Should We Allow Nesahe To Our Gatherings

[broadway 0]

Our church's don't allow mexicans, blacks, white americans for numerous reasons.

I believe that we shouldn't. I know that there are many here who disagree or they would like a answer to the "Aren't We are all brothers and sisters in Christ" question, but

 

I was wondering and this is targeted towards my fellow "Maximisti" out there, and I also wouldn't mind hearing the opinions of the others.

 

Lets say you have a daughter and she is out fooling around and get pregnant by a nenash. Now, you can rush off and get an abortion and no one will ever know and everything would be fine in the molokan community. Or she can have the baby and raise it in the molokan home, maybe even with the molokan parents of the girl. (This would be difficult, but in my opinion the right thing to do)

 

What do you do with this child? Should this child of Christ be accepted in a molokan church?

 

Sure the child would be called numerous things like 1/2er, bastard, etc.....

 

But if the child comes to know Christ in this molokan home and loves everything about being a molokan, can we turn this child away? Would Christ himself turn the child away?

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Who is ne-nash?

 

Not what?

 

Russian?

Part-Russian?

From Russia?

Christian?

White?

Caucasion?

Accepting the s & l?

molokan?

 

A 1/2er

 

Half what?

 

Russian?

Christian?

White?

Caucasion?

Accepting the s & l?

molokan?

 

What is russian?

 

Who is truly 100% Russian?

 

Aren't we all 1/2, 3/4, 1/3, 1/8, 2/9, 15/16 Russian?

 

I can trace my lineage back about 250 years and it would appear that they were from Russian, but what about 2250 years ago when Russia didn't exist as a nation

 

Who are our ancestors

 

They sure weren't Russian

 

Aren't WE ALL related regardless of skin color

 

If you belive the Bible then the account of Noah should give you a clue that well are ALL descendants of Noah

 

I played a recording for an older russian lady the other day

 

She began to hum along and after it was done, she said that's song # number so and so

 

When I told her that the recording was from 1945 and it was tribal Africans singing songs to the Lord in their native language, she didn't know how to respond

 

Check Out A Snippet Of the Song

[ligonier 0]

Lets say you have a daughter and she is out fooling around and get pregnant by a nenash. Now, you can rush off and get an abortion and no one will ever know and everything would be fine in the molokan community. Or she can have the baby and raise it in the molokan home, maybe even with the molokan parents of the girl. (This would be difficult, but in my opinion the right thing to do)

 

What do you do with this child? Should this child of Christ be accepted in a molokan church?

 

Sure the child would be called numerous things like 1/2er, bastard, etc.....

 

But if the child comes to know Christ in this molokan home and loves everything about being a molokan, can we turn this child away? Would Christ himself turn the child away?

What should we do ? What would be right based on the Bible ?

 

Tough questions for a "mainstream" molokan.

 

We should forgive, and go on from there and do what's right. Which from my view would be to accept and welcome this child. An abortion (murdering a child, premeditated taking of a life, destroying something of God's for the sake of convenience) would be a bad decision, compounding sin with sin.

 

There have been examples (although few) of people from outside of Russian lineage who have been accepted (over time). Including 1/2 ers. Tough road to travel. In general, molokan youth are raised with eliteism mentality. It makes them cruel, hurtful, toward those they (because of their parents) consider "below" them because of how "clean" their past history is.

 

IF we care, all we can do is to raise our children to be better than we have been.

[Disciple 0]

I have heard of this happening, though it was the other way around. Nash boy and ninash girl, the parents proceeded to force the boy to marry this girl and join a church (an outside Christian church), they are still married and still attend their church. Though the son chose to leave the church in which he was planted, the parents chose second best and realized that they should at least attend another church with other believers.

 

The law is pretty specific on this case.

 

Deut. 22:28,29 "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."

 

It seems like a good idea, especially since now what is going on in our people with the young singles breeding like rabbits and murdering their children. There should be some accountability with the parents, who are now encouraging abortions for their children, just to save their own face.

[Disciple 0]

Check Out A Snippet Of the Song

I am curious to hear this song, though the link doesn't work. Any way you can find another way to make it work? Thanks.

[fountain-drink 0]

First off.....teach your child NOT to fool around!!!! THAT teaching comes from the home, teach your children to keep their pants on until they get married. Having a child out of wed-lock is plain and simple WRONG!!! Scriptures teaches us that. Those are God's words.

 

This subject is such a "sore" spot with me, so I will not go off in a tangent. But, yes it has happened with our children and it will happen again. Abortions happen. They happen all the time. What a shame.

 

Ok, so this child that was brought up, born outside of wed-lock and the girls parents raising this child....what a hard choice to make. Being a parent myself, I may have made the same decision if my kid could not take care of his own kid. But to bring this child to a Molokan church? NO. Would not be right. The girl made her choice in having this child, now it's time to pay the consequences. Live your life to the best of your ability. TAke responsibility for your actions. Forgiveness?? OF COURSE.

 

BUT FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT, THESE KIDS NEED TO BE TAUGHT TO KEEP THIER PANTS ON UNTIL THEY GET MARRIED. Playing around before marriage is playing with fire. You'll get burned.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Check Out A Snippet Of the Song

I am curious to hear this song, though the link doesn't work. Any way you can find another way to make it work? Thanks.

I'll make an mp3 of the sample and upload it (i think I can do that)

 

We'll try

[Disciple 0]

[seeking_truth_1 0]

I was able to upload it

 

Try this link

 

Song Snippet

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Why are you shaking your head?

