Response To otkroveniya 22

[Guest Guest_otkroveniya22_*]

Greetings Seeking- Here is another quote/reference by Jesus of the Apochrypha(Deutorocannonicals)[KJV]

 

 

Luke 6:31: And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

 

Tobit 4:15: Do that to no man which thou hatest......

 

Here is a quote by the Gospel writer Matthew(KJV)...

 

Matt 27:43: He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God

 

Wisdom of Solomon 2:18" For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies.

 

QUOTE:

First, I would not make the statement that

QUOTE

our Molokan forefathers relied upon the books

seeing as the molokans split from the Russian Orthodox (Catholic) Church because of doctrinal disagreements

 

Seeking, here I would disagree with you, and here is the evidence: First of all the Molokans did not split with the Orthodox over the Deutorocannonicals, but over issues as icon worship, swine eating, military conscription, drunk clergy, etc. Also, in ***** *****************'s english translation of Feodor Livanov's Dissenters and prisoners, you can find on page 81 that the Molokans of Saratov in 1798 quoted Sirach 37:12 as scripture.(Ecclesiasticus).On page 84 you will find the following, and I quote

 

"About the performance of weddings we are founded on the Scriptures: Tobit 7:9,12-13, After Tobias was married, then Raguel said to Tobias: Eat drink and be merry, for it is your right to take my child, and said, Remember her."

 

 

Further on page 85 you will find regarding the burial of the dead, the Saratov Molokans take the example of Tobit in Tobit 1:17-19 and 2:7-8.

 

"What I'm a bit puzzled by is that molokans are more like Catholics than they would like to admit yet label the Catholic Church as a part of the "ecumenical 666" churches"

 

###Seeking, the same can be said about the Baptists: For example, both the Baptists and Catholics alike believe in water baptism, the Trinity Doctrine, military service, eating pork, Easter, Christmas, divorce and remarriage( Although the Catholics cleverly disguise divorce under the annulment process);Both the Baptists and Catholics do not greet with the Holy Kiss; Both allow their women to worship without head coverings and in pants. And both have cross symbols on their church structures.

 

 

"molokans (groups 2 & 3 - like Catholics) accept

 

1) Prayer for the dead (Doctrine of Purgatory)"

 

###I am not aware that Molokans perform the doctrine of Purgatory. Praying for the dead is not the same as Purgatory, and correct me if I am wrong but the Catholics believe that the dead in purgatory are already on their way to Heaven, but cannot enter until the stain of sin is "purged" which living Catholics can accomplish by "indulgences". Molokans on the other hand do not know for sure who will make the successfull transfer to Heaven. Molokans only know that God can do this.

 

 

RV22.

 

 

 

Revelations 22:12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

[Guest otkroveniya 22]

Since Salvation is by Grace and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-11), a "last rights" prayer or prayer for the dead doesn't do anything to change the eternal destination of the soon to be or dearly departed

###Greetings Seeking- I see salvation as more than just Grace alone. Here in the Ephesians cite Paul is at odds with himself, as well as with James and the Gospel writers over the Doctrine of Salvation. For example, in Romans you will find the following:

 

Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (NKJV)

 

###This verse indicates that salvation is a future tense occurence, otherwise the verse would say "We are saved by His life"

This indicates the need for something to fill this timeframe from say now until the future. Grace alone cannot fullfil this. Thus the following is needed:

 

Phillippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;(NKJV)

 

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.(NKJV)

 

###Thus Salvation is a process, begun with the Grace of Christ's atonement but requiring works for "maintenance and upkeep" so to speak.

 

To quote the confessional prayer

 

"I believe O Lord, my God and God of my forefathers. I believe that Thou art the Almighty God who quickeneth all that is living.

I believe that life and death are in Thy hands.

I pray Thee, O Lord, give me back my former health; remember me and hearken unto me as Thou hast hearkened unto the ailing Hezekiah.

But if my hour indeed hath come, and if I must die, then let my death reconcile me with Thee, and cleanse me of my sins, which I have committed against Thee, from the days of my youth until the present moment, sins that are known and unknown to me.

And moreover, I pray Thee O Lord, that I may inherit paradise and the eternal blessings that have been prepared for the righteous.

And that I may be worthy to gaze upon Thy shining face.

Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, who heareth our supplications. Amen."

 

No where does it acknowledge Jesus as Lord, Savior or God

 

###I am not aware that there is a New Testament requirement to pray to Jesus. In fact Jesus teaces us how to Pray in the following:

 

Mathew 6: 8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

 

Our Father in heaven,

Hallowed be Your name.

10 Your kingdom come.

Your will be done

On earth as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts,

As we forgive our debtors.

13 And do not lead us into temptation,

But deliver us from the evil one.

For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen (NKJV)

 

 

Another example of how to pray is:

 

John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

 

Here once again Jesus is praying to God his father and our father.

 

According the Scripture, His name is the only one by which one may be Saved

###Seeking, there is no argument here. I totally agree. However, we are not talking about men or people's names here. If so, then I would have to put a name on "works" which would be absurd.

 

Can you explain the apparent contradiction between what the Bible teaches versus the Apocrypha ?

 

###Hopefully, this is what I just did to some extent. Speaking of apparent contradictions, perhaps you can clarify the apparent contradiction in the following two Gospel passages:

 

Matthew 8:5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, "Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented."

7 And Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him(NKJV)

 

Luke 7" Now when He concluded all His sayings in the hearing of the people, He entered Capernaum. 2 And a certain centurion`s servant, who was dear to him, was sick and ready to die. 3 So when he heard about Jesus, he sent elders of the Jews to Him, pleading with Him to come and heal his servant. 4 And when they came to Jesus, they begged Him earnestly, saying that the one for whom He should do this was deserving, 5 "for he loves our nation, and has built us a synagogue."

6 Then Jesus went with them. And when He was already not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to Him, saying to Him, "Lord, do not trouble Yourself, for I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof. 7 Therefore I did not even think myself worthy to come to You. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I also am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to one, ˜Go,` and he goes; and to another, ˜Come,` and he comes; and to my servant, ˜Do this,` and he does it."

9 When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turned around and said to the crowd that followed Him, "I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!" 10 And those who were sent, returning to the house, found the servant well who had been sick.

 

###My question to you, Seeking, is did the Centurion himself spoke to Jesus, or did others do it for him?

 

Regards, RV22.

 

 

 

Revelations 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work(NKJV)

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Good Afternoon:

 

Quite a flurry of activity and that'll be a lot to cover...

 

It may not be in the exact order, but I'll begin to do so shortly

 

Need a cuppa first

 

All His best

[EGK 0]

"It is evident that Luke also reports that it was not the servant who came to Jesus in person; rather, it was the centurion. The nearest antecedent for the participle akousas (Hearing) and for apestein (he sent) is auto (by him) which was the last to be mentioned. Hence these two accounts are in perfect agreement."

 

Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by Gleason L Archer. Pg 321

 

 

John 16: 23-24" "And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, Verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full".

 

EGK

[coffee 0]

.

 

Regarding:

 

In addition, here is an example of Jesus quoting the Apocrypha (KJV) (Post #1 above)

 

Here is another quote/reference by Jesus of the Apochrypha (Deutorocannonicals) [KJV] (Post #6 above)

 

Here is a quote by the Gospel writer Matthew (KJV)... (Post #6 above)

 

Before discussing any hypothesis that the Lord Jesus Christ supposedly "quoted" from the writings of the Apocrypha, a distinction needs to be made with regard to what constitutes a "quote".

 

Following are a couple of examples from the Bible where Jesus literally "quotes" from the Scriptures:

 

As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet,

 

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.

 

Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways,

 

and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'" (Luke 3:4-6)

 

 

This "quote" from the Scriptures is found in the writings of the prophet Isaiah:

 

A voice cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

 

Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.

 

And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken." (Isaiah 40:3-5)

 

 

 

From the Bible:

 

This is he of whom it is written, "'Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.' (Matthew 11:10)

 

 

This "quote" from the Scriptures is found in the writings of the prophet Malachi:

 

Behold, I send my messenger and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. (Malachi 3:1)

 

 

The distinction is that whenever Christ actually "quoted" from the Scriptures, the Lord used the words, "It is written", or some other reference to the specific writings that He was referring to. There is no indication in any of the Biblical accounts of the life of Jesus that He ever "quoted" or even made reference to, as the written Word of God, any of the writings that are part of the Apocrypha. The same is true with the Apostles and the Disciples of Christ.

 

This was the criteria that was used by the Holy Spirit, Who guided the early Church fathers to canonize the writings of the Holy Bible, and was part of the reason why the writings in the Apocrypha were eliminated from consideration as "God-breathed" Scripture.

 

The Christian Church has never denied the fact that there are many "good things" that can be found in the writings of the Apocrypha, especially the wisdom that is written in the book of Ecclesiasticus (The Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach). There are many writings in the world that contain "good words" which are not the inspired Word of God.

 

To conclude that the Lord Jesus Christ allegedly "quoted" from the writings of the Apocrypha just because something found written in the Apocrypha is similar to words that were spoken by Jesus, as recorded in the Bible, especially when there is no specific reference made by Christ to suggest that "It is written" elsewhere, is no different than the individual who assumes that every time there is mention in the Scriptures of "the one who conquers" (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 2:26, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 3:12, and Revelation 3:21) this is automatically somehow a specific reference which Jesus is purportedly making about M. G. Rudometkin, just because Rudometkin was deceived into making such an absurd and heretical claim in the Spirit and Life book.

 

I remember when I was in college, a theory was presented in one of my classes that all religions, including the teachings of Jesus Christ, are basically the same, and as "proof", we were given some of the following "evidence":

 

1) You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. - (A teaching of Judaism, from the Old Testament of the Bible, Leviticus 19:18)

 

2) So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. - (A teaching of Christianity, from the New Testament of the Bible, Matthew 7:12)

 

3) Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself. (A teaching of Islam, from Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 13)

 

4) Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence. (A teaching of Confucianism, from Mencius VII.A.4)

 

5) Tsekung asked, "Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?" Confucius replied, "It is the word shu--reciprocity: Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you." (A teaching of Confucianism. Analects 15.23)

 

6) One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself. This is the essence of morality. All other activities are due to selfish desire. (A teaching of Hinduism, from Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva 113.8)

 

7) A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. (A teaching of Jainism, from Sutrakritanga 1.11.33)

 

 

To conclude that the different religions in the world are "basically" no different from the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ, based solely on similarities that exist in the various religious writings, is to assume that God endorses and accepts all individuals who are serious and sincere about the practice of their religion of choice, with due "recognition" given for their religious devotion to whichever "version" of "God" they exalt and worship.

 

For those who would like to read a thorough presentation of virtually all of the "errors, discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions" imaginable in the Bible, there are a couple of books written by C. Dennis McKinsey that focus attention entirely on this subject. One of them is entitled The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy. The other is entitled, Biblical Errancy: A Reference Guide.

 

Also, for any individual who is interested in what others have written in their attempt to discredit those who profess their faith as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, based on what is written in the Holy Scriptures as the authoritative Word of God, the internet offers many sources.

 

Simply enter into your search engine any of the key words, "errors, discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible", and there is listing after listing of individuals who have done extensive research on the subject. This includes discussions about what has been referred to in the above posts within this thread as "apparent contradictions", which are neither "new nor "unique".

 

There are several books that have been written by men who have attempted to address some of the questions that have been asked over the years by those critics and skeptics who question the validity, the authority, the inerrancy and the infallibility of the Bible. One excellent book is entitled When Critics Ask, written by Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe.

 

For those who are "readers", other books that address questions like those which have been asked in the above posts are:

 

Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, by Gleason L. Archer, which is mentioned by EGK in the most recent post.

 

Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible, by John W. Haley.

 

Bible Difficulties & Seeming Contradictions, by William Arndt.

 

.

[Guest Guest_otkroveniya22_*]

"It is evident that Luke also reports that it was not the servant who came to Jesus in person; rather, it was the centurion. The nearest antecedent for the participle akousas (Hearing) and for apestein (he sent) is auto (by him) which was the last to be mentioned. Hence these two accounts are in perfect agreement."

 

Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by Gleason L Archer. Pg 321

 

Greetings EGK- Without seeing the rest of Archer's notation preceeding the above, and based on this only, I am led to believe he is mistaken. First in Luke 7:3 the centurion sent elders and not a servant to Jesus as is stated above. Second, in Luke 7:6 the centurion sent friends and not a servant as Mr. Archer states here.Third, the English version states clearly that the centurion did not appear to Jesus. In addition, in the Nestles Greek New Testament you will find in verse 3 that the antecedent is not "by him" but "to him". In other words, the greek antecendent "auto" is preceeded by the predicate "to" and not "by" meaning as in to Jesus and not by Jesus. Can you clarify the descrepancy?

 

John 16: 23-24" "And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, Verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full".

 

EGK

 

 

###It seems to me that the above verse is negated by the following verse which renders Jesus' promise here invalid:

 

 

John 16:25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you[NKJV]

 

Regards, RV22.

 

 

Matthew 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, ˜Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.` 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."[NKJV]

[seeking_truth_1 0]

After prayerfully considering my response to you, this is what I come up with

 

Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Do you consider the Bible the Word of God?

 

The balance of your statements and questions are moot if you question the veracity of Scripture

[seeking_truth_1 0]

After prayerfully considering my response to you, this is what I come up with

 

Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Do you consider the Bible the Word of God?

 

The balance of your statements and questions are moot if you question the veracity of Scripture

[Grace 0]

After prayerfully considering my response to you, this is what I come up with

 

Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Do you consider the Bible the Word of God?

 

The balance of your statements and questions are moot if you question the veracity of Scripture

 

 

 

Seeking:

 

The reason Otkroveniya or any other pro-Spirit and Life Molokan MUST DOUBT THE BIBLE is because the alternative is unacceptable: that the S&L may be wrong....that Makcim may be a false prophet and that some Molokans have decided to ignore the history and the deception and just "keep playing church" as usual.

 

It is easier for them to either shoot the messenger or to malign the word of God than to humble oneself, ask God for forgiveness and return to His word alone as the benchmark for spiritual truth.

 

Pride. Always goes before the fall.

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Grace :-)

[Grace 0]

After prayerfully considering my response to you, this is what I come up with

 

Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Do you consider the Bible the Word of God?

 

The balance of your statements and questions are moot if you question the veracity of Scripture

 

 

 

Seeking:

 

The reason Otkroveniya or any other pro-Spirit and Life Molokan MUST DOUBT THE BIBLE is because the alternative is unacceptable: that the S&L may be wrong....that Makcim may be a false prophet and that some Molokans have decided to ignore the history and the deception and just "keep playing church" as usual.

 

It is easier for them to either shoot the messenger or to malign the word of God than to humble oneself, ask God for forgiveness and return to His word alone as the benchmark for spiritual truth.

 

Pride. Always goes before the fall.

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Grace :-)

 

 

Okay.....I suddenly realized I misquoted Scripture! See, Otkroveniya, it is not so painful to admit a mistake........make it a regular habit and it gets easier and easier!

 

PROVERBS 16:18

 

"Pride goeth before DESTRUCTION and a haughty spirit before a FALL."

 

Either way...........this is NOT GOOD! Even the "prideful look" is an abomination to God -- He hates it.

 

Grace

[coffee 0]

.

 

For those who would like to read a thorough presentation of virtually all of the "errors, discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions" imaginable in the Bible, there are a couple of books written by C. Dennis McKinsey that focus attention entirely on this subject. One of them is entitled The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy. The other is entitled, Biblical Errancy: A Reference Guide.

 

Also, for any individual who is interested in what others have written in their attempt to discredit those who profess their faith as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, based on what is written in the Holy Scriptures as the authoritative Word of God, the internet offers many sources.

 

Simply enter into your search engine any of the key words, "errors, discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible", and there is listing after listing of individuals who have done extensive research on the subject. This includes discussions about what has been referred to in the above posts within this thread as "apparent contradictions", which are neither "new" nor "unique".

 

A website that is an excellent representation of this kind of mindset ("errors, discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible") is "http : // members . aol . com / ckbloomfld /". When entering the address into your browser search box, remember that there are no spaces between any of the characters, and that everything is to be entered in lower case letters.

 

Anyone who is a student of the Bible must admit that these types of accusations about "errors, discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible" present obvious challenges in being able to minister to those who are the skeptics, to those who scoff at the teachings of the Christian Church, specifically the conviction that what has been recorded in the Holy Scriptures is the definitive authority as the written Word of God. The common thread that runs through the belief system of every known pseudo-Christian cult, especially those that have their own "special writings, or special extra-Biblical "scriptures", including the religion of the Jumpers and Leapers, is that the Bible is not trustworthy as the ultimate authority for spiritual inspiration from God.

 

For those who are followers of Rudometkin, these types of accusations are crucial in their attempt to discredit the "absolutes" which make the Bible the authoritative written Word of God. In their attempt to justify their own heretical theology, the Rudometkinites seek to minimize the obvious contradictions between what Rudometkin wrote in the Spirit and Life book, versus what is written in the Bible, by drawing attention instead to the difficulties that are evident throughout the Scriptures, which McKinsey and others have devoted themselves to. In this way, Rudometkin's followers avoid addressing the issue of heresy, and they appease themselves with the excuse that just as there are difficulties in understanding everything which is written in the Scriptures, so it is with that which was written by their hero, king and spiritual leader in the Spirit and Life book.

 

.

[Guest newcomer]

For those who are followers of Rudometkin, these types of accusations are crucial in their attempt to discredit the "absolutes" which make the Bible the authoritative written Word of God. In their attempt to justify their own heretical theology, the Rudometkinites seek to minimize the obvious contradictions between what Rudometkin wrote in the Spirit and Life book, versus what is written in the Bible, by drawing attention instead to the difficulties that are evident throughout the Scriptures, which McKinsey and others have devoted themselves to. In this way, Rudometkin's followers avoid addressing the issue of heresy, and they appease themselves with the excuse that just as there are difficulties in understanding everything which is written in the Scriptures, so it is with that which was written by their hero, king and spiritual leader in the Spirit and Life book.

 

.

 

Why do all of you only attack and smear MGR? Why not the others that contributed to the collected writings in the book S&L?

[Guest Guest]

Why do all of you only attack and smear MGR? Why not the others that contributed to the collected writings in the book S&L?

DAVID YESSEYEVICH`S FALSE PROPHESY, THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT WILL BE COMPLETED DURING THE LIFETIME OF HIS FRIENDS AND CHILDREN; S&L pg.154 "Beloved contemporaries! I ask of you, for the sake of the merciful Lord Jesus Christ, consider what I have to say to you, that in your days and in your days of your children the judgment of God upon men will be completed." “

 

EFIM GERASIMOVICH KLUBNIKIN`S THE MILLENIUM IS TAKING PLACE NOW; ..S&L pg. 693 EGK; "The King of Spirits now reigns for a thousand years with Christ. Amen.

[Guest Guest_Otkroveniya22_*]

Before discussing any hypothesis that the Lord Jesus Christ supposedly "quoted" from the writings of the Apocrypha, a distinction needs to be made with regard to what constitutes a "quote".

 

Following are a couple of examples from the Bible where Jesus literally "quotes" from the Scriptures:

 

As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet,

 

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.

 

Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways,

 

and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'" (Luke 3:4-6)

Greetings Coffee- I would like to begin by pointing out what I perceive as a mistake on your part; In Luke chapter 3 it is not Jesus that does any quoting at all. Seems to me that it is the gospel writer Luke who does the quoting. Jesus does not appear on the scene in chapter 3 until verse 21. So no, Jesus does not literally quote scripture here. Perhaps you can clarify.

 

From the Bible:

 

This is he of whom it is written, "'Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.' (Matthew 11:10)

 

 

This "quote" from the Scriptures is found in the writings of the prophet Malachi:

 

Behold, I send my messenger and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. (Malachi

 

 

###Continuing on this subject about the voice in the wilderness and the messenger preparing the way, in Marks gospel you will find the following:

 

1The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

2As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

"BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,

WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;

3THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,

'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,

MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.'" [NASB]

 

###Here is an apparent misquote by the gospel writer Mark because the quote in verse 2 is from Malachi 3:1. Can you explain why Mark would mention explicitly from Isaiah yet immediately quote from Malachi?

 

The distinction is that whenever Christ actually "quoted" from the Scriptures, the Lord used the words, "It is written", or some other reference to the specific writings that He was referring to. There is no indication in any of the Biblical accounts of the life of Jesus that He ever "quoted" or even made reference to, as the written Word of God, any of the writings that are part of the Apocrypha. The same is true with the Apostles and the Disciples of Christ.

###So, based on the above criteria, for a quote or reference to be valid it must be said "It is written". Is the following verse by John the revelator a quote/reference, or not:

 

 

Revelations 1:7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen{NASB}

 

Historically speaking the following verses were written before Rev 1:7;

 

John 19:37And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.

Matthew 24:30 and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Zechariah 12:10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced;

 

###It seems odd to me that while John here is very specific concerning the words "pierced", "clouds" in his Revelation as found in the above passages, you discount this as not a bonafide quote by a disciple of Jesus. Rev 1:7 is very specific and detailed yet according to the above criteria of yours is not a quote/reference from John the Revelator.

 

This was the criteria that was used by the Holy Spirit, Who guided the early Church fathers to canonize the writings of the Holy Bible, and was part of the reason why the writings in the Apocrypha were eliminated from consideration as "God-breathed" Scripture.

 

Was this prophesy quote by Jude from the non cannonized book of Enoch "God-breathed"?

 

14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,

 

###My questions to you Coffee are the following: Were these words "God breathed" when Enoch spoke them, or when Jude wrote them, or perhaps when they were cannonized?

 

###Concerning the ECF, contrary to your assertion it seems to me that they did consider the Apocryphal writings as God breathed. Here is my evidence:

 

Irenaeus

"Those . . . who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts and do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt toward others and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat [Matt. 23:6] and work evil deeds in secret, saying ˜No man sees us,` shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance, nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words to be found in ***** the prophet: ˜O you seed of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust perverted your heart` [Dan. 13:56]. You that have grown old in wicked days, now your sins which you have committed before have come to light, for you have pronounced false judgments and have been accustomed to condemn the innocent and to let the guilty go free, although the Lord says, ˜You shall not slay the innocent and the righteous` [Dan. 13:52, citing Ex. 23:7]" (Against Heresies 4:26:3 [A.D. 189]; ***** 13 is not in the Protestant Bible).

 

The Letter of Barnabas

 

"Since, therefore, [Christ] was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, his suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against evil, ˜Woe to their soul, because they have counseled an evil counsel against themselves` [is. 3:9], saying, ˜Let us bind the righteous man because he is displeasing to us` [Wis. 2:12.]" (Letter of Barnabas 6:7 [A.D. 74]).

 

Council of Hippo

 

"[it has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical scriptures are

as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, and a portion of the Psalms], the twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, *****, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ." (Canon 36 [A.D. 393]).

 

Regards, RV22.

 

 

Mark 10: 17As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

 

19"You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'" [NASB]

[Guest Guest_Otkroveniya22_*]

Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Do you consider the Bible the Word of God?

Greetings Seeking: The answer to both of your questions is yes and yes.

 

The balance of your statements and questions are moot if you question the veracity of Scripture

 

Let me ask you this Seeking- Do you believe that the God breathed Bible[Pick your version]is without contradictions,misquotes, and innerrant? Can you reconcile these two passages for example from the King James Version? And is this "God Breathed" Bible innerrant and without contradictions?

 

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

Genesis 22:11 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here Iam

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Revelations 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: ˜Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.`"

"Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."[NKJV]

[Guest Guest_Otkroveniya22_*]

The Christian Church has never denied the fact that there are many "good things" that can be found in the writings of the Apocrypha, especially the wisdom that is written in the book of Ecclesiasticus (The Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach

Greetings Coffee- Not only has the Christian church not deny the good things found in the books,but actually regarded the Apocrypha as scripture. Feel free to correct me, but was it not actually Martin Luther who removed the Deutorocannonicals from the Bible?

 

To conclude that the Lord Jesus Christ allegedly "quoted" from the writings of the Apocrypha just because something found written in the Apocrypha is similar to words that were spoken by Jesus, as recorded in the Bible, especially when there is no specific reference made by Christ to suggest that "It is written" elsewhere

 

###Based on your assertion, then would some of the quotes by Jesus not be scripture if not found in the Old Testament?

The example that comes to mind would be this one:

 

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

 

is no different than the individual who assumes that every time there is mention in the Scriptures of "the one who conquers" (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 2:26, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 3:12, and Revelation 3:21) this is automatically somehow a specific reference which Jesus is purportedly making about M. G. Rudometkin, just because Rudometkin was deceived into making such an absurd and heretical claim in the Spirit and Life book.

###Coffee, if you turn to the S&L pg. 435 you find in verses 5&6 to page 436 verse 1 that MGR is not only referring to himself as "the one who conquers".

 

I remember when I was in college, a theory was presented in one of my classes that all religions, including the teachings of Jesus Christ, are basically the same, and as "proof", we were given some of the following "evidence":

 

1) You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. - (A teaching of Judaism, from the Old Testament of the Bible, Leviticus 19:18)

 

2) So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. - (A teaching of Christianity, from the New Testament of the Bible, Matthew 7:12)

 

3) Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself. (A teaching of Islam, from Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 13)

 

4) Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence. (A teaching of Confucianism, from Mencius VII.A.4)

 

5) Tsekung asked, "Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?" Confucius replied, "It is the word shu--reciprocity: Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you." (A teaching of Confucianism. Analects 15.23)

 

6) One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself. This is the essence of morality. All other activities are due to selfish desire. (A teaching of Hinduism, from Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva 113.8)

 

7) A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. (A teaching of Jainism, from Sutrakritanga 1.11.33)

 

###If you notice, all of the above religions except for Islam preceeded Christianity.As a result, the case can be made that Jesus "borrowed" from the others. The Golden Rule is a widespread principle in ancient ethical literature, including that of Judaism.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Acts 10:14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean."[ESV]

[seeking_truth_1 0]

I must have missed this reply

 

Not sure where you got the translation from Genesis, but the 3 versions I looked had nothing of the sort

 

"And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I." (Genesis 22:11 AV)

 

"But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am."" (Genesis 22:11 NKJV)

 

No contradiction here...

 

 

 

 

 

Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Do you consider the Bible the Word of God?

Greetings Seeking: The answer to both of your questions is yes and yes.

 

The balance of your statements and questions are moot if you question the veracity of Scripture

Let me ask you this Seeking- Do you believe that the God breathed Bible[Pick your version]is without contradictions,misquotes, and innerrant? Can you reconcile these two passages for example from the King James Version? And is this "God Breathed" Bible innerrant and without contradictions?

 

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

Genesis 22:11 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here Iam

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Revelations 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: ˜Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.`"

"Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."[NKJV]

[coffee 0]

.

 

Regarding Post #14 above:

 

So, based on the above criteria, for a quote or reference to be valid it must be said "It is written". Is the following verse by John the revelator a quote/reference, or not:

 

Revelations 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen (NASB)

 

It seems odd to me that while John here is very specific concerning the words "pierced", "clouds" in his Revelation as found in the above passages, you discount this as not a bonafide quote by a disciple of Jesus. Rev 1:7 is very specific and detailed yet according to the above criteria of yours is not a quote/reference from John the Revelator.

 

From the dictionary:

 

Quote - To speak or write a statement, with acknowledgment to something previously stated from another source.

 

To repeat a statement in substantiation or illustration, with reference to something previously stated from another source.

 

To inform a hearer or reader that something stated is a repetition from a previous source.

 

 

Whenever something is "quoted", the very nature of the "quote" requires the one who is doing the actual "quoting" to make a definite reference to that which has been stated previously. To suggest that something is a "quote", when the one making the statement does not identify it as such, is to make an assumption that cannot be validated.

 

An excellent example of this is the Scriptural passage from Luke 3:4-6, where Luke specifically "quotes" from a previous Scripture:

 

As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet,

 

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.

 

Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways,

 

and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'" (Luke 3:4-6)

 

 

Regarding:

 

Greetings Coffee - I would like to begin by pointing out what I perceive as a mistake on your part; In Luke chapter 3 it is not Jesus that does any quoting at all. Seems to me that it is the gospel writer Luke who does the quoting. Jesus does not appear on the scene in chapter 3 until verse 21. So no, Jesus does not literally quote scripture here. Perhaps you can clarify.

This IS a mistake on my part. These are NOT the words of Jesus. They are indeed the words of Luke, literally "quoting" from a previous passage that is recorded in the Scriptures.

 

When looking for a suitable illustration in my concordance, I selected the wrong reference. I should have instead chosen other Biblical passages, such as Mark 7:6-7, or Luke 20:17, or John 6:45, where Christ literally and specifically "quoted" from the Scriptures.

 

 

From Post # 7 above:

 

Seeking asked otkroveniya22:

 

Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Do you consider the Bible the Word of God?

 

 

The answer?

 

 

Greetings Seeking: The answer to both of your questions is yes and yes.

 

Apparently, this is to be understood that this Rudometkinite considers himself to be a "Christian", and believes that the Bible is the written Word of God.

 

The following is taken from the Molokani Narod forum, in the Which Tree Is It? thread, Post #6, which refers to a quote that was made by otkroveniya22 in the former Yahoo Molokan forum, which no longer exists:

 

Message 2739

 

From: "otkroveniya22"

 

Date: Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:00 am

 

Subject: To Grace- Meeting of elders

 

"I am making a point that the Holy Bible is flawed and erroneous, mistranslated and misunderstood, which has resulted in false belief, worship, theology, etc."

 

 

Message 2738

 

From: "otkroveniya22"

 

Date: Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:31 am

 

Subject: To Grace- Pro English everything.

 

 

"....the Holy Bible contains flaws."

 

 

The Rudometkinites do not accept the Bible as the ultimate, definitive authority, as the written Word of God. In order for them to justify Rudometkin's writings in the Spirit and Life book, which are central to their heretical belief system, the Rudometkinites are taught to be skeptical about what is written in the Holy Scriptures, especially that which testifies about our Creator God coming to earth in the human flesh of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

How is it if someone claims to be a "christian" yet denies the veracity of Scripture, isn't that shooting holes in your own boat?

 

It the Bible isn't accurate, then ANYTHING goes because, at that point, the one who picks and chooses what is "accurate" and what isn't "accurate" essentially becomes God

 

At that point, the "ANYTHING" can then take the form of

 

Racism

False messiahs

False extra books

False methods of Salvation

 

The religious leader during Jesus' time here on Earth knew His claims to be God in physical form and crucified Him

 

So I guess the Rudometkinite is attempting to do the same by denying Jesus and his Bible

 

It's horrible to thinks that if they die in that state they will spend an eternity in Hell

 

That's not my condemnation, rather it is what Scripture teaches

 

<<snip>>

 

 

The Rudometkinites do not accept the Bible as the ultimate, definitive authority, as the written Word of God. In order for them to justify Rudometkin's writings in the Spirit and Life book, which are central to their heretical belief system, the Rudometkinites are taught to be skeptical about what is written in the Holy Scriptures, especially that which testifies about our Creator God coming to earth in the human flesh of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

.

[anonymous 0]

 

Do you believe that the God breathed Bible[Pick your version]is without contradictions,misquotes, and innerrant? Can you reconcile these two passages for example from the King James Version? And is this "God Breathed" Bible innerrant and without contradictions?

 

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

Genesis 22:11 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here Iam

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Genesis 22:11 is a typo; otkroveniya meant Genesis 22:1 which in the King James translation reads:

 

"And it came to pass after these things, that GOD did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am." (The passage in the excerpt from otkroveniya's post above.)

 

In Hebrew, one of the original languages of the Old Testament (the other is Chaldee), the word for "tempt" in this text and context is nacah (naw-saw`) which means "to test, to assay, to prove, to tempt, to try."

 

Obviously, the Olde English translation employed the term tempt rather than test, assay, prove, or try. More contemporary English translations, however, employ the terms noted above as in the following examples:

 

"Now it came to pass after these things that GOD tested Abraham, and said to him, ˜Abraham!` And he said, ˜Here I am.`" (Genesis 22:1, New King James Version)

 

"Now it came about after these things, that GOD tested Abraham, and said to him, ˜Abraham!` And he said, ˜Here I am.`" (Genesis 22:1, The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible)

 

"After these things GOD tested Abraham and said to him, ˜Abraham!` And he said, ˜Here am I.`" (Genesis 22:1, English Standard Version)

 

"After these things GOD tested Abraham's faith. GOD said to him, ˜Abraham!` And he answered, ˜Here I am.`" (Genesis 22:1, New Century Version)

 

"And it came to pass after these things, that GOD did prove Abraham, and said unto him, ˜Abraham.` And he said, Here am I.`" (Genesis 22:1, American Standard Version)

 

Another Hebrew term used here is nissah which means to "put to the test."

 

Appropriate comparisons would be David`s testing of Saul`s armor (1 Samuel 17:39), for example, and the Queen of Sheba`s testing of Solomon`s wisdom (1 Kings 10:1). Another appropriate comparison is found in one of Apostle Paul`s epistles:

 

"But as we were allowed of GOD to be put in trust with THE GOSPEL, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but GOD, which trieth our hearts." (1 Thessalonians 2:4, King James Version)

 

"For our exhortation does not come from error or impurity or by way of deceit; but just as we have been approved by GOD to be entrusted with THE GOSPEL, so we speak, not as pleasing men but GOD, WHO tests our hearts." (1 Thessalonians 2:4, English Standard Version)

 

When we read the Genesis text for context (imperative principle in hermeneutics), we find that after Abraham made a covenant with Abimelech (Genesis 21:22-34), which is the "....after these things" referred to in Genesis 22:1, THE LORD GOD put Abraham to the test or "proved" or "tried" Abraham.

 

How?

 

The text itself, namely the next passage, tells us.

 

"And HE said, ˜Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you." (Genesis 22:2)

 

The offering/sacrifice of Isaac was "the test."

 

In all schooling there is testing to determine whether the material taught has been mastered. Testing is necessary and beneficial for the one being tested. He/she may think he/she is ready to graduate --- that he/she knows it all. Testing allows him/her to see what the real situation is. It confronts him/her with reality.

 

Man may reason that GOD knows what is in HIS creatures, what he/she is made of, hence, HE has no need to test them. The truth is, THE CREATOR does know --- it is the creature that doesn`t.

 

And otkroveniya is a prime example. The problem isn't with GOD'S WORD aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES; the problem is with otkroveniya's lack of understanding thus misunderstanding thus perversion of the term "tempt" in [this] context:

 

Tempt: To try to get (someone) to do wrong, especially by a promise of reward.

 

Those who know THE LORD GOD and HIS WORD, written and INCARNATE, know that HE will never place inducements before HIS creatures to lead them into temptation to do evil because GOD is absolute good and HIS ultimate objective is for the good of HIS creatures (Deuteronomy 8:16b) thus Genesis 22:1 and James 1:13 are completely compatible.

 

THE LORD GOD`S tests are different than the temptations of HIS adversary in that GOD tests whether HIS creatures act on/are obedient to HIS WORD, trusting HIM, whereas the devil/satan`s temptations provoke doubt and disobedience to GOD and HIS WORD (which otkroveniya has apparently succumbed to).

 

otkroveniya, like his s&l cohorts, obviously hasn`t considered the fact that it is he who is in error and an unbeliever, and rather than giving the "benefit of [his] doubt" to GOD`S WORD aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which is to give the "benefit of [his] doubt" to THE AUTHOR of HIS WORD.......THE LORD.......GOD, he foolishly attempts to discredit GOD`S WORD aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which is to discredit THE AUTHOR of HIS WORD.......THE LORD.......GOD.

 

"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of GOD; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these.

 

For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected as regards the faith. But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, as also that of those two came to be." (2 Timothy 3:1-9)

 

When will mgr`s faithful ones ever learn, oh when will they......ever learn?

 

 

[fourvetta 0]

Summing it all up, it is therefor safe to say that God does not test or prove anyone.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Thank you anonymous for your clarification as the mis-quote passage by otkroveniya 22 (Gen 22:1 vs Gen 22:11)

 

I figured that's what they had meant, but did not want to make that assumption

 

God does not tempt someone to sin, that is one of Satan's jobs

 

A phase I've heard used that "the devil made me do it" is an outright lie

 

"13 And remember, no one who wants to do wrong should ever say, "God is tempting me." God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else either.

14 Temptation comes from the lure of our own evil desires.

15 These evil desires lead to evil actions, and evil actions lead to death.

16 So don`t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters." (James 1:13-16 NLT)

 

"But remember that the temptations that come into your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will keep the temptation from becoming so strong that you can`t stand up against it. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you will not give in to it." (1Corinthians 10:13 NLT)

 

"Every word of God proves true. He defends all who come to him for protection." (Proverbs 30:5 NLT)

 

If otkroveniya 22 was a student of Scripture they would know this

[lastinline 0]

Summing it all up, it is therefor safe to say that God does not test or prove anyone.

 

Since I have a sincere belief that YOU believe that YOU, YOURSELF are the incarnate messiah (mgr), so are you then making a statement of FAITH and/or FACT?

 

To All: When ANYONE denies WHO JESUS really is, do they not crucify Christ anew? And, make HIM a lier?

 

Acts 4:10 Let me clearly state to you and to all the people of Israel that he was healed in the name and power of Jesus Christ from Nazareth, the man you crucified, but whom God raised from the dead.

Act 4:11 For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says, `The stone that you builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.

Act 4:12 There is salvation in no one else! There is no other name in all of heaven for people to call on to save them."

NLT

 

lastinline (where am I wrong?)

Edited October 22, 2007 by lastinline

[Guest Guest_Otkroveniya22_*]

Whenever something is "quoted", the very nature of the "quote" requires the one who is doing the actual "quoting" to make a definite reference to that which has been stated previously. To suggest that something is a "quote", when the one making the statement does not identify it as such, is to make an assumption that cannot be validated.

Greetings Coffee- Then according to your above criteria, in addition to Rev 1:7, the following would not be a direct quote from Jesus-

 

Mark 15:34 At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"[NASB]]

 

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?

Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning[NASB]

 

####Coffee- this is just a coincidence that Jesus happens to say the same words as Psalm 22:1a, isn't it?

 

The following is not a quote either of the Gospel writer Mark to Joel according to your criteria:

 

Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.[ESV]

 

Joel 2:10 The earth quakes before them,

The heavens tremble;

The sun and moon grow dark,

And the stars diminish their brightness[ESV]

 

.....Nor is the following a quote either-

 

Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire” 48 where

 

 

˜ Their worm does not die

And the fire is not quenched[NKJV]

 

Isaiah 66:24 " And they shall go forth and look

Upon the corpses of the men

Who have transgressed against Me.

For their worm does not die,

And their fire is not quenched.

They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." [NKJV]

 

.......Nor the following-

 

 

 

Matthew 21:9 The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted,

"Hosanna to the Son of David!"

"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"

"Hosanna in the highest!"

 

Psalms 118:26a Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.

 

"I am making a point that the Holy Bible is flawed and erroneous, mistranslated and misunderstood, which has resulted in false belief, worship, theology, etc."

 

###This is correct, and here is some of the evidence:

 

Acts 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

 

Now, correct me but it appears that the KJV was the standard English language Bible till 1885 according to the following:

 

"The English Standard Version (ESV) stands in the classic mainstream of English Bible translations over the past half-millennium. The fountainhead of that stream was William Tyndale's New Testament of 1526; marking its course were the King James Version of 1611 (KJV), the English Revised Version of 1885 (RV), the American Standard Version of 1901 (ASV), and the Revised Standard Version of 1952 and 1971 (RSV)."

 

For about 274 years people believed that celebrating Easter was Biblical. How many people celebrated Easter? Millions perhaps?

What better justification for celebrating the pagan/Christian blended "Holy day" than the Acts verse in the Holy Bible?

 

Or how about the belief in the existence of the mythological characters of satyrs and unicorns? Because the Holy Bible said so.

 

Psalm 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.

 

Isaiah 13:21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

 

 

1 Thess. 5:26 Greet all the brothers and sisters with Christian love.[NLT] (What happened to the Holy Kiss?)

 

 

The Rudometkinites do not accept the Bible as the ultimate, definitive authority, as the written Word of God.

###Coffee- Which Holy Bible would you like for me to accept as the ultimate, definitive, as the written Word of God, without error, mistranslations, contradiction, flaws? Perhaps the NLT? Or maybe the KJV or it's many revisions?

 

the Rudometkinites are taught to be skeptical about what is written in the Holy Scriptures, especially that which testifies about our Creator God coming to earth in the human flesh of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

###Do you accept the core tenets of the trinity doctrine formulated at the first ecumenical council in 325 AD in Nicea? Of which included are- Jesus is equal to God, The Son is is equal to the father, the Father did not pre-exist the Son?

 

John 14:28 Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am[NLT]

 

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. [KJV]

 

### Semeon Uklein, who was one the primary founders of the Molokans,. had this to say concerning the Trinity doctrine tenet of the Son's equality with the Father:

 

"About the feature of the Holy Trinity...The Son of God and the holy Spirit, although consubstantial with the Father, they are not equal with Him in the Divine dignity."[pg.48, D.S. translation of Feodor Livanov]

 

###Correct me Coffee, but according to your statements you: 1. Reject the S&L 2. Reject the Apocrypha as inspired scripture. 3. Accept the Trinity Doctrine. This would make you a non-Molokan. Am I correct?

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Luke 17:7 "Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'?

 

8"But will he not say to him, '(J)Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'?

 

9"He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?

 

10"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'[NASB]

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Again introducing someone else's assertions as your own ?

 

You little quote was taken from a website and that does not establish it as fact

 

The flaw in the statement is that the the other translations are in step with the KJV especially the RSV

 

It clear to anyone that the RSV does not belong in this list

 

The RSV version adds in the Apocrypha as a part of it's contents and was trans-obliterated by the National Council of Churches

 

As cited before the National Council of Churches IS NOT Bible centered in their views but far from it

 

They are allowing

 

1) Women pastors

2) Alternate lifestyles

3) Other non-Christian religions (Muslim, Buddism etc...) are viewed as "a way"

4) Gaia (Earth worship)

 

They too, like otkroveniya 22, have views that are far from Biblical

 

mgr affirmed Muslims and cited them being in Heaven too

 

Therefore, I would not look to the RSV as a valid translation seeing as it authors ARE NOT Bible based Christians

 

Again otkroveniya 22, why are you citing the Bible?

 

You don't believe it to be accurate, so WHY BOTHER?

 

 

Actually I know the answer to that...

 

If you are able to deny Jesus as God and the ONLY WAY, the Bible as accurate and affirm false religions/teaching then you can make up your own religion

 

It seems you, like your god mgr, have done just that

 

To everyone else, do your research

 

http://www.ncccusa.org/

 

Any Bible based Christian would run away from this group and certainly not affirm their flawed doctrine

 

 

 

 

 

<<snip>>

 

Now, correct me but it appears that the KJV was the standard English language Bible till 1885 according to the following:

 

"The English Standard Version (ESV) stands in the classic mainstream of English Bible translations over the past half-millennium. The fountainhead of that stream was William Tyndale's New Testament of 1526; marking its course were the King James Version of 1611 (KJV), the English Revised Version of 1885 (RV), the American Standard Version of 1901 (ASV), and the Revised Standard Version of 1952 and 1971 (RSV)."

[seeking_truth_1 0]

By the way pay close attention to the Interfaith Relations Commission within the NCC

 

http://www.ncccusa.org/interfaith/ifrhome.html

 

Sound like mgr would love this group because they too affirm the Muslim religion as a "way"

[Guest Guest_Otkroveniya22_*]

Genesis 22:11 is a typo; otkroveniya meant Genesis 22:1 which in the King James translation reads:

Greetings Anonymous- Gen 22:1 was my intention.

 

Obviously, the Olde English translation employed the term tempt rather than test, assay, prove, or try. More contemporary English translations, however, employ the terms noted above as in the following examples:

 

###However, the terms assay, prove, and try are in fact all employed in this translation and here are some examples all using the same 'nacah'...

 

Job 4: 2If we assay to commune with thee, wilt thou be grieved? but who can withhold himself from speaking?

Exodus 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

2 Chronicles 32:31 Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to enquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart.

 

###So the KJV translators had ample opportunity to use these words but chose tempt instead which shows as an erroneous innacurracy in translation.

 

In all schooling there is testing to determine whether the material taught has been mastered. Testing is necessary and beneficial for the one being tested. He/she may think he/she is ready to graduate --- that he/she knows it all. Testing allows him/her to see what the real situation is. It confronts him/her with reality.

###Anonymous; if this is an attempt to some how connect with Abraham's situation it is quite weak as an analogy if at all. Furthermore, Abraham did not regard slaughtering Isaac as the "graduation test". Non-sequitor.

 

And otkroveniya is a prime example. The problem isn't with GOD'S WORD aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES; the problem is with otkroveniya's lack of understanding thus misunderstanding thus perversion of the term "tempt" in [this] context:

Tempt: To try to get (someone) to do wrong, especially by a promise of reward.

 

###Is not slaughtering your own daughter wrong, Anonymous? Or is it righteous? In the KJV it was a provocation to do wrong hence, a temptation.

 

Those who know THE LORD GOD and HIS WORD, written and INCARNATE, know that HE will never place inducements before HIS creatures to lead them into temptation to do evil because GOD is absolute good and HIS ultimate objective is for the good of HIS creatures (Deuteronomy 8:16b) thus Genesis 22:1 and James 1:13 are completely compatible.

###Apparently, you are not aware of the following passage

 

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. [KJV]

1Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel[NASB]

1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel[NIV]

 

###Here it is shown the intent is to do evil with satan leading the temptation. I do not believe Satan's intentions are good here. Where was God during this moment? Actually, God was in collussion with Satan in inciting David to take the census. Observe the following:

 

2 Samuel 24:21 Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

 

###Anonymous- Here you have two accounts of the same occurrence in 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles. Here are the questions for you:

1. Was it God or Satan or both who incited/provoked/moved David to take the census?

2. If it was God, then the Chronicler was in error; If Satan, then the 2 Samuel writer was in error...Who was in error?

 

 

###If God is absolute good and His ultimate objective is for the good of His creatures, then where was His help in changing the wicked ways of His creatures in the following text? You will find they had no chance or opportunity to repent. Or is this God's way of providing his creatures with his ultimate objective?

 

Genesis 6:1 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."[NKJV]

 

THE LORD GOD`S tests are different than the temptations of HIS adversary in that GOD tests whether HIS creatures act on/are obedient to HIS WORD, trusting HIM, whereas the devil/satan`s temptations provoke doubt and disobedience to GOD and HIS WORD (which otkroveniya has apparently succumbed to).

 

###Anonymous- Would I be disobedient to God if I would not fullfill the command to slaughter my son ?

 

otkroveniya, like his s&l cohorts, obviously hasn`t considered the fact that it is he who is in error and an unbeliever, and rather than giving the "benefit of [his]doubt" to GOD`S WORD aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which is to give the "benefit of [his] doubt" to THE AUTHOR of HIS WORD.......THE LORD

 

###You expect me to give the benefit of doubt to the mistranslations, errors, innaccurracies, and ommissions/additions of God's Holy Bible[Pick your version] yet simultaneously you do not afford the same benefit of doubt applied to the perceived difficulties in the S&L?

 

, he foolishly attempts to discredit GOD`S WORD aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which is to discredit THE AUTHOR of HIS WORD.......THE LORD.......GOD.

 

###When you finish your posturing and hand wringing, how about addressing the following Scriptural contradictions and errors:

 

Exodus 20:16 Do not give false testimony against your neighbor.

Psalm 101:I will not allow deceivers to serve in my house,

and liars will not stay in my presence

 

1 Kings 22:22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.

" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.

" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

 

23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

-------------------------------------

 

###Anonymous- Do rabbits and hares chew cud?

 

Leviticus 11: 5And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 6And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you.[ESV]

 

Levicus 11:6 the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; [NASB]

 

According to Wikipedia;

 

Rabbits are herbivores who feed by grazing on grass, forbs, and leafy weeds. In addition, their diet contains large amounts of cellulose, which is hard to digest. Rabbits solve this problem by passing two distinctive types of feces: hard droppings and soft black viscous pellets, the latter of which are immediately eaten. Rabbits reingest their own droppings (rather than chewing the cud as do cows and many other herbivores) in order to fully digest their food and extract sufficient nutrients.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

"Tobit 7:10-12, And taking her by the hand he gave her to Tobias to be his wife."

 

Tenet #17 Molokans of Kherson

[Pg. 94 D.S. translation of F. Livanov]

[Guest Guest_otkroveniya22_*]

Greetings Anonymous- some correction; The Genesis quote is supposed to be Gen 6:5 and not Gen 6:1.

"Levicus" is supposed to be Leviticus.

 

Greetings Seeking- Regarding your post #19

 

How is it if someone claims to be a "christian" yet denies the veracity of Scripture, isn't that shooting holes in your own boat?

###Does one need to accept Acts 12:4[Easter] in the KJV to be a "christian"? Does one need to accept the existence of satyrs[isaiah 13:21, Isaiah 34:14] and unicorns[isaiah 34:7] to be a "christian"? Does one need to accept bats being birds [Leviticus 11:19] or rabbits that chew cud [Leviticus 11:5] to be a "christian"?

 

It the Bible isn't accurate, then ANYTHING goes because, at that point, the one who picks and chooses what is "accurate" and what isn't "accurate" essentially becomes God

 

Seeking, the question to you... Is the following accurate?.............

 

Romans 16:16 Greet each other in Christian love. All the churches of Christ send you their greetings.[NLT]

1 Corinthians 16:20 All the brothers and sisters here send greetings to you. Greet each other with Christian love.[NLT]

1 Peter 3:20 Only a few people”eight in all”were saved by water.21 And that water is like baptism that now saves you[NCV]

ACTS 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. [KJV]

 

So I guess the Rudometkinite is attempting to do the same by denying Jesus and his Bible

###I did not know Jesus has a Bible. What version is it? Possibly the Little Juan Burrito Version[LJBV]?

