus Christ and spirit and truth. He want's His children to WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH, not just to sing those words that Jesus Christ used while witnessing to an adulterous Samaritan woman in the light of day.

The Holy Bible was written in the light! The Spirit and Life was written in the dark!

Paul

GoodDay · February 12, 2010

Does this point to the Trinity??

Matthew 4:5-7

5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Paul

NAD923 · February 13, 2010

Nad and any others who are struggling with Religion dimming the Truth of who Jesus Christ is, please try praying to God and read the Bible only for a couple of months. Put the Spirit and Life away for a while. Do you not realize that book has only been around for a short time? Do you not realize people including Russians were drawn to the real Jesus Christ BEFORE that book was around? Do you not realize how much of an idol the book has become? Do you not know if you spent all that time wasted inside that four-wall religion, outside where God is, you would have a better chance of hearing the Father calling you to Jesus Christ if it is His will?

Time is short. Macxim died and God will do what is right with him. Please be concerned where you yourself will be when you pass on. If it is God's will to adopt you then and only then can you worship Jesus Christ and spirit and truth. He want's His children to WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH, not just to sing those words that Jesus Christ used while witnessing to an adulterous Samaritan woman in the light of day.

The Holy Bible was written in the light! The Spirit and Life was written in the dark!

Paul

Paul your saying that the Father is calling us to the Son.

That puts a question to your understanding in the trinity.

Here's a question, (If we are talking time in biblical proportion)

People have getting around in horse and cart, ploughing fields with a horse and single plough,

writing on reed paper and leather etc. for 5850 years. Then last 100 years we have learned

how to build cars, 50 plough head tractors, planes, telephones, medicines-that let us live longer etc.

The technology in the last 40 years have surpassed that by far, the first computer built was the size of your house

and only had a few megabytes. Now most of us have 16 gig on our phones and if you don't have a terabyte on your computer

you're behind the times. You get the idea? To list everything is going to take a long time.

That is like with our scriptures and understanding the meaning of God.

Old Jerusalem knew only God. He was one. HE only appeared to HIS people.

When Christ came it was hard for them to believe that there was someone else besides God and angels

"We knew your father and mother (most thought he was conceived out of wedlock), how can you be who you say?"

If Christ came to our people in Russia, (same way MGR did) what would His name be? Emmanuel Iosovich Kornov (wood worker)?

Would we say the same thing about Him?

Christ said "I WILL send you the Spirit of Truth, not all will accept HIM"

What IF MGR is the Spirit that Christ Promised?

The Word was just that until He became flesh, took on a name (that we pray to).

Why can't the Spirit do the same?

It's been almost 2000 years since we have received the gospel and the people that Christ came for still don't believe.

Are we headed in the same direction? Or we going in reverse?

You asked if I knew how much the S&L has become an idol?

Personally I don't worship it, it helps me to worship and receive understanding of the true God and Christ.

It makes me look harder for true understanding.

You don't think that the Jews/Hebrews think of you/us, Christians as heretics and idol worshipers?

The S&L was written in the dark?

OK try this- sit in a dark room (as if bind)

Get a piece of paper (about 4 inch square) and write (in straight lines, about 300 words) anything that comes to mind

Can you even imagine that?

EGK

You find a 12 year old and get him to draw, I don't know to many 12 year olds that can even draw a straight line.

My point is without the help of God, a physical man could not have done that!

Paul may God bless us to come to the true understanding of His will!

seeking_truth_1 · February 13, 2010

NAD:

You say you do not worship the s&l but look to "helps me (you) to worship and receive understanding of the true God and Christ"

How can that be?

Is mgr the "new jewish messiah" & ruler of the "millennial kingdom" or not?

GoodDay · February 13, 2010

Nad and any others who are struggling with Religion dimming the Truth of who Jesus Christ is, please try praying to God and read the Bible only for a couple of months. Put the Spirit and Life away for a while. Do you not realize that book has only been around for a short time? Do you not realize people including Russians were drawn to the real Jesus Christ BEFORE that book was around? Do you not realize how much of an idol the book has become? Do you not know if you spent all that time wasted inside that four-wall religion, outside where God is, you would have a better chance of hearing the Father calling you to Jesus Christ if it is His will?

Time is short. Macxim died and God will do what is right with him. Please be concerned where you yourself will be when you pass on. If it is God's will to adopt you then and only then can you worship Jesus Christ and spirit and truth. He want's His children to WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH, not just to sing those words that Jesus Christ used while witnessing to an adulterous Samaritan woman in the light of day.

The Holy Bible was written in the light! The Spirit and Life was written in the dark!

Paul

Paul your saying that the Father is calling us to the Son.

That puts a question to your understanding in the trinity.

Here's a question, (If we are talking time in biblical proportion)

People have getting around in horse and cart, ploughing fields with a horse and single plough,

writing on reed paper and leather etc. for 5850 years. Then last 100 years we have learned

how to build cars, 50 plough head tractors, planes, telephones, medicines-that let us live longer etc.

The technology in the last 40 years have surpassed that by far, the first computer built was the size of your house

and only had a few megabytes. Now most of us have 16 gig on our phones and if you don't have a terabyte on your computer

you're behind the times. You get the idea? To list everything is going to take a long time.

That is like with our scriptures and understanding the meaning of God.

Old Jerusalem knew only God. He was one. HE only appeared to HIS people.

When Christ came it was hard for them to believe that there was someone else besides God and angels

"We knew your father and mother (most thought he was conceived out of wedlock), how can you be who you say?"

If Christ came to our people in Russia, (same way MGR did) what would His name be? Emmanuel Iosovich Kornov (wood worker)?

Would we say the same thing about Him?

Christ said "I WILL send you the Spirit of Truth, not all will accept HIM"

What IF MGR is the Spirit that Christ Promised?

The Word was just that until He became flesh, took on a name (that we pray to).

Why can't the Spirit do the same?

It's been almost 2000 years since we have received the gospel and the people that Christ came for still don't believe.

Are we headed in the same direction? Or we going in reverse?

You asked if I knew how much the S&L has become an idol?

Personally I don't worship it, it helps me to worship and receive understanding of the true God and Christ.

It makes me look harder for true understanding.

You don't think that the Jews/Hebrews think of you/us, Christians as heretics and idol worshipers?

The S&L was written in the dark?

OK try this- sit in a dark room (as if bind)

Get a piece of paper (about 4 inch square) and write (in straight lines, about 300 words) anything that comes to mind

Can you even imagine that?

EGK

You find a 12 year old and get him to draw, I don't know to many 12 year olds that can even draw a straight line.

My point is without the help of God, a physical man could not have done that!

Paul may God bless us to come to the true understanding of His will!

Hi Nad,

It was not me that said those words but Jesus Himself; (The Father has to draw people to Jesus)

John6

44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Nad let me ask you this.

Did Christ die for the whole world? John3:16

If MGR is the Spirit that Christ promised as you "what if" believe, what happen to Salvation thorugh-out the world? That would cut-off Salvation to the rest of the world and the Molokans would be guilty of that?

Also, God does not have favourites and no on is deserving of anything but death and hell, why would He change His mind and favour the man MGR with equallity or near equality with Himself?

Have another Blessed day matey :-)!

Paul

GoodDay · February 13, 2010

NAD.

I meant the Bible was writtern in the light (TRUTH)

The Spirit and Life was written in the Dark (The OPPOSITE OF TRUTH)

Don't believe in things because they seem incredible.

Don't believe in things because perhaps an "elder" came out in the "spirit" once upon a time and told some Molokans to put a book on the Altar. Why is thier even an "Altar" in the churches in the first place?

NAD,

Again, please line up everying with Scripture (The Holy Bible) to see for yourself if it's true. Don't ask the same elders as Fourvetta as they will tell you the same thing. You have the God given right to search out Biblical Scriptures. I can tell you do not worship the S and L, but please don't worship the man inside, there is no difference.

Joseph Smith "started" Morminism around the same time Maxcim was doing his stuff. Why do Mormons go out and evangalise thier falseness and Molokans hide thier falseness to themselves.

Which one of these belief systems is less correct than the other?

February 13, 2010

Matthew 24:24

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

Even the Anti-Christ can perform miracles, do not depend on signs and miracles to poiint you to God, always test to see if what these prophets are saying lines up with scripture. Do not believe in the prophecy first and then read the Bible with an eye to make it fit, come from the Bible first, the prophecy must fit what is said in scripture, not the other way round. Jesus Christ did perform miracles, but everything he did, said and was lined up with what scripture said. When he came he fufilled the covenant, the covenant was not twisted fufill him.

GoodDay · February 14, 2010

Matthew 24:24

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

Even the Anti-Christ can perform miracles, do not depend on signs and miracles to poiint you to God, always test to see if what these prophets are saying lines up with scripture. Do not believe in the prophecy first and then read the Bible with an eye to make it fit, come from the Bible first, the prophecy must fit what is said in scripture, not the other way round. Jesus Christ did perform miracles, but everything he did, said and was lined up with what scripture said. When he came he fufilled the covenant, the covenant was not twisted fufill him.

Good words of wisdom and great Scripture to back it up!

Thanks El Scorcho!

stevepiv · February 14, 2010

Christ said "I WILL send you the Spirit of Truth, not all will accept HIM"
What IF MGR is the Spirit that Christ Promised?

Here's a question Disciple asked fourvetta on another thread, but mystically fourvetta is taking a siesta.

NAD can you answer this:

A question.

1) John 14:16-17

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Maxim gavrilivoch's writings claim him to be the spirit of truth, as you are here implying. According to his claim and the above scripture, does this mean that maxim dwells in you?

stevepiv · February 15, 2010

As we can see the S&L, the wivestales, the so-called "elders" that teach the S&L and elevate that book to some standard of Scripture have done EXTREME damage.

NAD is calling into question GoodDay's understanding of the Trinity.

Paul your saying that the Father is calling us to the Son.
That puts a question to your understanding in the trinity.

Yet in NAD's same reply he makes the claim that possibly Maxim could be the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ promised to the Apostles and Us.

Christ said "I WILL send you the Spirit of Truth, not all will accept HIM"
What IF MGR is the Spirit that Christ Promised?

NAD is elevating a man Maxim into the Deity and Trinity.

To those reading, NAD is testifying to what he has learned and what he believes. This all has a trace back to the S&L.

Has NAD never read Acts Chapter 1 or Chapter 2?

Or the whole book of Acts?

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

It was also the man, maxim gavrilovitch rudometkin, who claimed he was:

----the book of life

----the book of the sun

----the bounded enclosures

----the chief conqueror

----the commander of all the universe

----the entrustor of faithful souls

----the eternal heir of christ's kingdom on earth

----the forefather of all the new Israel

----the god of the believers

----the heir to the complete universe

----the husband clothed with a garment down to the foot

----the king and prophet for the thousand years

----the king of new Israel

----life eternal

----the lord's divine messenger

----the man-child of the woman clothed in the sun

----the memory of god almighty

----the new heir of the world

----the new present day Moses

----the only leader

----the residuary of the universe

----the seal of the living god

----the second Job

----the seven-leveled stairway to the heavens

----Solomon's new heir and successor

----the symbol of restoration

----the third face

----the two-winged serene falcon

It was also the man, maxim gavrilovitch rudometkin, who claimed he was:

---the true Spirit, descended from the heavens from God (mgr 1:30:1)

---1st Lord and King of the Spirit of truth (mgr 1:31:8)

---this Spirit who is in person God and the King of new Israel (mgr 8:15:2)

---this Spirit of truth named Gelgel Akhmet Ulia (mgr 8:22:7)

---this true Spirit personified as himself, the man, mgr (mgr 8:26:9)

---Akhmet Akhmetovitch, which is the Spirit of truth (mgr 8:29:3)

---the new Ulia (mgr 9:16:10)

---the Spirit and the bride in the 3rd feature (mgr 9:22:7)

---the spirit of truth named Gelgel Akhmet Ulia (mgr 10:17:7)

---the new Spirit Ulia (mgr 12:9:0)

NAD923 · February 15, 2010

Easy Guys!

I'm not elevating MGR over God or Christ,

read my post again!

My point is, are we missing something about MGR?

The same way as the Jews missed their chance with Christ?

Yes we are lucky to have Jesus among us now, and that we have received that chance for salvation.

BUT what/who is this Spirit of Truth that the world can not receive?

It's not the Comforter because ALL can receive it/him(?)

WHAT IF?

What if MGR is what he claims to be?(is it the man or is it the Spirit claiming through a vessel?)

Are you sure you want to go that path?

Does Christ live in you?

Everyone will say YES. But He sent the SPIRIT to do that "..I will no longer be with you..."

"Receive HIM who I send..."

"I have not come for every one, I have come for the lost children of Israel(Jacob)"

Why does MGR claim to be the new Jacob? Isn't Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, or even Jesus higher ranked than Jacob?

He doesn't he claim to be any of those.

You would think if you're going to elevate yourself you'd go to the top(?).

Spiritually we can have anybody we want in us, God, Jesus, Apostles, Paul the Apostle, Maxim etc.

Didn't Christ say "..aren't you all gods?"

Why are we so hung up on destroying something that people believe?

Yes MGR makes some amazing claims, but is that him or is it the Spirit that's in him?

If you read one povist he is a hero and conquer the next he is crying and praying to be let loose/freed from the grasp of satan.

So does that not indicate that he is also a man that was suffering?

If you don't believe in the workings of the Spirit, there's probably no convincing you.

I have seen where a week man has become strong when the Spirit has come upon him.

