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Response To Dan Shubin


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#1 anakainosis

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Posted 15 September 2005 - 11:04 AM

I also notice a subtle mis-interpretation of MGR that is consistant with your posts. This passage is to be understood spiritually; is does not deal with the person of MGR, but the Holy Spirit, which will change our bodies to live eternally. The tree of life, and etc, are figurative.---- Dan *****************



Thank you for your comment regarding my consistency. I also notice the consistent answer from all the people who uphold MGR’s writings with saying, “that passage is to be understood spiritually.” I have yet to hear any elder in the Molokan Church explain or illustrate the meaning behind this coined term that is used frequently to answer questions.

Just as Red October and Micah have said, “It’s all a matter of interpretation”. And that’s my interpretation. Now if you are willing and have the patience to show how you exegete the writings of MGR I will gladly read your views and have a civil dialog here with you.

Spiritually, as I understand scripture or the words of Christ, like his kingdom, are to be spiritually understood as not a physical kingdom here on earth. His words to Pilate are meant to be understood as he is a King of a kingdom that is not of this realm (John 18:36). Further proof is that his kingdom has not come with signs to be observed, you can’t see it (Luke 17:20-21). The Kingdom has arrived and come with Christ; it’s been around since his first coming in the flesh. Those who are preaching a physical kingdom are on a fool’s errand because as Christ said, “The Kingdom is in your midst.” Is this what Maxim teaches or did he write he is ushering in the kingdom late in the nineteenth century? Isn’t he a little late in the program?

The passage I made reference to in MGR’s writings is:

“O fortunate are the sons and daughters of God, for whom I, their leader, will personally be the fruit of the tree of life and the taste of the power of longevity for the whole thousand years. And he who eats of Me will live for ages, and the fragrant Spirit of My living apples will everywhere provide them the venerable aroma forever flowing from the tree of life. And each who is failing in body and soul must always accept them personally from My hands for health, with a blessing and anointing, as a sign of the gift during songs in the tunes of new fiery tongues, empowered by the activity of the Spirit of Truth and the Word Alleluia.” MGR Book 1:28:4-6

This how I interpret these passages.

When Maxim writes “For whom I, their leader” I take it simply as he is referring to himself; this is not taken out of context. Why because many other places in your book (Eng. S&L) states he (Maxim) is the leader of the people of Zion and king of spirits (see Pg. 51)

Maxim then says he personally will be the fruit. Not the Spirit.

He continues to say that those who eat of him (figuratively etc.) will live for ages.

Oh, and you MUST accept them personally (not spiritually) from him (MGR’s hands)

All this is to happen while singing songs empowered by the Spirit (The Holy Spirit)


Maxim gives eternal life. I personally believe Jesus Christ gives it (Joh 10:28)


At what point does the I or Me and Leader change to someone other than who is writing it? I feel I’m interpreting as what it plainly says.


Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#2 anakainosis

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Posted 18 September 2005 - 11:49 AM

<Insert the sound of crickets here>

Has Dan ***************** been talked out of giving me a response by his cohorts? The silence is typical of most Molokan Church elders, I’m not surprised.


Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#3 anonymous

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 12:59 AM

Those who knew dhs before his involvement with the s&l translation project, and were privy to his “discoveries” during that project, can attest to dhs' dishonesty in promoting that which dhs himself knew in the initial phases of the project not only to be un-SCRIPTURAL but anti-SCRIPTURAL. In fact, dhs himself was “shocked” upon exposure to the content and context of mgr’s memoirs for this very reason. However, dhs willfully chose to turn the other cheek and eye to the truth of what he learned, and to continue the endeavor.

To assist him in this project, dhs recruited two assistants, whose assigned task was to seek out SCRIPTURAL references in an attempt to “match” mgr’s statements, with specific instructions by dhs to seek out SCRIPTURAL passages containing anything, even one word, which could possibly be construed as “related.” When these two assistants encountered the nature and numerous discrepancies between the content and context of mgr’s statements and THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, they could not, knowing the truths of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, continue in what they both realized was an un-GODly work, and chose to resign from the project.

Sadly, rather than having the courage to disclose what mgr really wrote, and taking a stand for THE TRUTH = JESUS = THE PRINCE OF PEACE, THE ONE in WHOSE NAME dhs claims to be a peacemaker (pacifist), dhs willfully chose to wage war against HIM by covering up and editing to the point of glamorizing, that which is in opposition to HIM WHO IS THE TRUTH = JESUS = THE PRINCE OF PEACE.

It would be nice to think that the reason dhs has chosen to cover up the truth and remain silent regarding mgr’s anti-SCRIPTURAL memoirs was a wise and benevolent gesture for the good of his community as suggested by a s&l proponent in the not-too-distant past, however, to believe this would be to believe a fairy tale because the truth of the matter is, the real reason dhs has chosen to cover up the truth and remain silent regarding mgr’s anti-SCRIPTURAL memoirs is a purely self-ish one --- that of hisinvestment” [i.e., X number of years and effort] in this project.

This also can be attested to by one of the two above assistants, who upon resigning from the project, confronted dhs regarding the anti-SCRIPTURAL nature of mgr’s memoirs, asking dhs whether he would remain involved in this project knowing full well the reality of the situation, to which dhs replied that because of the time and effort he personally invested in this project, he could not and would not give it up.

dhs' denial of what transpired between him and the assistant who confronted him would only serve to affirm dhs' belief in the falsehoods/untruths he continues to solicit.

To those who have known dhs prior to, during, and after the project, it is grievous to witness the fact that through the years he has actually come to believe the very falsehoods/untruths he was shocked upon learning in his youth years ago, when he could blush at indiscretions.

dhs was given the same opportunity his assistants were given --- making the right(eous) choice for THE LORD GOD WHO IS [ABSOLUTE] TRUTH in exposing the falsehoods/untruths of mgr’s memoirs. Unfortunately for him, dhs, unlike the two assistants who chose rightly to abstain from the evil work when they were shown (realized) the falsehoods/untruths, chose instead to exchange GOD’S TRUTH for lies, editing them in an attempt to make them “fit for human consumption.” In doing so, dhs has confirmed THE LORD GOD’S fairness in terms of freeing HIS creatures from bondage to sin in order that they may make a choice for HIM, freely and willingly --- or, not --- and dhs has freely chosen not to make the choice for THE LORD GOD and HIS TRUTH.

If dhs loved and revered ALMIGHTY GOD, JEHOVAH/YHWH and HIS WORD, he would have been diligent in paying attention to the content and context of the entire text from which he randomly selected passages for his patchwork project. However, it appears dhs fears men and reveres himself [and his position] MORE than he does THE LORD GOD, hence, his designation as a pacifist is compatible with his true identity --- coward.

dhs' attempts at marrying THE HOLY SCRIPTURES with UNholy writ, and his condonation and promotion of the perverse outcome, has only earned him the disrespect and pity of those who knew him long before his entanglement in this web of deceit.

Through his solicitation of falsehoods/untruths, dhs, a self-proclaimed “Bible teacher and lay preacher for over 25 years,” has misled those who have and do listen to him, swallowing up the true course of their path.

Because THE LORD GOD is fair/just, dhs can be certain of one thing --- he has and will continue to receive the fair and just “returns” from his “investment.”

We pray for dhs to admit to the error of his ways while it is still “day/light,” and come to know THE WAY of true peace through faithfulness to THE TRUTH WHO IS THE LIFE of peace.......THE GOD OF PEACE HIMSELF.


#4 anakainosis

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 10:40 AM

Interesting information Anonymous, I wonder if Dan will respond to these accusations. I have heard similar comments before from others who heard it first hand.

We know historically from Berokoff that when Maxim’s writings were introduced to the churches early in the twentieth century and they were not welcomed wholeheartedly by all the Churches. The writings demanded changes in Molokan Church procedure from our original ways. Eventually they were accepted and now we are taught as if the writings were around much longer and the way we do things is in the original order. I feel this is deceitful.

I wonder what else has been covered up about our history by the Maximist….

A young respected Molokan Preacher admittedly stated to me that he remembers when he was younger that his father and grandfather used to give historians the run-around and half truths about our history so the world would never know or understand the Molokan people. For this reason he warned me to be careful of what I read about our people due to the misinformation given.

I feel when there are no straight answers to these questions that they the Maximist continue this deceit willingly.

No answer inadvertently promotes this deceit!

Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#5 coffee

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Posted 19 September 2005 - 10:44 AM

Whoa, Anonymous,

This is just my suggestion, but perhaps next time you should not wait so long before you decide to release all of those many years of frustration.

It is just my opinion, but this will probably NOT encourage Danny to end his silence, although the "nice and friendly" approach has not worked in the past either.

coffee

#6 Mitrovitch

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:04 PM

[COLOR=red]--------------------

Did you know? You will go to HELL if you disobey the ten commandments of Maxim? See for yourselves in book 8 article 23.

Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Do you sing praises to Maxim the God of New Israel? See why in book 9 article 15!


Talk about Ad Hominem.


Anyhow, back to responding.
I don't blame DHShubin for not responding to you. You are simply talking nonsense. If you believe that Maxim is saying that he, himself, is God, you are reading the S&L with a really distorted view. That's like saying Jesus is God and God died on the Cross. Well, hello?!?!. You don't read the Prophet Isaiah's writings that way. Why would you read the Prophet Maxim's writings that way?

Jesus died, but Christ lives. Maxim died too. The Spirit of Christ was in Maxim as it is anyone who has been born from above. However, with the types of comments being made here, it sounds like you are still in this ritualistic, ecumenical council thinking that has pervaded so many "Christians" in the world. You're probably on that boat that says that if you just say "Jesus is my Lord and Saviour, who died for my sins" yada yada yada, that you are saved and are reborn again. Don't you know that God is a Spirit and we are to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth? Talking in physical terms about being reborn is a perverted view of Spirituality. We are to interject ourselves into the spiritual realm after purifying ourselves spiritually through meditation, and unless you even take that step, you're lost.