Is rejecting the following Bible passages [for being erroneous and inaccurate] attempting to deny Jesus?....

 

Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims[Grammar]: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. [KJV]

Leviticus 11:13,19 "These are the birds that are detestable to you. You must never eat them: the griffon vulture, the bearded vulture, the black vulture,.......... the stork, herons of all kinds, the hoopoe, and the bat.[NLT]

 

According to Wikipedia concerning bats-

 

A bat is a mammal in the order Chiroptera. Their most distinguishing feature is that their forelimbs are developed as wings, making them the only mammals in the world naturally capable of flight (though other mammals, such as flying squirrels and gliding flying possums, can glide for limited distances.......Mother bats usually have only one offspring per year, and they are viviparous. A baby bat is referred to as a pup. Pups are usually left in the roost when they are not nursing.

 

###Seeking- If bats are birds as the Holy Bible says, then where are the feathers, eggs, beaks, etc.?

 

Regarding your post #22

 

A phase I've heard used that "the devil made me do it" is an outright lie

 

The following Scripture passages negates and contradicts your assertion:

 

John 13:27 When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, "Hurry and do what you`re going to do."[NLT]

1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and caused David to take a census of the people of Israel.[NLT]

 

Regards, RV22.

 

"Wisdom 13:10, With their hopes set on dead things are the men who give the name gods to the works of men's hands, gold and silver fashioned with skill, and likenesses animals, or a useless stone, the work of an ancient hand."

 

Excerpt from tenet #5 Molokans of Kherson- Pg. 96 D.S. translation of F. Livanov.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

I see you are continuing to shoot holes into your boat...

 

It's obvious you are looking to discredit Biblical Christianity to allow room for your "god"

 

More so, it's also quite obvious you are not a student of the Bible

 

Lets address a couple of your "points" in and amongst your flurry of confusion and misunderstanding

 

First you will need to look at the Greek to get the best translation of the Word for the NT reference in Acts 12:4

 

πασχα pascha pas`-khah not Easter referring to the Passover held yearly

 

In the prophetic context of Isaiah 13:21 there is a list of animals being referenced that are occupying the region that was made desolate

 

From the Hebrew it's a goat...Possibly a demon possessed goat but none the less, a goat

 

In Leviticus 11:5 it's translated coney - It's a rock badger

 

There's one thing I've noticed, you switch translations to try and make your feeble point.. Why is that?

 

Are you more interested in defending your position than in basic Biblical truth?

 

As to the rest of your attempts, I'll not address because they all end up the same way...debunked

 

 

Greetings Anonymous- some correction; The Genesis quote is supposed to be Gen 6:5 and not Gen 6:1.

"Levicus" is supposed to be Leviticus.

 

Greetings Seeking- Regarding your post #19

 

How is it if someone claims to be a "christian" yet denies the veracity of Scripture, isn't that shooting holes in your own boat?

###Does one need to accept Acts 12:4[Easter] in the KJV to be a "christian"? Does one need to accept the existence of satyrs[isaiah 13:21, Isaiah 34:14] and unicorns[isaiah 34:7] to be a "christian"? Does one need to accept bats being birds [Leviticus 11:19] or rabbits that chew cud [Leviticus 11:5] to be a "christian"?

 

It the Bible isn't accurate, then ANYTHING goes because, at that point, the one who picks and chooses what is "accurate" and what isn't "accurate" essentially becomes God

Seeking, the question to you... Is the following accurate?.............

 

Romans 16:16 Greet each other in Christian love. All the churches of Christ send you their greetings.[NLT]

1 Corinthians 16:20 All the brothers and sisters here send greetings to you. Greet each other with Christian love.[NLT]

1 Peter 3:20 Only a few people”eight in all”were saved by water.21 And that water is like baptism that now saves you[NCV]

ACTS 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. [KJV]

 

So I guess the Rudometkinite is attempting to do the same by denying Jesus and his Bible

###I did not know Jesus has a Bible. What version is it? Possibly the Little Juan Burrito Version[LJBV]?

Is rejecting the following Bible passages [for being erroneous and inaccurate] attempting to deny Jesus?....

 

Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims[Grammar]: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. [KJV]

Leviticus 11:13,19 "These are the birds that are detestable to you. You must never eat them: the griffon vulture, the bearded vulture, the black vulture,.......... the stork, herons of all kinds, the hoopoe, and the bat.[NLT]

 

According to Wikipedia concerning bats-

 

A bat is a mammal in the order Chiroptera. Their most distinguishing feature is that their forelimbs are developed as wings, making them the only mammals in the world naturally capable of flight (though other mammals, such as flying squirrels and gliding flying possums, can glide for limited distances.......Mother bats usually have only one offspring per year, and they are viviparous. A baby bat is referred to as a pup. Pups are usually left in the roost when they are not nursing.

 

###Seeking- If bats are birds as the Holy Bible says, then where are the feathers, eggs, beaks, etc.?

 

Regarding your post #22

 

A phase I've heard used that "the devil made me do it" is an outright lie

The following Scripture passages negates and contradicts your assertion:

 

John 13:27 When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, "Hurry and do what you`re going to do."[NLT]

1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and caused David to take a census of the people of Israel.[NLT]

 

Regards, RV22.

 

"Wisdom 13:10, With their hopes set on dead things are the men who give the name gods to the works of men's hands, gold and silver fashioned with skill, and likenesses animals, or a useless stone, the work of an ancient hand."

 

Excerpt from tenet #5 Molokans of Kherson- Pg. 96 D.S. translation of F. Livanov.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

I should have qualified for the Christian...

 

Judas was not a Christian when he sold Jesus out because Judas was possessed

 

<<snip>>

 

Regarding your post #22

 

A phase I've heard used that "the devil made me do it" is an outright lie

 

The following Scripture passages negates and contradicts your assertion:

 

John 13:27 When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, "Hurry and do what you`re going to do."[NLT]

 

Regards, RV22.

[coffee 0]

.

 

Regarding:

 

Greetings Coffee- Then according to your above criteria, in addition to Rev 1:7, the following would not be a direct quote from Jesus-

 

Mark 15:34 At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"[NASB]]

 

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?

Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning[NASB]

 

Coffee- this is just a coincidence that Jesus happens to say the same words as Psalm 22:1a, isn't it?

 

 

To put this into perspective, in order to follow the thought process here, the above response is in defense of the attempt to establish some sort of credibility for the assumption on the part of the Rudometkinite to believe that somewhere in the recorded Scriptures, Jesus purportedly "quoted" from the writings of the Apocrypha.

 

It has been well established that with regard to the context of the term "quote", by the very definition of the word, there are no examples found anywhere in the Bible where the Lord Jesus Christ supposedly "quotes" or even makes reference in any way, to anything that is found written in the Apocrypha.

 

Just because similar words, or phrases and sentences, are found in two or more separate passages of literature, does not mean that one is a direct "quote" of another, especially when there is no preface to indicate that one excerpt is being stated as a "quotation" of something that is found written elsewhere. This is equally as true when it applies to that which is written even in the Scriptures.

 

When Psalm 22 was written, King David expressed himself to the Lord with words pertinent to the current situation which he found himself in at the time. These words were to be recognized later as prophetic statements that became fulfilled when Christ was crucified, but when King David wrote Psalm 22, his mind was preoccupied with his own personal circumstances at the time, not about a future day when his Lord would be crucified.

 

The words that Jesus cried out while he was dying on the cross, as recorded in Mark 15:34, were expressed to convey His own personal grief at the time, and were not a reference in any way to the words which David had used in his own lament to the Lord, as found previously in Psalm 22:1.

 

Let us consider what the Rudometkinite is attempting to build his case with:

 

1) After being brutally flogged and beaten,

 

2) After having spikes driven into His wrists and feet,

 

3) After hanging on a cross to the point of death,

 

Jesus, moments away from death, literally struggling to breathe, without any indication or preface in His dying words, He supposedly then and there decided to "quote" from Psalm 22:1, with the expectation that His audience, those who were observing His crucifixion, could then say that Christ's dying words were purposefully and strategically stated with specific reference to an Old Testament Scripture that King David had written centuries earlier.

 

To make such a conclusion is to assume something based solely on one's desire to believe it.

 

The REAL issue at hand, however, has nothing to do with what constitutes a "quote". The REAL issue in all of this has nothing to do with any of the various Biblical passages that have been mentioned, which have all been presented with the implication that the Holy Scriptures are supposedly "unreliable" as the written Word of God.

 

The underlying issue here is the very real chasm that differentiates between the spiritual profile of the Rudometkinite on one side, versus the spiritual profile of the Bible-based Molokan Christian on the other.

 

The Rudometkinites do not consider the Bible-based Molokan Christians as fellow "brothers and sisters".

 

Message 2691 in the old Yahoo forum:

 

From: fourvetta

 

Date: Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:55 am

 

Subject: Re: Otkroveniya/Fourvetta

 

Nobody is asking you to be a member of the woman clothed in the sun (meaning followers of Rudometkin). You made that decision yourself.

 

I don't consider you or your kind, fellow believers.

 

As I have said before, the Molokan people have to make a decision, as to following the Spirit of Truth (meaning following Rudometkin and his writings in the Spirit and Life book) or the spirit of falsivity.

 

Take the S&L off the prestol if you don't want to follow it or believe in it. That way there, us that do believe won't go there.

 

Make it happen quickly and be done with it.

 

(Post #6, Molokani Narod Forum, Which Tree is it? thread)

 

 

This is a very real sentiment that exists within our Molokan brotherhood among the Rudometkinites, and is not "unique" to fourvetta and his younger contemporaries, as if it is something that has suddenly developed among the newer generation of Rudometkinites only, in recent history only.

 

This is the same mentality that fourvetta's Rudometkinite elders and predecessors have always had, and has been handed down from generation to generation of each successive crop of Rudometkinites, ever since Russia.

 

This is the same theological position that is taken by every Rudometkinite today, against every Bible-based Molokan Christian who does not accept the heresies that are found throughout the Spirit and Life book.

 

After I became a Christian, when my wife and I were more involved in the Molokan brotherhood, I always thought this was so "wacko", that individuals from two opposing theological belief systems could still be "fulfilled" somehow, by gathering together for "Church", with the Bible-based Christians "tolerating" the heresy of the Rudometkinites in the Spirit and Life book, and the Rudometkinites "tolerating" the Bible-based Christians for being so devoted to Jesus.

 

It is quite obvious that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, as well as belief in what is written in the Bible, is NOT the "common bond" which holds the two sides together. We see this by comparing what the Rudometkinites believe, according to what is found in their sacred writings, the Spirit and Life book, versus what the Christians believe, based solely on what is written in the Bible.

 

Even today, with an obvious contrast in belief systems, individuals from both sides still seek to coexist together within a "Church" atmosphere somehow, in an attempt to maintain some semblance of fellowship that is part of the socio-religious environment known as "the Molokan brotherhood".

 

What continues to exist in this scenario is that even though both sides most definitely do not share the same core belief system, they DO agree to stand united when it comes to the preservation of our "Molokan" identity, and the perpetuation of our ethnic heritage, which includes the upholding of Old Testament food laws and annual Holy Day observances, as well as providing opportunity for the ultimate goal of "jumping in the spirit" together, whenever they gather to have "Church".

 

What has been thoroughly demonstrated is that the Rudometkinites like to use the designation of "Christian" to identify themselves, and are adamant in their insistence that they are "Molokans", BUT they believe the following:

 

"I am making a point that the Holy Bible is flawed and erroneous, mistranslated and misunderstood, which has resulted in false belief, worship, theology, etc." - otkroveniya 22

 

These people, who believe that what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures is "erroneous", who believe that the Bible is responsible for leading people astray, to the point of false belief, false worship and false theology, are the same individuals who require that the writings in the Spirit and Life book be accepted as sacred scripture, demanding in the process that Rudometkin and his heretical ramblings be included as part of their worship of God.

 

These are the same people who "jump in the spirit" extra enthusiastically to songs that are sung in church, which give recognition and exaltation to Rudometkin as "king of spirits".

 

These individuals are the ones in church who participate in "the activity of the spirit", which is a direct by-product of the new spirit and the new pathway that Rudometkin introduced to his followers, as described by Rudometkin himself in the Spirit and Life book:

 

Here I (Rudometkin), the new Youlia-Yar, am telling you then all that was bestowed upon me to reveal to you about myself and my new spirit, which every minute teaches me that I must blaze for you a new pathway to Paradise.

 

(Spirit and Life book, Page 326, Book 5, Article 20, Introduction)

 

 

Be attentive to all of these new words, spoken in pronouncement here to you about what is soon everywhere coming to be, and which today, actually from the age here on earth, the eyes of the buzzard have not seen, and which, from eternity, the deaf ear of the viper has nowhere heard, and likewise, every sinistral man together with them.

 

Except for only me alone, your leader, by the revelation of My God, I came to know these [new words] clearly, in the spirit, in my nightly visions, as if looking at my own face in a mirror.

 

That is why I wish to personally reveal all of this to you, the New Israel, in these detailed lines, and show all of you the true new path of the King My God, and the eternal procession upon it.

 

(Page 508, Book 10, Article 18, Verses 1-3)

 

 

Consider what the Rudometkinites believe, according to the above excerpts from their sacred writings, the Spirit and Life book, which they insist be placed on the altars in church, as part of their worship of God:

 

1) The new spirit that Rudometkin introduced to his followers is different than the Holy Spirit.

 

2) The new pathway that Rudometkin blazed for his followers is different from the "pathway" that is defined in the Bible, which has been established by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

 

3) According to Rudometkin, not even Jesus Christ has ever heard the new words that Rudometkin introduced to his followers. Only Rudometkin alone purportedly had knowledge of these words about what is soon everywhere coming to be, prior to his death in Russia.

 

4) According to Rudometkin, the new pathway that Rudometkin introduced to his followers is supposedly the true new path, which is different than the "path" to God the Father that was established by the Lord Jesus Christ, according to what is recorded in the Bible.

 

 

 

This is hardly just some "perceived difficulty". This is what is written in the Spirit and Life book, which lies next to the Bible on the altars in every Jumper Molokan church today.

 

Is this what the people in our Molokan churches today REALLY believe? Is this REALLY what we want our future Molokan generations to be taught?

 

If the answer is "Yes", then let the elders be forthright and say so, openly, so that there is no confusion or question that the leaders of our Molokan churches today believe in a separate new spirit, in addition to and other than the Biblical Holy Spirit, and a new pathway, in addition to and other than that which was established by the Lord Jesus Christ, as is found recorded in the Holy Scriptures.

 

If the answer is "No", then let the elders remove that heresy off of the altars in the churches, so that there is no confusion or question that our Molokan people are indeed followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, based solely on what is written in the Bible.

 

Those who seek to defend and preserve their "ideal" of a unified, socio-religious "Molokan brotherhood", including the Rudometkinites themselves, continue to ignore the core issue, carrying on as if what is written in the Spirit and Life book does not truly exist.

 

 

 

From Rudometkin, in the Spirit and Life book:

 

Page 352, ARTICLE 17

 

The Third Discourse

 

....Let each heed - those that have ears - and with them, listen well to that which my new spirit evangelizes in new fiery tongues, to all of you, regarding the promised peace for a thousand years. Amen.

 

Welcome, every companion of Mine! Now seat yourself here by My side and we shall talk thoroughly, you and I, of the secret of our God and His Lamb.

 

For this you will be rewarded by me with eternal life, and the Kingdom of peace of our Lord Jesus Christ, upon this good land for a thousand years,

 

Moreover, you will truly be given all of this from me, if only you justly fulfill my will in the Spirit.

 

Then I, the New Yoolia, will congratulate you with the rank of the inheritance of all the thrones of the new land in Israel, and therein I will give you a new name.

 

Therefore, heed this, each one of you today; look boldly upon me....and always be prepared for me, your vigilant master.

 

Meanwhile I, first of all, will clothe myself in garments of scarlet, then I shall place a crown of gold upon my head....and then truly will be called by a new name, which the Lord Himself shall give Me....

 

(Rudometkin, Book 6, Article 17, Verses 1-13)

 

 

 

 

What Rudometkin has written about "rewarding" his followers with eternal life is perhaps the most blatant of heresies that are found in the Spirit and Life book, and is probably the most openly blasphemous contradiction to what is recorded in the Bible.

 

It is written in the Scriptures that there is only ONE savior Who gives eternal life, and that person is the Lord Jesus Christ:

 

Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on Him God the Father has set His seal. (John 6:27)

 

 

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

 

I and the Father are one. (John 10:27-30)

 

 

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,

 

since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

 

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:1-3)

 

 

 

 

For the Rudometkinite, the Holy Scriptures are "erroneous". To the Rudometkinites, what is recorded in the Bible is "flawed", but in contrast, the Spirit and Life book supposedly contains the "message of truth" from Rudometkin's new spirit.

 

Rudometkin himself reminded his followers that the writings in the Spirit and Life book represent a new pathway to God:

 

....from the age here on earth, the eyes of the buzzard have not seen, and which, from eternity, the deaf ear of the viper has nowhere heard, and likewise, every sinistral man together with them.

 

Except for only me alone, your leader, by the revelation of My God, I came to know these [new words] clearly, in the spirit, in my nightly visions, as if looking at my own face in a mirror.

 

That is why I wish to personally reveal all of this to you, the New Israel, in these detailed lines, and show all of you the true new path of the King My God, and the eternal procession upon it.

 

 

 

The subject of Rudometkin's "spiritual" revelations that are found in the Spirit and Life book, and the fact that they are clear contradictions to what is written in the Bible, is one of the crucial issues facing today's "Molokan", as it relates to the future for our "Molokan brotherhood".

 

Another core issue, equally important to being able to even HAVE a future "Molokan" community, is the subject of the true identity of the Lord Jesus Christ, and how He "fits" into the belief system of our current and future "Molokan" churches.

 

All of this other is just noise.

 

.

[Guest Guest_otkroveniya22_*]

Greetings Coffee: Regarding your post #31

 

When Psalm 22 was written, King David expressed himself to the Lord with words pertinent to the current situation which he found himself in at the time. These words were to be recognized later as prophetic statements that became fulfilled when Christ was crucified, but when King David wrote Psalm 22, his mind was preoccupied with his own personal circumstances at the time, not about a future day when his Lord would be crucified.

### Your argument here is weak because the issue is not whether David was thinking about the Lord in the future but Christ quoting Psalm 22. Following your line of thinking, we can also say the prophet Isaiah was not preoccuped with the Lord in the future either when he utters Isaiah 53 which concerns Isreal as the suffering servant. We can also say Isaiah 7:14 is a prophesy fullfilled in the future king Hezekiah.

 

The words that Jesus cried out while he was dying on the cross, as recorded in Mark 15:34, were expressed to convey His own personal grief at the time, and were not a reference in any way to the words which David had used in his own lament to the Lord, as found previously in Psalm 22:1.

###Despite the fact that Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 word for word. Your ignorance is telling. Not only was Jesus grieving but

fullfilling prophesy. Here are some more direct quotes from Jesus regardless of your narrow criteria which the NKJV translators do not hold to. You will notice that the text in the Gospel of Luke is in QUOTATION form and in ITALICS in the following verses:

 

Luke 13:35 I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ˜Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!`

 

Psalm 118:26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD!

We have blessed you from the house of the LORD.

 

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, ˜into Your hands I commit My spirit.`

Psalm 31:5 Into Your hand I commit my spirit;

You have redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

###The above verses are also quoted in the NASB

 

###Here is another direct quote:

Luke 13: 27 But He will say, ˜I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.`

Psalm 6:8 Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity;

For the LORD has heard the voice of my weeping.

 

 

###So, yes Coffee you will find direct quotes of Jesus from the Old Testament despite your hand waving and denials, and without adhering to your criteria. In addition, the following is in quotation form in the NKJV as well as the NIV and NASB;

 

Luke 23:30 Then they will begin ˜to say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!"`

 

Hosea 10:8 Also the high places of Aven, the sin of Israel,

Shall be destroyed.

The thorn and thistle shall grow on their altars;

They shall say to the mountains, "Cover us!"

And to the hills, "Fall on us!" [NKJV]

 

###As a side note, perhaps you noticed possibly, Coffee, the above is misquoted. You will find the same misquote in the following versions: NEB, KJV, NLT, NASB, NIV. My questions to you concerning the above misquotes are the following; was Jesus in error for the misquote? Was the Gospel writer Luke in error? Or was the prophet Hosea in error?

 

Let us consider what the Rudometkinite is attempting to build his case with:

 

1) After being brutally flogged and beaten,

 

2) After having spikes driven into His wrists and feet,

 

3) After hanging on a cross to the point of death,

 

Jesus, moments away from death, literally struggling to breathe, without any indication or preface in His dying words, He supposedly then and there decided to "quote" from Psalm 22:1, with the expectation that His audience, those who were observing His crucifixion, could then say that Christ's dying words were purposefully and strategically stated with specific reference to an Old Testament Scripture that King David had written centuries earlier.

###After being brutally flogged and beaten, Jesus still had the right mind and sound judgement to say the following as he was brutally being led to Golgotha carrying His cross[John 18:17]:

 

Luke 23:27 And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. 28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children

 

###After having spikes driven into His wrists and feet Jesus still had the right mind and sound judgement to say the following:

Luke 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

 

43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

 

###After hanging on a cross to the point of death, Jesus still had the right mind and sound judgement to say the following:

 

John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother`s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!"

 

###So, yes Coffee, Jesus was able to quote scripture while dying on the cross.

 

The underlying issue here is the very real chasm that differentiates between the spiritual profile of the Rudometkinite on one side, versus the spiritual profile of the Bible-based Molokan Christian on the other.

 

The Rudometkinites do not consider the Bible-based Molokan Christians as fellow "brothers and sisters".

 

###Coffee, I'll take your apostacy one step further than 4Vetta and claim that you are not even a Molokan anymore to begin with, but an apostate Molokan. Not only do you reject the SNL, but the Apocrypha as well which the Molokans accept, both Priguny and Postoyanni alike. Furthermore, do you reject the JP[Judson Press] bible as well on all Molokan tables? Do you believe in water baptism as other Molokan Apostates do? Do you eat Pork as other Molokan Apostates do? Also, were you one of Paul Efseaff's elves/gremlins that placed his booklet on windshields during

Paska 1984 that resulted in his excommunication?

 

###Here are some more apparent contradictions for your perusal and "solutions":

 

Matthew 26:69 Now Peter sat outside in the courtyard. And a servant girl came to him, saying, "You also were with Jesus of Galilee."

70 But he denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you are saying."

71 And when he had gone out to the gateway, another girl saw him and said to those who were there, "This fellow also was with Jesus of Nazareth."

 

Mark 14:66 Now as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came. 67 And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, "You also were with Jesus of Nazareth."

68 But he denied it, saying, "I neither know nor understand what you are saying." And he went out on the porch, and a rooster crowed.

69 And the servant girl saw him again, and began to say to those who stood by, "This is one of them." 70 But he denied it again.

 

###The question to you Coffee, did only one servant girl ask Peter twice, or did two separate girls each once asked Peter... according to scripture?

 

------------------------------------

 

###Here is another contradiction for you today;

 

Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."

 

Matthew 27:38 Then two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and another on the left.

39 And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, "You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."

41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders,[h] said, 42 "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. 43 He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ˜I am the Son of God.`"

44 Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.

 

###Here you have two robbers/criminals on each side of Jesus both reviling him in Matthew's Gospel, but one defending Jesus in Luke's Gospel. Which is the correct text, Coffee, of this God-breathed, innerrant, properly quoted, properly translated, without contradiction, without flaws, inspired word of God?

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Acts 21:17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Coffee; the correction should read S&L.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

"Ezra had been inspired to foresee that God's Son (the Apostolic Church, his Body) would die symbolically within 400 years

 

(Apochrypha, 2 Esdras 7:28-29)."

 

 

Paul Efseaff pg. 3, "A Labor of Love" 1984

[lastinline 0]

Greetings Coffee; the correction should read S&L.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

"Ezra had been inspired to foresee that God's Son (the Apostolic Church, his Body) would die symbolically within 400 years

 

(Apochrypha, 2 Esdras 7:28-29)."

 

 

Paul Efseaff pg. 3, "A Labor of Love" 1984

 

I can pretty much surmise, that the preaching of the Gospel, is truly what YOU have BIG problem with!

 

1 Corinthians 1:23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended, and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense(to RV22).

1Cr 1:24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the mighty power of God and the wonderful wisdom of God.

1Cr 1:25 This "foolish" plan of God is far wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God's weakness is far stronger than the greatest of human strength.

1Cr 1:26 Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world's eyes, or powerful, or wealthy when God called you.

NLT

 

And of course you would strongly disagree with Paul's contention in Galatians. Surly you feel, "everyone" here in verse 16, is miss-quoted and should read Maximisti-Molokans Only!

 

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes-Jews first and also Gentiles.

Rom 1:17 This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life."

Rom 1:18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. (maximisti)

Rom 1:19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.

NLT

 

###Coffee, I'll take your apostacy one step further than 4Vetta and claim that you are not even a Molokan anymore to begin with, but an apostate Molokan

 

This Christian Molokan believer, calls Coffee, a Brother in Christ and you the true apostate Molokan!

 

lastinline (staying away from the deception)

Edited November 6, 2007 by lastinline

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Lastinline: Regarding your post #3 in the thread titled "Changing of the guard"

 

We here at Lake Avenue

###Being that you attend Lake Avenue church[Nazaroff's] do you reject the JP[Judson Press] bible on the Prestol? Although it contains the Gospels it also as well contains the Apocrypha. According to your theology, the JP would contain truth as well as falseness. However, this content is the same that our Molokan forefathers used as inspired scripture . What say you?

 

The questions you need to answer are the following; Was the theology of our Molokan forefathers in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries sufficient for them to attain eternal salvation? In other words, did our Molokan forefathers know and follow the true path to Jesus Christ? Yes or no? Why or why not?

 

###According to your post #34 of this thread:

 

I can pretty much surmise, that the preaching of the Gospel, is truly what YOU have BIG problem with!

 

Here are some of the problems I have with the contradictions and disharmony found in the Gospels; perhaps you can clarify and provide the proper solutions:

 

1. What did Jesus say about Peter's denial?

 

John 13:38 Jesus answered, "Die for me? I tell you the truth, Peter�"before the rooster crows tomorrow morning, you will deny three times that you even know me.

 

Mark 14:30 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, Peter�"this very night, before the rooster crows twice, you will deny three times that you even know me."

Mark 14: 68 But Peter denied it. "I don`t know what you`re talking about," he said, and he went out into the entryway. Just then, a rooster crowed.[NLT]

 

###LastinLine, as you can see, in John's account Peter denies Christ 3 times before the rooster crows; In Mark's account only the first denial takes place and the rooster began crowing. Which gospel is in error?

 

2.Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn?

 

Matthew27:50-51 Then Jesus shouted out again, and he released his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.

 

Mark 15:37 Then Jesus uttered another loud cry and breathed his last. 38 And the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.

39 When the Roman officer who stood facing him saw how he had died, he exclaimed, "This man truly was the Son of God!"[NLT]

 

###According to Mark and Matthew, yes. Jesus died before the curtain of the temple was torn.

 

Luke 23: 44 By this time it was noon, and darkness fell across the whole land until three o`clock. 45 The light from the sun was gone. And suddenly, the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn down the middle. 46 Then Jesus shouted, "Father, I entrust my spirit into your hands!" And with those words he breathed his last.[NLT]

 

###According to Luke, no. LastinLine, which gospel is in error?

 

3.Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?

 

Matthew 3:13 Then Jesus went from Galilee to the Jordan River to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to talk him out of it. "I am the one who needs to be baptized by you," he said, "so why are you coming to me?"

15 But Jesus said, "It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires." So John agreed to baptize him.

 

John 1:31 I did not recognize him as the Messiah, but I have been baptizing with water so that he might be revealed to Israel."

32 Then John testified, "I saw the Holy Spirit descending like a dove from heaven and resting upon him. 33 I didn`t know he was the one, but when God sent me to baptize with water, he told me, ˜The one on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.` 34 I saw this happen to Jesus, so I testify that he is the Chosen One of God."[NLT]

 

###LastinLine, according to John the Baptist, he recognized Jesus before the baptism in Matthew's account. However, in Gospel John's account the Baptist did not recognize Jesus until the "dove" descended upon Christ. Which gospel is in error?

 

I can pretty much surmise, that the preaching of the Gospel, is truly what YOU have BIG problem with!

###I have a BIG problem with your hypocrisy in preaching of the Gospel such as: why are you not preaching the Gospel in Afghanistan or Iran? Instead, here in a Christian country with practically a christian church "on every block" you sit safe and smug while not fullfilling the Great Commission of Jesus and preach to all nations.[Matthew 28:19-20]. Instead, you preach the Gospel to the choir and to those who already know and follow the Gospel. Blatantly hypocritical of you.

 

Another BIG problem I have is yourself attempting to divide Christian Molokans over the tenets and doctrines of our forefathers. Once again I ask you LastinLine, was the theology of our forefathers sufficient to attain eternal salvation? Did they know and follow the true path to Jesus Christ in the 17th-19th centuries?

 

1 Corinthians 1:23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended, and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense(to RV22).

 

###I understand the gist of your inferrence in applying the above verse to me. However, you would be incorrect of course because the context clearly refers to pagan Greeks, not Christian believers. Nonetheless, in continuing your application of this passage to me, you neglected to take into account the preceeding verses to your quotation above in 1Cor 1:23 which applies to you:

 

 

1Corinthians1: 10 I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose. 11 For some members of Chloe`s household have told me about your quarrels, my dear brothers and sisters. 12 Some of you are saying, "I am a follower of Paul." Others are saying, "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Peter," or "I follow only Christ."

13 Has Christ been divided into factions?[NLT]

 

###The following scripture also applies to you LastinLine:

 

1Corinthians 5:10 But I wasn`t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive , or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don`t even eat with such people.

 

12 It isn`t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."[NLT]

 

1Corinthians 5:11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone® who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler�"not even to eat with such a one.[ESV]

 

1Corinthians 5:11But now I have written to you, not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother, be a fornicator, or covetous, or a server of idols, or a railer[DR]

 

1Corinthians 5:11-I now write that you must have nothing to do with any so-called Christian who leads a loose life, or is grasping, or idolatrous, a slanderer , a drunkard, or a swindler.[NEB]

 

Romans 16: 17 And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people[LIL and Molokan apostates]] who cause divisions and upset people`s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them. 18 Such people[LIL] are not serving Christ our Lord; they[LIL] are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they[LIL and Molokan apostates] deceive innocent people[NLT]

 

And of course you would strongly disagree with Paul's contention in Galatians. Surly you feel, "everyone" here in verse 16, is miss-quoted and should read Maximisti-Molokans Only!

###It is amazing how you can stereotype me with your preconcieved biases. You LastinLine, are a true psychic. Will I win the Lottery on Jan 1, 2010? Contrary to your preconception, you will find on pg. 564 vs. 6&7 in the S&L that MGR acknowledges people from different nations will be present and participants in the 1000 year reign. Also on pg. 714 you will find MGR acknowledging the following:

 

Revelations 7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. 10 And they were shouting with a mighty shout,

"Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne

and from the Lamb!"[NLT]

 

This Christian Molokan believer, calls Coffee, a Brother in Christ and you the true apostate Molokan!

 

###Does a brother in Christ disparage and slander other brothers in Christ? Here are those whom you and Coffee slander and disparage:

 

Pg. 67 S&L vs. 1: Grace be unto you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.[ Lukian Petrovich].

 

Pg. 140 S&L vs. 6: May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God our Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. Amen[David Yesseyevich]

 

Pg.303 S&L vs. 1 and 3: All of us believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God,...All of us believe that He is the eternal Redeemer and Savior of all who believe upon him.......[MGR]

 

Pg.663 S&L vs. 5: Lord God,Savior of all the earth! Let salvation come to us from the Lord Jesus Christ.[EGK]

 

###No LastinLine, you and Coffee both are not brothers in Christ, but apostate Molokans.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

1Corinthians 11:13 Judge for yourselves. Is it right for a woman to pray to God in public without covering her head?

[lastinline 0]

 

 

Have you asked God, Why His Word is SO full of errors and even out and out lies?

 

My perception is, that to the devout Maximist that you seem to be, that the Bible is only to be used to make a case for God's mediocrity in comparison to your god of the s&l. To you the Bible is only a toy to be played with, as needed.

 

From RV22?

The questions you need to answer are the following; Was the theology of our Molokan forefathers in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries sufficient for them to attain eternal salvation? In other words, did our Molokan forefathers know and follow the true path to Jesus Christ? Yes or no? Why or why not?

 

Yes, and only those who did not fall into the evil influence of mgr (19th century) and then only individually as to adherence to ONLY the Word of God by entering into a personal relationship with Christ Jesus toward "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

 

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,

Phl 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

Phl 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Phl 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Phl 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,

Phl 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

Phl 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Phl 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Phl 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

NKJV

 

From RV22?

###No LastinLine, you and Coffee both are not brothers in Christ, but apostate Molokans.

 

Sadly, I totally agree, you believe in a different christ and not the Christ of the Holy Scriptures, just as the christ of the Jehovah Witness's and Mormons is NOT the Christ of the Bible.

 

Let the the True God of the Bible be our ONLY Judge and to Him be the Glory, Amen.

 

lastinline (4 a purpose & obedience)

Edited November 22, 2007 by lastinline

[lastinline 0]

name='Guestotkroveniya22' date='Nov 19 2007, 12:29 PM' post='12729']From RV22? ###I have a BIG problem with your hypocrisy in preaching of the Gospel such as: why are you not preaching the Gospel in Afghanistan or Iran? Instead, here in a Christian country with practically a christian church "on every block" you sit safe and smug while not fullfilling the Great Commission of Jesus and preach to all nations.[Matthew 28:19-20]. Instead, you preach the Gospel to the choir and to those who already know and follow the Gospel. Blatantly hypocritical of you.

 

Greetings to you RV22?,

Concerning your assertion that I am being hypocritical for not preaching the Gospel in Afghanistan or Iran. Don't you realize that it is hypocrisy on you part to not be revealing the gospel according to mgr and as your messiah to ALL the world. Surely all should know about his new ten commandments. Should not all be made aware of them in book eight, Article 23, pages 442-444, that all who do not follow his (mgr) ten new commandments, he states in verses 21 &22 "he who disobeys these ten commandments given by me (mgr) in God surely is my enemy, and he will be banished by me immediately from Zion yonder, straight to Babylon, where he will burn forever in the sulphur flames of Gehenna, under the laguishing torment of the endless age.

 

Shouldn't the whole world be made aware of this divine proclamation? How about your non-Molokan friends, co-workers and neighbors, have you made them aware of this? Would it not be hypocritical on your part to not reveal this to them, since their eternal soul is at stake?

 

lastinline (4 a reason & 4 a season)

Edited November 24, 2007 by lastinline

[Guest Please Clarify]

 

From RV22?

###No LastinLine, you and Coffee both are not brothers in Christ, but apostate Molokans.

 

Sadly, I totally agree,

 

Lastinline, do you "totally agree" with RV22 that you and coffee are not brothers in Christ?

 

Do you "totally agree" with RV22 that you are an apostate molokan?

[lastinline 0]

 

From RV22?

###No LastinLine, you and Coffee both are not brothers in Christ, but apostate Molokans.

Sadly, I totally agree,

 

Lastinline, do you "totally agree" with RV22 that you and coffee are not brothers in Christ?

 

Do you "totally agree" with RV22 that you are an apostate molokan?

 

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify. It seems clear to me that a person such as RV22, would consider me an apostate molokan, since I reject the heretical teachings of the s&l. I will not accept the concept of a "new Israel" as taught in the s&l, for to do so would make the God of the Holy Scriptures a lier, because there is ONLY one Israel, His chosen people, with a covenant that is FOREVER! Certainly, if a time were to come that allegiance to mgr were required to remain a Molokan in good standing, my choice would be ONLY, Jesus Christ of Nazareth as my Messiah! Gladly, that time will NEVER come, I pray.

 

Please remember, it is called the "Book of the SUN" and not the "Book of the SON". That is NO accident! Why is that?

 

lastinline

[Guest Guest_steadfast_*]

.....if a time were to come that allegiance to mgr were required to remain a Molokan in good standing, my choice would be ONLY, Jesus Christ of Nazareth as my Messiah! Gladly, that time will NEVER come, I pray.

 

lastinline

'A Molokan in good standing',... do they believe the bible, why a second book, is something missing from the first? Why is it important to be in good standing with such people? Sorry Lastinline, I'm just curious.

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Lastinline: regarding your post#36

 

Have you asked God, Why His Word is SO full of errors and even out and out lies?

Is this an admission on your part that God's Word is SO full of errors and lies? If not, then I await your solutions to the myriad of contradictions and errors already posted on this and other threads concerning the Holy Bible. Can one find eternal salvation by hearing the Gospel preached despite the contradictions and errors? Apparently many people found Christ in Russia in the 17th-19th centuries by word of mouth only, without Bible in hand, and no doubt with many theological errors along the way such as the celebrating of the man made Easter instead of the Biblical Passover.

 

Another thought to ponder would be can a person find Christ by the preaching of the Gospel by our S&L founders? I have seen people convert to Christ without reading the Bible but by listening to a speaker effectively preach the Gospel without Bible in hand. That same fashion that a speaker can speak the word of God can and is used in the Gospel preaching found in the S&L. In fact, the S&L writers constantly and abundantly quoted and referred to the Bible for their preaching theology. You Lastinline have a problem with this because the Molokan theology does not follow the pattern of American theology such as the water Baptists. Some Molokan apostates are so deceived that they actually believe in the Just war theory and military support for example. Or the eschewing of the Holy Kiss. Or the popular non-Biblical practice among so-called "christians" of divorce and remarriage.

 

My perception is, that to the devout Maximist that you seem to be, that the Bible is only to be used to make a case for God's mediocrity in comparison to your god of the s&l. To you the Bible is only a toy to be played with, as needed.

 

###Your perception would be incorrect, as usual. The S&L does not supercede the Holy Bible and vice versa. The difference between you and I would be over the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. You believe revelation and prophecy from God ended at

Revelations 22 in the New Testament. Despite the fact that when fulfilled prophesy and miracles occur among our Molokan people, one of the biggest hangups you and other apostates have would be to accept these occurrences as true and geniune. The Molokan apostates will always look for a reason to discount a miraculous event, because of the doctrinal adherence to Sola Scriptura. Actually it is quite comical to watch the mental gymnastics performed trying to discount the miracles and prophesies.

 

Here is a case in point: Do you Lastinline, reject the fulfilled prophesies of EGK? In the book "The Happiest People on Earth" Demos Shakarian provides documented testimony of the power of God's prophesy fulfilled by EGK, in direct contradiction to your doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Your answer here will of course reveal where you stand on this issue.

 

Yes, and only those who did not fall into the evil influence of mgr (19th century) and then only individually as to adherence to ONLY the Word of God by entering into a personal relationship with Christ Jesus toward "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

###The Molokans here in America exist primarily by the fulfilled prophecies of EGK, and today you and I enjoy Lattes and perfect tomatoes while we discuss/debate Molokan theology online. You and I benefit directly now what was accomplished by God to our Christian Molokan people through EGK. You and I can freely worship, whether that would be truthfully or falsely. Was EGK evily influenced by MGR? Yes or no?

 

Sadly, I totally agree, you believe in a different christ and not the Christ of the Holy Scriptures, just as the christ of the Jehovah Witness's and Mormons is NOT the Christ of the Bible.

 

###Did the Christ of the Bible say the following:

 

John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. 4 But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.[NKJV]

 

###The water Baptists, the Orthodox, the Catholics, Mormons, and most Christians all pick up the sword. Do they believe in the Christ of the Bible?

 

Let the the True God of the Bible be our ONLY Judge and to Him be the Glory, Amen.

###The following verses contradict your statement above:

 

1Corinthians 5:Immorality Must Be Judged

 

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner”not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person.

 

1Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?[NKJV]

 

Regarding your post #37:

 

Should not all be made aware of them in book eight, Article 23, pages 442-444, that all who do not follow his (mgr) ten new commandments, he states in verses 21 &22 "he who disobeys these ten commandments given by me (mgr) in God surely is my enemy, and he will be banished by me immediately from Zion yonder, straight to Babylon, where he will burn forever in the sulphur flames of Gehenna, under the laguishing torment of the endless age.

 

###What you neglect to see is that MGR is quoting/referencing and paraphrasing what is already contained in the Bible:

 

1. Ephesians 6:18

2. Ephesians 5:22-33

3. 1 Corinthians 6:18

4. 2Corinthians 3:6

5.Colossians 3:5

6.Hebrews 6:2, Rev 20:12-13

7. 1 Cointhians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

8. 1 John 5:21

9. Wisdom 7:27, John 1:14, Baruch 3:37

10. Colossians 2:18, 21-22

 

###Your point is weak, Lastinline, if not pointless.

 

Shouldn't the whole world be made aware of this divine proclamation? How about your non-Molokan friends, co-workers and neighbors, have you made them aware of this? Would it not be hypocritical on your part to not reveal this to them, since their eternal soul is at stake?

Why should the world be made aware of this divine proclamation when it is already written in the Bible? Could you point me to the Great Commission by MGR to go to all the nations of the world to preach this divine proclamation already listed in the Bible?

However, Jesus was quite specific for you Lastine to go to Nations which include pagan and non christian countries such as Korea

and Iraq to preach the Gospel as in commanded to do so in Matthew 28:18-20, and salvation through Jesus Christ only, and not through faith in Buddah nor Allah via Muhammed.

 

###Regarding your post #39

 

It seems clear to me that a person such as RV22, would consider me an apostate molokan, since I reject the heretical teachings of the s&l.

 

Do you reject the teachings of the Apocrypha contained in the JP bible on your Lake avenue church prestol? Yes or No?

 

Regards, RV22.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.[NKJV]

 

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts.[NKJV]

[lastinline 0]

Concerning

Guestotkroveniya22 Nov 24 2007, 01:51 PM

 

QUOTE from lastinline

Have you asked God, Why His Word is SO full of errors and even out and out lies?

 

Quote from RV22

Is this an admission on your part that God's Word is SO full of errors and lies?

NO!!! Simply acknowledging your distaste for much of the Holy Scriptures and your need to take it to the God, that brought it to you in prayer.

.

From RV22

If not, then I await your solutions to the myriad of contradictions and errors already posted on this and other threads concerning the Holy Bible.

 

No solutions necessary, whatsoever. His Word is Holy as He is HOLY!

 

.

From RV22

Another thought to ponder would be can a person find Christ by the preaching of the Gospel by our S&L founders? I have seen people convert to Christ without reading the Bible but by listening to a speaker effectively preach the Gospel without Bible in hand.

Yes, they can find it initially with the TRUE GOSPEL preached to them, but there would be a requirement to continue in the Seed as Christ instructs in the Parable of the Sower, and keep only the True Word and produce fruit with patience. (Luke 8: 15)

 

From RV22

That same fashion that a speaker can speak the word of God can and is used in the Gospel preaching found in the S&L. In fact, the S&L writers constantly and abundantly quoted and referred to the Bible for their preaching theology.

 

Yes they do somewhat and then they constantly follow-up with contradictions and out-and-out heresy! No one can find salvation in words that are full of contradictions and errors, such as the Book of the SUN which is clearly not the Book of the SON.

 

From RV22

Or the popular non-Biblical practice among so-called "christians" of divorce and remarriage.

Surely you jest; "popular non-Biblical practice among so-called "christians" of divorce and remarriage. What church makes it, you say, popular? Strange though, it does seem to be getting quite popular in the Molokan Brotherhood.

 

From RV22

###Your perception would be incorrect, as usual. The S&L does not supercede the Holy Bible and vice versa. The difference between you and I would be over the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. You believe revelation and prophecy from God ended at Revelations 22 in the New Testament.

Yes on that on that statement, I gladly stand convicted for as stated in Revelations;

 

Sola scriptura; The Holy Scriptures: sufficient in of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

 

 

Rev 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;

Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

NKJV

 

It is no accident that this warning to ALL is at the end of the Holy Scriptures!

 

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.[NKJV]

 

Thanks for this Scripture that you have posted!

 

That is the mission of many on this forum: to not quench the TRUE Spirit, to NOT despise TRUE prophecies. Yes and of course, Test ALL things in the Light of the Holy Scriptures, for that will help ALL to hold fast to what is good and help All those who are searching for the Truth to abstain from all that is heresy in the s&l.

 

To God be the GLORY!

 

lastinline (Sola scriptura, yes absolutely!)

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Lastinline; Regarding your post #42

 

Quote from RV22

Is this an admission on your part that God's Word is SO full of errors and lies?

NO!!! Simply acknowledging your distaste for much of the Holy Scriptures and your need to take it to the God, that brought it to you in prayer.

###Did God bring us the following: That bats are birds[Leviticus 11:19], that rabbits chew cud[Leviticus 11:6]...? Since you believe in the veracity and inerrancy of the Holy Scripture, then your answer is undoubtedly yes. However, there is a problem with fact versus fiction. The Holy Bible seems to contradict FACT. The Holy Bible seems to contradict TRUTH.

 

Lastinline- Do insects have 4 or six legs? According to the Holy Scriptures, insects have 4 legs...

 

Leviticus 11:20 ˜All flying insects that creep on all fours shall be an abomination to you. 21 Yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on all fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap on the earth. 22 These you may eat: the locust after its kind, the destroying locust after its kind, the cricket after its kind, and the grasshopper after its kind. 23 But all other flying insects which have four feet shall be an abomination to you. [NKJV]

 

According to wikipedia, insects have six legs[including flying insects]:

 

Morphology

Insects possess segmented bodies supported by an exoskeleton, a hard outer covering made mostly of chitin. The segments of the body are organized into three regions, or tagmata; a head, a thorax, and an abdomen. The head supports a pair of sensory antennae, a pair of compound eyes, one to three simple eyes ("ocelli") and three sets of variously modified appendages that form the mouthparts. The thorax has six legs (one pair each for the prothorax, mesothorax and the metathorax segments making up the thorax) and two or four wings (if present in the species). The abdomen (made up of eleven segments some of which may be reduced or fused) has most of the digestive, respiratory, excretory and reproductive internal structures.

 

Now here is the challenge to you: Choose any high school science teacher or college biology professor and present to them the inerrancy of bats being birds, rabbits chewing cud, and insects having 4 legs.

 

From RV22

If not, then I await your solutions to the myriad of contradictions and errors already posted on this and other threads concerning the Holy Bible.

 

 

No solutions necessary, whatsoever. His Word is Holy as He is HOLY!

 

###Here you continue to tap dance around the landmine that is the God-breathed Holy Scriptures, once again circumventing the obvious by putting your fingers in your ears to the fact of the errors and contradictions of the Holy Bible. No solution necessary because there are NO solutions. Maybe you yourself need to take to God your prayer on why He authored such an error filled contradictory text.

 

Speaking of Holy...did the Holy God command Hosea to do the following...?

 

Hosea 1:2 When the LORD began to speak by Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea:

 

 

" Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry

And children of harlotry,

For the land has committed great harlotry

By departing from the LORD."

 

3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son. [NKJV]

 

Hosea 1:

2 When the Lord first began speaking to Israel through Hosea, he said to him, "Go and marry a prostitute, so that some of her children will be conceived in prostitution. This will illustrate how Israel has acted like a prostitute by turning against the Lord and worshiping other gods."

3 So Hosea married Gomer, the daughter of Diblaim, and she became pregnant and gave Hosea a son.[NLT]

 

Lastinline-Did the Holy God command Joshua to commit genocide against children and ethnic cleansing against non Jews...?

 

Joshua 10:30 And the LORD also delivered it and its king into the hand of Israel; he struck it and all the people who were in it with the edge of the sword. He let none remain in it, but did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.

31 Then Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, to Lachish; and they encamped against it and fought against it. 32 And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, who took it on the second day, and struck it and all the people who were in it with the edge of the sword, according to all that he had done to Libnah. 33 Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua struck him and his people, until he left him none remaining.

34 From Lachish Joshua passed to Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it and fought against it. 35 They took it on that day and struck it with the edge of the sword; all the people who were in it he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

36 So Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, to Hebron; and they fought against it. 37 And they took it and struck it with the edge of the sword”its king, all its cities, and all the people who were in it; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon, but utterly destroyed it and all the people who were in it.

38 Then Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and they fought against it. 39 And he took it and its king and all its cities; they struck them with the edge of the sword and utterly destroyed all the people who were in it. He left none remaining; as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir and its king, as he had done also to Libnah and its king.

40 So Joshua conquered all the land: the mountain country and the South and the lowland and the wilderness slopes, and all their kings; he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel had commanded.[NKJV]

 

Lastinline- Did the Holy God command Moses to take Midian virgins for sex slaves to Isrealite soldiers?

 

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. 18 But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

Numbers 31:31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

 

Lastinline- Did the Holy God command the Isrealites to take women for sex[concubinage] and children for slave labor?

 

Deuteronomy 20:10 "As you approach a town to attack it, you must first offer its people terms for peace. 11 If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. 12 But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. 13 When the Lord your God hands the town over to you, use your swords to kill every man in the town. 14 But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the plunder from your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.[NLT]

 

Yes, they can find it initially with the TRUE GOSPEL preached to them, but there would be a requirement to continue in the Seed as Christ instructs in the Parable of the Sower, and keep only the True Word and produce fruit with patience. (Luke 8: 15)

###Can this requirement be met without access to the Holy Scripture? In Russia the vast majority of our Molokan forefathers

did not have access to the Holy scriptures, but relayed the Gospel by word of mouth. I am not speaking/writing on what the masses recieved from the Orthodox clergy, which was skewed, but by the few Bibles that were circulated among tens of thousands of the peasantry. Was this theology sufficient for their eternal salvation?

