Is Jesus God?

seeking_truth_1 · April 27, 2006

The question pretty much says it all...

AYOTC · April 28, 2006

I believe there is a better way to state this question.

Who was/is Jesus?

seeking_truth_1 · April 28, 2006

51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

52 Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’

53 "Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?"

54 Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.

55 "Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.

56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

(John 8:51:59 NKJV)

Note verse 58

Why would He say that?

Why would the false religious leaders want to stone Him for the statement?

little koshka · April 28, 2006

He said that because He is God.

The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit - all one in the same.

They acted that way because they did not believe.

They did not have faith.

Some still do not believe.

Some have their eyes, ears, and hearts tightly shut.

fourvetta · April 28, 2006

No man has ever seen God and lived.

AYOTC · April 28, 2006

I agree with the statement that no man has ever seen God and lived. I believe this makes the topic very controversial though. If you say this and accept the Gospel from John as we know it today, there are inconsistencies. The Muslims and Jews have also stated that both the apostles and the early churches of Christianity skewed the Gospel of Jesus. Two-thousand years later hear we are with text which really comes to us told through translations and after hundreds of years in which many feel the Gospel was tweaked every once in a while to accommodate the needs of the people. I believe the only compromise we can reach on this issue is through prayer.

seeking_truth_1 · April 28, 2006

Jesus is making the obvious statement that He is God in the John 8 passage (Ref: Exodus 3:13-14)

Why else would the religious want to kill him?

Also take a look at

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (John 1:1-4 NKJV)

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NKJV)

The Word is God and He became flesh and dwelt among us

Who is the Word?

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. And the one sitting on the horse was named Faithful and True. For he judges fairly and then goes to war.

12 His eyes were bright like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him, and only he knew what it meant.

13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God. (Revelation 19:11-13 NKJV)

continuing in verse 16

On his robe and thigh was written this title: King of kings and Lord of lords. (Revelation 19:16 NKJV)

Who is Lord of Lords?

16 Therefore, cleanse your sinful hearts and stop being stubborn.

17 "The LORD your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords. He is the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and takes no bribes. (Deuteronomy 10:16-17 NKJV)

So The Word

1) Was with God

2) Was in the beginning with God

3) Took on a physical form a dwelled on Earth

4) Is King of Kings and Lord of Lords

5) Is God

6) Is Jesus

Crack open a Bible and read the passages for yourself

fourvetta · April 29, 2006

I agree with the statement that no man has ever seen God and lived. I believe this makes the topic very controversial though. If you say this and accept the Gospel from John as we know it today, there are inconsistencies.

Moses also said that He was God. If you take it out of context.

Remember the first commandment? “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

Christ is pretty clear. "The words which I speak to you are not mine, but My Father who sent Me."

31"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.

32There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid.

33"You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth.

34Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.

35John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.

36"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me.

37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Just because someone is well versed in the scriptures does not mean that they have seen God or heard His voice.

In verse 39 above, the Pharasees and scribes thought that because they knew the scriptures by heart that they knew God. When in actuality the Word of God did not abide within them.

The devil is very well versed in the scriptures. He dwells in it. The scripture is made to a stumbling block for those who do not believe.

7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,and A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

Yes, the unbeliever is predestined to stumble at the Word of God.

The Word of God is not a book, but the Word of God became flesh and dwelt among us as the scripture says.

The Word of God shall be made manifest in the flesh.

Satan is also made manifest in the flesh.

24.Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.

25.But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.

26.When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27."The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'

28." 'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

29." 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.

30.Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

Edited April 29, 2006 by fourvetta

seeking_truth_1 · April 29, 2006

In Jesus' conversation with the false religious leaders He said

56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (John 8:56-59 NKJV)

fourvetta, what did Jesus mean by the statement "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

That statement IS NOT out of context from the passage

Why did they false religious leaders want to kill Him for making that statement?

What was wrong with what He said?

anonymous · April 30, 2006

fourvetta
Today, 06:13 AM

Post #5

No man has ever seen God and lived.

“Thomas said to HIM, ‘LORD, we do not know where YOU are going, and how can we know the way?’

JESUS said to him, ‘I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. No one comes to THE FATHER except through ME.

If you had known ME, you would have known MY FATHER also; and from now on you know HIM and have seen HIM.

Philip said to HIM, ‘LORD, show us THE FATHER, and it is sufficient for us.’

JESUS said to him, ‘Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known ME, Philip? He who has seen ME has seen THE FATHER; so how can you say, ‘Show us THE FATHER?’ Do you not believe that I am in THE FATHER, and THE FATHER in ME? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on MY own authority; but THE FATHER WHO dwells in ME does the works. Believe ME that I am in THE FATHER and THE FATHER in ME, or else believe ME for the sake of the works themselves.’” (John 14:5-11)

WHO is Philip asking JESUS to show the apostles?

ANSWER: THE FATHER

What is JESUS’ answer?

If you had known ME, you would have known MY FATHER also; and from now on you know HIM and have seen HIM (verse 7).

Know WHO and have seen WHO? THE FATHER.

JESUS is telling the apostles that from now on (from that moment in time) they know and have seen THE FATHER.......YHWH.......GOD.......and they lived to tell about it.

In chapter 11 of his epistle to the Hebrew CHRISTians, the author of the book wrote with respect to faith, THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and true believers. In the final passage of chapter 11 (verse 39), he concludes regarding those who lived by faith prior to JESUS:

“And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, GOD having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us” (verses 39-40).

In chapter 12 he speaks to and of those who have accepted and believed in JESUS CHRIST as their LORD AND SAVIOR, i.e., believers in THE TRUTH.......true believers:

“Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto JESUS, THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER of our faith, WHO for the joy that was set before HIM endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of GOD” (verses 1-2).

What needs pointing out to mgr’s faithful followers at this juncture, is the truth that JESUS IS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER of a true believer’s faith because a true believer's faith is in.......THE TRUTH (John 14:6), not Uklein, not Dalmatov, not Sokoloff, and most assuredly not a licentious heretic named mgr.

REPEAT: JESUS IS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER of a true believer’s faith, and it is GOD HIMSELF, WHO IS SPIRIT, THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHO IS THE PRECEPTOR (teacher/tutor) of those with the one and same faith the writer of Hebrews describes in chapter 11 (i.e., patriarchs, prophets, and saints of antiquity), as well as of those thereafter to whom HE HIMSELF has given this gift [of faith] through which to love/obey, trust, extol, glorify, honor, magnify, and worship HIM.

In verses 18-21 of this same chapter (12), the author compares the dreadful mountain Sinai (representative of the old covenant of law which exposed mankind’s falling short of GOD’S standard of justice and righteousness):

“For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. (For they could not endure what was commanded: ‘And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.’ And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, ‘I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.’

---to Mount Zion and the city of the living GOD, the heavenly [eternal] Jerusalem (representative of the new covenant of grace and forgiveness of sins by/through the blood of THE LAMB, our LORD AND SAVIOR, JESUS).

In these passages (22-24), the author describes the glorious company to whom believers and followers of THE TRUTH, i.e., true believers, have come.

“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living GOD, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in Heaven, to GOD the JUDGE of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to JESUS THE MEDIATOR of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.”

In one of his posts, mitrovitch stated:

MGR is our leader to Zion. Other groups have their leaders, going to the same place. If you don’t want to follow him to the mountain, then pave your own way or find someone else to follow.” (Response to Dan S h u b i n thread, Oct 11 2005, 04:01 PM).

It is grievous to observe the ignorant actions of looking, like Lot’s wife, to fallibility and wickedness instead of looking to JESUS, THE WORD OF GOD WHO IS GOD, by those who imagine themselves “spiritually mature.”

If they thought about it, WHO could be more “spiritual” than GOD HIMSELF WHO IS SPIRIT, THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHO indwells and teaches/tutors HIS faithful ones?

And in verses 25-29, the author warns about rejecting THE LORD WHO IS GOD, and explains the kind of KINGDOM inherited by YHWH’S faithful ones:

“See that you do not refuse HIM WHO speaks. For if they did not escape who refused HIM WHO spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from HIM WHO speaks from Heaven, WHOSE VOICE then shook the earth; but now HE has promised, saying, ‘Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also Heaven.’ Now this, ‘Yet once more, indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Therefore, since we are receiving a KINGDOM which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve GOD acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our GOD is a consuming fire.”

Based upon the writer of Hebrews' revelation regarding true believers already having come to Mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem by way of THE WAY (JESUS’ blood), CHRISTians categorically rule out mgr, and anyone else for that matter, as “leader(s)” to Mount Zion.

Then again, mitrovitch and his s&l clan aren’t CHRISTians; they are mgr's "new Israel priguni," which by the way, are nowhere to be found in THE LORD GOD’S BOOK (aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES)....

coffee · April 30, 2006

.

No man has ever seen God and lived. - fourvetta, Post # 5

I agree with the statement that no man has ever seen God and lived. - AYOTC, Post # 6

From the Bible:

Jacob named the place Peniel (God's Face) because he said, “I saw God face-to-face and lived to tell the story!" (corresponding text from Genesis 32:30, The Message Bible)

The name "Peniel" means literally "The face of God".

.

coffee · May 1, 2006

.

The questions are often asked:

If Jesus is God....

1) To what God is He ascending to?

Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17)

If Jesus is God....

2) What "God" has forsaken Him?

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)

If Jesus is God....

3) Who is this "God" that Jesus mentions time and again?

The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. (Revelation 3:12)

If Jesus is God....

4) Who is Jesus talking about when He said, "I know Him"? Is God talking about knowing Himself?

But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. (John 8:55)

First of all, it is written in the Scriptures this way:

"....I have not yet ascended to My Father...." (John 20:17)

Who is "My Father"? This is obviously God the Father. Again, what is written?

"....and there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we are for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

However, it does not end there. It is written that the Father is God, as in God the Father, but what is written in the Bible about the identity of this "one Lord", Jesus Christ?

Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. (Deuteronomy 4:39)

Who is "the Lord"? How does David refer to Him?

For in You, O Lord, I hope; You will hear, O Lord My God. (Psalm 38:15)

Preserve me, O God, for in You I put my trust. O my soul, you have said to the Lord, "You are my Lord, My goodness is nothing apart from You." (Psalm 16:1-2)

David openly refers to "the Lord" as "My God".

The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." (Psalm 110:1)

If we follow what is written in the Bible, David explains that "the Lord", who is God in heaven and on earth (from Deuteronomy 4:39), states to "my Lord" (according to King David in Psalm 16:1-2, this is God), for God to sit at God's right hand until God makes God's enemies God's footstool.

How is this possible? God is speaking to Himself, and He is telling Himself to sit at His own right hand until He makes His (God's) enemies His footstool.

This clearly does not make any sense....unless one has been enlightened by the Holy Spirit to understand perhaps the deepest of all "deep spiritual mysteries"....which is the miracle of God becoming human flesh in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

From the Bible:

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

He (the Lord Jesus Christ) is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his (God's) nature, and he (the Lord Jesus Christ) upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

For to which of the angels did God ever say,

"You are my Son, today I have begotten you"?

Or again,

"I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,

"Let all God's angels worship him."

Of the angels he says,

"He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire."

But of the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions." (Hebrews 1:1-8)

According to this Scripture, the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, is God. The Scripture clearly testifies that God (God the Father) addresses the Son as God, and proclaims that "Your throne, O God" (God the Son) is forever.

In the very next sentence, God again addresses the Son by telling Him that "therefore God, your God" has anointed You (Your throne, O God) with a special anointing.

In other words, according to what is written in the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God, and one of His most important tasks while on earth was to reveal, make known and teach His followers about God, His God, Who is God the Father.

So, the answer to these questions are....

1) The Lord Jesus Christ, Who the Scriptures describe as God, ascended to God the Father in John 20:17.

2) The Lord Jesus Christ, Who the Scriptures describe as God, was addressing God the Father when He was dying on the cross in Matthew 27:46.

3) When the Lord Jesus Christ, Who the Scriptures describe as God, addressed the people of the church in Philadelphia in Revelation 3:12 about “My God”, He was speaking about God the Father.

4) When the Lord Jesus Christ, Who the Scriptures describe as God, spoke about “knowing Him”, He was revealing his knowledge of God the Father, in the most intimate sense of the word, since according to what is written in the Bible, He is “One” with the Father.

.

steadfast · May 2, 2006

Yes Jesus is God.

…..."To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 9:5, ESV)

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form," Col 2:9 NIV

"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," (Titus 2:13, ESV)

anakainosis · May 2, 2006

Coffee, it seems to me that there are a few who still think they have the Trinity doctrine all figured out and think they have refuted it easily with scripture. But the fact is they totally misrepresent the trinity doctrine in their assertions.

When they begin their argument by saying, “The following passages clearly say that the Trinity is false.” Then they follow up with passages that show the distinct persons of God the Father and the Son. They triumphantly claim victory.

Clearly these people have not looked into the Trinity doctrine for themselves to get a clearer understanding. It’s like they build up this fake straw man in place of the real Trinity doctrine then knocks it down easily with scripture, even though they have a false assumption of what Trinitarians believe.

An example of what Trinitarians believe:

“The Trinity: God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God.” (Wayne Grudem)

Three persons, yet one God.

It surprises me how someone still thinks that when we call Jesus God we are saying that Jesus and the Father are the same person, so they start quoting verses where Jesus’ talks to his Father as if it were to prove someone wrong.

Three separate persons, yet one God.

It still surprises me that people will blindly try to prove that the Trinity doctrine is wrong. Yet, they know full well that scripture exists to show- that all three are God.

Father (1 Person), Son (Another person), and Holy Spirit (And yet another separate person)

3 persons who are fully God = ONE GOD not three gods

What surprises me even more our Russian Molokan forefathers were Trinitarians, and some wish to believe that was never the case.

steadfast · May 2, 2006

What surprises me even more our Russian Molokan forefathers were Trinitarians, and some wish to believe that was never the case.

This Paska 2006, at the young kids doing up north, a besednic used the phrase "those Trinitarians" in a derogatory statement.