#7 Prophet

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 01:56 PM

You're probably on that boat that says that if you just say "Jesus is my Lord and Saviour, who died for my sins" yada yada yada, that you are saved and are reborn again.


Grace is another term thats used very loosely

#8 anakainosis

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 02:09 PM

“Talk about Ad Hominem.”-Mitrovitch



So, what’s your point? I’m not attacking Maxim, I’m just pointing out what has been written.


“Anyhow, back to responding.
I don't blame DHShubin for not responding to you. You are simply talking nonsense. If you believe that Maxim is saying that he, himself, is God, you are reading the S&L with a really distorted view. That's like saying Jesus is God and God died on the Cross. Well, hello?!?!. You don't read the Prophet Isaiah's writings that way. Why would you read the Prophet Maxim's writings that way?”-Mitrovich



Are you kidding me…. :huh:

Here is one of the MANY places that Maxim makes the claim.

“Therefore I, Maxim, am now called by His new name: King of Spirits and God of the faithful of all the land, for the new Kingdom of peace with Christ for a thousand years.” Book 9:15:7

What am I misinterpreting about this verse??? Do I have a poor translation?

Or have you not read it like most Molokans who are just told what to think?

:no: And Isaiah does not claim to be a god. Its straight forward stuff!

Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#9 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 02:25 PM

<<snip>>
Jesus died, but Christ lives.  Maxim died too.  The Spirit of Christ was in Maxim as it is anyone who has been born from above. 
<<snip>>

What about MGR overtly stating that he shall never physically die?

Red book, page 537 line 4, I shall never die, except every hundred years my body shall be visibly changed over.

Scripture states

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Hebrews 9:27-28 NLT)


Please explain the disparity between these 2 statements and which is ultimately right

(Hint: the answer is the Bible... The Bible)
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#10 Mitrovitch

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 05:00 PM

Here is one of the MANY places that Maxim makes the claim.

“Therefore I, Maxim, am now called by His new name: King of Spirits and God of the faithful of all the land, for the new Kingdom of peace with Christ for a thousand years.” Book 9:15:7

What am I misinterpreting about this verse??? Do I have a poor translation?

Or have you not read it like most Molokans who are just told what to think?

:no: And Isaiah does not claim to be a god. Its straight forward stuff! [/color]

“Talk about Ad Hominem.”-Mitrovitch



So, what’s your point? I’m not attacking Maxim, I’m just pointing out what has been written.


Uh, yeah. Please don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

With regard to the S&L, it appears that you have some trouble with Maxim's writings. Here is a suggestion: try reading the S&L as if Maxim is writing on behalf of the Holy Spirit, just like the prophets of the Old Testament.

I have read it, you have read it like most non-Molokans. What kind of faith do you have? Do you believe that the Spirit of God has descended upon us? Do you believe that God works through individuals and that the word of God is spoken into the hearts of all of us, but some of us simply ignore it?

You want to make Maxim look like he was claiming to be God to the exclusion of Jesus, but a genuine interpretation is that neither is true. God is greater than any one man. While Jesus was on earth, he was a man. Maxim writes that he was born man and at the age of 8 had realized the fallacies of the Orthodox church. You think that you are finding fallacies of the Molokans and are trying to send us back to the Orthodox church. Don't tell me you're not, because the doctrine you are spouting is straight from the harlot's mouth, the ecumenical councils.

There is not one single place that anyone says to pray to or through Maxim. If you want to quote the head notes at the beginning of book 9, try again. Maxim does not receive prayers. He prays for us just like I pray for you and I'm sure your mother prays for you.

Believe it or not, I've read through Maxim's writings and am not an ignoramus as you are inferring. His writings are deep, but completely understandable and completely rational and completely in line with the teachings of Abraham, the Old Testament prophets, and Jesus.

#11 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 06:16 PM

With regard to the S&L, it appears that you have some trouble with Maxim's writings.  Here is a suggestion:  try reading the S&L as if Maxim is writing on behalf of the Holy Spirit, just like the prophets of the Old Testament. 


Question: What do you do when the writings of MGR contadict Scripture (a.k.a. The Bible)?

I have read it, you have read it like most non-Molokans.  What kind of faith do you have?  Do you believe that the Spirit of God has descended upon us?  Do you believe that God works through individuals and that the word of God is spoken into the hearts of all of us, but some of us simply ignore it?


Question: Who is "us"? Mankind? Only molokans? All those who call upon the name of Jesus as Lord and Savior and are indwelt with His Holy Spirit?

You want to make Maxim look like he was claiming to be God to the exclusion of Jesus, but a genuine interpretation is that neither is true.  God is greater than any one man.  While Jesus was on earth, he was a man.  Maxim writes that he was born man and at the age of 8 had realized the fallacies of the Orthodox church.  You think that you are finding fallacies of the Molokans and are trying to send us back to the Orthodox church.  Don't tell me you're not, because the doctrine you are spouting is straight from the harlot's mouth, the ecumenical councils.


Question: See question 1

There is not one single place that anyone says to pray to or through Maxim.  If you want to quote the head notes at the beginning of book 9, try again.  Maxim does not receive prayers.  He prays for us just like I pray for you and I'm sure your mother prays for you.


Question: See question 1

Believe it or not, I've read through Maxim's writings and am not an ignoramus as you are inferring.  His writings are deep, but completely understandable and completely rational and completely in line with the teachings of Abraham, the Old Testament prophets, and Jesus.


Question: See question 1
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#12 Nick Shubin

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 06:38 PM

Here is one of the MANY places that Maxim makes the claim.

“Therefore I, Maxim, am now called by His new name: King of Spirits and God of the faithful of all the land, for the new Kingdom of peace with Christ for a thousand years.” Book 9:15:7

What am I misinterpreting about this verse???  Do I have a poor translation?

Or have you not read it like most Molokans who are just told what to think?

:no: And Isaiah does not claim to be a god. Its straight forward stuff! [/color]

“Talk about Ad Hominem.”-Mitrovitch



So, what’s your point? I’m not attacking Maxim, I’m just pointing out what has been written.


Uh, yeah. Please don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

With regard to the S&L, it appears that you have some trouble with Maxim's writings. Here is a suggestion: try reading the S&L as if Maxim is writing on behalf of the Holy Spirit, just like the prophets of the Old Testament.

I have read it, you have read it like most non-Molokans. What kind of faith do you have? Do you believe that the Spirit of God has descended upon us? Do you believe that God works through individuals and that the word of God is spoken into the hearts of all of us, but some of us simply ignore it?

You want to make Maxim look like he was claiming to be God to the exclusion of Jesus, but a genuine interpretation is that neither is true. God is greater than any one man. While Jesus was on earth, he was a man. Maxim writes that he was born man and at the age of 8 had realized the fallacies of the Orthodox church. You think that you are finding fallacies of the Molokans and are trying to send us back to the Orthodox church. Don't tell me you're not, because the doctrine you are spouting is straight from the harlot's mouth, the ecumenical councils.

There is not one single place that anyone says to pray to or through Maxim. If you want to quote the head notes at the beginning of book 9, try again. Maxim does not receive prayers. He prays for us just like I pray for you and I'm sure your mother prays for you.

Believe it or not, I've read through Maxim's writings and am not an ignoramus as you are inferring. His writings are deep, but completely understandable and completely rational and completely in line with the teachings of Abraham, the Old Testament prophets, and Jesus.


You sir are mistaken! Book 14, article 8, verses 30-33

30 "Likewise, the entreating intercession regarding you, by the spirit in power to the Almighty God-the prayer toGod-will not ever be permitted anyone in any place if bypassing me.

31 For i am the annointed pillar, and i stand eternally upon the rock of zion.

32 And i am the seven storied, heavenly ladder, by only which the songs and prayers of the saints eternally ascend and descend!

33 Also i am the white steed upon earth; i always bear upon myself a rider, the King of kings and the Lord of lords! Yes, this is true, i lie not. amen."

Edited by poopsqually, 10 October 2005 - 06:39 PM.

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:13

#13 Prophet

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 08:16 PM

30 "Likewise, the entreating intercession regarding you, by the spirit in power to the Almighty God-the prayer toGod-will not ever be permitted anyone in any place if bypassing me.

31 For i am the annointed pillar, and i stand eternally upon the rock of zion.

32 And i am the seven storied, heavenly ladder, by only which the songs and prayers of the saints eternally ascend and descend!

33 Also i am the white steed upon earth; i always bear upon myself a rider, the King of kings and the Lord of lords! Yes, this is true, i lie not. amen."


This is refering to the Holy Spirit.

#14 Nick Shubin

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 09:22 PM

30 "Likewise, the entreating intercession regarding you, by the spirit in power to the Almighty God-the prayer toGod-will not ever be permitted anyone in any place if bypassing me.

31 For i am the annointed pillar, and i stand eternally upon the rock of zion.

32 And i am the seven storied, heavenly ladder, by only which the songs and prayers of the saints eternally ascend and descend!

33 Also i am the white steed upon earth; i always bear upon myself a rider, the King of kings and the Lord of lords! Yes, this is true, i lie not. amen."


This is refering to the Holy Spirit.

Prophet, that seems to be the standard answer given when you have no other explanation for those writings.
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:13

#15 anakainosis

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 11:04 PM

“With regard to the S&L, it appears that you have some trouble with Maxim's writings. Here is a suggestion: try reading the S&L as if Maxim is writing on behalf of the Holy Spirit, just like the prophets of the Old Testament.”-Mitrovich



Okay, I’ll try that.



“I have read it, you have read it like most non-Molokans. What kind of faith do you have? Do you believe that the Spirit of God has descended upon us? Do you believe that God works through individuals and that the word of God is spoken into the hearts of all of us, but some of us simply ignore it?”-Mitrovich



I have a faith in Jesus Christ. I feel there is a portion of Molokans that get it, but for the most part no, very few have received the Spirit unto salvation through faith in Christ. Yes I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit that are given to true believers for the benefit of the true Church in Christ. I think most Molokans are confused as to what true work is of the Holy Spirit; that is every time someone comes out, it’s the true spirit. But there never tested, it’s just assumed that God is working and never possibly the flesh.