 

Yes they do somewhat and then they constantly follow-up with contradictions and out-and-out heresy!

 

###It is interesting you mention contradictions and the S&L yet remain silent on the contradictions in the Holy Bible as already posted. In fact, your silence speaks volumes. Also the definition of heresy is interesting:

 

heresy (plural heresies)

 

(religion) A doctrine held by a member of a religion at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from ]Roman Catholic dogma.

1968 History of Western Civilization edited Heyes Baldwin & Cole. p.47. Macmillan. Library of Congress 67-13596.

"Heresy meant deliberate departure from the accepted doctrines of the church. It was intellectual and spiritual dissent and concerned the beliefs of Christianity, not the morals of its adherents."

A controversial or unorthodox opinion held by a member of a group, as in politics, philosophy, or science.

 

###As you can see Lastinline, heresy involves established religious beliefs-Your philosophy of religion is contrary to and heretical to established Molokan religious beliefs. In other words, by your doctrines you have placed yourself in the category of heresy. You yourself are the very heretic. Furthermore, the Holy Bible's position on bats, rabbits, and insects places it in the same heretical category concerning biological and scientific fact.

 

No one can find salvation in words that are full of contradictions and errors, such as the Book of the SUN which is clearly not the Book of the SON.

 

###"Words that are full of contradictions and errors". What an understatement. As you continue to tap dance some more around the issue concerning the contradictions and Biblical errancy, you look more the fool by your silence and circumvention.

 

 

###Also, which book of the Son are you referring to? There is the book of Genesis, the book of Exodus, the book of Leviticus, the book of Deuteronomy, the book of Numbers, the book of Joshua, Judges, Ruth, the book of Psalms, etc. But there is no book of the Son.

 

Surely you jest; "popular non-Biblical practice among so-called "christians" of divorce and remarriage. What church makes it, you say, popular?[Lastinline]

 

###The Baptists, Catholics, Mormons and others clearly sanction and support the doctrine of divorce and remarriage.

 

 

Strange though, it does seem to be getting quite popular in the Molokan Brotherhood.[Lastinline]

 

###Sadly this is happening among the people. However, this practice is clearly and definitively rejected by the Majority of the Molokan church Leadership. The presbyters and speakers are quite emphatic during the marriage ceremony of the "NO DIVORCE" policy and the doctrinal adherence of such. This is not the case with other so called christian churches and denominations. They condone and facilitate divorce and remarriage in direct violation of the New Testament teaching which places them in the category of false christianity.

 

You believe revelation and prophecy from God ended at Revelations 22 in the New Testament.

 

Yes on that on that statement, I gladly stand convicted for as stated in Revelations;

 

Sola scriptura; The Holy Scriptures: sufficient in of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

###For one, your stand rejects the fullfilled pahod prophesy of EGK. This in itself convicts you as a Molokan apostate. Secondly,

the doctrine of Sola Scriptura applies to the Biblical books without the Apocrypha. This also in itself convicts you as a Molokan apostate.

 

It is no accident that this warning to ALL is at the end of the Holy Scriptures! [Lastinline]

 

###What you fail to realize is that firstly the warning in Rev 22:18-19 is only relevant to the book of Revelations.

Secondly when Revelations was penned in about 96 A.D. there was no Bible, but scattered NT manuscripts and copies. Thirdly,

there was debate on whether to include Revelations in the canon, before finally cannonizing the Holy Bible we have today. The warning does not apply to the rest of the Bible as you mistakenly believe so.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.[NKJV]

 

Thanks for this Scripture that you have posted!

 

###How about giving God glory and thanksgiving by ACTUALLY following this command, instead of disobeying God's Word, which you currently engage in.

 

That is the mission of many on this forum: to not quench the TRUE Spirit, to NOT despise TRUE prophecies. Yes and of course, Test ALL things in the Light of the Holy Scriptures, for that will help ALL to hold fast to what is good and help All those who are searching for the Truth to abstain from all that is heresy in the s&l.

 

###Lastin., you and other Apostates on the forum are quenching the TRUE spirit and despising True prophesies. When your group gathers, there is no visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit. No jumping and leaping, no hand raising, no healings, no prophesying, no tongues, no interpretation of tongues, no workings of miracles. The very scripture you claim to uphold, you end up tearing down with your un-Biblical and man made doctrines. You see Lastinline, yoursupposed True spirit is nothing more than a cerebral type of spirit that does not manifest. It is nothing more than a religious philosophy based on a shallow theological system without substance or content. Our Molokan forefathers with less knowledge of syntac and semantics had much more faith and TRUE Spirit than you and your apostate bretheren would even hope for in multiple lifetimes. You apostates don't even greet each other with the Holy Kiss. No, Lastinline, your belief system is dead.

 

How many millions of christians were lead astray by the heresy in the KJV of the Holy Bible for approximately 250 plus years assuming and celebrating Easter as a Biblical Holy day?

 

How many millions of Christians today are practicing heresy in the form of divorce and remarriage?

 

How many millions of Christians practice the heresy found in the NLT?

 

Romans 16:16 Greet each other in Christian love.[NLT]

1 Corinthians 16:20 All the brothers and sisters here send greetings to you. Greet each other with Christian love.[NLT]

2 Corinthians 13:12 Greet each other with Christian love.[NLT]

1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brothers and sisters with Christian love.[NLT]

1 Peter 5:14 Greet each other with Christian love.[NLT]

 

Romans 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss.[NKJV]

1 Corinthians 16:20 All the brethren greet you.

Greet one another with a holy kiss. [NKJV]

2 Corinthians 13:12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.[NKJV]

1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss. [NKJV]

1 Peter 5:14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. [NKJV]

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Revelations 19:10 Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

 

Spirit and Life pg. 711-"...when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." [NKJV John 4:23-24]

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Surely you jest; "popular non-Biblical practice among so-called "christians" of divorce and remarriage. What church makes it, you say, popular?

 

Greetings Lastinline: Here are some examples

...

 

Editorial: The Christian Divorce Culture

We're not sending a strong enough signal that divorce is a sin.

A Christianity Today Editorial | posted 8/31/00 | posted 9/04/2000 12:00AM

 

 

Syndicated columnist Geneva Overholser believes that churches will eventually approve of homosexual unions. Why? "I think in due time this thinking will change, just as most churches' opposition to divorce, for example, has changed," she writes. Overholser is not alone in this perception. But where did Overholser and others get the idea that most churches no longer oppose divorce? Maybe from the way churches, including evangelical churches, have handled the matter lately. The problem is not confined to one denomination or subgroup. The most recent high-profile example happened this spring, in the divorce of Charles Stanley, pastor of the 5,000-member First Baptist Church of Atlanta. Stanley acknowledged the gravity of divorce when he promised a few years earlier to resign if he were to divorce. But after Stanley's 44-year marriage ended, Gearl Spicer, the church's administrative pastor, told the congregation that Stanley, 67, would continue as the church's senior pastor. At this the congregation stood and applauded. Spicer added, "It is my biblical, spiritual and personal conviction that God has positioned Dr. Stanley in a place where his personal pain has validated his ability to minister to all of us."A prominent friend of Stanley's said he was "deeply sympathetic with the sorrow I know all of the Stanley family must feel over this." How the matter was handled in private, we do not know. But so nervous are we these days about being judgmental, condemning, and so on, few bothered to suggest publicly that Stanley's divorce was morally wrong. Divorce is certainly not the unforgivable sin, and when a couple divorces, it is only right that the church show compassion and understanding”especially in cases where abuse or truly irreconcilable issues have made the marriage a misery and a mockery.But there's no getting around it: whether we define sin as a transgression of Christ's commands, missing the mark, or the breaking of relationships, divorce is a sin. To be sure, divorce is sometimes the lesser of two evils, but it nonetheless nullifies God's intent. God joins people together; he doesn't pull them apart.Why emphasize the moral dimension? Partly because treating divorce as a therapeutic problem only gets us so far. We need to raise the stakes, or better, to show once again how high the stakes really are.As a recent study by George Barna showed, the percentage of born-again Christians who have been divorced (27) actually beats the national average by 2 points. "While it may be alarming to discover that born-again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce," says Barna, "that pattern has been in place for quite some time.

______________________________________________

 

Baptist divorce rate higher than average

___"Born-again" Christians are more likely to go through a marital split than are non-Christians, according to a new study by the Barna Research Group.

___Using statistics drawn from a nationwide survey of nearly 4,000 adults, the Barna data show 11 percent of the adult population currently is divorced but that 25 percent of all adults have experienced at least one divorce.

___Among "born-again" Christians, 27 percent currently are divorced or previously have been divorced, compared with 24 percent among adults who are not "born again."

___Surprisingly, the Barna report said, the Christian group whose adherents have the highest likelihood of getting divorced are Baptists. The only group to surpass Baptists were Christians associated with non-denominational Protestant churches.

 

______________________________

 

Baptist Leader Says Giuliani's Divorce a Problem

By The Associated Press

Wed, Mar. 07 2007 10:59 AM ET

[-]Text[+] E-mail Print RSS More on Topic

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - A Southern Baptist leader said Tuesday that evangelical voters might tolerate a divorced presidential candidate, but they have deep doubts about GOP hopeful Rudy Giuliani, who has been married three times.

 

Richard Land, head of public policy for the Southern Baptist Convention, told The Associated Press that evangelicals believe the former New York City mayor showed a lack of character during his divorce from his second wife, television personality Donna Hanover.

 

"I mean, this is divorce on steroids," Land said. "To publicly humiliate your wife in that way, and your children. That's rough. I think that's going to be an awfully hard sell, even if he weren't pro-choice and pro-gun control."

 

Giuliani married his longtime companion, Judith Nathan, in 2003. They had dated publicly while Giuliani was married to Hanover. His first marriage ended in an annulment.

 

A Giuliani staff member referred calls on Land's statement to Giuliani's exploratory committee, which did not have an immediate response Tuesday night.

 

Giuliani already has a challenge in winning over conservative voters who make up the GOP's base. Many of them view him with skepticism because his moderate views on social issues such as gays, guns and abortion are considered too liberal.

 

Land noted that Republican presidential candidate John McCain has been married twice, but said the Arizona senator has acknowledged his part in the failure of his first marriage.

 

"It's a molehill compared to Giuliani's mountain," Land said. "When you're a war hero [like McCain], you have less to prove on the character front."

 

Many polls identify Giuliani as the front-runner in the Republican presidential primary, followed by McCain and former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney.

 

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11% of all American adults are divorced

25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce

 

 

27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce

24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced

 

 

21% of atheists have been divorced

21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced

24% of Mormons have been divorced

25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced

29% of Baptists have been divorced

24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced

 

 

27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced

26% of people in the West have been divorced

19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced

 

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Born again adults who have been married are just as likely as non-born-again adults who have been married to eventually become divorced. Because the vast majority of born again marriages occurred after the partners had accepted Christ as their savior[Remarriage], it appears that their connection to Christ makes less difference in the durability of people`s marriages than many people might expect. Faith has had a limited affect on people`s behavior, whether related to moral convictions and practices, relational activities, lifestyle choices or economic practices.

 

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LIBERAL DENOMINATIONS

Having said that, it is sadly true that divorce is indeed high in many Christian circles. It goes almost without saying that divorce is rampant in liberal denominations. In the Anglican Church, for example, divorce is so common that earlier this year a Church of England working group proposed that the denomination drop its ban on the remarriage of divorcees whose former spouses are still living. Bishop Michael Scott-Joynt of Winchester, who chaired the group, said the report addressed the "reality" that marriages break down. In fact, the change in church law would merely reflect current practice within the Anglican Church. Like other liberal denominations, what the Anglican Church says in writing has little to do with what it does in practice. England is the divorce capital of Europe. Roughly 7,000 Church of England marriages each year, 10% of the total, involve divorcees with living ex-spouses. And large numbers of other members of the Church of England, like Prince Charles, simply live in adulterous relationships without even the semblance of marriage vows.

 

 

According to a comprehensive survey conducted by the United Methodist Church in 1986, divorce among the "clergy" is more than three times higher than among the non-ordained church members. In the mid-1980s, all three of the new Methodist bishops for the western part of the United States were divorced. The first female Methodist who was ordained a bishop, Leotine Kelly, is a divorced woman, as are most liberal female church leaders. United Methodist professor and minister Robert Elliott developed a divorce service for couples seeking a blessing on their breakup. Joseph Quillian, dean of the school where Elliott teaches, called the divorce service a sound concept.

 

Much the same miserable situation exists in other liberal denominations. Divorce and immorality are rampant in these denominations because they have rejected the Bible and there is no clear separation from the world. A report entitled "Sexuality, Spirituality and Social Justice" was distributed throughout the Presbyterian Church-USA in 1990-91. It said "the moral for Christians ought not be marriage, but rather justice-love. ... Where there is justice-love, sexual expression has ethical integrity. That moral principle applies to single, as well as to married, persons, to gay, lesbian and bisexual persons, as well as to heterosexual persons." The report indicated that a person can have sexual relations outside of marriage and still be right with God. Is it any wonder that the divorce rate among such "Christians" is high?

 

EVANGELICALS

Sadly, divorce is becoming almost as common among Christian leaders who claim to be evangelical Bible believers. This is another reflection of the apostasy of modern Evangelicalism. Charles Stanley, well-known Southern Baptist pastor and former president of the SBC, recently went through a divorce. When the news was announced to the First Baptist Church of Atlanta in May, the newly divorced pastor received a standing ovation from the congregation. The wife of Ned Graham, son of Billy Graham, divorced him on the basis of "infidelity, domestic violence, and drug and alcohol abuse." Ned is head of East Gate Ministries, which distributes Bibles in China, and he continues to be supported in that capacity by his famous father. Well-known Christian author Hal Lindsey has been divorced multiple times. Bob Larson is divorced. Many others could be mentioned.

 

CONTEMPORARY CHRISTIAN MUSICIANS

Divorce among Contemporary Christian "artists" is rampant. Just a few of the divorced or separated CCM musicians are Sandi Patty, Deniece Williams, Sheila Walsh, John Talbot, Randy Stonehill, Larry Norman, Tom Howard, Ralph Carmichael, Steve Archer, Amy Grant and Gary Chapman (both Amy and Gary have gotten remarried since their 1997 divorce), Stacy Jones of the rap group Grits, and all of the members of the now disbanded Barnabas. Melody Green, widowed wife of Keith Green (who was killed in a plane crash in 1982), recently divorced her second husband, Andrew Sievright.

 

CHARISMATICS

Divorce is also rampant among Pentecostal-Charismatic leaders. Aimee Semple McPherson, founder of the Four Square Pentecostal Churches, was a divorced adulteress, as was famous Pentecostal evangelist Kathryn Kuhlmann. Richard Roberts, who is in the process of taking over the ministry of his father, Oral, divorced his first wife and married a Oral Roberts University student. Jim and Tammy Bakker divorced and are both remarried. In July of this year, two well-known Charismatic pastors got divorces (Ray McCauley of Johannesburg, South Africa, and Clarence McClendon of Los Angeles). John Jacobs, founder of the Power Team, was divorced from his wife of 16 years this summer. Hundreds of other Charismatics could be mentioned.

 

FUNDAMENTAL BAPTISTS

Sadly, some elements of the fundamental Baptist movement are also guilty in this matter. Pastor Peter Ruckman of Pensacola, Florida, is twice divorced and thrice married yet remains in the pastorate and mocks anyone who believes he is disqualified. He has written a booklet to justify his position. I have heard personally from many divorced fundamental Baptist pastors who use Ruckman as their model and who get very angry when someone says they are not qualified. Pastor Jack Hyles has counseled divorced men to go into the pastorate and has encouraged others to stay in the pastorate after their divorces. Hyles calls adultery a "mistake"; and in his sermon "The Good Man Versus the Spiritual Man" (Dec. 20, 1987) Hyles said that the only difference between those who commit adultery and those who do not is that in the latter the sin of adultery is "in remission." It is perhaps no wonder, then, that adulterous pastors are rampant within the circle of churches that supports Jack Hyles.

 

-----------------------------------------------

A Statement on Divorce & Remarriage in the Life of Bethlehem Baptist Church[May 2, 1989]

 

By John Piper

 

Let it be made clear again what was said above: there is NO past divorce or remarriage that in itself brings church discipline. None of the divorced and remarried members of Bethlehem will automatically come under discipline because their divorce or remarriage falls in a category which this statement declares to be unbiblical. An expression of genuine repentance for the sin involved is all that is needed to settle the matter and make a person a member in good standing.

 

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The Catholic Church presumes that marriages are valid, binding spouses for life. When couples do separate and divorce, therefore, the Church examines in detail their marriage to determine if, right from the start, some essential element was missing in their relationship. If that fact has been established, it means the spouses did not have the kind of marital link that binds them together for life.

 

The Church then issues a declaration of nullity (an annulment) and both are free to marry again in the Catholic Church.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Orthodox canon law can permit a second and even a third marriage "in economia", but strictly forbids a fourth. In theory divorce is only recognized in the case of adultery, but in practise is also recognised in light of other reasons. There is a list of causes of divorce acceptable to the Orthodox Church. In practise the bishops sometimes apply "economia" in a liberal way. By the way, divorce and remarriage are only permitted in the context of "economia", that is, out of pastoral care, out of understanding for weakness. A second or third marriage will always be a deviation from the "ideal and unique marriage", but often a fresh opportunity to correct a mistake".

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

Are Mormon marriages different? Is divorce allowed?

Mormon marriages are different from most marriages because they are considered eternal. If a husband and wife are sealed together in the temple, they can be together on into the celestial kingdom. However, the church does have a process for annulment and sees divorce as an unfortunately necessary evil. In Mormon President Gordon Hinckley's words: "There is now and again a legitimate cause for divorce. I am not one to say that it is never justified. But I say without hesitation that this plague among us, which seems to be growing everywhere, is not of God, but rather is the work of the adversary of righteousness and peace and truth."

 

Just as a civil marriage does not automatically translate into a temple sealing for a Mormon couple, a civil divorce does not unseal them. If a divorcing couple wishes to become unsealed, they must receive a cancellation of sealing, which requires approval from high-ranking church officials. A Mormon woman must receive a cancellation of sealing prior to remarrying if she wishes her next marriage to be sealed in the temple. However, because men are permitted to be sealed to more than one woman, they do not have to cancel a previous sealing in order to remarry in the tem

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In harmony with these principles, the following statement sets forth the position of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on the subject of divorce and remarriage:

 

(2) Unfaithfulness to the marriage vow has generally been seen to mean adultery and/or fornication. However, the New Testament word for fornication includes other sexual irregularities. Therefore, sexual perversions, including homosexual practices, are also recognized as a misuse of sexual powers and a violation of the divine intention of marriage. As such, they are just cause for divorce.

 

(3) In the event that the reconciliation is not effected, the innocent spouse has the biblical right to secure a divorce, and also to remarry.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Regards, RV22.

 

"Seventh Commandment- You shall not commit adultery. This commandment asks those who sin in the flesh: Have you left a lawful wife and taken another, or a relative?" [David Yesseyevich, pg. 117, S&L]

 

Mark 10:11 So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

[seeking_truth_1 0]

More smoke from otkroveniya 22

 

According to Scripture God hates divorce but seeing as you find the Bible full of errors you could very well dismiss that

 

otkroveniya 22 would, through inference, have you believe that everyone else is divorcing but the sacred molokan "church" is exempt from it

 

As to this alleged evidence regarding divorce, calling yourself a Christian doesn't make it so just as by being in a barn makes you a horse

 

I wonder how the molokan comunity would stack up when it comes to "worldly" behavior

 

Suicide

Alcoholism and other substance abuse issues

Divorce

Premarital sex

Criminal activity to include drug dealing, rape, pedophilia, robbery and embezzlement

 

and all the things that are earmarks of the World system

 

Jesus is capable of cleansing and taking care of anyones sin - debt due for anyone who would call upon His name (Romans 10:9)

 

Ultimately the molokan "church" is no better or worse than any other Church because their membership is comprised of sinners

 

However, some are saved by grace while others are not because they are unwilling to come as Scripture prescribes

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Seeking- Regarding yur post #45;

 

More smoke from otkroveniya 22

Where there is smoke there is fire. Let's see just how full of road apples you are. Here is your chance to refute the following contradictions:

 

A.When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus' daughter already dead?

 

Matthew 9: 18 As Jesus was saying this, the leader of a synagogue came and knelt before him. "My daughter has just died," he said, "but you can bring her back to life again if you just come and lay your hand on her."[NLT]

 

###According to Matthew, yes Jairus' daughter was already dead.

 

Mark 5:21 Jesus got into the boat again and went back to the other side of the lake, where a large crowd gathered around him on the shore. 22 Then a leader of the local synagogue, whose name was Jairus, arrived. When he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet, 23 pleading fervently with him. "My little daughter is dying," he said. "Please come and lay your hands on her; heal her so she can live."

 

###According to Mark, No. Which is it, Seeking...Yes or No? Was she dead or still alive?

 

B.According to many Christians the following prophesy is directly attributed to Jesus:

 

Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us,

a son is given to us.

The government will rest on his shoulders.

And he will be called:

Wonderful Counselor,[d] Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

In addition, Jesus emphasizes the virtue of peacemakers in the following:

 

Matthew 5:9 God blesses those who work for peace,

for they will be called the children of God.

 

Yet here the Prince of Peace says the following:

 

Matthew 10:34 "Don`t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword.[NLT]

 

###Now Seeking, which is it? Is Jesus the Prince of Peace....or division? Peace...or strife? Peace...or the sword?

Or because Jesus is the Son of God He can do whatever He wishes...including hypocricy? Telling us about peace on the one side while declaring strife and division on the other?

 

otkroveniya 22 would, through inference, have you believe that everyone else is divorcing but the sacred molokan "church" is exempt from it

 

###If you would pay close attention instead of posting your typical shallow drive by rhetoric, you would see the deeper meaning of the point being made. The BIG difference is that the Molokan leadership does not sanction nor support the unbiblical doctrine of divorce and remarriage that the other so-called Christian churches do.

 

As to this alleged evidence regarding divorce, calling yourself a Christian doesn't make it so just as by being in a barn makes you a horse

###Alledged? Pull your head out of the sand and check for yourself. Or are you afraid of truth? After all, you are....SEEKING Truth.....aren't you? Do you deny the divorce and flip-flop of Charless Stanley? Do you deny the adultery of Jimmy Swaggart ?Do you deny the divorce and remarriage of the following, some of which married multiple times- Peter Ruckman, Hal Linsey, Jim and Tammy Bakker, Ned Graham? Do you deny the divorce and remarriage policy of many so-called Christian churches? Or are you implying that these denominations are false Christians as I say they are?

 

Ultimately the molokan "church" is no better or worse than any other Church because their membership is comprised of sinners

 

###Here you would be mistaken because the Molokan church does not sanction nor condone worldly behavior as does the other church groups. Sadly this does not stop the grave and mortal sinning of people who are members. In the other church groups there is no restitution nor responsibility taken for the consequences for one's sinning actions. Here in the Molokan church there is, and the result is members who are unwilling to face up to and own their sins. Instead they pack up and move on down to the corner Cavalry Chapel where the philosophy is "no guilt is necessary- you are free, free, free"....while meanwhile leaving a trainwreck of sin for relatives and members to deal with. Or perhaps turning this same philosophy of forgiveness without responsibility back onto the Molokans in an attempt to draw more into this same false sense of salvation that you and others spout.

 

Jesus is capable of cleansing and taking care of anyones sin - debt due for anyone who would call upon His name (Romans 10:9)

###This still does not permit a person to remarry. In addition to your scripture citation, the following applies as well:

 

Romans 8:12 Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. 13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.[NLT]

 

However, some are saved by grace while others are not because they are unwilling to come as Scripture prescribes

 

###Until they that are supposedly saved by grace realize they have to work out their salvation with fear and trembling[Philippians 2:12]. They then take the easy road to perdition and end up fulfilling the "quota" of the following:

 

Matthew 13:20 The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy. 21 But since they don`t have deep roots, they don`t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God`s word. 22 The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God`s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced. [NLT]

 

###The difference Seeking, between your religious philosophy and our Molokan faith is the simple truth which you refuse to acknowledge; you have no foundation for your belief system that was established with blood of martyrs. Our Molokan forefathers took their true faith in Jesus all the way.....to death by torture. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

John 15:13 There is no greater love than to lay down one`s life for one`s friends.

 

"Who and what manner of man are you, and why have you been kept in prison thus long without a ruling?" To this our hero Maxim Gavrilovich boldly replied, "I am here for the truth and the love of the law of Christ"[pg. 470 S&L]

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Seeking- Regarding your post #29;

 

Lets address a couple of your "points" in and amongst your flurry of confusion and misunderstanding

 

First you will need to look at the Greek to get the best translation of the Word for the NT reference in Acts 12:4

 

πασχα pascha pas`-khah not Easter referring to the Passover held yearly

###Brilliant! Now that you see for yourself that the true and original meaning of Acts 12:4 is referring to the biblical Passover of the Old Testament and not to the man made holiday of Easter, you realize that you have made my point for me. Now the important question to you Seeking is that will you admit that the KJV was in error? Yes or No? Now you yourself have posted the unrefutable evidence without any of my help, will you now follow the logical conclusion of the KJV versus the Greek concerning this passage? Or will you back peddle your way into denial?

 

 

In the prophetic context of Isaiah 13:21 there is a list of animals being referenced that are occupying the region that was made desolate

 

From the Hebrew it's a goat...Possibly a demon possessed goat but none the less, a goat

 

###According to Wikipedia, a goat is:

 

The domestic goat (Capra aegagrus hircus) is a subspecies of goat domesticated from the wild goat of southwest Asia and Eastern Europe. The goat is a member of the Bovidae family and is closely related to the sheep, both being in the goat antelope subfamily Caprinae.

 

Domestic goats are one of the oldest domesticated species. For thousands of years, goats have been used for their milk, meat, hair, and skins over much of the world.[1] In the last century they have also gained some popularity as pets.[2]

 

###According to Wikipedia, Satyrs are:

 

In Greek mythology, satyrs (in Greek, ΣάτυÏοι ” Sátyroi) are a troop of male companions of Pan and Dionysus” "satyresses" were a late invention of poets” that roamed the woods and mountains. In mythology they are often associated with sex drive and vase-painters often portrayed them with uncontrollable erections.

 

In the King James Version of the Bible, Isaiah 13:21 and 34:14, the English word "satyr" is used to represent the Hebrew sh'lrlm, "hairy ones". In Hebrew folklore, sh'lrlm are a type of demon or supernatural being which inhabits waste places. There is an allusion to the practice of sacrificing to the sh'lrlm (often translated as "devils") in Leviticus 17:7. They correspond to the "shaggy demon of the mountain-pass" (azabb al-akaba) of old Arab legend.

 

###Once again Seeking, you have made my point for me. And once again the question to you.....Is the KJV in error? It is blatantly obvious...will you admit is as such? Or tap-dance your way around it?

 

As to the rest of your attempts, I'll not address because they all end up the same way...debunked

 

###Is this a dodge? Here is your prime opportunity for you to"debunk" the following biblical contradictions:

 

1. Seeking- Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?

 

Matthew 3:13 Then Jesus went from Galilee to the Jordan River to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to talk him out of it. "I am the one who needs to be baptized by you," he said, "so why are you coming to me?"

15 But Jesus said, "It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires." So John agreed to baptize him.[NLT]

 

###According to Matthew's account, yes.

 

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 He is the one I was talking about when I said, ˜A man is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed long before me.` 31 I did not recognize him as the Messiah, but I have been baptizing with water so that he might be revealed to Israel."

32 Then John testified, "I saw the Holy Spirit descending like a dove from heaven and resting upon him. 33 I didn`t know he was the one, but when God sent me to baptize with water, he told me, ˜The one on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.` 34 I saw this happen to Jesus, so I testify that he is the Chosen One of God."[NLT]

 

###According to John's account, no. Which is it Seeking......Yes or No?

 

2. The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once?

 

Matthew 21:18 In the morning, as Jesus was returning to Jerusalem, he was hungry, 19 and he noticed a fig tree beside the road. He went over to see if there were any figs, but there were only leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" And immediately the fig tree withered up.

20 The disciples were amazed when they saw this and asked, "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?"

 

###According to Matthew, yes.

 

Mark 11:12 The next morning as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 He noticed a fig tree in full leaf a little way off, so he went over to see if he could find any figs. But there were only leaves because it was too early in the season for fruit. 14 Then Jesus said to the tree, "May no one ever eat your fruit again!" And the disciples heard him say it.

 

15 When they arrived back in Jerusalem, Jesus entered the Temple and began to drive out the people buying and selling animals for sacrifices. He knocked over the tables of the money changers and the chairs of those selling doves, 16 and he stopped everyone from using the Temple as a marketplace. 17 He said to them, "The Scriptures declare, ˜My Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations,` but you have turned it into a den of thieves."

18 When the leading priests and teachers of religious law heard what Jesus had done, they began planning how to kill him. But they were afraid of him because the people were so amazed at his teaching.

 

19 That evening Jesus and the disciples left the city.

 

20 The next morning as they passed by the fig tree he had cursed, the disciples noticed it had withered from the roots up. 21 Peter remembered what Jesus had said to the tree on the previous day and exclaimed, "Look, Rabbi! The fig tree you cursed has withered and died!"

 

###According to Mark, no. It withered overnight. Which Gospel, Seeking, is in error?

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Psalms 25:5 Lead me by your truth and teach me,

for you are the God who saves me.

All day long I put my hope in you.

 

John 18:Jesus responded, "You say I am a king. Actually, I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth. All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true."

 

38 "What is truth?" Pilate asked.

[anonymous 0]

 

###However, the terms assay, prove, and try are in fact all employed in this translation and here are some examples all using the same 'nacah'...

 

Job 4: 2If we assay to commune with thee, wilt thou be grieved? but who can withhold himself from speaking?

Exodus 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

2 Chronicles 32:31 Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to enquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart.

 

###So the KJV translators had ample opportunity to use these words but chose tempt instead which shows as an erroneous innacurracy in translation.

GOD`S [recorded/written] word(s).......THE HOLY SCRIPTURES tells us:

 

"The grass withers, the flower fades: but the word of our GOD shall stand forever." (Isaiah 40:8)

 

"The words of THE LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." (Psalm 12:6)

 

"The law (word) of THE LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony (word) of THE LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts (commands/words) of THE LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment (word) of THE LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes." (Psalm 19:7-8)

 

"The works of HIS hands are verity and judgment; all HIS commandments (words) are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness." (Psalm 111:7-8)

 

"YOUR word is true from the beginning: and every one of YOUR righteous judgments endures forever." (Psalm 119:160)

 

THE [iNCARNATE] WORD OF GOD WHO IS GOD.......JESUS of Nazareth tells us:

 

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but MY words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:35)

 

The words recorded in THE HOLY SCRIPTURES are the word(s) of THE ONE TRUE and LIVING.......GOD. The word(s) of GOD is the truth and the only source of truth that convicts of sin, warns of judgment, saves the sinner, purifies, cleanses, matures the believer and gives the hope of eternal glory because THE AUTHOR of HIS word is THE [ABSOLUTE] TRUTH (John 14:6).

 

GOD`S wisdom, revealed in HIS [recorded/written] word(s), teaches:

 

"As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly." (Proverbs 26:11)

 

Fool: One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding.

 

And so it is with otkroveniya and mgr`s faithful ones who just do not "get it" nor desire to. They just do not "get" that life is all about.......THE LORD.......GOD.......WHO IS [THE] LIFE (John 14:6). Life is not about their beloved hero(es) of their "New Israel jumper/leaper" so-called "faith" nor about their so-called "New Israel jumper/leaper faith." They just do not "get" that it is their arrogant zeal to defend the heretical hero(es) of their "New Israel jumper/leaper faith" along with their anti-SCRIPTURAL teachings that blinds them to the truth of their foolhardy rebellion against THE LORD GOD/HIS word.

 

There is no "erroneous inaccuracy" in translation.

 

If otkroveniya is given the benefit of doubt here, the inclination is to believe that he actually chose, that is, made a conscious decision, to miss the given that the terms assay, prove, tempt, test, and try can and are used interchangeably as in the three examples he himself provided.

 

If, on the other hand, the benefit of doubt was presumptive, the situation is simply one of a superficial and stiff-necked stubborn carnal mind`s willful ignorance of the truth.

 

(Unfortunately for them, otkroveniya and his brethren`s own words confirm the latter.)

 

###Anonymous; if this is an attempt to some how connect with Abraham's situation it is quite weak as an analogy if at all. Furthermore, Abraham did not regard slaughtering Isaac as the "graduation test". Non-sequitor.

Why don`t we try an old adage to allow otkroveniya the opportunity to grasp the concept?

 

In the popularized words of Cervantes:

 

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

 

The focus in the generalization related to schooling is that of nacahing --- assaying, proving, tempting, testing --- as in:

 

"So the anger of THE LORD burned against Israel, and HE said, ˜Because this nation has transgressed MY covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not listened to MY voice, I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, in order to test Israel by them, whether they will keep the way of THE LORD to walk in it as their fathers did, or not." (Judges 2:20-22)

 

"And they were for testing Israel, to find out if they would obey the commandments of THE LORD, which HE had commanded their fathers through Moses." (Judges 3:4)

 

Abraham`s belief/faith in THE LORD MOST HIGH/HIS word, when "put to the test," proved to be genuine, to be true, that is to say, free from hypocritical and dishonest, untruthful [empty] claims. Abraham`s "graduation" as it were was that of a more profound faith in his CREATOR thus a more intimate relationship with HIM demonstrated both in word and in deed. In colloquial English, Abraham authentically/genuinely "walked the talk."

 

Unlike mgr and his followers in kind, who when "put to the test," "tempted," "tried" or "assayed" by THE LORD GOD/HIS word, prove to be fakes/imitations, and at best, agnostics. In short, their faith is not the faith of Abraham.

 

And that is their.......choice.

 

###Is not slaughtering your own daughter wrong, Anonymous? Or is it righteous? In the KJV it was a provocation to do wrong hence, a temptation.

The above perspective is not that of the spiritual mind but of the carnal mind; the carnal mind Apostle Paul wrote about in Romans 8:7-8.

 

"...the carnal mind is enmity (deep-rooted hatred) against GOD; for it is not subject to the law of GOD, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh (carnal mind) cannot please GOD."

 

The cardiac dis-ease mgr and his faithful brethren suffer(ed) from (and weren`t/aren`t even aware of) is --- enmity (deep-rooted hatred, hostility) against GOD thus HIS word which is [HIS] law.

 

Abraham, on the other hand, loved/was obedient to GOD thus HIS word (which is [HIS] law - Genesis 26:5), thus pleased HIM, and in fact was called the "friend of GOD" (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8).

 

The King James translation and use of the term tempt rather than assay, prove, test or try (all used interchangeably as otkroveniya himself [unwittingly] affirmed with the three passages he presented --- Job 4:2, Exodus 20:20, 2 Chronicles 32:31) in this particular text has nothing to do with the content of the text (which otkroveniya, due to his ignorance of the "sacrificial system" mindset of Abraham`s time, also attempts to distort by interjecting his own disbelief/skepticism and misinterpretation, namely, THE LORD GOD`S command to Abraham to offer up/sacrifice Isaac) other than the translation of the account from the Hebrew language into the Olde English language.

 

The truth of the matter is, otkroveniya and his s&l brethren are hostile to the true SCRIPTURES and the truths contained therein.

 

Why?

 

Because like their beloved hero(es) of their "New Israel jumper/leaper faith" before them, GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES exposes and judges the thoughts and intentions of their hearts (Hebrews 4:12), and condemns them. This is one of the reasons their beloved principal hero, mgr, hated the church councils and their creeds whose purpose was to maintain [the integrity of] the [written] word of GOD spoken by THE [iNCARNATE] WORD OF GOD (on which CHRISTianity is founded) transmitted to the Apostles during the formative years of the early church, and in doing so, ferreted out heresies like the very ones their beloved principal hero, maxim gavrilovitch rudometkin, practiced and preached, e.g., Arianism, Montanism.

 

Another reason for their rejection of GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES is the fact that they esteem their "holy book" (s&l) on a par with or higher than GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES just as the Pharisaical Jews did and do with the Talmud (Mishna and gemaras). And because their beloved hero(es) of their so-called "New Israel jumper/leaper faith" could not have possibly been wrong, everyone else, including THE CREATOR HIMSELF, must needs be. It is this spirit of pride that motivates and compels them (with assistance from GOD`S adversary, the originator/progenitor of willful stubborn pride) to come up against THE LORD.......GOD/HIS word only to be exposed as the rebels and fools they are for thinking (vainly) they can do so without negative [temporal and eternal] repercussions. Like their beloved heroes before them they still haven`t realized that no one, repeat, no one is a "match" for THE LORD.......GOD. In other words, it is utter foolishness to think one can "challenge" his/her CREATOR`S/MAKER`S word thus one`s CREATOR/MAKER HIMSELF.

 

"The word which came to Jeremiah from THE LORD saying, ˜Arise and go down to the potter`s house, and there I shall announce MY words to you.` Then I went down to the potter`s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. Then the word of THE LORD came to me saying, ˜Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does`? declares THE LORD. ˜Behold, like the clay in the potter`s hand, so are you in MY hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; if it does evil in MY sight by not obeying MY voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.`" (Jeremiah 18:1-10)

 

Yet this is what the chief rebel and his faithful followers choose to do --- willfully disobey GOD`S voice/word.

 

To reiterate what has been stated previously to otkroveniya --- his rebellion against THE LORD GOD/HIS word in defending his heretical hero(es) (permitted by THE LORD GOD and influenced by HIS adversary, satan) has darkened his mind (thinking) and blinded him from seeing/knowing (understanding) THE TRUE LIGHT.......THE TRUTH.......THE LORD.......GOD.

 

And as can be seen from his ongoing defiance against the word of GOD thus against GOD HIMSELF, the [foolish] boy hasn`t matured...

 

And that is his.......choice.

 

###Apparently, you are not aware of the following passage

 

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. [KJV]1Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel[NASB]

1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel[NIV]

 

###Here it is shown the intent is to do evil with satan leading the temptation. I do not believe Satan's intentions are good here. Where was God during this moment? Actually, God was in collussion with Satan in inciting David to take the census. Observe the following:

 

2 Samuel 24:21 Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

 

###Anonymous- Here you have two accounts of the same occurrence in 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles. Here are the questions for you:

 

1. Was it God or Satan or both who incited/provoked/moved David to take the census?

 

2. If it was God, then the Chronicler was in error; If Satan, then the 2 Samuel writer was in error...Who was in error?

2 Samuel 24:21 is a typo; otkroveniya meant 2 Samuel 24:1 which in the King James translation reads:

 

"Again the anger of THE LORD was aroused against Israel, and HE moved David against them to say, ˜Go, number Israel and Judah.`"

 

And the 1 Chronicles passage:

 

"Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel." (1 Chronicles 21:1)

 

GOD`S wisdom teaches those who have ears to hear:

 

"The fear of THE LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of THE HOLY ONE is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10)

 

Apostle Paul prayed the following for his brethren:

 

"Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in THE LORD JESUS, and love unto all the saints, cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; that the GOD of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of HIM: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of HIS calling, and what is the riches of the glory of HIS inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of HIS power toward us who believe, according to the working of HIS mighty power..." (Ephesians 1:15-19)

 

Collusion: Secret agreement or cooperation for a fraudulent or deceitful purpose.

 

otkroveniya`s [blind/ignorant] statement and conclusion:

 

Here it is shown the intent is to do evil with satan leading the temptation.... Actually, God was in collussion with Satan in inciting David to take the census.

---reveals a person, who, unlike Abraham (and David, and Isaiah, and Jeremiah, and Hosea, and Micah, and Matthew, and Mark, and John, and Paul, and all believers), does not have knowledge of/know personally, intimately, the great GOD of HIS word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.

 

There is no discrepancy or error here because both statements are true. Both THE LORD GOD and satan are involved in this scenario. What is at issue here, however, is the reason or purpose for each party`s involvement, and more precisely, their intent(ions) and motive(s).

 

In reading GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES we learn about GOD`S identity, WHO GOD is --- HIS attributes, characteristics, HIS very "nature."

 

Examples:

 

· HE is fair, just and righteous (Jeremiah 9:24; 23:5-6; Isaiah 45:21; Psalm 97:2, 119:142-144, 129:4; Acts 3:14; Hebrews 1:8-9; Ephesians 4:24).

· HE is faithful and true (Numbers 23:19; Deuteronomy 7:9; Isaiah 11:5; Psalm 36:5, 89:8; Lamentations 3:22-23; 2 Timothy 2:13; Revelation 19:11)

· HE is good (Psalm 33:5, 52:1, 100:5, 136:1a; Romans 2:4)

· HE is holy (1 Samuel 2:2; Isaiah 6:3; Psalm 145:17; John 17:11; 1 Peter 1:16-25; Revelation 15:4).

· HE is love (1 John 4:8,16)

· HE is loving and kind (1 Kings 3:6; Psalm 59:16, 86:5, 103:17, 136:1b; 1 John 4:8).

· HE is gracious and merciful (2 Samuel 24:14; Matthew 9:27-29; Luke 1:78; 2 Corinthians 1:3; Philippians 2:27; Hebrews 4:16; James 5:11; 1 Peter 1:3).

· HE is truth (Deuteronomy 32:4; John 14:6).

· HE is sovereign (Isaiah 46:10; Dan-iel 4:35; Ephesians 1:11).

 

When we read the entire text regarding David and the census we find that towards the end of David`s reign his attitude was one of pride and self-admiration for "his" achievements in bringing the Canaanite, Syrian, and Phoenician kingdoms into a state of vassalage and dependency on Israel. David was thinking more in terms of armaments and troops and "his" accomplishments than in terms of the mercies of THE LORD. THE LORD therefore, out of HIS love for David and his well-being, decided that it was time HIS creature be brought to his knees (and senses), where he would once again be cast onto the mercy of his CREATOR and cognizant of WHO, truly, is "in charge."

 

So THE LORD incited, as in provoked/urged (in the sense of granting permission/allowing through HIS permissive, not perfect, will) David to go ahead with his census in order that David learn/see/understand just how much good (or bad) it would do him as the only thing this census would accomplish would be to inflate the national ego (which is intimated in Joab`s warning against carrying out the census in 1 Chronicles 21:3), and for which, as soon as the numbering was completed, THE LORD chastened the nation with a disastrous plague resulting in an enormous loss of life; in fact the lives of 70,000 Israelites according to 2 Samuel 24:15.

 

In the same way that THE LORD incited, as in provoked/urged in the sense of granting permission/allowing through HIS permissive will HIS immature, stiff-necked whiney children their fill of quail (Numbers 11) when HIS perfect will was that their hearts be filled with gratitude and contentment for HIS salvation from their bondage to slavery (not to speak of free meals from Heaven).

 

In the same way that THE LORD incited, as in provoked/urged in the sense of granting permission/allowing through HIS permissive will HIS creatures` stubborn, willful insistence on a fallible [human] king (1 Samuel 8:5) when HIS perfect will was/is that HE, GOD HIMSELF, be their KING/SOVEREIGN.

 

In the same way that THE LORD incited, as in provoked/urged in the sense of granting permission/allowing through HIS permissive will a spirit of deception/delusion/falsivity to blind (to HIS truth) those who reject HIM (Thessalonians 2:11) when HIS perfect will is that HIS creatures love/obey HIS word/HIM WHO is THE [ABSOLUTE] TRUTH.

 

What about GOD`S adversary, satan? Why would he involve himself in this affair (1 Chronicles 21:1) if THE LORD GOD had already provoked/urged (in the sense of granting permission/allowing) David to commit the folly he had in his arrogant mind?

 

In reading GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES likewise we learn some things about satan. We know, for example, that:

 

· he is a created being, a [fallen] angel (Revelation 12:9);

 

We know he is a created being because THE WORD OF GOD WHO IS GOD [in the flesh].......JESUS.......WHO conquered him and his havoc, created all things, visible and invisible (Colossians 1:16).

 

· he is a liar and the progenitor (originator) of lies (John 8:44-45).

· he is a destroyer (Hebrew: Abaddon and Greek: Apollyon) (Revelation 9:11).

· he is a deceiver cast out of Heaven to earth (Revelation 12:9).

· he is a murderer (John 8:44-45).

· he is a rebel (Matthew 25:41; Luke 10:18; 2 Peter 2:4; Revelation 12:3-4, 9)

· he is THE LORD GOD`S adversary (Job 1:7, 12; Zechariah 3:2 - YLT).

 

Knowing who satan is then, and keeping this in view, we see that his reasons in this situation were entirely malicious, knowing full well that a census would displease THE LORD GOD as it is written in 1 Chronicles 21:7-8, and so he also incited, as in provoked/urged (in the sense of disobedience) David to carry it through.

 

This isn`t novel though, for there are a number of other occurrences in GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES where both THE LORD GOD and satan were involved in soul-searching tests and trials.

 

For instance, in the book of Job (chapters 1 and 2), we find a challenge to satan from THE LORD allowing/permitting satan to bring upon Job his (satan`s) calamities.

 

Knowing THE LORD GOD and HIS character, and knowing satan and his character, it is clear that THE LORD GOD`S purpose in this situation was to purify Job`s faith and to strengthen his character by means of discipline through adversity, whereas satan`s purpose was purely malicious, wishing Job as much harm as possible so that he would recant his faith in THE LORD GOD.

 

Similarly, both THE LORD GOD and satan are involved in the sufferings of persecuted CHRISTians according to 1 Peter.

 

Again, knowing THE LORD GOD and HIS character, and knowing satan and his character, it is clear THE LORD GOD`S purpose is to strengthen their faith and to enable them to share in the sufferings of JESUS in this life that they may rejoice with HIM in the glories of Heaven to come (1 Peter 4:13-14), whereas satan`s purpose is to "devour" them (1 Peter 5:8).

 

In the case of Apostle Peter`s three denials of JESUS in the court of the high priest, it was JESUS HIMSELF WHO points out the purposes of both parties` involvement when HE says in Luke 22:31-32, "Simon, Simon, satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

 

Both THE LORD GOD and satan were involved in the three temptations of JESUS during HIS ministry on earth.

 

And again, knowing THE LORD GOD and HIS character, and knowing satan and his character, it is clear THE LORD GOD`S purpose for allowing/permitting these temptations was for JESUS to triumph completely over the very tempter who had lured the "first Adam" to his fall through disobedience to THE LORD GOD/HIS word, whereas satan`s purpose was to deflect THE SAVIOR from obedience to HIS word and HIS Messianic mission in providing salvation and eternal life to all HIS creatures who would believe in/on HIM.

 

And finally the crucifixion of JESUS itself bears out yet another example where both THE LORD GOD and satan are involved; satan exposed his purpose when he filled the heart of Judas (a sitting duck, a perfect target and ally whose inclination, because of his unbelief, was, like the one who influenced him, already to do evil) with treachery and hate (John 13:27), causing him to betray JESUS. THE LORD`S purpose behind the crucifixion, however, was that JESUS, THE LAMB slain from the foundation of the world, should give HIS life as a ransom for many, so that once again the fallen, carnal, sinful creature would have the opportunity to enjoy the intimate, personal relationship lost at the very beginning, in the garden of Eden, and now enter into that relationship.

 

From these examples we see both THE LORD GOD`S and satan`s involvement in the affairs of humanity though with entirely different, in fact, completely opposite, intentions and motives --- satan`s motives in all these scenarios, including the census by David, were driven by malicious, malevolent intent, while THE LORD GOD`S motives in all these cases showed an entirely different intent, that of benevolence, good.

 

THE LORD`S motive is one with a view to eventual victory over bad/evil/wrong and its progenitor, HIS adversary, the rebel, satan.

 

Please note that in every case, satan`s so-called "success" was limited and transient, while in the end, THE LORD GOD`S eternal purpose was well served accomplishing and furthering substantially, HIS ultimate cause --- good. This is because THE LORD GOD HIMSELF, HIS character, HIS very "nature," is summum bonum: the chiefest/highest good.

 

It is wise to remember that THE LORD GOD`S authority/sovereignty extends over all HIS creatures, upright and fallen alike. Even in allowing (by/through HIS permissive, though not [HIS] perfect, will) HIS adversary/enemy, satan (and those he influences), to do that which he/they already desire(s) to do (choice; exercise his/their free will to disobey GOD/HIS word) --- evil, THE LORD GOD accomplishes HIS ultimate will --- good.

 

Unlike otkroveniya and his brethren, Joseph knew THE LORD GOD thus understood this well as seen in his statement to his brothers:

 

"And as for you, you meant evil against me; but GOD meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Genesis 50:20)

 

###If God is absolute good and His ultimate objective is for the good of His creatures, then where was His help in changing the wicked ways of His creatures in the following text? You will find they had no chance or opportunity to repent. Or is this God's way of providing his creatures with his ultimate objective?

Genesis6:1 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."[NKJV]

In the beginning...