Our kids don't stand much of a chance of getting the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth at those kind of doings. And the preachers let it just pass by, as if they didn't understand the long term damage that was being done.

fountain-drink · May 2, 2006

Coffee, it seems to me that there are a few who still think they have the Trinity doctrine all figured out and think they have refuted it easily with scripture. But the fact is they totally misrepresent the trinity doctrine in their assertions.

When they begin their argument by saying, “The following passages clearly say that the Trinity is false.” Then they follow up with passages that show the distinct persons of God the Father and the Son. They triumphantly claim victory.

Clearly these people have not looked into the Trinity doctrine for themselves to get a clearer understanding. It’s like they build up this fake straw man in place of the real Trinity doctrine then knocks it down easily with scripture, even though they have a false assumption of what Trinitarians believe.

An example of what Trinitarians believe:

“The Trinity: God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God.” (Wayne Grudem)

Three persons, yet one God.

It surprises me how someone still thinks that when we call Jesus God we are saying that Jesus and the Father are the same person, so they start quoting verses where Jesus’ talks to his Father as if it were to prove someone wrong.

Three separate persons, yet one God.

It still surprises me that people will blindly try to prove that the Trinity doctrine is wrong. Yet, they know full well that scripture exists to show- that all three are God.

Father (1 Person), Son (Another person), and Holy Spirit (And yet another separate person)

3 persons who are fully God = ONE GOD not three gods

What surprises me even more our Russian Molokan forefathers were Trinitarians, and some wish to believe that was never the case.

WOW!! Anak...very powerful post! I am beginning to understanding where ya all are coming from. I don't believe in the Trinity Doctrin, but your post gave me a better understanding of what you all are trying to say.

seeking_truth_1 · May 2, 2006

1 Several days later Jesus returned to Capernaum, and the news of his arrival spread quickly through the town.

2 Soon the house where he was staying was so packed with visitors that there wasn’t room for one more person, not even outside the door. And he preached the word to them.

3 Four men arrived carrying a paralyzed man on a mat.

4 They couldn’t get to Jesus through the crowd, so they dug through the clay roof above his head. Then they lowered the sick man on his mat, right down in front of Jesus.

5 Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, "My son, your sins are forgiven."

6 But some of the teachers of religious law who were sitting there said to themselves,

7 "What? This is blasphemy! Who but God can forgive sins!" (Mark 2:1-7 NKJV)

Even the false religious leaders knew that only God can forgive sin, yet how is it the Jesus did?

Is Jesus crazy for making the statement "My son, your sins are forgiven."?

Either He's crazy or who He said He is

There isn't a third option

AYOTC · May 3, 2006

I do not want this to sound bad, but there are other options to what was said. The first is that the Gospel has been corrupted over the years and this did not happen the way it is said here. The other option, which I feel very bold but not convicted to saying, is that Jesus was a false prophet. Before all of you come raining down on me, I mean to say that this is just another possibility and I am in no way connected to this belief other than that I have just said it.

EGK · May 3, 2006

Coffee, it seems to me that there are a few who still think they have the Trinity doctrine all figured out and think they have refuted it easily with scripture. But the fact is they totally misrepresent the trinity doctrine in their assertions.

When they begin their argument by saying, “The following passages clearly say that the Trinity is false.” Then they follow up with passages that show the distinct persons of God the Father and the Son. They triumphantly claim victory.

Clearly these people have not looked into the Trinity doctrine for themselves to get a clearer understanding. It’s like they build up this fake straw man in place of the real Trinity doctrine then knocks it down easily with scripture, even though they have a false assumption of what Trinitarians believe.

An example of what Trinitarians believe:

“The Trinity: God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God.” (Wayne Grudem)

Three persons, yet one God.

It surprises me how someone still thinks that when we call Jesus God we are saying that Jesus and the Father are the same person, so they start quoting verses where Jesus’ talks to his Father as if it were to prove someone wrong.

Three separate persons, yet one God.

It still surprises me that people will blindly try to prove that the Trinity doctrine is wrong. Yet, they know full well that scripture exists to show- that all three are God.

Father (1 Person), Son (Another person), and Holy Spirit (And yet another separate person)

3 persons who are fully God = ONE GOD not three gods

What surprises me even more our Russian Molokan forefathers were Trinitarians, and some wish to believe that was never the case.

WOW!! Anak...very powerful post! I am beginning to understanding where ya all are coming from. I don't believe in the Trinity Doctrin, but your post gave me a better understanding of what you all are trying to say.

A very good post I truly agree, I would just like to also quote from CS Lewis from his book Mere Christianity, " What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man." From the Gospel of John, " For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3-16.

God begat Jesus, God did not create Jesus he begat him as scripture states, through the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. God created the angels and everything else but only Christ was begotten of the Father.

Now if the trinity doctrine is not believed than what truly is believed and can someone else please explain that to me. I have asked many times for a definition of God in this forum and only those who are trinitarian in belief have given an answer, now I would like to hear what those who are not believe so that I can understand your thoughts better.

God Bless you,

EGK

steadfast · May 3, 2006

Quoting Fountain Drink

Post #8 Observing Holidays thread, 3/14/06;... “I follow Jesus Christ” and “Jesus is my Savior.”

Post #5 Totally Black and White thread, 4/24/06;... “Christ is my Savior”

Post #16 Is Jesus God thread, 5/2/06;... “I don't believe in the Trinity Doctrine”

Fountain Drink, You say that you follow Jesus Christ and that He is your Savior but you deny the doctrine of the Trinity which was taught by Jesus Christ Himself. I’m curious how you can both, accept and deny Jesus Christ at the same time? Please explain. Thank You in advance.

coffee · May 3, 2006

.

An example of what Trinitarians believe:

"The Trinity: God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God." (Wayne Grudem)

Three persons, yet one God.

Three separate persons, yet one God.

It still surprises me that people will blindly try to prove that the Trinity doctrine is wrong. Yet, they know full well that scripture exists to show- that all three are God.

What surprises me even more our Russian Molokan forefathers were Trinitarians, and some wish to believe that was never the case. - Anakainosis

WOW!! Anak...I am beginning to understanding where ya all are coming from. I don't believe in the Trinity Doctrin, but your post gave me a better understanding of what you all are trying to say. - fountain-drink

Well, Anakainosis, I am constantly amazed how people like fountain-drink openly deny one of the major Biblical foundations upon which our forefathers initially established our Christian Molokan religious belief system, yet continue to include the name "Molokan" as part of their socio-religious identity.

In my experience with the Rudometkinites, as easy as it is for such people to deny that which is written in the Scriptures with regard to the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is just as easy for them to embrace, either in part or in total, Rudometkin's heresies that are written in the Spirit and Life book.

One of the most common arguments heard from Rudometkin's New Israel "Priguni" followers is that the written Word of God in the Bible is "not reliable" because it has been "tampered with" by the Ecumenical Councils of the early Catholic Church.

However, when reviewing the various discussions and dialogs that have taken place on these forums, one cannot help but notice that today's loyal Rudometkinites continue to quote from these same allegedly "unreliable" Scriptures, much of the time out of context, whenever it suits them.

We continue to hear from the Rudometkinites the name Constantine, who was an emperor of Rome, and how he allegedly manipulated and masterminded the meetings and decisions made by the early Ecumenical Councils, with regard to the Biblical revelation about the person of Jesus Christ, particularly about His Deity.

For comparison purposes, whenever the Rudometkinites refer to Constantine and the early Ecumenical Councils, the earliest possible time period in history that they can refer to is the fourth century, 300-400 AD.

In Dublin, Ireland, is the Chester Beatty Museum. The centerpiece of this museum is the Chester Beatty Papyri. The Beatty Papyri is a collection of ancient manuscripts containing various books of the Bible.

Included in this historical collection are books of the New Testament, written in the original Greek language. These specific writings date back to 180-200 AD.

In other words, these manuscripts predate, by 150 years, the emperor Constantine and the early Ecumenical councils, who the Rudometkinites claim were responsible for allegedly deceiving the Christian Church into believing that the Lord Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, and for allegedly manufacturing the concept of the term, "The Trinity".

Included in the Beatty Papyri is the letter of the Apostle Paul to the Romans. It is generally accepted among Bible Scholars and Biblical historians that the Apostle Paul originally penned these words sometime during the period of 57-60 AD. In this historical manuscript are the following words, written by the Apostle Paul:

I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit—

that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.

For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.

They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9:1-5)

The significance here is the emphatic declaration by the Apostle Paul that the Lord Jesus Christ is not "a" God, but that He is God over all.

Jesus Christ is God? Manipulation by Constantine and the Ecumenical Councils? On a document that predates their activities by 150 years?

What is so "unreliable" about a Biblical manuscript that predates Constantine and the Ecumenical Councils? How arrogant can one be?

In March of 2004, The Moore Theological College Library, in Australia, received the Bodmer Papyri, donated from the personal library of Martin Bodmer, which eventually became known as Fondation Martin Bodmer. Bodmer was a Swiss industrialist who acquired the papyri in the early 1950s. These historical manuscripts are dated 175-225 AD.

In other words, Constantine and the men who participated in the decisions of the early Ecumenical Councils were not even born when these papyri were written, and those men would not even begin to take their place in history for at least another century afterwards.

Included in these manuscripts are portions of the Biblical text, written in the original Greek language, of the Gospel according to John. According to the Bible, John was the Disciple and Apostle of the historical Jesus of Nazareth. This man, John, was a personal witness of the life and death, resurrection and ascension, of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is generally accepted among Bible scholars and Biblical historians that John originally penned these words in the period around 85 AD. Following are portions of what is written in the Bodmer papyri:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He was in the beginning with God.

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")

And from his fullness we have all received, grace from grace.

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (John 1:14-18)

The Word is God? All things were made through the Word? In the beginning, God created everything that has ever been created? Nothing that was ever created was created without the Word?

The Word became human flesh? The Word is the only begotten Son from the Father? The Word is the Lord Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ is God?

Manipulation of Constantine and the Ecumenical Councils of the fourth century?

Who is deceiving whom?

Included in the Beatty papyri is the letter from the Apostle Paul to the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ in Corinth. It is generally accepted among Bible scholars and Biblical historians that the Apostle Paul originally penned this letter in the period 51-55 AD.

Anyone who desires to go to Ireland and confirm for themselves will find the following words written in this historical manuscript, which predates the emperor Constantine and the early Ecumenical Council by 150 years:

yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist,

and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Corinthians

All things are from God, the Father? All things are through the Lord, Jesus Christ? We exist for God, the Father? We exist through the Lord, Jesus Christ?

Further manipulations of Constantine and the Ecumenical Councils?

What is the next excuse going to be?

.

anakainosis · May 3, 2006

Coffee your post also reminded me of another Manuscript that was found that dates back to 100 BCE. It was a complete copy of the book of Isaiah.

I find it comforting to know that this copy of Isaiah predates any excuse I’ve heard.

What do you think of this verse? It sounds like a familiar one used in the New Testament.

"A voice cries: “In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God." - Isaiah 40:3

Disciple · May 3, 2006

An interesting point to note. In the song "Итакь есть какое утешение во Христе" which is based on Philippians 2. The entire song more or less is word for word based on the scriptures, except when it comes to this line.

Он, будучи образом Божиим, не почитал хищением быть равным Богу;

Translated is:

He, being in the image of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.

Here's the kicker, whoever put together the song changed that line to this:

Он, будучи образом Божиим, не почитал себр быть равным ему;

Translated is:

He, being in the image of God, did not consider himself to be equal with him.

Totally changes the meaning of the line, against what scripture writes. It fits just as easily as the other words, so it is totally possible.

Just something else to throw into the Kasha.

sadichka · May 3, 2006

Fountain Drink, You say that you follow Jesus Christ and that He is your Savior but you deny the doctrine of the Trinity which was taught by Jesus Christ Himself. I’m curious how you can both, accept and deny Jesus Christ at the same time? Please explain. Thank You in advance.

Good morning. I would like to make a comment on this...I am speaking for myself and not for FD.

Several years ago, 1998 to be exact, I was faced with the same questions: Trinity vs One God. To tell you the truth, it confused me. Both sides are debatable and I can create an argument for each side (with equal ease, I might add) by quoting scripture as my proof. Now, I have thought long and hard about this issue and I, personally, have come to the conclusion that the Lord will enlighten me when I see Him. If He chooses to enlighten me before that, Cool! I have an eternity to question and learn the What and Why of the doctrine of the Bible (although, that does not mean that I am going to be lazy and not read it anymore...that would be self destructive). I gave up trying to prove one or the other and have concluded that I am as ignorant as sheep are, at times. Bah! They are led to and fro and follow along trusting the sheepherder, completely. They don't say to him..."Hey you! Show me your sheepherder credentials or else we will not follow you! Bah!" Nope. They follow the sheepherder because they know His voice and He knows them. He doesn't have to prove that He is the Shepherd, they just simply know Him.

I have learned that the most important part of this life, my life, is to express who the Lord is to me. He is my Savior, my Strength, my Truth, my Salvation and most importantly, the Lord is my Shepherd.

So, just because I am not completely certain which to believe, or choose one over the other, does not mean that I (or anyone else) is denying Christ. That is a very serious charge to make. Bah! Bah!

Sada

fountain-drink · May 3, 2006

Quoting Fountain Drink

Post #8 Observing Holidays thread, 3/14/06;... “I follow Jesus Christ” and “Jesus is my Savior.”

Post #5 Totally Black and White thread, 4/24/06;... “Christ is my Savior”

Post #16 Is Jesus God thread, 5/2/06;... “I don't believe in the Trinity Doctrine”

Fountain Drink, You say that you follow Jesus Christ and that He is your Savior but you deny the doctrine of the Trinity which was taught by Jesus Christ Himself. I’m curious how you can both, accept and deny Jesus Christ at the same time? Please explain. Thank You in advance.

All I can say is Shame on YOU ALL! I had said Anak made a very powerful point and I have accepted what you all are talking about when you reference the Trinity, but BAM!!!! I was slammed for making that comment. Where is YOUR Christianity?

anonymous · May 3, 2006

Good morning. I would like to make a comment on this...I am speaking for myself and not for FD.