“You want to make Maxim look like he was claiming to be God to the exclusion of Jesus, but a genuine interpretation is that neither is true. God is greater than any one man. While Jesus was on earth, he was a man. Maxim writes that he was born man and at the age of 8 had realized the fallacies of the Orthodox church. You think that you are finding fallacies of the Molokans and are trying to send us back to the Orthodox church. Don't tell me you're not, because the doctrine you are spouting is straight from the harlot's mouth, the ecumenical councils.”-Mitrovich



Not necessarily, from my study of his writings is that he does not make himself out to be bigger and better than God the Father, but that God the Holy Spirit, third feature is personified through Maxim. Even though Max is just a man, he claims that the Spirit in him is God. He takes that further and simply calls himself the king of the seven spirits of God, or King of Spirits. So he claims to be God, it was a title given to him by Jesus, so he writes.

Now, I’m sorry, but this arrogance has never been portrayed through any scriptural prophet of God. Only Jesus Christ has said he was equal to God. What God was, the Word was (John 1:1)

I’m not trying to send you back to Orthodoxy; I’m trying to wake people up! Be sure that you are worshipping in the true spirit by testing what you see and hear by searching the scriptures daily!

People assume they are taught truth from birth in the Molokan Church. I feel sorry for them!





“There is not one single place that anyone says to pray to or through Maxim. If you want to quote the head notes at the beginning of book 9, try again. Maxim does not receive prayers. He prays for us just like I pray for you and I'm sure your mother prays for you.”-Mitrovich



“Likewise, the entreating intercession regarding you, by the Spirit in power to the Almighty God--the prayer to God--will not ever be permitted anyone in any place if
bypassing Me. For I am the anointed pillar, and I stand eternally upon the rock of Zion.” -Maxim Pg. 603


Who is this anointed pillar???

“As it is deprived of the true shepherd Jesus Christ, the Son of David, and myself, His anointed in the Spirit of truth, Ulesar, a pillar of Mount Zion. Amen, amen!”-Maxim Pg. 496

Who is Ulesar???

“THE writer of this new revelation is a man, by birth a resident of this world, whose name is Ulesar, K.U.N.J.M.; or in Russian: An Angel clothed in the flesh by the Spirit.”-Maxim Pg. 415 or Pg. 526

So the man who wrote this, who is Maxim, his name is Ulesar. Now Ulesar is the anointed pillar in Zion, and no prayer reaches God if it is bypassed this pillar, which is called Ulesar, or simply known as Maxim.

I’m trying to make it say what you want it to say Mitrovich but that would require I deny the laws of grammar and syntax, and that would render all the writings useless, because I would be able to make it say what ever I wanted. What good would that be….





“Believe it or not, I've read through Maxim's writings and am not an ignoramus as you are inferring. His writings are deep, but completely understandable and completely rational and completely in line with the teachings of Abraham, the Old Testament prophets, and Jesus.”-Mitrovich



Obviously, I read too. If his writings are so deep but yet rational why does it say something else other than you claim. Please enlighten me.
:)
Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#16 RedOctober

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 08:12 AM

Ok...I took a look at this last nite....good grief. I noticed a few things:

1. Whats in contention and being quoted is three verses.....thats out of an Article that's 3 Pages! Already, its being taken out of context. Splicing something that long and putting a spin on it is mis-leading.

2. Does anyone ever bother looking at the headers? It says "A Song".....that should be a clue. Its a praise...as in not a prophecy or testament, etc....but a praise....which leads me to number..

3. When I read through it (late at night), I noticed the song revolved around Old Israel's disobedance to God, the disobediance that is yet to come when the the final Two Witnesses appear, etc. One can make the case that this is refering to God....or to Christ.....or to the Holy Spirit......

...but the most plausible scenario.....All Three. Its a SONG....and MGR is incorporating refernces to God, Christ and the Holy Spirit concering mans disobediance and Grace from Christ. Versus 31-32 is about Christ, verse 33 is about the Holy Spirit.

4. Or...you can just say its MGR singing about himself as you are suggesting Anakain. But I don't ascribe to that interpretation. If you feel MGR is, then you rejected his writings and are only looking for fault rather than an actual explanation.

Apparently MGR needed to make notes on those tea bags with soot he was using as ink which he was forbidden to do in the first place. Not everyone is capable to tell the difference when he was refering to God, Christ or the Holy Spirit. I guess he presumed too much in thinking people would be more devout to God.

Part 2:

I think most Molokans are confused as to what true work is of the Holy Spirit; that is every time someone comes out, it’s the true spirit. But there never tested, it’s just assumed that God is working and never possibly the flesh.


Believe it or not, I agree with you on this point. Our Molokan people have had one too many black eyes due to this.

Even though Max is just a man, he claims that the Spirit in him is God. He takes that further and simply calls himself the king of the seven spirits of God, or King of Spirits. So he claims to be God, it was a title given to him by Jesus, so he writes.


No, he claims it is from God. King of Spirits does not equate to God and does not mean God. Your making the title "King of Spirits" out to be much larger with more authority than it is. God = God of Gods (above all other Gods....FYI, Rulers such as the Tsar, often demanded to be revered like Gods, your using God in the extreme sense while MGR is not). Christ = King of Kings (above all other Kings....spiritual and physical). King of Spirits is subordinate to King of Kings....but I guess it really depends if you belive we are all Kings and Priests. If you do, then this isn't arrogance. But if you don't....then perhaps MGR should have said, Knight or General or some other subordinate of a King.

Now its my turn to ask a question. Anakain....Do you believe you understand EVERYTHING thats written in the Bible?

If yes, do you feel you have learned all you can?

If no, do you look for fault with what you dont understand?

#17 anakainosis

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:03 AM

Good Grief…..

hey, that’s what I said when I read your response!

I find it funny that when pro S&L people interpret there own holy scripture they play the “nut n’ shell” game. Guess where the peanut is!

Obviously there is no written commentary that is universal in the sense that it establishes the correct interpretation for the jumpers. Everybody has their “Spin” on it.

Here’s the spin or definitions given in context given from the maximist group:

Me: could mean Maxim, Holy Spirit, God (Father) or Christ!

I: could mean Maxim, Holy Spirit, God (Father) or Christ!

Ulesar: could mean Maxim, Holy Spirit, God (Father) or Christ!

King of Spirits: could mean Maxim, Holy Spirit, God (Father) or Christ!

God: could mean Maxim (a ruler), Holy Spirit, God (Father) or Christ!



At any moment you could also play the “Flip Flop” game and change intentions within the context. Is this how you interpret the news paper or any other piece of literature.

I believe that the people who are trained or psychologically conditioned from birth to simply accept that the book is divinely inspired truth. Like Pavlov’s dog salivating at the ring of the bell the Molokans are indoctrinated with what the elders claim what the truth is and they read their Bibles and interpret them through the out of focus glasses of Maxim’s teaching.


Regarding your interpretation of Maxim calling himself God; you say he means he is “a god, tsar or ruler”. You feel that is what’s really implied. This is called the “Flip Flop” game because now you’re saying it is something else when in fact is refuted by the very book you uphold.

“Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading.” Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

So when Maxim claims that he is God, he is God! That’s a title that he has been given through Christ and the Father, so he claims.

“Therefore I, Maxim, am now called by His new name: King of Spirits and God of the faithful of all the land, for the new Kingdom of peace with Christ for a thousand years.” Book 9:15:7

Clearly if I follow the hermeneutic of Dan’s version, the term in the text is clearly capitalized which means it is a reference to Deity. There is no “a” as “a god” or ruler here. So far I feel I am interpreting it clearly within the confines of the rules of interpretation stated in your book!







Now its my turn to ask a question. Anakain....Do you believe you understand EVERYTHING thats written in the Bible?

If yes, do you feel you have learned all you can?

If no, do you look for fault with what you dont understand?-redock


No I do not understand everything in the Bible.

Also I feel there is my lifetime to learn more.

I am constantly going back to scripture to check to see if my view is according to scripture. I use scripture to interpret scripture. Unclear passages are made more understandable when interpreted in light of the clear passages.

And believe it or not, I will plainly say I do not understand that passage if I truly don’t.

Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#18 fourvetta

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:28 AM

To the non-believer, the word of God is a stumbling block. To the believer, it is a cornerstone or a precious stone upon which he builds his house.

It is set up that way by God Himself.

Isaiah

28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken


#19 RedOctober

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:33 AM

I find it funny that when pro S&L people interpret there own holy scripture they play the “nut n’ shell” game. Guess where the peanut is!


And your not doing the same?!

Obviously there is no written commentary that is universal in the sense that it establishes the correct interpretation for the jumpers. Everybody has their “Spin” on it.


Precisely. Guess what, its the same for the Bible (which has been around for a lot longer than the S&L). Unless of course you follow man-made Emperor Constatine enforced doctrine blindly. And all denominational "official views" thereafter. Let me ask you this, does it bother you that there are a variance of viewpoints?

At any moment you could also play the “Flip Flop” game and change intentions within the context. Is this how you interpret the news paper or any other piece of literature.


No, but you did. The header said "A Song", not "A Testament" or "A prophesy" or anything of the like. But "A Song" meaning its going to have metaphors and allegorical references. But right back at you, do you strictly interpret the Bible? If so, shouldn't you have hands chopped off or something?

I believe that the people who are trained or psychologically conditioned from birth to simply accept that the book is divinely inspired truth. Like Pavlov’s dog salivating at the ring of the bell the Molokans are indoctrinated with what the elders claim what the truth is and they read their Bibles and interpret them through the out of focus glasses of Maxim’s teaching.


What a ludicrous statement...I've heard it before...from Athiest when they comment on the Bible.

So when Maxim claims that he is God, he is God! That’s a title that he has been given through Christ and the Father, so he claims.


Well its too bad you see it that way. Seems to me you had your mind made up. Let me think about the plausibility of this. He thinks he's God, so he could have walked out of prison at anytime he wanted (and he did want out from what I gather reading). So nope, don't think so.