 

"And out of the ground THE LORD GOD caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Genesis 2:9)

 

"And THE LORD GOD commanded the man, saying, ˜From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.`" (Genesis 2:16-17)

 

"And the serpent said to the woman, ˜You surely shall not die! For GOD knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like GOD, knowing good and evil.` When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate." (Genesis 3:4-6)

 

Like their progenitors before them, mankind has the GOD-given capacity of.......choice. The choices are simple and two --- for THE LORD GOD or against HIM. In other words, obedience to THE LORD GOD and HIS word/commandment/law or disobedience to HIM and HIS word/commandment/law. Unfortunately for them and their progeny (the entire human race which inherited the genetic defect called sin (and its nature) which is law-less-ness which is disobedience to GOD`S word which is [HIS] law), Adam and Eve listened to and capitulated to GOD`S adversary`s voice/word and chose the latter --- rebellion rather than accord --- and became, like the fallen angel and his minions --- enemies of GOD.

 

"Then THE LORD said to Cain, ˜Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.`" (Genesis 4:6-7)

 

Here again, Cain had the same choice as his brother Abel --- to do well or not to do well. In other words, listening to/obeying/loving THE LORD GOD and HIS word/commandment/law, or not, respectively; to sin (be law-less) or to master (mashal: to rule [over]; have dominion [over]; have power [over]) sin (law-less-ness) by/through obedience to GOD'S command/voice/word which is [HIS] law.

 

Choice......obedience or disobedience to GOD'S command/voice/word which is [HIS] law.

 

Time passes and man begins to increase in number (multiply) on the face of the earth, all the while choosing disobedience (the majority of the populace as there were exceptions, e.g., Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives) rather than obedience to THE LORD GOD and HIS word/commandment/law, and we arrive at Genesis 6:5:

 

"Then THE LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

 

Apostle Peter gives some insight into the contrast between the general population during that time, and a man who found favor in the eyes of THE LORD:

 

"For if GOD did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment, and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when HE brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly..." (2 Peter 2:4-5)

 

In contrast to the ungodly, Noah`s character is described as:

 

"...a just man, perfect (blameless) in his generations." (Genesis 6:9b)

 

How did Noah find favor or grace in the eyes of THE LORD?

 

The term "just" means made right in a moral sense---lawful, righteous. Since THE LORD GOD`S commands define righteousness (Psalm 119:172), obviously Noah kept GOD`S word/law sincerely and in a wholehearted manner (loving HIM thus HIS commands/words which is HIS law). Some may argue that "the law" was not in existence until Moses` time well beyond the years of Noah when it was written upon stone by the very finger of GOD (Exodus 31:18), yet 430 or so years prior to Moses we see that Abraham kept GOD`S commandments, statutes and laws as THE LORD HIMSELF disclosed to Abraham`s son, Isaac:

 

"And I will multiply your descendants as the stars of Heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed ME and kept MY charge, MY commandments, MY statutes and MY laws." (Genesis 26:4-5)

 

And if we go back a bit further and think about it, why was the rebel cast out of Heaven before he was cast down to earth?

 

What is the first commandment/word/law?

 

Correct. "You shall have no other gods before ME."

 

So who did the once beautiful, talented created being/creature [vainly/foolishly] think he was in his attempt to usurp THE LORD.......GOD?

 

Correct. Just as those whom he influences believe they can be or are.......GOD (e.g., mgr and the myriads like him).

 

Plainly and simply, this is called --- idolatry.

 

Why?

 

Because the truth of the matter is, there is no other "god" besides THE ONE LORD.......GOD, just as HE HIMSELF/HIS word states:

 

"'You are MY witnesses,' says THE LORD, 'And MY servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe ME, and understand that I AM HE. Before ME there was no GOD formed, nor shall there be after ME. I, even I, AM THE LORD, and besides ME there is no SAVIOR." (Isaiah 43:10-11)

 

"Thus says THE LORD, the King of Israel, and his REDEEMER, THE LORD of hosts: 'I AM THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST; besides ME there is no GOD. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for ME, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are MY witnesses. Is there a GOD besides ME? Indeed there is no other ROCK; I know not one.'" (Isaiah 44:6-8)

 

"I AM THE LORD, and there is no other; there is no GOD besides ME. I will gird you, though you have not known ME, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides ME. I AM THE LORD, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, THE LORD, do all these things.'" (Isaiah 45:5-7)

 

"'Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, THE LORD? And there is no other GOD besides ME, a just GOD and a SAVIOR; there is none besides ME. Look to ME, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I AM GOD, and there is no other.'" (Isaiah 45:21-22)

 

"Remember the former things of old, for I AM GOD, and there is no other; I AM GOD, and there is none like ME.'" (Isaiah 46:9)

 

"Yet I AM THE LORD your GOD ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no GOD but ME; for there is no SAVIOR besides ME." (Hosea 13:4).

 

Although GOD`S law would be written on stone over a millennia after Noah`s time, we know from HIS word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES that HE is fair (Jeremiah 9:24) and because HE is fair, HIS command/word which is [HIS] law, was known by HIS creatures from the very beginning else there would be no distinction prior to Moses` time between godly and ungodly men; the righteous and the unrighteous; the faithful and the unfaithful; the obedient and the disobedient; those who honored THE LORD and those who dishonored HIM, etc.

 

Back to Noah...

 

To say that Noah was "perfect" or "blameless" or "upright" in his generations is to say that Noah`s integrity emanated from keeping THE LORD GOD`S holy truth and will (expressed in HIS commandments/word). This is not to say that Noah never sinned (law-less)---he did---but when he did, he repented (ceased and desisted, and turned away from his law-less-ness/disobedience to GOD`S command/word which is [HIS] law).

 

Unlike the general population, which was arrogant and hedonistic, refusing to honor THE LORD GOD and HIS laws, Noah "walked" with THE LORD, which is to say that he lived by and in GOD`S ways (expressed through HIS commands/words) thereby staying close to HIM thus finding favor in HIS eyes.

 

The terms --- favor, just, perfect (blameless) and walked --- used in Genesis 6:8-9, all describe characteristics that endeared Noah to THE LORD and reveal what Noah was really like. Noah didn`t just believe in the existence of GOD; he believed what GOD said/spoke, HIS word, and that HIS way (expressed through HIS word) was right(eous). And as can be seen from the record, Noah was right(eous) in doing so and was saved from THE LORD`S judgment upon the disobedient/unrighteous/wicked.

 

The example of building the ark served to condemn the [ungodly] world. Noah didn`t directly condemn the world himself or even have such a desire; rather, the [ungodly] people of the world brought judgment upon themselves by dishonoring and disbelieving the warning messages Noah delivered to them (preaching righteousness in word and deed) from the GOD WHO made them. They had more than ample opportunity to repent (70, 80, 120 years) and internalize GOD`S command/word/law and apply it in their lives, but they chose not to. Noah, on the other hand, chose to do so. And his faithfulness and obedience stood as further indictment against the unfaithfulness and disobedience of those who chose to ignore and rebel against rather than hearken and listen to GOD`S voice (command/instruction/word/law).

 

In answer to otkroveniya`s question: Where was GOD`S help in changing the wicked ways of HIS creatures? Apostle Peter provides insight regarding this as well:

 

"For CHRIST also died for sins once for all, THE JUST for the unjust, in order that HE might bring us to GOD, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also HE went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient when the patience of GOD kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water." (1 Peter 3:18-20)

 

Notwithstanding HIS i-r-r-e-s-i-s-t-i-b-l-e grace, even in HIS sovereignty, THE LORD never forces anyone into loving thus being faithful to HIM; not then, not now, not ever. It wouldn`t be charity/love if HE did.

 

Again, upon hearing HIS voice/word, HIS creatures have the GOD-given capacity of choice....two:

 

1) To willfully and willingly, wholeheartedly, choose.......HIM (and obedience/faithfulness to HIM and HIM alone);

 

Or,

 

2) Not.

 

Period. There are no other options.

 

Some may take umbrage with the idea that the creature actually has a choice since it was JESUS HIMSELF WHO said:

 

"You did not choose ME, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of THE FATHER in MY NAME, HE may give to you. This I command you, that you love one another." (John 15:16a)

 

So does GOD choose man, or does man choose GOD?

 

The answer is...yes. It`s both.

 

In order for a person to become a believer and follower of THE LORD, he/she must choose to repent of sin (law-less-ness), and turn to CHRIST JESUS (believing in HIS meritorious work on the cross in their behalf) for forgiveness of his/her sin. The human will is most certainly involved in conversion. Yes, man chooses GOD. However, that is only half the story because GOD`S choice comes first. GOD must choose man before man is able to choose HIM because sinful man is in such bondage to sin that his/her heart/mind and desires must first be affected in order for man to make a choice --- for or against HIM. Thus it is true that the ones who choose HIM are those whom HE has chosen first.

 

And being freed from sin which is law-less-ness which is transgression/violation of/disobedience to GOD`S word which is [HIS] law, a believer now has the opportunity to make the right(eous) choice --- for THE LORD GOD/HIS word.

 

In fact, spiritual "maturity" involves making the [only] right(eous) choice/decision.......for THE LORD GOD/HIS word. Spiritual maturation is possessing [GOD`S] wisdom, i.e., the understanding that obedience to THE LORD/HIS word is love which is life which conquers separation from HIM which is death which is the penalty for disobedience to HIM/HIS word which is [HIS] law which is law-less-ness which is sin which is wrongdoing which is evil which is rebellion which is darkness. Rebellion is darkness and death (no LIGHT, no life); rebellion is the disobedient one`s, the fallen spirit`s, the rebel`s, satan`s (and all who follow him), domain.

 

Those who, like their MASTER before them, walk in obedience to thus in and with THE TRUE LIGHT, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, WHO IS GOD, however, have life = phileo: fellowship; and agape: love = a personal, intimate relationship/union with the LAW/LIFEGIVER HIMSELF WHO IS LOVE.

 

As every CHRISTian knows, the causality of mankind`s "fall" and subsequent maladies is --- disobedience to GOD`S word (which is [HIS] law).

 

Adam, a son of GOD, was disobedient to GOD`S word which is [HIS] law which is law-less-ness which is sin which is how sin/law-less-ness entered in whose penalty was/is death = separation from GOD WHO is love and life (1 John 4:8; John 14:6).

 

THE LORD.......GOD, in HIS incarnation, i.e., the "second man," the "last/final Adam," revealed to HIS creatures HIS idea of the perfect/mature "son." GOD.......THE SON (THE VERY WORD OF GOD WHO IS GOD) in HIS obedience to GOD.......THE FATHER`S word/law resulting in right(eousness), enjoyed companionship, fellowship, and a personal, intimate relationship/union with GOD.......THE FATHER which is love which is life.

 

Unlike the "first Adam" and his unwise and immature choice/decision to disobey/rebel against GOD`S word which is [HIS] law which is law-less-ness which is sin whose penalty is death = separation from GOD, the "last/final Adam," in WHOM the treasures of [GOD`S] wisdom and knowledge are stored (Colossians 2:3) --- JESUS --- made the wise, mature choice/decision in HIS obedience to HIS word which is [HIS] law thus was victorious over death = separation from GOD........THE FATHER, the victory being life (the opposite of death = separation from GOD) which is a personal, intimate relationship/union with THE LAW/LIFEGIVER HIMSELF WHO is life (John 14:6).

 

JESUS cried tears like blood in the Garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:43) because HE knew that on the cross, when HE, GOD.......THE SON, in HIS [sinless] humanity, taking upon HIMSELF all of HIS creatures` sins which is law-less-ness, in paying the penalty for law-less-ness/sin which is death (physical and spiritual), would be, for that moment in time, separated in HIS personal, intimate union with GOD.......THE FATHER, crying out "MY GOD, MY GOD why hast THOU forsaken ME?" (Matthew 27:46)

 

When Apostle Paul wrote:

 

"For CHRIST is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4)

 

---he did not mean GOD`S word which is [HIS] law is obsolete and no longer in effect. If he did he wouldn`t have written the following more than twenty-five years post JESUS` death and resurrection:

 

"...the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good" (Romans 7:12). And in verse 14, "For we know that the law is spiritual....", and in verse 25, "I agree with the law, that it is good." And in verse 22, "For I delight in the law of GOD according to the inward man." And in verse 25b, "So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of GOD, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

 

"The end of the law" in this passage in the original language is "the completion/fulfillment of the law." JESUS not only completed/fulfilled the law, HE is the very focus of the law because JESUS is the very incarnate word of GOD which is [HIS] law which is love which is life.

 

It is the carnal, unregenerate mind that thinks, now that JESUS has come, sin (law-less-ness) is forgiven, the slate is clean, the law is done away with, and it can resume doing that which it desires (which it misinterprets as "freedom") which is to repeat what caused it to become carnal and unregenerate --- disobedience to GOD`S word/commandment/law.

 

And it is this carnal, unregenerate mind that prevailed in mgr as his own words attest:

 

"In the tenth, now to that end, it is not necessary for us of the righteous men, to individually constrain ourselves in our lives on earth by the literal teachings, along with their various disciplinary submissions." (mgr book 8, article 23, verse 15)

 

Hence mgr`s blasphemous claims of DEITY which is idolatry which is in direct violation of THE LORD`S first commandment as well as polygamy which is adultery which is synonymous with idolatry in THE LORD`S eyes according to HIS word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES (Jeremiah 3:6-10, 23:13-14; Ezekiel 16:1-59).

 

The [born again in THE [HOLY] SPIRIT WHO IS GOD] spiritual mind, however, knows that faith in JESUS and HIS meritorious work on the cross which abolished the penalty of sin = death = separation from HOLY RIGHTEOUS GOD, did not do away with HIS word/commandment/law which, like HIM, exists.......eternally.......for HE and HIS word are one and the same. On the contrary, the spiritual mind loves/obeys thus establishes and fulfills HIS word/commandment/law which is freedom from unrighteousness which is evil which is disobedience to HIS word which is [HIS] law which is law-less-ness which is sin whose penalty is death which is separation from GOD, which is the reason for man(kind`s) "fall" in the very beginning and the plethora of maladies that plague mankind to date.

 

"Freedom" therefore is not separation from or abolishment of the word/commandment/law of GOD as the SCRIPTURALLY illiterate thus ignorant mgr practiced and preached (mgr - book 8, article 23, verse 15 above); on the contrary, freedom is obedience to thus establishment and fulfillment of GOD`S word/commandment/law because obedience to HIS word/commandment/law is obedience to HIM and HIS requisite for a personal, intimate relationship with HIM which is love which is life as it is written:

 

"And THE LORD your GOD will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love THE LORD your GOD with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live." (Deuteronomy 30:6)

 

"And behold, a lawyer stood up to put HIM to the test, saying, ˜Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?` HE (JESUS) said to him, ˜What is written in the Law? How do you read it?` And he answered, ˜You shall love THE LORD your GOD with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.` And HE (JESUS) said to him, ˜You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.`" (Luke 10:25-28)

 

"For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother`s [works were] righteous." (1 John 3:11-12)

 

What did Abel do that Cain did not do? What were Abel's "righteous" works?

 

ANSWER: Love for/obedience to GOD'S voice/word.

 

"For this is the love of GOD, that we keep HIS commandments and HIS commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3)

 

"And this is love, that we walk according to HIS commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it." (2 John 1:6)

 

LIFE = LOVE = walking according to THE LORD GOD`S commandments which is HIS word which is HIS law which is the message.......from the beginning.

 

JESUS, THE [PERFECT/MATURE] SON, the very WORD of GOD WHO IS GOD, WHO IS HIMSELF THE LAW/LIFEGIVER, said:

 

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill." (Matthew 4:17)

 

And those who follow faithfully in THE RIGHT(EOUS) WAY (John 14:6), in HIS footsteps, likewise do not abolish the law (GOD`S word); they establish [and fulfill] the law (GOD`S word) as the Apostle Paul wrote:

 

"Do we then make void (Greek: katargeo, meaning ˜destroy` or ˜abolish`) the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish (Greek: histemi, meaning ˜erect` or ˜make to stand`) the law." (Romans 3:31)

 

Faith does not abolish the law; faith establishes and upholds the law (GOD`S word/commandment/decree/instruction/teaching, etc.).

 

Establish: To set up; found; to bring about; generate; to place or settle in a secure position or condition; install; to make firm or secure; to cause to be recognized and accepted; to introduce and put (a law, for example) into force; to prove the validity or truth of.

 

Uphold: To hold aloft; raise; to prevent from falling or sinking; support; to maintain or affirm against opposition.

 

Again, what is the love of GOD?

 

"For this is the love of GOD, that we keep HIS commandments and HIS commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3)

 

And how does one love THE LORD GOD?

 

"And this is love, that we walk according to HIS commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it." (2 John 1:6)

 

And how is love, walking in HIS commandments, the message from the beginning, demonstrated? What does love (for GOD and one`s fellow man also created in GOD`S image) look like "in action"?

 

THE LORD GOD HIMSELF s-p-e-l-l-e-d it out for HIS creatures:

 

1. You shall have no other gods before ME.

 

2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image---any likeness of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, THE LORD your GOD, am a jealous GOD, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate ME, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love ME and keep MY commandments.

 

3. You shall not take THE NAME of THE LORD your GOD in vain, for THE LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes HIS NAME in vain.

 

4. Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as THE LORD your GOD commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of THE LORD your GOD. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and THE LORD your GOD brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore THE LORD your GOD commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

 

5. Honor your father and your mother, as THE LORD your GOD has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which THE LORD your GOD is giving you.

 

6. You shall not murder.

 

7. You shall not commit adultery.

 

8. You shall not steal.

 

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

 

10. You shall not covet your neighbor`s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor`s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor`s.

 

THE LORD GOD`S commandments/word is clear regarding HIS definition of love, and HIS definition/meaning leaves no room for HIS creature`s imagination and what he/she may think love is. HIS definition is s-p-e-l-l-e-d out in HIS recorded/written personal testimony and revelation aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES so there can and would be no misunderstanding.

 

Now compare the so-called "new ten commandments," presumably given by the same immutable GOD WHOSE commandments are listed above, to a person who fantasized himself as a modern day "Moses":

 

"In the first, now days everyone of such, must always in all places sing and pray Spiritually and not as lined out by the letter of the old world! [2 Cor. 3:6]

 

In the second, likewise everyone must associate Spiritually by the love of inner harmony!

 

In the third, for that reason everyone should beforehand displace themselves of their own boorishness and inborn natures; from disagreements with the father and mother; and be separated from marriages not of the promise!

 

In the fourth, everyone similar note! Boldly follow those footsteps in the Spirit of truth, and not by the letter that disregards the law!

 

In the fifth, everyone personally of that image, should without tarrying slay within themselves the last enemy of their natural parents---Adam and Eve---that being disobedience of the Holy Spirit!

 

In the sixth, it is a must to abide in the living Spirit and not by the literal judgement of hades and death!

 

In the seventh, in like manner, everyone of that semblance must individually await the new reformation of themselves and upon death, to quickly resurrect for the peaceful kingdom on earth for a thousand years!

 

In the eighth, thus God is an invisible Spirit and not the image of a figure formed in a body of sin!

 

Therefore, every righteous individual becomes to God a new heaven and new earth.

 

In truth, in those He Himself remains in His Holy Spirit, as the Father of all the heavens and Creator of all living things.

 

In the ninth, the Saviour is the only wisdom, being the Word of the Almighty God; that in all places delivers everything by the will of the One who sent Him, and forever transfers from soul to soul in those of the righteous, throughout the sanctified world!

 

In this regard, John speaks with clarity, that, ˜The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us.` Therefore by this, it is taught to us in the free Spirit; and not by blood shed in a fight. [John 1:14]

 

In the tenth, now to that end, it is not necessary for us of the righteous men, to individually constrain ourselves in our lives on earth by the literal teachings, along with their various disciplinary submissions.

 

Bearing upon this, with the present day has come the Spiritual kingdom and the forgiving of all iniquities and ignorance, with the only exception being the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and iniquitous marriages; in which at times you have conducted yourselves symbolically in the letter of wantonness*!

 

*Wanton: Immoral or unchaste; lewd.

 

To us in this present day, the Lord is the Spirit, leading us to understanding, in which we should always visibly reign by grace; and in the midst of this grace, without fail and completely, must subsist in that one and only, new burning commandment of love of both genders, equally and without exception by the kiss for always; however, not in ardent inosculation*.

 

*Ardent: Expressing or characterized by warmth of feeling; passionate.

 

*Inosculation: To unite (blood vessels, nerve fibers, or ducts) by small openings; to make continuous; blend.

 

After all, it is very simple and everyone knows himself well, that from time immemorial, the husband and wife are both as of one flesh. [Matt. 19:4, 5]

 

However, in case anyone does not heed all of my ten commandments that have been given by God, they will surely be my adversaries and at that hour be driven by myself out of Zion and beyond; straight to Babylon, in which he will burn timelessly in a brimstone, gehennic fire in unceasing torment and anguish for the unboundless age! Amen." (mgr - book 8 article 23 verses 1-22)

 

Now, THINK.

 

What is THE ONE LORD`S.......THE ONE GOD`S greatest commandment(s)?

 

"And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that HE had answered them well, asked HIM, ˜What commandment is the foremost of all'?

 

"JESUS answered, ˜The foremost is, ˜Hear, O Israel! THE LORD our GOD is ONE LORD; and you shall love THE LORD your GOD with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. The second is this, ˜You shall love your neighbor as yourself.` There is no other commandment greater than these.`" (Mark 12:28-31)

 

And again, what does love for THE ONE LORD.......GOD look like? How is loving THE ONE LORD.......GOD with all one`s heart, soul, mind, and strength demonstrated?

 

In the way that THE ONE LORD.......GOD HIMSELF prescribed:

 

1. You shall have no other gods before ME.

 

2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image---any likeness of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, THE LORD your GOD, am a jealous GOD, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate ME, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love ME and keep MY commandments.

 

3. You shall not take THE NAME of THE LORD your GOD in vain, for THE LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes HIS NAME in vain.

 

4. Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as THE LORD your GOD commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of THE LORD your GOD. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and THE LORD your GOD brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore THE LORD your GOD commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

 

REPEAT: Loving THE ONE LORD.......GOD is not in accordance with and to HIS creatures` idea(s) of loving HIM. Loving THE ONE LORD.......GOD is in accordance with and to HIS idea of loving HIM expressed through HIS commandment/instruction/teaching/word (which is [HIS] law).

 

Now, do any of mgr`s so-called "new ten commandments," which he claimed were "given to him by God," express the same immutable ONE LORD`S.......GOD`S first and foremost commandment --- love for HIM --- one`s CREATOR?

 

ANSWER: No.

 

One guess as to why none of these purported "new ten commandments" given to mgr supposedly "by God" make mention of the first and foremost, the greatest commandment --- to love one`s CREATOR.......THE ONE LORD.......THE ONE [and only] GOD.......with all one`s heart, mind, soul, and strength?

 

Well, think about it. Why would there be a need for THE ONE true GOD, YHWH, THE ONE [and only] LORD, if there were another, a "substitute," namely, maxim gavrilovitch rudometkin?

 

In other words, because mgr believed himself to be "God, Lord, Messiah/Christ, Spirit of Truth," THE ONE [and only] true LORD.......GOD, YHWH, was never in the picture.

 

In THE LORD`S book aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, this "substitution" and "supplantation" is called --- idolatry.

 

Also interesting to note in mgr`s "new tenth commandment" is the following:

 

"In the tenth, now to that end, it is not necessary for us of the righteous men, to individually constrain ourselves in our lives on earth by the literal teachings, along with their various disciplinary submissions.

 

Bearing upon this, with the present day has come the Spiritual kingdom and the forgiving of all iniquities and ignorance, with the only exception being the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and iniquitous marriages; in which at times you have conducted yourselves symbolically in the letter of wantonness!"

 

According to GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, the single unforgivable sin is --- blasphemy of THE HOLY SPIRIT (Matthew 12:31b). Period.

 

According to mgr, the unforgiveable sins (plural) are --- blasphemy of THE HOLY SPIRIT....and....iniquitous/wicked marriages.

 

Now why would a person who believed and preached "with the present day has come the Spiritual kingdom" be so concerned about iniquitous/wicked marriages (mgr`s term) when in the resurrection or "spiritual" KINGDOM, there is no giving nor taking in marriage as JESUS said:

 

"But JESUS answered and said to them, ˜You are mistaken, not understanding the SCRIPTURES, or the power of GOD.

 

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in Heaven." (Matthew 22:29-30).

 

(A closer examination of each of these "new commandments" of mgr`s will be made in another post.)

 

One of the "explanations" provided by mgr`s faithful ones regarding mgr`s blasphemous heretical claims goes something like this:

 

GOD`S truth was "lost" in the 4th century (with the formation of what they believe is the "first" council, i.e., Nicean in 325 A.D.) until it was "found" again by mgr in "the blessed 19th century." Until that time all people, including the early church fathers, as they are most commonly referred to, lived "in darkness."

 

But let us take a look at how a man called to be an apostle by THE ONE TRUE TRIUNE GOD communicated GOD`S truth to those "in darkness" during his day.

 

"And Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, ˜Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ˜TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.` What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

 

THE GOD WHO made the world and all things in it, since HE is LORD of Heaven of earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; neither is HE served by human hands, as though HE needed anything, since HE HIMSELF gives to all life and breath and all things; and HE made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek GOD, if perhaps they might grope for HIM and find HIM, though HE is not far from each one of us; for in HIM we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ˜For we also are HIS offspring.` Being then the offspring of GOD, we ought not to think that THE DIVINE NATURE is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

 

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, GOD is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because HE has fixed a day in which HE will judge the world in righteousness through a MAN WHOM HE has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising HIM from the dead.`

 

Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, ˜We shall hear you again concerning this.` So Paul went out of their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them." (Acts 17:22-34)

 

How did the Apostle Paul communicate GOD`S truth to those "in darkness?"

 

· Did he engage in any "maneuvers"?

· Did he attempt to create or re-create and enact an "image" of THE KINGDOM OF GOD/CHRIST/HEAVEN of which he was a citizen and member?

· Did he advocate THE KINGDOM OF GOD/CHRIST/HEAVEN as one styled after King Solomon`s wherein he (Apostle Paul) was king with a seven-ruler wife named Semiramida?

· Did he refer to himself as "God of all the faithful on earth," a "new" Jewish/Judean Messiah/Christ, 1st Lord and King of THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH? (Now, THINK. Who would ever think of being King of THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH/GOD HIMSELF? HINT: The one who thought so in Heaven when he attempted to usurp THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH/THE KING of Heaven and earth and all things.)

 

Of course not. No one except a blasphemous ignorant fool would even think such ludicrous thoughts much less speak them.

 

Apostle Paul simply and forthrightly preached the written and INCARNATE WORD of GOD.......THE GOOD NEWS. Period. And GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT did the rest.

 

Another "explanation" provided by mgr`s faithful ones in defense of their beloved hero`s blasphemous heretical claims is:

 

mgr was "representative" of GOD to the people just as Moses was, which his faithful ones attempt to support with the SCRIPTURAL passage:

 

"Then THE LORD said to Moses, ˜See, I make you a god to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet." (Exodus 7:1)

 

However, the context of the Exodus text, as is true with all of GOD`S word(s), makes it perfectly clear that THE ONE LORD/ONE GOD was not attributing deity to Moses here. The text says, "I have made you a god to Pharaoh." It does not say, "I have made you GOD." Being made a god to Pharaoh is not the same as being made GOD. It would be foolish to think so since there is only ONE GOD, THE LORD, as HIS own word(s) attest(s):

 

"'You are MY witnesses,' says THE LORD, 'And MY servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe ME, and understand that I AM HE. Before ME there was no GOD formed, nor shall there be after ME. I, even I, AM THE LORD, and besides ME there is no SAVIOR." (Isaiah 43:10-11)

 

"Thus says THE LORD, the King of Israel, and his REDEEMER, THE LORD of hosts: 'I AM THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST; besides ME there is no GOD. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for ME, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are MY witnesses. Is there a GOD besides ME? Indeed there is no other ROCK; I know not one.'" (Isaiah 44:6-8)

 

"I AM THE LORD, and there is no other; there is no GOD besides ME. I will gird you, though you have not known ME, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides ME. I AM THE LORD, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, THE LORD, do all these things.'" (Isaiah 45:5-7)

 

"'Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, THE LORD? And there is no other GOD besides ME, a just GOD and a SAVIOR; there is none besides ME. Look to ME, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I AM GOD, and there is no other.'" (Isaiah 45:21-22)

 

"Remember the former things of old, for I AM GOD, and there is no other; I AM GOD, and there is none like ME.'" (Isaiah 46:9)

 

"Yet I AM THE LORD your GOD ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no GOD but ME; for there is no SAVIOR besides ME." (Hosea 13:4).

 

Translators who have added the conjunction "as" [a god] (which shows cause and effect) in the Exodus 7:1 passage have done so to make that particular point more clear.

 

There is another aspect of the Exodus passage.

 

THE LORD GOD has quite a sense of humor, and we can find a lot of sarcasm in particular when confronting the false gods of this world. The event of the Exodus in particular was to do just that. This is clear from the following reference in Exodus 12:12 that THE LORD intended to "embarrass" the Egyptian gods:

 

"For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I AM THE LORD."

 

In fact, not only the last, but all the plagues reported were striking against one or more of the Egyptian gods and showing their helplessness.

 

Keeping in mind the truth that there is only ONE LORD, THE ONE GOD, when reading:

 

"And THE LORD said unto Moses, ˜See, I have made you [as] a god to Pharaoh..."

 

---one can see that THE LORD GOD in effect states that HE will make it so that Pharaoh must bow his (Pharaoh`s) will before Moses` GOD, THE ONE and ONLY [TRUE] GOD --- Moses` and Pharoah`s CREATOR, as much as he (Pharaoh) might think at the time that he (Pharaoh) is GOD, i.e. the absolute ruler whom everyone must obey (as mgr arrogantly and foolishly thought of himself). This Pharaonic pride of being GOD would be broken by THE ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD through Moses` words from THE ONE and ONLY LORD.......GOD to whose message Pharaoh would have to bow, acknowledging THE ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, YHWH, Moses` GOD, as superior.

 

mgr`s faithful ones also conveniently omit the text which follows immediately thereafter:

 

"You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land." (verse 2)

 

THE ONE LORD.......GOD commanded/instructed/spoke to Moses, and in turn, Moses (and Aaron) spoke to Pharaoh.

 

Unlike Moses, who spoke the words THE ONE [and only] LORD.......GOD instructed him to speak to Pharaoh, mgr claims that he himself is THE ONE [and only] LORD.......GOD.

 

"Remember, was not I your first Lord and King of the Spirit of truth?" (mgr 1:31:8)

 

"....this Spirit who is in person God and the King of new Israel." (mgr 8:15:2)

 

COLOSSAL difference.

 

JESUS said:

 

"Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. The good man out of his good treasure brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth what is evil. And I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned." (Matthew 12:33-37)

 

REPEAT: The problem is not with GOD`S word(s) aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. The problem lies with HIS [arrogant, blind, stiff-necked, stubborn] creatures, e.g., otkroveniya and his brethren, who refuse to hearken and listen to HIS voice and repent (cease and desist; turn away) from their rebellion against HIM manifested in their acceptance and belief in the blasphemous and heretical teachings/words of men whose inclination was also to do evil and whom THE LORD GOD via HIS adversary, satan, accommodated --- their beloved hero(es) of their "New Israel jumper/leaper" so-called "faith."

 

The truth of the matter is, regardless of whether one is a member of one of numerous Russian Protestant sects; regardless of one`s efforts to "preserve" one`s culture and its своеобразий; regardless of whether one prophesies or even resurrects people from the dead, and doing so --- all in the name of THE LORD GOD --- to the one(s) who does not have love for = obedience to THE LORD GOD thus HIS word which is [HIS] law, THE JUDGE of the living and dead (Acts 10:42) will say:

 

"...I never knew you; depart from ME, you who practice lawlessness." (Matthew 7:23; cf Psalm 6:8)

 

Again.......choice.......to believe, follow, and love/listen to/obey THE ONE LORD.......GOD/HIS word, or, not.

 

###Anonymous- Would I be disobedient to God if I would not fullfill the command to slaughter my son?

If otkroveniya were Abraham --- yes. But otkroveniya is not Abraham nor does he possess the faith or understanding of THE LORD GOD that Abraham possessed as is evident from otkroveniya`s ignorant questions and statements, which questions and statements reveal him to be a cynical agnostic and unbeliever. It is conceit that flatters otkroveniya while blinding him to the truth that he is faaaaaaaaaaaar from qualifying as "Abraham material" thus his personal comparison in this situation is malapropos. Which is why we find Abraham`s life and times recorded in the annals of SCRIPTURAL history as an example of faith (and works = obedience), and not otkroveniya`s.

 

Odd that otkroveniya, who claims to be a believer and follower of JESUS CHRIST, that is to say, a CHRISTian (Response to otkroveniya 22, Post #15), is unaware of the following:

 

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, ˜In Isaac your descendants shall be called.` He considered that GOD is able to raise men even from the dead; from which he also received him back as a type." (Hebrews 11:17-19)

 

---and the fulfillment of the prophetic revelation of the account of Abraham and Isaac which is the very foundation of CHRISTianity:

 

"For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten SON, that whoever believes in HIM should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

 

SCRIPTURE corroborating SCRIPTURE --- in perfect harmony.

 

Just as Abraham [prophetically] said to his son, Isaac, "GOD will provide for HIMSELF the lamb for the burnt offering, my son" (Genesis 22:8), GOD.......THE FATHER did in deed provide for HIMSELF the LAMB WHO was slain/slaughtered from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8) once for all and all time.......HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON through THE ETERNAL SPIRIT, THE HOLY SPIRIT.......JESUS of Nazareth.

 

Thus there is no need for otkroveniya or anyone else to "slaughter" their son or daughter because the truth of the matter is, their son or daughter is not nor ever will be THE PERFECT, SINLESS SACRIFICE.......GOD.

 

Again, Proverbs 9:10 says, "The fear of THE LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of THE HOLY ONE is understanding."

 

If the "spiritually profound and mature" disciple of mgr believed thus knew this basic/elementary/simple truth, he would realize/see/understand that his question is not only an irrelevant one, it is an ignorant one; ignorant in the sense of being unaware, uneducated, unenlightened, that is to say, lacking knowledge and understanding of THE HOLY ONE WHO IS THE TRUTH.

 

otkroveniya and his brethren have yet to learn the lesson that THE ONE [and only] LORD.......GOD, YHWH, cannot and will not be "dumbed down" and "reconstructed" to HIS creatures` specifications, and that HIS creatures need to "take HIM at HIS word" aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES --- which requires --- faith/belief/trust --- which Abraham possessed, and otkroveniya and his brethren do not.

 

As the record states, THE LORD GOD nacahed aka assayed aka proved aka tempted aka tested, and aka tried Abraham`s faithfulness and loyalty to HIM, and Abraham passed the test. The reasons Abraham passed the test is explained in the Hebrews passages:

 

1) It was by faith in THE LORD GOD, WHO HE IS, that Abraham offered up Isaac;

 

2) Abraham believed the promise THE LORD GOD made to him, that "In Isaac your descendants shall be called";

 

3) Abraham "considered that GOD is able to raise men even from the dead¦"

 

Faith: The assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

 

Believe(d): To have firm faith; to accept as true or real.

 

Consider(ed): To think carefully about; to form an opinion about; judge; to take into account; bear in mind; to show consideration for; to esteem; regard; to look at thoughtfully; to think carefully; reflect.

 

Unlike otkroveniya, Abraham knew THE ONE he served, personally, intimately, and demonstrated his faith(fulness) and love through his obedience to HIM and HIS command/word despite the fact that it may have been "over his head" as there is nothing in the text to imply that Abraham rationalized and attempted to circumvent THE LORD GOD`S commandment.

 

Unlike otkroveniya, Abraham didn`t have a problem with "not withholding anything" from THE LORD GOD, not even the offering up/sacrificing of his only begotten son to THE ONE WHO gave him his only begotten son because HE believed and knew THE ONE WHO gave him his only begotten son would raise his only begotten son from the dead as it is written in plain English, otkroveniya`s dominant language.

 

And unlike Abraham, who loved THE LORD and HIS word and walked in HIS ways thus was called the "friend" of GOD, otkroveniya stands in contrast as despising THE LORD/HIS word and rebelling against HIS ways thus is called the "adversary" of GOD, a child of darkness, separated from THE TRUE LIGHT --- which is the price one pays for capitulating to the master deceiver`s temptation to doubt and disobey THE LORD GOD/HIS word. One needs only to look at humanity`s progenitors to learn this elementary lesson (found in the very beginning, Genesis, of GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES) --- a lesson otkroveniya and his brethren obviously have chosen not to learn.

 

Again......choice.

 

###You expect me to give the benefit of doubt to the mistranslations, errors, innaccurracies, and ommissions/additions of God's Holy Bible[Pick your version] yet simultaneously you do not afford the same benefit of doubt applied to the perceived difficulties in the S&L?

Как говорять на Россий, "Здесь зарытая собака."

 

To use an old Russian adage, "Here [is the] buried dog."

 

In his own words otkroveniya reveals the "heart" of his and his brethren`s discontentment with THE LORD GOD thus HIS word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES and the purported "mistranslations, errors, innaccurracies, and ommissions/additions" (be it the King James or other translations as this is not the real issue) --- their "sacred cow" --- the s&l --- and its nacahing by THE LORD GOD/HIS word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, and the truth regarding the not-so-sacred findings.

 

In their ongoing rebellion against THE LORD.......GOD, otkroveniya and his s&l compatriots have deluded themselves into thinking that if they can convince themselves of the false notion that GOD`S [written] word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES is "flawed," their beloved hero(es`) false teachings will somehow be exonerated and "made right" (the operative word being "deluded").

 

The "perceived difficulties in the s&l" are only perceived difficulties to otkroveniya and his blind, deceived brethren. To those in whom THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, THE TRUE LIGHT dwells, however, there are no difficulties, perceived or otherwise. The falsehoods/untruths/lies are blatant. It is only otkroveniya and his s&l brethren who are bewitched by the [fallen] angel who disguises himself as an angel of light, who willfully choose to ignore the truth regarding their beloved hero(es).

 

For instance, on the former Yahoo forum, otkroveniya posted:

 

This questionable practice of the Khlysti was not a part of MGR's doctrine. His use of the "queens" was metaphorically representing the churches and the seven spirits of God. This we already covered earlier. Message #2924

Let us look at the words of JESUS to HIS one bride/wife, the church. Please notice JESUS` commendations and condemnations, and HIS reasons for approval and disapproval of each congregation`s works.

 

Revelation 2:1-7

 

"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ˜The words of HIM WHO holds the seven stars in HIS right hand, WHO walks among the seven golden lampstands.

 

I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for MY NAME`S sake, and you have not grown weary.

 

But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen, repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Yet this you have: you have the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of GOD.`"

 

Revelation 2:8-11

 

"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ˜The words of THE FIRST AND THE LAST, WHO died and came to life.

 

I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.`"

 

Revelation 2:12-17

 

"And to the angel of the church of Pergamum write: ˜The words of HIM WHO has the sharp two-edged sword.

 

I know where you dwell, where Satan`s throne is. Yet you hold fast MY NAME, and you did not deny MY faith even in the days of Antipas MY faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

 

But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of MY mouth.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.`"

 

Revelation 2:18-29

 

"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ˜The words of THE SON OF GOD, WHO has eyes like a flame of fire, and WHOSE feet are like burnished bronze.

 

I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing MY servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I AM HE WHO searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.

 

But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teachings, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Only hold fast what you have until I come. The one who conquers and who keeps MY works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I MYSELF have received authority from MY FATHER. And I will give him the morning star.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches.`"

 

Revelation 3:1-6

 

"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ˜The words of HIM WHO has the seven spirits of GOD and the seven stars.

 

I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of MY GOD. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

 

Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with ME in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before MY FATHER and before HIS angels.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches.`"

 

Revelation 3:7-13

 

"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ˜The words of THE HOLY ONE, THE TRUE ONE, WHO has the key of David, WHO opens and non one will shut, WHO shuts and no one opens.

 

I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept MY word and have not denied MY NAME. Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie---behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you.

 

Because you have kept MY word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him THE NAME of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from MY GOD out of Heaven, and MY OWN NEW NAME.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches.`"

 

Revelation 3:14-22

 

"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ˜The words of THE AMEN, THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS, the beginning of GOD`S creation.

 

I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of MY mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

 

I counsel you to buy from ME gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears MY voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with ME. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with ME on MY throne, as I also conquered and sat down with MY FATHER on HIS throne.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches.`"

 

THE HOLY SCRIPTURES regarding the seven SPIRITS of GOD:

 

"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from HIM WHO is and WHO was and WHO is to come; and from the seven SPIRITS WHO are before HIS throne;..." (Revelation 1:4)

 

"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: HE WHO has the seven SPIRITS of GOD, and the seven stars, says this: ˜I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." (Revelation 3:1)

 

"And from the throne proceed flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven SPIRITS of GOD." (Revelation 4:5)

 

"And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a LAMB standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven SPIRITS of GOD, sent out into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6)

 

Now compare mgr`s words to his [first set of] seven wives, which the spin doctors bracketed as [churches], which dhs asserts are prophetesses representing churches (Missing Text From The Spirit and Life Book, Post #52, dhs), which otkroveniya believes are churches and the seven spirits of GOD.

 

dhs` preface from his 1971 work copy:

 

"This section from the originals of Maxim G. Rudometkin starts at the beginning of that which is called the forteenth (14) book, third (3) chapter in the 1928 edition of the Spirit and Life. And continues until the end of the bk 14 manuscript. (Contains chap 3, 4, 2:1 - XIII, 7:1 - 3 3/4, & 27)"

 

"First, Stenkoo (Sterafina, the "senior prophetess" according to dhs), I will name Idessa, in that she, for the longest time, in my absence, was compelled to lie entirely [under the demon] for the sake of his demonic adultery.

 

And likewise, Varookhoo, I will name Akhvatoosya, in that she, in her own desire, because of her own adultery, stretched herself fully naked, completely for the demon.

 

Leksookhoo, I will name Pikhtoosya, in that she disobeyed me and found for herself, for the sake of powerful adultery, right to the very bottom, the pushy demon.

 

Doonookhoo, I will name Nakhmanisa, in that she, without my permission, the swine, stretched her ass willfully, right onto the demon.

 

Vasookhoo, I will name Akhtanisa, in that she, in carnal adultery, fell in love, willfully, directly with the demon.

 

Manookhoo, I will name Zhamelyoosya, in that she, willfully, adulterously, allowed [into herself] the hot demon.

 

Groonyookhoo, I will name Pertagoosya, in that she, not of her own initiative, with the love of her flogged ass lifted [it] up for adultery for a fat demon. All of you equally, bypassed me and strongly defiled yourselves in this eternal demonic adultery."

 

Unlike JESUS` assessment and evaluation of the seven congregations/churches (in Revelation), please notice that there is not a one commendation of mgr`s seven women/wives.

 

Seven churches? The seven spirits of GOD?

 

Well then, if this is the case as otkroveniya believes and stated:

 

This questionable practice of the Khlysti was not a part of MGR's doctrine. His use of the "queens" was metaphorically representing the churches and the seven spirits of God.... (Message #2924, Yahoo forum)

 

---who was mgr, metaphorically, and why did he curse the [first set] of the seven spirits of GOD, and then take unto himself a [second set] of the seven spirits of GOD? And is there a second set of the seven spirits of GOD?

 

When, however, one reads the pertinent text regarding mgr`s dissatisfaction with his first set of wives and his taking unto himself seven new wives, prefaced by dhs in his 1971 work copy:

 

"This section from the originals of Maxim G. Rudometkim starts at the beginning of that which is called the forteenth (14) book, third (3) chapter in the 1928 edition of the Spirit and Life. And continues until the end of the bk 14 manuscript. (Contains chap 3, 4, 2:1 - XIII, 7:1 - 3 3/4, & 27)"

 

---carefully:

 

"This is about all of my newly acquired wives who I will write about here, in detail, about their union and separation from me. To begin with, I`ll mention how they were first joined to me and how, at that time, we were publicly joined in wedlock, by God himself and the Spirit of His Christ, together with the blessing given by laying on of hands of all their parents and also the prophetic word of the witness and activity of the spirit through Emilian, the prophet, who publicly joined me to them by the union of our willing HOT LOVE, producing an eternal, unseparable, holy new covenant, like a key and its lock, and the immortal life in both our loins, for 1000 years."

 

For this reason, we, in his holy union, all ate and drank together and almost all slept in the same bed together and verily, in this holy matrimony, we all kissed and thrust together, producing great joy, as the spirit inspired us to do and as is befitting any everlasting wedlock. But the key was not put into the lock, for the time had not yet come for that. God had not yet told us to do that, just as in Adam and Eve's case in the Paradise. This was done by the serpent, but not by God, so I stood strong and did not allow their will, before the proper time, to taste of the forbidden fruit and did not give them the key. But I waited for all of that as God, by the spirit, had told me to do. To this then are many witnesses, almost all of my chosen people who believe in me. And they were all completely happy with these, my spiritual marriages, and willing to wait for intercourse with me, as I was their holy husband.

 

The first of these, my beloved wives, was Stenya and Varya and the rest like unto them, who now in my absence, inspired by Satan himself and without taking account of our eternal holy new marriage, almost all of them, suddenly, because of their defiled lustfulness, have lifted their adulterous tails to the dogs like a bitch in heat. And all of them took themselves husbands who are not their lawful husbands but adulterous sons of Satan in bodily form, for which reason in these god-despised mismatches, they now indulge in adultery, like unclean beasts or defiled swine, and have become demon-possessed, by God's will.

 

For this reason, any children born of them are cursed or like the bastard children of prostitutes and all of these unlawful children are consigned, by God, to everlasting death without chance of resurrection, as it is written, without respite. And anyone who, today, will beat them, God will make holy for it. It would have been better for all of you, my new wives, to have never known this, my new path, which is eternal for all who walk it rightly. For it is true, not false, just like an arrow, straight to Zion, destined. But you did not desire it but chose, instead, to go the way of adultery, like cattle with bulls or you with your cursed husbands. You have forgotten me, your God-annointed husband and king.

 

For you all know very well what my spirit always clearly told you that you would not seek another husband besides me and not to give your virginity or holy Eve-like chastity to any deceiving serpent but only to me, your Adam. For what you had secreted in you was meant only for me, your God-given husband.

 

For this reason, I am filled with wrath for you, for you have all defiled yourselves and joined yourselves with cursed demons everywhere and I can have patience with you no longer. Only because of your need for salvation will I change my curse upon you but your husbands and children will eternally be cursed of me, and them, I will wipe off the face of the earth. But you, I'll again receive eternally, as wives, so as not to gratify this evil spirit of Satan, or to say, Simon Rudakoff and Maxim Plenin and Vasili Sikitin, for I remember that you were my eternal wives and concubines, like King Solomon within his worldwide kingdom.

 

Although it is very repugnant and defiling this, your devilish evil, in which you, in my absence, allowed demons to be delivered into you, but I will clean all of this with the sword and fire, off of your outer man, but inwardly I will apply my own salve and heal you down there. Then, in the wrath of my spirit, for your defilement of me, through your demon-possessed adultery, I'll give you all different names¦not good names but perverted and even foul ones.

 

First, Stenkoo (Sterafina, the "senior" prophetess according to dhs), I will name Idessa, in that she, for the longest time, in my absence, was compelled to lie entirely [under the demon] for the sake of his demonic adultery.

 

And likewise, Varookhoo (Varya), I will name Akhvatoosya, in that she, in her own desire, because of her own adultery, stretched herself fully naked, completely for the demon.

 

Leksookhoo, I will name Pikhtoosya, in that she disobeyed me and found for herself, for the sake of powerful adultery, right to the very bottom, the pushy demon.

 

Doonookhoo, I will name Nakhmanisa, in that she, without my permission, the swine, stretched her ass willfully, right onto the demon.

 

Vasookhoo, I will name Akhtanisa, in that she, in carnal adultery, fell in love, willfully, directly with the demon.

 

Manookhoo, I will name Zhamelyoosya, in that she, willfully, adulterously, allowed [into herself] the hot demon.

 

Groonyookhoo, I will name Pertagoosya, in that she, not of her own initiative, with the love of her flogged ass lifted [it] up for adultery for a fat demon.

 

All of you equally, bypassed me and strongly defiled yourselves in this eternal demonic adultery.

 

For this reason, you are not worthy to receive, with me, the primary glory in Israel and to be called with the holy seven names, according to the count of the seven spirits of God, which had been appointed to you by me before the creation of the world. Verily, these names will be given to my other new wives who are undefiled virgins, but you, I appoint now to only please me in physical union, or to more directly say, with such pumping of your much-used, broken woman's stomachs. The children I will begat through you will be everlastingly blessed, as David did to his wife when she returned home to him.

 

But if any of you will not submit to me or have my children, then those, right now, together with their demon-husbands, I'll kill and I'll do the same thing with all those blasphemers and adulterers against this true spirit and those who hate me, the king of the world, like Simon and Levin, because of their sister, Denya, or like King David, because of his wife, Michal, or maybe even more harshly, as in David's 100th Psalm: 'For these adulterers, with others' wives, always have judgment of death placed on them by God Himself.' For as the holy Apostle Paul said, 'a [married] woman is tied to her living husband, by the law, until his death and only then can she be joined to another' [nor is she permitted to commit adultery with other men].

 

And now, because of you and what you've done, I must again, a second time, choose out seven new wives, all chosen, undefiled virgins, which, for eternity, will not know the bed of another husband but me. And so I, their new husband, King [their youlia], will place them over you like mistresses and queens according to the Psalm in which David sings about presenting a queen on your right, in luxurious raiment, and they will lead forth the king of virgins unto her, unto the house of the king and under the crown of the glory of all Israel....and immortality for all of us for 1000 years. And so I, in my day, with the aid of the holy spirit and the will of my God, will [immutably, unchangeably] give all seven of these, my new wives, eternal holy names according to the title of their new heavenly names, [equally] by the number of the seven spirits of God that eternally abide upon me."