Several years ago, 1998 to be exact, I was faced with the same questions: Trinity vs One God. To tell you the truth, it confused me. Both sides are debatable and I can create an argument for each side (with equal ease, I might add) by quoting scripture as my proof. Now, I have thought long and hard about this issue and I, personally, have come to the conclusion that the Lord will enlighten me when I see Him. If He chooses to enlighten me before that, Cool! I have an eternity to question and learn the What and Why of the doctrine of the Bible (although, that does not mean that I am going to be lazy and not read it anymore...that would be self destructive). I gave up trying to prove one or the other and have concluded that I am as ignorant as sheep are, at times. Bah! They are led to and fro and follow along trusting the sheepherder, completely. They don't say to him..."Hey you! Show me your sheepherder credentials or else we will not follow you! Bah!" Nope. They follow the sheepherder because they know His voice and He knows them. He doesn't have to prove that He is the Shepherd, they just simply know Him.

I have learned that the most important part of this life, my life, is to express who the Lord is to me. He is my Savior, my Strength, my Truth, my Salvation and most importantly, the Lord is my Shepherd.

So, just because I am not completely certain which to believe, or choose one over the other, does not mean that I (or anyone else) is denying Christ. That is a very serious charge to make. Bah! Bah!

Sada

The following is not meant to offend Sada.

While Sada may have learned that the most important part of this life, her life, is to express who the Lord is to her, the truth of the matter is, THE LORD IS WHO HE IS, regardless of who HE is to her.

In other words, whether or not Sada has accepted HIM as her SAVIOR, HE IS THE SAVIOR; whether or not she has accepted HIM as her TRUTH, HE IS THE TRUTH; whether or not she has accepted HIM as her SALVATION, HE IS THE SALVATION; and whether or not she has accepted HIM as her SHEPHERD, HE IS THE SHEPHERD.

Praise be to HIM that Sada has accepted HIM, personally, however, her acceptance or denial of HIM, should she have chosen to do so, does not validate or discredit the truth of WHO HE IS.

Although understood that HE was their GOD, HIS apostles and disciples preach(ed) THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE [TRIUNE] GOD, and baptized [all nations] in HIS NAME.......in THE NAME of THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Again, whether Sada, personally, chooses to accept or deny, understands or does not understand this, does not validate or discredit the truth of the matter.

Bottom line.....be careful that “peacemaking” efforts do not “compromise” THE TRUTH.

steadfast · May 3, 2006

Fountain Drink, You say that you follow Jesus Christ and that He is your Savior but you deny the doctrine of the Trinity which was taught by Jesus Christ Himself. I’m curious how you can both, accept and deny Jesus Christ at the same time? Please explain. Thank You in advance.

Good morning. I would like to make a comment on this...I am speaking for myself and not for FD.

Several years ago, 1998 to be exact, I was faced with the same questions: Trinity vs One God. To tell you the truth, it confused me. Both sides are debatable and I can create an argument for each side (with equal ease, I might add) by quoting scripture as my proof. Now, I have thought long and hard about this issue and I, personally, have come to the conclusion that the Lord will enlighten me when I see Him. If He chooses to enlighten me before that, Cool! I have an eternity to question and learn the What and Why of the doctrine of the Bible (although, that does not mean that I am going to be lazy and not read it anymore...that would be self destructive). I gave up trying to prove one or the other and have concluded that I am as ignorant as sheep are, at times. Bah! They are led to and fro and follow along trusting the sheepherder, completely. They don't say to him..."Hey you! Show me your sheepherder credentials or else we will not follow you! Bah!" Nope. They follow the sheepherder because they know His voice and He knows them. He doesn't have to prove that He is the Shepherd, they just simply know Him.

I have learned that the most important part of this life, my life, is to express who the Lord is to me. He is my Savior, my Strength, my Truth, my Salvation and most importantly, the Lord is my Shepherd.

So, just because I am not completely certain which to believe, or choose one over the other, does not mean that I (or anyone else) is denying Christ. That is a very serious charge to make. Bah! Bah!

Sada

“I personally, have come to the conclusion that the Lord will enlighten me when I see Him”…. Yes He will, you will be held accountable for your actions. How do you know that it won’t be too late at that point? Where is the scripture supporting your “It’s never too late to repent belief?”

“I have an eternity to question and learn the What and Why of the doctrine of the Bible.”... That's very interesting but without supporting scripture for your belief, how can you be sure? Did you give it the Bible Test?

“So, just because I am not completely certain which to believe, or choose one over the other, does not mean that I (or anyone else) is denying Christ”…. Fountain Drink stated NO UNCERTAINTY , with his statement. FD said, “I don't believe in the Trinity Doctrine”

We would like to know with which scriptures you reconcile your beliefs?

sadichka · May 3, 2006

The following is not meant to offend Sada.

No offense taken.

sadichka · May 3, 2006

We would like to know with which scriptures you reconcile your beliefs?

Hmmm...I am sure that ya'll will survive without my reconcilliations. If you are curious about my thoughts...come on over, I'll put on the chinik and make some Kasha Kishmish.

I just had a thought. (Dangerous, I know!) When I get up in the morning, the sun is shining. I take it for granted that the sun will rise tomorrow. I would guess that alot of people are that way. Now, I don't know the property of Physics involved in 'knowing' that the sun will rise, but I know it will. At least until the 'Son' returns for His sheep....Bah!

:cool:

Sada

steadfast · May 4, 2006

We would like to know with which scriptures you reconcile your beliefs?

Hmmm...I am sure that ya'll will survive without my reconcilliations. If you are curious about my thoughts...come on over, I'll put on the chinik and make some Kasha Kishmish.

I just had a thought. (Dangerous, I know!) When I get up in the morning, the sun is shining. I take it for granted that the sun will rise tomorrow. I would guess that alot of people are that way. Now, I don't know the property of Physics involved in 'knowing' that the sun will rise, but I know it will. At least until the 'Son' returns for His sheep....Bah!

Sada

Will that be after the 6th or 7th trump, how many times will He come for His sheep?

fourvetta · May 4, 2006

fourvetta, what did Jesus mean by the statement "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

That statement IS NOT out of context from the passage

"I was" sent "I am", who has sent "Who is to come".

sadichka · May 4, 2006

Will that be after the 6th or 7th trump, how many times will He come for His sheep?

What on earth are you talking about?! I think that you are speaking in some type of riddle.

Is this Fourvetta? :huh: ( I am just kiddin' FV!)

Is this Donald Trump? :75:

Have I been fired? :93:

Sada

coffee · May 5, 2006

.

The question is raised....

What about the Scripture in the Bible that states:

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (John 1:18)

Is this not a contradiction to the passage in the Old Testament, where it is written that Jacob saw God "face to face"?

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered." (Genesis 32:30)

In the Scriptural account of Jacob wrestling with God, the term that is used in the Hebrew text for "God", is the word "elohim", which refers to the "personhood" of God, or God as a person.

However, when the Prophet Hosea later retells this same event, he refers to the "man" who wrestled with Jacob as "the angel".

He (Jacob) strove with the angel and prevailed; he wept and sought his favor. He met him (God) at Bethel, and there God spoke with us (Hosea 12:4).

In one other account written in the Bible, when certain individuals realized that they had been in the presence of an angel of the Lord, they were concerned that they would die because of it:

The angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, for we have seen God." (Judges 13:21-22)

It appears that this could have been common terminology at that time, and in those days, that if and/or when a person saw "the angel of the Lord", they referred to the experience as having seen "the face of God".

However, in the original Greek text of the aforementioned Gospel According to John, the word for God is "theon", which is a term that is used specifically in reference to the nature of God, rather than in reference to God as a person.

In context, this particular Scripture refers to the truth that no human being has ever seen the essence of Deity. In other words, the physical eyes of human beings are not capable of detecting God in His invisible state. This is the context of the Biblical passage from John 1:18, when the Apostle John states that "No one has ever seen God".

In this Scripture, the Apostle John is not referring to the Biblical text in Genesis 32:30, so as to contradict Jacob's claim that Jacob saw God "face to face".

Jacob's reference is to "elohim", speaking about God as a person, and as something physical in nature. In contrast, John's reference is to "theon", which is speaking about the nature or essence of God, as an invisible being.

In context, the Scripture in John 1:18 begins with the statement that mankind is not able to see God in his invisible nature, but the Lord Jesus Christ, as God incarnate in human flesh, as the confidant of God the Father, and as the only intermediary who is able to convey, in the most intimate sense of the word, the very knowledge of God to mankind, He has made God known.

The Greek term that is translated as "is"....

is in the bosom of the Father (NKJV)

is at the Father's side (ESV)

is near to the Father's heart (NLT)

who exists at the very heart of the Father (the Message Bible)

....is more accurately translated into English as "being", and in context, implies a constant, continual and continuing relationship, including preincarnate existence.

In other words, no one has ever seen God in His invisible existence, but the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate God Who has, without beginning and without end, existed in continual fellowship with God the Father, He has explained and interpreted God to mankind.

Another way of saying this is that the very nature and being of God, which cannot be observed by ordinary human senses, has been thoroughly presented to mankind by the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Incarnate God.

This is the true context of the passage in the Bible, from John 1:18.

.

fourvetta · May 5, 2006

It appears that this could have been common terminology at that time, and in those days, that if and/or when a person saw "the angel of the Lord", they referred to the experience as having seen "the face of God".

So, you would say then that when the people saw Stephen they saw the face of an angel or the face of God as you put it?

He also seen God and lived. Actually because He seen and revealed it, he was killed.

15.All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.

54.When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55.But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

56."Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

coffee · May 5, 2006

.

So, you would say then that when the people saw Stephen they saw the face of an angel or the face of God as you put it? - fourvetta

From the Bible:

And gazing at him, all who sat in the council saw that his (Stephen's) face was like the face of an angel. (Acts 6:15)

According to the Biblical text, those who sat in the council were looking at an actual living, physical person, the man named Stephen. In contrast to the account of Manoah and his wife, in Judges 13:21-22, the text is clear that as they gazed at Stephen, these men were looking at a man, not at an angel of the Lord.

The term "like" the face of an angel is describing the physical appearance of what Stephen's face looked like to them. They could have just as easily stated that Stephen's face was "like" the face of a man at peace, or "like" the face of a calm and contented man, etc.

Regarding:

But he (Stephen), full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." (Acts 7:55-56)

Here, the Scriptural text explains that as opposed to seeing God the Father personally, Stephen saw "the glory of God", which was the pure, bright shining brilliance of God, like what the disciples experienced when they saw Jesus transfigured (as in Matthew 17:1-8), or what Moses and the Israelites experienced in the desert, when they saw the "glory of the Lord" (as in Exodus 16:6-10).

As it has already been explained, the Lord Jesus Christ revealed Himself as God in the flesh to His disciples, when he told them:

If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on you do know Him, and have seen Him. (John 14:7)

....Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know Me, Philip? Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'show us the Father'? (John 14:9)

This is in fulfillment of what Jesus had told His disciples earlier:

....no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. (Matthew 11:27)

Regarding:

He also seen God and lived. Actually because He seen and revealed it, he was killed. - fourvetta

According to what is written in the Bible about the events leading up to the death of Stephen, the text does not state that Stephen was stoned specifically for the reason "because he seen God and revealed it", nor does it state that Stephen "also seen God and lived".

According to the Scriptural text, Stephen was stoned because he had been so bold as to state to the council leaders, without reservation or hesitation, that they had been disobedient to God, and that in resistance to the Holy Spirit, they had murdered Jesus Christ, the Righteous One, who was the promised Messiah.

Also, as it is written in the Biblical text, what Stephen saw when he gazed into heaven was the glory of God, representing the presence of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father.

According to the Scriptures, because Jesus is God in the flesh, and because He revealed Himself to his disciples, it can truly be said that they have seen God and lived to tell about it.

.

fourvetta · May 6, 2006

According to the Scriptures, because Jesus is God in the flesh, and because He revealed Himself to his disciples, it can truly be said that they have seen God and lived to tell about it.

Jesus is the Word of God in the flesh. The "Word of" is better said as the Word which proceeds from the Father.

The Word became flesh was was made manifest in Christ.

The Word of God also became manifest in the Apostles.

Christ said,

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

As Christ said, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father," indicates oneness with the Father. All those who accept the Word of God, become one with the Father and with Christ. Also receiving the same Glory of God as the scripture above states.

To those to whom God gave His Word, He gave them the right to be His sons.

Although Israel seen the Glory of God shining in the face of Moses, they did not believe that God spoke to him.

And although the Pharasees and scribes seen Christ face to face, they did not see or hear the God the Father who sent Christ.

God is Spirit and those who worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Christ said, "If you continue in My Word, then you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free."

coffee · May 7, 2006

.

In an early second century document known as II Clement, dated 140-160 AD, is a discourse about repentance, judgment and self-control. The author begins his sermon with the words:

Brothers, we ought to think of Jesus as we do God, as about the judge of the living and the dead; and we must not think little of our salvation.

Further on in his homily, the author also states:

If Christ the Lord who saved us was spirit at first but became flesh [John 1:14] and so called us, so we shall receive the reward in the flesh. Let us then love one another [John 13:34] so that we may all come to the kingdom of God. (II Clement 9:5-6)

Especially noteworthy about this document is that it was circulated among the early followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the early Christian Church, and predates the emperor Constantine and the early Ecumenical Councils by almost two centuries.

Just after the close of the first Ecumenical Council in Nicea, the bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, in a letter to his congregation, stated that the reason he signed the Nicene creed was because it was in agreement "with what we ourselves have professed in the faith which we have previously preached".

The Word of God is not a book, but the Word of God became flesh and dwelt among us as the scripture says. The Word of God shall be made manifest in the flesh. (fourvetta, Post # 8)

The words highlighted above are not written in the Bible, anywhere. It is another example of how fourvetta and the Rudometkinites twist Scripture out of context, and corrupt the written Word of God.

The context in which fourvetta has presented his theory rejects and refuses to acknowledge the "uniqueness" of the Word, particularly that the Word is defined in the Bible as being truly God, the creator God, the pure, Divine living spirit known as Almighty God, Deity in every sense of meaning.

According to the Scriptures, the Word was not a created being, created by God to exist in heaven together with God the Father. According to what is written in the Bible, the Word IS the creator God.

From the Bible:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3)

To say that the Word was simply "made manifest" in Christ is to minimize the truth that the ONLY creator God, who is identified in the Bible as Almighty God, became literal flesh in the physical, human body of the historical person of Jesus Christ.