[Russianqt03 0]

Think about it...Kids (I being one) REBAL!!!! They do not listen to their parent's. They do the opposite of what they are being taught. I am not saying that all Molokan kids are like that. People look at the girls who get pregnant with disgust...saying "shes carrying a nenosh baby." BUT what about the guys?!!??! Do you know HOW many MOLOKAN BOYS are sleeping around with American girls just so the Molokan girls don't know?!?! The thing about guys...is that they don't get pregnant...so they don't have to worry about others finding out that they are no longer virgins. Don't you parent's deny this...cause it happens all the flippen time. Like Broadway is saying: Abortion Vs accepting the young one...which is better? Get an abortion so that you wont ruin your precious reputation with the Molokans...or keep the little tike?! That thought came across my head alot...and if I ever did get pregnant...I'd keep it. You guys are saying to forgive the one who gets pregnant...Forgive them for what? For getting pregnant and having a child of not russian blood? What if she got pregnant by a Molokan? Would you guys just sa y..."oh that's alright...lets get you two married...you did nothing wrong...just another Molokan tike on the way" Are american babies evil or something?

[Face 0]

Rebelliousness, pregnancy and premarital relations aren’t something new as it has been happening from the beginning of time and I saw and heard of the following instances in my life concerning Molokan reactions to perceived sinfulness, mistakes and abnormal circumstances.

 

In one instance the young lady was several months pregnant when she married her young Molokan man. I’m sure they and their families suffered some embarrassment but before long the young couple had more kids and eventually became front row members in church. Was Christ’s forgiveness here?

 

In another couple of instances when the girl got pregnant to outsiders, the babies were given up for adoption and the girls also married Molokans, had more children and became valuable church contributors. Was Christ’s forgiveness here?

 

In another instance when I was just a boy, the girl kept the baby and her parents brought them to church for their own paska or kusha dela and the tongues were wagging in disproval when she came on the altar. Nevertheless an elderly man known for his religious life and spiritual works approached several different elders as if to say I’m looking for an answer from a certain person, does she go or does she stay? - meaning the unwed mother with the child. Are you the one to answer? Then no, not you. He eventually approached a younger man not long married and said words to the effect that – you are the one that has to answer - does she go or does she stay? The young man answered she stays and the prayer was completed with a laying on of the hands blessing. After church, he caught hell for it from some young married men with children and some older. The child grew up in different community after her mother married a divorced man previously married out. The child matured and married a Molokan. Was Christ’s forgiveness here?

 

The young man became a front row prophet at a very young age and soon moved elsewhere. He had a reputation of sticking up for the underdog and always bucked the elders who judged by the flesh rather than by the Spirit of Christ.

 

In another instance, not long after arriving from Russia, a man abandoned his wife with young daughters and she eventually married again and had sons. The man eventually returned after a long time but she remained with her 2nd husband. The woman and her 2nd husband and all of the children were accepted in the community, the sons became front row elders and many of their descendants live amongst us today. Was Christ’s forgiveness here?

 

In another instance, an elder prophet had a son who married outside and the father and son became estranged. Years later the elder had a house prayer and his son and daughter-in-law attended. The son was approached by a spiritual worker and told you must reconcile with your father by asking for forgiveness. The son accepted the prophet, asked his father for forgiveness with a lot of tears and peace was made. Later when they were singing, another front row elder, went up to the sons wife, kissed her with the holy kiss, and she received the physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit. She was accepted by the people and their kids attended bible classes and spevka with the rest. Was Christ’s forgiveness here?

 

In another instance the same elder had a granddaughter who had a child out of wedlock. After some time passed, the great grandfather had a repeated revelation as if Christ kept asking him, why haven’t you prayed for the baby yet. He told the church elders about the revelation, and what he was going to do and invited some people to a prayer where the young mother tearfully asked for forgiveness. None of the church elders appeared but a few people came and all attendees were in tears during the ceremony because the love of Christ and forgiveness was in that room. During this prayer her baby was Christened by our ritual to become a member of our community of believers and to write her name in the Book of Life. Was Christ’s forgiveness here?

 

Unfortunately we have many Molokans who do not believe Jesus meant what he said. Especially the presbyters and elders who believe and teach others they are defending God’s laws by rejecting sinners. The following two chapters are what Jesus did and said.

 

John 8

1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Matthew 18

1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

10Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

[ligonier 0]

You guys are saying to forgive the one who gets pregnant...Forgive them for what? For getting pregnant and having a child of not russian blood? What if she got pregnant by a Molokan? Would you guys just sa y..."oh that's alright...lets get you two married...you did nothing wrong...just another Molokan tike on the way" Are american babies evil or something?[/color][/b]

I think the point would be to forgive the young woman for getting pregnant before getting married. Regardless of who the father is. With the best-case-scenario being for the father and mother of the child to get married and raise the child in Christ. If they loved each other enough to conceive a child, then they should love each other enough to do right by that child before God, and continue in that commitment for the rest of their lives.

 

Tk1 is correct. Young men, and young women, need to be trained by their parents to abstain, or be ready to accept the consequences of their decisions. Which would mean marrying that person. If children are not taught that there are consequences for their actions, then they become adults who act like children.

 

No babies are evil.

[fountain-drink 0]

/ok

Edited November 21, 2005 by Tk1

[fountain-drink 0]

Face,

Just because what you wrote about is happening, doesn't make it right. It's like your trying to say, hey, my freind just jumped off a cliff and killed himself, so I have to do it too!!!

 

It's all about keeping your pants on until you get married. Period. This is a very sour subject for me, anyone can go on and on about where's the forgiveness, what would Jesus do, blah, blah and on and on, but it all boils down to keeping the pants on until you get married. I'm not coming down on you, you had a fabulous post, but it was almost like you were trying to justify that it's ok to sleep around and get someone pregnant and bring that child to churh and everything is honky dorry. It's not all honkey dorry.

 

Rebellious???? Sleeping around and abusing your own body is no way to be rebellious, what a poor excuse.