 

---one sees that the context in which the seven spirits of GOD appear in this particular portion of mgr`s memoirs is that of mgr giving his new [second set of] women, his wives --- names, so-called "eternal holy names," after the count or the number of the seven spirits of GOD which mgr believed, according to his own words, eternally abided upon him.

 

In other words, his wives/the women are not metaphorically representative of the seven spirits of GOD as otkroveniya and his brethren have [blindly/ignorantly] chosen to believe; it is the count as in number as in quantity as in seven so-called "eternal holy names" mgr will give to his new [second set of] of seven women, his [second set of] seven wives.

 

If one believed the spin doctors` perversion of mgr`s wives as [churches] and/or dhs` perversion of mgr`s wives as prophetesses representing churches, according to mgr then, seven churches "eternally abided upon him."

 

Preposterous and ridiculous you say?

 

This is precisely what believers and followers of THE TRUTH.......JESUS CHRIST, i.e., CHRISTians, have been saying about mgr and his memoirs all along.

 

mgr meant what he said --- seven wives as in women --- in his own words, his "spiritual marriages" (plural). It was the panic-stricken so-called "elders," his faithful ones here in the States, who altered/edited/reconstructed and omitted mgr`s own words in attempts to "disinfect" his blasphemous, perverted writings for the community at large, and the reason the original manuscripts (the unedited, unsterilized perversion, e.g., the excerpt from dhs` 1971 work copy above) remain "hidden" from the community to date. And it is the reason dhs and his partners in wickedness deny and bald-facedly lie about these unedited, unsanitized perverted memoirs to anyone who inquires about them today. And it is because they themselves are guilty of "tampering" with mgr`s own words which they believe are "sacred scripture" that they believe and preach that THE LORD GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES has been tampered with. (Without going into great detail here, in the study of psychology, this is known as "blame projection.")

 

In his first letter to Timothy, the Apostle Paul wrote:

 

"For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in CHRIST JESUS. I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of GOD, which is the church of the living GOD, the pillar and support of the truth. And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; HE WHO was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in THE SPIRIT, beheld by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory." (1Timothy 3:13-16)

 

But THE SPIRIT explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which GOD has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by GOD is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of GOD and prayer." (1 Timothy 4:1-5)

 

The last thought in the 1 Timothy 3:13-16 text emphasizes JESUS as the mystery of GODliness revealed. It is important to note that this truth, JESUS.......the mystery of GODliness revealed, is what Apostle Paul emphasized as vital in knowing within the context of his referring to those who would "fall away from the faith" in 1 Timothy 4:1.

 

Those who would "fall away from the faith" are those who functioned at one time with a living, sensitive conscience, but who no longer had a conscience that was able to "feel" anything for it had been "seared" or cauterized.

 

Apostle Paul is alerting Timothy to the fact that he should not be surprised if he sees those calling themselves believers or CHRISTians, e.g., dhs, otkroveniya, etc., leaving [the] faith in JESUS [THE] CHRIST. These people would trust something or someone in addition to and/or other than JESUS, e.g., mgr et al.

 

The "later times" do not specify a "when," though it is something Timothy would witness in his lifetime. Apostle Paul had no doubt that this "falling away from the faith" would occur. He classified the source of the deceiving teachings as "deceitful spirits" and "demons."

 

Both THE LORD.......GOD and HIS adversary, the devil, work primarily through human receptive representatives. Apostle Paul describes those who serve satan`s purposes as liars, who function hypocritically and are totally insensitive to the evil they are doing.

 

With this in mind, let us look at another example of an excerpted text with the new names given by mgr to his new, second set of wives, which according to the spin doctors are [churches], according to dhs are prophetesses, and according to otkroveniya are the seven spirits of GOD.

 

Again, dhs` preface from his 1971 work copy:

 

"This section from the originals of Maxim G. Rudometkin starts at the beginning of that which is called the forteenth (14) book, third (3) chapter in the 1928 edition of the Spirit and Life. And continues until the end of the bk 14 manuscript. (Contains chap 3, 4, 2:1 - XIII, 7:1 - 3 3/4, & 27)"

 

Followed by the actual text:

 

"My first wife shall be named by me, Akhmetala, which in the Spirit is true comfort.

 

My second wife shall be named by me, Gelgelya, which in the Spirit is the way (or path) or freedom.

 

My third wife shall be named by me, Enfayela, which in the Spirit is peace and rest.

 

My fourth wife shall be named by me, Savakhanya, which in the Spirit is judgment of salvation.

 

My fifth wife shall be named by me, Yuliasaara, which in the Spirit is burning fire.

 

My sixth wife shall be named by me, Yuresa, which in the Spirit is unquenchable flame.

 

My seventh wife shall be named by me, Fetmagelya, which in the Spirit is love and truth."

 

According to the spin doctors, mgr`s seven wives are seven [churches] and/or prophetesses representing churches.

 

So, the first [prophetess/church] is.......true comfort.

The second [prophetess/church] is.......the way (or path) or freedom.

The third [prophetess/church] is.......peace and rest.

The fourth [prophetess/church] is.......judgment of salvation.

The fifth [prophetess/church] is.......burning fire.

The sixth [prophetess/church] is.......unquenchable fire.

The seventh [prophetess/church] is.......love and truth.

 

And according to otkroveniya, mgr`s seven wives are, (metaphorically of course), the seven spirits of GOD.

 

So, the first spirit of GOD is......true comfort.

The second spirit of GOD is......the way (or path) or freedom.

The third spirit of GOD is......peace and rest.

The fourth spirit of GOD is......judgment of salvation.

The fifth spirit of GOD is......burning fire.

The sixth spirit of GOD is......unquenchable fire.

The seventh spirit of GOD is......love and truth.

 

Now let us look again at the seven churches in the book of Revelation.

 

Revelation 2:1-7

 

"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ˜The words of HIM WHO holds the seven stars in HIS right hand, WHO walks among the seven golden lampstands.

 

I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for MY NAME`S sake, and you have not grown weary.

 

But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen, repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Yet this you have: you have the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of GOD.`"

 

Revelation 2:8-11

 

"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ˜The words of THE FIRST AND THE LAST, WHO died and came to life.

 

I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.`"

 

Revelation 2:12-17

 

"And to the angel of the church of Pergamum write: ˜The words of HIM WHO has the sharp two-edged sword.

 

I know where you dwell, where Satan`s throne is. Yet you hold fast MY NAME, and you did not deny MY faith even in the days of Antipas MY faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

 

But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of MY mouth.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.`"

 

Revelation 2:18-29

 

"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ˜The words of THE SON OF GOD, WHO has eyes like a flame of fire, and WHOSE feet are like burnished bronze.

 

I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing MY servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I AM HE WHO searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.

 

But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teachings, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Only hold fast what you have until I come. The one who conquers and who keeps MY works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I MYSELF have received authority from MY FATHER. And I will give him the morning star.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches.`"

 

Revelation 3:1-6

 

"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ˜The words of HIM WHO has the seven spirits of GOD and the seven stars.

 

I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of MY GOD. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

 

Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with ME in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before MY FATHER and before HIS angels.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches.`"

 

Revelation 3:7-13

 

"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ˜The words of THE HOLY ONE, THE TRUE ONE, WHO has the key of David, WHO opens and non one will shut, WHO shuts and no one opens.

 

I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept MY word and have not denied MY NAME. Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie---behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you.

 

Because you have kept MY word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him THE NAME of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from MY GOD out of Heaven, and MY OWN NEW NAME.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches.`"

 

Revelation 3:14-22

 

"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ˜The words of THE AMEN, THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS, the beginning of GOD`S creation.

 

I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of MY mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

 

I counsel you to buy from ME gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears MY voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with ME. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with ME on MY throne, as I also conquered and sat down with MY FATHER on HIS throne.

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what THE SPIRIT says to the churches.`"

 

Please note that the churches or congregations in the book of Revelation are made up of --- people --- numerous individuals who are members of JESUS` one body of believers.

 

Now, can any one of mgr`s faithful ones --- dhs, otkroveniya/B1CC41, disciple, etc. --- tell us:

 

Which church is.......true comfort?

Which church is.......the way (or path) or freedom?

Which church is.......peace and rest?

Which church is.......judgment of salvation?

Which church is.......burning fire?

Which church is.......unquenchable fire?

Which church is.......love and truth?

 

And let us look again at what is written in GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES regarding the seven SPIRITS of GOD:

 

"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from HIM WHO is and WHO was and WHO is to come; and from the seven SPIRITS WHO are before HIS throne;..." (Revelation 1:4)

 

"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: HE WHO has the seven SPIRITS of GOD, and the seven stars, says this: ˜I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." (Revelation 3:1)

 

"And from the throne proceed flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven SPIRITS of GOD." (Revelation 4:5)

 

"And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a LAMB standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven SPIRITS of GOD, sent out into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6)

 

Can anyone --- dhs, otkroveniya/B1CC41, disciple, etc. --- tell us who mgr was, metaphorically, and why he cursed the seven spirits of GOD?

 

And can any one of mgr`s faithful ones give answer as to why none, repeat, none of THE LORD GOD`S apostles, the very pillars of the Heavenly city Jerusalem, the one bride/wife of CHRIST JESUS, ever mention having "spiritual marriages" (plural), or "seven wives," or a "seven-ruler wife named Semiramida," and why not?

 

And now THINK again.

 

If mgr was himself a member of JESUS` one body, one bride/wife, the church, why would he be marrying seven [churches]?

 

Churches, prophetesses, and the seven spirits of GOD?

 

Not according to GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.

 

Lies, hypocrisy and total insensitivity to evil/wrong?

 

Most definitely according to GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.

 

###When you finish your posturing and hand wringing, how about addressing the following Scriptural contradictions and errors:

 

Exodus 20:16 Do not give false testimony against your neighbor.

Psalm 101:I will not allow deceivers to serve in my house,

and liars will not stay in my presence

 

1 Kings 22:22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.

" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.

" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

 

23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

Again, no contradiction, no error, only biased/prejudiced/selective reading and hearing coupled with a lack of discernment and understanding [of THE LORD GOD] by the reader, i.e., otkroveniya. (And certainly no posturing and hand wringing, only sympathy and sorrow aroused by the misfortune or suffering of another aka pity for otkroveniya and his (s&l) brethren.)

 

As was mentioned earlier, THE LORD GOD incites as in provokes/urges in the sense of permitting/allowing through HIS permissive will a spirit of deception/delusion/falsivity to blind those who willfully and stubbornly reject HIS word which is [HIS] truth (2 Thessalonians 2:11) because HIS perfect will is that HIS creatures love/obey HIS word/HIM WHO IS [ABSOLUTE] TRUTH.

 

And it is with this truth in mind that we understand what transpires in the passages from 1 Kings above and why.

 

1 Kings begins with David in his old age and tells of his death, the golden age of Solomon`s reign, how the nation divided into two kingdoms, and their eventual captivity by heathen powers.

 

GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES tells us that Solomon is known as being a great and wise king. After Solomon prayed to THE LORD GOD for the ability to help others, YHWH gave him wisdom that would set him apart for all times. Solomon`s wisdom [would] exceed those before and after him.

 

Unlike THE ONE AND ONLY INFALLIBLE, PERFECT MONARCH, THE LORD.......GOD, YHWH, however, Solomon, like all human [fallible] kings, was not perfect. His reign was filled with violations of GOD`S word/law. Solomon accumulated a large amount of wealth and "was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth" (1 Kings 10:23). Mass accumulation of wealth was prohibited by GOD as recorded in Deuteronomy 17:17b as was the accumulation of large numbers of horses (verse 16a) as was multiple marriages (verse 17a). According to 1 Kings 11:1-3, Solomon had seven hundred wives (princesses) and three hundred concubines --- "foreign" (unbelievers) women (Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites) "from the nations concerning which THE LORD had said to the sons of Israel, 'You shall not associate with them, neither shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods`" (verse 2) whom he "loved." Because of his wives, Solomon built temples to gods such as Chemosh, as well as many other foreign deities, and burned incense and sacrificed to those gods (1 Kings 11:7-8).

 

Again, this is in direct violation of THE ONE LORD'S.......THE ONE GOD`S command/word, which is [HIS] law:

 

"You shall have no other gods before ME." (Deuteronomy 5:7)

 

And in 1 Kings 11:9-40 we see the consequences/punishment Solomon received as a result of his disobedience to/violation of GOD`S word which is [HIS] law which prohibits adultery (polygamy) and idolatry which are synonymous in THE LORD'S eyes (Jeremiah 3:6-10, 23:13-14; Ezekiel 16:1-59).

 

Idolatry: Worship of idols; blind or excessive devotion to something.

 

Adultery: Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

 

Idolatry is like adultery in that the same attitude of covenant disloyalty/unfaithfulness lies behind both sins.

 

From Genesis to Revelation THE LORD.......GOD always draws HIS people`s attention to.......HIMSELF; not to personal holiness or social justice or any of the other good things that stem from a right(eous) relationship with HIM, but to.......GOD HIMSELF. When HIS people`s attention wanders from HIM, HE`S quick to draw them back.

 

This attribute of GOD is known as HIS "jealousy." It is a description of HIS DIVINE nature. By HIS very nature, HE desires, demands, and deserves exclusive worship and allegiance.

 

In 1 Kings 18, this is s-p-e-l-l-e-d out through the prophet Elijah with devastating clarity:

 

"Elijah went before the people and said, ˜How long will you waver between two opinions? If THE LORD is GOD, follow HIM; but if Baal is GOD, follow him." (1 Kings 18:21)

 

The point here is that the Israelites had not completely deserted THE [ONE] LORD.......GOD. They still worshipped HIM, but they also worshipped another "god," Baal. That half-commitment was not good enough for THE LORD GOD WHO demands all or nothing as seen later in THE LORD GOD`S message to the Laodicean church:

 

"So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of MY mouth." (Revelation 3:16)

 

A believer cannot worship both THE ONE [and only] LORD.......GOD and someone or something else. GOD`S jealousy is not something to be trifled with. THE LORD GOD does not hide the reason HE wants HIS creatures to remain faithful only to HIM. In Exodus 20:5, immediately following the commandment not to have idols, HE says, "...for I, THE LORD your GOD, am a jealous GOD, punishing the children for the sin of their fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate ME..."

 

Jealousy is usually thought of as an adverse, ugly emotion associated with envy or covetousness. However, there is also an absolutely right(eous) kind of jealousy --- that of vigilance in guarding something and intolerance of disloyalty or infidelity. The classic example is of a husband and wife (the paradigm of THE LORD GOD and HIS bride/wife, the church) --- each of them is, in the right(eous) sense, jealous for the other. Neither will share the other with anyone else; the very idea is abhorrent to them. In the same way, GOD will not accept the idea that HE has to share HIS creatures` passion and affection with anyone or anything else. GOD has exclusive love for those HE calls HIS own and HE demands the same from them.

 

And it is for this reason that:

 

"...THE LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from THE LORD, the GOD of Israel, WHO had appeared to him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what THE LORD had commanded.

 

So THE LORD said to Solomon, ˜Because you have done this, and you have not kept MY covenant (1 Kings 6:12-13) and MY statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant. Nevertheless I will not do it in your days for the sake of your father David, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of MY servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen.`" (1 Kings 11:9-13)

 

And true to HIS word, THE LORD did what HE said:

 

"Then THE LORD raised up an adversary to Solomon, Hadad the Edomite¦" (1 Kings 11:14a)

 

"GOD also raised up another adversary to him, Rezon the son of Eliada¦" (1 Kings 11:23a)

 

"So he (Rezon) was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, along with the evil that Hadad did; and he abhorred Israel..." (1 Kings 25a)

 

"Then Jeroboam the son of Nebat, an Ephraimite of Zeredah, Solomon`s servant, whose mother`s name was Seruah, a widow, also rebelled against the king." (1 Kings 11:26)

 

And so on......throughout the books of the Kings.

 

After Solomon`s death, the kingdom was split into Israel in the north and Judah in the south due to the revolt of Jeroboam. The Northern Kingdom of Israel became home to many of the most disreputable and evil kings in history, one of whom was Jeroboam, who built temples (in Dan and Bethel when there was to be only one temple: in Jerusalem) purportedly "to YHWH" but who placed golden calves in these temples and appointed priests who were not Levites, again, in violation of GOD`S word which is [HIS] law.

 

Another king, Ahab, the seventh king of Israel, was considered one of the worst and most evil kings in history. He did more evil in the eyes of THE LORD than any king before him (1 Kings 16:30). He was responsible for building a temple to Baal and setting up an Asherah, both of which were prohibited in Deuteronomy 12. He married a "foreign" woman, Jezebel of Tyre, who was a Baal worshipper.

 

Intermingling with "foreigners" (unbelievers) was expressly forbidden because there was concern that they would turn the Israelites` hearts away from YHWH (Ezra 10:2; Nehemiah 13:27).

 

Those who have fellowship with or worship other gods/idols (people, things, etc.) provoke GOD to jealousy because when this is done a violation of HIS nature has taken place. Apostle Paul asks the question with respect to partaking of THE LORD`S table, "...do we provoke THE LORD to jealousy? We are not stronger than HE, are we?` It is a grave (pun intended) mistake for one to think that he or she can worship something other than GOD and not falter in life. Those who think that low of GOD must seriously consider if they are stronger than HE is. It is very dangerous to provoke GOD`S anger. If one does then one will have to deal with HIS power, and no one, repeat, no one, is a "match" for HIM.

 

In Colossians 3:5 the Apostle Paul likens immorality to idolatry because GOD`S word which is [HIS] law is set aside in order to gratify the flesh.

 

In his letter to the CHRISTians living in Corinth, Apostle Paul wrote regarding Israel`s mistakes and how to avoid making them.

 

"For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was CHRIST.

 

Nevertheless, with most of them GOD was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

 

Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved.

 

And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, ˜The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.` (cf Exodus 32:6b)

 

Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try THE LORD, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.

 

Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.

 

Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

 

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and GOD is faithful, WHO will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it.

 

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry." (1 Corinthians 10:1-14)

 

Again, GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES likens idolatry unto adultery and vice versa. (Jeremiah 3:6-10, 23:13-14; Ezekiel 16:1-59)

 

Thus in light of the truths of GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES likening idolatry unto adultery and vice versa, we can see that the following are foolish, ignorant words of an unenlightened person who lacks knowledge and understanding of THE LORD/HIS word:

 

###The problem you have here, Grace, is to prove that God did not give Solomon a free pass to have sexual intercourse with his harem. The Lord God did indeed give him (Solomon) a free pass to sin sexually. The actual sin God rebuked Solomon for was idolatry e.g. worshipping other gods. (Former Yahoo forum, Message 2857, otkroveniya)

If otkroveniya believed thus knew THE LORD GOD/HIS word he would understand that there is no difference between Solomon's sins of idolatry and adultery (polygamy) because again, idolatry is like adultery and adultery like idolatry in that the same attitude of covenant disloyalty/unfaithfulness lies behind both sins.

 

As mentioned earlier, HIS creatures have the GOD-given choice, one of two......for THE LORD or against HIM. Solomon chose to go up against THE LORD by ignoring and violating HIS commands/decrees/instructions/words, i.e., [HIS] law, the first of which is not to have any other gods before HIM, THE ONE TRUE TRIUNE GOD, and not to commit adultery (polygamy). The consequences Solomon suffered as a result of his defiance against THE LORD GOD are recorded in HIS word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES for all to see and learn. Solomon was without excuse; he knew the word of THE LORD prohibiting the multiplication of horses, wives, etc... but chose to disregard thus violate HIS commandments. And he paid the price as is evident in his biography.

 

Individuals like mgr and his faithful followers, who blindly/foolishly/ignorantly thought/think emulating King Solomon and his polygamous lifestyle was/is acceptable to THE LORD GOD either were/are unaware of or willfully chose/choose to ignore Apostle Paul`s clarification with respect to THE LORD GOD`S position regarding HIS creatures` sinful ways in times past:

 

"And in the generations gone by HE permitted all the nations to go their own ways..." (Acts 14:16).

 

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, GOD is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because HE has fixed a day in which HE will judge the world in righteousness through a MAN WHOM HE has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising HIM from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).

 

Again......choice.

 

###Anonymous- Do rabbits and hares chew cud?

 

Leviticus 11: 5And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 6And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you.[ESV]Levicus 11:6 the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; [NASB]

 

According to Wikipedia;

 

Rabbits are herbivores who feed by grazing on grass, forbs, and leafy weeds. In addition, their diet contains large amounts of cellulose, which is hard to digest. Rabbits solve this problem by passing two distinctive types of feces: hard droppings and soft black viscous pellets, the latter of which are immediately eaten. Rabbits reingest their own droppings (rather than chewing the cud as do cows and many other herbivores) in order to fully digest their food and extract sufficient nutrients.

 

Regards, RV22.

GOD`S word(s) aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES teaches:

 

"You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, that what is made should say to its maker, ˜HE did not make me`; or what is formed say to HIM WHO formed it, ˜HE has no understanding.`" (Isaiah 29:16)

 

WHO created/formed all things, including the hare and rabbit?

 

ANSWER: THE CREATOR.......GOD.

 

WHO IS OMNISCIENT (all-knowing) --- the creature or THE CREATOR?

 

ANSWER: THE CREATOR.

 

So WHO knows best regarding HIS creatures/creation?

 

Correct. THE CREATOR.......GOD.

 

WHO instructed Moses to record knowledge regarding the hare and rabbit?

 

Correct. THE CREATOR.......GOD.

 

Now please notice what otkroveniya highlighted (in the excerpt from Wikipedia above) in his attempt to disprove the truths of GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, namely, the two passages, Leviticus 11:6 and Deuteronomy 14:7.

 

And why does otkroveniya desire to disprove GOD`S word/GOD HIMSELF?

 

Because GOD`S word/GOD HIMSELF exposes otkroveniya`s beloved hero`s anti-SCRIPTURAL thus anti-GODly words. And this infuriates otkroveniya who has willfully and wrongfully chosen to believe and defend his anti-GODly beloved hero.

 

Again, if otkroveniya gave the benefit of [his] doubt to THE LORD.......GOD thus HIS word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, and from that vantage point researched the subject matter, he would have found, in the same Wikipedia article from which he presented the above excerpt, the following:

 

"Rabbits are hindgut digesters. This means that most of their digestion takes place in their large intestine and caecum. In rabbits, the cecum is approximately 10 times bigger than the stomach, and it, along with the large intestine, makes up roughly 40% of the rabbit`s digestive tract. Cecotropes, sometimes called "night feces," come from the cecum and are high in minerals, vitamins and proteins that are necessary to the rabbit`s health. Rabbits eat these in order to meet their nutritional requirements. This process allows rabbits to extract the necessary nutrients from their food.

 

Rabbits are herbivores who feed by grazing on grass, forbs, and leafy weeds. In addition, their diet contains large amounts of cellulose, which is hard to digest. Rabbits solve this problem by passing two distinctive types of feces: hard droppings and soft black viscous pellets, the latter of which are immediately eaten. Rabbits reingest their own droppings (rather than chewing the cud as do cows and many other herbivores) in order to fully digest their food and extract sufficient nutrients.

 

Rabbits graze heavily and rapidly for roughly the first half hour of a grazing period (usually in the late afternoon), followed by about half an hour of more selective feeding. In this time, the rabbi will also excrete many hard faecal pellets, being waste pellets that will not be reingested. If the environment is relatively non-threatening, the rabbit will remain outdoors for many hours, grazing at intervals. While out of the burrow, the rabbit will occasionally reingest its soft, partially digested pellets; this is rarely observed, since the pellets are reingested as they are produced. Reingestion is most common within the burrow between 8 o`clock in the morning and 5 o`clock in the evening, being carried out intermittently within that period.

 

Hard pellets are made up of hay-like fragments of plant cuticle and stalk, being the final waste product after redigestion of soft pellets. These are only released outside the burrow and are not reingested. Soft pellets are usually produced several hours after grazing, after the hard pellets have all been excreted. They are made up of micro-organisms and undigested plant cell walls.

 

The chewed plant material collects in the large cecum, a secondary chamber between the large and small intestine containing large quantities of symbiotic bacteria that aid in the digestion of cellulose and also produce certain B vitamins. The pellets are about 56% bacteria by dry weight, largely accounting for the pellets being 24.4% protein on average. These pellets remain intact for up to six hours in the stomach, the bacteria within continuing to digest the plant carbohydrates. The soft feces form here and contain up to five times the vitamins of hard feces. After being excreted, they are eaten whole by the rabbit and redigested in a special part of the stomach. This double-digestion process enables rabbits to utilize nutrients that they may have missed during the first passage through the gut and thus ensures that maximum nutrition is derived from the foot they eat. This process serves the same purpose within the rabbit as rumination does in cattle and sheep.

 

Rabbits are incapable of vomiting due to the physiology of their digestive system."

 

It is true that rabbits are herbivores as are cows, sheep, and goats. And like the cow, sheep, and goat, a rabbit`s diet contains a high proportion of crude fiber. The cellulose of the fiber has to be broken down before complete digestion and absorption can take place. To facilitate this, the rabbit has a comparatively large caecum and colon. In order to obtain the maximum nutriment from its food the rabbit goes through a digestive process called coprophagy aka refection aka double-digestion (Wikipedia`s term), which according to the Wikipedia article, serves the same purpose within the rabbit as rumination does in cattle and sheep --- passing certain of its intestinal contents through the system twice.

 

It is not an error of SCRIPTURE that rabbits and hares "chew the cud" (Leviticus 11:6; Deuteronomy 14:7). Indeed, rabbits and hares do "chew the cud," in an even more specific sense.

 

Rumination: The act of pondering; meditation; the act or process of chewing cud.

 

The term rumination as it relates to the issue at hand is "the act or process of chewing cud," a process in which animals such as cows, sheep and goats (aka ruminants) hardly chew their food when first eaten, then swallow it into one of four compartments of the stomach, the rumen (the other three are the reticulum, omasum, and abomasum), where the food is partially digested, after which it is regurgitated, chewed again, and swallowed into a different compartment.

 

When a cow takes a bite of grass and swallows it, the culture of microorganisms that exists in the first compartment (rumen), digests the grass and converts much of it into necessary nutrients for the cow. The cow then brings the microorganisms and leftover grass back into the mouth, one mouthful at a time. The cow chews it and sends it on through the remainder of the digestive tract. In this way the cow really doesn't subsist directly on grass alone, but also on the protozoa and bacteria that is bred in the rumen.

 

The process of digestion of grass by microorganisms is referred to as fermentation, and it occurs in many other animals besides the cloven-hoofed ruminating animals. Special forestomachs for fermentation are also found in other of GOD`S creatures, e.g., kangaroos, whales, dugongs, hippopotamus, sloths, and colobid monkeys. Other modifications of the stomach or some part of the intestines to provide a fermentation chamber are found in rodents, rabbits and hares, gallinaceous birds, horses, hyrax, and in mallards.

 

As the Wikipedia article stated, some herbivorous animals consume part of their own feces, which contain partially digested food, thus recovering fermentation products that have passed through the digestive tract. This process of reingestion of feces occurs in many rodents and in all genera of hares and rabbits. Reingestion of feces is an especially well-developed practice in lagomorphs (rabbits and hares) and is important for their adequate nutrition.

 

And as the Wikipedia article also stated, lagomorphs (rabbits and hares) produce two kinds of fecal pellets, produced at different times during the day. When the animals are active and feeding they produce the familiar hard pellets. When they cease their activity and retire to their burrows or resting areas, they begin producing soft pellets, which they eat as soon as they are passed. Rabbits reingest 54-82% of their feces. The soft pellets are composed of material from the fermentation chamber, which in the lagomorphs is located in the cecum, a blind pouch at the beginning of the large intestine. The soft pellets are composed mainly of bacteria, mixed with some plant material, and each pellet is enclosed in a proteinaceous membrane secreted posterior to the colon. These tough membranes remain intact for at least six hours after reingestion. When swallowed they pass to the fundus portion of the stomach, where they remain for several hours. Other food that is swallowed moves past the accumulation of soft pellets and goes on through the digestive tract. The membranes around the pellets and a buffering solution in the pellets control the pH, so that fermentation continues in the pellets even though the rest of the stomach is acid.

 

The process of cecal fermentation and reingestion helps the rabbit in several ways. Amino acids and proteins are synthesized by the bacteria in the cecum, using nonprotein nitrogen (e.g., urea). Amino acids are absorbed directly through the walls of the cecum and provide 4.4-21.8% of the animal's daily energy requirement. Proteins synthesized in the cecum are carried to the stomach in the soft pellets. This protein is important to the nutrition of the rabbit. Experiments have shown that nitrogen balance in the rabbit was reduced 50% if soft feces were not eaten. Fermentation and reingestion also improve utilization of sodium and potassium and provide 83% more niacin, 100% more riboflavin, 165% more pantothenic acid, and 42% more vitamin B12 than would be available if soft feces were not consumed.

 

Now is this digestive process in hares and rabbits analogous to the rumination, or cud chewing, in cows, and sheep?

 

According to the same article from Wikipedia:

 

"This double-digestion process enables rabbits to utilize nutrients that they may have missed during the first passage through the gut and thus ensures that maximum nutrition is derived from the food they eat. This process serves the same purpose within the rabbit as rumination does in cattle and sheep."

 

But otkroveniya deliberately and willfully chose to overlook and omit "the rest of the story" because the entire story would shed a completely different light on the subject matter proving the error of otkroveniya`s [biased] way.

 

Now there are both similarities and differences between the two processes. The rabbits are anatomically different in that they do not have a four-part stomach with a rumen, and the material that reaches their fermentation chamber has already been chewed and partially digested. Cows and rabbits are similar in that they both have a fermentation chamber with microorganisms that digest otherwise indigestible plant material and convert it to nutrients. Some of the rabbit microorganisms are different from those in cows, but many of them are the same or similar. Both cows and rabbits also have a mechanism to pass the contents of their fermentation chamber back to the mouth and then on through the digestive tract. The only difference between cud chewing by cows, sheep, and goats, and coprophagy (aka refection) or double-digestion (Wikipedia`s term) by the lagamorph is the point in the digestive tract at which nutrients are expelled and then placed back into the mouth.

 

The fundus (bottom) of the lagomorph`s stomach, loaded with soft pellets, is analogous to the rumen of sheep and cattle thus rumination should not be defined from an anatomical point of view, that is to say, the presence of a four-part stomach, but on the presence of an adaptation for breeding bacteria to improve food.

 

If the ancient Hebrews defined "cud-chewing" as that process where partially digested vegetation was re-chewed by an animal for easier re-digestion (and that is a very specific and scientific definition), the hare and rabbit fit here quite nicely. Which is precisely the case in this situation.

 

In the original language of the Old Testament, Hebrew, the phrase for "chew the cud" simply means "raising up what has been swallowed." The phrase translated "chew the cud" in the King James Version is more exactly "bring up the cud."

 

Skeptics will argue that this phrase "bring up the cud" means, in an exclusive sense, regurgitation, which is the reason [the skeptic] otkroveniya highlighted the sentence(s) he did. However, when we look at the full phrase, which is, "maketh the cud to come up," and the meaning of the words in the original language in which it written, Hebrew, we gain a better understanding of what the writer wrote.

 

The Hebrew word used here for "cud" is gerah. It is used nowhere in the Old Testament besides these verses in Leviticus and Deuteronomy thus it is in this context that its application must be considered.

 

When we do a brief word study of this term we find it, along with related terms, which shed further light on its meaning.

 

Gerah (gay-raw`): from ˜garar` (as in ˜gerah`); the cud (as scraping the throat):--cud; properly, (like 'gargar') a kernel (round as if scraped), i.e. a gerah or small weight (and coin):--gerah.

 

Garar (gaw-rar`): a primitive root; to drag off roughly; by implication, to bring up the cud (i.e. ruminate); by analogy, to saw:--catch, chew, X continuing, destroy, saw.

 

Gargar (gar-gar`): by reduplication from ˜garar`; a berry (as if a pellet of rumination):--berry.

 

As mentioned earlier, coprophagy or refection or double-digestion (Wikipedia`s term) is a process whereby rabbits pass pellets of partially digested food (gerah) which they re-chew, i.e. ruminate (along with the waste material, dung, which interestingly and intentionally, is not used in the original language, Hebrew), in order to give their stomachs another go at extracting necessary nutrients. The same objective of extracting necessary nutrients is accomplished by cows, sheep, goats, etc., through the process mentioned above called rumination aka chewing and re-chewing partially digested food. Please note that the common element here is partially digested food (cud), and re-chewing it in order to obtain necessary nutrients.

 

The Hebrew term here for "bring up" or "come up" is ˜alah, and it is found in some grammatical form on virtually every page of the Old Testament. This is because it is a word that encompasses many concepts other than "bring up." It also can mean ascend up, carry up, cast up, fetch up, get up, recover, restore, take up, and much more. It is a "catch-all" verb form describing the moving of something to another place. The literal rendering here is, "ma`alah gerah" or "maketh the gerah to 'alah."

 

In the verses in question ˜alah" is used as a participle. Let`s look at the other verses where it is used this way:

 

· "It was THE LORD our GOD HIMSELF WHO brought us and our fathers up out of Egypt..." (Joshua 24:17)

· "Therefore THE LORD is about to bring (up) the burnt offering..." (Isaiah 8:7)

· "Charging cavalry, flashing swords (lifted up), and glittering spears!" (Nahum 3:3)

· "....therefore THE LORD is about to bring (up) against them the mighty floodwaters of the River..." (Isaiah 8:7)

· "When they had finished, they brought (up) the rest of the money..." (2 Chronicles 24:14)

· "HE makes clouds rise (up) from the ends of the earth..." (Psalm 135:7)

· "...while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of THE LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets." (2 Samuel 6:15; cf. 1 Chronicles 15:28)

 

In other words, the Hebrew word, ˜alah," is a phrase of general movement and is not specific to regurgitation. And as it relates to the issue at hand, the rabbit is an animal that does recover and maketh the previously partially digested material to "come up" out of the body (though in a different way than cows, sheep, and goats do --- with rabbits, it comes up all the way through) and does thereafter re-chew predigested material.

 

So while hares and rabbits do not have the same type of digestive apparatus as cows do, they do have a unique form of chewing the cud. And WHO would know this better in HIS instruction to Moses to record this knowledge than THE CREATOR WHO created all things, including the hare and rabbit?

 

Although some of the information in THE HOLY SCRIPTURES seems inexplicable at a given point in time, it is the creature that lacks complete/perfect knowledge as GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES teaches that only THE CREATOR, THE LORD......GOD has all knowledge/omniscience, and we know that HIS word, like HIM, is true/truth. All one need do is.......believe/have faith in/trust.......HIM/HIS word.

 

But alas, rather than giving the benefit of [his] doubt to THE LORD.......GOD thus HIS word, otkroveniya chooses to come up against THE LORD GOD/HIS word, and [unwittingly] expose his true identity --- rebel --- a son of disobedience.

 

And again, why?

 

To somehow try to rationalize in his own head the blatant anti-SCRIPTURAL writings and teachings he has chosen to accept, believe and defend, i.e., s&l.

 

REPEAT: The problem isn`t with GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES; the problem is with the agnostic, the unbeliever. In this case, otkroveniya, whose sole interest in THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, like his s&l brethren, is to make a case for his beloved heretical heroes` blasphemous and anti-SCRIPTURAL claims through his/their futile attempts to discredit GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. Unfortunately for them, in pursuit of appeasing their own heart/mind regarding the blatant blasphemies in their beloved hero`s writings, they must resort to their [spiritual] mentor`s tactics --- distort, twist, ignore and outright deny GOD`S word. And when this is exposed by and in [the] light of GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, they do the same thing their predecessor did when confronted by THE LORD regarding his disobedience/wrongdoing --- shifts blame onto someone else, e.g., the translators of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, and ultimately, onto THE LORD HIMSELF.

 

Unlike the agnostic and unbeliever, a true believer`s faith is not based upon things seen but upon hearing, and hearing the word of GOD (Romans 10:17). A believer needs no "proof" that THE LORD GOD`S word(s) is accurate. The believer believes and trusts in THE GOD of HIS word thus HIS word because HIS word, like HIM, is true/truth --- which is why he/she is called a believer, and why those who do not, are called unbelievers. Miracles, signs and wonders are for unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22a). (mgr got this one wrong as well - 3:7:9)

 

Amazing and amusing --- the atheist "nee-nashi" are the ones who emerge as the true believers while those, like otkroveniya and his brethren, who speak THE LORD`S name claiming to be true believers, are, in truth, the atheists/nee-nashi.

 

Interesting to observe also is otkroveniya`s seeming concern regarding accuracy in translations yet reluctance in looking to the original languages.

 

Perhaps otkroveniya fears what he will discover --- the truth that there is no "apocrypha" ("those [texts and teachings] having been hidden away") in the original Jewish Scriptures aka The TaNaKh aka The Old Testament, and that this term was coined by Jerome during his translation of the Septuagint from Greek into the Latin Vulgate for the express purpose of distinguishing "true SCRIPTURE" from other "religious writings."

 

Perhaps otkroveniya fears discovering the truth that these writings were written by men during what is called the intertestamental era, the 400-year period of time before the advent of JESUS, referred to by those who were entrusted with the oracles of GOD aka the Jewish Scriptures aka The TaNaKh aka The Old Testament, as the time when "GOD did not speak."

 

And why should HE? HE said everything there was to say about HIS coming [in the flesh] to "clean up" the mess HIS creatures made (and continue to make), and 400 years after HE said HE would, HE did...in person/personally. And guess what? HIS creatures, like their predecessors, refused to listen/hearken to HIS voice/HIM, insisting on their way, then and now.

 

It doesn`t take a scholar to see that these fourteen writings are not the words of ALMIGHTY GOD. It only takes a heart purely for THE LORD WHO gifts HIS own with discernment, a gift (like [Abraham`s] faith) which otkroveniya and his arrogant, blind, stubborn and rebellious s&l brethren, unfortunately for them, do not possess.

 

Perhaps otkroveniya fears discovering the truth that there is little if no difference between these writings and the Talmud (Mishna and gemara) in that both are [hu]man`s commentaries, and not the direct revelation/inspired words of ALMIGHTY GOD.

 

Perhaps otkroveniya fears discovering the truth that those who wrote these fourteen writings weren`t ignorant of or oblivious to the "true SCRIPTURES" aka the Jewish Scriptures aka the TaNaKh aka the Old Testament for they were Jews who were quite familiar with the "true SCRIPTURES" from whence they derived portions of their "religious writings." (otkroveniya`s perversion, like those of the individuals he has chosen to ally with --- agnostics, skeptics, and unbelievers like himself, is "flip-flopped." JESUS did not quote from the apocryphal writings; HE quoted from HIS own word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES from whence the Jews who wrote the fourteen writings derived their "religious quotes." Remember these writings were written by Jews who knew the "true SCRIPTURES" in the intertestamental period aka "the time when GOD did not speak.")

 

Perhaps otkroveniya fears discovering the truth that in 90 A.D. the Jewish Council, yes, that evil word "Council," which simply means: "An assembly of persons called together for consultation, deliberation, or discussion" (e.g., the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:1-29), that met in Jamnia excluded from the Old Testament all the writings except those contained therein today.

 

Perhaps otkroveniya fears discovering the truth that among CHRISTians there was no concensus regarding the inclusion of these writings until after Jerome`s death, and Augustine`s endorsement and insistence on including these writings at the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D.

 

Perhaps otkroveniya fears discovering the truth that although these writings were included in the original King James translation of 1611, they were excluded from 1644 onward because of Puritan protests.

 

Perhaps otkroveniya does not refer to his hero`s original manuscripts for the same reason --- fear of discovering the truth that his beloved hero wasn`t all he is portrayed to be by his so-called "elders" aka spin doctors or what otkroveniya desires or romanticizes him to be.

 

Perhaps otkroveniya fears discovering the truth that his beloved hero was, in truth, a dissolute/licentious lecher aka a(n) [old] goat/a satyr, as well as a false prophet, teacher, god, messiah/christ, and spirit.

 

The simple fact of the matter is, otkroveniya fears discovering/knowing.......THE TRUTH.......the real JESUS, because in doing so he is "without excuse" in either making the choice --- freely, willingly --- for HIM (forsaking all others), and in doing so to mortify sinful (law-less, disobedient, stiff-necked, stubborn, rebellious) self and one`s adultery/idolatry (other lovers --- gods/christs/messiahs/spirits, e.g., mgr et al, the molokan dictator), or not (and continue to suffer the consequences --- estrangement, separation from his CREATOR which is death and darkness) --- the choice each individual, from Adam to otkroveniya, was and is given the opportunity to make.

 

But, like [spiritual] father like [spiritual] sons, time and again mgr`s faithful ones continue to reveal their true identity --- rebels, unbelievers, who desperately need THE LORD but whose willful stubborn pride blinds them from seeing this truth thus prevents them from humbling themselves and coming unto HIM.......THE WORD OF GOD WHO IS GOD WHO IS THE [only] WAY of peace with GOD.......THE PEACEMAKER HIMSELF.......JESUS of Nazareth.

 

To make matters worse, they do not have the presence of [JESUS`] mind via THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, THE HOLY SPIRIT, to even know/see their desperate condition.

 

Why?

 

"...And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve THE LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served..." (Joshua 24:15a)

 

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve GOD and mammon." (Matthew 6:24)

 

ANSWER: Choice.

 

Because they choose to reject THE TRUE LIGHT, THE ONE [and only] LORD.......GOD/HIS word.

 

THE TRUE LIGHT calls this condition or state of being.......darkness; and a pitiable, woeful state it is, which is the reason THE TRUE LIGHT, WHO is summum bonum.......the chiefest/highest good.......came into the world.

 

THE LORD GOD hasn`t changed. In truth, HE is immutable. HE is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow --- GOOD, HOLY, JUST, RIGHTEOUS, LOVE, TRUE/TRUTH, THE TRUE LIGHT. It is HIS creatures that fall short and must change, and the key is --- choice --- one of two --- for THE LORD GOD/HIS WORD, or, not.

 

And as in the days of Noah, the days of Abraham, of Moses, of David and Solomon, of Isaiah, of Jeremiah, of Hosea, of Malachi, of Matthew, of Mark, of Luke, of John, of Peter, of Paul, and to date, THE LORD GOD waits patiently.......not willing that any should perish (HIS perfect will), but that all (even otkroveniya and his s&l brethren) should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9b); repentance from their [foolish, futile, rebellious] ways by turning to HIS WAY, THE [ONLY] WAY.......JESUS of Nazareth.......HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THE SON OF PROMISE in the prophetic revelation of Genesis 22:1-18.

 

 

 

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Seeing as you have originals of these, could you scan and post the sections you cited so people can read for themselves?

 

mgr's very own words confirm his as a serial polygamist yet many still are jumping to the beat of this different drummer?

[lastinline 0]

Guestotkroveniya22 Dec 9 2007, 09:05 PM Post #46

###Now Seeking, which is it? Is Jesus the Prince of Peace....or division? Peace...or strife? Peace...or the sword?

Or because Jesus is the Son of God He can do whatever He wishes...including hypocricy? Telling us about peace on the one side while declaring strife and division on the other?

Foolish, foolish questions, whose ONLY purpose is to bring doubt into people's perception, that God the Son's words are somehow need of CORRECTION.

 

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

NKJV

 

From RV 22

###If God is absolute good and His ultimate objective is for the good of His creatures,

 

To even consider or even entertain the thought of, "If God is absolute good" borders on the unforgivable sin, does it not?

 

Luke 12:10 "And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.

NKJV

 

Regarding, anonymous's last post; otkroveniya22, how does does it feel to be naked and unshaven (most of the time).

 

lastinline (4 a reason & 4 a season)

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Anonymous-Thanks for responding to my post # 27 dated Oct. 23, 2007 at 11:55 p.m. although it took you over three and a half months to do so. Will you be taking another 3.5 months to respond to this post as well? Or perhaps you were too busy shoring up your foundering group of Re-formed like minded membership? You can always gain more members by tapping into your local downtown panhandling community. For a drink and some grub they would be glad to accept your religious philosophy. Or you can cyber-church with your cheerleader, Lastinline, who cannot decide if he is hot or cold but remains lukewarm[Rev. 3:15]. Lastinline continues to leech off of the blessings and benefits that molokan church membership and attendance provides, yet the parasite refuses to leave while continuing to disparage the foundational theological tenets and doctrines founded upon the truth and Christ's teachings.

 

The words of THE LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." (Psalm 12:6)

###Being that that the words of the Lord are pure words, then you should have no problems with the following[Of course these words are God-breathed and inspired according to your often quoted proof text of 2 Timothy 3:16]:

 

2 Kings 18:27But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own ###### with you?

 

Isaiah 36:12But Rabshakeh said, Hath my master sent me to thy master and to thee to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men that sit upon the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own ###### with you?

 

1 Samuel 25:22So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

 

1 Samuel 25:34For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

 

1 Kings 14:10Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

 

1 Kings 16: 11And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends.

 

1 Kings 21:21Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,

 

2 Kings 9: 8For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

 

Ezekiel 23

1The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

 

2Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:

 

3And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats[nipples] of their virginity.

 

Ezekiel 23:19Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.

 

20For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh[penises] is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue[semen] is like the issue of horses.

 

21Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

 

Phillippians 3:8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

 

###Pure and Holy words for a pure and Holy God. As you can see, your heartburn about MGR using harsh language is quite weak, biblically speaking. On the one hand, we are instructed to speak with grace [Colossians 4:6], yet the God-breathed Holy bible shows us otherwise.

 

 

"The law (word) of THE LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony (word) of THE LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts (commands/words) of THE LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment (word) of THE LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes." (Psalm 19:7-8)

 

### Here you need to keep your eye on the context of the Psalms 19 passage. You overgeneralize the meaning by using "word" when in fact the psalm is referring to the mosaic laws specifically. In continuing your citation, read the following:

 

Psalms 19:7 The instructions of the Lord are perfect,

reviving the soul.

The decrees of the Lord are trustworthy,

making wise the simple.

8 The commandments of the Lord are right,

bringing joy to the heart.

The commands of the Lord are clear,

giving insight for living.

9 Reverence for the Lord is pure,

lasting forever.

The laws of the Lord are true;

each one is fair.

10 They are more desirable than gold,

even the finest gold.

They are sweeter than honey,

even honey dripping from the comb.

11 They are a warning to your servant,

a great reward for those who obey them.

 

###As you can see, as a side note "works" play a major role in salvific theology and there is more to eternal salvation than the ridiculous mindset of once saved always saved, or your narrowminded "grace alone" theology. On the outside, you, Anonymous quote the Old Testament as Holy Scripture but inside yourself refuse to follow the precepts of the whole Bible, preferring to join yourself along with others in this New Testament only cult, placing the New Testament on higher theological grounds than other scripture such as the OT and the Apocrypha. You not only alienated yourself from the Priguny, but the Postoyanne as well who hold to the doctrine of the Apocrypha as scripture also. You and your small rebellious apostatic group truly are at emnity with God. Many Molokans do not adhere nor accept all the precepts handed down through long Spiritual Christian history, but still acnowledge many fundamental tenets that make this the true path to eternal salvation. Your theology not only is antagonistic to the truth of scripture fulfilled, but comes from the American Baptist experience and influence. Your stance is as the Adversary to God as well as fullfiling the role of the Proteevnik. Some molokans of Persian descent are Proteevniky to the Biblical truths deposited in the Molokan belief system, which can be partly attributed to the undue influence exerted on them by their association with Adventists, Baptists among others while living in Iran.. One individual that comes to mind was "Santa's Helper" AKA V.I.S. of Persian church.

 

Paul the Apostle understood the salvific theology of the OT when he told Timothy the following:

 

2 Timothy 3:14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

 

15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

 

THE [iNCARNATE]WORD OF GOD WHO IS GOD.......JESUS of Nazareth tells us:

 

###More Trinitarian doctrinal tripe. Scripture and verse please that states "Jesus of Nazareth is God".

 

The words recorded in THE HOLY SCRIPTURES are the word(s) of THE ONE TRUE and LIVING.......GOD. The word(s) of GOD is the truth and the only source of truth that convicts of sin, warns of judgment, saves the sinner, purifies, cleanses, matures the believer and gives the hope of eternal glory because THE AUTHOR of HIS word is THE [ABSOLUTE]TRUTH (John 14:6).

 

###Your deceiving play on words here is noted. Last I checked It was Jesus who said he is the way truth and life.

 

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

###Anonymous, where is it stated in the verse that "The one true living God" is the way truth and life?

 

'

"As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly." (Proverbs 26:11)

###Lest you forget, Anonymous, Proverbs also states the following concerning those who arrogate themselves in their perceived knowledge of using proverbs to disparage others:

 

Proverbs 26:7 Like the legs of the lame that hang limp

Is a proverb in the mouth of fools.

 

Proverbs26:9 Like a thorn that goes into the hand of a drunkard

Is a proverb in the mouth of fools.

 

And so it is with otkroveniya and mgr`s faithful ones who just do not "get it" nor desire to. They just do not "get" that life is all about.......THE LORD.......GOD.......WHO IS [THE] LIFE (John 14:6).

 

###Once again your Trinitarian tripe is exposed and your error is noted. John 14:6 states that Jesus is the way truth and life. Where in this verse is this passage stating that "THE LORD GOD WHO IS LIFE"?

 

There is no "erroneous inaccuracy" in translation.

 

###Your selective ignorance is noted here and your feeble attempt to defend the inerrancy of scripture is made stark and exposed by the following short laundry list of verses for you to refute:

 

Isaiah 34:1414The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

 

Isaiah 13:21But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

 

Numbers 23:22God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.