Now, lets add to this...the villagers get a letter with MGR calling himself God...so they must have erected churchs, started praying to him, etc. Oh wait, they didn't...but they still revered him as a prophet. Hence, they did not see it as him calling himself God THE FATHER (theres a clue for you).

Ok..nuff of this for now. I can only pray for you Anakain and hope you see, you have become what you are critisizing.

#20 Mitrovitch

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 01:26 PM

Anakainosis

We are all created in the image of God, which is a spiritual self. For those who adopt the Almighty, they become sons of God. We each can be a son of God. Maxim speaks as a son of God and you fault him for it. Why? Would you fault me for speaking as a son of God? Do you not know what my Father has told you? Do you not hear the voice of my Father speaking to you?

Do you pray to God? Or do you pray to my brother, Jesus? Or do you just say words and hope they get to the right place?

Be careful of the direction which you lead our people. Going against the S&L is going against the Holy Spirit. If you really want to help people, teach them about how to listen to the Holy Spirit.

In response to your questions, when I (notice that I said “I”) think that there is something contradictory with the S&L and the Bible, I look at it again to see if there is a way that the verse can be rationally understood differently. I have been able to interpret both books to where they make sense rationally and it is interesting when I have found that the proper interpretation was different than what I had first thought. You also must pray about it and listen to what the Holy Spirit says.

When I asked “Do you believe that the Spirit of God has descended upon us?”, I am referring to True Worshiper. Just because you go under the name or the banner of a particular religion does not mean that you are a True Worshiper. There are True Worshipers who are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, and others. The True Worshiping is what Maxim was trying to convey to us. It is what Jesus was trying to convey to us. It was what Adam, Noah, and Abraham were trying to convey to us. Just because you claim to be a Christian or a Molokan or a whatever does not make you a True Worshiper.

Maxim was not arrogant. He explained a way to contact the Holy Spirit, that it is within each of us and that the pillar within us is the Holy Spirit. The pillar is the beam of energy and of Spirit which shoots directly through to the Spiritual realm and to God himself. The pillar within us is the intercessor, the doorway to God. It is the same one that Jesus described when he said none get to the Father except through me. It is the same pillar that has been around throughout history, the doorway to God. Maxim only describes it a little differently. That same pillar is within us after we have been born from on high.

The thing you need to do is to step outside of your mold, your world view and view of God and take a different approach, one which is not guided by Christian doctrine as commanded by the ecumenical councils, and to listen to the voice from heaven that speaks quietly within, and listen to that Word. That is the Word of God. The books in the Bible and S&L are demonstrations of how the Word of God came to Moses and the Prophets and the Apostles and so forth, so that you can recognize it when it comes to you.

#21 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 02:10 PM

When I asked “Do you believe that the Spirit of God has descended upon us?”, I am referring to True Worshiper.  Just because you go under the name or the banner of a particular religion does not mean that you are a True Worshiper.  There are True Worshipers who are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, and others.  The True Worshiping is what Maxim was trying to convey to us.

Did he just say what I thought he said

Let's look at that again in light of Scripture

4 And you know where I am going and how to get there."
5 "No, we don’t know, Lord," Thomas said. "We haven’t any idea where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
7 If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is. From now on you know him and have seen him!" (John 14:4-7 NLT)


Your assertion that there are "true worshippers" who are Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, and others is patently false if you believe the Bible

For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24 NLT)

If the Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, and others reject Christ as Lord and Savior then they ARE NOT true worshippers of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1 NLT)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NLT)


To recap
Jesus is God in physical form
He is full of Grace & Truth
He was there in the beginning
He must be worshipped in Spirit & Truth
There is no way to God other than through Jesus

By the way, if you are claiming that mgr is the way to true worship, then all of those other groups can't be true worshippers if they don't become molokan & accept mgr

So the ONLY true worshippers are the molokans?
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#22 ligonier

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 02:26 PM

Do you pray to God? Or do you pray to my brother, Jesus?

Be careful of the direction which you lead our people. Going against the S&L is going against the Holy Spirit. If you really want to help people, teach them about how to listen to the Holy Spirit.

I have been able to interpret both books to where they make sense rationally and it is interesting when I have found that the proper interpretation was different than what I had first thought. You also must pray about it and listen to what the Holy Spirit says.

When I asked “Do you believe that the Spirit of God has descended upon us?”, I am referring to True Worshiper. Just because you go under the name or the banner of a particular religion does not mean that you are a True Worshiper. There are True Worshipers who are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, and others. The True Worshiping is what Maxim was trying to convey to us. It is what Jesus was trying to convey to us. It was what Adam, Noah, and Abraham were trying to convey to us. Just because you claim to be a Christian or a Molokan or a whatever does not make you a True Worshiper.

Maxim was not arrogant. He explained a way to contact the Holy Spirit, that it is within each of us and that the pillar within us is the Holy Spirit. The pillar is the beam of energy and of Spirit which shoots directly through to the Spiritual realm and to God himself. The pillar within us is the intercessor, the doorway to God. It is the same one that Jesus described when he said none get to the Father except through me. It is the same pillar that has been around throughout history, the doorway to God. Maxim only describes it a little differently.

The thing you need to do is to step outside of your mold, your world view and view of God and take a different approach, one which is not guided by Christian doctrine as commanded by the ecumenical councils, and to listen to the voice from heaven that speaks quietly within, and listen to that Word. That is the Word of God.

I believe this is a first. A New-Age Maximist. Meditate on it. How do you feel about it. Let the feeling wash over and through you. Become a channel for the spirit. Take a step outside yourself. You can make the interpretation what you want it to be. All religions point to God. Jesus is my brother.

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!??!?!?!? :no:

This is a branch of the molokan religion that is new to me. I will try to avoid it.
"Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorant words?... Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. Do you know how its dimensions were determined and who did the surveying? What supports its foundations, and who laid its cornerstone as the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" (Job 38:2)

"Then the LORD said... Do you still want to argue with the Almighty? You are God's critic, but do you have the answers?" (Job 40:2)

Therefore I melt away; I repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:6)]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better to die awake.............................Than to live asleep. (read Mark 13:33-37)

#23 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 02:36 PM

I believe this is a first. A New-Age Maximist. Meditate on it. How do you feel about it. Let the feeling wash over and through you. Become a channel for the spirit. Take a step outside yourself. You can make the interpretation what you want it to be. All religions point to God. Jesus is my brother.

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!??!?!?!? :no:

This is a branch of the molokan religion that is new to me. I will try to avoid it.

Maybe we can build chi cube bridges from crystals made from rock candy

(Trying not to laugh out loud and hurt myself)
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#24 Prophet

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 03:08 PM

I believe this is a first. A New-Age Maximist. Meditate on it. How do you feel about it.  Become a channel for the spirit. Take a step outside yourself. You can make the interpretation what you want it to be. All religions point to God. Jesus is my brother

.


There is nothing wrong with what Mitrovitch wrote, its how you interpret it.

#25 Mitrovitch

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 05:01 PM

Sticks and Stones. Sticks and Stones.

You think that you have it all figured out and that you have God defined how you want and that you have God in this little box and as long as He stays there, you are comfortable with yourself and with your “faith”. The problem is that God is much larger than you can conceive, but to understand Him is to understand the Spirit. To define God with your verses and chapters is belittling to the Almighty. Scriptures are good for understanding how to listen to the real Word of God, that little voice inside of those who have been born from on high. That is the same voice that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jesus, and Maxim had in them.

Seeking Truth quotes John quoting Jesus, who says that Jesus said that "No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is. From now on you know him and have seen him!" What precedes this is “If” you had know him. In order to know God, you have to know and understand what it means to be born from on high, which is interjecting yourself into the spiritual realm. It is then you can see what Jesus was talking about. Maxim saw it. Abraham saw it. Lots of people have seen what Jesus was talking about. I believe that there are people who are called Jews who have seen it. Paul was one of them. I believe that there are people who are called Muslims and people from other walks of life. Maxim writes that our God is the God of Adam and Noah and Abraham and of the Ishmaelites and of the Jews. Each of those individuals represents different groups of believers on this planet.

When the Word of God dwells within man, that is the Word of God being made flesh. There is no doubt that the Word was made flesh in Jesus, but that is not the only time. It was elsewhere and at many different times throughout history.

Then you want to say that Jesus was from the beginning. How was it that he was born 2000 years ago if he was from the beginning. The first creation was enlightenment, as it says, God created light. That light is the inspiration which drives those inspired by God. God gave us thought and self-awareness and blossomed our minds. That is the same light that is talked about in John 1, as it says that it was the light of men.

I’m not saying there is another way. I’m saying your interpretation of the way is skewed. MGR is our leader to Zion. Other groups have their leaders, going to the same place. If you don’t want to follow him to the mountain, then pave your own way or find someone else to follow. Christ is already on the Mountain and God is in heaven.

And Ligionier, if you want to knock meditation, Jesus meditated in Gethsemane. David the Beloved meditated all of the time: Psalms 1:2; 63:6; 77:12; 119:15, 23, 48, 78, 148; Isaac meditated and there came his wife Genesis 24:63; See also Timothy 4:15.

What I wrote about the Spirit was how Jumpers and Leapers believe, that the Holy Spirit fills individuals and gives us messages. It fills us and we rejoice like they did on the day of Pentacost. If you are a postoyani Molokan, have at it, but don’t us for what we believe and don’t try to change us to postoyani.

#26 anakainosis

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 06:37 PM

“Be careful of the direction which you lead our people. Going against the S&L is going against the Holy Spirit. If you really want to help people, teach them about how to listen to the Holy Spirit.”-Mitrovich



The Holy Spirit guides me in and by the Bible. The Bible is THE standard to compare all doctrine and ideas to. If any idea or belief doesn’t agree with the whole council of scripture its garbage and not of the True Holy Spirit.
You and others start with the S&L then use the Bible to prove the validity of your holy scripture or you consider them equal. But for the most part your righteousness is taught from Maxim.