From the Bible:

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

According to what is written in the Scriptures, Jesus Christ was not the Son of God prior to His incarnation, but He was begotten as the Son of God at the very moment He was begotten to be Jesus Christ on earth. Prior to that miraculous event, Jesus Christ was the Word of God, and the Scriptures testify that in His preincarnate existence, He was truly God, identified as the Lord.

Just as the Holy Spirit has always been God, for as long as God has been God, the Word has also coexisted eternally with God. The Word and the Holy Spirit are each coequal with God the Father, in that each is truly the same ONE God, in every sense of the word.

God did not create the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has always been God for as long as God has been God, eternally.

Likewise, God did not create His Word. The Word has always been God, and has always been with God, for as long as God has been God. The Word and the Holy Spirit have each coexisted with God the Father, eternally.

The incarnation of God in human flesh took place when the virgin Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). At that unique moment in time, the Word became a human being body, when He was begotten by the power of Almighty God.

This is the truth of the Scriptures that was taught by the Apostles to the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ in the early Christian Church, a fact which can be verified by historical documents like the treatise of II Clement:

"....Christ the Lord who saved us was spirit at first but became flesh...."

The Word of God who became human flesh is the only Son of God to have ever been begotten by God the Father. All other humans have a human biological father. Only the Lord Jesus Christ has God as His biological Father.

Regarding:

The "Word of" is better said as the Word which proceeds from the Father.

The Word became flesh was was made manifest in Christ. - fourvetta

Again, this is more perversion of Scripture. What fourvetta is attempting to say is that the "manner" in which the Word became flesh is simply that the Word "was made manifest" in Christ.

To say this is to decry the truth of the creator God becoming human flesh. What is written in the Bible?

From the Bible:

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (which is to say that God dwelt among us in human form, as Immanuel, God with us).... (John 1:14)

In that context, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the incarnate Word, proceeded forth from the Father, because the physical Jesus is the human offspring of God, and there is no other way to proclaim this truth, than to say that He indeed came (proceeded) from God the Father.

However, the preincarnate Word did not "proceed" from the Father. According to what is written in the Bible, the Word created everything that exists.

From the Bible:

For by Him all things were created.... (Colossians 1:16)

There is a huge difference between saying that the Word was "made manifest" in Christ, versus quoting what is written in the Bible, that the Word became flesh. The Scriptures explain that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This was done to reveal God the Father to mankind.

As God in human flesh, the only tangible reality of God that humanity will ever know is the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the context of what Jesus meant when He told his disciples that from now on they know the Father, and "have seen Him". Likewise, when He told His disciples that "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

To understand this Biblical truth is to testify of God's profound love for mankind, to the extent that He was willing to become incarnate in the physical person of the Lord Jesus Christ, in order to bear the sins of the world.

God willingly gave Himself, when His Word became human flesh as the only begotten Son of God, to die as the only acceptable sacrifice that could ever possibly take away the sins of the entire world, once and for all.

God's love extends to all humanity, and He was willing to take on human flesh in order to suffer and die, so that those who believe in Him and accept His sacrifice, will have eternal life together with Him.

This is the context of what it means when Christ told His followers:

"For God so loved the world...." (John 3:16)

Regarding:

The Word of God also became manifest in the Apostles. - fourvetta

Again, this is not Scriptural. It is another attempt to twist the Scriptures out of context. In the Bible, it is written about the Apostle John:

....John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ.... (Revelation 1:1-2)

I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. (Revelation 1:9)

In context, the Apostle John is not speaking about fourvetta's theory, that the word of God allegedly "became manifest" in the physical bodies of the Apostles.

The term "on account of the word of God", which is used in conjunction with the "testimony of Jesus", is referring to the fact that the Apostle John was arrested for being a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, and for publicly sharing with others that which is written in the Scriptures about salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

This term, "the Scriptures", has long been used historically by the followers of Yahweh God in reverence to the written Word of God, which is the collection of writings known as the Bible.

From the Bible:

For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

And we have something more sure, the prophetic word [of the Scriptures], to which you will do well to pay attention....

....knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.

For no prophecy [from the Scriptures] was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:16-21)

From the Bible:

....our beloved brother Paul also wrote [as in the "written" Word of God, the Scriptures] to you according to the wisdom given him,

as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16)

From the Bible:

All Scripture [the written Word of God] is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

From the Bible:

And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God [as in to teach what is written in the Scriptures] to serve tables.

Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty.

But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word." (Acts 6:2-4)

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fourvetta · May 7, 2006

The teaching that Christ was God the Father Himself in the flesh began with the Nicene Council. It was not in the original teachings of the scriptures, but began with the Arian controversy.

According to the Nicene Council, Christ is longer mediator between God and man, but God Himself.

Read the following carefully.

Jesus, then, for all time was declared to have been God for all eternity. Forever after there would always be a chasm separating humanity from Jesus Christ, who was deified beyond recognition as a result of the council's decision. The key Greek word used in the creed was homoousios, meaning that Jesus was "of one substance with" the Father; he was not created by God but was "very God of very God." The subtle distinction that Arius had made between the Son (as the Archetypal firstborn of God) and the Word- Logos who was "God from God" was either cleverly ignored or suppressed outright. The bishops who sided with Arius knew that they had blasphemed by placing the man Jesus, whom they knew to have been created by God, on the same level with the eternal God— the unmanifest and absolute Deity. As Origen gave the Son of God free will to choose to cling to the Wisdom-Logos and thus become the Logos, so the council condemned the teaching that the Son was susceptible to variation and change. Jesus Christ, therefore, according to the Nicene Fathers, did not choose to cling to the Logos and thus become one with him— he was himself the Logos for all eternity. The council concluded that Jesus, in effect, had no free will to choose or not to choose. The implication of the Nicene doctrine is that Jesus as God the Logos, God Himself, simply assumed a human nature and body (or the semblance of humanity) for the purpose of saving mankind. He himself did not need to follow a path to attainment, nor did he have to strive for union with God. Jesus then was not really man— he was the eternal God in the appearance of man. We recall that no Christian school or theology, either Christian-Gnostic or proto-orthodox, had ever taught such a doctrine regarding Jesus prior to the Nicene Council. The above formula also makes it unnecessary for each individual to follow Jesus. There is no purpose in seeking to experience the "initiations" that Jesus experienced. The esoteric gnostic doctrines of Jesus which taught man how to attain to Jesus' level of spiritual knowledge and power are now become superfluous. Jesus is no longer the mediator between God and man— bridging the gap between God and man and bringing man into a closer union with the Father; he is now God Himself— a full-fledged remote Deity. The Christian is therefore bereft of a mediator— an advocate before the Father— in the person of Jesus. The hierarchy of the church— the very bishops who supported the creed— have now insinuated themselves subtly between God and the aspiring Christian, who was taught not to think for himself but to simply acquiesce in favor of the greater knowledge of the bishops. Thus an entirely new theology would be developed out of the Nicene Creed— a theology far removed from the original doctrines of Jesus and his apostles. The new theology evolved from the Nicene formula promoted a passivity on the part of the average Christian. According to the creed, Jesus is God and he has already accomplished the salvation of every believer. The believer need only accept the creed, partake of the sacraments, obey the bishops and the decisions of the councils in order to be saved. He need not go through his own crucifixion and resurrection as Paul the Apostle taught and demonstrated. He need not become one with the Father as the Christian-Gnostic taught. The Nicene Creed prepared the way for the ultimate abdication by the faithful of their own nature as sons of God— that sonship that Arius and his followers were attempting to uphold in vain. The Nicene Creed prepared the soil into which was planted the new doctrine of original sin by Augustine in the following century, thus contributing to the final debasement of humanity.

The man Jesus, the teacher and Guru, was not only proclaimed as identical with the Supreme Deity, but it was now taught that Jesus had never been created since he was the Absolute Deity Himself! Thus it was that the Council of Ephesus in 431 A. D. proclaimed Mary, the mother of Jesus, "Theotokos," i. e., Mother of God, much to the chagrin of one Nestorius, a "heretic" with decidedly Arian sympathies, who proclaimed Mary only as Mother of Christ. If Jesus was God, Mary of course had to be God's mother. This new dogma was not taught with the understanding that Mary nurtured the indwelling "God" or Divinity within Jesus, and thus became the mother of the "God" in Jesus, but was meant to remove Mary as an exemplar of spiritual and material motherhood and to reconstruct her as a remote goddess, one who actually gave birth to the Supreme Deity. The cult of Mary within orthodox Christianity was stolen from the cults and rites of the innumerable feminine deities of the mystery religions such as Isis, Vesta, Venus, Demeter, Diana/ Artemis and others, some of whom gave birth to saviour gods, while others were virgin deities. The ancient doctrine of primordial matter as the mother-womb of the universe (the Son) was debased into a literal dogma of a woman giving birth to the Creator of the universe! Such was the legacy of the Nicene Council.

The concept of Homoousia (the Son as identical to the Father), let loose a fury among mankind that has rarely been paralleled. Millions suffered violence or death in the pursuant wars and persecutions. Hundreds of bishops were exiled or murdered at the command of other bishops who when the tide turned, visited the same treatment upon their rivals. The great Athanasius was driven from his see five times, and on, at least, two occasions barely escaped with his life. His Arian enemies, seated in his place of power, were not so fortunate: two of them were lynched, and the other was barely saved from the bloodthirsty mobs by the police. Arians and Athanasians alike sought to use the secular arm to terrify and assassinate their opponents, and to seize their congregations, churches, and revenues by force.

False Christianity at its best. All this because men like darkness better than light.

Christ came to call us out of the darkness into the light. To love one another as we love ourselves.

The scriptures tell us that all that do such things shall not enter the kingdom of God.

Take heed that the light that is in your eyes is not darkness.

The following states that the scriptures that we now have are essentially the books chosen during the reign of Constantine.

The fourth century Christianity of Eusebius was not the first century Christianity of apostolic times. Much of Eusebius' history appears as whitewash and partly fabricated, which is understandable considering that the book was written as a front for Constantine and from the viewpoint that Christianity itself had been finally vindicated by Constantine and not by Jesus. In effect, the Second Coming of Christ had occurred through Constantine— the world had become Christian— and heaven had descended to earth— that is, the orthodox earth. Heaven was going to be no fun for anyone else.

Constantine continued his revolutionizing of Christianity by ordering new copies of the scriptures to be printed in A. D. 331. It is especially significant that no complete copies of the Bible exist prior to the fourth century. The books comprising our present-day Bible are essentially the books chosen during the reign of Constantine. Since we have no complete record of the proceedings of the Council of Nicea, we may assume that numerous scriptures dealing with the life and teaching of Jesus, some of which we have examined in this book, were consigned to the flames to support the increasingly rigid orthodoxy of Constantine. From the time of Constantine, all scriptures not approved by the church/ emperor were either destroyed or secretly hidden.

coffee · May 8, 2006

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Going back to what Anakainosis posted in # 14:

An example of what Trinitarians believe:

“The Trinity: God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God.” (Wayne Grudem)

Three persons, yet one God.

It surprises me how someone still thinks that when we call Jesus God we are saying that Jesus and the Father are the same person, so they start quoting verses where Jesus’ talks to his Father as if it were to prove someone wrong.

Three separate persons, yet one God.

Father (1 Person), Son (Another person), and Holy Spirit (And yet another separate person)

3 persons who are fully God = ONE GOD not three gods

What surprises me even more our Russian Molokan forefathers were Trinitarians, and some wish to believe that was never the case.

Just like Anakainosis stated, the Rudometkinites continue to misquote and misrepresent what Bible based Christians believe, as can be seen by what fourvetta has posted in his most recent response:

The teaching that Christ was God the Father Himself in the flesh began with the Nicene Council. - fourvetta, Post # 38

One more time, the Scriptures testify that God the Father is God.

The Scriptures also testify that the Word of God is God, the same God as God the Father, only existing as a second person Who is Deity.

The Scriptures further testify that the Holy Spirit is God, the same God as God the Father, the same God as the Word of God, only as a third person Who is Deity.

The Scriptures testify that the Word of God became human flesh when He was begotten as the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.

At issue with fourvetta and the Rudometkinites is the fact that they are supporters and defenders of Arius, and his teachings about Jesus, specifically their agreement with the Arian heresy, that Jesus was a created being in heaven before he was "manifest" in the flesh on earth.

From fourvetta's source, defending Arius:

The subtle distinction that Arius had made between the Son (as the Archetypal firstborn of God) and the Word - Logos who was "God from God" was either cleverly ignored or suppressed outright.

The bishops who sided with Arius knew that....the man Jesus, whom they knew to have been created by God....

The question has been asked of fourvetta and the Rudometkinites, yet continues to go unanswered. Where in Scripture is it written that the Word was "created" in heaven? For that matter, if "the bishops who sided with Arius", together with fourvetta and the Rudometkinites "knew" the man Jesus "to have been created by God", the question that remains unanswered is how they "know" this alleged act of creation took place?

If we are to believe what fourvetta and the Rudometkinites say, the Scriptures that we now have are essentially the books chosen during the reign of Constantine, which, according to the Rudometkinites, make these writings allegedly "unreliable" as truth from God.

Again, from fourvetta's source, in defense of Arianism:

Since we have no complete record of the proceedings of the Council of Nicea, we may assume that numerous scriptures dealing with the life and teaching of Jesus, some of which we have examined in this book, were consigned to the flames to support the increasingly rigid orthodoxy of Constantine.

From the time of Constantine, [we may assume that] all scriptures not approved by the church/ emperor were either destroyed or secretly hidden.

If the Bible that we have today has allegedly been "defiled" by Constantine and the Ecumenical Councils, which, according to the Rudometkinites, has in turn made it "unreliable" as truth from God, why do the Rudometkinites continue to read and teach from the Scriptures?

Why does fourvetta continue to quote from this allegedly "unreliable" book, which Bible based Christians revere as the spoken Word of God, written down for all humanity, so that mankind is able to learn about God, and about His plan of salvation through the unique, "one-of-a-kind God-Expression", the person of the Lord Jesus Christ?