Numbers 24: 8God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.

 

Job 39:9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

 

10Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?

 

Psalms 29:6He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.

Psalm 92:10But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.

 

Deutoronomy 33:17His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

 

Psalm 22:21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

 

Isaiah 34: 7And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

 

Acts 12:4And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

 

Romans 16:16 Greet each other in Christian love.

1 Corinthians 16:20 All the brothers and sisters here send greetings to you. Greet each other with Christian love.

2 Corinthians 13: 12 Greet each other with Christian love

1 Thessalonians 5: 26 Greet all the brothers and sisters with Christian love

1 Peter 5:14 Greet each other with Christian love

 

Genesis 22:1And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Phillippians 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

 

PRAYER

 

Lord my God, the fountain of kindheartedness and love. Bring your ear close to my words and be attentive to the voice of our prayer. Although we regularly backslide and regularly apostatize from You, but You, the most benevolent Father, forgive our sins and heal us of our apathy. Love us again according to your word. Again we shall look toward Your holy temple. Remember the miracles You performed and your previous love for us. Do not include us Lord, with those who apostatize from You, but to those who believed in the salvaton of their souls. Let your mercy be bestowed upon us, may Your goodness find us. Return us Lord, to the joy of your salvation. Establish us Lord, with the divine strength, so that we would not be caught by the snare of the wicked and not incline to those who do evil. Protect us Lord, from the poison of false teaching and the insidious spirit of malice of this world. To this point our hearts have been cold toward You. Awaken within us Lord, fiery feelings and zeal. Let our prayer be a source of comfort and the means to salvation. Do not deny us Lord, Your presence, but include us in the assembly of your elect people. Do not deny us and abandon us Lord our God. Light the fire of our souls, tighten the loins, shine light upon the path so we can walk along it. We always have in front of us the path that lies before us to combat the malicious enemy with the strength of faith, with reliance upon our Savior. In the end we will defeat him in the name of Jesus Christ. To Him be the honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.[Pg. 211 Guide to the Spirit and Life with supplements]

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Anonymous- Regarding your post #48

 

Unlike mgr and his followers in kind, who when "put to the test," "tempted," "tried" or "assayed" by THE LORD GOD/HIS word, prove to be fakes/imitations, and at best, agnostics. In short, their faith is not the faith of Abraham.

 

And that is their.......choice.

###On the contrary, once again due to your selective ignorance, you chose to blindly lead other blnded apostates into the ditch with your rebellious propaganda[Matthew 15:14]. MGR and others did walk the talk, and landed imprisonment and death for their efforts. Your assertion otherwise is more nonsense. Actually, you would be the agnostic, believing miracles and prophesy stopped at Rev 22. You are agnostic for placing limits on those who believe firmly in God who reveals Himself in Creation, Biblical history, and God's ability to do extraordinary things anywhere in the world- anytime including in our own experiences.

Agnosticism is more fitting to your cerebral religious theology; which include the absence of miracles and prophesy. Your philosophical religion and rejection of miracles is no different of the skepticism by the Pharisees towards Jesus' miracles. In otherwords, a modern day Pharisee.

 

"I am the faith of the God of Abraham and his wives Sarah and Hagar[Pg. 442 S&L]

 

The above perspective is not that of the spiritual mind but of the carnal mind; the carnal mind Apostle Paul wrote about in Romans 8:7-8.

 

"...the carnal mind is enmity (deep-rooted hatred) against GOD; for it is not subject to the law of GOD, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh (carnal mind) cannot please GOD."

 

The cardiac dis-ease mgr and his faithful brethren suffer(ed) from (and weren`t/aren`t even aware of) is --- enmity (deep-rooted hatred, hostility) against GOD thus HIS word which is [HIS] law.

 

###Once again, you continue your hatred toward the followers of our Founders and the Christ-centered theology of our forefathers. You also rebel against the concept of the thousand year reign as has been opened to MGR. This skepticism of yours towards the 1000 reign places you firmly in the same category as the Catholics who do not accept the thousand year reign as a future event. Just another additional sign of your cerebral philosophy and agnosticism.

 

There is no emnity by MGR towards God, neither in his contemporaries, nor in those who follow. The following examples demonstrate the love towards God by the Molokan leaders and writers that you and your ilk are loath to observe. Your ire is clearly manifested with your refusal to acknowledge the power of God's healing, other miracles, and prophesy. You have emnity towards God and thus the carnal mind.

 

"Princes of the assembly of God and the Sons of the All-high. The Church of our Lord Jesus Christ! Brothers and sisters and all those zealous for the word of God, grace be unto you and peace, may your understanding of the secret of eternal bliss increase."[Pg. 133 S&L DY]

 

"May the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly in all things; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blemish, unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."[Pg. 73 S&L 6-3 LPS]

 

"14For every one that fulfills His will shall be saved, and His mercy will itself embrace him.15 Such a person is himself likened to the love of God, and the life within the soul of the body is eternally immortal.16 Concerning this there was plainly exemplified for us Elijah and Enoch of ancient times, and Jesus Christ Himself, the Son of God!"[Pg. 564 S&L MGR]

 

"9 I sing a song unto the Lord: Rise from heaven God of Abraham, and awaken my strength and my glory from God. 10 I shall defeat my enemy and the foe with the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and I sing early to my God."[Pg. 673 S&L Article 47 EGK]

 

Because like their beloved hero(es) of their "New Israel jumper/leaper faith" before them, GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES exposes and judges the thoughts and intentions of their hearts (Hebrews 4:12), and condemns them.

###The word of God is a double edge sword which cuts the holder/wielder as well. Here in your usage towards others, you blunder by taking this verse out of context, which when taken in proper context is a general statement that applies to EVERYBODY- not just to the enemies of Anonymous . More of your nonsense which is noted.

 

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

 

In reading GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES we learn about GOD`S identity, WHO GOD is --- HIS attributes, characteristics, HIS very "nature."

 

Examples:

 

· HE is fair, just and righteous (Jeremiah 9:24; 23:5-6; Isaiah 45:21; Psalm 97:2, 119:142-144, 129:4; Acts 3:14; Hebrews 1:8-9; Ephesians 4:24).

· HE is faithful and true (Numbers 23:19; Deuteronomy 7:9; Isaiah 11:5; Psalm 36:5, 89:8; Lamentations 3:22-23; 2 Timothy 2:13; Revelation 19:11)

· HE is good (Psalm 33:5, 52:1, 100:5, 136:1a; Romans 2:4)

· HE is holy (1 Samuel 2:2; Isaiah 6:3; Psalm 145:17; John 17:11; 1 Peter 1:16-25; Revelation 15:4).

· HE is love (1 John 4:8,16)

· HE is loving and kind (1 Kings 3:6; Psalm 59:16, 86:5, 103:17, 136:1b; 1 John 4:8).

· HE is gracious and merciful (2 Samuel 24:14; Matthew 9:27-29; Luke 1:78; 2 Corinthians 1:3; Philippians 2:27; Hebrews 4:16; James 5:11; 1 Peter 1:3).

· HE is truth (Deuteronomy 32:4; John 14:6).

· HE is sovereign (Isaiah 46:10; Dan-iel 4:35; Ephesians 1:11).

 

###Lets make sure we also mention the rest of who God is:

He makes people lie in direct contradiction to His ninth comandment in Exodus 20:16 to not lie:

 

2 Chronicles 18: 22Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

 

1 Kings 22:19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

 

20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

 

21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

 

22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

 

23Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

 

###Another attribute of God is that He is a murderer of innocent children- keeping in mind murder is premeditated killing and is forbidden in the sixth commandment [Exodus 20:13]

 

Numbers 24: 17I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

 

Joshua 6: 21And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

 

Joshua 10: 38And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it:

 

39And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.

 

40So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

 

###Here we see another of God's characteristics as the master of GENOCIDE.

 

Deuteronomy 20:16 "But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, 17 but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the LORD your God has commanded you,

 

Joshua 11:10 Joshua turned back at that time and took Hazor, and struck its king with the sword; for Hazor was formerly the head of all those kingdoms. 11 And they struck all the people who were in it with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them. There was none left breathing. Then he burned Hazor with fire.

12 So all the cities of those kings, and all their kings, Joshua took and struck with the edge of the sword. He utterly destroyed them, as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded.

 

###God also is vengeful and warmongering:

 

Deuteronomy 32:

 

41 If I whet My glittering sword,

And My hand takes hold on judgment,

I will render vengeance to My enemies,

And repay those who hate Me.

 

42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood,

And My sword shall devour flesh,

With the blood of the slain and the captives,

From the heads of the leaders of the enemy."`

 

43 " Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people;[a]

For He will avenge the blood of His servants,

And render vengeance to His adversaries;

He will provide atonement for His land and His people."

 

###God also is the author of child slavery as well as rape of women as sex slaves:

 

Deutoronomy 20:12 Now if the city will not make peace with you, but war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 And when the LORD your God delivers it into your hands, you shall strike every male in it with the edge of the sword. 14 But the women, the little ones, the livestock, and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall plunder for yourself; and you shall eat the enemies` plunder which the LORD your God gives you. 15 Thus you shall do to all the cities which are very far from you, which are not of the cities of these nations.

 

###God is also jealous [Exodus 20: 5] And yet He teaches us through His inspired writers that jealousy is evil[More contradiction of Holy Scripture]:

 

Galatians 5: 19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

###Another attribute of God is His contradictory nature in His word. For example, He has a knack for changing His mind:

 

Malachi 3:6 "I am the Lord, and I do not change. That is why you descendants of Jacob are not already destroyed. 7 Ever since the days of your ancestors, you have scorned my decrees and failed to obey them. Now return to me, and I will return to you," says the Lord of Heaven`s Armies.

 

Jonah 3: 3 This time Jonah obeyed the Lord`s command and went to Nineveh, a city so large that it took three days to see it all. 4 On the day Jonah entered the city, he shouted to the crowds: "Forty days from now Nineveh will be destroyed!"

 

Jonah 3:10 When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.

 

###Another example of God's contradictory attribute: You will find that God forbids making graven images in His second commandment[Exodus 20:4] Yet commands Moses to create a graven image in direct contrast to His 2nd commandment:

 

Numbers 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live." 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

 

###And finally, God is a purveyor of pornography[Especially for children to see]

 

2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says the LORD: ˜Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie[have sex] with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel[including children], before the sun.`"

 

2 Samuel 16:21 And Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Go in to your father`s concubines[fornicate], whom he has left to keep the house; and all Israel will hear that you are abhorred by your father. Then the hands of all who are with you will be strong." 22 So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the top of the house, and Absalom went in to his father`s concubines[had sex] in the sight of all Israel[including children].

 

###Just some of the other attributes of God that you glossed over, Anonymous.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Sirach 3

1 The sons of wisdom are the church of the just: and their generation, obedience and love.

 

2 Children, hear the judgment of your father, and so do that you may be saved.

 

3 For God hath made the father honourable to the children: and seeking the judgment of the mothers, hath confirmed it upon the children.

 

4 He that loveth God, shall obtain pardon for his sine by prayer, and shall refrain himself from them, and shall be heard in the prayer of days.

 

5 And he that honoureth his mother is as one that layeth up a treasure.

 

6 He that honoureth his father shall have joy in his own children, and in the day of his prayer he shall be heard.

 

7 He that honoureth his father shall enjoy a long life: and he that obeyeth the father, shall be a comfort to his mother.

______________________________________________________

 

James 5:15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.

 

16Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

 

17Elias was a man passible like unto us: and with prayer he prayed that it might not rain upon the earth, and it rained not for three years and six months.

 

18And he prayed again: and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

 

19My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him:

 

20He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Anonymous- Once again regarding your post #48

 

The truth of the matter is, otkroveniya and his s&l brethren are hostile to the true SCRIPTURES and the truths contained therein.

 

Why?

 

Because like their beloved hero(es) of their "New Israel jumper/leaper faith" before them, GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES exposes and judges the thoughts and intentions of their hearts (Hebrews 4:12), and condemns them. This is one of the reasons their beloved principal hero, mgr, hated the church councils and their creeds whose purpose was to maintain [the integrity of]the [written] word of GOD spoken by THE [iNCARNATE] WORD OF GOD (on which CHRISTianity is founded) transmitted to the Apostles during the formative years of the early church, and in doing so, ferreted out heresies like the very ones their beloved principal hero, maxim gavrilovitch rudometkin, practiced and preached, e.g., Arianism, Montanism.

 

###When the true scriptures began to appear, there were many various interpretations that sprang up also. However, the truth of scriptures began being replaced by heresy and defended at sword point as being orthodox. Which brings us to the ecumenical councils and their resultant doctrines. Anonymous, your support of the ecumenical councils is evident, especially your staunch support of the the unbiblical and man made Trinity doctrine. The comments of yours in support of the ecumenical councils and especially the Trinity docrtrine is noted. However this stance removes you from identity as a Spiritual Christian aka Molokan because MGR was not by any stretch of imagination the only antagonist towards the councils and their resultant creeds and doctrines. This stance places you in the categories of Molokan apostacy, non-Molokan, or Reformed Molokan. Which is your choice. But you are not orthodox Molokan, especially when adding your other anti Molokan views and doctrines that you share with others like minded.

 

###Instead of using your inacurrate classification of placing Molokans in the categories of Arianism and Montanism, the proper classification of Spiritual Christianity is semi-Arianism, semi-Montanism, semi-Quartodecimen and semi-Trinitarianism. The Molokans adhere to concepts in all four classifications but not fully. Naturally the Spiritual Christians in history were not bothered by the names of Arians and such but were more concerned about following and fullfilling accurately the scriptures. This irks you because clearly the Molokans were not Trinitarians as much as you would like them to be. They followed the Bible and rejected the teachings of the ecumenical councils which you, Anonymous, support as being "necessary" and important for maintaining scriptural integrity, when in fact they are the basis of heresy.

 

###The following are some examples of the core tenets of Arianism, Montanism, Quartodeciman and Trintarianism:

 

[Wikipedia]

Arius taught that God the Father and the Son did not exist together eternally. Further, Arius taught that the pre-incarnate Jesus was a divine being created by (and possibly inferior to) the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. In English-language works, it is sometimes said that Arians believe that Jesus is or was a "creature;" in this context, the word is being used in its original sense of "created being."

 

Because most contemporary written material on Arianism was written by its opponents, the nature of Arian teachings is difficult to define precisely today. The letter of Auxentius[1], a 4th century Arian bishop of Milan, regarding the missionary Ulfilas, gives the clearest picture of Arian beliefs on the nature of the Trinity: God the Father ("unbegotten"), always existing, was separate from the lesser Jesus Christ ("only-begotten"), born before time began and creator of the world. The Father, working through the Son, created the Holy Spirit, who was subservient to the Son as the Son was to the Father. The Father was seen as "the only true God." 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 was cited as proof text:

 

"Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth ” as in fact there are many gods and many lords ” yet for us there is one God (Gk. theos - θεος), the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord (kyrios - κυÏιος), Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (NRSV)

A letter from Arius to the Arian Eusebius of Nicomedia succinctly states the core beliefs of the Arians:

 

"Some of them say that the Son is an eructation, others that he is a production, others that he is also unbegotten. These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though the heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten; and that he does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by his own will and counsel he has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before he was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, he was not. For he was not unbegotten. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning." (Peters, Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, p. 41)

 

###Here Arianism states that Jesus/Son had a beginning, and that God the Father is greater and higher in ontological authority than Jesus the Son. This the Molokans believe:

 

"About the feature of the Holy Trinity, The Son of God and the holy Spirit, although consubstantial with the Father, they are not equal with Him in Divine dignity.[simeon Uklein pg. 48 Dissenters and Prisoners- D.H.S.]

 

"The Lord said to Me, You are my Son, today I have begotten you"[Psalm 2:7, pg. 97 Molokans of Kherson Dssenters and Prisoners DHS]

 

"and in no manner is it said that we should worship before some image or to make an image of those who abide in heaven or on earth or in the nether-regions............ or to anyone other than God the Father and creator of all, and His only-born Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit." [Pg. 365 Petition to the Tzar 1805 Dissenters and Prisoners]

 

Arius taught that Jesus Christ was divine and was sent to earth for the salvation of mankind but that Jesus Christ was not equal to the Father (infinite, primordial origin) and to the Holy Spirit (giver of life). Under Arianism, Christ was instead not consubstantial with God the Father.

 

###What the Molokans do not believe, is that Jesus was not consubstantial with the Father[God] as Arius believed. The Molokans believe that Jesus does indeed share God's Hypostasis[nature], His substance and essence, which makes Jesus God only in "matter"...but that would be all. Nothing more.

 

###Here we look at Montanism which Anonymous unwittingly accuses us and MGR of committing:

 

Differences between Montanism and orthodox Christianity

The beliefs of Montanism contrasted with orthodox Christianity in the following ways:

 

The belief that the prophecies of the Montanists superseded and fulfilled the doctrines proclaimed by the Apostles.

The encouragement of ecstatic prophesying, contrasting with the more sober and disciplined approach to theology dominant in orthodox Christianity at the time and since.

The view that Christians who fell from grace could not be redeemed, also in contrast to the orthodox Christian view that contrition could lead to a sinner's restoration to the church.

The prophets of Montanism did not speak as messengers of God: "Thus saith the Lord," but rather described themselves as possessed by God, and spoke in his person. "I am the Father, the Word, and the Paraclete," said Montanus (Didymus, De Trinitate, III, xli); This possession by a spirit, which spoke while the prophet was incapable of resisting, is described by the spirit of Montanus: "Behold the man is like a lyre, and I dart like the plectrum. The man sleeps, and I am awake" (Epiphanius, "Panarion", xlviii, 4).

A stronger emphasis on the avoidance of sin and church discipline than in orthodox Christianity. They emphasized chastity, including forbidding remarriage.

Some of the Montanists were also "Quartodeciman" ("fourteeners"), preferring to celebrate Easter on the Hebrew calendar date of 14 Nisan, regardless of what day of the week it landed on. The orthodoxy held that Easter should be commemorated on the Sunday following 14 Nisan. (Trevett 1996:202)

 

###WE as Molokans believe a person can return to grace and be redeemed by true repentance.

We as molokans do not celebrate Easter but do celebrate Passover and the the death sequence of Christ in the same pattern as the "Quartodecimans"

We as Molokans do allow remarriage for widowers and widows.

 

###So no, Anonymous, we are not MONTANISTS but do adhere to elements of Montanism

 

Trinitarianism: The best way to define Trinitarianism is to first look at the first ecumenical council at Nicea and the resultant Trinity doctrine, better known as the Nicene creed and it's core tenets:

 

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; by whom all things were made;

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;

he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;

from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Ghost. the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[but those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable' ” they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

 

Homoousians believed that to follow the Arian view destroyed the unity of the Godhead, and made the Son unequal to the Father, in contravention of the Scriptures ("The Father and I are one", John 10:30). Arians, on the other hand, believed that since God the Father created the Son, he must have emanated from the Father, and thus be lesser than the Father, in that the Father is eternal, but the Son was created afterward and, thus, is not eternal.

 

###Naturally the Molokans reject the water baptism and the one and only holy catholic church elements of the Nicene creed of the first ecumenical council. Also the Molokans reject the institution of Easter from this first ecumenical council as well.

 

Separation of Easter from the Jewish Passover

After the June 19 settlement of the most important topic, the question of the date of the Christian Passover (Easter) was brought up. This feast is linked to the Jewish Passover, as the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus occurred during that festival. By the year 300, most Churches had adopted the Western style of celebrating the feast on the Sunday after the Passover, placing the emphasis on the resurrection, which occurred on a Sunday. Others however celebrated the feast on the 14th of the Jewish month Nisan, the date of the crucifixion according to the Bible's Hebrew calendar (Leviticus 23:5,John 19:14). Hence this group was called Quartodecimans, which is derived from the Latin for 14. The Eastern Churches of Syria, Cilicia, and Mesopotamia determined the date of Christian Passover in relation to the 14th day of Nisan, in the Bible's Hebrew calendar. Alexandria and Rome, however, followed a different calculation, attributed to Pope Soter, so that Christian Passover would never coincide with the Jewish observance and decided in favour of celebrating on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox, independently of the Bible's Hebrew calendar.

 

###So thus was officially established Easter during this first ecumenical council. This is what Anonymous supports from this 1st ecumenical council that Molokans reject:

 

1. Jesus is equal to God

2. Celebration of Easter

3. Water Baptism

4.God did not preexist Jesus- The Father and Son are co-eternal

5. One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church.

 

###The following is some doctrines of the 2nd ecumenical council Consantinople AD 381

 

The council affirmed the original Nicene creed of faith as true and an accurate explanation of Scripture. This council also developed a statement of faith which included the language of Nicaea, but expanded the discussion on the Holy Spirit to combat heresies. It is called the Nicene Creed of 381 and was a commentary on the original Nicene formula. It expanded the third article of the creed dealing with the Holy Spirit, as well as some other changes. About the Holy Spirit the article of faith said he is "the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified". The statement of proceeding from the Father is seen as significant because it established that the Holy Spirit must be of the same essence (ousia) as God the Father.

 

This Council's decision regarding the Holy Spirit also gave official endorsement to the concept of the Trinity. By the end of the 4th century, the Byzantine Emperor Theodosius "issued a decree that the doctrine of the Trinity was to be the official state religion and that all subjects shall adhere to it"

 

###So now the Trinity doctrine is mandatory for all as the result of this 2nd ecumenical council.. This is what Anonymous wants for all Molokans. Will he enforce this at swordpoint as did the Emperors Constantine and Theodosius?

 

3rd Ecumenical Council Ephesus AD 431

 

At the urging of its president, Cyril of Alexandria, the Council denounced Nestorius' teaching as erroneous and decreed that Jesus was one person, not two separate people: complete God and complete man, with a rational soul and body. The Virgin Mary was to be called Theotokos because she bore and gave birth to God as a man. This did not resolve the debate over the union of the two natures of Christ, and related issues were debated at the Council of Chalcedon.

 

###Now at this 3rd Ecumenical council because of the Trinity doctrine the door swung open for the Mary worship to begin, resulting in the decree that Mary is now officially the MOTHER OF GOD. This is what Anonymous supports that Molokans reject.

 

4th Ecumenical Council

 

The work of the council was completed by a series of 30 [2] disciplinary canons.

 

states all canons of previous councils shall remain in force, specific councils were clarified by Quinisext Council canon 2,

states that those who buy their office are anathema,

prohibits bishops from engaging in business,

bishops were given authority over the monks in their dioceses, with the right to permit or forbid the foundation of new monasteries,

travelling bishops are subject to canon law,

the clergy were forbidden to change dioceses or

to serve in the military

the poorhouses are under the jurisdiction of the bishop,

limits the ability to accuse a bishop of wrong doing,

prevents clergy belonging to multiple churches,

regards letters of travel for the poor,

no province shall be divided for the purposes of creating another church,

no clergy shall be received by others without a letter of recommendation,

regards wives and children of cantors and lectors,

a deaconess must be at least 40,

monks and nuns are forbidden to marry on pain of excommunication,

rural parishes cannot change bishops,

conspiring forbidden,

twice a year the bishops shall conduct a synod,

lists exemptions for those who have been driven to another city,

says an accuser of a bishop shall be suspect before the bishop,

makes it illegal to seize the goods of a dead bishop,

allows the expulsion of outsiders who cause trouble in Constantinople,

monasteries are permanent,

a new bishop shall be ordained within 3 months of election,

churches shall have a steward from among the congregation to monitor church business,

forbidden to carry off women under pretense of marriage (eloping),

grants equal privileges (isa presbeia) to Constantinople as of Rome because Constantinople is the New Rome as renewed by canon 36 of the Quinisext Council (the papal legates were not present for the vote on this canon, and protested it afterwards),

states a bishop cannot be demoted, only removed,

grants the Coptic Orthodox time to consider their rejection of Leo's Tome.

 

###This council forbids clergy to marry- this is direct opposition to New Testament teaching that celibacy is optional.

 

7th Ecumenical council Nicea AD 787

 

The Second Council of Nicaea was the seventh ecumenical council of Christianity; it met in 787 AD in Nicaea (site of the First Council of Nicaea) to restore the honoring of icons (or, holy images),

 

###This ecumenical council officially paved the way for icon worship- the Molokans reject this one [ Remember- EEKON NEE BOGH] I hope Anonymous is intelligent enough to reject this one outright.

 

###Also in about 500 AD the Athanasian creed was developed and this contains the Trinity doctrine in it's fullness which the Molokans reject:

 

Beginning in the 9th century, the Athanasian Creed was ascribed to St. Athanasius, Archbishop of Alexandria, who lived in the 4th century. This view was contested in the 17th century and is rejected today.[1] Reasons for rejecting Athanasius as the author are: 1) The creed originally was written in Latin. 2) It is not mentioned by Athanasius or his contemporaries. 3) It appears to address Christological controversies that developed after Athanasius died.[2]

 

Most of today's historians agree that it originated in Gaul around 500. Its theology is closely akin to that found in the writing of Western theologians

 

Athanasian Creed

 

Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.

 

Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.

 

Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.

 

For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

 

But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.

 

What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.

 

Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.

 

The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.

 

Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit:

 

And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal;

 

as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.

 

Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit:

 

And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.

 

Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God:

 

And yet there are not three gods, but one God.

 

Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord:

 

And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.

 

As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

 

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten;

 

the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father;

 

the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

 

Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.

 

And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other;

 

but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

 

Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.

 

It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.

 

For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.

 

He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother --

 

existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body;

 

equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.

 

Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.

 

He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.

 

He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.

 

For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.

 

He suffered death for our salvation.

 

He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.

 

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

 

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

 

At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of their own deeds.

 

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,

 

those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

 

This is the catholic faith.

 

One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.

 

###Molokans are not saved according to the Athanasian creed except Anonymous who just loves the trinity doctrine contained within this creed. Molokans reject this creed as well as the Trinity doctrine within the creed. We already know MGR condemns the ecumenical councils, but what the non-Molokan Anonymous ignores is what Simeon Uklein said about the councils and the resultant doctrines and policies:

 

"About the Ecumenical Councils and the Church Fathers. The true church of Christ existed only to the 4th century when the ecumenical councils and teachers of the church, by the interpretation of the Bible at their own discretion, distorted Christianity and mingled it with paganism"[simeon Matveev Uklein Pg. 49 Dissenters and Prisoners DHS]

 

 

Regards, RV22.

 

John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

Revelations 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants”things which must shortly take place.

 

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

I don't get you...

 

You discount the veracity of Scripture yet you point to it as proof for your faith

 

You say that molokans aren't Montanists but adhere to certain aspects of Montanism

 

This is disconcerting due to the fact that Montanus claimed to be the physical incarnation of the paraclete or Holy Spirit which is complete heresy

 

Why would anyone take their cues from such a heretic?

 

Furthermore Montanus, because of his heretical claims to be a physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit, was capable of continuous revelation

 

This is same claim that mgr and the mormon church make

 

To speak "Scripture" and/or "revise" it regardless if it was in dis-harmony with the Bible

 

This is exactly how cults, such as molokanism can justify their existence (sans group 1 molokans of course)

 

When a false religious practice is not in agreement with Scripture have someone "reveal" a "new" message from "god" to justify the practice

 

But you are not orthodox Molokan, especially when adding your other anti Molokan views and doctrines that you share with others like minded.

As to what orthodox molokansim is, NO ONE has been able or willing to define it in basic terms

 

Perhaps you could as it pertains to Scripture

 

Who is Jesus?

What is His role?

Is He equal to the Father?

According to your post, I believe you agree with Uklein indicating that Jesus is less than God

Is Jesus a created being or eternal?

How is Salvation obtained for mankind?

 

As a parting shot, do you really believe this or are you simply lifting (plagiarizing without giving credit) the majority of your posts from wikipedia because in your many words there's enough garbage to try and baffle people

 

Greetings Anonymous- Once again regarding your post #48

 

The truth of the matter is, otkroveniya and his s&l brethren are hostile to the true SCRIPTURES and the truths contained therein.

 

Why?

 

Because like their beloved hero(es) of their "New Israel jumper/leaper faith" before them, GOD`S word aka THE HOLY SCRIPTURES exposes and judges the thoughts and intentions of their hearts (Hebrews 4:12), and condemns them. This is one of the reasons their beloved principal hero, mgr, hated the church councils and their creeds whose purpose was to maintain [the integrity of]the [written] word of GOD spoken by THE [iNCARNATE] WORD OF GOD (on which CHRISTianity is founded) transmitted to the Apostles during the formative years of the early church, and in doing so, ferreted out heresies like the very ones their beloved principal hero, maxim gavrilovitch rudometkin, practiced and preached, e.g., Arianism, Montanism.

 

###When the true scriptures began to appear, there were many various interpretations that sprang up also. However, the truth of scriptures began being replaced by heresy and defended at sword point as being orthodox. Which brings us to the ecumenical councils and their resultant doctrines. Anonymous, your support of the ecumenical councils is evident, especially your staunch support of the the unbiblical and man made Trinity doctrine. The comments of yours in support of the ecumenical councils and especially the Trinity docrtrine is noted. However this stance removes you from identity as a Spiritual Christian aka Molokan because MGR was not by any stretch of imagination the only antagonist towards the councils and their resultant creeds and doctrines. This stance places you in the categories of Molokan apostacy, non-Molokan, or Reformed Molokan. Which is your choice. But you are not orthodox Molokan, especially when adding your other anti Molokan views and doctrines that you share with others like minded.

 

###Instead of using your inacurrate classification of placing Molokans in the categories of Arianism and Montanism, the proper classification of Spiritual Christianity is semi-Arianism, semi-Montanism, semi-Quartodecimen and semi-Trinitarianism. The Molokans adhere to concepts in all four classifications but not fully. Naturally the Spiritual Christians in history were not bothered by the names of Arians and such but were more concerned about following and fullfilling accurately the scriptures. This irks you because clearly the Molokans were not Trinitarians as much as you would like them to be. They followed the Bible and rejected the teachings of the ecumenical councils which you, Anonymous, support as being "necessary" and important for maintaining scriptural integrity, when in fact they are the basis of heresy.

 

###The following are some examples of the core tenets of Arianism, Montanism, Quartodeciman and Trintarianism:

 

[Wikipedia]

Arius taught that God the Father and the Son did not exist together eternally. Further, Arius taught that the pre-incarnate Jesus was a divine being created by (and possibly inferior to) the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. In English-language works, it is sometimes said that Arians believe that Jesus is or was a "creature;" in this context, the word is being used in its original sense of "created being."

 

Because most contemporary written material on Arianism was written by its opponents, the nature of Arian teachings is difficult to define precisely today. The letter of Auxentius[1], a 4th century Arian bishop of Milan, regarding the missionary Ulfilas, gives the clearest picture of Arian beliefs on the nature of the Trinity: God the Father ("unbegotten"), always existing, was separate from the lesser Jesus Christ ("only-begotten"), born before time began and creator of the world. The Father, working through the Son, created the Holy Spirit, who was subservient to the Son as the Son was to the Father. The Father was seen as "the only true God." 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 was cited as proof text:

 

"Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth �" as in fact there are many gods and many lords �" yet for us there is one God (Gk. theos - θεος), the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord (kyrios - κυριος), Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (NRSV)

A letter from Arius to the Arian Eusebius of Nicomedia succinctly states the core beliefs of the Arians:

 

"Some of them say that the Son is an eructation, others that he is a production, others that he is also unbegotten. These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though the heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten; and that he does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by his own will and counsel he has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before he was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, he was not. For he was not unbegotten. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning." (Peters, Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, p. 41)

 

###Here Arianism states that Jesus/Son had a beginning, and that God the Father is greater and higher in ontological authority than Jesus the Son. This the Molokans believe:

 

"About the feature of the Holy Trinity, The Son of God and the holy Spirit, although consubstantial with the Father, they are not equal with Him in Divine dignity.[simeon Uklein pg. 48 Dissenters and Prisoners- D.H.S.]

 

"The Lord said to Me, You are my Son, today I have begotten you"[Psalm 2:7, pg. 97 Molokans of Kherson Dssenters and Prisoners DHS]

 

"and in no manner is it said that we should worship before some image or to make an image of those who abide in heaven or on earth or in the nether-regions............ or to anyone other than God the Father and creator of all, and His only-born Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit." [Pg. 365 Petition to the Tzar 1805 Dissenters and Prisoners]

 

Arius taught that Jesus Christ was divine and was sent to earth for the salvation of mankind but that Jesus Christ was not equal to the Father (infinite, primordial origin) and to the Holy Spirit (giver of life). Under Arianism, Christ was instead not consubstantial with God the Father.

 

###What the Molokans do not believe, is that Jesus was not consubstantial with the Father[God] as Arius believed. The Molokans believe that Jesus does indeed share God's Hypostasis[nature], His substance and essence, which makes Jesus God only in "matter"...but that would be all. Nothing more.

 

###Here we look at Montanism which Anonymous unwittingly accuses us and MGR of committing:

 

Differences between Montanism and orthodox Christianity

The beliefs of Montanism contrasted with orthodox Christianity in the following ways:

 

The belief that the prophecies of the Montanists superseded and fulfilled the doctrines proclaimed by the Apostles.

The encouragement of ecstatic prophesying, contrasting with the more sober and disciplined approach to theology dominant in orthodox Christianity at the time and since.

The view that Christians who fell from grace could not be redeemed, also in contrast to the orthodox Christian view that contrition could lead to a sinner's restoration to the church.

The prophets of Montanism did not speak as messengers of God: "Thus saith the Lord," but rather described themselves as possessed by God, and spoke in his person. "I am the Father, the Word, and the Paraclete," said Montanus (Didymus, De Trinitate, III, xli); This possession by a spirit, which spoke while the prophet was incapable of resisting, is described by the spirit of Montanus: "Behold the man is like a lyre, and I dart like the plectrum. The man sleeps, and I am awake" (Epiphanius, "Panarion", xlviii, 4).

A stronger emphasis on the avoidance of sin and church discipline than in orthodox Christianity. They emphasized chastity, including forbidding remarriage.

Some of the Montanists were also "Quartodeciman" ("fourteeners"), preferring to celebrate Easter on the Hebrew calendar date of 14 Nisan, regardless of what day of the week it landed on. The orthodoxy held that Easter should be commemorated on the Sunday following 14 Nisan. (Trevett 1996:202)

 

###WE as Molokans believe a person can return to grace and be redeemed by true repentance.

We as molokans do not celebrate Easter but do celebrate Passover and the the death sequence of Christ in the same pattern as the "Quartodecimans"

We as Molokans do allow remarriage for widowers and widows.

 

###So no, Anonymous, we are not MONTANISTS but do adhere to elements of Montanism

 

Trinitarianism: The best way to define Trinitarianism is to first look at the first ecumenical council at Nicea and the resultant Trinity doctrine, better known as the Nicene creed and it's core tenets:

 

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; by whom all things were made;

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;

he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;

from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Ghost. the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[but those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable' �" they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

 

Homoousians believed that to follow the Arian view destroyed the unity of the Godhead, and made the Son unequal to the Father, in contravention of the Scriptures ("The Father and I are one", John 10:30). Arians, on the other hand, believed that since God the Father created the Son, he must have emanated from the Father, and thus be lesser than the Father, in that the Father is eternal, but the Son was created afterward and, thus, is not eternal.

 

###Naturally the Molokans reject the water baptism and the one and only holy catholic church elements of the Nicene creed of the first ecumenical council. Also the Molokans reject the institution of Easter from this first ecumenical council as well.

 

Separation of Easter from the Jewish Passover

After the June 19 settlement of the most important topic, the question of the date of the Christian Passover (Easter) was brought up. This feast is linked to the Jewish Passover, as the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus occurred during that festival. By the year 300, most Churches had adopted the Western style of celebrating the feast on the Sunday after the Passover, placing the emphasis on the resurrection, which occurred on a Sunday. Others however celebrated the feast on the 14th of the Jewish month Nisan, the date of the crucifixion according to the Bible's Hebrew calendar (Leviticus 23:5,John 19:14). Hence this group was called Quartodecimans, which is derived from the Latin for 14. The Eastern Churches of Syria, Cilicia, and Mesopotamia determined the date of Christian Passover in relation to the 14th day of Nisan, in the Bible's Hebrew calendar. Alexandria and Rome, however, followed a different calculation, attributed to Pope Soter, so that Christian Passover would never coincide with the Jewish observance and decided in favour of celebrating on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox, independently of the Bible's Hebrew calendar.

 

###So thus was officially established Easter during this first ecumenical council. This is what Anonymous supports from this 1st ecumenical council that Molokans reject:

 

1. Jesus is equal to God

2. Celebration of Easter

3. Water Baptism

4.God did not preexist Jesus- The Father and Son are co-eternal

5. One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church.

 

###The following is some doctrines of the 2nd ecumenical council Consantinople AD 381

 

The council affirmed the original Nicene creed of faith as true and an accurate explanation of Scripture. This council also developed a statement of faith which included the language of Nicaea, but expanded the discussion on the Holy Spirit to combat heresies. It is called the Nicene Creed of 381 and was a commentary on the original Nicene formula. It expanded the third article of the creed dealing with the Holy Spirit, as well as some other changes. About the Holy Spirit the article of faith said he is "the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified". The statement of proceeding from the Father is seen as significant because it established that the Holy Spirit must be of the same essence (ousia) as God the Father.

 

This Council's decision regarding the Holy Spirit also gave official endorsement to the concept of the Trinity. By the end of the 4th century, the Byzantine Emperor Theodosius "issued a decree that the doctrine of the Trinity was to be the official state religion and that all subjects shall adhere to it"

 

###So now the Trinity doctrine is mandatory for all as the result of this 2nd ecumenical council.. This is what Anonymous wants for all Molokans. Will he enforce this at swordpoint as did the Emperors Constantine and Theodosius?

 

3rd Ecumenical Council Ephesus AD 431

 

At the urging of its president, Cyril of Alexandria, the Council denounced Nestorius' teaching as erroneous and decreed that Jesus was one person, not two separate people: complete God and complete man, with a rational soul and body. The Virgin Mary was to be called Theotokos because she bore and gave birth to God as a man. This did not resolve the debate over the union of the two natures of Christ, and related issues were debated at the Council of Chalcedon.

 

###Now at this 3rd Ecumenical council because of the Trinity doctrine the door swung open for the Mary worship to begin, resulting in the decree that Mary is now officially the MOTHER OF GOD. This is what Anonymous supports that Molokans reject.

 

4th Ecumenical Council

 

The work of the council was completed by a series of 30 [2] disciplinary canons.

 

states all canons of previous councils shall remain in force, specific councils were clarified by Quinisext Council canon 2,

states that those who buy their office are anathema,

prohibits bishops from engaging in business,

bishops were given authority over the monks in their dioceses, with the right to permit or forbid the foundation of new monasteries,

travelling bishops are subject to canon law,

the clergy were forbidden to change dioceses or

to serve in the military

the poorhouses are under the jurisdiction of the bishop,

limits the ability to accuse a bishop of wrong doing,

prevents clergy belonging to multiple churches,

regards letters of travel for the poor,

no province shall be divided for the purposes of creating another church,

no clergy shall be received by others without a letter of recommendation,

regards wives and children of cantors and lectors,

a deaconess must be at least 40,

monks and nuns are forbidden to marry on pain of excommunication,

rural parishes cannot change bishops,

conspiring forbidden,

twice a year the bishops shall conduct a synod,

lists exemptions for those who have been driven to another city,

says an accuser of a bishop shall be suspect before the bishop,

makes it illegal to seize the goods of a dead bishop,

allows the expulsion of outsiders who cause trouble in Constantinople,

monasteries are permanent,

a new bishop shall be ordained within 3 months of election,

churches shall have a steward from among the congregation to monitor church business,

forbidden to carry off women under pretense of marriage (eloping),

grants equal privileges (isa presbeia) to Constantinople as of Rome because Constantinople is the New Rome as renewed by canon 36 of the Quinisext Council (the papal legates were not present for the vote on this canon, and protested it afterwards),

states a bishop cannot be demoted, only removed,

grants the Coptic Orthodox time to consider their rejection of Leo's Tome.

 

###This council forbids clergy to marry- this is direct opposition to New Testament teaching that celibacy is optional.

 

7th Ecumenical council Nicea AD 787

 

The Second Council of Nicaea was the seventh ecumenical council of Christianity; it met in 787 AD in Nicaea (site of the First Council of Nicaea) to restore the honoring of icons (or, holy images),

 

###This ecumenical council officially paved the way for icon worship- the Molokans reject this one [ Remember- EEKON NEE BOGH] I hope Anonymous is intelligent enough to reject this one outright.

 

###Also in about 500 AD the Athanasian creed was developed and this contains the Trinity doctrine in it's fullness which the Molokans reject:

 

Beginning in the 9th century, the Athanasian Creed was ascribed to St. Athanasius, Archbishop of Alexandria, who lived in the 4th century. This view was contested in the 17th century and is rejected today.[1] Reasons for rejecting Athanasius as the author are: 1) The creed originally was written in Latin. 2) It is not mentioned by Athanasius or his contemporaries. 3) It appears to address Christological controversies that developed after Athanasius died.[2]

 

Most of today's historians agree that it originated in Gaul around 500. Its theology is closely akin to that found in the writing of Western theologians

 

Athanasian Creed

 

Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.

 

Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.

 

Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.

 

For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

 

But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.

 

What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.

 

Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.

 

The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.

 

Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit:

 

And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal;

 

as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.

 

Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit:

 

And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.

 

Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God:

 

And yet there are not three gods, but one God.

 

Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord:

 

And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.

 

As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

 

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten;

 

the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father;

 

the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

 

Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.

 

And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other;

 

but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

 

Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.

 

It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.

 

For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.

 

He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother --

 

existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body;

 

equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.

 

Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.

 

He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.

 

He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.

 

For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.

 

He suffered death for our salvation.

 

He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.

 

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

 

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

 

At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of their own deeds.

 

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,

 

those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

 

This is the catholic faith.

 

One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.

 

###Molokans are not saved according to the Athanasian creed except Anonymous who just loves the trinity doctrine contained within this creed. Molokans reject this creed as well as the Trinity doctrine within the creed. We already know MGR condemns the ecumenical councils, but what the non-Molokan Anonymous ignores is what Simeon Uklein said about the councils and the resultant doctrines and policies:

 

"About the Ecumenical Councils and the Church Fathers. The true church of Christ existed only to the 4th century when the ecumenical councils and teachers of the church, by the interpretation of the Bible at their own discretion, distorted Christianity and mingled it with paganism"[simeon Matveev Uklein Pg. 49 Dissenters and Prisoners DHS]

 

 

Regards, RV22.

 

John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

Revelations 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants�"things which must shortly take place.

 

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Seeking- Regarding your post #54

 

You say that molokans aren't Montanists but adhere to certain aspects of Montanism

###This is true. What is so difficult to understand about adhering to certain aspects of an identity group without being identified as that particular group? You adhere to certain aspects of Martin Luther such the doctrine of "by Grace alone" for salvation...so does this mean you are a Lutheran? You reject the Apocrypha- are you a Baptist? The concept is quite simple even for a feeble minded simpleton as yourself. Molokans accept one of the core tenets of the Trinity doctrine aka Trinitarianism- the core tenet of the Son sharing the Father's Hypostasis[nature]. Does this result in Molokans being classified as Trinitarians? As much as some posters on this forum would like to think so, this is not the case due to to the fact that Molokans reject the other core tenets of Trinitarianism and the Trinity doctrine such as :

 

1. The Molokans reject the equality of the Son to the Father in the triunity of the Godhead. Simply put, the Son is not equal to the Father.

2. The Molokans believe The Son had a beginning and is not co-eternal with the Father. In other words, the Father pre-existed the Son.

 

 

To speak "Scripture" and/or "revise" it regardless if it was in dis-harmony with the Bible

 

This is exactly how cults, such as molokanism can justify their existence (sans group 1 molokans of course)

 

###Contrary to your bias, there is little if any disharmony of Molokan practice in conflict with the Bible. Seeking, when you greet others of your own "kind"[Other non-Molokans], do you greet with the Holy Kiss in harmony with the Bible? Or do you follow the translational error of the New Living Translation and greet with a "Holy handshake", which is in "dis-harmony" with the accurate and intentional meaning of the correct translation of the Bible?

 

When a false religious practice is not in agreement with Scripture have someone "reveal" a "new" message from "god" to justify the practice

###Regarding "revelation", one of the main differences within Spiritual Christianity [aka Molokanism] between the Postoyanne and Priguny is that the Priguny believe visions, revelations, prophesy, healings, and miracles did not cease at Revelations 22 in ~96 AD ... the Postoyanne do to some degree depending on which Postoyanne Molokan you speak to. However, many other Postoyanne do believe in contemporary miracles and such, but draw the line at "spiritual leaping". Also there are other differences between the two groups such as the celebration of Easter and Christmas.

 

###Both Molokan groups however accept the Apocrypha and reject water Baptism.

 

As to what orthodox molokansim is, NO ONE has been able or willing to define it in basic terms

 

###The following are some of doctrines that indeed DO define Molokan orthodoxy:

 

1. Molokans reject water baptism.

2. Molokans accept the Apocrypha.

3. Molokans practice endogamy.

4. Molokans practice modesty, conservatism and conformity in appearance specifically relating to worship, i.e. clothing, seating arrangements, standing positions, beards, head coverings , etc.

5. Molokans reject military service.

6. Molokans do not eat pork, shrimp, catfish, crab, lobster, clam chowder, etc.

7. Molokans do not intoxicate, nor smoke[unfortunately this is not adherd to as examples are evident-nonetheless these are Molokan doctrines notwithstanding in opposition to the smoking and drunken state of orthodox monks, clergy and laity]

8. Molokans reject the authority and doctrines of the Ecumenical councils.

 

###As a side note the following is the definition for endogamy that Molokans practice :

 

Endogamy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Endogamy is the practice of marrying within a social group. Cultures who practice endogamy require marriage between specified social groups, classes, or ethnicities. A Danish endogamist would require marriage only to other Danes. Just about any accepted social grouping may provide a boundary for endogamy. Despite the fact that many people tend to marry members of their own social group, there are some groups that practice endogamy very strictly as an inherent part of their moral values, traditions or religious beliefs. The caste-system of India is based on an order of (predominantly) endogamous groups and its formation has been suggested to have originated from the social organization of endogamous groups.

 

Endogamy encourages group affiliation and bonding. Endogamy is a common practice among displanted cultures attempting to make roots in new countries as it encourages group solidarity and ensures greater control over group resources (which may be important to preserve where a group is attempting to establish itself within an alien culture). It helps minorities to survive over a long time in societies with other practices and beliefs. Famous examples of strictly endogamous religious groups are the Yazidi in Northern Iraq (under Islamic majority), the Armenian-Iranians, Orthodox Jews, Old Order Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Parsi of India (a non-Hindu minority in India). Ironically, endogamy can also lead to a group's extinction rather than its survival.[citation needed] While long serving to preserve their religion, the Samaritans' practice of endogamy now threatens this community. Refusal to intermarry as well as to accept converts has meant that the population of this ethnic group has dwindled to less than a thousand, and the small gene pool has contributed to disease within the community.

 

Endogamy plays an important role in social stratification and can refer to different social factors such as occupations, activities, or education. This type of social endogamy is very apparent in the United States. Actors and actresses generally marry or bond with people in a similar industry. These relationships are created because people feel more comfortable around people with similar lifestyles. The notion of class endogamy greatly affects social mobility. A son or daughter of a famous actor or musician has a much greater chance of becoming famous compared to the son or daughter of an average American worker. This is because the parents have connections in the business and can easily share them. Business also follows this pattern a lot of times. Top executives can pave the way for their offspring to follow a similar path in their business. Elite families generally contribute to endogamy within big business. As all big business works together, so do the families running them. This produces social links that are carried forward and responsible for keeping certain groups restrictive.[1] Greek organizations at many universities in the United States are a good example of endogamy. Members generally date within these organizations. This is fostered by special events held exclusively between Greek organizations. Being a member of these groups create social bonds that are continued through one`s life. Obtaining a job could be influenced by a bond created this way. Endogamy also causes certain groups to be less diversified because of the feeling to remain in one`s social group. A common example would be the small percentage of interracial marriages in the United States compared to all marriages.[2]

 

 

 

Perhaps you could as it pertains to Scripture

 

Who is Jesus?

What is His role?

Is He equal to the Father?

According to your post, I believe you agree with Uklein indicating that Jesus is less than God

Is Jesus a created being or eternal?

How is Salvation obtained for mankind?

1. Jesus is the Son of God.[1 John 5:5]

2. To provide eternal Life.[John 3:16]

3. Jesus is not equal to the Father.[John 13:16, John 14:28, John 14:31]

4. Jesus was created and begotten. Jesus did not pre-exist the Father. The Father pre-existed the Son[sirach 24:1-12][Psalms 2:7-9][Psalms 136:1-5][Proverbs 3:19]

5. Salvation is obtained by the blood atonement of Jesus' sacrifice and fullfilment of good works.[ James 2:14-26][Rev 14:13][Rev 2:12][Matthew 19:16-17][Matthew 25:31-36][Phillippians 2:12]

 

As a parting shot, do you really believe this or are you simply lifting (plagiarizing without giving credit) the majority of your posts from wikipedia because in your many words there's enough garbage to try and baffle people

 

###What is the legal requirement, and what is your official requirement?