Where a man in a wheel chair has got up and started to "jump" when the Spirit has come upon him,

then fell on floor when the Spirit left. That's just one.

Even Christ cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?"

So are we not flesh? "Flesh shall not inherit..." It's the Spirit we should be focusing on!

seeking_truth_1 · February 15, 2010

If you handle, acknowledge or in any give a nod to the s&l as anything other than heresy you ARE elevating mgr because within the pages of the s&l mgr elevates himself to that level

Easy Guys!
I'm not elevating MGR over God or Christ, read my post again!

What are you "missing" with mgr?

Do you or do you not agree with what he claims to be?

My point is, are we missing something about MGR?
The same way as the Jews missed their chance with Christ?

You really do not know your Bible like you think you do

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.John 1:14

We're not "lucky" Jesus was "created"...He's been around forever since the beginning

26 ¶ "But I will send you the Counselor ––the Spirit of truth. He will come to you from the Father and will tell you all about me.

27 And you must also tell others about me because you have been with me from the beginning. (John 15:26-27)

Yes we are lucky to have Jesus among us now, and that we have received that chance for salvation.
BUT what/who is this Spirit of Truth that the world can not receive?

It's not the Comforter because ALL can receive it/him(?)

What if mgr is insane?

He claims to be the Messiah..Do YOU believe that?

WHAT IF?
What if MGR is what he claims to be?(is it the man or is it the Spirit claiming through a vessel?)

Are you sure you want to go that path?

Yes and it has NOTHING to do with mgr and his claims to be the messiah

Does Christ live in you?

Why does mgr make those claims because he was of the Spirit of Anti-Christ

Satan did the EXACT same thing when he claimed he "would be like the Most High"

Everyone will say YES. But He sent the SPIRIT to do that "..I will no longer be with you..."
"Receive HIM who I send..."

"I have not come for every one, I have come for the lost children of Israel(Jacob)"

Why does MGR claim to be the new Jacob? Isn't Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, or even Jesus higher ranked than Jacob?

He doesn't he claim to be any of those.

You would think if you're going to elevate yourself you'd go to the top(?).

We can have the spirit of the Apostles living in us?

Where is that in Scripture?

Your beliefs will land you in Hell so this is your wake up call...

What are you going to do with it?

Christ said are you all not "gods"?

From the context he's not saying they are YHVH but judges or rulers

Spiritually we can have anybody we want in us, God, Jesus, Apostles, Paul the Apostle, Maxim etc.
Didn't Christ say "..aren't you all gods?"

Why are we so hung up on destroying something that people believe?

As stated before mgr made some outrageous claims just like Satan to be like the Most High

mgr sounds bi-polar

Yes MGR makes some amazing claims, but is that him or is it the Spirit that's in him?
If you read one povist he is a hero and conquer the next he is crying and praying to be let loose/freed from the grasp of satan.

So does that not indicate that he is also a man that was suffering?

Satan can do wonders and make his own do things in a supernatural way

Recall the account of Moses' meeting with pharaoh?

The magicians could conjure many of the miracles Moses performed

Just because they appear to be miraculous does not mean they are of God

If you don't believe in the workings of the Spirit, there's probably no convincing you.
I have seen where a week man has become strong when the Spirit has come upon him.

Where a man in a wheel chair has got up and started to "jump" when the Spirit has come upon him,

then fell on floor when the Spirit left. That's just one.

Easy Guys!

I'm not elevating MGR over God or Christ,

read my post again!

My point is, are we missing something about MGR?

The same way as the Jews missed their chance with Christ?

Yes we are lucky to have Jesus among us now, and that we have received that chance for salvation.

BUT what/who is this Spirit of Truth that the world can not receive?

It's not the Comforter because ALL can receive it/him(?)

WHAT IF?

What if MGR is what he claims to be?(is it the man or is it the Spirit claiming through a vessel?)

Are you sure you want to go that path?

Does Christ live in you?

Everyone will say YES. But He sent the SPIRIT to do that "..I will no longer be with you..."

"Receive HIM who I send..."

"I have not come for every one, I have come for the lost children of Israel(Jacob)"

Why does MGR claim to be the new Jacob? Isn't Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, or even Jesus higher ranked than Jacob?

He doesn't he claim to be any of those.

You would think if you're going to elevate yourself you'd go to the top(?).

Spiritually we can have anybody we want in us, God, Jesus, Apostles, Paul the Apostle, Maxim etc.

Didn't Christ say "..aren't you all gods?"

Why are we so hung up on destroying something that people believe?

Yes MGR makes some amazing claims, but is that him or is it the Spirit that's in him?

If you read one povist he is a hero and conquer the next he is crying and praying to be let loose/freed from the grasp of satan.

So does that not indicate that he is also a man that was suffering?

If you don't believe in the workings of the Spirit, there's probably no convincing you.

I have seen where a week man has become strong when the Spirit has come upon him.

Where a man in a wheel chair has got up and started to "jump" when the Spirit has come upon him,

then fell on floor when the Spirit left. That's just one.

Even Christ cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?"

So are we not flesh? "Flesh shall not inherit..." It's the Spirit we should be focusing on!

LTTBT · February 15, 2010

WHAT IF?

This can be a most dangerous question.

When I hear (or read this question) somebody is trying to justify something in thier own mind,

trying to reason like God (which aint going to happen).

All I know is MGR, S&L, or traditions of man, have NOTHING to do with my Salvation.

Our God was, is, and will be the same, there are no what if's when it comes to God.......

February 15, 2010

Thrusting with spirtual wives, and their replacements does not seem very spiritual, I don't remember Jesus doing that. Maxcim was obssessed with retribution and revenge on his spiritual wives. Jesus spoke about compassion and forgiveness, the messages seem at odds. Maxcim's rules for weddings require witnesses at the conjugal bedside to observe the consumation, when did Jesus mention this? Maxcim claims that his new gospel has never been heard anywhere on this earth, if Maxcim was really the manifestation of the Spirit how could this be so? The message of the Spirit should be the same as the message of God and Jesus Christ, and for that matter the same as the apostles who were set upon by the Spirit, almost 2000 years before Maxcim came on the scene.

Maxcim, was a coarse, arrogant, lustful, ignorant, man. That is all and nothing more, well he could be demon possessed, or posssibly be a representation of Satan himself so that's something I guess.

GoodDay · February 15, 2010

Easy Guys!

I'm not elevating MGR over God or Christ,

read my post again!

My point is, are we missing something about MGR?

The same way as the Jews missed their chance with Christ?

Yes we are lucky to have Jesus among us now, and that we have received that chance for salvation.

BUT what/who is this Spirit of Truth that the world can not receive?

It's not the Comforter because ALL can receive it/him(?)

WHAT IF?

What if MGR is what he claims to be?(is it the man or is it the Spirit claiming through a vessel?)

Are you sure you want to go that path?

Does Christ live in you?

Everyone will say YES. But He sent the SPIRIT to do that "..I will no longer be with you..."

"Receive HIM who I send..."

"I have not come for every one, I have come for the lost children of Israel(Jacob)"

Why does MGR claim to be the new Jacob? Isn't Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, or even Jesus higher ranked than Jacob?

He doesn't he claim to be any of those.

You would think if you're going to elevate yourself you'd go to the top(?).

Spiritually we can have anybody we want in us, God, Jesus, Apostles, Paul the Apostle, Maxim etc.

Didn't Christ say "..aren't you all gods?"

Why are we so hung up on destroying something that people believe?

Yes MGR makes some amazing claims, but is that him or is it the Spirit that's in him?

If you read one povist he is a hero and conquer the next he is crying and praying to be let loose/freed from the grasp of satan.

So does that not indicate that he is also a man that was suffering?

If you don't believe in the workings of the Spirit, there's probably no convincing you.

I have seen where a week man has become strong when the Spirit has come upon him.

Where a man in a wheel chair has got up and started to "jump" when the Spirit has come upon him,

then fell on floor when the Spirit left. That's just one.

Even Christ cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?"

So are we not flesh? "Flesh shall not inherit..." It's the Spirit we should be focusing on!

Hello Nad :-)

I am glad to see you are questioning your beliefs about mgr.

One simple question,

Why mgr, when Christ allready died for everyone? When He died he said "it is finished," it was just that; finished.

another simple question,

What does "finished." mean?

John 19

28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

NAD,

Please take the words of Jesus Christ serious.

Please pray and read the verse above.

Have a Blessed day

Paul

NAD923 · February 16, 2010

Easy Guys!

I'm not elevating MGR over God or Christ,

read my post again!

My point is, are we missing something about MGR?

The same way as the Jews missed their chance with Christ?

Yes we are lucky to have Jesus among us now, and that we have received that chance for salvation.

BUT what/who is this Spirit of Truth that the world can not receive?

It's not the Comforter because ALL can receive it/him(?)

WHAT IF?

What if MGR is what he claims to be?(is it the man or is it the Spirit claiming through a vessel?)

Are you sure you want to go that path?

Does Christ live in you?

Everyone will say YES. But He sent the SPIRIT to do that "..I will no longer be with you..."

"Receive HIM who I send..."

"I have not come for every one, I have come for the lost children of Israel(Jacob)"

Why does MGR claim to be the new Jacob? Isn't Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, or even Jesus higher ranked than Jacob?

He doesn't he claim to be any of those.

You would think if you're going to elevate yourself you'd go to the top(?).

Spiritually we can have anybody we want in us, God, Jesus, Apostles, Paul the Apostle, Maxim etc.

Didn't Christ say "..aren't you all gods?"

Why are we so hung up on destroying something that people believe?

Yes MGR makes some amazing claims, but is that him or is it the Spirit that's in him?

If you read one povist he is a hero and conquer the next he is crying and praying to be let loose/freed from the grasp of satan.

So does that not indicate that he is also a man that was suffering?

If you don't believe in the workings of the Spirit, there's probably no convincing you.

I have seen where a week man has become strong when the Spirit has come upon him.

Where a man in a wheel chair has got up and started to "jump" when the Spirit has come upon him,

then fell on floor when the Spirit left. That's just one.

Even Christ cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?"

So are we not flesh? "Flesh shall not inherit..." It's the Spirit we should be focusing on!

Hello Nad :-)

I am glad to see you are questioning your beliefs about mgr.

One simple question,

Why mgr, when Christ already died for everyone? When He died he said "it is finished," it was just that; finished.

another simple question,

What does "finished." mean?

John 19

28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

NAD,

Please take the words of Jesus Christ serious.

Please pray and read the verse above.

Have a Blessed day

Paul

Paul,

What translation is that from?

From what I remember (I'll need to check) He was given the wine and He said "I shall not drink until I am in My fathers house"

"It is finished" -In Russian it says "Vcie da bydit" "Let it all be done"

Let everything that was promised, said and prophesied start it's course. Next step if you like.

He took the next step by opening to John the last times, He came suffered, died and resurected and freed the rightous from hell and gave

a chance of salvation to all that call onto Him, that was his plan. Next step was to find a lamb like unto himself.

Thats why "What if?"

I pray for you and Steve every day!

I want for us to be brothers not flesh but Spirit.

NAD

GoodDay · February 16, 2010

Easy Guys!

I'm not elevating MGR over God or Christ,

read my post again!

My point is, are we missing something about MGR?

The same way as the Jews missed their chance with Christ?

Yes we are lucky to have Jesus among us now, and that we have received that chance for salvation.

BUT what/who is this Spirit of Truth that the world can not receive?

It's not the Comforter because ALL can receive it/him(?)

WHAT IF?

What if MGR is what he claims to be?(is it the man or is it the Spirit claiming through a vessel?)

Are you sure you want to go that path?

Does Christ live in you?

Everyone will say YES. But He sent the SPIRIT to do that "..I will no longer be with you..."

"Receive HIM who I send..."

"I have not come for every one, I have come for the lost children of Israel(Jacob)"

Why does MGR claim to be the new Jacob? Isn't Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, or even Jesus higher ranked than Jacob?

He doesn't he claim to be any of those.

You would think if you're going to elevate yourself you'd go to the top(?).

Spiritually we can have anybody we want in us, God, Jesus, Apostles, Paul the Apostle, Maxim etc.

Didn't Christ say "..aren't you all gods?"

Why are we so hung up on destroying something that people believe?

Yes MGR makes some amazing claims, but is that him or is it the Spirit that's in him?

If you read one povist he is a hero and conquer the next he is crying and praying to be let loose/freed from the grasp of satan.

So does that not indicate that he is also a man that was suffering?

If you don't believe in the workings of the Spirit, there's probably no convincing you.

I have seen where a week man has become strong when the Spirit has come upon him.

Where a man in a wheel chair has got up and started to "jump" when the Spirit has come upon him,

then fell on floor when the Spirit left. That's just one.

Even Christ cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?"

So are we not flesh? "Flesh shall not inherit..." It's the Spirit we should be focusing on!

Hello Nad :-)

I am glad to see you are questioning your beliefs about mgr.

One simple question,

Why mgr, when Christ already died for everyone? When He died he said "it is finished," it was just that; finished.

another simple question,

What does "finished." mean?

John 19

28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

NAD,

Please take the words of Jesus Christ serious.

Please pray and read the verse above.

Have a Blessed day

Paul

Paul,

What translation is that from?

From what I remember (I'll need to check) He was given the wine and He said "I shall not drink until I am in My fathers house"

"It is finished" -In Russian it says "Vcie da bydit" "Let it all be done"

Let everything that was promised, said and prophesied start it's course. Next step if you like.