What is so "unreliable" about the Papyri and the other historical documents that predate Constantine and the Ecumenical councils, which testify that the early Christian Church believed the exact same truth which Bible based Christians all over the world today believe, specifically that the Lord Jesus Christ is God in human flesh, Who came from heaven to save mankind from our sins.

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fourvetta · May 8, 2006

The question has been asked of fourvetta and the Rudometkinites, yet continues to go unanswered. Where in Scripture is it written that the Word was "created" in heaven?

Must we go over this again?

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The visible light as we know it was created on the fourth day. The first day God said, "Let there be Light." The Son of God begotten of Him.

Darkness does not comprehend it.

37.And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

38.nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39.You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

40.yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Because someone has the knowledge of the scripture does not mean that he has eternal life, nor does God's Word abide in Him. Actually he is still deprived of life.

Christ came to save us from the dead letter of the scriptures. All the prophets and Christ Himself died according to it. The devil is the best misinterpreter of it.

15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.

16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

The scriptures swallowed up the teachings of satan to help the woman. The devil has come down to those who dwell in the earth and the sea. But not to those who dwell in heaven. He was cast down from heaven and there was no longer a place for him there.

Christ said specifically, "I am the Bread which descends from the Heavens. The Words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are Life."

It is the Spoken Words of God that give Life and not the written Word. It is the Spirit which gives Life and not a dead letter.

Efim tells us, "But you do not want to leave these books" and in another place, "to be led by the Spirit."

Edited May 8, 2006 by fourvetta

coffee · May 8, 2006

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Regarding:

Must we go over this again?

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The visible light as we know it was created on the fourth day. The first day God said, "Let there be Light." The Son of God begotten of Him.

Perhaps it is good to go over this, over and over and over again, in order that those who lack understanding might eventually receive "light".

The Creator did not "create" Himself. Please read very carefully what is written in the Scriptures.

From the Bible:

He [meaning the Lord Jesus Christ, in reference to "His beloved Son", in Verse 13] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1:15-16)

The context of this Scripture is to declare the supremacy of Christ "over" all creation. He cannot be "over" Himself, if He, the Creator, created Himself (as it is written, "For by Him all things were created....").

In order for forvetta's theory to be true, Christ, the Son of God begotten of Him, allegedly the "Light" that was "created" on the first day of Creation, of Whom it is written in the Scriptures, "For by Him all things were created....", would have had to create Himself.

The original Greek word used here is pronounced "pro-to-to-kos", which literally means "firstborn", not "first-created". In order for fourvetta's theory to be true, that Christ was allegedly the "first-created", the pronunciation of the original Greek word would had to have been "pro-tok-ti-sis". The context is "firstborn", not "first-created".

In the book of Hebrews, it is written that when God the Father brought the "firstborn" (pro-to-to-kos) into the world, He said, "Let all the angels worship Him" (Hebrews 1:6). The context is that Jesus is the "first" human being, indeed the only One, to have ever been born with God as His Father.

If the Lord Jesus Christ was "pro-tok-ti-sis" (first-created), He would be a "creature" (a "created" thing), and it would be against the commandment of God to "worship Him", since according to the context of the commandment written in Exodus 20:4-5, mankind is not to "worship" any "created" thing.

In the book of Revelation, when Jesus introduced himself as "I am the First and the Last" (Revelation 1:17-18), the original Greek term used is pronounced "ho pro-tos", which literally means "The Absolute First".

In context, this means that Christ is "before" all creation, which also means that He "preceded" the creation of "Light" on the first day of Creation. It also means that He is sovereign over all creation, including the very "Light" that represents the "glory" of God, which is what He created on that first day.

Because fourvetta's belief system begins with Rudometkin's heresies that are written in the Spirit and Life book, as is true with the Rudometkinites as a whole, perhaps they will never comprehend the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ that is written in the Scriptures. The hope is that among the readers, there will be some who come to know Jesus as He truly is, and begin to worship God the Father in Spirit and in Truth.

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fourvetta · May 8, 2006

In the book of Hebrews, it is written that when God the Father brought the "firstborn" (pro-to-to-kos) into the world, He said, "Let all the angels worship Him" (Hebrews 1:6). The context is that Jesus is the "first" human being, indeed the only One, to have ever been born with God as His Father.

You said;

According to what is written in the Scriptures, Jesus Christ was not the Son of God prior to His incarnation, but He was begotten as the Son of God at the very moment He was begotten to be Jesus Christ on earth.

It appears then that you agree with Arius.

Arius, a priest at the church of Baucalis, came into open conflict with his bishop, Alexander of Alexandria, concerning the divinity of Christ. Arius reasoned and taught that if Jesus was born, then there was time when He did not exist. If He became God, then there was time when He was not. Therefore, Arius reasoned that Jesus must be understood as inferior to the Father.

The effect of making Christ less than God renders impossible our human deification (to become like God). Only if Christ is both God and man can humanity be united with God. For none but God himself can open to humans the way of union. The Council therefore declared Arius' teaching a heresy, unacceptable to the Church and decreed that Christ is God. He is of the same essence "homoousios" with God the Father.

The following scripture from Hebrews 1 shows that Christ sat at the right hand of the father after He died and Resurrected.

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,

2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Again in another place as far as being enlightened that Christ sat at His Fathers right hand afterward. Christ said, "My flesh profits Me nothing. It is the Spirit which gives life."

17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,

18 the eyes of your understanding[c] being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power

20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,

23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Christ did not consider Himself to be equal with His Father, but lowered Himself taking on the form of a man and was obedient to death. We are instructed to do likewise.

In Philippians 2 Paul says this;

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Verse 6 by the way is not properly translated.

In context, this means that Christ is "before" all creation, which also means that He "preceded" the creation of "Light" on the first day of Creation. It also means that He is sovereign over all creation, including the very "Light" that represents the "glory" of God, which is what He created on that first day.

Christ preceeded the Light that was created on the fouth day. He is the image and the Glory of God that was created on the first day as you said.

As the scripture says, "You are My Son to Whom I gave birth to before the dawn."

In Revelation 22 we read of the Holy City of New Jerusalem and the Light within it.

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.

25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there).

26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

anakainosis · May 9, 2006

6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

Verse 6 by the way is not properly translated.

what's the proper translation?

coffee · May 13, 2006

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At times, I like to review and summarize, in order to keep things in proper perspective, so that the irrelevance of recent events do not divert attention away from key issues that have been previously discussed.

Just like Arius in the fourth century, fourvetta and the Rudometkinites do not believe the Scriptures in the Bible that testify of the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. Instead, Rudometkinites like fourvetta believe that Jesus was "created" in heaven, and that His essential created "character" was later "made manifest" in the flesh of Jesus Christ on earth.

When asked to provide proof for this theory, fourvetta, echoing the belief of the other Rudometkinites, explains how he believes that Christ was the "Light" that God created on the first day of creation, thereby making Jesus a created being in heaven, before he was "manifest" in the flesh.

The "Light" that was created on the first day of Creation is the bright, shining brilliance, and splendor, which simply cannot be expressed in human terms, other than to describe it as the visible "glory of the Lord".

Fourvetta and the Rudometkinites believe Christ is the image of the Glory of God, but they believe that Christ was "created" on the first day of Creation.

When we consider fourvetta's responses, we find a major discrepancy, and contradiction, between what the Rudometkinites believe, versus what is written in the Bible.

The Scriptures declare that all things which were created by God, were created by the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, according to what is written in the Bible, Jesus Christ is "The Creator" of everything that was created, including the very "Light" that was created on the first day of Creation.

In order for fourvetta's theory to be true, that Jesus Christ is the "Light" which was "created" on the first day of Creation, we must be forced then to believe that Jesus, being the Creator, created Himself. This is not possible, since the Creator already existed prior to the beginning of Creation, and this was Him, the preincarnate Jesus Christ, in spirit form as the Word of God, who created all of Creation, according to what is written in the Bible:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1-3)

For by Him all things were created [or better said, all things were created by the Lord Jesus Christ] that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1:16)

The Scriptures sufficiently testify that the Lord Jesus Christ is God incarnate in human flesh, that He is of the same essence (ho-moou-si-os) with God the Father, and that prior to His incarnation, Christ Jesus existed in heaven as the Word of God, the Creator God, the Living God.

In His preincarnate state, the Word was Spirit, Who became human flesh, the person of Jesus Christ, when He was begotten as the "firstborn" of God, the only begotten Son of God.

The question has been asked of fourvetta and the Rudometkinites, yet continues to go unanswered. Where in Scripture is it written that the Word was "created" in heaven? For that matter, if "the bishops who sided with Arius", together with fourvetta and the Rudometkinites "knew" the man Jesus "to have been created by God", the question that remains unanswered is how they "know" this alleged act of creation took place?

Because Arius failed so miserably to provide evidence for this theory at the first Ecumenical Council at Nicea, he is identified in Christian history as a heretic. Today's Rudometkinites, like fourvetta, continue to fail equally as well in their attempt to perpetuate the same Arian heresy.

When listening to anyone who is a follower of Rudometkin, in church or outside of church, it cannot be repeated enough that the belief system of the Rudometkinites is based upon the writings in the Spirit and Life book, first and foremost, above and beyond everything else. This is the foundation for today's generation of Rudometkin's New Israel "Pryguni".

In other words, Rudometkin's followers begin with the conviction that Rudometkin was a "prophet of God", and that his writings in the Spirit and Life book were given by inspiration of God specifically, and "specially", to Rudometkin and his followers.

With this as their "starting point", the Holy Scriptures are then read "through" Rudometkin's many heresies, meaning that the Rudometkinites ultimately "interpret" what is written in the Bible based on what is written in the Spirit and Life book.

The significance of this is that Jesus Christ is relegated by the Rudometkinites to the status of a "created" being. By doing so, it gives birth to a number of heresies, including the belief that Rudometkin himself is allegedly the physical incarnation of the Holy Spirit.

This has resulted in their devotion and loyalty to Rudometkin as their "Master", their "King", their "Moses", their "Leader", their "Lord", their "New Jewish Messiah", or as fourvetta has stated, their "New Judean Messiah".

From Rudometkin, in the Spirit and Life book, in context:

"....For the time has come....To give glory to God in heaven, and to me, His anointed...." (Page 559, Book 12, Article 4, Verses 1-2)

In contrast, those who are Bible based Molokan Christians read and accept what is written in the Scriptures as a "stand alone" revelation from God to man, and all other alleged "inspiration of spirit" is read and interpreted through the authority of the written Word of God, in the Bible.

From the Bible:

Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:

I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other.... (Isaiah 42:5-8)

For the Bible based Christian Molokan, it is blatant sacrilege to give this kind of glory to anyone other than the Lord. This includes the honor and praise that Rudometkin continues to receive from his followers to this very day. For the Bible based Molokan Christian, to do so is shameful blasphemy.

According to what is written in the Scriptures, Jesus Christ is the Lord Who created the heavens and the earth (Colossians 1:15-17), and it is He, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who upholds and sustains all creation by the word of his power, by the mighty power of His command (Hebrews 1:1-4).

From the Greek Interlinear Bible, in context:

This think you among you, which also (was) in Christ Jesus, Who in (the) form of God subsisting, not robbery deemed (it) the, to be equal things with God (Philippians 2:5-6)

Or, better said:

Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn’t think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human! Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn’t claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death - and the worst kind of death at that: a crucifixion.

Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth - even those long ago dead and buried - will bow in worship before this Jesus Christ, and call out in praise that he is the Master of all, to the glorious honor of God the Father. (Corresponding text from Philippians 2:5-11, The Message Bible)

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EGK · May 14, 2006

Thanks Coffee!!!

I was really getting scared their for a minute after reading FV's posts that I would have to find a saffron colored robe and start asking for money at the airport. Or maybe going to the nearest tower in Boston and yelling the JW"S are coming. I think even MGR would be ashamed of what his latter day brothers have turned our Molokan faith into. They forget that MGR was not born a Molokan but was Orthodox by birth and baptism. Their is also nothing new in his writings which other sectarian groups of his time were also practising.

All glory and honor to our Lord Jesus Christ!

EGK

fourvetta · May 14, 2006

The Scriptures declare that all things which were created by God, were created by the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, according to what is written in the Bible, Jesus Christ is "The Creator" of everything that was created, including the very "Light" that was created on the first day of Creation

So what you are saying is that Jesus Christ is the "Father" of creation?

In the same breath, denying that He is as you put it, "bright, shining brilliance, and splendor, which simply cannot be expressed in human terms, other than to describe it as the visible "glory of the Lord".

What you are basically saying is that there is another glory?

And I quote you, "I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other.... (Isaiah 42:5-8) For the Bible based Christian Molokan, it is blatant sacrilege to give this kind of glory to anyone other than the Lord."

And I agree, that we are to have the same mindset as Christ. For He did not consider Himself equal with God. But humbled Himself taking on the form of a man and was obedient even to death. And because of this God raised Him up and gave Him a name above all others.

This same Christ who was raised up and sat at the right hand of God, said of the conqueror,

"To Him who conquers, I will give him to sit on My Throne, just as I conquered and sat with My Father on His Throne. And I will write upon him the Name of My father and My New Name, which no one will know except he who receives it. I will grant him authority over the nations and he will rule them with a rod of iron I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God. He will go out no more. I will be to him a God and he will be My Son. I will confess his name to My Father and His angels. I will give to him a crown of life, even as I have received from My Father"

coffee · May 15, 2006

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So what you are saying is that Jesus Christ is the "Father" of creation? - fourvetta

For Bible based Christians, what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures is the "alive" Word of God that has been preserved in written form. When the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth, he would often begin His messages with the words, "It is written....", and He would then quote the written Word of God in the Scriptures.

From the Bible, speaking about the Lord Jesus Christ:

All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:3)

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know Him. (John 1:10)

For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1:16)

Based on what is written in the Bible, who is the Creator?

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,

because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. (Roman 1:24-25)

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9:5)

According to what is written in the Bible, who is the Creator?

"I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.

I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses," declares the Lord, "and I am God".

"I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King." (Isaiah 43:11-15)

To whom then will you compare me, that I should be like him? says the Holy One.

Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these?

Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. (Isaiah 40:25-28)

These Scriptures are all found today in documents and manuscripts that predate Constantine and the Ecumenical Councils, and provide conclusive and undeniable evidence that the Apostles of Jesus Christ taught these identical truths to the early followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, the early Christian Church.