 

###Now, Seeking, it is my turn. Will you answer my questions, or once again run away like a little boy? Here are some of my previous questions to you from my previous posts in this thread that you ran away from:

 

QUOTE

As to this alleged evidence regarding divorce, calling yourself a Christian doesn't make it so just as by being in a barn makes you a horse

 

###Alledged? Pull your head out of the sand and check for yourself. Or are you afraid of truth? After all, you are....SEEKING Truth.....aren't you? Do you deny the divorce and flip-flop of Charless Stanley? Do you deny the adultery of Jimmy Swaggart ?Do you deny the divorce and remarriage of the following, some of which married multiple times- Peter Ruckman, Hal Linsey, Jim and Tammy Bakker, Ned Graham? Do you deny the divorce and remarriage policy of many so-called Christian churches? Or are you implying that these denominations are false Christians as I say they are?

 

---------------------------------------------

 

 

 

QUOTE

More smoke from otkroveniya 22

 

Where there is smoke there is fire. Let's see just how full of road apples you are. Here is your chance to refute the following contradictions:

 

A.When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus' daughter already dead?

 

Matthew 9: 18 As Jesus was saying this, the leader of a synagogue came and knelt before him. "My daughter has just died," he said, "but you can bring her back to life again if you just come and lay your hand on her."[NLT]

 

###According to Matthew, yes Jairus' daughter was already dead.

 

Mark 5:21 Jesus got into the boat again and went back to the other side of the lake, where a large crowd gathered around him on the shore. 22 Then a leader of the local synagogue, whose name was Jairus, arrived. When he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet, 23 pleading fervently with him. "My little daughter is dying," he said. "Please come and lay your hands on her; heal her so she can live."

 

###According to Mark, No. Which is it, Seeking...Yes or No? Was she dead or still alive?

 

B.According to many Christians the following prophesy is directly attributed to Jesus:

 

Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us,

a son is given to us.

The government will rest on his shoulders.

And he will be called:

Wonderful Counselor,[d] Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

In addition, Jesus emphasizes the virtue of peacemakers in the following:

 

Matthew 5:9 God blesses those who work for peace,

for they will be called the children of God.

 

Yet here the Prince of Peace says the following:

 

Matthew 10:34 "Don`t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword.[NLT]

 

###Now Seeking, which is it? Is Jesus the Prince of Peace....or division? Peace...or strife? Peace...or the sword?

Or because Jesus is the Son of God He can do whatever He wishes...including hypocricy? Telling us about peace on the one side while declaring strife and division on the other?

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

QUOTE

Lets address a couple of your "points" in and amongst your flurry of confusion and misunderstanding

 

First you will need to look at the Greek to get the best translation of the Word for the NT reference in Acts 12:4

 

πασχα pascha pas`-khah not Easter referring to the Passover held yearly

 

###Brilliant! Now that you see for yourself that the true and original meaning of Acts 12:4 is referring to the biblical Passover of the Old Testament and not to the man made holiday of Easter, you realize that you have made my point for me. Now the important question to you Seeking is that will you admit that the KJV was in error? Yes or No? Now you yourself have posted the unrefutable evidence without any of my help, will you now follow the logical conclusion of the KJV versus the Greek concerning this passage? Or will you back peddle your way into denial?

 

 

 

 

QUOTE

In the prophetic context of Isaiah 13:21 there is a list of animals being referenced that are occupying the region that was made desolate

 

From the Hebrew it's a goat...Possibly a demon possessed goat but none the less, a goat

 

 

###According to Wikipedia, a goat is:

 

The domestic goat (Capra aegagrus hircus) is a subspecies of goat domesticated from the wild goat of southwest Asia and Eastern Europe. The goat is a member of the Bovidae family and is closely related to the sheep, both being in the goat antelope subfamily Caprinae.

 

Domestic goats are one of the oldest domesticated species. For thousands of years, goats have been used for their milk, meat, hair, and skins over much of the world.[1] In the last century they have also gained some popularity as pets.[2]

 

###According to Wikipedia, Satyrs are:

 

In Greek mythology, satyrs (in Greek, ΣάτυÏοι ” Sátyroi) are a troop of male companions of Pan and Dionysus” "satyresses" were a late invention of poets” that roamed the woods and mountains. In mythology they are often associated with sex drive and vase-painters often portrayed them with uncontrollable erections.

 

In the King James Version of the Bible, Isaiah 13:21 and 34:14, the English word "satyr" is used to represent the Hebrew sh'lrlm, "hairy ones". In Hebrew folklore, sh'lrlm are a type of demon or supernatural being which inhabits waste places. There is an allusion to the practice of sacrificing to the sh'lrlm (often translated as "devils") in Leviticus 17:7. They correspond to the "shaggy demon of the mountain-pass" (azabb al-akaba) of old Arab legend.

 

###Once again Seeking, you have made my point for me. And once again the question to you.....Is the KJV in error? It is blatantly obvious...will you admit is as such? Or tap-dance your way around it?

 

 

QUOTE

As to the rest of your attempts, I'll not address because they all end up the same way...debunked

 

 

###Is this a dodge? Here is your prime opportunity for you to"debunk" the following biblical contradictions:

 

1. Seeking- Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?

 

Matthew 3:13 Then Jesus went from Galilee to the Jordan River to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to talk him out of it. "I am the one who needs to be baptized by you," he said, "so why are you coming to me?"

15 But Jesus said, "It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires." So John agreed to baptize him.[NLT]

 

###According to Matthew's account, yes.

 

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 He is the one I was talking about when I said, ˜A man is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed long before me.` 31 I did not recognize him as the Messiah, but I have been baptizing with water so that he might be revealed to Israel."

32 Then John testified, "I saw the Holy Spirit descending like a dove from heaven and resting upon him. 33 I didn`t know he was the one, but when God sent me to baptize with water, he told me, ˜The one on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.` 34 I saw this happen to Jesus, so I testify that he is the Chosen One of God."[NLT]

 

###According to John's account, no. Which is it Seeking......Yes or No?

 

2. The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once?

 

Matthew 21:18 In the morning, as Jesus was returning to Jerusalem, he was hungry, 19 and he noticed a fig tree beside the road. He went over to see if there were any figs, but there were only leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" And immediately the fig tree withered up.

20 The disciples were amazed when they saw this and asked, "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?"

 

###According to Matthew, yes.

 

Mark 11:12 The next morning as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 He noticed a fig tree in full leaf a little way off, so he went over to see if he could find any figs. But there were only leaves because it was too early in the season for fruit. 14 Then Jesus said to the tree, "May no one ever eat your fruit again!" And the disciples heard him say it.

 

15 When they arrived back in Jerusalem, Jesus entered the Temple and began to drive out the people buying and selling animals for sacrifices. He knocked over the tables of the money changers and the chairs of those selling doves, 16 and he stopped everyone from using the Temple as a marketplace. 17 He said to them, "The Scriptures declare, ˜My Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations,` but you have turned it into a den of thieves."

18 When the leading priests and teachers of religious law heard what Jesus had done, they began planning how to kill him. But they were afraid of him because the people were so amazed at his teaching.

 

19 That evening Jesus and the disciples left the city.

 

20 The next morning as they passed by the fig tree he had cursed, the disciples noticed it had withered from the roots up. 21 Peter remembered what Jesus had said to the tree on the previous day and exclaimed, "Look, Rabbi! The fig tree you cursed has withered and died!"

 

###According to Mark, no. It withered overnight. Which Gospel, Seeking, is in error?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

###Here are some new questions for you to address in addition to the previous questions that you circumvented:

 

1.Who was the high priest when David and his men ate the shew bread?

 

According to Marks gospel, Abiathar:

 

Mark 2:25 But He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: 26 how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?"

 

According to 1 Samuel 21:1-6 Ahimelech was the high priest:

 

1 Samuel 21:

1 Now David came to Nob, to Ahimelech the priest. And Ahimelech was afraid when he met David, and said to him, "Why are you alone, and no one is with you?"

2 So David said to Ahimelech the priest, "The king has ordered me on some business, and said to me, ˜Do not let anyone know anything about the business on which I send you, or what I have commanded you.` And I have directed my young men to such and such a place. 3 Now therefore, what have you on hand? Give me five loaves of bread in my hand, or whatever can be found."

4 And the priest answered David and said, "There is no common bread on hand; but there is holy bread, if the young men have at least kept themselves from women."

5 Then David answered the priest, and said to him, "Truly, women have been kept from us about three days since I came out. And the vessels of the young men are holy, and the bread is in effect common, even though it was consecrated in the vessel this day."

6 So the priest gave him holy bread; for there was no bread there but the showbread which had been taken from before the LORD, in order to put hot bread in its place on the day when it was taken away.

 

###Which is it Seeking? Was Abiathar the high priest or Ahimelech the high priest when David and his men took and ate the shewbread?

 

2.Did 24,000 Israelites die in the plague in 'Shittim' (Numbers 25:1, 9), or was it only 23,000 Israelites who died (1 Corinthians 10:8)?

 

Numbers 25:1 Now Israel remained in Acacia Grove,[shittim in Hebrew] and the people began to commit harlotry with the women of Moab. 2 They invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. 3 So Israel was joined to Baal of Peor, and the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel.

4 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of the people and hang the offenders before the LORD, out in the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may turn away from Israel."

5 So Moses said to the judges of Israel, "Every one of you kill his men who were joined to Baal of Peor."

6 And indeed, one of the children of Israel came and presented to his brethren a Midianite woman in the sight of Moses and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 7 Now when Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose from among the congregation and took a javelin in his hand; 8 and he went after the man of Israel into the tent and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her body. So the plague was stopped among the children of Israel. 9 And those who died in the plague were twenty-four thousand.

 

1 Cornthians 10] 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;

 

###So Seeking, how many Isrealites died at Shittim from plague that day- 23,000 or 24,000?

 

3.Did Solomon have 40,000 stalls for his horses (1 Kings 4:26), or 4,000 stalls (2 Chronicles 9:25)?

 

1 Kings 4:26 Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

 

2 Chronicles 9:25 Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen whom he stationed in the chariot cities and with the king at Jerusalem.

 

###Which is it Seeking? How many stalls did Solomon have?

 

Regards, RV22.

 

 

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ˜I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.`"

[Guest Huh?]

Imagine this conversation without all the name calling and chest pounding...what we could all learn.

[Guest Guest_steadfast_*]

otkroveniya22, you claim the Holy Bible has error, but continue to quote it to prove your faith. How do you differentiate Bible error from Bible truth, do you test with your opinion, or something else, do you flatly reject Gods testing procedure?............ Please tell us how YOU test for Bible truth.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Thank you for your reply otkroveniya22

 

You covered quite a bit of ground so I'll need to spend a bit of time to digest all of this and reply

 

I'll get a response back to you shortly

[seeking_truth_1 0]

In prayerfully considering a reply to you there's nothing I can say that you'll accept

 

You deny the veracity of Scripture, yet quote it

 

That does not make any sense so for me to cite Scripture as proof of your inaccurate doctrine is futile because, as in most cults, if you call into question Scripture then you can make ANYTHING up and say "god told you"

 

That is especially true with your the references to the heretic montanus and progressive revelation

 

I could try, but it seems like it would be a waste

 

It's like teaching a pig to sing...it wastes your time and it annoys the pig

 

As I had asked others... Since your jesus is not God in physical form He's incabable of forgiving sin

 

You did cover that molokans need to add works to the equation to make up the difference, but that is contrary to Scripture

 

Let's try this...

 

You say

Salvation is obtained by the blood atonement of Jesus' sacrifice and fullfilment of good works.

 

The Bible states

 

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV)

 

Maybe well start here that's assuming you don't deny this passage of Scripture and label it as inaccurate as you seem to have a tendency of doing

[seeking_truth_1 0]

I'll continue to reply to your post

 

In regards to your laundry list of identifiers for molokanism, they all appear to be primarily external behaviors that have nothing to do with Salvation so the observance or not of them DOES NOT determine your eternal destination

 

1. Molokans reject water baptism.

2. Molokans accept the Apocrypha.

3. Molokans practice endogamy.

4. Molokans practice modesty, conservatism and conformity in appearance specifically relating to worship, i.e. clothing, seating arrangements, standing positions, beards, head coverings , etc.

5. Molokans reject military service.

6. Molokans do not eat pork, shrimp, catfish, crab, lobster, clam chowder, etc.

7. Molokans do not intoxicate, nor smoke[unfortunately this is not adherd to as examples are evident-nonetheless these are Molokan doctrines notwithstanding in opposition to the smoking and drunken state of orthodox monks, clergy and laity]8. Molokans reject the authority and doctrines of the Ecumenical councils.

 

Water Baptism is a practice that was observed by Jesus. Jesus gave two ordinances to observe to the Church - Water Baptism and Communion. If you do, or do not practice these, it will not have a bearing on your eternal destination. The Thief on the cross did not get baptized, nor had pomenki or did ANY good works yet is in Heaven. That is because of his faith in Jesus and nothing else

 

Acceptance of the apocrypha is something that does open the door to false Christian teaching especially in the area of Salvation by works. The idea of prayer for the dead has it's origins in the apocrypha and clearly the Bible teaches this is a worthless practice

 

Endogamy is a personal choice. Can you observe it, sure... However the "spiritual" significance many place upon it is not Biblical. The reasoning for the practice of endogamy among molokans finds it's roots in the "new israel" idea. In fact many, in an effort to support the practice, will cite OT passages that God spoke to the Jews not to intermarry with pagans. In the New Testament, God warns Christians to not engage in the same. It has NOTHING to do with molokans marrying non-molokans, rather Christians marrying non-Christians.

"Don`t team up with those who are unbelievers. How can goodness be a partner with wickedness? How can light live with darkness?" (2Corinthians 6:14 NLT)

Propriety of dress is a Biblical principal. However, the idea of propriety in dress is used by molokans to hang on to traditional costumes having more to do with cultural identity than Biblical practice. There are plenty of dresses and suits that are proper and modest that do not require a specific style. In fact no where in the Bible does it say that "thou shalt wear russians shirts". Furthermore, it's not a Salvation issue either. What you wear has more to do with a religious practice than anything else. To go a little further, if you REALLY wanted to be Biblical about it, a 10.00 dress from a thrift store would be "more spiritual" than a 400.00 Russian "outfit". By the way, lose the jewelry to really be "spiritual".

 

Don't you think driving down the street dressed like a russian stacking doll draws undue attention?

 

Check your motives

 

"And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes." (1Timothy 2:9 NLT)

 

Rejection of military service is often misguided by a mis-application and mis-translation of one of the 10 Commandments. God, in multiple places throughout Scripture, has called His people to battle so to make a blanket policy against military doesn't stand up. In addition, there is also a requirement that Christians be obedient to those placed in authority, by God. I would suspect that a possible reason why molokans don't want military service is because they very well might have to share accommodations with "ne-nash" and eat whatever is placed before them. If you are a Christian and serve in the military you are not going to Hell. The idea of a refusal to serve in the military is a religious practice that really does not bear out in Scripture

"1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.

2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow." (Romans 13:1-2 NLT)

 

 

Food laws are also not a Salvation issue. If you eat a ham sandwich as a Christian, you are not going to Hell. I believe that this practice is a choice that one may or many not observe. Peter ate with the Gentiles so is he in Hell? The disciples in Samaria didn't have the choice of going to the local "jewish deli" for lunch when Jesus met the woman at the well so are they in Hell?

 

Jesus taught it's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you but what comes out that does. Christians have liberty to eat or not eat. There is one thing, you do need to be careful how you practice your liberty. I would not knowingly serve a pork roast (actually I wouldn't do so at all) to Christian I know observes food laws so as not to stumble and make them uncomfortable. If that same Christian who observes the food laws was served the same by someone who did not know, they are at liberty to consume and probably should not stumble the host by making a big stink about it.

 

"10 Then Jesus called to the crowds and said, "Listen to what I say and try to understand. 11 You are not defiled by what you eat; you are defiled by what you say and do."

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?"

13 Jesus replied, "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be rooted up," (Matthew 15:10-13 NLT)

 

Why were the Jews offended? Because Jesus was dealing with their worthless religion

"1 Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from what we believe; they will follow lying spirits and teachings that come from demons.

2 These teachers are hypocrites and liars. They pretend to be religious, but their consciences are dead.

3 They will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten with thanksgiving by people who know and believe the truth.

4 Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it. We may receive it gladly, with thankful hearts.

5 For we know it is made holy by the word of God and prayer." (1Timothy 4:1-5 NLT)

 

There is ample evidence that drinking and smoking is not appropriate for the Christian. However, there is liberty for the Christian who has a glass of wine with dinner or a cigar after. It's all in how you exercise your liberty so as not to stumble a weaker Brother in Christ. I would not knowingly engage in behavior that would potentially stumble someone who struggles in a particular area.

 

"20 Don`t tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, there is nothing wrong with these things in themselves. But it is wrong to eat anything if it makes another person stumble.

21 Don`t eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another Christian to stumble.

22 You may have the faith to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves by doing something they know is all right.

23 But if people have doubts about whether they should eat something, they shouldn`t eat it. They would be condemned for not acting in faith before God. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning." (Romans 14:20-23 NLT)

 

I'll address the ecumenical council stuff in another post

[LTTBT 0]

1. Molokans reject water baptism.

 

This is a personal choice.

 

2. Molokans accept the Apocrypha.

 

Havent studied this one yet. As soon as I finish the Scriptures, I'll start it.

 

3. Molokans practice endogamy.

 

Given the divorce rate and unhealthy marriages in the community....I don't think this guarantees anything.

 

4. Molokans practice modesty, conservatism and conformity in appearance specifically relating to worship, i.e. clothing, seating arrangements, standing positions, beards, head coverings , etc.

 

Worship should have no bounds, it should be from the soul and not contained in any man ordained proceedures.

We may practice these things, but we will never get them right.

 

5. Molokans reject military service.

 

I thank God for those who do not.

 

6. Molokans do not eat pork, shrimp, catfish, crab, lobster, clam chowder, etc.

 

This also is a personal choice. Youd be suprised what we all have ate...even in church.

 

 

7. Molokans do not intoxicate, nor smoke[unfortunately this is not adherd to as examples are evident-nonetheless these are Molokan doctrines notwithstanding in opposition to the smoking and drunken state of orthodox monks, clergy and laity]

 

We hide the fact that we do these things, and therfore are in compliance with this doct-e-r-in.

 

 

8. Molokans reject the authority and doctrines of the Ecumenical councils.

 

 

I have no idea who or what this is, again after I have a complete understanding of the Scriptures, I'll cheq it out.

 

 

 

I'm not a good molokad, based on these items.

[Guest Guest_steadfast_*]

I'll continue to reply to your post

 

In regards to your laundry list of identifiers for molokanism, they all appear to be primarily external behaviors that have nothing to do with Salvation so the observance or not of them DOES NOT determine your eternal destination

 

1. Molokans reject water baptism.

2. Molokans accept the Apocrypha.

3. Molokans practice endogamy.

4. Molokans practice modesty, conservatism and conformity in appearance specifically relating to worship, i.e. clothing, seating arrangements, standing positions, beards, head coverings , etc.

5. Molokans reject military service.

6. Molokans do not eat pork, shrimp, catfish, crab, lobster, clam chowder, etc.

7. Molokans do not intoxicate, nor smoke[unfortunately this is not adherd to as examples are evident-nonetheless these are Molokan doctrines notwithstanding in opposition to the smoking and drunken state of orthodox monks, clergy and laity]8. Molokans reject the authority and doctrines of the Ecumenical councils.

 

Water Baptism is a practice that was observed by Jesus. Jesus gave two ordinances to observe to the Church - Water Baptism and Communion. If you do, or do not practice these, it will not have a bearing on your eternal destination. The Thief on the cross did not get baptized, nor had pomenki or did ANY good works yet is in Heaven. That is because of his faith in Jesus and nothing else

 

Acceptance of the apocrypha is something that does open the door to false Christian teaching especially in the area of Salvation by works. The idea of prayer for the dead has it's origins in the apocrypha and clearly the Bible teaches this is a worthless practice

 

Endogamy is a personal choice. Can you observe it, sure... However the "spiritual" significance many place upon it is not Biblical. The reasoning for the practice of endogamy among molokans finds it's roots in the "new israel" idea. In fact many, in an effort to support the practice, will cite OT passages that God spoke to the Jews not to intermarry with pagans. In the New Testament, God warns Christians to not engage in the same. It has NOTHING to do with molokans marrying non-molokans, rather Christians marrying non-Christians.

"Don`t team up with those who are unbelievers. How can goodness be a partner with wickedness? How can light live with darkness?" (2Corinthians 6:14 NLT)

Propriety of dress is a Biblical principal. However, the idea of propriety in dress is used by molokans to hang on to traditional costumes having more to do with cultural identity than Biblical practice. There are plenty of dresses and suits that are proper and modest that do not require a specific style. In fact no where in the Bible does it say that "thou shalt wear russians shirts". Furthermore, it's not a Salvation issue either. What you wear has more to do with a religious practice than anything else. To go a little further, if you REALLY wanted to be Biblical about it, a 10.00 dress from a thrift store would be "more spiritual" than a 400.00 Russian "outfit". By the way, lose the jewelry to really be "spiritual".

 

Don't you think driving down the street dressed like a russian stacking doll draws undue attention?

 

Check your motives

 

"And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes." (1Timothy 2:9 NLT)

 

Rejection of military service is often misguided by a mis-application and mis-translation of one of the 10 Commandments. God, in multiple places throughout Scripture, has called His people to battle so to make a blanket policy against military doesn't stand up. In addition, there is also a requirement that Christians be obedient to those placed in authority, by God. I would suspect that a possible reason why molokans don't want military service is because they very well might have to share accommodations with "ne-nash" and eat whatever is placed before them. If you are a Christian and serve in the military you are not going to Hell. The idea of a refusal to serve in the military is a religious practice that really does not bear out in Scripture

"1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.

2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow." (Romans 13:1-2 NLT)

 

 

Food laws are also not a Salvation issue. If you eat a ham sandwich as a Christian, you are not going to Hell. I believe that this practice is a choice that one may or many not observe. Peter ate with the Gentiles so is he in Hell? The disciples in Samaria didn't have the choice of going to the local "jewish deli" for lunch when Jesus met the woman at the well so are they in Hell?

 

Jesus taught it's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you but what comes out that does. Christians have liberty to eat or not eat. There is one thing, you do need to be careful how you practice your liberty. I would not knowingly serve a pork roast (actually I wouldn't do so at all) to Christian someone I know observes food laws so as not to stumble and make them uncomfortable. If that same Christian who observes the food laws was served the same by someone who did not know, they are at liberty to consume and probably should not stumble the host by making a big stink about it.

 

"10 Then Jesus called to the crowds and said, "Listen to what I say and try to understand. 11 You are not defiled by what you eat; you are defiled by what you say and do."

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?"

13 Jesus replied, "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be rooted up," (Matthew 15:10-13 NLT)

 

Why were the Jews offended? Because Jesus was dealing with their worthless religion

"1 Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from what we believe; they will follow lying spirits and teachings that come from demons.

2 These teachers are hypocrites and liars. They pretend to be religious, but their consciences are dead.

3 They will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten with thanksgiving by people who know and believe the truth.

4 Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it. We may receive it gladly, with thankful hearts.

5 For we know it is made holy by the word of God and prayer." (1Timothy 4:1-5 NLT)

 

There is ample evidence that drinking and smoking is not appropriate for the Christian. However, there is liberty for the Christian who has a glass of wine with dinner or a cigar after. It's all in how you exercise your liberty so as not to stumble a weaker Brother in Christ. I would not knowingly engage in behavior that would potentially stumble someone who struggles in a particular area.

 

"20 Don`t tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, there is nothing wrong with these things in themselves. But it is wrong to eat anything if it makes another person stumble.

21 Don`t eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another Christian to stumble.

22 You may have the faith to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves by doing something they know is all right.

23 But if people have doubts about whether they should eat something, they shouldn`t eat it. They would be condemned for not acting in faith before God. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning." (Romans 14:20-23 NLT)

 

I'll address the ecumenical council stuff in another post

S...Excellent post.

 

Looking forward to reviewing the minutes of the councils.

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Seeking- Regarding your post #59

 

In prayerfully considering a reply to you there's nothing I can say that you'll accept

###This is correct, but you can keep trying.

 

As I had asked others... Since your jesus is not God in physical form He's incabable of forgiving sin

 

###Being the only begotten Son of God Jesus is quite capable of forgiving sin, contrary to your viewpoint.

 

Matthew 9:6 So I will prove to you that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins." Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, "Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!"[NLT]

 

You did cover that molokans need to add works to the equation to make up the difference, but that is contrary to Scripture

###It is not contrary to scripture. Reference the following...[ James 2:14-26][Rev 14:13][Rev 2:12][Matthew 19:16-17][Matthew 25:31-36][Phillippians 2:12]

 

Let's try this...

 

You say

QUOTE

Salvation is obtained by the blood atonement of Jesus' sacrifice and fullfilment of good works.

 

 

The Bible states

 

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV)

 

Maybe well start here that's assuming you don't deny this passage of Scripture and label it as inaccurate as you seem to have a tendency of doing

 

###What you continually forget Seeking is that your favorite verse above is not the starting point at all about salvation. Neither is it the ONLY biblical statement concerning salvation. It is the doctrine that you adhere to, meanwhile rejecting the other biblical scripture that adds a wee bit more. For example, We were created for good works," to do", to fulfill, to do works so to speak. This is emphasized in the very next verse that you choose to gloss over in your exhuberance to stress your doctrine of salvation by grace alone.

 

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God`s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.[NLT]

 

###Also Paul was at odds with himself over the doctrines of faith, as grace and works. Paul was also at odds with James over this very issue. He contradicted himself over this issue when he wrote this letter to the Romans about grace only, then upon his visit to Jerusalem he kowtowed to James and fullfilled the law[Acts: 18-26]. Then after fulfilling the law, while in prison in Rome he jumps back on the grace only bandwagon in writing Ephesians.

 

Acts 21:23 "Here`s what we want you to do. We have four men here who have completed their vow. 24 Go with them to the Temple and join them in the purification ceremony, paying for them to have their heads ritually shaved. Then everyone will know that the rumors are all false and that you yourself observe the Jewish laws.[NLT]

 

###Seeking, Paul contradicts himself. Hypocricy at its religious finest.

 

###Regarding your post #60

 

In regards to your laundry list of identifiers for molokanism, they all appear to be primarily external behaviors that have nothing to do with Salvation so the observance or not of them DOES NOT determine your eternal destination

###Contrary to your viewpoint, they fall under the "works category" and are biblical in theology. Once again your "grace only" doctrine clouds your viewpoint and blocks your acceptance of the rest of scripture.

 

 

Water Baptism is a practice that was observed by Jesus. Jesus gave two ordinances to observe to the Church - Water Baptism and Communion. If you do, or do not practice these, it will not have a bearing on your eternal destination. The Thief on the cross did not get baptized, nor had pomenki or did ANY good works yet is in Heaven. That is because of his faith in Jesus and nothing else

 

###Do not tell that to Baptists, who happen to be a very large religious group. Also the following passage contradicts your assertion that the thief found and identified the only way to eternal life:

 

Matthew 19:17 "Why ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. But to answer your question”if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments."

 

Acceptance of the apocrypha is something that does open the door to false Christian teaching especially in the area of Salvation by works. The idea of prayer for the dead has it's origins in the apocrypha and clearly the Bible teaches this is a worthless practice

###Contrary to your grace alone doctrine, the New testament shows that prayer for the dead is a comfort for the living bereaved family:

 

John 11:18 Bethany was only a few miles down the road from Jerusalem, 19 and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss. 20 When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house. 21 Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask."

 

JOHN 11:41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, "Father, thank you for hearing me. 42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me."

 

Endogamy is a personal choice. Can you observe it, sure... However the "spiritual" significance many place upon it is not Biblical. The reasoning for the practice of endogamy among molokans finds it's roots in the "new israel" idea. In fact many, in an effort to support the practice, will cite OT passages that God spoke to the Jews not to intermarry with pagans. In the New Testament, God warns Christians to not engage in the same. It has NOTHING to do with molokans marrying non-molokans, rather Christians marrying non-Christians.

 

###Seeking, not only are you a non-Molokan but a false Christian as well because of your willingness to bear arms and support of military service. In essence, you are a non Christian. True Christians do not bear arms. Jesus did not pick up the sword, neither did the Apostles, neither did the Molokans in Russia, and neither do we here in the USA. Endogamy is true Christianity when the issue of military service is at stake. You will have to come up with better reasoning and New Testament scripture to justify military service. Non-Molokans are false Christians and non Christians as long as they are willing to pick up the sword. Your stance resembles the false Christianity that resulted in the Crusades. Same mindset. Paganism in a Christ-like shroud.

 

Propriety of dress is a Biblical principal. However, the idea of propriety in dress is used by molokans to hang on to traditional costumes having more to do with cultural identity than Biblical practice. There are plenty of dresses and suits that are proper and modest that do not require a specific style

###No, there are not modest clothing available that qualifies save for sowing together an outfit that covers up the body.

 

In fact no where in the Bible does it say that "thou shalt wear russians shirts". Furthermore, it's not a Salvation issue either. What you wear has more to do with a religious practice than anything else. To go a little further, if you REALLY wanted to be Biblical about it, a 10.00 dress from a thrift store would be "more spiritual" than a 400.00 Russian "outfit". By the way, lose the jewelry to really be "spiritual".

 

###Nowhere does the Bible allow chest revealing clothing. Nowhere in the Bible is a woman allowed to worship head uncovered.

A ten dollar dress reveals more flesh than a 400 dollar Russian outfit. I do agree about losing the jewelry. It is a salvation issue for the main reason of preventing distraction and lusting.

 

Don't you think driving down the street dressed like a russian stacking doll draws undue attention?

###No it does not. What draws undue attention are the people you fellowship with who look like clowns and pin cushions with their red mohawks, nose rings and tatoos of cornrows.

 

 

Rejection of military service is often misguided by a mis-application and mis-translation of one of the 10 Commandments. God, in multiple places throughout Scripture, has called His people to battle so to make a blanket policy against military doesn't stand up. In addition, there is also a requirement that Christians be obedient to those placed in authority, by God. I would suspect that a possible reason why molokans don't want military service is because they very well might have to share accommodations with "ne-nash" and eat whatever is placed before them. If you are a Christian and serve in the military you are not going to Hell. The idea of a refusal to serve in the military is a religious practice that really does not bear out in Scripture

 

###This one issue identifies you as a non-Christian. Once again, Seeking, where is the example that Jesus picked up the

sword?

 

1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.

2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow." (Romans 13:1-2 NLT)

###Nowhere in this requirement is the necessity to bear arms for military service implied. Furthermore the requirement for pacifism is demonstrated biblically in the following pasage that you choose to ignore:

 

Matthew 26:51 Then the others grabbed Jesus and arrested him. 51 But one of the men with Jesus pulled out his sword and struck the high priest`s slave, slashing off his ear.

 

52 "Put away your sword," Jesus told him. "Those who use the sword will die by the sword. 53 Don`t you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly?

 

Food laws are also not a Salvation issue. If you eat a ham sandwich as a Christian, you are not going to Hell. I believe that this practice is a choice that one may or many not observe. Peter ate with the Gentiles so is he in Hell?

 

###Chances are very high, that if you eat ham sandwiches, then you also support military service, that you dress liberally, that you have no problems with smoking, drinking, tatoos, body piercings, etc. etc. etc. This is the mindset of liberalism in Christianity. No rules no regulations, just accept Jesus as you are. Peter ate with Gentiles, but not as the Gentiles:

 

Acts 10:14 "No, Lord," Peter declared. "I have never eaten anything that our Jewish laws have declared impure and unclean."

 

###The Jews would not even sit down with Gentiles. Peter sat down with them as simply as you would sit down in a cafeteria at work. Swine eaters abound, but you eat your own food.

 

The disciples in Samaria didn't have the choice of going to the local "jewish deli" for lunch when Jesus met the woman at the well so are they in Hell?

 

###They simply ate fruits, nuts and vegetables.

 

[quoteJesus taught it's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you but what comes out that does. Christians have liberty to eat or not eat. There is one thing, you do need to be careful how you practice your liberty. I would not knowingly serve a pork roast (actually I wouldn't do so at all) to Christian someone I know observes food laws so as not to stumble and make them uncomfortable. If that same Christian who observes the food laws was served the same by someone who did not know, they are at liberty to consume and probably should not stumble the host by making a big stink about it.

 

10 Then Jesus called to the crowds and said, "Listen to what I say and try to understand. 11 You are not defiled by what you eat; you are defiled by what you say and do."

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?"

13 Jesus replied, "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be rooted up," (Matthew 15:10-13 NLT)

 

quote]

 

###Seeking you will have to do much better that your current effort. The issue was eating with dirty hands opposing the Pharisee hand washing ritual.

 

Matthew 15:Some Pharisees and teachers of religious law now arrived from Jerusalem to see Jesus. They asked him, 2 "Why do your disciples disobey our age-old tradition? For they ignore our tradition of ceremonial hand washing before they eat."

 

[quote"1 Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from what we believe; they will follow lying spirits and teachings that come from demons.

2 These teachers are hypocrites and liars. They pretend to be religious, but their consciences are dead.

3 They will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten with thanksgiving by people who know and believe the truth.

4 Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it. We may receive it gladly, with thankful hearts.

5 For we know it is made holy by the word of God and prayer." (1Timothy 4:1-5 NLT)

quote]

 

###This pasage you quote was in response to the vegetarians who pushed their viewpoint upon others.The NKJV clarifies the confusion:

 

 

1 Timothy 4 (New King James Version)

New King James Version (NKJV)

1 Timothy 4

The Great Apostasy

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

 

###God created to be received with thansgiving- kosher animals.

 

quoteThere is ample evidence that drinking and smoking is not appropriate for the Christian. However, there is liberty for the Christian who has a glass of wine with dinner or a cigar after. It's all in how you exercise your liberty so as not to stumble a weaker Brother in Christ. I would not knowingly engage in behavior that would potentially stumble someone who struggles in a particular area.

quote

 

###Is smoking good or bad for the body? Have people died from mouth cancer smoking cigars? Throat cancer? Do people die from second hand smoke? What purpose does polluting your body and the surrounding air serve? Yes, gluttony is bad as well.

How many times have alcoholics said they started drinking as youngsters accessing Daddy's wine cabinet?

 

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God`s.

 

###Also, Seeking, there are three more identifiers of historical Spiritual Christianity aka Molokanism that you will find in the historical accounts:

 

9. Molokans greet each other with and conduct/fulfill the Holy Kiss.

10.Molokans do not employ paid clergy.

11.Molokans do not use musical instruments for church services.

 

Regards, RV22.

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings LTTBT

 

QUOTE(Guestotkroveniya22 #### Feb 25 2008, 12:35 AM)

1. Molokans reject water baptism.

 

 

This is a personal choice.

###It is not a personal choice if you are a Spiritual Christian aka Molokan. You are not a Molokan.

 

QUOTE(Guestotkroveniya22 #### Feb 25 2008, 12:35 AM)

5. Molokans reject military service.

 

 

I thank God for those who do not.

 

###Your support of military service identifies you as a non-Molokan, an Apostate Molokan, or a Reformed Molokan, but not a historical Spiritual Christian aka Molokan.

 

 

QUOTE(Guestotkroveniya22 #### Feb 25 2008, 12:35 AM)

6. Molokans do not eat pork, shrimp, catfish, crab, lobster, clam chowder, etc.

 

 

This also is a personal choice. Youd be suprised what we all have ate...even in church

###This was one of the tenets of Spiritual Christianity. You are not Molokan.

 

I'm not a good molokad, based on these items.

 

###Actually, LTTBT, you are not a Molokan at all anymore, if you ever were to begin with.

 

Regards, RV22.

[lastinline 0]

Greetings LTTBT

###Actually, LTTBT, you are not a Molokan at all anymore, if you ever were to begin with.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

LTTBT, Please be comforted in the Truth of Christ's Words.

 

John 3:19 Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20. They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished. 21. But those who do what is right come to the light gladly, so everyone can see that they are doing what God wants."

NLT

 

Nothing has changed and we all need to be on guard for people, such as RV22 and the darkness they wish to snare us with.

 

Matthew 16:12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

NKJV

 

lastinline

[LTTBT 0]

Greetings LTTBT

 

QUOTE(Guestotkroveniya22 #### Feb 25 2008, 12:35 AM)

1. Molokans reject water baptism.

 

 

This is a personal choice.

###It is not a personal choice if you are a Spiritual Christian aka Molokan. You are not a Molokan.

 

QUOTE(Guestotkroveniya22 #### Feb 25 2008, 12:35 AM)

5. Molokans reject military service.

 

 

I thank God for those who do not.

###Your support of military service identifies you as a non-Molokan, an Apostate Molokan, or a Reformed Molokan, but not a historical Spiritual Christian aka Molokan.

 

 

QUOTE(Guestotkroveniya22 #### Feb 25 2008, 12:35 AM)

6. Molokans do not eat pork, shrimp, catfish, crab, lobster, clam chowder, etc.

 

 

This also is a personal choice. Youd be suprised what we all have ate...even in church

###This was one of the tenets of Spiritual Christianity. You are not Molokan.

 

I'm not a good molokad, based on these items.

###Actually, LTTBT, you are not a Molokan at all anymore, if you ever were to begin with.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

I am a Repentive, Forgiven, Holy Spirit filled, creation of God, for His glory...

[Guest Guest_anakainosis_*]

Hey, Seek

 

If anybody rejects water baptism, are they not rejecting Christ? The sign of the old covenant was circumcision as commanded by God. The sign of the new covenant in Christ is water baptism.

 

Did not Christ himself institute this?

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Yup

 

That's what my Bible states

 

Hey, Seek

 

If anybody rejects water baptism, are they not rejecting Christ? The sign of the old covenant was circumcision as commanded by God. The sign of the new covenant in Christ is water baptism.

 

Did not Christ himself institute this?

[seeking_truth_1 0]

###Being the only begotten Son of God Jesus is quite capable of forgiving sin, contrary to your viewpoint.

 

Your "jesus" cannot forgive sin if he's a man or anything less than God in phyiscal form

 

Only God can forgive sin

 

Haven't you read:

"5 Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, "My son, your sins are forgiven."

6 But some of the teachers of religious law who were sitting there said to themselves,

7 "What? This is blasphemy! Who but God can forgive sins!"" (Mark 2:5-7 NLT)

 

Who else but God can forgive sin? Even the false religious leaders knew this

 

###What you continually forget Seeking is that your favorite verse above is not the starting point at all about salvation. Neither is it the ONLY biblical statement concerning salvation. It is the doctrine that you adhere to, meanwhile rejecting the other biblical scripture that adds a wee bit more. For example, We were created for good works," to do", to fulfill, to do works so to speak. This is emphasized in the very next verse that you choose to gloss over in your exhuberance to stress your doctrine of salvation by grace alone.

 

It seems that what you continually forget is that your self-righteous acts are worthless in terms of adding to Salvation or somehow effecting Salvation

 

You do not understand the idea of Grace being unmerited favor

 

Sure the Christian has good works to do but it IS NOT to obtain Salvation but rather a proof of Salvation

 

Haven't you read:

 

"Now someone may argue, "Some people have faith; others have good deeds." I say, "I can`t see your faith if you don`t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds."" (James 2:18 NLT)

 

By the way, when was the last time you welcomed a stanger into your "church" and fed him or went into the streets and proclaimed the Gospel to "ne-nash"

 

"35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.

36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.`" (Matthew 25:35-36 NLT)

 

Remember it's not hiding in your little closed club being nice to other "nash"

 

Haven't you read:

 

"37 Jesus replied, "˜You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.`

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 A second is equally important: ˜Love your neighbor as yourself.`" (Matthew 22:37-39 NLT)

 

Who is your neighbor in your "whites-only" club?

 

###Also Paul was at odds with himself over the doctrines of faith, as grace and works. Paul was also at odds with James over this very issue. He contradicted himself over this issue when he wrote this letter to the Romans about grace only, then upon his visit to Jerusalem he kowtowed to James and fullfilled the law[Acts: 18-26]. Then after fulfilling the law, while in prison in Rome he jumps back on the grace only bandwagon in writing Ephesians.

 

Acts 21:23 "Here`s what we want you to do. We have four men here who have completed their vow. 24 Go with them to the Temple and join them in the purification ceremony, paying for them to have their heads ritually shaved. Then everyone will know that the rumors are all false and that you yourself observe the Jewish laws.[NLT]

 

It's all about the context of the passage. There is ABSOLUTELY no contradiction

 

If you read the entire passage, Paul is dealing with mis-guided religious teachings

 

In fact the answer is in the very next verse which you failed to cite

 

"25 "As for the Gentile Christians, all we ask of them is what we already told them in a letter: They should not eat food offered to idols, nor consume blood, nor eat meat from strangled animals, and they should stay away from all sexual immorality."

26 So Paul agreed to their request, and the next day he went through the purification ritual with the men and went to the Temple. Then he publicly announced the date when their vows would end and sacrifices would be offered for each of them." (Acts 21:25-26 NLT)

 

Seeing as you ARE NOT a Jew, that would make you a gentile

 

 

###Regarding your post #60

 

In regards to your laundry list of identifiers for molokanism, they all appear to be primarily external behaviors that have nothing to do with Salvation so the observance or not of them DOES NOT determine your eternal destination

###Contrary to your viewpoint, they fall under the "works category" and are biblical in theology. Once again your "grace only" doctrine clouds your viewpoint and blocks your acceptance of the rest of scripture.

 

You still do not understand Grace as unmerited favor and because of pride want to "help" God in "earning" Salvation

 

Haven't you read:

 

"We are all infected and impure with sin. When we proudly display our righteous deeds, we find they are but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall. And our sins, like the wind, sweep us away." (Isaish 64:6 NLT)

 

So which filthy rag is going to "earn" your Salvation?

 

 

Water Baptism is a practice that was observed by Jesus. Jesus gave two ordinances to observe to the Church - Water Baptism and

 

Communion. If you do, or do not practice these, it will not have a bearing on your eternal destination. The Thief on the cross did not

 

get baptized, nor had pomenki or did ANY good works yet is in Heaven. That is because of his faith in Jesus and nothing else

 

###Do not tell that to Baptists, who happen to be a very large religious group. Also the following passage contradicts your assertion

 

that the thief found and identified the only way to eternal life:

 

Matthew 19:17 "Why ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. But to answer your question�"if you want

 

to receive eternal life, keep the commandments."

 

The Baptists are a large religious group? So what?

 

So are the mormons...Does that make their doctrine Biblically accurate?

 

Of course not

 

The Baptists are incorrect in their assertion that baptism is required for Salvation. Again the Thief on the Cross DID NOT have a baptism yet is in Heaven

 

You still haven't read:

 

"And the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as the person who has broken all of God`s laws." (James 2:10 NLT)

 

So if you are not "keeping" the law PERFECTLY you'll NEVER make it

 

By the way Jesus expanded on this teaching that it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow the law perfectly no matter how hard you try

"27 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, ˜Do not commit adultery.`

28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:27-28 NLT)

"21 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, ˜Do not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.`

22 But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell." (Matthew 5:21-22 NLT)

 

Looks like you friend the "occasional guest" (apart from Accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior) is going to hell for calling the parents of the deceased child "stupid"

 

Acceptance of the apocrypha is something that does open the door to false Christian teaching especially in the area of Salvation by works. The idea of prayer for the dead has it's origins in the apocrypha and clearly the Bible teaches this is a worthless practice

###Contrary to your grace alone doctrine, the New testament shows that prayer for the dead is a comfort for the living bereaved family:

 

John 11:18 Bethany was only a few miles down the road from Jerusalem, 19 and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss. 20 When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house. 21 Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask."

 

JOHN 11:41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, "Father, thank you for hearing me. 42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me."

 

It gives the family comfort?

 

I guess it could if they don't know the Bible

 

One thing that it sure does do is give the family false hope for a religious practice that does not bear out in Scripture

 

By the way, Lazarus was physically raised from the dead...

 

When has there EVER been a pomenki where the deceased was physically raised from the dead?

 

Another mis-application of Scripture to try and justify a false religious practice

 

 

Endogamy is a personal choice.

 

Can you observe it, sure... However the "spiritual" significance many place upon it is not Biblical. The reasoning for the practice of endogamy among

 

molokans finds it's roots in the "new israel" idea. In fact many, in an effort to support the practice, will cite OT passages that God spoke to the Jews not to intermarry with pagans. In the New Testament, God warns Christians to not engage in the same. It has NOTHING to do with molokans marrying non-molokans, rather Christians marrying non-Christians.

 

###Seeking, not only are you a non-Molokan but a false Christian as well because of your willingness to bear arms and support of military service. In essence, you are a non Christian. True Christians do not bear arms. Jesus did not pick up the sword, neither did the Apostles, neither did the Molokans in Russia, and neither do we here in the USA. Endogamy is true Christianity when the issue of military service is at stake. You will have to come up with better reasoning and New Testament scripture to justify military service. Non-Molokans are false Christians and non Christians as long as they are willing to pick up the sword. Your stance resembles the false Christianity that resulted in the Crusades. Same mindset. Paganism in a Christ-like shroud.

 

You don't know what endogamy means

 

Propriety of dress is a Biblical principal. However, the idea of propriety in dress is used by molokans to hang on to traditional costumes having more to do with cultural identity than Biblical practice. There are plenty of dresses and suits that are proper and modest that do not require a specific style

###No, there are not modest clothing available that qualifies save for sowing together an outfit that covers up the body.

 

In fact no where in the Bible does it say that "thou shalt wear russians shirts". Furthermore, it's not a Salvation issue either.

 

What you wear has more to do with a religious practice than anything else. To go a little further, if you REALLY wanted to be Biblical about it, a 10.00 dress from a thrift store would be "more spiritual" than a 400.00 Russian "outfit". By the way, lose the jewelry to really be "spiritual".

###Nowhere does the Bible allow chest revealing clothing. Nowhere in the Bible is a woman allowed to worship head uncovered.

A ten dollar dress reveals more flesh than a 400 dollar Russian outfit. I do agree about losing the jewelry. It is a salvation issue for the main reason of preventing distraction and lusting.

 

What you wear is a "salvation" issue?

 

How in the heck does that work?

 

Haven't you read:

 

"14 For Christ himself has made peace between us Jews and you Gentiles by making us all one people. He has broken down the wall of hostility that used to separate us.

15 By his death he ended the whole system of Jewish law that excluded the Gentiles. His purpose was to make peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new person from the two groups.

16 Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death, and our hostility toward each other was put to death." (Ephesians 2:14-16 NLT)

 

Your clothing choice has NOTHING to do with Salvation...

Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death

Now you're just trying to justify a tradition and I can prove it

 

All you need is a couple of these for less than 10 bucks

 

 

After it's all done, you may have enough material left over for a belt

 

Sure there's modest clothing that's a heck of a lot less expensive than a russian "outfit"

 

 

Don't you think driving down the street dressed like

 

a russian stacking doll draws undue attention?

###No it does not. What draws undue attention are the people you fellowship with who look like clowns and pin cushions with their red mohawks, nose rings and tatoos of cornrows.

 

So you're comparing the ridiculosity (I just made it up) of body piercings, mohawks and tatoos to looking like a russian stacking doll

 

I would have to agree

 

They are equally ridiculous

 

The point of the matter still remains that it's a CHOICE and looking one way or another isn't better or worse

 

What is the context of the passage?

 

"in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing," (1Timothy 2:9 NKJV)

 

Modest in propriety and moderation

 

russian outfits are worn like a "badge of honor" especially to those "ne-nash" as if to say "look at how spiritual and holy i am"

 

Within the "church" it's a comparison of who has more swarovski crystal beads than the next and "ooh, that must have been expensive" comments

 

Please, you're kidding yourself

 

You're just trying to justify a CHOICE; Don't try and spiritualize it

 

Rejection of military service is often misguided by a mis-application and mis-translation of one of the 10 Commandments. God, in multiple places throughout Scripture, has called His people to battle so to make a blanket policy against military doesn't stand up. In addition, there is also a requirement that Christians be obedient to those placed in authority, by God. I would suspect that a possible reason why molokans don't want military service is because they very well might have to share accommodations with "ne-nash" and eat whatever is placed before them. If you are a Christian and serve in the military you are not going to Hell. The idea of a refusal to serve in the military is a religious practice that really does not bear out in Scripture

 

###This one issue identifies you as a non-Christian. Once again, Seeking, where is the example that Jesus picked up the

sword?

 

1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.

2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow." (Romans 13:1-2 NLT)

###Nowhere in this requirement is the necessity to bear arms for military service implied. Furthermore the requirement for pacifism is demonstrated biblically in the following pasage that you choose to ignore:

 

Matthew 26:51 Then the others grabbed Jesus and arrested him. 51 But one of the men with Jesus pulled out his sword and struck the high priest`s slave, slashing off his ear.

 

52 "Put away your sword," Jesus told him. "Those who use the sword will die by the sword. 53 Don`t you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly?

 

Jesus needed to go to the Cross and Peter was getting in the way...

 

This has NOTHING to do with pacifism

 

To continue:

 

Was David a Biblical character?

 

"50 So David triumphed over the Philistine giant with only a stone and sling. And since he had no sword,

51 he ran over and pulled Goliath`s sword from its sheath. David used it to kill the giant and cut off his head. When the Philistines saw that their champion was dead, they turned and ran." (1Samuel 17:50-51 NLT)

 

What about Gideon?

 

"23 Then Gideon sent for the warriors of Naphtali, Asher, and Manasseh, who joined in the chase after the fleeing army of Midian.

24 Gideon also sent messengers throughout the hill country of Ephraim, saying, "Come down to attack the Midianites. Cut them off at the shallows of the Jordan River at Beth�"barah." And the men of Ephraim did as they were told.

25 They captured Oreb and Zeeb, the two Midianite generals, killing Oreb at the rock of Oreb, and Zeeb at the winepress of Zeeb. And they continued to chase the Midianites. Afterward the Israelites brought the heads of Oreb and Zeeb to Gideon, who was by the Jordan." (Judges 7:23-25 NLT)

 

What about Moses?