He took the next step by opening to John the last times, He came suffered, died and resurected and freed the rightous from hell and gave

a chance of salvation to all that call onto Him, that was his plan. Next step was to find a lamb like unto himself.

Thats why "What if?"

I pray for you and Steve every day!

I want for us to be brothers not flesh but Spirit.

NAD

NAD,

Here is the Russian Translation for you and others to see from John 19:30

От Иоанна 19:30

30Когда же Иисус вкусил уксуса, сказал: совершилось! И, преклонив главу, предал дух.

совершилось=accomplished, finished.

Are you saying that people cannot come to Christ anymore. Are you saying that it has been cut off to all exept for Molokans.

Were you called to Christ or do you feel that you are saved because you are a Molokan?

You are very "ify" about this maxcim stuff NAD, why is that? It's a good thing actually but them who's saviour is Jesus Christ alone are not "ify" about that. It's a definate, it's something believers know and do not have to live "wondering" if they will make it to heaven. Read 1 John 3

What will you do on this day;

Romans 14

11It is written:

" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,

'every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will confess to God.' " 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

You must give account of yourself.

Wouldn't you rather be someone that the Lord recognises rather then "wonder," if you'll make it wearing nothing but a "I am with Maxcim" shirt on?.

If you pray in the name of Macxim NAD, please do not inlcude us in those prayers. They evaporate quicker then they can be thought up.

Please NAD,

Read the Bible and study it yourself-everything you need is in there

Paul

GoodDay · February 23, 2010

Nad,

Did you get a chance to read this post?

Also, read this from 1 John 5 KJV and see what you make of it?

Especially number 7. I believe this to be written by John (Gospel)

6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Easy Guys!

I'm not elevating MGR over God or Christ,

read my post again!

My point is, are we missing something about MGR?

The same way as the Jews missed their chance with Christ?

Yes we are lucky to have Jesus among us now, and that we have received that chance for salvation.

BUT what/who is this Spirit of Truth that the world can not receive?

It's not the Comforter because ALL can receive it/him(?)

WHAT IF?

What if MGR is what he claims to be?(is it the man or is it the Spirit claiming through a vessel?)

Are you sure you want to go that path?

Does Christ live in you?

Everyone will say YES. But He sent the SPIRIT to do that "..I will no longer be with you..."

"Receive HIM who I send..."

"I have not come for every one, I have come for the lost children of Israel(Jacob)"

Why does MGR claim to be the new Jacob? Isn't Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, or even Jesus higher ranked than Jacob?

He doesn't he claim to be any of those.

You would think if you're going to elevate yourself you'd go to the top(?).

Spiritually we can have anybody we want in us, God, Jesus, Apostles, Paul the Apostle, Maxim etc.

Didn't Christ say "..aren't you all gods?"

Why are we so hung up on destroying something that people believe?

Yes MGR makes some amazing claims, but is that him or is it the Spirit that's in him?

If you read one povist he is a hero and conquer the next he is crying and praying to be let loose/freed from the grasp of satan.

So does that not indicate that he is also a man that was suffering?

If you don't believe in the workings of the Spirit, there's probably no convincing you.

I have seen where a week man has become strong when the Spirit has come upon him.

Where a man in a wheel chair has got up and started to "jump" when the Spirit has come upon him,

then fell on floor when the Spirit left. That's just one.

Even Christ cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?"

So are we not flesh? "Flesh shall not inherit..." It's the Spirit we should be focusing on!

Hello Nad :-)

I am glad to see you are questioning your beliefs about mgr.

One simple question,

Why mgr, when Christ already died for everyone? When He died he said "it is finished," it was just that; finished.

another simple question,

What does "finished." mean?

John 19

28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

NAD,

Please take the words of Jesus Christ serious.

Please pray and read the verse above.

Have a Blessed day

Paul

Paul,

What translation is that from?

From what I remember (I'll need to check) He was given the wine and He said "I shall not drink until I am in My fathers house"

"It is finished" -In Russian it says "Vcie da bydit" "Let it all be done"

Let everything that was promised, said and prophesied start it's course. Next step if you like.

He took the next step by opening to John the last times, He came suffered, died and resurected and freed the rightous from hell and gave

a chance of salvation to all that call onto Him, that was his plan. Next step was to find a lamb like unto himself.

Thats why "What if?"

I pray for you and Steve every day!

I want for us to be brothers not flesh but Spirit.

NAD

NAD,

Here is the Russian Translation for you and others to see from John 19:30

От Иоанна 19:30

30Когда же Иисус вкусил уксуса, сказал: совершилось! И, преклонив главу, предал дух.

совершилось=accomplished, finished.

Are you saying that people cannot come to Christ anymore. Are you saying that it has been cut off to all exept for Molokans.

Were you called to Christ or do you feel that you are saved because you are a Molokan?

You are very "ify" about this maxcim stuff NAD, why is that? It's a good thing actually but them who's saviour is Jesus Christ alone are not "ify" about that. It's a definate, it's something believers know and do not have to live "wondering" if they will make it to heaven. Read 1 John 3

What will you do on this day;

Romans 14

11It is written:

" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,

'every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will confess to God.' " 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

You must give account of yourself.

Wouldn't you rather be someone that the Lord recognises rather then "wonder," if you'll make it wearing nothing but a "I am with Maxcim" shirt on?.

If you pray in the name of Macxim NAD, please do not inlcude us in those prayers. They evaporate quicker then they can be thought up.

Please NAD,

Read the Bible and study it yourself-everything you need is in there

Paul

LTTBT · February 24, 2010

John 14:9 (New International Version)

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

nuff said about this topic

EGK · February 25, 2010

John 14:9 (New International Version)

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

nuff said about this topic

[/quote)

Wooo there partner!

You forgot John 1:18; John 5:37; John 4:24; Luke 24:39-40; Numbers 23:19

"NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANYTIME; the only begotten son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared HIM." John 1:18

"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. YE HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE." John 5:37

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth." John 4: 24

"Behold my hands and my feet: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. AND WHEN HE HAD THUS SPOKEN, HE SHOWED THEM HIS HANDS AND HIS FEET" Luke 24:39-40

"God is not a MAN, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and he not make it good?" Numbers 23:19

EGK

February 25, 2010

EGK,

Why is it when a passage of the Bible doesn't agree with you're view of God it has translation errors or is somehow erroneus, yet you liberally quote verses from the Bible to help you sell your version of God. How can you tell which verses are accurate and which are translated incorrectly, the entire Bible has been translated, and rewritten many times, but somehow you can divine the accurate passages from the ones God messed up on. Isn't it possible that the Bible as it is today is the one that God wanted us to have, that maybe he guided it the whole way (if he didn't what good is it)? You are attending BSF, have you pointed out to them the translation errors? I will absolutley give you credit for putting Jesus at the heart of your salvation, I agree with that, but I would like to know a couple of things, do you see Maxcim as a prophet, or as a sick man who tried to take glory that wasn't his? How do you view Molokan's rejection of other Christians, and not allowing them to attend church or intermarry? Is church required to be in Russian, and if so why?

EGK · February 26, 2010

EGK,

Why is it when a passage of the Bible doesn't agree with you're view of God it has translation errors or is somehow erroneus, yet you liberally quote verses from the Bible to help you sell your version of God. How can you tell which verses are accurate and which are translated incorrectly, the entire Bible has been translated, and rewritten many times, but somehow you can divine the accurate passages from the ones God messed up on. Isn't it possible that the Bible as it is today is the one that God wanted us to have, that maybe he guided it the whole way (if he didn't what good is it)? You are attending BSF, have you pointed out to them the translation errors? I will absolutley give you credit for putting Jesus at the heart of your salvation, I agree with that, but I would like to know a couple of things, do you see Maxcim as a prophet, or as a sick man who tried to take glory that wasn't his? How do you view Molokan's rejection of other Christians, and not allowing them to attend church or intermarry? Is church required to be in Russian, and if so why?

El Scorcho Grande;

What I find erroneous for all of us to do, including myself, is to take one verse or a part of a thought and to make it into a full fledged theological fact. If you look at John 14:9 standing alone it does state,"he that hath seen me hath seen the Father. But in fact the whole conversation between Phillip, Thomas and Jesus runs from verse 1 through 14 and it is Jesus Christ's farewell sermon to them. It is a common known fact that the books of the bible were not written with chapter and verse dividers but this is a latter addition to the bible. Also, if you ever have time take the synoptic gospels and compare the happenings of the trial, death and ressurection of Jesus. In doing this you will find some really glaring differences in all of them telling the same story. It is like a car wreck with four differnt witnesses, all see the same car wreck but all may have seen it differently. That is why you need more than one verse to make a theological fact a certainty.

I will try to answer your questions as clearly as I can. I can not in good conscience accept anything that Maxcim has penned. I leave the judgement of the man to God, that is His business, but his writings I have found to be unscriptural. I do not see a rejection of other christians by Christian Molokans but a rejection of ideas that may be contrary to the accepted norm of the individuals church. (Study early first and second century christianity and you will find a large variety of beliefs held by professing christians) Intermarriage is a personal preference of the individuals, but it is a proven fact that those who marry within the same church environment statistically have longer lasting and better relations between mates. No, church in my opinion does not have any specific language requirement. It is though awkward for one to speak Aramaic in an English language church.

EGK

GoodDay · February 26, 2010

I will try to answer your questions as clearly as I can. I can not in good conscience accept anything that Maxcim has penned. I leave the judgement of the man to God, that is His business, but his writings I have found to be unscriptural.
Does it bother you when they are singing about the men in that book or words from the book during a service that should be giving glory to God?

I do not see a rejection of other christians by Christian Molokans but a rejection of ideas that may be contrary to the accepted norm of the individuals church.

I have never heard that? All your saying is that they are putting down another way if worship because they think thiers is superior?

(Study early first and second century christianity and you will find a large variety of beliefs held by professing christians)

Intermarriage is a personal preference of the individuals, but it is a proven fact that those who marry within the same church environment statistically have longer lasting and better relations between mates.

I disagree and I thought you would have followed Scripture on this one- It's not OUR preference who we marry, but God's. If he wants a Russian person to marry a Chinese person and they are equally yoked, they as Christians would have to and want to follow that calling. BUT the Molokan churches of today would not follow God in that and would ban the couple so they must go elsewhere which ends up being better anyway in todays Molokansism. Also- Statistical marriage hold no weight. There are endless numbers of Molokans who have been devorced. Just as it is with Non-Molokans. Many that remarry, end up finding a Non-Molokan Christian spouse because that was who God had planned for them in first place? I have never heard that and I don't see that as God's way. Why do the "spiritual blessings" always happen with marriages that last and to them that do not? Is it the couple? maybe, but perhaps it was the spirit that pushed the parent into pushing the kids into the marriage?

No, church in my opinion does not have any specific language requirement. It is though awkward for one to speak Aramaic in an English language church.

You had an intresting way of answering these questions EKG :-)..Are you saying it's wrong for the molokan churches of today to force russian upon the attendees?

Thanks

Paul

EGK

EGK · February 27, 2010

I will try to answer your questions as clearly as I can. I can not in good conscience accept anything that Maxcim has penned. I leave the judgement of the man to God, that is His business, but his writings I have found to be unscriptural.
Does it bother you when they are singing about the men in that book or words from the book during a service that should be giving glory to God?

I do not see a rejection of other christians by Christian Molokans but a rejection of ideas that may be contrary to the accepted norm of the individuals church.

I have never heard that? All your saying is that they are putting down another way if worship because they think thiers is superior?

(Study early first and second century christianity and you will find a large variety of beliefs held by professing christians)

Intermarriage is a personal preference of the individuals, but it is a proven fact that those who marry within the same church environment statistically have longer lasting and better relations between mates.

I disagree and I thought you would have followed Scripture on this one- It's not OUR preference who we marry, but God's. If he wants a Russian person to marry a Chinese person and they are equally yoked, they as Christians would have to and want to follow that calling. BUT the Molokan churches of today would not follow God in that and would ban the couple so they must go elsewhere which ends up being better anyway in todays Molokansism. Also- Statistical marriage hold no weight. There are endless numbers of Molokans who have been devorced. Just as it is with Non-Molokans. Many that remarry, end up finding a Non-Molokan Christian spouse because that was who God had planned for them in first place? I have never heard that and I don't see that as God's way. Why do the "spiritual blessings" always happen with marriages that last and to them that do not? Is it the couple? maybe, but perhaps it was the spirit that pushed the parent into pushing the kids into the marriage?

No, church in my opinion does not have any specific language requirement. It is though awkward for one to speak Aramaic in an English language church.

You had an intresting way of answering these questions EKG :-)..Are you saying it's wrong for the molokan churches of today to force russian upon the attendees?

Thanks

Paul

EGK

Paul;

In answer to your first question, "Yes", it does bother me.

Second, have you ever seen or heard of a Molokan going to a Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, Methodist, Seventh Day Adventist, Pentecostal web site and calling them "Wolves in sheeps clothing, deceivers, heretics etc. as some do on this site? Molokans have traditionally had very good relations with their neighbors, here in the USA, Mexico and in Russia, Persia and elsewhere. Tell me, how many people in American history have come here just to be left alone and to worship God in their own way? I would say that this is one of the founding fundamentals of the country in which you live. I would think all christian groups think they have a more superior way than others, if not then why are there so many of them?