In other words, that Jesus was Deity, is a Scriptural truth that was not only accepted, but was shared among the early Christian believers, who worshipped the Lord Jesus Christ as Divinity, as the Creator, as the Lord, the Holy One.

From the Bible:

Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,

and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:68-69)

Going back to fourvetta's question, "Is Jesus Christ the 'Father' of creation?"

From the Bible:

Then Moses spoke the words of this song until they were finished, in the ears of all the assembly of Israel.

For I will proclaim the name of the Lord; ascribe greatness to our God!

Do you thus repay the Lord, you foolish and senseless people? Is not He your father, who created you, who made you and established you? (Deuteronomy 31:30 and 32:1-6)

For to us a child is born [speaking about the Lord Jesus Christ], to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

In this instance, which is virtually the same as it was with the heresy of Arius during the first Ecumenical Council, there is no way for the Rudometkinites to "get around" the fact that according to what is written in the Scriptures, Jesus Christ, Who in His preincarnate state existed in Spirit form as the Word of God, is the Lord God, the Creator of everything.

According to what is written in the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Creator, could not create Himself, which is what fourvetta and the Rudometkinites continue to insist on wanting to believe.

Prior to the incarnation of the Word becoming human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, the only tangible and visible reality of God that mankind ever knew was the Shekinah Glory, a brilliant light which, according to a number of accounts written in the Bible, is visible to the human eye. It is referred to as the Glory of the Lord, and the followers of Yahweh historically knew that this light was not God Himself, but was an indication of the presence of God.

According to the Scriptures, this specific "glory" was "light", as opposed to a created "person", or being, and the One Who "created" this light was the preincarnate Jesus Christ. The light is reflective of the very presence of Him, God, Who in His preincarnate state was Spirit.

I have a first cousin who told my wife and me several years ago that he does not "like" what is written in the Bible by the Apostle John and the Apostle Paul, so he does not read those writings. In other words, my cousin's "version" of what he accepts as the written Word of God excludes the very Scriptures that testify about the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If we simply "ignore" the Scriptures where the Apostle John testifies that Jesus is God, the Creator, and if we "pretend" that the Scriptures where the Apostle Paul testifies that Jesus is God, the Creator, do not exist, then except for the Biblical passage in 2 Peter 1:1, one can hand craft the Scriptures to establish any number of alleged truths, simply by taking the balance of what is written out of context.

The history of the Christian Church tells us that Arius made his decision to reject Biblical truth, and he chose to adhere to his heresy instead. The same decision has been made by fourvetta and the Rudometkinites, and they will take their place in history following the heresies of Rudometkin in the Spirit and Life book.

The Bible based Molokan Christians do not need to make that same mistake. Using the example of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Bible, it is written about Him in the Scriptures that He is the Creator, that He is the Lord, and He is God:

All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:3)

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know Him. (John 1:10)

For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1:16)

Thomas answered Him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)

Regarding:

What you are basically saying is that there is another glory? - fourvetta

It is written in the Scriptures:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-18)

According to these Scriptures, it is written that when the Word became flesh, we have seen His glory, meaning the glory of the Word Who became flesh. The Scripture does not state that the Word was "the glory of God" itself, in human flesh. Rather, when God Himself became human flesh, man beheld the glory of the incarnation.

From the Bible:

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.

For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:3-6)

It is written that the unbelievers who do not accept the gospel message are not able to see the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, or better said, God in human flesh, the Lord. The Scriptures testify that Christ has the same "glory" as the Lord, as God in human flesh, in contrast to being "the glory of God" itself, in human flesh.

From the Bible:

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. (Hebrews 1:1-4)

It is written that Jesus is the radiance of the glory of God, not the glory itself. The reason for this is because Christ is God in human flesh, the exact imprint of the nature of God.

Regarding:

This same Christ who was raised up and sat at the right hand of God, said of the conqueror, - fourvetta

The Lord Jesus Christ, who was raised up and sat at the right hand of God, stated this:

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him [in context, "anyone"] and eat with him [in context, "anyone"], and he [in context, "anyone"] with Me. The one who conquers [in context, "anyone"], I will grant him [in context, "anyone"] to sit with Me on My throne, as I also conquered and sat down with My Father on His throne. He [in context, "anyone"] who has an ear, let him [in context, "anyone"] hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Revelation 3:20-22)

When Jesus refers to "the one who conquers", the context is "anyone". Christ is not speaking about the heretic Rudometkin, no matter how many times Rudometkin states this about himself in the Spirit and Life book, no matter how badly Rudometkin's deceived followers want to believe it is true.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers [in context, "anyone"], I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. (Revelation 2:7)

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers [in context, "anyone"] will not be hurt by the second death. (Revelation 2:11)

The one who conquers [in context, "anyone"] will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Revelation 3:5-6)

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little koshka · May 15, 2006

Not to get off track here -

but, MGR might have been....

Ne-Nash? HMMMMM...

:huh:

Thanks Coffee!!!

I was really getting scared their for a minute after reading FV's posts that I would have to find a saffron colored robe and start asking for money at the airport. Or maybe going to the nearest tower in Boston and yelling the JW"S are coming. I think even MGR would be ashamed of what his latter day brothers have turned our Molokan faith into. They forget that MGR was not born a Molokan but was Orthodox by birth and baptism. Their is also nothing new in his writings which other sectarian groups of his time were also practising.

All glory and honor to our Lord Jesus Christ!

EGK

fourvetta · May 15, 2006

According to these Scriptures, it is written that when the Word became flesh, we have seen His glory, meaning the glory of the Word Who became flesh. The Scripture does not state that the Word was "the glory of God" itself, in human flesh. Rather, when God Himself became human flesh, man beheld the glory of the incarnation.

Christ said, "My flesh profits Me nothing. It is the Words that I speak to you that give spirit and life."

The glory of God is His Word.

Christ said,

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

One who accepts God's Word is one with God, just as Christ is one with God. He also receives the Glory of God. The word becomes flesh and is manifested in man and recieves the gift of the resurrection of the dead.

Or the transformation of the living with His second coming of His new name.

fourvetta · May 15, 2006

Not to get off track here -

but, MGR might have been....

Ne-Nash? HMMMMM...

It is not according to the flesh or lineage or works of the law, but after the order of Melchizedek, a high priest. Not having mother of father nor a beginning or end.

Edited May 15, 2006 by fourvetta

anonymous · May 16, 2006

fourvetta

Today, 08:30 AM

Christ said, "My flesh profits Me nothing. It is the Words that I speak to you that give spirit and life."

Another example of the blatant ignorance of and irreverence for the written and living WORD OF GOD by the SCRIPTURALLY illiterate new Israel jumpers/leapers.

JESUS did not say what fourvetta “quotes” JESUS as saying. If fourvetta knew THE HOLY SCRIPTURES he would have known this.

What JESUS did say is found in the book of John, chapter 6, verse 63. The text reads as follows:

“It is THE SPIRIT WHO gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.”

JESUS is not speaking about HIS flesh here. If HE were, HE would be contradicting HIMSELF.

One of the reasons we know this is when we read the preceding text, for “context,” specifically, chapter 6, verses 22-59, we find JESUS referring to HIMSELF as THE BREAD OF LIFE which comes down from Heaven, “that one may eat of it and not die.” (John 6:50)

In the next verse (51), HE reiterates, “I am the living bread which came down from Heaven,” and details this living bread, saying, “If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is MY flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

“The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, ‘How can this MAN give us HIS flesh to eat?’

Then JESUS answered them, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of THE SON OF MAN and drink HIS blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats MY flesh and drinks MY blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For MY flesh is food indeed, and MY blood is drink indeed. He who eats MY flesh and drinks MY blood abides in ME, and I in him. As the living FATHER sent ME, and I live because of THE FATHER, so he who feeds on ME will live because of ME. This is the bread which came down from Heaven---not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats THIS BREAD will live forever.’” (John 6:52-59)

“Therefore many of HIS disciples, when they heard this, said, ‘This is a hard saying, who can understand it?’

When JESUS knew in HIMSELF that HIS disciples complained about this, HE said to them, ‘Does this offend you? What then if you should see THE SON OF MAN ascend where HE was before?

It is THE SPIRIT who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.

The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.’ For JESUS knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray HIM.

And HE said, ‘Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to ME unless it has been granted to him by MY FATHER.’” (vv 60-65)

(Commentaries regarding the meaning of JESUS' statements are reserved for a future post.)

Now, how can fourvetta’s statement, "Christ said, "My flesh profits Me nothing" be true/the truth, when JESUS, WHO IS THE TRUTH, said, “unless you eat the flesh of THE SON OF MAN and drink HIS blood, you have no life in you?”

It cannot and is not true/the truth because JESUS did not say the words fourvetta quoted JESUS as saying. fourvetta is notorious for misquoting thereby distorting/perverting and misrepresenting the truth.

These types of “blunders” on the part of fourvetta are not only shameful and inexcusable, they disqualify him as “a workman that needs not be ashamed” because he has proven time and again to be incapable of “rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)

A person in fourvetta's position with an ounce of humility and respect for THE LORD would have realized his inadequacy in rightly dividing the word of truth after the first admonishment, acknowledged his lack of knowledge of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, begged GOD for forgiveness in abusing and misusing HIS WORD, and set his heart/mind toward learning the truths of HIS WORD.

Does fourvetta do this?

On the contrary; not only does fourvetta not do this, he has absolutely no sense of SCRIPTURAL propriety neither the presence of mind to recognize it, and effectively, is oblivious to his true state --- prattler.

May THE LORD deliver fourvetta from himself......and those who have and do listen to him.

fourvetta · May 16, 2006

Another example of the blatant ignorance of and irreverence for the written and living WORD OF GOD by the SCRIPTURALLY illiterate new Israel jumpers/leapers.

JESUS did not say what fourvetta “quotes” JESUS as saying. If fourvetta knew THE HOLY SCRIPTURES he would have known this.

The scriptures are not the living Word of God. It is the spoken Words of God which gives life and not the written Word.

Christ said , "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

“It is THE SPIRIT WHO gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.”

JESUS is not speaking about HIS flesh here. If HE were, HE would be contradicting HIMSELF.

I agree, it is the spirit which gives life and not the flesh. Christ Himself died according to the flesh and was made alive again by the spirit.

Prior to His crucifiction, Christ said, "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." He was speaking of His own spirit and his own flesh. He asked, "Father, if at all possible take this cup from Me. But never the less according to thy will."

And when He said, "I will tear down this temple and in three days, raise it back up again", He was speaking of His own body. John 2: 18-22

18Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"

19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Then JESUS answered them, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of THE SON OF MAN and drink HIS blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats MY flesh and drinks MY blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For MY flesh is food indeed, and MY blood is drink indeed. He who eats MY flesh and drinks MY blood abides in ME, and I in him. As the living FATHER sent ME, and I live because of THE FATHER, so he who feeds on ME will live because of ME. This is the bread which came down from Heaven---not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats THIS BREAD will live forever.’”

Again I agree, unless one eats the flesh and drinks the of the living bread which comes down from heaven, He will not live,

The bread which descends from the heaven is the Wisdom of God. Better said, as "the Hidden Manna or Secret Wisdom." That Wisdom which is taught by God and the wisdom which is taught by men.

And only among those who are mature.

Christ says in Revelation 2, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna."

Paul explains exactly what is this living bread.

6.We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

7. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

8.None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The rulers of this age in context here are the rulers of the synogogue. They had the wisdom which taught by men and not God.

9.However, as it is written:

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived

what God has prepared for those who love him"

10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

11.For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

12.We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

13.This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

14.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

fourvetta · May 16, 2006

These types of “blunders” on the part of fourvetta are not only shameful and inexcusable, they disqualify him as “a workman that needs not be ashamed” because he has proven time and again to be incapable of “rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)

A person in fourvetta's position with an ounce of humility and respect for THE LORD would have realized his inadequacy in rightly dividing the word of truth after the first admonishment, acknowledged his lack of knowledge of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, begged GOD for forgiveness in abusing and misusing HIS WORD, and set his heart/mind toward learning the truths of HIS WORD.

Does fourvetta do this?

On the contrary; not only does fourvetta not do this, this person has absolutely no sense of SCRIPTURAL propriety neither the presence of mind to recognize it, and effectively, is oblivious to his true state --- prattler.

May THE LORD deliver fourvetta from himself......and those who have and do listen to him.

Again we see the same mindset of the fallen Jew.

Paul himself had the same problem during his time. By the letter they killed all the prophets and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.

4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

Think about it. They used the scriptures to condem Him. Just as the devil used scriptures to tempt Christ. Even after that, all the true believers in Him.

Why?? Because they did not have the Wisdom of God.... Better said as the bread which comes down from heaven.

Paul continues;

19 For it is written:

“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;

23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,

24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men

Edited May 16, 2006 by fourvetta

coffee · May 17, 2006

.

From fourvetta:

Christ preceeded the Light that was created on the fouth day. He is the image and the Glory of God that was created on the first day.... - fourvetta

From the Bible:

He [speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1:15-16)

Based on the above passage, the Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator, and according what is written in the Scriptures, the Creator is God.

The portion of the above Scripture that Rudometkinites like fourvetta ignore and pretend does not exist, is the literal context of the words, all creation and all things.

In the original Greek Biblical text, these words literally mean Jesus Christ is the One Who created ALL things, and that He, the Lord Jesus Christ, is over ALL creation, because of the simple fact that all things were created by Him, through Him and for Him.

In context, this means that Jesus both created, and is over, everything that was created, from Day # 1 through Day # 6 of Creation.

In context, this means that Christ both created, and is over, the light that fourvetta insists is Jesus, which was created on Day # 1.

In context, this means that Christ is NOT the specific light which was created on Day # 1, because He is the Creator Who created all that exists, and the pre incarnate Jesus could not therefore "create" Himself, since He already preexisted prior to the beginning of Creation.

In context, this means that Christ cannot be the light that was created on Day # 1, since He is the One Who is over all creation, and because the light on Day # 1 was "created", Jesus cannot therefore be "over" Himself.