 

"Relationships" before marriage is becoming more prevaliant amoung the youth in our narod. It's very disturbing, I do not want my kids to marry someone that has "had" someone else. This is a subject that needs to be taught by the parents and reinforced by the church. It needs to stop being swept under the rug and brought out into the open and discussed and a solution needs to be found.

 

Ligioner;

That was a good post, and yes I agree, No babies are evil.

Edited November 21, 2005 by Tk1

[Russianqt03 0]

You guys are saying to forgive the one who gets pregnant...Forgive them for what? For getting pregnant and having a child of not russian blood? What if she got pregnant by a Molokan? Would you guys just sa y..."oh that's alright...lets get you two married...you did nothing wrong...just another Molokan tike on the way" Are american babies evil or something?[/color][/b]

I think the point would be to forgive the young woman for getting pregnant before getting married. Regardless of who the father is. With the best-case-scenario being for the father and mother of the child to get married and raise the child in Christ. If they loved each other enough to conceive a child, then they should love each other enough to do right by that child before God, and continue in that commitment for the rest of their lives.

 

No babies are evil.

Ligonier...thanks for clarifying.

 

TK...no matter how a parent raises their kid...the kid is still going to do the opposite of what the parents raise them to do. A parent can be very strict on the whole keeping "your pants on" and still it's going to go through one ear and out the other. Not saying that that's the case for all kids...because it's not. If the kid screws up...are you going to blame the parents when the whole time they told the kid "NO...wait until you are married"?? I wouldn't blame the parent's for that. It's the kid's decession. Eh...I'm tired...I'm going to bed...I need to cool off from this discussion...

[fountain-drink 0]

I am going to agree with RussianQt, I am going to cool off from this subject.

[Disciple 0]

Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

 

This is either the true Word of God, or our God's words are useless and he is a liar. Children will go the way a parent trains them, by word, but moreso by deed, and more still by attitude.

[Mitrovitch 0]

Broadway

 

Molokans are a tribe and if someone wants to join our tribe, we should at least consider it. However, there are some who don't want to recognize our group as being a tribe, but rather a racist group of arrogant religious fanatics. I don't believe that we are to keep people out, but they need to adopt our ways. They need to accept the Russian culture, the Molokan culture, kissing people hello, the language, the manner of worship, etc. We should not change for anyone and if you look at Face's examples, each one of them became Molokan. If they decided to speak in English and wear a necktie and serve enchaladas at a doing, they aren't being very Molokan. The problem with allowing in people who are "not ours" is that it is assimilating into mainstream American culture. People can be made "ours," but we are not going to lose what we have because someone says that we need to preach to the whole world and let the world into our churches.

[broadway 0]

Mitro,

I was thinking about this. Back in Russia our forefathers preached the word from village to village, and all who heard and accepted their teachings were accepted.

 

At what point did we become a closed religion?

 

I know there was division after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, is this when it was? (preghuni from postayani)

Or is it when we came here and had to seperate from the nenashe.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Was Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, a molokan?

 

67 Then his father, Zechariah, was filled with the Holy Spirit and gave this prophecy:

68 "Praise the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has visited his people and redeemed them. (Luke 1:68-69 NLT)

 

Were the Disciples molokan?

 

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. (John 14:25-27 NLT)

 

1 On the day of Pentecost, seven weeks after Jesus’ resurrection, the believers were meeting together in one place.

2 Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm in the skies above them, and it filled the house where they were meeting.

3 Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them.

4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability. Acts 2:1-4 NLT)

 

Were the non-molokans in Corinth molokan?

 

19 Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself,

20 for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body. (1Corinthians 6:19-20 NLT)

[steadfast 0]

Mitro,

I was thinking about this.  Back in Russia our forefathers preached the word from village to village, and all who heard and accepted their teachings were accepted.

 

At what point did we become a closed religion?

 

I know there was division after the outpouring of the holy spirit, is this when it was? (preghuni from postayani) 

Or is it when we came here and had to separate from the nenashe.

How do you know for sure that it's God's Holy Spirit? You are taking someone else's word. Tell us how you would test for the authenticity of this preghune spirit. ??????

 

"had to separate from the nenashe" To God a "nenashe" is one who does not have His Spirit. Is that what you meant, please explain?

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Didn't the boy prophet (EGK) give prophecy to the Armenians too?

 

Why would a prophet give info to a group that would save them?

 

Hmmm...

 

The Armenians were an active part of the molokans until someone gave them the boot and the 2nd book was introduced as "gospel"

 

How many molokans have parents or grandparents (or even further back) that were born in Yerevan (or similar)

 

There isn't a "pure" "russian" molokan ANYWHERE

 

So what is a molokan?

[steadfast 0]

Didn't the boy prophet (EGK) give prophecy to the Armenians too?

 

Why would a prophet give info to a group that would save them?

 

Hmmm...

 

The Armenians were an active part of the molokans until someone gave them the boot and the 2nd book was introduced as "gospel"

 

How many molokans have parents or grandparents (or even further back) that were born in Yerevan (or similar)

 

There isn't a "pure" "russian" molokan ANYWHERE

 

So what is a molokan?

Q-What talks like a Christian, believes like a Khlyst and calls themself a Molokan?

A-The beguiled.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, Hi Prophet! No of course not, I wasn't referring to your multi spirited group. Now why would you think that?

[Prophet 0]

Didn't the boy prophet (EGK) give prophecy to the Armenians too?

 

Why would a prophet give info to a group that would save them?

 

Hmmm...

 

The Armenians were an active part of the molokans until someone gave them the boot and the 2nd book was introduced as "gospel"

 

How many molokans have parents or grandparents (or even further back) that were born in Yerevan (or similar)

 

There isn't a "pure" "russian" molokan ANYWHERE

 

So what is a molokan?