As to the marriage question, "Do you have or ever had kids that were looking to get married?" Until you have children in this situation you can only guess what goes on in the hearts and minds of the parents. Have you ever tried to push a child who has his or her mind made up as to what they feel is the right thing to do, "Good Luck"!! I am sorry but statistics do count. If you look at all the children born to molokan families since their arrival here in America and see how many have chosen to marry non-molokans and then compare it to active molokan families you can see plainly how many have made up their own minds as to who to marry. Check out ancestry.com on their molokan page.

Paul, as to the language question. Have you ever been to a Spanish, Chinese or Korean church of any denomination? What language do you think they speak? Why do you not find fault in them but only in the molokan church?

I would like to ask you a question also. If you are no longer a member of a molokan church, why do you care about what molokans do? Is it not theirs and mine lawful and fundamental right as an american citizen to worship freely without interference. I do not see molokans trying to change the ways others believe and worship, do you. Molokans do not interfere with others ways and beliefs, so why should others interfere in theirs?

God be with you;

EGK

seeking_truth_1 · February 27, 2010

Oh my...

Putting down the way another person worships?

No

Calling one a deceiver and/or wolf for what they are is more accurate because your "way" is not The Way

You slink in with this "hey brother" or "my friend" patter in an attempt to ingratiate yourself looking to draw people away from the Truth

"Here read this book that calls into question the validity of Scripture"

"Here read this book that calls into question the Deity of Jesus"

You have an agenda and have demonstrated it by your actions and comments more than once

You deny the veracity of Scripture and advocate another Jesus that is not found in Scripture

Now you fein hurt because you're being called on it?

You had "have traditionally had very good relations with their neighbors" because they were kept at arms length

Core tenets of molokanism were NEVER discussed with those "ne-nash neighbors" especially those who are Christians because if you had, they too would identify molokanism in the 21st century as a cult too

Mormons like molokans say they are "Christians" and are willing to discuss their "faith" only to a point until the ugly truth comes out and then yell foul when being called on the "carpet" so to speak

"You're bashing..."

"If you don't like it leave..."

"What do you care...? It's a free country"

"Why can't you just leave us alone?"

When molokans are pressed regading their unabashed racism they say "Have you ever been to a Spanish, Chinese or Korean church of any denomination? What language do you think they speak?"

That is RIDICULOUS to dodge the real issue by making it a "choice" issue

russian is used as a tool to maintain control over the people by keeping them in the dark

People are made to jump through hoops to learn a language so they'll NEVER be able to rightly divide the Word and contrast it with the garbage being taught within molokanism

As to Attending an "alternate language" Christian Church...I've done it and GUESS WHAT they made accomodations for me

The worship was in the "alternate language" but again "GUESS WHAT" it DIDN'T matter because it WASN'T about the language being their "god" or idol" like it is in molokanism...Were were worshipping the SAME God in Spirit and in Truth regardless of the language

That CANNOT be said by the cult of molokanism

I WAS welcomed and made to feel comfortable and treated with respect and brotherly kindness and are STILL welcomed to come back at ANY TIME

That is NOT TRUE of the cult of molokanism.

These people would treat molokans in a similar fashion but i can GUARANTEE the cult of molokanism WOULD NOT reciprocate

Why?

Because the cult of molokanism DOES NOT welcome "ne-nash" based PURELY upon race or ethnicity

That's the "dirty little secret" that you will need to deal with and no longer can sweep under the hand crafted persian "holy of holies" muslim prayer rug

What's more important?

The language or a saving knowledge of Jesus

The culture or a saving knowledge of Jesus

The style or worship or a saving knowledge of Jesus

The food or a saving knowledge of Jesus

The endogamy or a saving knowledge of Jesus

The "new israel" or a saving knowledge of Jesus

The "extra book" or a saving knowledge of Jesus

I think you know the answer to that

It's really not about you at this point so your arguement of "why do you care about what molokans do?" does not apply

It's for those like stevepiv or goodday or kevin that we're on the way to Hell because of your "faith"

I will try to answer your questions as clearly as I can. I can not in good conscience accept anything that Maxcim has penned. I leave the judgement of the man to God, that is His business, but his writings I have found to be unscriptural.
Does it bother you when they are singing about the men in that book or words from the book during a service that should be giving glory to God?

I do not see a rejection of other christians by Christian Molokans but a rejection of ideas that may be contrary to the accepted norm of the individuals church.

I have never heard that? All your saying is that they are putting down another way if worship because they think thiers is superior?

(Study early first and second century christianity and you will find a large variety of beliefs held by professing christians)

Intermarriage is a personal preference of the individuals, but it is a proven fact that those who marry within the same church environment statistically have longer lasting and better relations between mates.

I disagree and I thought you would have followed Scripture on this one- It's not OUR preference who we marry, but God's. If he wants a Russian person to marry a Chinese person and they are equally yoked, they as Christians would have to and want to follow that calling. BUT the Molokan churches of today would not follow God in that and would ban the couple so they must go elsewhere which ends up being better anyway in todays Molokansism. Also- Statistical marriage hold no weight. There are endless numbers of Molokans who have been devorced. Just as it is with Non-Molokans. Many that remarry, end up finding a Non-Molokan Christian spouse because that was who God had planned for them in first place? I have never heard that and I don't see that as God's way. Why do the "spiritual blessings" always happen with marriages that last and to them that do not? Is it the couple? maybe, but perhaps it was the spirit that pushed the parent into pushing the kids into the marriage?

No, church in my opinion does not have any specific language requirement. It is though awkward for one to speak Aramaic in an English language church.

You had an intresting way of answering these questions EKG :-)..Are you saying it's wrong for the molokan churches of today to force russian upon the attendees?

Thanks

Paul

EGK

Paul;

In answer to your first question, "Yes", it does bother me.

Second, have you ever seen or heard of a Molokan going to a Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, Methodist, Seventh Day Adventist, Pentecostal web site and calling them "Wolves in sheeps clothing, deceivers, heretics etc. as some do on this site? Molokans have traditionally had very good relations with their neighbors, here in the USA, Mexico and in Russia, Persia and elsewhere. Tell me, how many people in American history have come here just to be left alone and to worship God in their own way? I would say that this is one of the founding fundamentals of the country in which you live. I would think all christian groups think they have a more superior way than others, if not then why are there so many of them?

As to the marriage question, "Do you have or ever had kids that were looking to get married?" Until you have children in this situation you can only guess what goes on in the hearts and minds of the parents. Have you ever tried to push a child who has his or her mind made up as to what they feel is the right thing to do, "Good Luck"!! I am sorry but statistics do count. If you look at all the children born to molokan families since their arrival here in America and see how many have chosen to marry non-molokans and then compare it to active molokan families you can see plainly how many have made up their own minds as to who to marry. Check out ancestry.com on their molokan page.

Paul, as to the language question. Have you ever been to a Spanish, Chinese or Korean church of any denomination? What language do you think they speak? Why do you not find fault in them but only in the molokan church?

I would like to ask you a question also. If you are no longer a member of a molokan church, why do you care about what molokans do? Is it not theirs and mine lawful and fundamental right as an american citizen to worship freely without interference. I do not see molokans trying to change the ways others believe and worship, do you. Molokans do not interfere with others ways and beliefs, so why should others interfere in theirs?

God be with you;

EGK

EGK · February 28, 2010

The Cyber Bully at his best!

Funny thing with all of your rhetoric you cannot even answer a challenge to provide facts to back up your claims:

!. Where in scripture is it required to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ to receive salvation?

2. Where in scripture is Jesus Christ called, "God the son?"

As a hint to help you, look at 1 John 5:7-8, But oh by the way, this was not in the original text but was added by a scribe at a later date ( it is not found in any Greek manuscript until the 11th century). Well how about another trinitarian mainstay, Matthew 28:19, Oh I forgot another scribal addition. But you would not have known this unless the Pope sent you an encylical to set you straight on what is the correct doctrine to believe. Sorry, I tried to help!

EGK

seeking_truth_1 · February 28, 2010

Still wearing blinders I see....

I've pointed to Isaiah 9 and you ignore it

I've pointed to Luke 2 and you ignore it

I've pointed to Revelation 1 & 2 and you ignore it

I've pointed to John 1 and you ignore it

What more do you want?

The Cyber Bully at his best!

Funny thing with all of your rhetoric you cannot even answer a challenge to provide facts to back up your claims:

!. Where in scripture is it required to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ to receive salvation?

2. Where in scripture is Jesus Christ called, "God the son?"

As a hint to help you, look at 1 John 5:7-8, But oh by the way, this was not in the original text but was added by a scribe at a later date ( it is not found in any Greek manuscript until the 11th century). Well how about another trinitarian mainstay, Matthew 28:19, Oh I forgot another scribal addition. But you would not have known this unless the Pope sent you an encylical to set you straight on what is the correct doctrine to believe. Sorry, I tried to help!

EGK

February 28, 2010

How about answering his question for starters.

Still wearing blinders I see....

I've pointed to Isaiah 9 and you ignore it

I've pointed to Luke 2 and you ignore it

I've pointed to Revelation 1 & 2 and you ignore it

I've pointed to John 1 and you ignore it

What more do you want?

The Cyber Bully at his best!

Funny thing with all of your rhetoric you cannot even answer a challenge to provide facts to back up your claims:

!. Where in scripture is it required to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ to receive salvation?

2. Where in scripture is Jesus Christ called, "God the son?"

As a hint to help you, look at 1 John 5:7-8, But oh by the way, this was not in the original text but was added by a scribe at a later date ( it is not found in any Greek manuscript until the 11th century). Well how about another trinitarian mainstay, Matthew 28:19, Oh I forgot another scribal addition. But you would not have known this unless the Pope sent you an encylical to set you straight on what is the correct doctrine to believe. Sorry, I tried to help!

EGK

seeking_truth_1 · February 28, 2010

I have answered time and time again unfortunately EGK doesn't like the answers

This all comes down thoe who Jesus is

Many groups acknowledge Jesus as a historic figure or perhaps somehow associated with God but not Deity

The problem with those views is that if Jesus is anything less than Deity His life could not be perfect and therefore His death and resurection are insufficient to be a propitiation for sin

EGK · March 1, 2010

I have answered time and time again unfortunately EGK doesn't like the answers

This all comes down thoe who Jesus is

Many groups acknowledge Jesus as a historic figure or perhaps somehow associated with God but not Deity

The problem with those views is that if Jesus is anything less than Deity His life could not be perfect and therefore His death and resurection are insufficient to be a propitiation for sin

EGK · March 1, 2010

I have answered time and time again unfortunately EGK doesn't like the answers

This all comes down thoe who Jesus is

Many groups acknowledge Jesus as a historic figure or perhaps somehow associated with God but not Deity

The problem with those views is that if Jesus is anything less than Deity His life could not be perfect and therefore His death and resurection are insufficient to be a propitiation for sin

I've pointed, is that your answer to these two questions?

Did God sin that He requires a God for propitiation of sin? God is immortal, he cannot die! Man sinned, God cannot sin.

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by MAN came death, by MAN came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterwqrd they that are Christ's at his coming." 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

EGK

seeking_truth_1 · March 1, 2010

"10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." (Revelation 1:10-18)

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. (Acts 20:27-31)

Wolfie...

When did God die?

God has blood?

EGK · March 3, 2010

"10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." (Revelation 1:10-18)

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. (Acts 20:27-31)

Wolfie...

When did God die?

God has blood?

Wolfie.... I kind of like that...Thanks!

Reread previous post; "God is immortal he cannot die"

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amwn." 1 Tim 6: 16

God is a Spirit, a Spirit does not bleed; "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship Him in spirit and truth." John 4:24

More to come.........

EGK

seeking_truth_1 · March 3, 2010

You say God is Spirit..I agree

But how can you reconcile the passages?

You're not going to pull a FV and say it's "spiritual"

Someone certainly died and someone certainly had blood

Again, please read...

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (Revelation 1:11)

18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." (Revelation 1:18)

EGK · March 4, 2010

You say God is Spirit..I agree

But how can you reconcile the passages?

You're not going to pull a FV and say it's "spiritual"

Someone certainly died and someone certainly had blood

Again, please read...

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (Revelation 1:11)

18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." (Revelation 1:18)

"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and death." Rev 1:18

This is Jesus, "Who is dead." This cannot be "the Almighty God the Father." If God Almighty can die, the universe and man are in much more trouble than we ever knew. God is immortal which means "deathless." "Mortal" means "appointed to death." (you and me) Jesus was mortal. Hebrews 9:27-28 was speaking of Jesus when it says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die... So Christ was once offered." Jesus was mortal therefore, "appointed unto death."

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever, Amen" 1 Timothy 1:17

The eternal God who is invisible to men is "the only wise God" and He only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16) But "our Savior Jesus Christ" hath "abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" 2 Timothy 1: 10

Explain to me your interpretation of Matthew 27:46

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying E'lI, E'LI, Lama sabachthani, that is to say, MY GOD, MY GOD, why hast thou forsaken me? "

Does God have a God? Can God for sake himself?

EGK

seeking_truth_1 · March 4, 2010

Who is the Alpha & The Omega?

He is speaking in the verse

EGK · March 5, 2010

Who is the Alpha & The Omega?

He is speaking in the verse

Let us start at Revelation 1: 1-3:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him, to shew unto his servants things which shortly must come to pass; and hhe sent it by his angel unto his servant John:" Rev 1: 1-3

Note the progression of the revelation here; first it is a revelation from God to Jesus, Jesus to his angel, from Jesus's angel to John.

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY." Rev 1: 8

" Here is a tremendous description of the God in whom we trust and whom we adore.