Thanks for the warning! But I feel fully secure with my hope in the work of Christ and the message of the apostles that has been delivered through the scriptures.

JUDE 3 _vti_cnf


I’m content with the clarity being on this side of the fence, I was where you are at now and I know how stifling it is; why should I go back?

Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#27 dhshubin

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 07:40 PM

anakainosis quoted the following:

"Therefore I, Maxim, am now called by His new name: King of Spirits and God of the faithful of all the land, for the new Kingdom of peace with Christ for a thousand years.” Book 9:15:7


All of MGR's statements have a Scriptural connection, whether or not anybody, including anakainosis, is willing to attribute the fulfillment to MGR.

Rev 3:12: He who conquers.... And I will write on him .... my new name.

Read this verse very carefully anakainosis. Jesus is bestowing upon the person who conquers over sin and temptation (I Cor 15:57) several names, and including His new name. What does this mean? It means that the new name that Jesus possesses, which is defined in Phil 2:9, which God gave to Jesus, that Jesus will give this same name to that person who conquers sin and temptation. Since MGR gained the victory through Jesus, per I Cor 15:57, the promise of receiving the new name that Jesus possesses is fulfilled in MGR.

The shallow and diluted mind of the baby-bottle fed Christian will not be able to fathom such a concept. But it is plainly Scriptural: just read Rev 3:12 !!!

So the issue is anakainosis ascending from the baby-bottle fed diluted ecumenical Christendom and into the celestial depths of the fathomless spiritual concepts of the Spirit and Life.

This is just one concept explained; but as long as anakainosis has a chip on his shoulder, and refuses to allow MGR the fulfillment of such passages as Rev 3:12, and also Rev 3:21 and 12:5, it is useless to pursue exegises of any other passages.

If anakainosis cannot accept fundamental Scriptural tenets of the Molokan community - such as food laws, objection to military service and war, and marraige within the faith - how can you accept concepts for the spiritually mature. Read John 3:12, this is you anakainosis !!!

#28 Nick Shubin

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 08:06 PM

What I wrote about the Spirit was how Jumpers and Leapers believe, that the Holy Spirit fills individuals and gives us messages. It fills us and we rejoice like they did on the day of Pentacost. If you are a postoyani Molokan, have at it, but don’t us for what we believe and don’t try to change us to postoyani.

What you are quoting is what maximisti/new israel believe. In case you didn't know, there were/are jumpers that did/do not accept mgr and his new mystycal beliefs.
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:13

#29 fourvetta

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 08:42 PM

What you are quoting is what maximisti/new israel believe. In case you didn't know, there were/are jumpers that did/do not accept mgr and his new mystycal beliefs.


Thats what I meant. The Molokans now have a group called "Postanyani Priguni."

Who do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ personified as a Prophet.

They are better called, "Teroshka."

If anakainosis cannot accept fundamental Scriptural tenets of the Molokan community - such as food laws, objection to military service and war, and marraige within the faith - how can you accept concepts for the spiritually mature. Read John 3:12, this is you anakainosis !!!


Christ said, "If I spoke to you of earthly things, how can you understand the heavenly things."

#30 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 09:32 PM

To address this point by point

Sticks and Stones.  Sticks and Stones.

Whatever..Did you come to discuss this, or do you need a snack & a nap?

To continue...

You think that you have it all figured out and that you have God defined how you want and that you have God in this little box and as long as He stays there, you are comfortable with yourself and with your “faith”.  The problem is that God is much larger than you can conceive, but to understand Him is to understand the Spirit.  To define God with your verses and chapters is belittling to the Almighty.  Scriptures are good for understanding how to listen to the real Word of God, that little voice inside of those who have been born from on high.  That is the same voice that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jesus, and Maxim had in them.


You are attempting to hyper-spiritualize something that frankly doesn't need it...

Most maximisti will make these assertions to try and place some distance between themselves who are of "higher understanding" as compared to just plain ol' simple folk

The fallacity of this is pointed out in Scripture

As your words are taught, they give light; even the simple can understand them. (Psalm 119:130 NLT)

No big spiritual mystery or need for some "enlightened one" to guide us on our journey. Especially when the "enlightened one" is preaching a different gospel

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-9 NLT)



Seeking Truth quotes John quoting Jesus, who says that Jesus said that "No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is. From now on you know him and have seen him!"  What precedes this is “If” you had know him.  In order to know God, you have to know and understand what it means to be born from on high, which is interjecting yourself into the spiritual realm.  It is then you can see what Jesus was talking about.  Maxim saw it.  Abraham saw it.  Lots of people have seen what Jesus was talking about.  I believe that there are people who are called Jews who have seen it.  Paul was one of them.  I believe that there are people who are called Muslims and people from other walks of life.  Maxim writes that our God is the God of Adam and Noah and Abraham and of the Ishmaelites and of the Jews.  Each of those individuals represents different groups of believers on this planet.


The Bible state that God the God of Abraham is the God of all. Not all people will acknowledge that. As to mgr writing that, so what... It was written nearly 2000 years prior in the Book of Acts.

12 Peter saw his opportunity and addressed the crowd. "People of Israel," he said, "what is so astounding about this? And why look at us as though we had made this man walk by our own power and godliness?
13 For it is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of all our ancestors who has brought glory to his servant Jesus by doing this. This is the same Jesus whom you handed over and rejected before Pilate, despite Pilate’s decision to release him. (Acts 3:12-13 NLT)


When the Word of God dwells within man, that is the Word of God being made flesh.  There is no doubt that the Word was made flesh in Jesus, but that is not the only time.  It was elsewhere and at many different times throughout history.

Then you want to say that Jesus was from the beginning.  How was it that he was born 2000 years ago if he was from the beginning.  The first creation was enlightenment, as it says, God created light.  That light is the inspiration which drives those inspired by God.  God gave us thought and self-awareness and blossomed our minds.  That is the same light that is talked about in John 1, as it says that it was the light of men. 


What part of this is confusing to you?

If you agree the Jesus is the Word why do you have a problem with the following...

1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1-2 NLT)


The Word (Jesus) already exisited in the beginning. This means that He (Jesus) is eternal

No big mystery here...

I’m not saying there is another way.  I’m saying your interpretation of the way is skewed.  MGR is our leader to Zion.  Other groups have their leaders, going to the same place.  If you don’t want to follow him to the mountain, then pave your own way or find someone else to follow.  Christ is already on the Mountain and God is in heaven. 


In the Bible Jesus says He is the way
In your book you say mgr is the way

You say that mgr is you point of connection between man and God

The Bible doesn;t line up with YOUR theology

For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus. (1Timothy 2:5 NLT)

It's a simple matter of who are you going to believe

Choose whom you will serve this day

As for me and my house will serve the Lord (not mgr)
<<snip>>
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#31 Mitrovitch

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:51 PM

Seeking Truth

Your skewed interpretation of the Bible and the S&L has created a chasm which you think has a difference in belief and faith. I am not hyper-spiritualizing anything. My understanding of scripture makes it very simple to follow and allows ignorant, uneducated people who have not read the Bible to be able to reach God. It does not take a rocket scientist, only a patient person who listens to the Holy Spirit.
There is only one gospel, which if you look at the etymology of gospel, it is a derivative of God’s Spell, which is a derivative of God Speak, which is essentially the Word of God. The Word of God is the quiet voice inside that anyone, even illiterate people, can understand. You simply want to cause division by stating that Maxim is speaking of a different Word of God (i.e. gospel).
My goal is not to cause division, but to show that it is all the same Word of God. Maxim never says to pray to him or through him. He quotes the Bible all over the place. I’m not exactly following where Maxim talks about any other gospel. If you think that he does, maybe you can enlighten me.

As for the light and the Word coming into flesh, why do you leave that to be exclusively with Jesus? I don’t have a problem with that being in Jesus. I believe he wasn’t the only one, that it is for all of us to be striving for. We are each eternal if we believe that the light and the word can dwell within us. If you don’t believe that the light and the word dwells within us, then you can’t believe in everlasting life.

Then you said “ In the Bible Jesus says He is the way In your book you say mgr is the way.” Where are you getting this alleged dichotomy from? The Spirit of Christ is the path to the Father, which dwells within us. Where do you find anything even remotely indicating that Maxim says anything other than Christ is the way? Then you attributed to me “You say that mgr is you point of connection between man and God” which I do not ever recall stating that. If you read back in the posts, I said that Maxim is a leader. So is Matvei Simeonich and Efim Gerasimich. We have a long list of forefathers who have led us out of the dark ages of Orthodoxy and belief that God died on the cross (by the way, if God died, who resurrected Him?).

There is not an either/or of who I am going to believe. It is like asking, who are you going to believe, Matthew or John. They are saying the same message, just a little differently. I’m surprised that you don’t find that there are problems with the gospels because they don’t all say the same exact stories, word for word. You can even say that there are differences with the Old Testament and the New Testament, but I comfortably am able to find the Word in all of it and mesh them into one continuous message.

#32 Nick Shubin

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 05:23 AM

Mitrovich, what it all boils down to at least for me is Apostle Pauls instruction found in II Corinthians chapter 11



11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in [my] folly: and indeed bear with me.

11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

11:6 But though [I be] rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

11:7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?

11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages [of them], to do you service.

11:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all [things] I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and [so] will I keep [myself].

11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.

11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.

11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Edited by poopsqually, 12 October 2005 - 05:23 AM.

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:13

#33 anakainosis

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 08:48 AM

“The shallow and diluted mind of the baby-bottle fed Christian will not be able to fathom such a concept.”-Dan *****************


“So the issue is anakainosis ascending from the baby-bottle fed diluted ecumenical Christendom and into the celestial depths of the fathomless spiritual concepts of the Spirit and Life.”-Dan *****************


These rants are full of the same bitterness in the writings of Maxim. :(

Is this the FRUIT of this teaching?

Soo, anyways as Dan ***************** was saying Maxim is now called GOD. :lol:

I guess we can agree on that.