Q-What talks like a Christian, believes like a Khlyst and calls themself a Molokan?

A-The beguiled.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, Hi Prophet! No of course not, I wasn't referring to your multi spirited group. Now why would you think that?

Its not a problem for me, steadfast, which molokan your referring to, you have proved time again you are neither.

[Mitrovitch 0]

Broadway,

 

A review of our history shows that we were tight nit for a very long time, essentially a closed society before we came to America. So were the Dukobors and other groups who were not part of the Orthodoxy. After coming to America, there was a deystvia about keeping on to our ways and not becoming part of the American society, which will be our protection. There were also conversions into our belief system, such as with MGR. However, the conversions stopped once we came to America and it may be because of that deystvia.

 

However, proseletyzing has not stopped because people in society see how we are and when they ask what we believe, we tell them. Living a good life and living well because of it is the best way to convert a non-believer to Christ. Going out and forcing scripture down other people's throats only pushes non-believers away and argues over trivial points with believers.

[somebody 0]

Our church's don't allow mexicans, blacks, white americans for numerous reasons.

I believe that we shouldn't. I know that there are many here who disagree or they would like a answer to the "Aren't We are all brothers and sisters in Christ" question, but

 

I was wondering and this is targeted towards my fellow "Maximisti" out there, and I also wouldn't mind hearing the opinions of the others.

 

Lets say you have a daughter and she is out fooling around and get pregnant by a nenash. Now, you can rush off and get an abortion and no one will ever know and everything would be fine in the molokan community. Or she can have the baby and raise it in the molokan home, maybe even with the molokan parents of the girl. (This would be difficult, but in my opinion the right thing to do)

 

What do you do with this child? Should this child of Christ be accepted in a molokan church?

 

Sure the child would be called numerous things like 1/2er, bastard, etc.....

 

But if the child comes to know Christ in this molokan home and loves everything about being a molokan, can we turn this child away? Would Christ himself turn the child away?

No we should not because they are not chosen as we are.

[anakainosis 0]

Our church's don't allow mexicans, blacks, white americans for numerous reasons.

I believe that we shouldn't.  I know that there are many here who disagree or they would like a answer to the "Aren't We are all brothers and sisters in Christ" question, but

 

I was wondering and this is targeted towards my fellow "Maximisti" out there, and I also wouldn't mind hearing the opinions of the others. 

 

Lets say you have a daughter and she is out fooling around and get pregnant by a nenash.  Now, you can rush off and get an abortion and no one will ever know and everything would be fine in the molokan community.  Or she can have the baby and raise it in the molokan home, maybe even with the molokan parents of the girl.  (This would be difficult, but in my opinion the right thing to do)

 

What do you do with this child?  Should this child of Christ be accepted in a molokan church?

 

Sure the child would be called numerous things like 1/2er, bastard, etc.....

 

But if the child comes to know Christ in this molokan home and loves everything about being a molokan, can we turn this child away?  Would Christ himself turn the child away?

No we should not because they are not chosen as we are.

Somebody, for someone to be “Chosen”, what exactly does this mean to you?

 

How do we know who are chosen?

 

Who does the choosing?

 

 

[Mitrovitch 0]

Our church's don't allow mexicans, blacks, white americans for numerous reasons.

I believe that we shouldn't.  I know that there are many here who disagree or they would like a answer to the "Aren't We are all brothers and sisters in Christ" question, but

 

I was wondering and this is targeted towards my fellow "Maximisti" out there, and I also wouldn't mind hearing the opinions of the others. 

 

Lets say you have a daughter and she is out fooling around and get pregnant by a nenash.  Now, you can rush off and get an abortion and no one will ever know and everything would be fine in the molokan community.  Or she can have the baby and raise it in the molokan home, maybe even with the molokan parents of the girl.  (This would be difficult, but in my opinion the right thing to do)

 

What do you do with this child?  Should this child of Christ be accepted in a molokan church?

 

Sure the child would be called numerous things like 1/2er, bastard, etc.....

 

But if the child comes to know Christ in this molokan home and loves everything about being a molokan, can we turn this child away?  Would Christ himself turn the child away?

No we should not because they are not chosen as we are.

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.

 

Oh, that's funny. This should be placed in the humor section.

[broadway 0]

Somebody,

 

When our forefathers were in Russia they went from village to village spreading the true word of God and whoever believed the truth that they were preaching were accepted as brothers and sisters in Christ (This is the same way that the apotles taught) and because of their faith they suffered and God sent to them the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The true Church is the Apostolic Church, I'm sure that you agree with me on this.

 

At what point and why did we stop accepting these outsiders? Why is it OK to keep salvation only for us? I understand that accepting them into our church's would cause problems, but we have this now.

 

You do realize that the chosen will be called from the 4 corners of the earth. When this occurs (the true gathering of all nations) will you be willing to accept them?

Edited December 6, 2005 by broadway

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Somebody,

 

When our forefathers were in Russia they went from village to village spreading the true word of God and whoever believed the truth that they were preaching were accepted as brothers and sisters in Christ <<snip>>

 

At what point and why did we stop accepting these outsiders?  Why is it OK to keep salvation only for us?  I understand that accepting them into our church's would cause problems, but we have this now.

 

You do realize that the chosen will be called from the 4 corners of the earth.  When this occurs (the true gathering of all nations) will you be willing to accept them?

Exactly...

 

EGK gave the prophecy to the molokans AND the Armenians (Demos Shakirian - Grandfather to Demos of the FGB)

 

Why aren't the Christian Armenians alowed in the molokan "church" anymore?

 

They we given the "boot" decades ago... Why?

 

Aren't we all one in Christ?