He is alpha and omega. Alpha is the first letter and omega the last of the Greek alphabet; and the phrase alpha to omega indicates completeness. God is he who is and who was and who is to come. That is to say, he is eternal. He was before time began; he is now; and he will be when time ends. He has been the God of all who have trusted in him; he is the God in whom at this present moment we can put our trust; and there can be no event and no time in the future which can separate us from him. God is the almighty. the word almighty is pantokrator which describes the one who has dominion over all things." Revelation of John, Volume 1, William Barclay

The Alpha and Omega is found four times in the book of Revelation and each time it is God Almighty speaking. "Almighty" is El Shaddai in Hebrew and is spoken of the Lord God 56 times in the Bible, including 8 times in Revelation. Jesus is never one time called "Almighty" in scripture. He is "mighty" but only God his Father is "Almighty".

Thanks, I learned and even changed my view on the Alpha and Omega, I used to think it meant Jesus, with the Alpha and Omega showing a definite beginning and end, but I learned that was wrong. It is God the Father, the Lord God Almighty. It is Jesus who is speaking in Revelation 1:18, because verse 13 says it is the"Son of man". God is not the Son of man, God cannot be a Son, only a Father.

My Turn, have you looked up Matthew 27:46 yet? I would really like to get your perspective on this.

EGK

EGK · March 6, 2010

Still wearing blinders I see....

I've pointed to Isaiah 9 and you ignore it

I've pointed to Luke 2 and you ignore it

I've pointed to Revelation 1 & 2 and you ignore it

I've pointed to John 1 and you ignore it

What more do you want?

This is Wolfie here;

Let me go over Isaiah 9:6, I think this is the verse you are referring to;

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

This is a great prophecy concerning Jesus, "a child, "a son". We must see in it all that Isaiah is saying, but we must not read into it more than Isaiah is saying. Yes, he is, "The mighty" but not ALMIGHTY. Yes, he is the everlasting Father of everything that HIS FATHER has given him. (John 6:39) The son is definitely not his own father. The word "everlasting" in this verse is the Hebrew word "Ad" (#5703 Strongs) and means "terminus or "duration." It is taken from the primary root word "Adah" (#5710 Strongs) which means to "to advance or continue." (From this point on). The only other time this word "Ad" is used in the O.T. is Habakkuk 3:6 "The everlasting mountains were scattered." Neither the "son" nor the mountains were in eternity past, but they shall "continue". When Isaiah, Habakkuk and all O.T. writers speak of the "everlasting God", it is the Hebrew word "Olam" (#5769 Strongs); and it means "to the vanishing point," "time out of mind past or future," "eternity" (Gen. 21: 33, Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 40: 28, Jeremiah 10:10, Habakkuk 3:6).

Do you see the difference? Remember Paul's words "To us there is but one God, the Father.... Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge" (1 Corinthians 8:6-7). One note of caution. Some will try to apply the word "everlasting" (Olam)" to the Messiah in Micah 5:2 but this is a mistake.

"But thou, Bethlehelm... out of thee shall he come forth unto ME that is to be the ruler in Israel: WHOSE GOINGS forth have been from old, from everlasting."

The word "everlasting" in this verse is Olam but it does not refer to the Messiah but to "ME", the eternal God. Notice the phrase "shall he come forth unto "ME". The messiah's "coming forth" was to be in Bethlehelm but the eternal God's "going forth" had been "from old", from eternity. To see for sure that "from of old" speaks of God and not the future Messiah look at Chapter 7, verse 20:

"Thou (God) wilt perform the truth...which thou hast sworn unto our fathers FROM THE DAYS OF OLD". (This is the same terminology and Micah is referring to the eternal God)

Jesus' declaration to Mary Magdalene at the tomb:

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not: for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to MY BRETHERN, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY FATHER, and YOUR FATHER; and to MY GOD, and YOUR GOD" (John 20:17)

This was the resurrected Christ speaking to Mary; and if he were Almighty God, God the Son, or the eternal Father, this would have been an ideal time to say it."

Also remember God is never a PRINCE, HE IS ALWAYS A KING!!!!!

EGK

Quotations taken from Joel W Hemphill

seeking_truth_1 · March 7, 2010

You cite passages from a man who is out wholly to "destroy" the Trinity

To make the Biblical Jesus less than Deity

I guess this is where we must part ways

I believe it would be prudent to allow you to go the way of fourvetta though you will not like where you end up

Your doctrine is obvious based upon your continued attempts to deny the Deity of Jesus and attack the validity of Scripture

You have all the evidence necessary and you choose to ignore it by citing books written by apostates

Sir, you are of a warped mind and seemingly very set in that direction

Good "luck" with that when you stand before Jesus and deny Him

There is nothing more I can say to you

March 7, 2010

Seeking or anyone else who may want to share their thoughts on this.

This is from the Gospel of John 4;

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall g ,rÜaðvcanother Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is Jesus Christ Himself talking to His worried disciples as he is preparing to leave and trying to put their minds at ease by letting them know He must go to the Father so the Father can send the Comforter; The Holy Spirit.

Verse 20 I boldly underlined "That day" and "I in you." Is this pointing to Jesus Christ being God, and that when He leaves and the Holy Spirit is poured out on "that day,"Day of Pentacost, The Holy Spirit being God also? So far Jesus has shown Him being God, the Father being God and now the Holy Spirit Being God. (Jesus is saying Say "On that day I will be in you, rather than Him saying, the Holy Spirit being in you).

That's what I understand that to be?

Thanks!

Paul W. Orloff

Hey porlo....bluetopboy here. I'd like to off irrefutable evidence that Jesus is not God.

Matthew 6, 9-13

9 "Pray, then, in this way:

'Our Father who is in heaven,

Hallowed be Your name.

10 'Your kingdom come

Your will be done,

On earth as it is in heaven.

11 'Give us this day our daily bread.

12 'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13 'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Jesus here is revealing that Go is His Father as well. Otherwise, the passage would have read "My Father."

Go on and believe in your trinity doctrine. You have been proven wrong yet again.

seeking_truth_1 · March 7, 2010

Another proud little chest thumper I see

You have nothing but nonsense

Since your "jesus" is not deity, how is your personal sin dealt with

If you enter into eternity on your own you wind up in Hell

You do understand that right?

Hey porlo....bluetopboy here. I'd like to off irrefutable evidence that Jesus is not God.

Matthew 6, 9-13

9 "Pray, then, in this way:

'Our Father who is in heaven,

Hallowed be Your name.

10 'Your kingdom come

Your will be done,

On earth as it is in heaven.

11 'Give us this day our daily bread.

12 'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13 'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Jesus here is revealing that Go is His Father as well. Otherwise, the passage would have read "My Father."

Go on and believe in your trinity doctrine. You have been proven wrong yet again.

March 7, 2010

Hey porlo....bluetopboy here. I'd like to off irrefutable evidence that Jesus is not God.

Matthew 6, 9-13

9 "Pray, then, in this way:

'Our Father who is in heaven,

Hallowed be Your name.

10 'Your kingdom come

Your will be done,

On earth as it is in heaven.

11 'Give us this day our daily bread.

12 'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13 'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Jesus here is revealing that Go is His Father as well. Otherwise, the passage would have read "My Father."

Go on and believe in your trinity doctrine. You have been proven wrong yet again.

This is your proof, that Jesus taught his Disciples, and all of us to pray to"Our" Father. Did it ever occur to you that Jesus wanted to emphasize that God is the Father to ALL of us, equally. Because we are taught to pray to Our Father Jesus is not God? We are supposed to have an individual relationship with God that is true, but we are also supposed to act as a community of believers as well, Brothers and Sisters in Christ, that is where the "Our" comes from.

Why oh why do Molokans insist on having their own private interpretation on anything from God? Is ihere that much of a need to feel special, and superior to all others. That is arrogance and greed pure and simple, and wholly contrary to Jesus ' teaching. Jesus taught in parables to be sure, but they were always very easy to understand parables, very direct actually, there was no Hocus Pocus, secret Molokan JuJu. This is why it is so very important for serious Molokans to try to prove that Jesus is not God. They need to leave a way open for Jesus to be replaced, for another message that allows them to separate themselves from all other Christians, and allows them to have their own way to salvation. If Jesus is God, then you need to take his message, example and teachings, as eternal, never changing, and the only way to salvation. Once you accept Jesus words, teachings and examples, as being the direct revelation of God, then the whole "private Molokan Church" thing falls apart. As should anything made by man in the face of God, this is how it should be.

GoodDay · March 7, 2010

Seeking or anyone else who may want to share their thoughts on this.

This is from the Gospel of John 4;

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall g ,rÜaðvcanother Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is Jesus Christ Himself talking to His worried disciples as he is preparing to leave and trying to put their minds at ease by letting them know He must go to the Father so the Father can send the Comforter; The Holy Spirit.

Verse 20 I boldly underlined "That day" and "I in you." Is this pointing to Jesus Christ being God, and that when He leaves and the Holy Spirit is poured out on "that day,"Day of Pentacost, The Holy Spirit being God also? So far Jesus has shown Him being God, the Father being God and now the Holy Spirit Being God. (Jesus is saying Say "On that day I will be in you, rather than Him saying, the Holy Spirit being in you).

That's what I understand that to be?

Thanks!

Paul W. Orloff

Hey porlo....bluetopboy here. I'd like to off irrefutable evidence that Jesus is not God.

Matthew 6, 9-13

9 "Pray, then, in this way:

'Our Father who is in heaven,

Hallowed be Your name.

10 'Your kingdom come

Your will be done,

On earth as it is in heaven.

11 'Give us this day our daily bread.

12 'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13 'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Jesus here is revealing that Go is His Father as well. Otherwise, the passage would have read "My Father."

Go on and believe in your trinity doctrine. You have been proven wrong yet again.

Why try to prove "me" wrong?

To use the format for a type of prayer that Jesus was giving to His Desciples has no meaning.

In this instance, of course His is going to say "Our" Father. He wasn't praying at that time. If one wants to pray in that manner thay can say "Our" or "My" "Heavenly Father" "Jesus" Father. There are other times when Jesus prays to The Father-Here is a couple;

John 17

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I actually have never read The Trinity Doctrine. I don't like to read those. I like to let the Bible speak and listen to those who speak from the Bible in Truth.

If you read through many posts that are on here, you can see all the proof you need. It's in the Molokans Dogma and actaully in the spirit and life. Don't take my word for it-If you are into the spirit and life, accept it in there.

I noticed you spelled the most Highest's as "Go." Thats VERY interesting! As with out the Son of God, Jesus, you are left with an incomplete God.

1.God The Father

1.The Son of God Jesus

1.God The Holy Spirit.

1x1x1=1

Jesus is NOT the Father nor is He the Holy Spirit and etc..

That's where people get mixed up.

Picture the three working together.

When Jesus was baptised, you hear The Father speak from Heaven as the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus like a dove. The Fullness of God is shown at that moment working together as One in a plural form. Just as God in the first chapter of Genesis is Elohim. El is God and Elohim is plural meaning One God, with three destinct personalities.

The Father could not send The Holy Spirit until The Day of Pentacost-Why is that?

Why did the "Son of God" have to leave and go back to the Father before He could Send The Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentacost.

porlo

March 7, 2010

I would much prefer to believe my wrong way, because I know it to be right by God. You proud little chest thumpers like to pound your drums to the beat of the devil. I don't

We are told how to pray. It isn't rocket science. Here you go....again.

Prayers are to be directed to our Heavenly Father, as instructed in Matthew 6:9, and they are to be said in the name of Jesus Christ, as instructed in John 14:13-14.

What part did you miss? If we were to pray to Jesus, and if Jesus were God, then Jesus would have told us that. Instead, He tells us the correct way. (only through the Father in Heaven)

Wake up already.

stevepiv · March 7, 2010

No man can ever pay the ransom for another. So, if Jesus was just a man, His sacrifice is not enough.

Psalm 49:

7 No man can redeem the life of another

or give to God a ransom for him-

8 the ransom for a life is costly,

no payment is ever enough-

But, God Himself will Rescue us:

Psalm 49:

15 But God will redeem my life from the grave;

he will surely take me to himself.

And Jesus Christ said this:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

Jesus the Way to the Father 5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

GoodDay · March 7, 2010

Blue Top Boy,

I posted something awhile back and I will repost it and ask you the same thing.

Why do the Molokan churches pray in the manner;

We are going to pray to God, in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. (This is the English translation.)

If God was only The Father, why do they pray those words? They with-out even knowing are praying to the Trinitarial God-The one that is in The Bible!

It is not said; "to God in the name of The son and The Holy Spirit."

It is to God The Father, God The Son and to God The Holy Spirit.

Each one of the three are God and together they work to make The Fullness of God

Again Jesus is not The Father or The Holy Spirit etc..

I don't know why The Molokans start off prayer every single time that way, but they ARE praying to The Trinity or in The Name of.

Jesus told His disciples to go out and teach and Baptize in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. See here;

Matthew 28

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

These are Words from the Mouth of Jesus Christ. He is the "Son of God." Why didn't He instruct them by saying" In the Name of "My(Our)" Father, and Me and The Holy Spirit?

And He didn't say "God" in that verse; Well, actually He did. He said It in all of His Fullness through every Person of God, All three personalities that Make up God, including Himself. He is The Son of God; Jesus

Jesus is God~

I am not sure, but I don't think anyone ever refers to Jesus as God's Son?

Do you know more on this Seeking?

Thanks Brother

Porlo

Edited March 7, 2010 by GoodDay

March 7, 2010

Blue Top Boy,
I posted something awhile back and I will repost it and ask you the same thing.