If we are to accept and believe fourvetta's theory, that the Lord Jesus Christ is a created being, we would have to change the Word of God in order to adapt it to the theology and belief system of the Rudometkinites, and annex the various heresies that are written in the Spirit and Life book.

With more than ample historical documentation as evidence, the written Word of God in existence today, known as the Bible, is virtually identical to what the disciples of Jesus Christ, and His Apostles, and His followers, used as they began to teach the world about the Gospel of salvation and the forgiveness of sins, by grace alone, through faith alone, in the Lord Jesus Christ alone.

Rudometkinites like fourvetta cannot "change" what exists in the Scriptures, so they twist what is written in the Bible out of context in order to have their own personalized version of what they want to believe. In doing so, they hand craft the Biblical text to their own extra-Biblical theology, which is the very belief system that is perpetuated by Rudometkin's heresies in the Spirit and Life book.

In my experience with individual Rudometkinite zealots like fourvetta, I find that there is a unapologetic disrespect and irreverence for the written Word of God in the Holy Scriptures, while at the same time, there exists a defiant arrogance, indeed a haughty "attitude", that before anything can even be considered as "truth", the writings in the Spirit and Life book must be accepted as being equal to the Bible, first and foremost, above and beyond everything else.

As we see in fourvetta's constant and continual twisting of Scripture out of context, the ultimate goal of the writings in the Spirit and Life book is to bring the reader(s) to the knowledge of M. G. Rudometkin as the alleged "New Jewish Messiah", the alleged "conqueror", King of Spirits, God of the faithful, etc.

From Rudometkin, in the Spirit and Life book, speaking about himself, Rudometkin:

I am called by this new name today and always, in heaven and on earth; For I am Yool'iesar, the king Yoores, the new Jewish Messiah; And the Jew and all the tribes of the nations shall bow down to me. (Page 498, Book 10, Article 8, Verse 7.)

As anonymous has stated:

Another example of the blatant ignorance of and irreverence for the written and living WORD OF GOD by the SCRIPTURALLY illiterate new Israel jumpers/leapers. - anonymous, # 51

The purpose and intent of the Spirit and Life book is to teach the reader(s) about Rudometkin, and about how those who follow Rudometkin and adhere to his writings are more "special" in the eyes of God, ultimately because of Rudometkin, than the rest of mankind.

The Spirit and Life book was never intended by the publishers to lead the reader(s) to a deeper knowledge of God, and a closer, more intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

For that, we already have the written Word of God, the Bible.

.

fourvetta · May 17, 2006

Based on the above passage, the Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator, and according what is written in the Scriptures, the Creator is God.

The portion of the above Scripture that Rudometkinites like fourvetta ignore and pretend does not exist, is the literal context of the words, all creation and all things.

In the original Greek Biblical text, these words literally mean Jesus Christ is the One Who created ALL things, and that He, the Lord Jesus Christ, is over ALL creation, because of the simple fact that all things were created by Him, through Him and for Him.

Based on what your are saying, then Jesus Christ also created the Father, being that He created all things.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1:15-16)

anonymous · May 17, 2006

?JESUS said, ?It is THE SPIRIT who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.?? (John 6:63)

fourvetta,

Which [spoken] words of HIS is JESUS referring to?

Where are you reading these spoken words of JESUS which are spirit and life?

fourvetta
Yesterday, 03:37 PM

Post #53

They used the scriptures to condem Him. Just as the devil used scriptures to tempt Christ.

fourvetta,

WHO spoke the following words, and to whom was HE speaking?

?It is written, ?Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of GOD.??

?It is written again, ?You shall not tempt THE LORD your GOD.??

?For it is written, ?You shall worship THE LORD your GOD and HIM only you shall serve.??

Are the above words, "words of spirit and life"?

What is HE WHO spoke the above words referring to when HE says, ?It is written...?

Gohloovoo nee lamai.

It was JESUS WHO spoke the above words to the devil.

JESUS is referring to THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, the Tanakh in particular, when HE says, ?It is written..."

Now, if "the letter of the scriptures is dead" as you have postulated in a previous post (#40), why is CHRIST JESUS referring to the written word of GOD, THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, the Tanakh, i.e., "It is written...," when rebuking the devil?

Remember, JESUS? spoken words are "spirit and life." (John 6:63b)

By the letter they killed all the prophets and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

fourvetta's "By the letter" refers to THE HOLY SCRIPTURES as he has mentioned in a previous post:

fourvetta
May 8 2006, 07:26 AM

Post #40

Christ came to save us from the dead letter of the scriptures. All the prophets and Christ Himself died according to it. The devil is the best misinterpreter of it.

One cannot help but lament fourvetta and his twisted brethren. The only thing CHRISTians can do for them is.......pray.......pray for their release from the falsehoods which keep them in bondage from knowing, SCRIPTURALLY, thus, spiritually, THE TRUTH and HIS freedom.

JESUS did not come to save mankind from ?the dead letter of the scriptures,? nor did ?all the prophets died according to it.?

The phrase: ?dead letter of the scriptures? is not found in THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. It is one of many of mgr's and his faithful followers' perversions of SCRIPTURE.

References to "letter," i.e., ?the letter kills,? in THE HOLY SCRIPTURES are made to---the Law.

One of the reasons JESUS came from Heaven to earth is to fulfill the Law and the Prophets.

JESUS? death did not do away with the law.

JESUS HIMSELF clarified this when HE said, ?Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, ?till Heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.? (Matthew 5:17-20)

Which commandments is JESUS referring to in the above passages?

ANSWER: The Decalogue, the Ten ?Commandments? or Ten ?Words? of the covenant between THE LORD.......GOD, and HIS creatures......man(kind), the first four of which describe how HIS people are to relate to GOD ("This is the first and great commandment: ?You shall love THE LORD your GOD with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'"), while the remainder describe how GOD?S people are to relate to each other (?And the second is like it: ?You shall love your neighbor as yourself.?")

"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:40)

Now, if fourvetta would simply stop and think about his statement for a moment, and ask himself:

If JESUS came to save mankind from "the dead letter of scriptures,? why would HE refer to and warn against breaking the commandments, which commandments (the Law) are found in THE HOLY SCRIPTURES?

If the ?letter of the scriptures is dead,? why would JESUS, referring to THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, say to satan:

?But HE answered and said, ?It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of GOD.?? (Matthew 4:4)

?JESUS said to him, ?It is written again, ?You shall not tempt THE LORD your GOD.? (Matthew 4:7)

If the ?letter of the scriptures is dead,? why would Apostle Paul, referring to THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, say:

"As it is written, 'There is none righteous, no, not one...'" (Romans 3:10)

Apostle Paul wrote regarding the letter of the law:

?Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of CHRIST, that you may be married to another---to HIM WHO was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to GOD. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of THE SPIRIT and not in the oldness of the letter (of the law).

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law said, ?You shall not covet.? But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

?Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of GOD according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank GOD---through JESUS CHRIST our LORD!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of GOD, but with the flesh the law of sin.? (Romans 7:1-25)

Apostle John wrote regarding JESUS:

?And THE WORD became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld HIS glory, the glory as of the only begotten of THE FATHER, full of grace and truth.

John bore witness of HIM and cried out, saying, ?This was HE of WHOM I said, ?HE WHO comes after me is preferred before me, for HE was before me.?

And of HIS fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through JESUS CHRIST.? (John 1:14-17)

The Law, as well as the Prophets, pointed forward to.......JESUS.

In chapter 8 of Romans Apostle Paul explains, with GOD'S grace and truth which came through JESUS CHRIST as the centerpiece of his treatise, the ?balance? between the law and THE SPIRIT which by no means are mutually exclusive.

We know from reading THE HOLY SCRIPTURES that not a one person save JESUS CHRIST was/is able to keep the law completely/perfectly. And because of HIS obedience and fulfillment of the Law (which Law is holy, spiritual, just, and good), completely/perfectly:

?There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in CHRIST JESUS, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to THE SPIRIT. For the law of THE SPIRIT of life in CHRIST JESUS has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, GOD did by sending HIS OWN SON in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin. HE condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to THE SPIRIT.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to THE SPIRIT, the things of THE SPIRIT. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against GOD; for it is not subject to the law of GOD, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please GOD.

But you are not in the flesh but in THE SPIRIT, if indeed THE SPIRIT OF GOD dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is not HIS. And if CHRIST is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but THE SPIRIT is life because of righteousness*. But if THE SPIRIT of HIM WHO raised JESUS from the dead dwells in you, HE WHO raised CHRIST from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through HIS SPIRIT WHO dwells in you.? (Romans 8:1-11)

*WHOSE righteousness? JESUS? righteousness --- the robe HIS faithful bride is clothed in.

And in 2 Corinthians, Apostle Paul again writes regarding the letter of the Law:

?And we have such trust through CHRIST toward GOD. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from GOD, WHO also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter (of the Law) but of THE SPIRIT (of the Law), for the letter (of the Law) kills, but THE SPIRIT (of the Law) gives life.? (2 Corinthians 3:4-6)

Why and how does the letter of the Law --- kill?

The answer is found in Romans 3:10-20,

?As it is written: ?There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after GOD. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of GOD before their eyes.?

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before GOD. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in HIS sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.?

And in Romans 7:8,

"For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it (the commandment) killed me."

And how are true believers forgiven, justified, and made righteous in the sight of GOD apart from the law (which condemned/killed them because they could not keep it completely/perfectly)?

"But now the righteousness of GOD apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of GOD, through faith in JESUS CHRIST, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD, being justified freely by HIS grace through the redemption that is in CHRIST JESUS, WHOM GOD set forth as a propitiation by HIS blood, through faith, to demonstrate HIS righteousness, because in HIS forbearance GOD had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time HIS righteousness, that HE might be just and THE JUSTIFIER of the one who has faith in JESUS." (Romans 3:21-26)

The law brought knowledge of sin and simultaneously condemned because not a one person was/is able to keep the law completely/perfectly.......except.......JESUS, THE ONE WHO came to earth from Heaven, THE WORD OF GOD WHO is.......IMMANUEL.......GOD with us.

THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, THE HOLY SPIRIT residing within those who are in CHRIST JESUS, empowers them to keep/obey the law, the greatest commandment of GOD, in THE SPIRIT in which the law was given.......LOVE.

?But when the Pharisees heard that HE had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked HIM a question, testing HIM, and saying, ?Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law??

JESUS said to him, ?You shall love THE LORD your GOD with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ?You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.? (Matthew 22:34-40)

JESUS, THE LOGOS, THE WORD OF GOD WHO is GOD, WHO is LOVE, in [HIS] SPIRIT and in [HIS] TRUTH, in complete/perfect harmony with HIMSELF, was quoting HIS own words, the ?inspired? (GOD-breathed) words found in Deuteronomy 6:4 and Leviticus 19.

fourvetta,

Are JESUS? spoken words written in Matthew 22:34-40 ?spirit and life??

Where is the greatest commandment(s) found which JESUS spoke?

ANSWER: THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, the inspired (GOD-breathed) WORD(S) OF GOD, WHO IS SPIRIT, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE GIVER OF LIFE, WHOSE WORDS are "spirit and life."

THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, the inspired (GOD-breathed) WORD(S) OF GOD, WHO IS SPIRIT, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE GIVER OF LIFE WHO gave the law to Moses who documented/recorded/wrote it for your beloved hero, for you, for your brethren, and for all of mankind to obey in order that they may have.......life.

The law reflects GOD?S HOLY character and HIS purposes for created beings. GOD commands the behavior that pleases HIM and forbids what offends HIM. JESUS summarizes the moral law in the two great commandments, to love GOD and to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40). HE says that on these two depends all the Old Testament moral instructions. The moral teaching of JESUS and HIS apostles is the law deepened and reapplied to new circumstances---life in THE KINGDOM OF GOD, where THE SAVIOR reigns, and in the post-Pentecost era of THE SPIRIT, when GOD?S people are called to live sanctified lives in the midst of a hostile world (John 17:6-19).

The fallen human heart hates GOD?S law, both because it is a law and because it comes from GOD. Those who know JESUS, however, find not only that they love the law and want to keep it, both to please GOD and out of gratitude for grace (Romans 7:18-22; 12:1, 2), but also that THE HOLY SPIRIT leads them into a degree of obedience to the law that was never theirs before (Romans 7:6; 8:4-6; Hebrews 10:16).

Which brings up the matter of mgr and his new commandments, his new law(s), his new spirit, his new spiritual marriage(s), his new fiery tongues, etc.......to be examined in a subsequent post.

fourvetta · May 17, 2006

“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in CHRIST JESUS, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to THE SPIRIT. For the law of THE SPIRIT of life in CHRIST JESUS has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, GOD did by sending HIS OWN SON in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin. HE condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to THE SPIRIT.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to THE SPIRIT, the things of THE SPIRIT. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against GOD; for it is not subject to the law of GOD, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please GOD.

But you are not in the flesh but in THE SPIRIT, if indeed THE SPIRIT OF GOD dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is not HIS. And if CHRIST is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but THE SPIRIT is life because of righteousness*. But if THE SPIRIT of HIM WHO raised JESUS from the dead dwells in you, HE WHO raised CHRIST from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through HIS SPIRIT WHO dwells in you.” (Romans 8:1-11)

Agreed. Unless one is born again of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Which is within you.

Otherwise, one has to rely on his own righteousness obtained by the law, which is not possible.

Or.....

He can have the righteousness by faith. Faith comes from hearing and hearing, by the Word of God. Hearing is the intersessor between faith and the Word.

Christ said, "When I come again, will I find faith?"

Or.. will He find a deaf ear and a blind eye?

steadfast · May 17, 2006

FV, Who does the Bible say is really the “ne-nash”? Your answer is in Rom 8:9

“And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. “ NIV

One should discern with a few of your comments from other threads as well.

It's the scripture that really judges a person isn't it?

fourvetta · May 18, 2006

FV, Who does the Bible say is really the “ne-nash”? Your answer is in Rom 8:9
“And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. “ NIV

I agree. MGR book 9 articles 26 & 27

Discernment of Spirits is one of the ten gifts of the Holy Spirit.

There are sons & daughters of God and there are sons & daughters of men.

God said to Eve, "I will put emnity between thy seed and the seed of the serpent."

In other words, a mutual hatred between the two.