I am also assuming that the passages written in Revelation pertain only to Maxim if I understand Dan’s response correctly. I find that hard to believe and it’s not important. :crazy:

Christ didn’t come and say, believe in me, oh and you better believe in Maxim’s new name or else!

Maxim is still irrelevant for salvation according to scripture.

Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#34 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 09:13 AM

Seeking Truth

Your skewed interpretation of the Bible and the S&L has created a chasm which you think has a difference in belief and faith.  I am not hyper-spiritualizing anything.  My understanding of scripture makes it very simple to follow and allows ignorant, uneducated people who have not read the Bible to be able to reach God.  It does not take a rocket scientist, only a patient person who listens to the Holy Spirit.


Your statement that my doctrine is skewed coupled with a conspicuous lack of anything other than your opinion does not work to your advantage

Please cite something to bolster your position sans personal attack and innuendo.


There is only one gospel, which if you look at the etymology of gospel, it is a derivative of God’s Spell, which is a derivative of God Speak, which is essentially the Word of God.  The Word of God is the quiet voice inside that anyone, even illiterate people, can understand.  You simply want to cause division by stating that Maxim is speaking of a different Word of God (i.e.
gospel).


Again you demonstrate a lack of Biblical understanding. Gospel is not derived from "God's Spell". If you would take the time, you would find the word (in the Greek) is euaggelizo which means Good News or Tidings.

The meaning doesn't change chapter to chapter (hermeneutically speaking) or subjectively based upon personal bias. In the context of scripture, Gospel speaks about the Good News of Jesus. That He came as a fulfillment of God promise to all mankind of a Savior.

You state that there is "only one" gospel to which I agree, however, you are indicating through your posts there are a multiplicity of ways to God without absolutes. Jews, Muslims, molokans etc... all have their own way to God

Scripture is clear that your position is a lie

12 "Do for others what you would like them to do for you. This is a summary of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.
13 "You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way.
14 But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it. (Matthew 7:12-14 NLT)


There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. (Proverbs 16:25 NLT)

My goal is not to cause division, but to show that it is all the same Word of God.  Maxim never says to pray to him or through him.  He quotes the Bible all over the place.  I’m not exactly following where Maxim talks about any other gospel.  If you think that he does, maybe you can enlighten me. 


Mgr's different way has already been established in numerous other posts. I'll provide passages again if necessary.

As for the light and the Word coming into flesh, why do you leave that to be exclusively with Jesus?  I don’t have a problem with that being in Jesus.  I believe he wasn’t the only one, that it is for all of us to be striving for.  We are each eternal if we believe that the light and the word can dwell within us.  If you don’t believe that the light and the word dwells within us, then you can’t believe in everlasting life.


You are now overtly stating that Jesus IS NOT the only way by stating “I believe he (Jesus) wasn’t the only one, that it is for all of us to be striving for.”

Your statement is in the spirit of Anti-Christ.

Scripture is clear on this also

See John 14:6 again

Then you said “ In the Bible Jesus says He is the way In your book you say mgr is the way.”  Where are you getting this alleged dichotomy from?  The Spirit of Christ is the path to the Father, which dwells within us.  Where do you find anything even remotely indicating that Maxim says anything other than Christ is the way?  Then you attributed to me “You say that mgr is you point of connection between man and God” which I do not ever recall stating that.  If you read back in the posts, I said that Maxim is a leader.  So is Matvei Simeonich and Efim Gerasimich.  We have a long list of forefathers who have led us out of the dark ages of Orthodoxy and belief that God died on the cross (by the way, if God died, who resurrected Him?). 


Your reason is muttled in contradiction. You overtly state that there are multiple paths to God, one of which is mgr. Mgr is that point of connection between you and God on par or superior to Chirst. As to who resurrected Jesus, Scripture is clear

17 "The Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may have it back again.
18 No one can take my life from me. I lay down my life voluntarily. For I have the right to lay it down when I want to and also the power to take it again. For my Father has given me this command." (John 10:17-18 NLT)


There is not an either/or of who I am going to believe.  It is like asking, who are you going to believe, Matthew or John.  They are saying the same message, just a little differently.  I’m surprised that you don’t find that there are problems with the gospels because they don’t all say the same exact stories, word for word.  You can even say that there are differences with the Old Testament and the New Testament, but I comfortably am able to find the Word in all of it and mesh them into one continuous message.

Regardless of your opinion, there is an either or. To have truth there has to be absolutes.

When 2 statements are contrary, there are only 4 possible outcomes

1)Jesus/Scripture are true and mgr is false
2)The words of mgr are true and Jesus/Scripture is false
3)Jesus/Scripture and mgr are both false
4)Jesus/Scripture and mgr are both true

You can immediately eliminate #4 if you believe the Bible is true and inerrant. Both cannot be true if they are contrary on an issue or topic

You can immediately eliminate #3 because of they are both false then God is a liar

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: (Hebrews 6:18 NLT)

That leaves only 2 options. It is either 1 or 2. There aren't any other permutations

As to your view that the Bible is errant, then that opens up a whole other issue. You then place yourself as god determining which is true and false. In addition, You use an inordinate amount of new age references to self as being the ultimate gauge and guide for truth

Scripture is again the authority

"The human heart is most deceitful and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? (Jeremiah 17:9 NLT)

Satan did the same thing.

11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’
12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. (Isaiah 11:11-15 NKJV)

**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#35 anonymous

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 10:01 AM

When asked for an explanation regarding the discrepancy between the SCRIPTURAL passage, Isaiah 4:1, which dhs determined correlated to anti-SCRIPTURAL verses, 10 and 3, he responded with the following:

let me repeat a previous post:

if you disagree with the contents of the S&L, the issue is NOT Dan *****************, ... it is between the reader and the contents of the book

in response to your question: What you are quoting is the manner that MGR interpreted the passge of Is 4:1. My own personal opinion I would not offer, becasue it is conjecture.

dhs declined giving an answer on the grounds that this would be �conjecture.�

From dhs' response to anakainosis below, however, we can see he has no problem with conjecturing:

anakainosis quoted the following:

"Therefore I, Maxim, am now called by His new name: King of Spirits and God of the faithful of all the land, for the new Kingdom of peace with Christ for a thousand years.� Book 9:15:7

All of MGR's statements have a Scriptural connection, whether or not anybody, including anakainosis, is willing to attribute the fulfillment to MGR.

Rev 3:12: He who conquers.... And I will write on him .... my new name.

Read this verse very carefully anakainosis. Jesus is bestowing upon the person who conquers over sin and temptation (I Cor 15:57) several names, and including His new name. What does this mean? It means that the new name that Jesus possesses, which is defined in Phil 2:9, which God gave to Jesus, that Jesus will give this same name to that person who conquers sin and temptation. Since MGR gained the victory through Jesus, per I Cor 15:57, the promise of receiving the new name that Jesus possesses is fulfilled in MGR.

The shallow and diluted mind of the baby-bottle fed Christian will not be able to fathom such a concept. But it is plainly Scriptural: just read Rev 3:12 !!!

So the issue is anakainosis ascending from the baby-bottle fed diluted ecumenical Christendom and into the celestial depths of the fathomless spiritual concepts of the Spirit and Life.

This is just one concept explained; but as long as anakainosis has a chip on his shoulder, and refuses to allow MGR the fulfillment of such passages as Rev 3:12, and also Rev 3:21 and 12:5, it is useless to pursue exegises of any other passages.

If anakainosis cannot accept fundamental Scriptural tenets of the Molokan community - such as food laws, objection to military service and war, and marraige within the faith - how can you accept concepts for the spiritually mature. Read John 3:12, this is you anakainosis !!!

REPEAT: The issue is one of accountability.

dhs professes to be a �Bible teacher and lay preacher for over 30 years,� however, when asked to explain the content and context of Isaiah 4:1, and its relationship to book 6, article 9, verse 10 and book 14, article 14, verse 3, respectively, the statements which dhs determined were referring to the SCRIPTURAL passage he inserted (Isaiah 4:1), he runs for cover under �conjecture.�

Which prompts the question, what has dhs been teaching for �over 30 years?" Conjecture�???

The washing of Pontius Pilate�s hands did not absolve him and his participation in the evil work. The gesture was an attempt to convince people of his innocence, but more so, his own conscience. In truth, of course, he was guilty as he was responsible for his actions.


#36 dhshubin

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 10:28 AM

If this was the era of the inquistion, you would likewise drag Dan ***************** to be burnt at the stake at the order of Pope Innocent - or maybe it was Pope Pious. They liked having names like that, it was a good mask, like a pseudonym.

and anonymous would vote to crucify Jesus too, as did Caiaphas and the Sudducean Sanhedrin, because they preferred a militant Messiah rather than one that told them to love their enemies, turn the other cheek, resist not the evil person, and to put down that sword.

Is 4:1 is the Scriptural backround for MGR's interpretation. The conjectures of a human is not revelant. If this is insufficient Scriptural backround, I cannot help you. Maybe go back to your pastor and have him fill up your baby bottle, I think it is empty.

do you believe Rev 2:12 ?

#37 fourvetta

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 01:22 PM

As to your view that the Bible is errant, then that opens up a whole other issue. You then place yourself as god determining which is true and false. In addition, You use an inordinate amount of new age references to self as being the ultimate gauge and guide for truth

Scripture is again the authority


Good. Now that we have the truth established, do you accept the Word of God as truth? There are three who bear witness to the truth.


5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


The scripture above states that the testimony of God is true, the testimony of the Word is true and the the testimony Spirit is true.

The scriptures tell us that among the testimony of two or three, the truth shall be established.

Anyone who says of the testimony, "It is not the truth, is a liar and has not the son or the father."

Do you recieve the testimony of Jesus Christ? Or do you not recieve His testimony?

3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


So we know that God gave Christ His testimony. Who in turn, gave His testimony to John, to give to the churches.

Do you believe that the following scripture is the true testimony of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? That the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is with a New name?

19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


and

2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

The Hidden Manna is the Hidden Wisdom according to the Apostle Paul. Remember that the scripture is the authority.