 

According to Scripture we are

 

Read more about Demos here...

 

Demos Info

[Disciple 0]

EGK gave the prophecy to the molokans AND the Armenians (Demos Shakirian - Grandfather to Demos of the FGB)

 

Why aren't the Christian Armenians alowed in the molokan "church" anymore?

 

They we given the "boot" decades ago... Why?

True, Effim Gerasimovich prophesied to Demos, and they even gathered together when one group passed through anothers village. But be sure to note that both sides understood that they were seperate, neither leader ever made it okay to intermarry with the other. I am sure you have read "the happiest people". When they came here they were still seperate, but as both sides were bombarded by americanism they began to seperate. Until now when either side knows very little about the other.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

EGK gave the prophecy to the molokans AND the Armenians (Demos Shakirian - Grandfather to Demos of the FGB)

 

Why aren't the Christian Armenians alowed in the molokan "church" anymore?

 

They we given the "boot" decades ago... Why?

True, Effim Gerasimovich prophesied to Demos, and they even gathered together when one group passed through anothers village. But be sure to note that both sides understood that they were seperate, neither leader ever made it okay to intermarry with the other. I am sure you have read "the happiest people". When they came here they were still seperate, but as both sides were bombarded by americanism they began to seperate. Until now when either side knows very little about the other.

This is not true if you know your history

 

The molokans AND armenians held services together in various churches including padval

 

You might want to do some research

 

What about the "dark russians"

 

You know the ones who's family were born in Yerevan (Armenia)

 

I think it might be too late to "keep 'em separated"

[ligonier 0]

True, Effim Gerasimovich prophesied to Demos, and they even gathered together when one group passed through anothers village. But be sure to note that both sides understood that they were seperate, neither leader ever made it okay to intermarry with the other. I am sure you have read "the happiest people". When they came here they were still seperate, but as both sides were bombarded by americanism they began to seperate. Until now when either side knows very little about the other.

I'm going to have to agree with Seeking on this one, many of us molokans have Armenian blood in our past, some more recent than others.

[Disciple 0]

I agree, I am not saying that it didn't happen. I am saying that the two groups kept seperate as a rule. Though I am sure there was intermarraige. Also before that our people were never a pure blood people, in russia we came from everywhere.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

I agree, I am not saying that it didn't happen.  I am saying that the two groups kept seperate as a rule.  Though I am sure there was intermarraige.  Also before that our people were never a pure blood people, in russia we came from everywhere.

o.k.

 

Then to the original question posed in this thread "Should We Allow Nesahe To Our Gatherings"

 

If the russians have a mixed lineage including amenian, turkish and a whole host of other ethnic influences, who or what is Ne-Nash?

 

Also, why is there a separation?

Who imposed such behavior?

[dhshubin 0]

personally I find seeking_fault_1's argument very shallow if he/she should compare with the Russian Molokans of today a marginal descent of some great-grandparent - and by now in America it would have to be at least a great-grandparent - having had been part Armenian or Turkish, or if you even go back far enough, a Mongol from the occupation of Russia by Mongols in the period 1240-1480. The Mongols that remained in Russia - who did not return to Mongolia - were called Tatars, and the ones that intermarried with Russians during the occupation period were called Mordovians.

 

The fact that perhaps a marriage of this type occured in Russia is moot as far as the 21th century is concerned, because once arriving in America, and now about 100 years ago, and these were your great-grandparents, the dedicated Molokans only married and associated with their own, as was commanded by the Holy Spirit shortly after our arrival here. Every one since your great-grandparents arrived in America married within the general Russian Molokan community, and which Maxim Gavrilovich clearly states for us to do.

 

To use the argument that such a marriage in Russia may have occurred to justify intermarriage or association with the melting-pot Americans is desparation, it has been well over 4 generations anyway. It is only obvious at the present who a non-Molokan is, and who has married outside the Molokan community to some melting-pot American since the arrival to America. It is not a matter of racial purity, but to preclude compromise of the faith with ecumenical Christendom and who-knows-what-they-believe and practise. Again, back to the prohibition of Deut 7:3.

[Disciple 0]

Molokans only married and associated with their own, as was commanded by the Holy Spirit shortly after our arrival here.

In understand the reference to Deuteronomy, but do you have written record of these words of The Holy Spirit? I have heard a lot about it, but have never read any record of it.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

First you need to quote the passage in it's context

 

Who was it written to...the molokans? Nope... The Jews

 

Are you a Jew, Danny...? Nope...You're not

 

What was God warning His people about?

 

Not to intermarry with whom?...Pagans

 

People that deny YHVH and worship other "gods"

 

Please cease in your attempt to veil un-Biblical racism in psuedo-spirituality

 

 

 

"When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you.

2 When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy.

3 Do not intermarry with them, and don’t let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters.

4 They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you.

5 Instead, you must break down their pagan altars and shatter their sacred pillars. Cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols. (Deuteronomy 7:1-5 NLT)

[dhshubin 0]

seeking_fault-1:

because these people have an interpretation of the Bible - or whatever they believe in - that is not concordant or consistent with the Molokan, they are:

People that deny YHVH and worship other "gods"

 

because their god tells them something different than what our God tells us.

 

If they did worship YHWH, they would not believe in the 3-god concept of deity. Such ecumenical Christians live in feel-good, marry-who-you-want, grace-land, while they wait for the rapture.

 

i hardly have time to peruse the forum and miss a lot; back to my busy schedule

[seeking_truth_1 0]

seeking_fault-1:

because these people have an interpretation of the Bible - or whatever they believe in - that is not concordant or consistent with the Molokan, they are:

People that deny YHVH and worship other "gods"

 

because their god tells them something different than what our God tells us.