The clean man and the unclean man.

On account of the sons of God mixing with the daughters of men, God said, "My Spirit shall not dwell with such as these."

God on account of them, destroyed the first world.

Only the sons & daughters of God remained.

Edited May 18, 2006 by fourvetta

coffee · May 18, 2006

.

From fourvetta:

Based on what your are saying, then Jesus Christ also created the Father, being that He created all things. - fourvetta

Years ago, I had the opportunity to share my faith with an individual who was a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses religion. My last visit with the man ended with him making a comment virtually identical to that which fourvetta has made above.

The Jehovah's Witnesses share in common with today's Rudometkinites a theology that denies the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. Members of each religious group typically will not allow their pride to accept and receive the Truth of God's Word that is written in the Bible, which testifies that Jesus is God in the flesh, and the Creator over all of Creation.

When it eventually sinks in that their credibility has crumbled, and their lack of comprehension and twisted understanding of the Scriptures has been exposed, these individuals are at a loss of what to say, so they typically react with a silly and ludicrous response, much like fourvetta's statement above.

Going back to what Anakainosis stated in Post # 14:

An example of what Trinitarians believe:

"The Trinity: God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God." (Wayne Grudem)

Three persons, yet one God.

It surprises me how someone still thinks that when we call Jesus God we are saying that Jesus and the Father are the same person, so they start quoting verses where Jesus talks to his Father as if it were to prove someone wrong.

Three separate persons, yet one God.

Father (1 Person), Son (Another person), and Holy Spirit (And yet another separate person)

3 persons who are fully God = ONE GOD not three gods

What surprises me even more [is that] our Russian Molokan forefathers were Trinitarians, and some wish to believe that was never the case.

According to what is written in the Bible, God is without beginning and without end. The Lord has always been. The Creator is eternal and self-sustaining, and there is no possibility in Him of ever ceasing to exist.

God is self-existing and in need of nothing, having life in Himself, as it is written in the Bible:

For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in Himself. (John 5:26)

but You [O my God] are the same, and your years have no end. (Psalm 102:27)

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. (Psalm 90:2)

From Post # 39:

One more time, the Scriptures testify that God the Father is God.

The Scriptures also testify that the Word of God is God, the same God as God the Father, existing as a second person Who is Deity.

The Scriptures further testify that the Holy Spirit is God, the same God as God the Father, the same God as the Word of God, existing as a third person Who is Deity.

The Scriptures testify that the Word of God became human flesh when He was begotten as the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.

God exists in triune unity as three persons. All three persons of the Trinity are the same ONE God, the same eternal God, without beginning and without end.

From Post # 37:

Just as the Holy Spirit has always been God, for as long as God has been God, the Word has also coexisted eternally with God.

The Word and the Holy Spirit are each coequal with God the Father, in that each is truly the same ONE God, in every sense of the word.

God did not create the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has always been God for as long as God has been God, eternally.

Likewise, God did not create His Word. The Word has always been God, and has always been with God, for as long as God has been God.

The Word and the Holy Spirit have each coexisted with God the Father, eternally.

The issue here is whether or not one accepts and believes what is written in the Scriptures. These are the same Scriptures which predate the emperor Constantine and the Ecumenical Councils.

These same Scriptures testify that Jesus is Who He claimed to be, Who His disciples knew Him to be, and Who his followers believed Him to be, based on what Christ's Apostles taught to the early Christian Church.

The Rudometkinites fall into the same category as the Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as any number of other pseudo Christian cults, who deny the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. Ultimately, these individuals have no response to the Truth of what is written in the Bible, other than to make some silly, moronic statement, such as the one which fourvetta has made.

In light of how Rudometkin's followers view themselves, especially how they continue to posture themselves as being allegedly "spiritually advanced", how embarrassing for the Rudometkinites that the best they can come up with is fourvetta's absurd summary.

.

seeking_truth_1 · May 18, 2006

What I find interesting is that individuals such as coffee and anonymous have made excellent points based upon Scripture and cite contextural Biblical references to back up their positions

All the pro-snl types can say is "no it's not" or "you just don't understand" and their opinions are devoid of ANY Biblical basis

I too have cited numerous Biblical references where Jesus Himself has called Himself God yet the 2 bookers can only stick their fingers in their spiritual ears and say "la la la la la...I am not listening"

Why is that?

seeking_truth_1 · February 28, 2007

(bringing it to the top)

seeking_truth_1 · March 8, 2007

"11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself [His] own special people, zealous for good works." (Titus 2:11-14 NKJV)

Isn't God, The Father, Spirit? ""God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."" (John 4:24 NKJV)

How can He (God) physically appear unless this speaks of Jesus as God in physical form?

fourvetta · March 8, 2007

"11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself [His] own special people, zealous for good works." (Titus 2:11-14 NKJV)

Isn't God, The Father, Spirit? ""God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."" (John 4:24 NKJV)

How can He (God) physically appear unless this speaks of Jesus as God in physical form?

That's exactly what I have been trying to say! The Word of God is God within Christ.

Christ said, all manner of blasphemy is forgiven against the son of man, but nothing is forgiven against the Holy Spirit within Him, who is God.

Hebrews 1;

1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,

2 but in these last (past) days he has spoken to us by his Son,

The Word of God continues with the Prophets.

Christ said, "Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town."

seeking_truth_1 · March 9, 2007

I'll address 2 points

1) FV, your doctrine also asserts that mgr is God

Next,

The Word of God is God within Christ.

Haven't you read

"1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn`t make.

4 Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone.

5 The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.

6 God sent John the Baptist

7 to tell everyone about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony.

8 John himself was not the light; he was only a witness to the light.

9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was going to come into the world.

10 But although the world was made through him, the world didn`t recognize him when he came.

11 Even in his own land and among his own people, he was not accepted.

12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.

13 They are reborn! This is not a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan““this rebirth comes from God.

14 So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father." (John 1:1-14 NLT)

Who is the Word?

"11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself [His] own special people, zealous for good works." (Titus 2:11-14 NKJV)

Isn't God, The Father, Spirit? ""God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."" (John 4:24 NKJV)

How can He (God) physically appear unless this speaks of Jesus as God in physical form?

That's exactly what I have been trying to say! The Word of God is God within Christ.

Christ said, all manner of blasphemy is forgiven against the son of man, but nothing is forgiven against the Holy Spirit within Him, who is God.

Hebrews 1;

1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,

2 but in these last (past) days he has spoken to us by his Son,

The Word of God continues with the Prophets.

Christ said, "Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town."

fourvetta · March 9, 2007

I'll address 2 points

1) FV, your doctrine also asserts that mgr is God

Next,

The Word of God is God within Christ.

Haven't you read

"1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn`t make.

4 Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone.

5 The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.

6 God sent John the Baptist

7 to tell everyone about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony.

8 John himself was not the light; he was only a witness to the light.

9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was going to come into the world.

10 But although the world was made through him, the world didn`t recognize him when he came.

11 Even in his own land and among his own people, he was not accepted.

12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.

13 They are reborn! This is not a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan““this rebirth comes from God.

14 So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father." (John 1:1-14 NLT)

Who is the Word?

The Word is God. By the Word of God all things are sustained and live. Without the Word nothing was created. The Word always was, always is, and always will be.

After Christ conquered, He sat down at the right hand of the Father on His throne. Known as the Word of God.

This same Christ, sat on His throne, who is a man in the Spirit of Truth.

The Word of God is not a book. It is Spirit.

23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

24 God (the Word) is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Christ said, "The Words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are life."

This same Christ, the Spoken Words of God, visited us in the 19th century.

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery, as I have briefly written already,

4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ,

5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the

Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

The believer is a partaker in the Glory of Christ. The Glory of Christ is the Word which the Father has given Him. Which He in turn gives to us.

By which, the Word of God is made manifest in men and resurrects our mortal bodies.

As the scripture says, "Behold the tabernacle of God (the Word) is with men. I shall make all things new."

seeking_truth_1 · March 9, 2007

To your comment

The Word of God is not a book. It is Spirit.

Haven't you read

14 So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father." (John 1:14 NLT)

How does this fit?

I'll address 2 points

1) FV, your doctrine also asserts that mgr is God

Next,

The Word of God is God within Christ.

Haven't you read

"1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn`t make.

4 Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone.

5 The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.

6 God sent John the Baptist

7 to tell everyone about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony.

8 John himself was not the light; he was only a witness to the light.

9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was going to come into the world.

10 But although the world was made through him, the world didn`t recognize him when he came.

11 Even in his own land and among his own people, he was not accepted.

12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.

13 They are reborn! This is not a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan““this rebirth comes from God.

14 So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father." (John 1:1-14 NLT)

Who is the Word?

The Word is God. By the Word of God all things are sustained and live. Without the Word nothing was created. The Word always was, always is, and always will be.

After Christ conquered, He sat down at the right hand of the Father on His throne. Known as the Word of God.

This same Christ, sat on His throne, who is a man in the Spirit of Truth.

The Word of God is not a book. It is Spirit.

23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

24 God (the Word) is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Christ said, "The Words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are life."

This same Christ, the Spoken Words of God, visited us in the 19th century.

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery, as I have briefly written already,

4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ,

5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the

Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

The believer is a partaker in the Glory of Christ. The Glory of Christ is the Word which the Father has given Him. Which He in turn gives to us.

By which, the Word of God is made manifest in men and resurrects our mortal bodies.

As the scripture says, "Behold the tabernacle of God (the Word) is with men. I shall make all things new."

fourvetta · March 9, 2007

To your comment

The Word of God is not a book. It is Spirit.

Haven't you read

14 So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And

If Christ is the Word of God, how is it that you call a book the Word of God?

Christ said in John 5

36"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me.

37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Because someone has a knowledge of the scriptures, does not mean that He has eternal life within him. Nor does it mean that the Word of God dwells within him.

The scriptures are not the light.

They are a witness to the true light. The true light that gives life to men. The true light that came to be on the first day of creation.

3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

As John said, "He who comes after Me is preferred before Me. For He was before Me."

The spoken Word was before the written Word. By the Spoken Word of God all things were created. Without it, nothing was created.

The heavens, the earth and all things within them.

seeking_truth_1 · March 10, 2007

I asked you who (not what) is "The Word of God"

Eschuchen & repeatan...

Who is the Word of God?

Otra ves

Who is the Word of God?

fourvetta · March 10, 2007

I asked you who (not what) is "The Word of God"

Eschuchen & repeatan...

Who is the Word of God?

Otra ves

Who is the Word of God?

The Word of God is not a who or a what.

The Word of God is Omnipresent. By His Word, we live, move, and breath. Life exists because of God's Word.

When God, who is the Word, sent Moses, He said, "Tell them I AM sent you.

Is the Word of God present here on earth at this time or will the Word come at some time in the future? Are you waiting for the Word come in book form or in the form of a man? Will you recognize the Word of God?

seeking_truth_1 · March 11, 2007

The Word isn't a who?

Haven't you read...

"1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn`t make.

4 Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone.

5 The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.

6 God sent John the Baptist

7 to tell everyone about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony.

8 John himself was not the light; he was only a witness to the light.

9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was going to come into the world.

10 But although the world was made through him, the world didn`t recognize him when he came.

11 Even in his own land and among his own people, he was not accepted.

12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.

13 They are reborn! This is not a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan““this rebirth comes from God.

14 So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father." (John 1:1-14 NLT)

Who is the Word?

I asked you who (not what) is "The Word of God"

Eschuchen & repeatan...

Who is the Word of God?

Otra ves

Who is the Word of God?

The Word of God is not a who or a what.

The Word of God is Omnipresent. By His Word, we live, move, and breath. Life exists because of God's Word.

When God, who is the Word, sent Moses, He said, "Tell them I AM sent you.

Is the Word of God present here on earth at this time or will the Word come at some time in the future? Are you waiting for the Word come in book form or in the form of a man? Will you recognize the Word of God?

seeking_truth_1 · March 11, 2007

Who is The Word?

fourvetta · March 12, 2007

Who is The Word?

As Maxim writes to us book 5 article 12

Jesus Christ is Himself the Word of God.

As in the past God the Father spoke to us through His prophets has in these past days spoken to us, through His Son. In this was God's Word manifest in man and to man.

As in "past days or last days" refers to the days during the time of Paul when he wrote that passage.

Christ is specific in John 17 saying;

6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.

8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

The Word of God is also the Glory of God. Those who receive the Word of God receive the Glory of God which was given to His Son. The Son imparts His Glory to those who receive His Word. The believer is One with the Father and the Son, just as Christ is One with the Father.

This is the Way to the Father.

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You

In the same chapter;

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me;

The one who does not accept the Word of God preached now by the believer has no access to the Father or the Son.

Christ said, "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;"

"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me."

Out of the belly of the believer shall flow rivers of living waters.

seeking_truth_1 · March 12, 2007

Are you saying Jesus Christ is The Word?

Now, fast forward to another passage

"11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.

13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And He has on [His] robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:11-16 NKJV)

Who then is The Word in the passage in Revelation? (singular - no s on the end)

Who is The Word?

As Maxim writes to us book 5 article 12

Jesus Christ is Himself the Word of God.

As in the past God the Father spoke to us through His prophets has in these past days spoken to us, through His Son. In this was God's Word manifest in man and to man.

As in "past days or last days" refers to the days during the time of Paul when he wrote that passage.

Christ is specific in John 17 saying;

6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.

8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

The Word of God is also the Glory of God. Those who receive the Word of God receive the Glory of God which was given to His Son. The Son imparts His Glory to those who receive His Word. The believer is One with the Father and the Son, just as Christ is One with the Father.

This is the Way to the Father.

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You

In the same chapter;

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me;

The one who does not accept the Word of God preached now by the believer has no access to the Father or the Son.

Christ said, "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;"

"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me."

Out of the belly of the believer shall flow rivers of living waters.

fourvetta · March 13, 2007

Are you saying Jesus Christ is The Word?

Now, fast forward to another passage

"11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.

13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And He has on [His] robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:11-16 NKJV)

Who then is The Word in the passage in Revelation? (singular - no s on the end)

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself sat upon His heavenly throne, who is a man in the Holy Spirit.

The White Horse is now called the Word of God. He is also called Faithful and True, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

"Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!"

Is Jesus God?

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