2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


#38 ligonier

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 02:35 PM

If this was the era of the inquistion, you would likewise drag Dan ***************** to be burnt at the stake at the order of Pope Innocent - or maybe it was Pope Pious. They liked having names like that, it was a good mask, like a pseudonym.

and anonymous would vote to crucify Jesus too, as did Caiaphas and the Sudducean Sanhedrin, because they preferred a militant Messiah rather than one that told them to love their enemies, turn the other cheek, resist not the evil person, and to put down that sword.

Is 4:1 is the Scriptural backround for MGR's interpretation. The conjectures of a human is not revelant. If this is insufficient Scriptural backround, I cannot help you. Maybe go back to your pastor and have him fill up your baby bottle, I think it is empty.

do you believe Rev 2:12 ?

Dz. *****'s response, in a nutshell:

Attack.................then look at poor little ol' me

Then attack again.

Then, this verse (Is 4:1) was the best I could do, so deal with it. Attack again.

Then:

"And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;" (Rev 2:12)



Ok Dz. *****, I'm confused why you threw the verse in at the end. Does it have a meaning pertaining to something I missed ? Is your tongue (or keystroke) sharp like that ?

Are you not going to even try to dialogue intelligently, with thoughtfulness and study ?

If I was a person on the fence (between pro MGR and anti MGR), your words wouldn't be weighing much.

With all those years of study and effort, I expect more from you (of all people).
"Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorant words?... Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. Do you know how its dimensions were determined and who did the surveying? What supports its foundations, and who laid its cornerstone as the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" (Job 38:2)

"Then the LORD said... Do you still want to argue with the Almighty? You are God's critic, but do you have the answers?" (Job 40:2)

Therefore I melt away; I repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:6)]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better to die awake.............................Than to live asleep. (read Mark 13:33-37)

#39 dhshubin

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 02:56 PM

excuse for making a mistake; God allows me one per lifetime:

Rev 3:12

but you could have viewed the earlier post, which apparently you did not.

#40 ligonier

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 03:05 PM

"To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers -- not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:1-3)

Edited by ligonier, 12 October 2005 - 03:06 PM.

"Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorant words?... Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. Do you know how its dimensions were determined and who did the surveying? What supports its foundations, and who laid its cornerstone as the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" (Job 38:2)

"Then the LORD said... Do you still want to argue with the Almighty? You are God's critic, but do you have the answers?" (Job 40:2)

Therefore I melt away; I repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:6)]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better to die awake.............................Than to live asleep. (read Mark 13:33-37)

#41 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 03:33 PM


As to your view that the Bible is errant, then that opens up a whole other issue. You then place yourself as god determining which is true and false. In addition, You use an inordinate amount of new age references to self as being the ultimate gauge and guide for truth

Scripture is again the authority


Good. Now that we have the truth established, do you accept the Word of God as truth?

Yes. The (66 Book - KJV) Bible is the inerrant Word of God

Where do we go from here?
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#42 anakainosis

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 03:44 PM

“God allows me one per lifetime”- Dan *****************


uhh…. Is that one scriptural or are you joking? :mellow:
Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#43 dhshubin

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 04:47 PM

time to go to church and worship God according to the tradition of my Russian Molokan forefathers; it is the Day of Atonement. We also had morning services and I read from MGR regarding the coming millenial Kingdom.

What about anakainosis? Oh, I forgot, you people don't recognize God's Bible holidays interpreted in the meaning of the New Covenant of Jesus, as explained by our Molokan preceptors. Does your pastor stand next to an American flag at his pulpit?

anakainosis would prefer to celebrate holidays of a pagan or secular origin like the balance of American Christendom.

do you believe Rev 3:12 ?

#44 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 05:30 PM

Don't forget the animal sacrifice

Oh, that's right you observe the Day of Atonement, but you don't do it the way Scripture prescribes

You have made up you own way to God ignoring Jesus

Good "luck"
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#45 steadfast

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 08:09 PM

time to go to church and worship God according to the tradition of my Russian Molokan forefathers; it is the Day of Atonement. We also had morning services and I read from MGR regarding the coming millenial Kingdom.


Aren't you contradicting yourself? Did you read to them; "Here presently there is no need for us to have appointed ceremonial and ornamented days or holidays of what ever sort– Hebrew or gentile"? MGR pg. 500-v8.

Isn't this also the tradition of your Russian Molokan forefathers that you speak of? Which one are you going to adhere too? Yes Holidays or No Holidays.

Which scripture talks about the double minded being unstable in ALL their ways!

#46 Mitrovitch

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 02:12 PM

Seeking Truth

If you actually took the time to look up the etymology of Gospel, you would find that I am correct. I simply did not go back to Greek, but rather stayed with English and it’s Anglo-Saxon origin. However, the Greek word is evangelion, not eugalizzo. Now since neither of us speak Greek as our first language, the grammatical correctness of the word is not really something to argue about. Nevertheless, out of your zeal to find me wrong, you were not actually seeking truth. The following is from dictionary.com:

gospel
1. a word of Anglo-Saxon origin, and meaning "God's spell", i.e., word of God, or
rather, according to others, "good spell", i.e., good news. It is the rendering
of the Greek _evangelion_, i.e., "good message." It denotes (1) "the welcome
intelligence of salvation to man as preached by our Lord and his followers.

If you look up the word “spell”, you will find that the etymology renders “word” or “letter”.

As far are your accusation of “Please cite something to bolster your position sans personal attack and innuendo.” is not well taken. I have restrained myself from personal attack, so as to take the high road. I would like to keep this civilized and sophisticated, if possible.

With regard to our relative biblical understandings, you don’t know me and I’m sure I have not had a lengthy discussion with regard to my faith. However, in order for us to have a civilized and sophisticated discussion, we need to be on the same page with regard to the meanings of words. Once we can agree upon the meanings of words, then we might be able to get somewhere with regard to the meanings of the sentences and chapters.

I personally happen to think that the definition of gospel to mean the Word of God was an apt definition and I do not understand why you would argue with that. Are you opposed to the Gospel as being considered the Word of God?

Then you go on to quote Matthew, which I agree with the words you quote, but not necessarily with your meaning and I’ll tell you why: Based upon our belief that we are not to judge others, (Matt 7:1-2; Luke 6:37), it is judging other that the position which they started from may be pagan, may be Hindu, may be Aztec or a cannibal from New Guinea. Once you judge, you preclude others from the true Word of God. It does not matter if they accept the Bible or not. What matters is whether they accept the message that is within. The message of the Word of God (i.e. gospel) is first and foremost to become born from on high. (John 3:3-8; John 1:13; Luke 7:28; Luke 1:35). It does not matter where your beginning is, but rather where you end up. Look at the thief who was crucified next to Jesus. The main question is how does one get born from on high? It is not just a profession that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, but actually an interjection of yourself into the spiritual realm. That is a big distinction with what we are talking about. The path into the spiritual realm is very narrow and it is difficult to go through, but not if you go straight in. We need to be on the same page here before we can go on.

The long history of Molokans have believed this from time immemorial. Your contention with Maxim is simply that he was the one who wrote this down. There is also David Yesseich, Lukian Petrovitch, Efim Gerasimich, Philip Mehialich, and others who have contributed writings. In reality, the S&L is largely commentary on the cannonized books, with some prophecies and songs.

If you are really seeking truth, rather than stating that my statement is in the Spirit of the Anti-Christ, you should be behooved to inquire what I mean by my statements. I believe that all things are made by God and that God created life and gave us enlightenment and the Spirit for us and that the light dwells within us. (See John 1:3-5, 13). The Spirit dwelling within us is the Son of God and the Son of God dwells within all of those which have interjected themselves into the Spiritual realm and have become sons of light, which are sons of light. (John 1:18; Matt 5:14-16; Luke 1:79; Luke 2:27-32; John 12:35-36; 2Cor 4:4-6; Eph 5:8; 1Thes 5:5)

You see, the real reason that I believe that you and I are not on the same page is that I don’t believe that you have actually been born of light from on high, but are sitting in confusion. (John 1:5; Romans 2:19). John 14:6 is a good verse, but what does 14:7 mean to you? If you had known (gnosis) of the Christ, you would know God. Gnosis is an intimate type of knowledge, which is within you.

What I am speaking about is the Christ, which means “Annointed,” and being in the Spirit of Christ means Annointed with the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Spirit of Christ must dwell within us if we are to find any salvation. The distinction with most so-call Christians is that Christ is separate from us and someplace off in heaven and that we don’t have true access to God or to Christ, but that we speak up our prayers to heaven and that Jesus takes them up. This is the doctrine propagated by the Ecumenical Councils so as to appease the Emperor Constantine, whose goal was to control people through religion. The Ecumenical Councils authorized the killing of anyone who did not accept the beliefs as established by them, which is where you get the killing of the Gnostics and of the early True Believers. This was supported by the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church, the Church of England, etc.

Moreover, the Ecumenical Councils are the ones who canonized the books. There are scriptures that they did not include, including writings of other Apostles. I don’t believe that the collection put together by the Ecumenical Councils is complete, but is simply a version of the story that they want you to believe. Fortunately, there is enough of the Truth in the Books remaining to uncover what God’s message is. However, it has been skewed by a millenium and a half of dogma and commentary supported by fear and torture to enforce a certain view.

And by the way, do not say that I said that the Bible is errant. You have no basis for that opinion. It is conjecture at best and slander at worst. Furthermore, I do not consider myself as a gauge and guide of truth, but rely upon the Holy Spirit to guide me. I would pray that you do the same.

#47 anakainosis

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 04:15 PM

“time to go to church and worship God according to the tradition of my Russian Molokan forefathers; it is the Day of Atonement. We also had morning services and I read from MGR regarding the coming millenial Kingdom.” – Dan *****************



To Whom It May Concern:

Danny was preaching the coming millennial kingdom from what was written by MGR. And knowing with my bottle-fed, ecumenical, flag next to the pulpit, teaching I don’t have the eyes to see and understand the words from the bitter one.