 

If they did worship YHWH, they would not believe in the 3-god concept of deity. Such ecumenical Christians live in feel-good, marry-who-you-want, grace-land, while they wait for the rapture.

 

i hardly have time to peruse the forum and miss a lot; back to my busy schedule

Who is "your" god?

 

Are you inferring that because:

1) I don't "get down and jump around" (See 1 Corinthians 14:33)

2) I believe that it's by Grace you are saved not of works (See Ephesians 2:8)

3) I believe that there isn't molokan super race and all ethnicities should be welcomed (See James 2:1)

4) I believe there are only 2 type of people Christians and Non-Christians regardless of skin color (See Galatians 3:26)

5) I believe that the observation of Mosaic food laws are optional and not requisite for Salvation (See Acts 10:9)

6) I believe we are required to share the Gospel to all (2Corinthians 5:19)

 

That I'm a pagan?

 

Puuulleeeeze

 

Perhaps if you opened up a Bible and read you would know these things and relegate that 2nd book to kindling

[Mitrovitch 0]

Seeking Truth 1:

 

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. You wrote "Who was it written to...the molokans? Nope... The Jews," which I presume you mean the Old Testament, but then you write "Perhaps if you opened up a Bible and read you would know these things and relegate that 2nd book to kindling," which the 2nd book on the table has long been understood to be the New Testment.

 

1. Does the Old Testment apply to us?

2. Does all of the New Testment apply to us?

3. Is the God of the Old Testment different than the God of the New Testment?

4. In your understanding, is the God of David Yesseich, Lukian Petrovitch, MGR, and Efim Gerasimich different than the God of Old/New Testament?

5. Which Books do you consider scripture?

6. If Sadam Hussein, Hitler, Polpot, and Stalin all came to your door, would you invite them all in to dinner and who would you have sit next to you?

7. If Joseph Ratzinger comes to your church, do you let him join? Do you have him sit with the ministers?

[seeking_truth_1 0]

First, answer these 2 simple questions

 

Is Jesus the Son of God?

Is Salvation obtained by Grace?

[Mitrovitch 0]

Typically, when someone asks a question, an answer is given prior to asking another question. However, I will first respond to your questions, seeing how you are a “head preacher,” I will defer to your wiseness.

 

1. Christ is the Son of God. Those who have Christ in them are also the sons of God. Jesus was “Anointed” and was therefore the Son of God.

2. The term “Grace” is multifaceted and has many meanings. I believe that it is God’s mercy by which he gives us clemency, i.e. an opportunity to be His sons and daughters. When we take that step to becoming a brother/sister of Jesus, i.e. becoming a son or daughter of God, through the “Anointing” of the Holy Spirit, then God accepts us into His fold. God doesn’t have to, but He does anyway. I do not believe that all humans are children of God and those who refuse to take that step to becoming a spiritual person are doomed to perdition.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Seeking Truth 1:

 

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.  You wrote "Who was it written to...the molokans? Nope... The Jews," which I

 

presume you mean the Old Testament, but then you write "Perhaps if you opened up a Bible and read you would know these things and

 

relegate that 2nd book to kindling," which the 2nd book on the table has long been understood to be the New Testment.

 

1. Does the Old Testment apply to us?

2. Does all of the New Testment apply to us?

3. Is the God of the Old Testment different than the God of the New Testment?

4. In your understanding, is the God of David Yesseich, Lukian Petrovitch, MGR, and Efim Gerasimich different than the God of

 

Old/New Testament?

5. Which Books do you consider scripture?

6. If Sadam Hussein, Hitler, Polpot, and Stalin all came to your door, would you invite them all in to dinner and who would you have sit next to you?

7. If Joseph Ratzinger comes to your church, do you let him join?  Do you have him sit with the ministers?

Easy Enough...

 

The 2nd Book is not the New Testament rather the S & L

 

I view the OT and NT all as one

 

1. Does the Old Testment apply to us? Yes

 

2. Does all of the New Testment apply to us? Yes

 

3. Is the God of the Old Testment different than the God of the New Testment? No

 

4. In your understanding, is the God of David Yesseich, Lukian Petrovitch, MGR, and Efim Gerasimich different than the God of

 

Old/New Testament?

 

This is can be a very long and detailed reply. To cut the chase, their writings are extra-Biblical and in many instances

 

contrary to Scripture. I cannot speak about David Yesseich, Lukian Petrovitch specifically because I have not done enough

 

research to comment. However the "god" of EGK & mgr doesn't seem to be the God of the Bible (as viewed by their writings)

 

I view them as historical documents with little or no accurate historical value

 

5. Which Books do you consider scripture? The 66 Book Bible

 

6. If Sadam Hussein, Hitler, Polpot, and Stalin all came to your door, would you invite them all in to dinner and who would you

 

have sit next to you?

 

Odd question...Would they all pull up in a Shriner/Clown car? Sounds like a Fellini film. Seriously...Would I? I only do what I see the father do.

 

As Jesus was going down the road, he saw Matthew sitting at his tax–collection booth. "Come, be my disciple," Jesus said to him. So Matthew got up and followed him.

10 That night Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to be his dinner guests, along with his fellow tax collectors and many other notorious sinners.

11 The Pharisees were indignant. "Why does your teacher eat with such scum?" they asked his disciples.

12 When he heard this, Jesus replied, "Healthy people don’t need a doctor––sick people do." (Matthew 9:9-12 NLT)

 

I wouldn't have them do my taxes or babysit, but if they were available and I could share the Gospel with them, I would. I also would not do it in my own strength or alone Spiritually or physically speaking

 

7. If Joseph Ratzinger comes to your church, do you let him join? Do you have him sit with the ministers?

 

We don't have membership or place financial burdens on families to hear the Word of God. Would he sit with the pastor...? nope. However, if he wanted to take a seat somewhere in the church to listen to the message, he would be welcome.