Why do the Molokan churches pray in the manner;

We are going to pray to God, in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. (This is the English translation.)

If God was only The Father, why do they pray those words? They with-out even knowing are praying to the Trinitarial God-The one that is in The Bible!

It is not said; "to God in the name of The son and The Holy Spirit."

It is to God The Father, God The Son and to God The Holy Spirit.

Each one of the three are God and together they work to make The Fullness of God

Again Jesus is not The Father or The Holy Spirit etc..

I don't know why The Molokans start off prayer every single time that way, but they ARE praying to The Trinity or in The Name of.

Jesus told His disciples to go out and teach and Baptize in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. See here;

Matthew 28

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

These are Words from the Mouth of Jesus Christ. He is the "Son of God." Why didn't He instruct them by saying" In the Name of "My(Our)" Father, and Me and The Holy Spirit?

And He didn't say "God" in that verse; Well, actually He did. He said It in all of His Fullness through every Person of God, All three personalities that Make up God, including Himself. He is The Son of God; Jesus

Jesus is God~

I am not sure, but I don't think anyone ever refers to Jesus as God's Son?

Do you know more on this Seeking?

Thanks Brother

Porlo

You know the answer porlo.

God isn't 3 people. God is God. The Son and the Holy Spirit are seperate, yet of the same mindset as God and do His will.

The reason the churches pray that way, is because they acknowledge the unity of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as 3 faces of God yet one mindset.

It's a no brainer. Read the bible. It explains it all.

March 7, 2010

Blue Top Boy,
I posted something awhile back and I will repost it and ask you the same thing.

Why do the Molokan churches pray in the manner;

We are going to pray to God, in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. (This is the English translation.)

If God was only The Father, why do they pray those words? They with-out even knowing are praying to the Trinitarial God-The one that is in The Bible!

It is not said; "to God in the name of The son and The Holy Spirit."

It is to God The Father, God The Son and to God The Holy Spirit.

Each one of the three are God and together they work to make The Fullness of God

Again Jesus is not The Father or The Holy Spirit etc..

I don't know why The Molokans start off prayer every single time that way, but they ARE praying to The Trinity or in The Name of.

Jesus told His disciples to go out and teach and Baptize in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. See here;

Matthew 28

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

These are Words from the Mouth of Jesus Christ. He is the "Son of God." Why didn't He instruct them by saying" In the Name of "My(Our)" Father, and Me and The Holy Spirit?

And He didn't say "God" in that verse; Well, actually He did. He said It in all of His Fullness through every Person of God, All three personalities that Make up God, including Himself. He is The Son of God; Jesus

Jesus is God~

I am not sure, but I don't think anyone ever refers to Jesus as God's Son?

Do you know more on this Seeking?

Thanks Brother

Porlo

Forgot the quotes from the bible for your skeptical perusal.

John 20:17

I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Here, Jesus acknowledges that He has a Father, and draws a line between the two.

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ says to us here, that there is one God only, and that He definitely says that He is Jesus Christ...not God.

Mark 16:19

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

If Jesus were God, how could He sit on His right side? Oh...He can't, because they are two seperate beings. (same mindset)

Colossians 3:1

Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Read above.

1 Corinthians 11:3

The head of Christ is God.

Wouldn't make sense if it said, the head of God is God.

John 14:28

My Father is greater than I.

Well, if God is the Father, and Jesus is the Son, this makes perfect sense, because Jesus was NOT God. Clearly, Jesus differentiates between His power and GOd's.

Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Was Jesus praying to Himself? Uh....that would be a resounding no.

I could find more if you'd like, but this is more than enough. If you can't see the truth for what is is after reading these passages from the bible...that you claim to know, love and live by, then I simply wash my hands of this mess. You claim to have received Jesus in your heart, yet you know Him not. Clearly, because if you did, you would acknowledge Jesus Christ as the tru Son of God and not God Himself. You are blaspheming.

lastinline · March 8, 2010

bluetopboy' date='Mar 7 2010, 04:17 PM' post='51088'

It's a no brainer. Read the bible. It explains it all.

Click 4 brains & a TRUE HEART!

Click Here ---> It's a NO-Brainer

lastinline (& glad to help)

March 8, 2010

bluetopboy' date='Mar 7 2010, 04:17 PM' post='51088'

It's a no brainer. Read the bible. It explains it all.

Click 4 brains & a TRUE HEART!

Click Here ---> It's a NO-Brainer

lastinline (& glad to help)

Don't you have a thought of your own? It's typical of people when they can't think on their own...to quote entire websites...created by Jews that don't even believe in Christ in the first place. I don't agree with their opinions or their reasoning. They live by the letter of the law and will be judged by it...same as you.

Maybe you should call yourself...notinline.

seeking_truth_1 · March 8, 2010

Now that's funny...

You're asking if someone has a "thought of (their) own"

the cult of molokanism doesn't allow for that

Cults frown on individual thought

Don't you have a thought of your own? It's typical of people when they can't think on their own...to quote entire websites...created by Jews that don't even believe in Christ in the first place. I don't agree with their opinions or their reasoning. They live by the letter of the law and will be judged by it...same as you.

Maybe you should call yourself...notinline.

Nick Shubin · March 8, 2010

The reason the churches pray that way, is because they acknowledge the unity of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as 3 faces of God yet one mindset.

Bluetopboy, you have just described the trinity in it's simplest form. Or, as Hank Hanegraaff puts it, "one what, and three whos" The Godhead is, three distinct personages, that are co-equal, and co-eternal.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Nick Shubin

Nick Shubin · March 8, 2010

This is a rather lengthy read, but well worth it! You can read for yourself, without any of the sarcasm that ocasionally comes with replies from some here.

From the Christian Research institute.

Loving the Trinity

DT250

James R. White

This article first appeared in the Volume 21 / Number 4 issue of the Christian Research Journal. For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

SUMMARY

The Trinity should be the object of our love, for the doctrine expresses the very heart and soul of Scripture’s message of redemption. If we wish to have a solid foundation for our faith, we need to learn why this doctrine is central and what it really expresses. We must also be able to recognize denials of the Trinity, whether blatant or subtle, and we must call Christian leaders to account when they allow this central truth of the faith to be undermined and relegated to “debatable” status.

The computer program on my laptop indicated that my music CD had just ended. I had finished listening, again, to “Freedom of the Sea,” a new release from Phillips, Craig, and Dean. I was thumbing through J. Lee Grady’s article in the June 1997 issue of Charisma magazine on Oneness Pentecostalism. I had briefly scanned it when it first came out, for it identified the fundamental differences between historic Trinitarians and Oneness Pentecostals as doctrinal hair-splitting. Moreover, it openly spoke of reconciliation without resolving the theological issue of the Godhead. I was rereading it in preparation for writing this article, and to gain perspective in preparation for my upcoming debate with Oneness Pentecostal scholar Robert Sabin.1

As I read, I happened upon a section of the article that listed popular Oneness song writers and performers, showing how such artists have had a deep impact on Trinitarian churches. Then I read this sentence: “The contemporary Christian recording group Phillips, Craig and Dean is composed of three Oneness ministers.” I hit the eject button and out popped the CD. I sat there looking at it and pondering what I should learn from this experience. The title on my screen was “Loving the Trinity,” and the music I was listening to for edification while writing on this subject was performed by mythology expressed in Greek philosophical terminology!2 As it turns out, they do hold such belifs.3 To understand why this was so disturbing to me, you need to understand something about my faith.

LOVING THE TRINITY

I love the Trinity. Such a statement strikes many people as strange, rather “out of place.” For many Christians, the Trinity is an abstract principle, a confusing and difficult doctrine that they believe, although they are not really sure why in their most honest moments. They know it is important, and they hear people saying it is “definitional” of the Christian faith. Yet the fact of the matter is, outside of singing “Holy, Holy, Holy” in church, little is taught about the relationship of the divine Persons and the Triune nature of God. It is the great forgotten doctrine.

That is why I wrote The Forgotten Trinity (Bethany House, 1998), and why I began that book by saying, “I love the Trinity.” That single line has caught the attention of almost every person who has reviewed or discussed the book. With those words I set the tone for the rest of the work. It was my desire for my fellow Christians to join me in loving the Trinity, not as an abstract doctrine, but as the very life-giving truth of God. I am passionate about the Trinity, because I love God, and I am bound to the revelation of Scripture. Every Christian needs to understand that statement.

THE PROBLEM

Why should my words, “I love the Trinity,” sound strange to anyone? We hear Christians say things like “I love prophecy” and “I love the Cross.” I would like to suggest three reasons why the Trinity is not the object of love and adoration in the church that it should be and will be again by God’s mercy.

First, we do not love what we do not understand. I don’t love calculus because it is a mystery to me, but I know some people who do (as strange as it seems to me). They love it because they understand it and see in it something wonderful. In the same way, anyone who has been married for years and has grown in his or her relationship knows that what began as a blush of infatuation matures over time as husband and wife learn more about each other. The Scriptures exhort us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pet. 3:18), and when we do, we can love Him in an ever deeper way. If we do not know the Trinity, we cannot possibly love the truth the term represents.

Second, we don’t see how the Trinity relates to what really matters to us. We will hardly undertake the work necessary to learn this vital truth if we don’t see how it is relevant to the gospel, to our lives, to anything that really touches our hearts. Why do theologians say this doctrine is so central, so essential, if, as we think, everyone else seems to get along just fine without ever really understanding it? And if it really is central to the faith, why can’t I see how it is related to the gospel or to my worship?

Third, we live in a time when the church is antitheological in its thinking. “Don’t give me theology, just give me Jesus” seems to be the watchword, though few realize that as soon as they say “Jesus,” they are speaking theology. Entire sections of the modern church are functionally “non-Trinitarian.” I did not say “anti-Trinitarian,” for that would involve a positive denial of the doctrine. Instead, while maintaining the confession that the Trinity is true, many today function as if the Trinity did not exist. It has no impact on their theology, their proclamation, prayer, or worship. Some go so far as to dismiss denials of the Trinity as nonissues. The fact that the Trinity Broadcasting Network can have this word in its name and yet allow men like T.D. Jakes, whose teaching compromises the Trinity, to promote his theology in their network shows how little functional concern there is for the divine truth.

THE SOLUTION

How do we overcome these barriers? I have three suggestions. First, we need to do some major-league education on what the doctrine actually teaches. There is no good reason why the very doctrine that gives life to all other elements of Christian theology should not be part of the most basic instruction given to all believers. Not only should introductory teaching be provided, but we also should hear this truth thundered from the pulpit with regularity, for as the apostle Peter asserts (2 pet. 1:12), Christians need to be reminded of the truth on a regular basis. There is something distinctly nonbiblical in the notion that we always have to be looking for something “new” and “fresh.” The truth is always new, fresh, and exciting to the believer in Christ. The “old, old story” is the very lifeblood of the solid Christian’s experience by the power of the Holy Spirit.

In the second place, we have to impress on every believer the vital importance of understanding, accepting, and experiencing the truth that God has revealed Himself to be Triune: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This vital truth guarantees the gospel, the Resurrection, and our approach to God in prayer. It needs to be impressed strongly on the thinking of believers. When we have the central aspects of the faith in order, we have a strong foundation from which to work in establishing the rest of our doctrinal structure. A Christian whose life lacks that foundation and structure is likely to be “blown here and there by every wind of teaching” (Eph. 4:14).

Finally, we have to educate, not with arrogance or pride, but with a passion and fervor born of love for the truth. Infectiously on-fire believers can go a long way in changing a fellowship that is antitheological into one that is in love with truth. Concerned Christians need to voice their disapproval of television networks, ministries, or publishers who tolerate poor theology just to mollify a larger “audience.” Dedicated Christians may well find themselves being identified as “unloving,” “narrow,” or “uncaring,” but it is better to face that kind of rejection than to be guilty of not caring about God’s truth. The Lord’s opinion is all that really matters.

THE TRINITY: A BRIEF DEFINITION

No discussion can take place that does not begin with solid definitions. In many instances when faithful Christians attempt to explain and defend their belief in the Trinity, it is the lack of solid, meaningful definitions that leads them to frustration. Always remember that it is far more likely than not that non-Christians have an erroneous idea of what the Trinity actually means. It is better to assume that you will need to explain the most basic elements of the doctrine to them. It is then a pleasant surprise when you encounter someone who actually understands the teaching.

I have found the following definition communicates what needs to be said with the greatest clarity: Within the one Being that is God, there exist eternally three coequal and coeternal Persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Each word of this definition is important. Each term carries weight and cannot be ignored. These few words present the three great foundations of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity: monotheism, the existence of three divine Persons, and the equality of those Persons.

The phrase “one Being” communicates the truth that there is only one true God, the Creator of all things. The Trinity is purely monotheistic. It is not, however, Unitarian. Monotheism speaks to the truth that there is only one Being of God, while Unitarianism asserts the heresy that only one Person is essential to the Being of God.

The Being of God is what makes God, God. It is the substance4 of God. When we speak of such things, we are entering into the discussion of ontology, the study of “being.” God’s being is eternal (i.e., not limited by both time and omnipresent (not limited by space). In this matter God is utterly unique. Human beings are limited by both time and space. It is here that we encounter the vast chasm that separates the Creator from all creation. God is infinite in His being, while all creatures are, by nature, limited.

It is vitally important that we recognize the difference between the words Being and Person. The failure to recognize that the definition given above is using these two terms in different ways is one of the prime reasons for confusion in regard to the Trinity. Being is what makes something what it is. Person is what makes someone who he or she is. As Hank Hanegraaff puts it, when speaking of the Trinity, we speak of one what (the Being of God) and three whos (the three divine Persons). Most cultic rejections of the Trinity focus on blurring this distinction.