 

"9 Moses commanded Joshua, "Call the Israelites to arms, and fight the army of Amalek. Tomorrow, I will stand at the top of the hill with the staff of God in my hand."

10 So Joshua did what Moses had commanded. He led his men out to fight the army of Amalek. Meanwhile Moses, Aaron, and Hur went to the top of a nearby hill.

11 As long as Moses held up the staff with his hands, the Israelites had the advantage. But whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites gained the upper hand.

12 Moses` arms finally became too tired to hold up the staff any longer. So Aaron and Hur found a stone for him to sit on. Then they stood on each side, holding up his hands until sunset.

13 As a result, Joshua and his troops were able to crush the army of Amalek." (Exodus 17:9-13 NLT)

 

What about Elijah?

"36 At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command.

37 O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself."

38 Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch!

39 And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!"

40 Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don`t let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there." (1Kings 18:36-40 NLT)

 

What about Joshua?

 

"18 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded.

19 As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire.

20 When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers.

21 When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai.

22 Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped." (Joshua 8:18-22 NLT)

 

If you want more examples I'll provide them

 

Please stop calling your refusal to submit to the authority of who God as appointed over you and call it what it is... cowardice or perhaps not wanting to "mix" with "ne-nash"

 

I'd love to see peace and no need for a standing army, but the reality is (especially in these last days) there are foes of God that are looking to destroy His people in the name of Allah or some other false god

 

Remember those who fought and died for you to be able to have the freedom to propagate your false religion

 

You very well could have been doing your services in German instead of russian if Hitler had his way

 

 

Food laws are also not a Salvation issue. If you eat a ham sandwich as a Christian, you are not going to Hell. I believe that this practice is a choice that one may or many not observe.

 

Peter ate with the Gentiles so is he in Hell?

 

###Chances are very high, that if you eat ham sandwiches, then you also support military service, that you dress liberally, that you have no problems with smoking, drinking, tatoos, body piercings, etc. etc. etc. This is the mindset of liberalism in Christianity. No rules no regulations, just accept Jesus as you are. Peter ate with Gentiles, but not as the Gentiles:

 

Acts 10:14 "No, Lord," Peter declared. "I have never eaten anything that our Jewish laws have declared impure and unclean."

 

###The Jews would not even sit down with Gentiles. Peter sat down with them as simply as you would sit down in a cafeteria at work.

 

Swine eaters abound, but you eat your own food.

 

You're too funny

 

If Peter sat down in a cafeteria at work and used ANY of the utensils, plates, cups and so forth he would have been UNCLEAN

 

If those items EVER touched an "unlcean" food item they are defiled

 

If a woman who was working during "her time" washed those dishes, served the food or was in any way present, the result would be UNCLEAN

 

I'm sure they don't have 2 sets of dishes either: UNCLEAN

 

Oh and what if this meal was prepared on the Sabbath? UNCLEAN

 

If you chose to observe the foods laws, that is a personal choice but it WILL NOT have any bearing upon your Salvation

 

 

The disciples in Samaria didn't have the choice of going to the local "jewish deli" for lunch when Jesus met the woman at the well so are they in Hell?

 

###They simply ate fruits, nuts and vegetables.

 

They did?

 

"He was alone at the time because his disciples had gone into the village to buy some food." (John 4:8 NLT)

 

Show me where it states that they "simply ate fruits vegtables and nuts" in the Bible?

 

Where did they purchase those items from?

 

It wasn't from a Jew but a "pagan" Samaritan

 

If you understood the culture of the Samaritans and their poly-theistic tendencies there would have been NOTHING in the town that would be "clean"

 

Jesus taught it's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you but what comes out that does. Christians have liberty to eat or not eat. There is one thing, you do need to be careful how you practice your liberty. I would not knowingly serve a pork roast (actually I wouldn't do so at all) to Christian someone I know observes food laws so as not to stumble and make them uncomfortable. If that same Christian who observes the food laws was served the same by someone who did not know, they are at liberty to consume and probably should not stumble the host by making a big stink about it.

 

10 Then Jesus called to the crowds and said, "Listen to what I say and try to understand.

11 You are not defiled by what you eat; you are defiled by what you say and do."

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?"

13 Jesus replied, "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be rooted up," (Matthew 15:10-13 NLT)

 

###Seeking you will have to do much better that your current effort. The issue was eating with dirty hands opposing the Pharisee hand washing ritual.

 

Matthew 15:Some Pharisees and teachers of religious law now arrived from Jerusalem to see Jesus. They asked him, 2 "Why do your disciples disobey our age-old tradition? For they ignore our tradition of ceremonial hand washing before they eat."

 

 

It has only to do with eating with dirty hands?

 

Let's look at the entire passage to get the context...

"10 Then Jesus called to the crowds and said, "Listen to what I say and try to understand.

11 You are not defiled by what you eat; you are defiled by what you say and do."

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?"

13 Jesus replied, "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be rooted up,

14 so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch."

15 Then Peter asked Jesus, "Explain what you meant when you said people aren`t defiled by what they eat."

16 "Don`t you understand?" Jesus asked him.

17 "Anything you eat passes through the stomach and then goes out of the body.

18 But evil words come from an evil heart and defile the person who says them.

19 For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all other sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.

20 These are what defile you. Eating with unwashed hands could never defile you and make you unacceptable to God!"" (Matthew 15:10-20 NLT)

 

If you do or don't eat kosher it DOESN'T matter..It's a personal choice

 

That's not the issue even though the false religious leaders want to make it an issue

 

You defile yourself by you attitudes, words and actions (Verse 11)

 

The food just goes in and out (Verse 17)

 

Try again.

 

 

"1 Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from what we believe; they will follow lying spirits and teachings that come from demons.

2 These teachers are hypocrites and liars. They pretend to be religious, but their consciences are dead.

3 They will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten with thanksgiving by people who know and believe the truth.

4 Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it. We may receive it gladly, with thankful hearts.

5 For we know it is made holy by the word of God and prayer." (1Timothy 4:1-5 NLT)

###This pasage you quote was in response to the vegetarians who pushed their viewpoint upon others.The NKJV clarifies the confusion:

 

1 Timothy 4 (New King James Version)

New King James Version (NKJV)

1 Timothy 4

The Great Apostasy

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of

demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

 

###God created to be received with thansgiving- kosher animals.

 

Vegetarians ?

 

Now you're just trippin'

 

Where does it state that in the Bible?

 

Now what does this say?

"Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." (1Timothy 4:3 AV)

 

No veggies here...

 

 

There is ample evidence that drinking and smoking is not appropriate for the Christian. However, there is liberty for the Christian who has a glass of wine with dinner or a cigar after. It's all in how you exercise your liberty so as not to stumble a weaker Brother in Christ. I would not knowingly engage in behavior that would potentially stumble someone who struggles in a particular area.

###Is smoking good or bad for the body? Have people died from mouth cancer smoking cigars? Throat cancer? Do people die from second hand smoke? What purpose does polluting your body and the surrounding air serve? Yes, gluttony is bad as well. How many times have alcoholics said they started drinking as youngsters accessing Daddy's wine cabinet?

 

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you

 

are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God`s.

 

We're in agreement here

 

###Also, Seeking, there are three more identifiers of historical Spiritual Christianity aka Molokanism that you will find in the historical accounts:

 

9. Molokans greet each other with and conduct/fulfill the Holy Kiss.

10.Molokans do not employ paid clergy.

11.Molokans do not use musical instruments for church services.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

I'm glad you brought these up...

 

There are 3 more distinctives (personal choices) that you may or not choose to practice

 

Holy Kiss... I guess that can be proven in the Bible as an acceptable practice

The question is are you doing it because of what the Bible teaches or because of mgr?

 

Paid clergy:

 

The Bible states (Note verse 10)

 

"3 This is my answer to those who question my authority as an apostle.

4 Don`t we have the right to live in your homes and share your meals?

5 Don`t we have the right to bring a Christian wife along with us as the other disciples and the Lord`s brothers and Peter do?

6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have to work to support ourselves?

7 What soldier has to pay his own expenses? And have you ever heard of a farmer who harvests his crop and doesn`t have the right to eat some of it? What shepherd takes care of a flock of sheep and isn`t allowed to drink some of the milk?

8 And this isn`t merely human opinion. Doesn`t God`s law say the same thing?

9 For the law of Moses says, "Do not keep an ox from eating as it treads out the grain." Do you suppose God was thinking only about oxen when he said this?

10 Wasn`t he also speaking to us? Of course he was. Just as farm workers who plow fields and thresh the grain expect a share of the harvest, Christian workers should be paid by those they serve.

11 We have planted good spiritual seed among you. Is it too much to ask, in return, for mere food and clothing?

12 If you support others who preach to you, shouldn`t we have an even greater right to be supported? Yet we have never used this right. We would rather put up with anything than put an obstacle in the way of the Good News about Christ.

13 Don`t you know that those who work in the Temple get their meals from the food brought to the Temple as offerings? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings.

14 In the same way, the Lord gave orders that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it." (1Corinthians 9:3-14 NLT)

 

 

Instruments?

 

"21 His brother`s name was Jubal, the first musician�"�"the inventor of the harp and flute.

22 To Lamech`s other wife, Zillah, was born Tubal�"cain. He was the first to work with metal, forging instruments of bronze and iron. Tubal�"cain had a sister named Naamah." (Genesis 4:21-22 NLT)

 

What purpose did they serve?

 

"5 "When you arrive at Gibeah of God, where the garrison of the Philistines is located, you will meet a band of prophets coming down from the altar on the hill. They will be playing a harp, a tambourine, a flute, and a lyre, and they will be prophesying.

6 At that time the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you with power, and you will prophesy with them. You will be changed into a different person." (1Samuel 10:5-6 NLT)

 

Looks like they were "rockin' out" while under the influence of Gods Spirit

 

"2 Praise the LORD with melodies on the lyre; make music for him on the ten�"stringed harp.

3 Sing new songs of praise to him; play skillfully on the harp and sing with joy." (Psalm 33:2-3 NLT)

 

If you choose to use instruments, do a good job so as not to "stinketh" up the place

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Seeking- Regarding your post #69:

 

Your "jesus" cannot forgive sin if he's a man or anything less than God in phyiscal form

 

Only God can forgive sin

###In your attempt to shore up your Trinity doctrine concept, you continue to ignore the passage of Mark 2:10-

 

Mark 2 :10- But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"[NKJV]

 

### You context this passage as if the scribes themselves cannot grasp the concept that the "Son of Man' can forgive sins meaning a person. You continue to ignore the identifying clause i.e. "Son of Man". The Son of Man can forgive sins. The scribes knew Jesus as a man and question his ability to forgive sins. Not that He was God. This idea of Jesus as God is a post Biblical idea. The scribes saw Jesus simply as a man. You are the one adding the idea of Jesus as God.

 

Haven't you read:

 

"5 Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, "My son, your sins are forgiven."

6 But some of the teachers of religious law who were sitting there said to themselves,

7 "What? This is blasphemy! Who but God can forgive sins!"" (Mark 2:5-7 NLT)

 

Who else but God can forgive sin? Even the false religious leaders knew this

 

### Jesus who call himself the "Son of Man" can forgive sins. It is you Seeking, and not the Gospel writer Mark that calls Jesus God. Also, Jesus as a mediator and as a "man" can intercede for us as well as forgive sin. Jesus is of course a unique and special type of man, but nonetheless a man:

 

1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

 

###Also Jesus authorized men to forgive sins as well:

 

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

 

Matthew 18:18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

 

###The scribes in your Mark 2 passage did not believe that Jesus had the power to forgive sins. This has nothing to do with your Trinity doctrine of elevating Jesus to the status of God.

 

Matthew 9:6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"”then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house." 7 And he arose and departed to his house.

8 Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men.

 

 

It seems that what you continually forget is that your self-righteous acts are worthless in terms of adding to Salvation or somehow effecting Salvation

 

You do not understand the idea of Grace being unmerited favor

 

Sure the Christian has good works to do but it IS NOT to obtain Salvation but rather a proof of Salvation

###The following scripture contrasts your assertion and"grace only"doctrine. You use "grace" friendly scripture while ignoring the following works passages in order to promulgate your viiew point:

 

Matthew 9:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.[Over the issue of works wil HE DIVIDE THEM- not over the issue of Grace, nor faith, but WORKS]

 

Mathew 9:40 And the King will answer and say to them, ˜Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it[works] to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.`

 

Phillippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

 

 

James 2:Faith Without Works Is Dead

 

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe”and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."[g]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

Revelations 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: ˜Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.`"

"Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

 

Revelations 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work[not Grace, but works]

 

2 Timothy 3:14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

Romans 7:2 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

 

Revelations 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

 

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

 

Romans 2: But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

 

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

 

Luke 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"

27 So he answered and said, " ˜You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,` and ˜your neighbor as yourself.`"

28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

 

Haven't you read:

 

"Now someone may argue, "Some people have faith; others have good deeds." I say, "I can`t see your faith if you don`t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds."" (James 2:18 NLT)

 

###The following translation more accurately transmits the meaning and intent of the author:

 

James 2 :18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.[NKJV]

 

###This conveys that works are the means of faith. Not just an extension of that faith.

 

By the way, when was the last time you welcomed a stanger into your "church" and fed him or went into the streets and proclaimed the Gospel to "ne-nash"

 

"35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.

36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.`" (Matthew 25:35-36 NLT)

###Seeking, your'e mistaken in your exegesis of this passage. The correct wording is "home" and not "church". You overstepped your assertion with improper exegesis.

 

###Seeking, when is the last time you went to Afhganistan to proclaim the Gospel to the pagan muslims in accordance to the very Gospel you mention?

 

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

 

###In addition,If some stranger is hungry a table is set out in the back of church for them to eat. No problem.

 

Remember it's not hiding in your little closed club being nice to other "nash"

 

Haven't you read:

 

"37 Jesus replied, "˜You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.`

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 A second is equally important: ˜Love your neighbor as yourself.`" (Matthew 22:37-39 NLT)

 

Who is your neighbor in your "whites-only" club?

 

###Are you part Hispanic, Black, Aboriginal or some other non Russian ethnic group?

 

The New Testament teaches us to peaceful towards all people, which we do.[Romans 13:10]

 

Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

 

It's all about the context of the passage. There is ABSOLUTELY no contradiction

 

If you read the entire passage, Paul is dealing with mis-guided religious teachings

 

In fact the answer is in the very next verse which you failed to cite

 

"25 "As for the Gentile Christians, all we ask of them is what we already told them in a letter: They should not eat food offered to idols, nor consume blood, nor eat meat from strangled animals, and they should stay away from all sexual immorality."

26 So Paul agreed to their request, and the next day he went through the purification ritual with the men and went to the Temple. Then he publicly announced the date when their vows would end and sacrifices would be offered for each of them." (Acts 21:25-26 NLT)

 

Seeing as you ARE NOT a Jew, that would make you a gentile

###And the passage makes it quite clear how we are to eat meat. The scripture is quite clear that strangled animals keep their blood inside. The only proper way to prepare bloodless meat is by throat slitting. Seeking, do you abide by the very verses in Acts 21:25-26 that you quote? Yes or no? Are food offered to idols fit to eat? Seeking, would you eat food offered to idols? Do you consume blood? Do you eat medium rare steaks which ooze blood if not kosher killed, or does anyone in your circle of family and friends eat this type of meat?

 

You still do not understand Grace as unmerited favor and because of pride want to "help" God in "earning" Salvation

 

Haven't you read:

 

"We are all infected and impure with sin. When we proudly display our righteous deeds, we find they are but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall. And our sins, like the wind, sweep us away." (Isaish 64:6 NLT)

 

So which filthy rag is going to "earn" your Salvation?

 

###So many grace only doctrinists such as yourself misuse and abuse this passage that your position borders on absurdity. The correct translation is :

 

Isaiah 64:6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,

And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;

And all of uswither like a leaf,

And ouriniquities, like the wind, take us away. [NASB]

 

###The proper text states that we[israel] have BECOME AS IN we[israel] were righteous once before already but fell out of righteousness. Not your assertion that everybody is not righteous to begin with. You are mistaken in believing such nonsense.

Consider the following from King David:

 

Psalms 7:8 The LORD shall judge the peoples;

Judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness,

And according to my integrity within me.

 

Psalm 18:20 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness;

According to the cleanness of my hands

He has recompensed me.

 

Psalm 18:24 Therefore the LORD has recompensed me according to my righteousness,

According to the cleanness of my hands in His sight.

 

 

The Baptists are incorrect in their assertion that baptism is required for Salvation. Again the Thief on the Cross DID NOT have a baptism yet is in Heaven

 

You still haven't read:

 

"And the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as the person who has broken all of God`s laws." (James 2:10 NLT)

 

So if you are not "keeping" the law PERFECTLY you'll NEVER make it

 

By the way Jesus expanded on this teaching that it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow the law perfectly no matter how hard you try

 

###Correct, we cannot fulfill all of the law-but we still need to follow the law. We still need to strive to keep the 10 Commandments. WE NEED TO TRY;We need to make effort:

 

 

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

 

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

 

Proverbs 28:7He who keeps the law is a discerning son,

 

Prverbs 28:9He who turns away his ear from listening to the law,

Even his prayer is an abomination

 

Proverbs 29:18Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained,

But happy is he who keeps the law.

 

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Sirach 35

1 He that keepeth the law, multiplieth offerings.

 

2 It is a wholesome sacrifice to take heed to the commandments, and to depart from all iniquity.

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Seeking- Regarding your post #69:

 

Your "jesus" cannot forgive sin if he's a man or anything less than God in phyiscal form

 

Only God can forgive sin

###In your attempt to shore up your Trinity doctrine concept, you continue to ignore the passage of Mark 2:10-

 

Mark 2 :10- But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"[NKJV]

 

### You contextualize this passage as if the scribes themselves cannot grasp the concept that the "Son of Man' can forgive sins... meaning a person. On the contrary, the scribes saw that Jesus was a MAN. You continue to ignore the identifying clause i.e. "Son of Man". The Son of Man can forgive sins. The scribes knew Jesus as a man and questioned his ability to forgive sins. Not that He was God. This idea of Jesus as God is a post Biblical idea. The scribes saw Jesus simply as a man. The scribes simply are questioning a mere human being's ability to forgive sin.You Seeking, are the one adding the idea of Jesus as God.

 

Haven't you read:

 

"5 Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, "My son, your sins are forgiven."

6 But some of the teachers of religious law who were sitting there said to themselves,

7 "What? This is blasphemy! Who but God can forgive sins!"" (Mark 2:5-7 NLT)

 

Who else but God can forgive sin? Even the false religious leaders knew this

 

### Jesus who call himself the "Son of Man" can forgive sins. It is you Seeking, and not the Gospel writer Mark that calls Jesus God. Also, Jesus as a mediator and as a "man" can intercede for us as well as forgive sin. Jesus is of course a unique and special type of man, but nonetheless a man:

 

1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

 

###Also Jesus authorized men to forgive sins as well:

 

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

 

Matthew 18:18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

 

###The scribes in your Mark 2 passage did not believe that Jesus had the power to forgive sins. This has nothing to do with your Trinity doctrine of elevating Jesus to the status of God.

 

Matthew 9:6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"”then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house." 7 And he arose and departed to his house.

8 Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men.

 

 

It seems that what you continually forget is that your self-righteous acts are worthless in terms of adding to Salvation or somehow effecting Salvation

 

You do not understand the idea of Grace being unmerited favor

 

Sure the Christian has good works to do but it IS NOT to obtain Salvation but rather a proof of Salvation

###The following scripture contrasts your assertion and"grace only"doctrine. You use "grace" friendly scripture while ignoring the following works passages in order to promulgate your viiew point:

 

Matthew 9:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.[Over the issue of works wil HE DIVIDE THEM- not over the issue of Grace, nor faith, but WORKS]

 

Mathew 9:40 And the King will answer and say to them, ˜Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it[works] to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.`

 

Phillippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

 

 

James 2:Faith Without Works Is Dead

 

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe”and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."[g]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

Revelations 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: ˜Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.`"

"Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

 

Revelations 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work[not Grace, but works]

 

2 Timothy 3:14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

Romans 7:2 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

 

Revelations 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

 

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

 

Romans 2: But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

 

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

 

Luke 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"

27 So he answered and said, " ˜You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,` and ˜your neighbor as yourself.`"

28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

 

Haven't you read:

 

"Now someone may argue, "Some people have faith; others have good deeds." I say, "I can`t see your faith if you don`t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds."" (James 2:18 NLT)

 

###The following translation more accurately transmits the meaning and intent of the author:

 

James 2 :18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.[NKJV]

 

###This conveys that works are the means of faith. Not just an extension of that faith.

 

By the way, when was the last time you welcomed a stanger into your "church" and fed him or went into the streets and proclaimed the Gospel to "ne-nash"

 

"35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.

36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.`" (Matthew 25:35-36 NLT)

###Seeking, your'e mistaken in your exegesis of this passage. The correct wording is "home" and not "church". You overstepped your assertion with improper exegesis.

 

###Seeking, when is the last time you went to Afhganistan to proclaim the Gospel to the pagan muslims in accordance to the very Gospel you mention?

 

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

 

###In addition,If some stranger is hungry a table is set out in the back of church for them to eat. No problem.

 

Remember it's not hiding in your little closed club being nice to other "nash"

 

Haven't you read:

 

"37 Jesus replied, "˜You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.`

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 A second is equally important: ˜Love your neighbor as yourself.`" (Matthew 22:37-39 NLT)

 

Who is your neighbor in your "whites-only" club?

 

###Are you part Hispanic, Black, Aboriginal or some other non Russian ethnic group?

 

The New Testament teaches us to peaceful towards all people, which we do.[Romans 13:10]

 

Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

 

It's all about the context of the passage. There is ABSOLUTELY no contradiction

 

If you read the entire passage, Paul is dealing with mis-guided religious teachings

 

In fact the answer is in the very next verse which you failed to cite

 

"25 "As for the Gentile Christians, all we ask of them is what we already told them in a letter: They should not eat food offered to idols, nor consume blood, nor eat meat from strangled animals, and they should stay away from all sexual immorality."

26 So Paul agreed to their request, and the next day he went through the purification ritual with the men and went to the Temple. Then he publicly announced the date when their vows would end and sacrifices would be offered for each of them." (Acts 21:25-26 NLT)

 

Seeing as you ARE NOT a Jew, that would make you a gentile

###And the passage makes it quite clear how we are to eat meat. The scripture is quite clear that strangled animals keep their blood inside. The only proper way to prepare bloodless meat is by throat slitting. Seeking, do you abide by the very verses in Acts 21:25-26 that you quote? Yes or no? Are food offered to idols fit to eat? Seeking, would you eat food offered to idols? Do you consume blood? Do you eat medium rare steaks which ooze blood if not kosher killed, or does anyone in your circle of family and friends eat this type of meat?

 

You still do not understand Grace as unmerited favor and because of pride want to "help" God in "earning" Salvation

 

Haven't you read:

 

"We are all infected and impure with sin. When we proudly display our righteous deeds, we find they are but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall. And our sins, like the wind, sweep us away." (Isaish 64:6 NLT)

 

So which filthy rag is going to "earn" your Salvation?

 

###So many grace only doctrinists such as yourself misuse and abuse this passage that your position borders on absurdity. The correct translation is :

 

Isaiah 64:6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,

And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;

And all of uswither like a leaf,

And ouriniquities, like the wind, take us away. [NASB]

 

###The proper text states that we[israel] have BECOME AS IN we[israel] were righteous once before already but fell out of righteousness. Not your assertion that everybody is not righteous to begin with. You are mistaken in believing such nonsense.

Consider the following from King David:

 

Psalms 7:8 The LORD shall judge the peoples;

Judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness,

And according to my integrity within me.

 

Psalm 18:20 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness;

According to the cleanness of my hands

He has recompensed me.

 

Psalm 18:24 Therefore the LORD has recompensed me according to my righteousness,

According to the cleanness of my hands in His sight.

 

 

The Baptists are incorrect in their assertion that baptism is required for Salvation. Again the Thief on the Cross DID NOT have a baptism yet is in Heaven

 

You still haven't read:

 

"And the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as the person who has broken all of God`s laws." (James 2:10 NLT)

 

So if you are not "keeping" the law PERFECTLY you'll NEVER make it

 

By the way Jesus expanded on this teaching that it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow the law perfectly no matter how hard you try

 

###Correct, we cannot fulfill all of the law-but we still need to follow the law. We still need to strive to keep the 10 Commandments. WE NEED TO TRY;We need to make effort:

 

 

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

 

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

 

Proverbs 28:7He who keeps the law is a discerning son,

 

Prverbs 28:9He who turns away his ear from listening to the law,

Even his prayer is an abomination

 

Proverbs 29:18Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained,

But happy is he who keeps the law.

 

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Sirach 35

1 He that keepeth the law, multiplieth offerings.

 

2 It is a wholesome sacrifice to take heed to the commandments, and to depart from all iniquity.

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Seeking: Referencing your post #69 in continuation-

 

###This one issue identifies you as a non-Christian. Once again, Seeking, where is the example that Jesus picked up the

sword?

 

 

QUOTE

1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.

2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow." (Romans 13:1-2 NLT)

 

###Nowhere in this requirement is the necessity to bear arms for military service implied. Furthermore the requirement for pacifism is demonstrated biblically in the following pasage that you choose to ignore:

 

Matthew 26:51 Then the others grabbed Jesus and arrested him. 51 But one of the men with Jesus pulled out his sword and struck the high priest`s slave, slashing off his ear.

 

52 "Put away your sword," Jesus told him. "Those who use the sword will die by the sword. 53 Don`t you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly?

 

 

Jesus needed to go to the Cross and Peter was getting in the way...

 

This has NOTHING to do with pacifism

 

To continue:

 

Was David a Biblical character?

###Your attempt to deflect from my question is noted. I will ask it again-

 

Seeking, where is the example that Jesus picked up the sword? My second question is... where in the New Testament is taught to pick up the sword? My third question is..... Where is the New Testament scripture that supports military service?

 

###You quoted Romans 13. However , Jesus followed God's will which was pacifistic. Furthermore, Paul was a pacifist and followed the same path. He also taught pacifism. The Romans 13 chapter teaches us to obey governments as long as they do not contradict God's will. Paul did not teach to pick up the sword. You quote from the New Testament to support your doctrine of grace only. Yet you quote the Old Testament for support of military service. In doing so you neglect/ignore/forget that Christian pacifism started with Jesus and the Apostles and the era of war heroes ended with them as well. Here are some New Testament verses that overwelmingly support Christian pacifism, martydom, and true faith. Your hatred of MGR and other Molokan martyrs has clouded your ability to properly exegete the New Testament basis for Molokan pacifism:

 

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

 

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us

 

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. 6 Now if we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective for enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

 

Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

2 Corinthians 11:24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness”

 

Phillippians 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

 

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.cts

 

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness` sake,

For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

Matthew 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, ˜You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.` 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

 

Matthew 10:21 "Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name`s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

 

Matthew 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city

 

Luke 11:49 Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ˜I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,`

 

Luke 21:12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name`s sake.

 

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you, ˜A servant is not greater than his master.` If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

 

1 Corinthians 4:11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.

 

2 Corinthians 4:8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed

 

1 Thessalonian 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men

 

Acts 8: 1 Now Saul was consenting to his death.

At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

 

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

 

" For Your sake we are killed all day long;

We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."

 

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

2 Timothy 3:10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra”what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels

 

Revelations 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

 

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,

were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented” 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

 

Revelations 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"

14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know."

So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

 

 

Regards, RV22.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Thank you for your responses

 

I'll need to take a bit of time to get through all of them and reply appropriately

[Guest Guestotkroveniya22]

Greetings Seeking: Regarding your post # 69 in continuation-

 

"21 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, ˜Do not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.`

22 But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell." (Matthew 5:21-22 NLT)

 

Looks like you friend the "occasional guest" (apart from Accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior) is going to hell for calling the parents of the deceased child "stupid"

###More of your foolish nonsense is on display. By using your silly criteria the Apostle Paul is going to hell for calling the Galatians stupid, and for calling others fools. Consider the following scripture:

 

Galatians 3:1 YOU STUPID GALATIANS! YOU MUST HAVE been bewitched--you before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly diplayed upon his cross![NEB][REB]

 

Mattthew 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ˜Raca!` shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ˜You fool!` shall be in danger of hell fire.[NKJV]

 

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?[NKJV]

 

1Corinthians 15:36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.[NKJV]

1 Corinthians 15:36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: [KJV]

 

2 Corinthians 11:16 I say again, let no one think me a fool. If otherwise, at least receive me as a fool, that I also may boast a little. [NKJV]

 

###Here Paul doesn't want to be thought of nor called a fool. But regardless, others DO think of him as one. According to your criteria, Seeking, those who think of him as one and call Paul a fool/foolish are going to hell.

 

2 Corinthians 12:. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

 

###So, here we have Paul calling others stupid and/or fools, but himself not wanting to be called nor thought of a fool. More of his hypocrisy on display. I do not know the details of Tommy Nazaroff's tragedy but one of his relatives told me that alcohol was involved. Nonetheless, I do not know enough to detail a proper response. However, if I as a parent allow my child to drink or to be unsupervised then I indeed deserve to be called stupid, and am indeed, STUPID.

 

 

John 11:18 Bethany was only a few miles down the road from Jerusalem, 19 and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss. 20 When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house. 21 Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask."

 

JOHN 11:41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, "Father, thank you for hearing me. 42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me."

 

 

It gives the family comfort?

 

I guess it could if they don't know the Bible

 

One thing that it sure does do is give the family false hope for a religious practice that does not bear out in Scripture

 

By the way, Lazarus was physically raised from the dead...

 

When has there EVER been a pomenki where the deceased was physically raised from the dead?

 

Another mis-application of Scripture to try and justify a false religious practice

 

###Contrary to your grace alone doctrine, the New testament shows that prayer for the dead is a comfort for the living bereaved family:

 

 

###There 2 points to be made from this scripture to support Pomenki. The first is that the bereaved family is comforted by the prayers and support of the community. The second is that Jesus prayed to God on behalf of the dead Lazarus. What Jesus prayed for is besides the point, in this case thanking God for hearing Jesus' prayer on behalf of Lazarus. So, no mis-application of scripture at all is conducted to justify pomenki. Not to mention the following scripture:

 

2 Maccabees 12:

 

39And the day following Judas cam with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.

 

40And they found under the coats o the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth the Jews:

 

41Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.

 

42And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.

 

43And making a gathering, he twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

 

44(For if he had not hoped that the that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

 

45And because he considered that the who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

 

46It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

 

90that all plainly saw, for this cause they were slain.

 

###Seeking, not only are you a non-Molokan but a false Christian as well because of your willingness to bear arms and support of military service. In essence, you are a non Christian. True Christians do not bear arms. Jesus did not pick up the sword, neither did the Apostles, neither did the Molokans in Russia, and neither do we here in the USA. Endogamy is true Christianity when the issue of military service is at stake. You will have to come up with better reasoning and New Testament scripture to justify military service. Non-Molokans are false Christians and non Christians as long as they are willing to pick up the sword. Your stance resembles the false Christianity that resulted in the Crusades. Same mindset. Paganism in a Christ-like shroud.

 

 

You don't know what endogamy means[seeking]

 

###More of your nonsense, Seeking. It seems rather absurd for you to say this when you were not the one to bring up the topic of Endogamy in the first place. For your clarification and education the description of Endogamy will be re-posted with my emphasis in brackets and bold typing to show how Endogamy relates to associating with ne-nash in the arena of military service and support of military service in a community setting.

 

Endogamy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Endogamy is the practice of marrying within a social group.Molokan Christian Pacifists] Cultures who practice endogamy require marriage between specified social groups, classes, or ethnicities.[Russian Spiritual Christians aka Molokans]A Danish endogamist would require marriage only to other Danes. Just about any accepted social grouping may provide a boundary for endogamy[The boundary being Russian, Molokan, and Pacifists]. Despite the fact that many people tend to marry members of their own social group, there are some groups that practice endogamy very strictly as an inherent part of their moral values, traditions or religious beliefs[This includes the vast majority of Molokans whose religion is based on the doctrine of pacifism]This is based on an order of (predominantly) endogamous groups and its formation has been suggested to have originated from the social organization of endogamous groups.

 

Endogamy encourages group affiliation and bonding[Molokans do not bond with ne-nash in a group and community setting and sepecially do nt associate with those who are military families nor with those who support military service]. Endogamy is a common practice among displanted cultures attempting to make roots in new countries as it encourages group solidarity and ensures greater control over group resources (which may be important to preserve where a group is attempting to establish itself within an alien culture)[This would apply in such activities as the building of the Los Angeles and Kerman UMCA's]. It helps minorities to survive over a long time in societies with other practices and beliefs[uMCA]. Famous examples of strictly endogamous religious groups are the Yazidi in Northern Iraq (under Islamic majority), the Armenian-Iranians, Orthodox Jews, Old Order Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Parsi of India (a non-Hindu minority in India). Ironically, endogamy can also lead to a group's extinction rather than its survival. While long serving to preserve their religion, the Samaritans' practice of endogamy now threatens this community. Refusal to intermarry as well as to accept converts has meant that the population of this ethnic group has dwindled to less than a thousand, and the small gene pool has contributed to disease within the community.

 

Endogamy plays an important role in social stratification and can refer to different social factors such as occupations, activities, or education[Molokan school]. This type of social endogamy is very apparent in the United States. Actors and actresses generally marry or bond with people in a similar industry.[The Molokan networking in the trash hauling business in Los Angeles comes to mind]

 

These relationships are created because people feel more comfortable around people with similar lifestyles. The notion of class endogamy greatly affects social mobility. A son or daughter of a famous actor or musician has a much greater chance of becoming famous compared to the son or daughter of an average American worker. This is because the parents have connections in the business and can easily share them. Business also follows this pattern a lot of times.[self employed Molokans not dealing with companies who make missiles and bombs- Nor being employed at a missile and bomb manufacturing facility]

 

 

Top executives can pave the way for their offspring to follow a similar path in their business.[Family owned business] Elite families generally contribute to endogamy within big business. As all big business works together, so do the families running them. This produces social links that are carried forward and responsible for keeping certain groups restrictive.[1] Greek organizations at many universities in the United States are a good example of endogamy. Members generally date within these organizations. This is fostered by special events held exclusively between Greek organizations. Being a member of these groups create social bonds that are continued through one`s life. Obtaining a job could be influenced by a bond created this way. Endogamy also causes certain groups to be less diversified because of the feeling to remain in one`s social group.[Not associating with military supporting families] A common example would be the small percentage of interracial marriages in the United States compared to all marriages.[2]

 

 

QUOTE

In fact no where in the Bible does it say that "thou shalt wear russians shirts". Furthermore, it's not a Salvation issue either.

 

What you wear has more to do with a religious practice than anything else. To go a little further, if you REALLY wanted to be Biblical about it, a 10.00 dress from a thrift store would be "more spiritual" than a 400.00 Russian "outfit". By the way, lose the jewelry to really be "spiritual".

###Nowhere does the Bible allow chest revealing clothing. Nowhere in the Bible is a woman allowed to worship head uncovered.

A ten dollar dress reveals more flesh than a 400 dollar Russian outfit. I do agree about losing the jewelry. It is a salvation issue for the main reason of preventing distraction and lusting.

 

 

What you wear is a "salvation" issue?

 

How in the heck does that work?

###Our lusting is based on vision. And this temptation of seeing excessively exposed body parts facilitates lusting. The following scripture clearly and emphatically emphasizes the relationship clothing has with the visual aspect lusting by vision. The blind person cannot see and thus lust through visionary means. Those that are not blind can see and thus lust through vision. The propriety and modesty/conservatism of clothing indeed is a salvation-based issue:

 

Matthew 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ˜You shall not commit adultery.` 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

 

Matthew 18:8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

 

Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire” 48 where

 

 

˜ Their worm does not die

And the fire is not quenched.`

 

Haven't you read:

 

"14 For Christ himself has made peace between us Jews and you Gentiles by making us all one people. He has broken down the wall of hostility that used to separate us.

15 By his death he ended the whole system of Jewish law that excluded the Gentiles. His purpose was to make peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new person from the two groups.

16 Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death, and our hostility toward each other was put to death." (Ephesians 2:14-16 NLT)

 

Your clothing choice has NOTHING to do with Salvation...Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death

 

Now you're just trying to justify a tradition and I can prove it

 

All you need is a couple of these for less than 10 bucks

 

 

 

After it's all done, you may have enough material left over for a belt

 

Sure there's modest clothing that's a heck of a lot less expensive than a russian "outfit"

 

###If you would scroll down another 2 verses you would see the punchline to your Ephesians quote that binds the whole context of your scripture citation into the following verse:

 

Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

 

###What the Apostle Paul is saying here has no bearing with the subject matter of salvation as it pertains to clothing. The message here is that both Jews and Gentiles have access to God. The Jews of Ephesus certainly did not think of Paul's dissertation of your scripture citation as binding either. Consider the following:

 

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue[in Ephesus] and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 10 And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks

 

###You tossed up a another non-sequitor. Now stay with me and on topic. Russian shirt and outfit material can be bought at the local Wal-mart and self sown for much much less than 400 dollars and still fulfill the requirement of covering up the body sufficiently and conservatively much better than whatever can be bought from the Goodwill or Salvation Army thrift store. Furthermore, if your were a Molokan, you would have known that the Molokan community has an extensive network of passing on Russian shirts and outfits to be recycled by immediate family members as well as extended family and friends. Just one of the benefits that Endogamy encompasses within our Spiritual Christian Brotherhood.

 

###Now Seeking, are you willing to wear burlap sacks? Not even the Apostles nor Jesus wore burlap garments, but tunics and such that were made from better material. There might have been some exceptions, but not with the disciples. Furthermore if you are implying that somehow your pictured example represents sackcloth, no one wore sack cloth as a matter of regular clothing but as a specific act of mourning and representative as such.The following information illustrates the specificity of sackcloth usage:

 

Cilice

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Hairshirt" redirects here. For other uses, see Hairshirt (disambiguation).

A cilice was originally a garment or undergarment made of coarse cloth or animal hair (a hairshirt). In more modern religious circles, the word has come to simply mean an object that can be worn to induce some degree of discomfort or pain.

 

Contents [hide]

1 Usage

1.1 Sackcloth and ashes

2 Modern usage

3 Etymology

4 References

5 External links

 

 

 

[edit] Usage

 

Holbein's portrait of Thomas MoreSuch garments or adornments have been worn at various times in the history of the Christian faith, to mortify the flesh or as penance for adorning oneself. Being made of rough cloth, generally woven from goats' hair, and worn close to the skin, they would feel very itchy. When worn continuously, it could form a breeding-ground for lice, which would heighten the discomfort.

 

Cilices were worn by ascetics, saints, monks, and lay persons. In the Holbein portrait of Thomas More, a small portion of a hairshirt appears to be visible near the wrists and at the neck under the fine robes of office. Thomas Becket was wearing one when he was murdered, St. Patrick reputedly wore one, Charlemagne was buried in a hairshirt, and Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Germany, famously wore one in the Walk to Canossa during the Investiture Controversy. Prince Henry the Navigator was found to be wearing a hairshirt at the time of his death in 1460.[citation needed]

 

 

[edit] Sackcloth and ashes

To show deep repentance, it was the custom in Biblical times to wear a hairshirt (sackcloth) and ashes.[1]

 

 

[edit] Modern usage

 

Closeup of a metal cilice with inwardly-pointing spikesIn more recent times the word has come to refer not to a hairshirt, but to a spiked metal belt or chain worn strapped tight around the upper thigh.[2] Many religious orders within the Roman Catholic Church have used the cilice as a form of "corporal mortification," but in recent years it has become known as a practice of numeraries (celibate lay people) of Opus Dei, a personal prelature of the Roman Catholic Church. It is worn for two hours a day, and while it causes discomfort, it does not draw blood or even break the skin.[3] Paola Binetti, the conservative Italian senator and member of Opus Dei, is one modern figure known to wear the cilice[1].

 

 

[edit] Etymology

The word is pronounced /ˈsɪlɪs/ SILL-iss, and derives from the Latin cilicium, a covering made of goat's hair from Cilicia, a Roman province in south-east Asia Minor.

 

The Latin word for hairshirt is cilicium, and the reputed first Scriptural use of this exact term, rather than some other earlier term, is in the original Latin Vulgate of Psalm 35:13, "Ego autem, cum mihi molesti essent, induebar cilicio." This is translated as hair-cloth in the Douai Bible, and as sackcloth in the Anglican Authorized Version and the Book of Common Prayer ("But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth." in the King James Bible). Sackcloth is often mentioned in the Bible as a symbol of mourning and penance, and probably was a form of hairshirt. Sackcloth may also mean burlap.

 

 

[edit] References

^ "Then He began to upbraid the cities where most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matthew 11:20-21 RSV)

^ Example image.

^ Opus Dei and Corporal Mortification

 

###The following scripture citations illustrate the difference between regular clothing of the ANE[Ancient Near East] and sackcloth/burlap

 

Genesis 37:33 And he recognized it and said, "It is my son`s tunic. A wild beast has devoured him. Without doubt Joseph is torn to pieces." 34 Then Jacob tore his clothes, put sackcloth on his waist, and mourned for his son many days.

 

1 Kings 21:27 So it was, when Ahab heard those words, that he tore his clothes and put sackcloth on his body, and fasted and lay in sackcloth, and went about mourning.

 

2 Kings 19: 1 And so it was, when King Hezekiah heard it, that he tore his clothes, covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the LORD. 2 Then he sent Eliakim, who was over the household, Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests, covered with sackcloth, to Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz. 3

 

Esther 4:1 When Mordecai learned all that had happened, he tore his clothes and put on sackcloth and ashes, and went out into the midst of the city. He cried out with a loud and bitter cry. 2 He went as far as the front of the king`s gate, for no one might enter the king`s gate clothed with sackcloth. 3 And in every province where the king`s command and decree arrived, there was great mourning among the Jews, with fasting, weeping, and wailing; and many lay in sackcloth and ashes.

 

Jeremiah 4:8 For this, clothe yourself with sackcloth,

Lament and wail.

For the fierce anger of the LORD

Has not turned back from us.

 

***** 9:3 Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes.

 

Jonah 3: 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.

 

Matthew 11:21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes

 

Luke 10:13 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

 

QUOTE(Guestotkroveniya22 #### Feb 28 2008, 05:38 AM)

QUOTE

Don't you think driving down the street dressed like

 

a russian stacking doll draws undue attention?

###No it does not. What draws undue attention are the people you fellowship with who look like clowns and pin cushions with their red mohawks, nose rings and tatoos of cornrows.

 

 

So you're comparing the ridiculosity (I just made it up) of body piercings, mohawks and tatoos to looking like a russian stacking doll

 

I would have to agree

 

They are equally ridiculous

 

The point of the matter still remains that it's a CHOICE and looking one way or another isn't better or worse

###Seeking, if you would wipe and clean the bird droppings from your eyes you would clearly see that I did not state nor compare that wearing Russian outfits is just as ridiculous as red mohawks and tatoos. However, I do understand your silly analogy of wearing Russian outfits to looking like Russian stacking dolls.

 

russian outfits are worn like a "badge of honor" especially to those "ne-nash" as if to say "look at how spiritual and holy i am"

 

Within the "church" it's a comparison of who has more swarovski crystal beads than the next and "ooh, that must have been expensive" comments

 

###Now you claim to have followed women dressed in Russian outfits going to and entering church, standing in the back with the women, and taking notes about their conversations. Tell me Seeking, which old Baboonya were you imitating in the group in the back of church? Just more of your idiotic red herrings on display.

 

###Back to your Ephesians 2:15 quote

 

Ephesians 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace

 

###Note how Paul once again contradicts himself, depending on his ability to be all things to all people. In the process he becomes a Hypocrite. Note the following passages that contradict his previous assertion on display in the above verse:

 

Roman 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

 

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law

 

Romans 7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

 

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

 

Titus 3:9 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

 

Regards, RV22.

 

Sirach[Ecclesiasticus] 12:31 Bring not every man into thy house: for many are the snares of the deceitful.

[seeking_truth_1 0]

I'll begin here seeing as you are now trying to cover your tracks by "adding" to your answer after the fact

 

I also don't like you editing my posts by adding [seeking] to my response to imply the I do not know what endogamy means

 

Does your original response mention marriage?

Or

Mention union between one man and one woman?

or (in your case)

the "spiritual" union of a man with several underage girls just like your "god" rudometikin (Hope you read dhs's "edit" of the originals..it's ALL there)

 

Based upon my original context using endogamy to address the cultural (Not Biblical) choice of marrying only from your socio-ethnic group, NO WHERE do you address marriage in your reply.

 

You go off tangent prattling on about military service

 

This would lead anyone to the conclusion that you DO NOT know what endogamy means

 

If you will remember your original response to my comments on endogamy is as follows

 

 

###Seeking, not only are you a non-Molokan but a false Christian as well because of your willingness to bear arms and support of military service. In essence, you are a non Christian. True Christians do not bear arms. Jesus did not pick up the sword, neither did the Apostles, neither did the Molokans in Russia, and neither do we here in the USA. Endogamy is true Christianity when the issue of military service is at stake. You will have to come up with better reasoning and New Testament scripture to justify military service. Non-Molokans are false Christians and non Christians as long as they are willing to pick up the sword. Your stance resembles the false Christianity that resulted in the Crusades. Same mindset. Paganism in a Christ-like shroud.

 

You don't know what endogamy means

 

You then follow up with this nonsense that you cite from wikipedia but edit the contextual meaning and broaden the "definition"

 

For example

 

Endogamy is the practice of marrying within a social group.[Molokan Christian Pacifists] Cultures who practice endogamy require marriage between specified social groups, classes, or ethnicities.[Russian Spiritual Christians aka Molokans]

 

By you own citing of the content from wikipedia you testify to your willful ignorance of what endogamy means

 

What does the original say?

 

I'll only cite the initial couple of sentences because that's where the definition comes from

 

Endogamy is the practice of marrying within a social group. Cultures who practice endogamy require marriage between specified social groups, classes, or ethnicities.

 

Endogamy refers to the action of marriage within a social group.

 

Endogamy only speaks about the intermarrying within the group and does not place ANY requirement upon what the tenets of that social group are

 

That's all you "adding" to the definition to cover your tracks

 

Here's the entire wikipedia page (in context) so you cannot charge I edited ANYTHING

 

 

You (or anyone else) can clearly see, you are attempting to re-define the meaning of the word to justify your false religious practice by adding "Pacifists" to the mix

 

You also "broaden" your "definition" and CHANGE marriage to "association" so, in your little world, endogamy NOW means "is the practice of only associating within a social group"

 

That IS NOT what endogamy means no matter how hard you try

 

What I find as telling is that you've been caught without understanding in your response regarding endogamy (thinking it had to do with military service and not once mentioning marriage) yet you will not concede the point

 

Instead YOU re-defined the word endogamy to cover up your error

 

Why is that?

 

Is your pride and ego that big you cannot admit you are wrong?

 

Now to address your lack of understanding of what the Bible teaches

 

You say

True Christians do not bear arms. Jesus did not pick up the sword, neither did the Apostles

Haven't you read the following?

 

"35 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you did not have money, a traveler`s bag, or extra clothing, did you lack anything?" "No," they replied.

36 "But now," he said, "take your money and a traveler`s bag. And if you don`t have a sword, sell your clothes and buy one!

37 For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ˜He was counted among those who were rebels.` Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true."

38 "Lord," they replied, "we have two swords among us." "That`s enough," he said." (Luke 22:35-38 NLT)

 

Them who?

 

You don't know your Bible very well, do you?

 

Now who is this referring to in the "new israels favorite" book of the Bible

 

"Their entire army was killed by the sharp sword that came out of the mouth of the one riding the white horse. And all the vultures of the sky gorged themselves on the dead bodies." (Revelation 19:21 NLT)

 

Who is on the white horse?

 

This is where it gets good...

 

All "good" two-book molokans say that it's mgr and Christians say it's Jesus

 

How say you?

 

In EITHER case they engage in battle and there's a killin' and the dead are stacking up like cords of wood

 

If you answer Jesus, you deny your false religion but if you say mgr you are calling mgr "god", denying Biblical Christianity and wilfully ignoring what the Bible states

 

So who is on the White Horse?

 

What does He do?

 

I'll not waste time with your inane answer to that because you'll try and change the meaning of something to get out of giving an honest answer

 

"11 Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. And the one sitting on the horse was named Faithful and True. For he judges fairly and then goes to war.

12 His eyes were bright like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him, and only he knew what it meant.

13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God.

14 The armies of heaven, dressed in pure white linen, followed him on white horses.

15 From his mouth came a sharp sword, and with it he struck down the nations. He ruled them with an iron rod, and he trod the winepress of the fierce wrath of almighty God.

16 On his robe and thigh was written this title: King of kings and Lord of lords." (Revelation 19:11-16 NLT)

 

Who is on the White Horse?

 

The one sitting on the horse was named Faithful and True

He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God

From his mouth came a sharp sword, and with it he struck down the nations

On his robe and thigh was written this title: King of kings and Lord of lords

 

Who is on the White Horse?

Who is the Word?

 

"In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God." (John 1:1 NLT)

 

"So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father." (John 1:14 NLT)

 

Looks like, according to the Bible, your statement

True Christians do not bear arms. Jesus did not pick up the sword, neither did the Apostles

is WRONG

 

You really should someday study the Bible so we can get past all of your false religion baggage and have meaningful discussions instead of dealing with feeding you pre-milk