[broadway 0]

Mitro,

I was thinking about this.  Back in Russia our forefathers preached the word from village to village, and all who heard and accepted their teachings were accepted.

 

At what point did we become a closed religion?

 

I know there was division after the outpouring of the holy spirit, is this when it was? (preghuni from postayani) 

Or is it when we came here and had to separate from the nenashe.

How do you know for sure that it's God's Holy Spirit? You are taking someone else's word. Tell us how you would test for the authenticity of this preghune spirit. ??????

 

"had to separate from the nenashe" To God a "nenashe" is one who does not have His Spirit. Is that what you meant, please explain?

When our forefathers just arrived in this country there was an old, wealthy woman who greeted them at the port. Now this woman had this re-occuring dream, she saw very vividly our people arriving. So she would always go to the part to see these people when they arrived. Sure enough when she saw our fathers arrive she had these words for them: Do not lose your native tongue, Do not lose your way of dress, Do not lose your way of life, or we will lose our children.

 

NOTE: I'm going by memory here if I made a mistake in what she said at the time maybe someone can help me with that. Maybe dhshubin or Mitro can correct me on her message.

 

 

So, here in my opinion is a prophesy, or warning. Not given to us by a prehgun, or even a molokan. But by some stranger who met our forefathers to deliver a message from God.

 

So I'm thinking that because of a "Destvia" delivered by a ne-nash, is this why we exclude them? "Our thoughts are not Gods thoughts" Could this be Gods mercy, protection for his people.

[steadfast 0]

Mitro,

I was thinking about this.  Back in Russia our forefathers preached the word from village to village, and all who heard and accepted their teachings were accepted.

 

At what point did we become a closed religion?

 

I know there was division after the outpouring of the holy spirit, is this when it was? (preghuni from postayani) 

Or is it when we came here and had to separate from the nenashe.

How do you know for sure that it's God's Holy Spirit? You are taking someone else's word. Tell us how you would test for the authenticity of this preghune spirit. ??????

 

"had to separate from the nenashe" To God a "nenashe" is one who does not have His Spirit. Is that what you meant, please explain?

When our forefathers just arrived in this country there was an old, wealthy woman who greeted them at the port. Now this woman had this re-occuring dream, she saw very vividly our people arriving. So she would always go to the part to see these people when they arrived. Sure enough when she saw our fathers arrive she had these words for them: Do not lose your native tongue, Do not lose your way of dress, Do not lose your way of life, or we will lose our children.

 

NOTE: I'm going by memory here if I made a mistake in what she said at the time maybe someone can help me with that. Maybe dhshubin or Mitro can correct me on her message.

 

 

So, here in my opinion is a prophesy, or warning. Not given to us by a prehgun, or even a molokan. But by some stranger who met our forefathers to deliver a message from God.

 

So I'm thinking that because of a "Destvia" delivered by a ne-nash, is this why we exclude them? "Our thoughts are not Gods thoughts" Could this be Gods mercy, protection for his people.

 

Dyestva or Not!

 

Gasoline prices will spike upward after the next severe hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico.

 

The next world dictator will be caught, tried in court or killed.

[RedOctober 0]

Broadway, you are fairly close to the account.

 

The ultimate irony here is, a non-Molokan told us not to marry non-Molokans. This is definately a unique phenomenon here in the U.S. as in Russia, converts are accepted. Something of interest, if MGR were born today to an American family....what would be the case? Something extremist don't like to bring up.

 

But the wisdom of the woman was most definately prevelant. If we converted Americans and brought them in, we would most certainly woulnd't be talking here on the net today as Molokans would have been assimilated in the Melting Pot.

 

The ideology behind immigrants here in the US is to have them assimilate in culture, language and blood. That way no group can be considered "Itallian", "German", etc. Allowing immigrants to keep thier own unique identity led to problems for the U.S. (see your history book).

 

Note: Origon of Melting Pot: Henry Ford held pageants in which workers would don there native clothing and sing in thier native toungue....all at once the result was no uniformity and undeciperable jibberish. The next act would feature the same workers now in Ford Uniforms and all singing in American English in unison in what he called the Melting Pot. A stark contrast from conformity to uniqueness.

[Mitrovitch 0]

Seeking Truth 1

With regard to your responses, I have a few follow-up questions:

 

You said that “the "god" of EGK & mgr doesn't seem to be the God of the Bible (as viewed by their writings)”[/COLOR] Can you identify a name of the “‘god’ of EGK & mgr?” To save some time, MGR does not say to pray to him, but, as far as I understand, says to pray to the God referred to in the Bible. I don’t know of anyone who actually believes that MGR is a god, not Dyadza Bill Prohoroff and his group, not the Clark Avenue group, not the Blue Top group, not anyone. I’ve seen references to passages in the S&L where a few individuals have indicated that MGR claims to be god, but when I went back and read those passages, I didn’t see it. I could see how it could be interpreted in that way, but with read in the context of all of the other writings before and after it simply did not warrant such interpretation. If the God which MGR and EGK wrote about were different from the God of the Bible, I would not utilize the writings of MGR & EGK. However, I have not seen the difference.

 

You said that what you consider scripture is “The 66 Book Bible.” Do you reject the Russian Bible because it has more than 66 books or just section that is considered the Apocrypha in the KJV?

 

You said “I only do what I see the father do.” When Jesus was teaching how to pray, do you interpret the scripture to state that he was saying for the people to pray to him when he said to address their prayers “Our Father ...”? Do you interpret scripture to mean that Jesus is the Father?