We speak of these three divine Persons as coequal and coeternal. The Father has eternally been the Father, and the Son has eternally been the Son. The terms Father and Son refer to an eternal relationship that they have with each other. It is vitally important to understand that this relationship has always been. If we neglect to recognize this fact, we run the danger of thinking that the Father precedes or creates the Son, when this is not the case. While theologians speak of the Father begetting the Son, they do so in such a way that completely denies that the Son is a creation of, or ontologically inferior to, the Father. Each of the divine Persons shares fully and completely in the divine Being, but they likewise bear a relationship to one another within the Godhead itself. Many arguments raised against the Trinity actually focus on the relationship between the Persons, as if these automatically indicate an inferiority of nature. We do well to recognize this kind of error in the arguments of those who oppose the Christian faith.

The final assertion of our definition comprises the deity of Christ and the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit. Of course, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups vociferously attack both of these truths. Many of our conversations of the Trinity focus on this particular area.

The key element in successfully explaining and defending the Trinity is to recognize that the doctrine is based on the plain teaching of Scripture. Citing the above discussion of such terms as ontology or internal relationships of the Godhead, someone might insist that such phrases are inherently unbiblical. Yet, as we shall see, that is not the case. We can never afford to abandon the only ground upon which the Christian apologist can stand — the teaching of God’s Word. Each of the three foundations of the doctrine are clear teachings of the Bible, and we mush focus our defense there, if we wish to honor God and give a God-glorifying answer to those who ask.

Foundation One:……………………………………………………………Monotheism: There Is Only One God.

Foundation Two:…………………………………………………………………There Are Three Divine Persons.

Foundation Three:……………………………………………………The Persons Are Co-Equal and Co-Eternal.

WHEN TRUTH IS DENIED

When any one of these truths is denied, the biblical revelation of God is destroyed. For example, when one denies monotheism, the result is rank polytheism, even when covered over with a thin varnish of Christian terminology. This error can be especially seen in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons). When one denies the equality and eternality of the Persons, subordinationism naturally results, seen with stark clarity in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses).

More subtle is the denial of the truth that there are three divine Persons — the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The denial of this truth leads to modalism. In the most popular form taken by modalism today, Oneness theology insists that there is one Person (that is, Unitarianism) who manifests Himself as Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Spirit in emanation or regeneration. The Son of God then becomes the flesh that is indwelt by the Father. All those passages that teach the unique and personal relationship between the Father and the Son prior to the Incarnation are explained away, always in violation of their context and original intent.5

For some reason many feel that there is a hierarchy of “error” when it comes to the Trinity. It is really bad to be a polytheist. It is fairly bad to be a subordinationist such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yet, if you are going to be an anti-Trinitarian heretic, you might as well be a Oneness advocate. Or so many think. It just sounds closer than the others. They often speak of the truth that there is only one God and of the deity of Christ, but the fact of the matter is, heresy is heresy. A direct denial of any one of these biblical truths is just as serious as any other. We are to worship God in spirit and in truth, and two-thirds of the truth is not a valid substitute, no matter which one-third of His truth we choose to reject.

A KEY ISSUE

Some Christians struggle with the fact that the Trinity is not a term that appears in Scripture. Why should we believe a doctrine that is not specifically stated in some sort of creedal manner in the Bible? Why don’t we find a nice, simple definition of the Trinity in Scripture?6 Were the early Christians “Trinitarians”? Some say no. I beg to differ.

One of the most important truths to grasp about the Bible’s revelation of the Trinity is that the truth of the Trinity is revealed primarily in acts of God — specifically, in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ and in the coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell the church. The greatest proof that God is Triune is found in the ministry, death, burial, and resurrection of the Son of God and in the coming of the Spirit. These events took place between the writing of the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament contains predictions and glimpses of what comes into clear view only in the ministry of Christ recorded in the New Testament. In the same way the Trinity is revealed before the writing of the New Testament so that is written by Trinitarians for Trinitarians. The apostle Peter, for example, had personally experienced the Trinity, for he had heard the Father speak from heaven, had walked with the Son, and was then indwelt by the Holy Spirit. B.B. Warfield observed: “We may understand also, however, from the same central fact, why it is that the doctrine of the Trinity lies in the New Testament rather in the form of allusions than in express teaching, why it is rather everywhere presupposed, coming only here and there into incidental expression, than formally inculcated. It is because the revelation, having been made in the actual occurrences of redemption, was already the common property of all Christian hearts.”7

The Trinity is found in the New Testament in the exact form we would expect it to take. When people who share a common belief and heritage communicate with one another they do not reiterate all the foundational truths that they already share each time they speak. Instead, their shared beliefs come out not so much in creedal expressions, but in allusions and common terminology. Note the words of the following passages and see how easily, and how often, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit come together in a manner utterly incongruous if these writers did not view them in a Trinitarian fashion:

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19).8

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth (2 Thess. 2:13).

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons (1 Cor. 12:4–6).

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge ( 2 Cor. 1:21–22).

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all (2 Cor. 13:14)

…to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest of gospel of God, that my offering of the Gentiles might become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 15:16).

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all (Eph. 4:4–6).9

We should not underestimate the importance of such passages. Down through the centuries, Christians have recognized that if the New Testament writers were willing to join Father, Son, and Spirit together in such a manner, it proves they held the highest concept of the deity and authority of each. One does not join mere creatures with God in speaking, for example, of the accomplishment of salvation. One does not say, “The grace of Michael the Archangel, and the love of Jehovah, and the fellowship of God’s impersonal active force be with you all.” Yet this is exactly how subordinationists such as Jehovah’s Witnesses must understand these passages.

Meanwhile, we still must consider the question of using nonbiblical terminology to describe a biblical truth. The real question is: What is most important, the truth taught by Scripture or the use of only the words of Scripture to express that truth? If we express a truth of Scripture by use of words not used by scriptural writers, are we in some way compromising Scripture? Certainly not. The issue is whether the truth so expressed is, in fact in harmony with the Scriptures. Just as “justification by grace through faith alone without meritorious works” is an accurate, proper summary of the biblical teaching on salvation, though the exact phrase itself does not appear in Scripture, so too “one God in three Persons” is the only possible conclusion derived from a study of Scripture alone and all of Scripture. John Calvin dealt with this issue: “Now, although the heretics rail at the word ‘person,’ or certain squeamish men cry out against admitting a term fashioned by the human mind, they cannot shake our conviction that three are spoken of, each of which is entirely God, yet that there is not more than one God. What wickedness, then, it is to disapprove of words that explain nothing else than what is attested and sealed by Scripture!”10

WHY IT MATTERS

Without the Trinity, you have no gospel. Surprised by that assertion? Many today present the gospel to unbelievers without ever mentioning the Triune God, so how can I say the gospel and the Trinity are inextricably linked? If some seem to manage without it, why complicate things?

In reality, no one has ever presented the gospel without referring to the Trinity. Whenever we quote John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,” we are referring to the Trinity, for such a passage assumes the existence, deity, and power of the Father and the existence, separate personhood, and ministry of the Son. If we quote Paul’s words in Romans 3:24 to speak of the great truth of justification by grace: “being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,” we again assume the mercy and grace of the Father and the perfection of the redeeming work of Christ. No matter what reference we make to the gospel, we cannot avoid dealing with the nature of God.

When we baptize, we do so in the name of the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When we celebrate the Lord’s Supper, we remember the One who was sent by the Father into the world, and we do so by the power of the Holy Spirit. Christianity is inherently Trinitarian. Remove the loving Father — fount of salvation, the redeeming Son — sacrifice for sins, and the indwelling Spirit — Comforter and Advocate, and you have nothing left but ritual and rule — another less-than-unique religious system.

Think of what it would mean, for example, to have a nondivine Savior. Put yourself in the position of the Jehovah’s Witness who believes Christ is Michael the created Archangel, or the Mormon who believes Him to be the first begotten spiritchild of Elohim (God the Father), the literal brother of us all (and of Lucifer as well!). Can you imagine trusting another created being for your eternal salvation? Can you picture yourself enraptured in worshiping such a fellow creature? Surely not. The very idea of giving the honor and glory that is due to God alone to any created being caused the redeemed heart to recoil in horror. Yet, to speak of Christ in the words of Scripture is to praise and honor Him as God. Jesus Himself said all are to “honor the Son, even as they honor the Father” (John 5:23). It is natural for us to do this, because we know that only a truly divine redeemer could provide for us the perfect salvation promised in the Bible.

The centrality of this truth to the proclamation of the gospel is well illustrated by the stirring words an ancient Christian penned and preached more than 1,800 years ago. In a sermon on the Passover, Melito, bishop of Sardis, said:

And so he was lifted up upon a tree and an inscription was attached indicating who was being killed. Who was it? It is a grievous thing to tell, but a most fearful thing to refrain from telling. But listen, as you tremble before him on whose account the earth trembled!

He who hung the earth in place is hanged.

He who fixed the heavens in place is fixed in place.

He who made all things fast is made fast on a tree.

The Sovereign is insulted.

God is murdered.

The King of Israel is destroyed by an Israelite hand.

This is the One who made the heavens and the earth,

and formed mankind in the beginning,

The One proclaimed by the Law and the Prophets,

The One enfleshed in a virgin,

The One hanged on a tree,

The One buried in the earth,

The One raised from the dead

and who went up into the heights of heaven,

The One sitting at the right hand of the Father,

The One having all authority to judge and save,

Through Whom the Father made the things which exist

from the beginning of time.

This One is “the Alpha and the Omega,”

This One is “the beginning and the end”

—the beginning indescribable and the end

incomprehensible.

This One is the Christ.

This One is the King.

This One is Jesus.

This One is the Leader.

This One is the Lord.

This One is the One who rose from the dead.

This One is the One sitting on the right hand of the Father.

He bears the Father and is borne by the Father.

“To him be the glory and the power forever.

Amen.”11

WEEDING OUT THE FALSE TEACHERS

Most Christians are able to recognize the cultic nature of such groups as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the Way International, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The ways in which they deny and attack the Trinity are well known and obvious. Yet, when it comes to people who are “closer” to the truth, we often fail to hold them to the same standard.

Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) should change its name. Not only are many of the programs on the network functionally non-Trinitarian (i.e., the doctrine makes no impact upon their doctrinal stance), but there is also a networkwide willingness to entertain blatant deviations from the truth of God’s triune existence. One will often find T.D. Jakes preaching on the network, even though his confession of faith is modalistic, not Trinitarian, in terminology. He eschews the term “Persons” and prefers, instead, the favorite phrase of the Oneness Pentecostals; three “manifestations.”12 He likewise uses Oneness terminology when he says, “We have one God, but He is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration.”13

In the same way, Jesse DuPlantis is allowed to present his mystical trips to heaven on TBN without anyone pointing out that what he claims to have seen is in direct contradiction to the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Someone should speak up and say that DuPlantis is flying directly in the face of scriptural truth when he claims to have seen “Jesus come out of Jehovah-Elohim-God” and then to have discovered that the Holy Spirit was a separate deity who was not in heaven but on earth.14 Many today are afraid to contradict “spiritual experiences” on the basis of Scripture, as if someone’s experience is more authoritative than the Word of God!

None of this should be especially surprising to us, given the statements of TBN’s leader, Paul Crouch. When speaking to Benny Hinn on 23 October 1992, Crouch said:

Let’s talk a little bit about theology now. These are issues that I consider to be up for debate, discussion, within the broad spectrum of the body of Christ. You don’t have total agreement on, for example, the Trinity. There is a group, the Jesus Only group, or the Oneness group that believes that there’s only one Person — anyway, we won’t get into that deeply, into the doctrinal aspect, but you have been attacked on some statements that you have made concerning the Trinity and the members of the Godhead [i.e., that they are three Gods].

When the Trinity becomes something that is “up for debate,” the foundations have collapsed and a vacuum of truth is created. Anything and its uncle will rush in to fill the vacuum, which might explain the wide variety of doctrinal views expressed on TBN.

So what am I going to do with that CD? If I am consistent, I will retire it from the active list of titles heard on my CD player. Why? The music is still pretty, exciting, even touching. Nevertheless, it is about the Christian faith, and when the performers deny the very truth that defines that faith by their own confession, that fact will always enter into my thinking as I listen.

It is all a matter of priorities. I don’t spend time watching TBN because I don’t believe non-Trinitarians can teach me about the Christian faith, nor do I believe those who do not have a firm grasp of the doctrine and its centrality are particularly qualified to be involved in Christian ministry. Likewise, I don’t believe it is proper to be led in worship by someone who worships a different God than I do and who specifically denies the truth of the Triune existence of God. One would think that theological orthodoxy would be the first and foremost requirement of a worship leader. Indeed, how can one lead us to worship God when that person does not have a true knowledge of the Almighty? Far too often one’s ability to sing, play an instrument, or write a song is more important than the content of his or her teaching, theology, and doctrine. And our worship reflects it.

Why should we be concerned about understanding, and loving, the Trinity? To be consistent and honest in our worship and witness, we must know who God is, and how God has revealed Himself to us. We must acknowledge the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, as Scripture has revealed them to be related to one another and to us. If the Bible is truly God-breathed, then we must worship God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. This is the plain verdict of the entire Bible. This is how God has revealed Himself, and we must love Him in truth. That truth is expressed in the words of the great hymn, “God in three Persons, blessed Trinity.” Let us, then, bless our majestic God! And let us more and more love the truth that is the Trinity!

March 8, 2010

This is a rather lengthy read, but well worth it! You can read for yourself, without any of the sarcasm that ocasionally comes with replies from some here.

From the Christian Research institute.

go to: http://www.equip.org

If we believe the same, why can't you just say that you agree with me?

Or is there a "but," somewhere in there?

I glanced through what you posted Nick, but I am past all of the endless descriptions of what "it" is that I should believe in.

Jesus died for me, but God is the one I pray to, because no one else will heat my prayers except Him. God. Not god in the triune, not god in the unification of 14 head which are the pillars of who knows what and especially, some peoples version which prolaims Jesus Christ as God. I will never accept that. Jesus does His Father's will, but does not contain the power of His Father, except that which has been given Him.

GoodDay · March 8, 2010

I am glad you finally understand the Trinity "Red "Top Boy

I read between the lines like you do and easily can tell you are from the "other" site.

Next time quote even smaller amounts of verses?

Did you ever notice now that you are reading the Bible instead of the devils handbook, that Jesus uses "God" at time and other times "The Father" Or Father." Did you notice that in one of your tiny quotes he said "your Father and My Father, and Your God and My God"? Isn't that repetitive? If God is ONLY the Father why did He say it that way?

I am surprised how you have no problem putting a dead man up there with God with out even questioning it, but you spaz out when you hear the Word Trinity? And you reject that Jesus is God?

As Nick showed- You posted the Trinity perfect. You believe in it but your pride has become the issue now.

Don't worry- It;s Ok to believe it.

Why did Jesus Cry out to God and Not the Father?

When you wash your hands, don't forget to scrub hard. mgr can be hard to get all of on the first wash

P.s Why did they put Jesus to death?

GoodDay · March 8, 2010

I didnt see this before=

Nad,

According to this post you beleive that God "created" Jesus?

Seeking or anyone else who may want to share their thoughts on this.

This is from the Gospel of John 14;

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is Jesus Christ Himself talking to His worried disciples as he is preparing to leave and trying to put their minds at ease by letting them know He must go to the Father so the Father can send the Comforter; The Holy Spirit.

Verse 20 I boldly underlined "That day" and "I in you." Is this pointing to Jesus Christ being God, and that when He leaves and the Holy Spirit is poured out on "that day,"Day of Pentacost, The Holy Spirit being God also? So far Jesus has shown Him being God, the Father being God and now the Holy Spirit Being God. (Jesus is saying Say "On that day I will be in you, rather than Him saying, the Holy Spirit being in you).

That's what I understand that to be?

Thanks!

Paul W. Orloff

"I will pray the Father, and He shall give you..."

"...that He may abide..." (the Spirit) "..for He dwelleth with you..."

Why is there that separation "I" , "HE"? Why "HE" and not it?

From John 16

5 "Now I am going to HIM who sent ME, yet none of you asks me, `Where are you going?'

10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the FATHER, where you can see me no longer;

13 But when HE, the Spirit of truth, comes, HE will guide you into all truth. HE will not speak on HIS own;

HE will speak only what HE hears, and HE will tell you what is yet to come.

23 In that day you will no longer ask ME anything. I tell you the truth, MY FATHER will give you whatever you ask in MY name.

24 Until now you have not asked for anything in MY name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language

but will tell you plainly about MY Father.

26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the FATHER on your behalf.

27 No, the FATHER HIMSELF loves you because you have loved ME and have believed that I came FROM God.

Sorry I can not see how GOD (Himself) came to earth, died and resurrected Himself.

I'll say again, God is like a surname.

Hi NAD!

I too had a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea that Jesus is God.

Some of the others have been explaining it and can explain it better than me.

The reason scripture says "He" is because the Holy Spirit is the third person and not an "it" of the GodHead.

Even John 1 was hard to wrap my thoughts around at one time.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

The word was "with" God, and Word "was" God. There is so much to those words.

Even the first chapters of Genesis in Hebrew use a plural word for God; Elohim

We know there is only one God and God is singular AND plural.

God bless NAD,

Paul

Hi Paul,

Yes hard to understand were you are coming from with this, there must be a deeper meaning I'm not getting.

Genesis 1 were GOD created, everything. Then as we read in changes to Lord.

MGR writes "..all was created through the Word.." another place it says "..the Spirit of God hung/hovered over the void.."

No one has seen God because he is Spirit everywhere, but Abraham walked with the Lord, Moses turned white from the Glory of the Lord,

Ezra saw the Lord sitting on His throne, just a few that come to memory.

God created the Word/His Son in His own image. So are we seeing God when Jesus appears to us (there has been a lot of claims to this)?

Then if it is God the bible is wrong or there has been a serious typo/wrong translation.

If God is all one, over the last 2000 years,you would think with all those translations it would have been corrected?

There is a passage in Peter that might hold up for that but I need to find it first to be sure.

GoodDay · March 8, 2010

Hello again Nad,

Why do you think Paul told timothy that Jesus Christ came to save us of our sins and then at the beggining He say "God our Saviour"

Who is the Saviour, God or Jesus?

Or both?

Hi Paul,

Not Peter but Timothy.

Here Paul sets Timothy straight on a few things, but I more was looking for him tying God and Christ as the same. Sorry no luck!

Alot of pauls passages can be made to sound that way but thats not what he's saying.

1 Timothy

Ch. 1

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer

4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work -- which is by faith.

11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners -- of whom I am the worst.

16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ch. 2

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,

4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, <<<<<-(the man?)

6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men -- the testimony given in its proper time.

Ch. 3

15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

(We could use these two verses but we know it's Christ he is talking about)

Ch.4

4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,

5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.

9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance

10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things.

12 Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.

13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.

14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress.

16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

ch. 6

13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you

14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 which God will bring about in his own time -- God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Paul is teaching Timothy things that seem to contradict the other writers in the New Testament.

Is it because Tim. is a gentile, and Paul is using Tim.s belief to stregthen him?

Or is it a message to all of us?

There's sound advice through all of Pauls letter to Timothy.

GoodDay · March 8, 2010

I would be pretty surprising to see a Pro-Trinity web-site put together by someone of the Jewish Faith?

Why will you not read it BlueTop Boy?

LastinLine,

Here is a pretty neat site I stumbled accross some time ago. It's called Hebrew for Christians. I may have posted it on the .net but not sure. Here is the main link and then I will get the links directly to some intresting things that help clarify the Trinity for the skeptics;

http://www.hebrew4christians.net/

The whole site is awesome!

On this link it explains the first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet. Read all the details just about this one single letter! Number 5 gets exiting;

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/U...leph/aleph.html

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/...st_jewish_.html

The web-site is made so you cannot copy and paste unless I am doing something wrong. Enjoy!

Paul

bluetopboy' date='Mar 7 2010, 04:17 PM' post='51088'

It's a no brainer. Read the bible. It explains it all.

Click 4 brains & a TRUE HEART!

Click Here ---> It's a NO-Brainer

lastinline (& glad to help)

Don't you have a thought of your own? It's typical of people when they can't think on their own...to quote entire websites...created by Jews that don't even believe in Christ in the first place. I don't agree with their opinions or their reasoning. They live by the letter of the law and will be judged by it...same as you.

Maybe you should call yourself...notinline.

March 8, 2010

I am glad you finally understand the Trinity "Red "Top Boy
I read between the lines like you do and easily can tell you are from the "other" site.

Next time quote even smaller amoue[¦ÇAª4¬erses?

Did you ever notice now that you are reading the Bible instead of the devils handbook, that Jesus uses "God" at time and other times "The Father" Or Father." Did you notice that in one of your tiny quotes he said "your Father and My Father, and Your God and My God"? Isn't that repetitive? If God is ONLY the Father why did He say it that way?

I am surprised how you have no problem putting a dead man up there with God with out even questioning it, but you spaz out when you hear the Word Trinity? And you reject that Jesus is God?

As Nick showed- You posted the Trinity perfect. You believe in it but your pride has become the issue now.

Don't worry- It;s Ok to believe it.

Why did Jesus Cry out to God and Not the Father?

When you wash your hands, don't forget to scrub hard. mgr can be hard to get all of on the first wash

P.s Why did they put Jesus to death?

Jesus was put to death to fulfill His Father's will.

And yes Goodday, Jesus did in fact cry out to the Father. He said, " Father, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

You are wrong again porlo. This is why you have issues. You are like a leaf being blown to and fro with the wind. You go where there is the least resistance. Unfortunately you are still wrong.

I believe that many of you false christians on this site are being deceived by whatever outside churches or teachins you are allowing in. Generally and lately, I find that most of your thoughts and belief systems come from either 1) the obsolete teachings of the old covenant, or 2) the perverted teachings of men.

God warns us of people like yourselves. You are deceiving us, because you yourselves have been deceived by satan. God tells us in Matthew 15;

7"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:

8'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,

BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,

TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

You are starting to realize that although you believe you are truly worshipping God, you are not. You are simply paying His lip service. That's not a true Christian right there. The real issue is the fact that teachings are being taught in the name of Christ. They look like Christ influenced. They sound and taste good, but are bringing about a bitter fruit...which is what we have now. You go around bad mouthing Molokans and whoever else you feel like talking about behind their backs, and then turn around and give a little money to help the homeless in downtown LA or San Fran. Whatever. Those things are good in and of themselves, but what's really going on here, is that you are trying to get into heaven by your works. You feel guilty because of your half hearted love for the True Living God and what's worse yet, is your inability to even pray correctly. God can't and won't hear your prayers, because you can't pray the right way. The reason you can't pray the right way is because of your twisted view of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. You don't even know who to pray to.

You mock everyone who tries to give you scripture because of the big huge log in your eye. Well, that and your hardened hearts. You may feel all nice and snuggly wuggly with your pseudo christian new age beliefs right now, but they will only carry you so far. When you realize it, God will be right there to hear your supplications.

Furthermore, partly to blame is the bible's ability to trap those who don't really have an innocent desire to know the word of God.

Isa 28:9 Whom will he teach knowledge?

And whom will he make to understand the message?

Those just weaned from milk?

Those just drawn from the breasts? (no!)

Heb 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled

in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.

Isaiah 28

12 He who said to them, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary,"

And, "Here is repose," but they would not listen.

13 So the word of the LORD to them will be,

"Order on order, order on order,

Line on line, line on line,

A little here, a little there,"

That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

God offers the people His word here, but they do not care. They simply break down, and stumble. Why is that? Well, it's because of your hard hearts. You have not truly repented and received Him into your heart. If you had, you would not be so vocally damning of everyone but yourselves. What you say is simple boasting. There is nothing there.

I'll let this absorb, and share more later. There is more.

And porlo, I am not "red." Not even a member of that "other" site. I know him though. Good guy.

Have a "good day."

EGK · March 8, 2010

You cite passages from a man who is out wholly to "destroy" the Trinity

To make the Biblical Jesus less than Deity

I guess this is where we must part ways

I believe it would be prudent to allow you to go the way of fourvetta though you will not like where you end up

Your doctrine is obvious based upon your continued attempts to deny the Deity of Jesus and attack the validity of Scripture

You have all the evidence necessary and you choose to ignore it by citing books written by apostates

Sir, you are of a warped mind and seemingly very set in that direction

Good "luck" with that when you stand before Jesus and deny Him

There is nothing more I can say to you

Running for the back door when something is too dificult for you........

I have jumped through all of your hoops and answered openly all biblical questions posed to me and have also given scriptural references with them. All I have asked from you is an explanation of ONE LINE of scripture. You owe me this!! Pay up, any explanation will do, whether I agree with it or not. Any good bible commentary should have it.

Matthew 27:46

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?"

EGK

seeking_truth_1 · March 8, 2010

Hardly running for the door...

You are wholly deceived

It just seems pointless to go round and round with you like fourvetta

seeking_truth_1 · March 8, 2010

This isn't for you but for the other readers

1 ¶ «To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.» My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. (Psalm 22:1-8)

You cite passages from a man who is out wholly to "destroy" the Trinity

To make the Biblical Jesus less than Deity

I guess this is where we must part ways

I believe it would be prudent to allow you to go the way of fourvetta though you will not like where you end up

Your doctrine is obvious based upon your continued attempts to deny the Deity of Jesus and attack the validity of Scripture

You have all the evidence necessary and you choose to ignore it by citing books written by apostates

Sir, you are of a warped mind and seemingly very set in that direction

Good "luck" with that when you stand before Jesus and deny Him

There is nothing more I can say to you

Running for the back door when something is too dificult for you........

I have jumped through all of your hoops and answered openly all biblical questions posed to me and have also given scriptural references with them. All I have asked from you is an explanation of ONE LINE of scripture. You owe me this!! Pay up, any explanation will do, whether I agree with it or not. Any good bible commentary should have it.

Matthew 27:46

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?"

EGK

March 8, 2010

Running for the back door when something is too dificult for you........

I have jumped through all of your hoops and answered openly all biblical questions posed to me and have also given scriptural references with them. All I have asked from you is an explanation of ONE LINE of scripture. You owe me this!! Pay up, any explanation will do, whether I agree with it or not. Any good bible commentary should have it.

Matthew 27:46

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?"

EGK, It deeply troubles you that the Bible proves through recorded prophesy the divinity of Jesus, Rudometkin also claims to be God, who has NO fulfilled prophesies or miracles, and to this law breaker Rudometkin, you give unforgivable reverence in your church, and that doesn't bother you, WHY?

Trinity Question

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