 

In my question of whether Joseph Ratzinger would be permitted to join your church was not intended as a question of whether you would attempt to extract funds from him, but rather if you would permit him to participate in the service. He is a Christian. He reads the Bible. He is the most respected pastor in his church. Albeit, he would be considered “ne nash,” but he is very well versed in delivering messages to a congregation. Is he to be permanently relegated to “take a seat somewhere in the church to listen to the message” or would he be permitted to participate in services. At what point would he be considered qualified enough to participate in services?

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Seeking Truth 1

With regard to your responses, I have a few follow-up questions:

 

You said that “the "god" of EGK & mgr doesn't seem to be the God of the Bible (as viewed by their writings)”[/COLOR]  Can you identify a name of the “‘god’ of EGK & mgr?” 

 

I said the the "god" of mgr & egk does not seem to be the God of the Bible

I cannot tell you his name specifically, however based upon their writings that run contrary to Scripture and are anti-Christian, all I can say is that their "god" isn't YHVH

 

To save some time, MGR does not say to pray to him, but, as far as I understand, says to pray to the God referred to in the Bible.

 

mgr DOES state that your prayers should come through him

 

Bk. 10 Art. 12 Ver. 7

I [M.G.R.] am the seven-story ladder under heaven; all the heavenly powers eternally ascend and descend by way of Me for the prayers of the saints.

 

Bk. 10 Art. 12 Ver. 5

I [M.G.R.] am the gateway to Zion, loved by the Lord more than all the dwellings of Jacob

 

I’ve seen references to passages in the S&L where a few individuals have indicated that MGR claims to be god, but when I went back and read those passages, I didn’t see it.

 

Book 9 Art. 15 Ver. 7

Therefore I, Maxim, am now called by His new name: King of Spirits and God of the faithful of all the lands

 

Book 9 Art. 15 Ver. 9

A new song we sing, a new song we sing; the King of Spirits we praise the King of Spirits we praise

 

The Bible states

 

You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! I do not leave unpunished the sins of those who hate me, but I punish the children for the sins of their parents to the third and fourth generations. (Exodus 20:5 NLT)

 

 

It comes down to a matter of which book is authoritative

 

Since the S & L contains "doctrine" that is contrary to the Bible, which is used as the ultimate truth?

 

Since only one can be true in contrarian statements, which is it

 

I vote Bible and dump the S & L

 

You said that what you consider scripture is “The 66 Book Bible.”  Do you reject the Russian Bible because it has more than 66 books or just section that is considered the Apocrypha in the KJV?

 

I look at the apocrypha and see many of the things that molokans do but yet catholic bash

 

Let's see... The doctrine of purgatory and prayer for the dead

 

In addition , the Apocrypha contains errors.

Tobit was supposedly alive when Jereboam staged his revolt in 931 B.C.

 

Also that he was still alive when the Assyrians captured the Northern kingdom of Israel in 721 B.C. making him over 210 years old

Yet the book of tobit contradicts that stating he lived only 158 years (Tobit 1:3-5; 14:11)

You said “I only do what I see the father do.” When Jesus was teaching how to pray, do you interpret the scripture to state that he was saying for the people to pray to him when he said to address their prayers “Our Father ...”?  Do you interpret scripture to mean that Jesus is the Father? 

Jesus is God. He said it. That's why the religious leaders wanted to stone him for blasphemy

 

Your ancestor Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."

57 The people said, "You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"

59 At that point they picked up stones to kill him. But Jesus hid himself from them and left the Temple. (john 8:56-59 NLT)

 

In my question of whether Joseph Ratzinger would be permitted to join your church was not intended as a question of whether you would attempt to extract funds from him, but rather if you would permit him to participate in the service.  He is a Christian.  He reads the Bible.  He is the most respected pastor in his church.  Albeit, he would be considered “ne nash,” but he is very well versed in delivering messages to a congregation.  Is he to be permanently relegated to “take a seat somewhere in the church to listen to the message” or would he be permitted to participate in services.  At what point would he be considered qualified enough to participate in services?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "participate in services"

If you mean would he be allowed to teach, I say no

 

You say he's a Christian, yet doctrinally, the catholic "church" seems to take a pluralistic approach to Salvation.

 

It's a dash of Mary worship, mixed with an equal part works and add a measure of the prayers of the living to get the dearly departed into Heaven. Based upon that, he would not be allowed a platform to teach un-Biblical doctrine

 

Like many "preachers" in the molokan "church" today. They say they are Christian yet their "doctrine" negates that claim

 

That should about cover it

[Mitrovitch 0]

The way that I read scripture, a feature of God exists in each of us who accept Him. It is God dwelling within us. There is a difference between God dwelling within us and with or amongst us. Those who read the Bible and study and study have the word of God with them, but not within them. Once you begin to hear revelation from God directly, that is God dwelling within you. Jesus had this and was teaching his followers this. The Apostles had this and taught it. Maxim continued this work.

 

For those who have the Word of God within them (i.e. direct revelation from God), then they have the authority of God. All true prophets have the authority of God, which is why we consider their words the Word of God. The quotations you cited were Maxim rebuking anyone who disagreed with this concept, especially the Orthodox church which had imprisoned him. When I read 9:15:7-9, I read Maxim rebuking the Orthodox church because of the Truth that he has inside of him and for the fact that the Orthodox church is imprisoning him so that the Truth which he speaks will not be spread.

 

This concept is reiterated in 10:12:1, which Maxim says that in the Spirit he is a king and prophet. There is no one, except Christ (aka King of kings), who has authority over him. He is also a messenger of the Word of God (i.e. a prophet). In writing Book 10 Article 12, he is describing the power of God which is within him. This power is the power of the prophet, which is no different than when Jesus said that he has done miracles, but the Apostles will do even greater things. The power is within all of us.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

To The Top

Who are "nenashe"