How does any Maximist justify MGR’s prophecy regarding the great Judgment at Armageddon, with the inauguration of the Millennium at the end of the nineteenth century?

MGR Book 6:14:1
MGR Book 10:5:5-9
MGR Book 12:11:4-6

Uh, the nineteenth century has passed but Danny is still preaching a coming.

Please enlighten us…. :huh:




Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#48 ligonier

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 04:37 PM

Dude... it's the Pope ! .........waving at me! :lol: :p :lol: :D :p :lol:
"Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorant words?... Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. Do you know how its dimensions were determined and who did the surveying? What supports its foundations, and who laid its cornerstone as the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" (Job 38:2)

"Then the LORD said... Do you still want to argue with the Almighty? You are God's critic, but do you have the answers?" (Job 40:2)

Therefore I melt away; I repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:6)]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better to die awake.............................Than to live asleep. (read Mark 13:33-37)

#49 coffee

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 11:14 PM

From Red October:

Does anyone ever bother looking at the headers? It says "A Song".....that should be a clue. Its a praise...as in not a prophecy or testament, etc....but a praise....which leads me to number..

Its a SONG....and MGR is incorporating refernces to God, Christ and the Holy Spirit concering mans disobediance and Grace from Christ. Versus 31-32 is about Christ, verse 33 is about the Holy Spirit.

Not everyone is capable to tell the difference when he was refering to God, Christ or the Holy Spirit. I guess he presumed too much in thinking people would be more devout to God.

King of Spirits does not equate to God and does not mean God.

Your making the title "King of Spirits" out to be much larger with more authority than it is.

God = God of Gods (above all other Gods....FYI, Rulers such as the Tsar, often demanded to be revered like Gods, your using God in the extreme sense while MGR is not).

The header said "A Song", not "A Testament" or "A prophesy" or anything of the like. But "A Song" meaning its going to have metaphors and allegorical references.



Red October, echoing the excuses of those who are the loyal and faithful followers of Rudometkin, is adamant about defending his hero's honor with the sorry excuse that Rudometkin's claims about being "God" are done within the context of "praise", as if lyrics that are part of a "song". This could be considered a plausible answer if it were even remotely close to being the case with what is written in the Spirit and Life book.

Rudometkin wrote:

"(Because) of this you have forced me prematurely to make known to you my wonderfully extraordinary New Israelite name, which is the majesty of the Almighty's title, that was put upon me by God Himself."

(From Rudometkin's writings in the Spirit and Life book, Page 575, Book 13, Article 2, Verse 2)



In Rudometkin's Russian text, the term "Almighty" is capitalized. Whenever Rudometkin capitalizes the proper name of the "title" of God throughout his writings, he is always referring to The Almighty, as in the Lord God Himself.

In this excerpt quoted above, Rudometkin is stating that his wonderfully extraordinary New Israelite name is specifically that of the majestic "title" of The Almighty. In other words, Rudometkin claimed to have the title of "The Almighty", Who is God.

This is not the prelude to a "song". Nor does the rest of the text continue in "praise" to God. In fact, this is the section of Rudometkin's writings where he proclaims the "message" to his loyal "followers" that he was the "seven-storied heavenly ladder, by which eternally ascend and descend the secret pronouncements of God Almighty".


Rudometkin begins this specific section of his writings with the disclaimer:

I, your renowned brother, formerly incarcerated at Solovetski Island, and now I sit in the same kind of pit at the Suzdalski Monastery. (Page 575, Book 13, Article 1, Verse 11)


In other words, Rudometkin is identifying himself as the writer, and he is not writing "in the spirit". From this, we know that the one writing this is not God the Father, nor the Lord Jesus Christ, nor is this coming from someone who is the alleged "mouthpiece" for the Holy Spirit. Rudometkin wrote these words as coming from himself, M. G. Rudometkin.

In the very next statement, Rudometkin proceeds to tell his followers this:

I have written you many letters, but you have not yet understood that which is written about me in them, and therefore I see that you are still ignorant. Either that or your spirit is not in agreement with my Spirit like it used to be; for it is clear that you have quickly forgotten me. (Page 575, Book 13, Article 2, Verse 1)


Again, these are the words of Rudometkin. Neither the Father, the Son, nor the Holy Spirit were writing these "many letters". For certain, the context here is not a song of "praise".

Obviously, Rudometkin is attempting to "explain" to his followers about himself and his "status" as some sort of spiritual "leader" over them. According to the context of what is written, Rudometkin was telling his followers that he had been given his "wonderfully extraordinary New Israelite name", which was "the majesty of the Almighty's title" that was "put upon him" by God Himself.

Rudometkin was trying very hard to "convince" his followers that he had been given the "majesty" of having the very title of "The Almighty" bestowed upon him by "God Himself". Those who are familiar with the history of the Khlysty in Russia are able to recognize immediately that Rudometkin's claim about being Deity in the flesh over his "followers" is identical to the claims commonly made by those Khlysty who were historically revered as "christs" over their own followers.



(From Rudometkin's writings in the Spirit and Life book, on Page 580, Book 13, Article 6, Verse 1-2)

By this is how I (Rudometkin) am called by my new name, which I have written to you here in these lines by the testimony of the true Spirit. (Verse 1)

The first name: Enfayil - Mighty God; second: Savakhan - King of promise; third: Youlia-Yar - Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come. (Verse 2)


Again, this was not written in the context of a song, and the only "praise" being given, is being given to Rudometkin, by Rudometkin.


"Even though I (Rudometkin) was first born of sinful flesh, but by my second birth I was born the Lord from heaven and, through my suffering, I was born God of the faithful." (Page 541, Book 11, Article 13, Verse 11)


Consistent with the Khlysty heresy that he introduced to his followers, Rudometkin openly stated that he was "God". Rudometkin NEVER claimed to be "a" god. In each instance, his claim was that he is "God".

On Page 536, Rudometkin wrote that he will never forgive those who offended him. In the very next breath, he stated the following:

"I am a martyr for the truth, and God of the faithful." (Spirit and Life book, Page 536, Book 11, Article 9, Verse 2)


This is not the personality characteristic of the God of the Bible, of Whom King David wrote about in the Scriptures:

For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you. (Psalm 86:5)


Danilo Filipov was the legendary "christ" among the Khlysty, who pronounced himself to be "God Sabaoth" on earth. Rudometkin, following in the footsteps of his Khlysty forefather, was deceived into believing that he, Rudometkin himself, was the final "christ", as "God on earth", who would usher in the thousand year kingdom on earth.

"And for this He (God the Father Himself) will set me (Rudometkin, in the flesh) as king upon it (the world), because I am everywhere lord of the truth.

And truly, that is why my portion is the cross, God of the faithful.

Although I (Rudometkin), by my first birth, am a man of sinful bones, but by my second birth, I am the Lord Himself, from heaven." (Page 415, in Book 7, Article 27, Verses 6-8)


At the beginning of this section (Page 414, Introduction to Article 27), Rudometkin explains that these words were in response to three questions that he was asked while in prison. In other words, Rudometkin was answering questions. He was not writing some alleged "song of praise".


On Page 497 of the Spirit and Life book, Article 8 begins with the heading as The Reading For New Israel. This is not a "song". From Rudometkin's other writings, we know that he often referred to his own loyal "followers" as the "new israel". After introducing this "reading", Rudometkin proceeds to tell his followers this:

And moreover I, your master, am sitting in the city of Suzdal all this time....(Rudometkin wrote this while in the monastery prison in Suzdal.)

....I am called by this new name, today and always, both in heaven and on earth; for I am Youl'iesar, King Yoorece, the New Jewish Messiah; and the Jew and all the tribes of all the nations shall bow down to me. (Rudometkin, Pages 497-498, Book 10, Article 8, Verses 4 & 7)


This same "theme" is continued throughout Rudometkin's writings in the Spirit and Life book, as we can read in the following:

Even though I was first born of sinful flesh, but by my second birth I was born the Lord from heaven and, through my suffering, I was born God of the faithful. (Page 541, Book 11, Article 13, Verse 11)


I am a martyr for the truth, and GOD of the faithful. (Rudometkin, Page 536, Book 11, Article 9, Verse 2)


....I am the first and the last, as GOD of the earth. (Rudometkin, Page 503, Book 10, Article 14, Verses 3-4)


None of these excerpts were written by Rudometkin in the context of some alleged "song of praise". The only "praise" being given is the heretical praise of Rudometkin, praising himself.


From the Spirit and Life book, Page 352, ARTICLE 17:

The Third Discourse

(Again, this is a "discourse", not some alleged "song of praise". According to the dictionary, a discourse is a speech, or "lecture", or treatise on a subject. A "treatise" is defined as a "written work" dealing with one particular subject.)


Following is Rudometkin's discourse:

....Let each heed - those that have ears - and with them, listen well to that which my new spirit evangelizes in new fiery tongues, to all of you, regarding the promised peace for a thousand years. Amen.

For this you will be rewarded by me with eternal life, and the Kingdom of peace of our Lord Jesus Christ, upon this good land for a thousand years,

Moreover, you will truly be given all of this from me, if only you justly fulfill my will in the Spirit.

Then I, the New Youlia, will congratulate you with the rank of the inheritance of all the thrones of the new land in Israel, and therein I will give you a new name.

Therefore, heed this, each one of you today; look boldly upon me....and always be prepared for me, your vigilant master.


Regarding Red October's statement in defense of Rudometkin:

He thinks he's God, so he could have walked out of prison at anytime he wanted (and he did want out from what I gather reading).



Among each group of the Khlysty, they each believed that the individual "christ" who reigned over their specific "ark" was the physical incarnation of "God" in human form. The Khlysty believed this about the Lord Jesus Christ, which is what Rudometkin constantly and consistently attempted to "educate" his followers about himself, and his contention that he personally was the physical incarnation of the Holy Spirit, in human form:

For this Spirit is in person God Himself, and the King of all the new Israel. (Page 434, Book 8, Article 15, Verse 2)


Again, this is not some alleged "song". It is "instruction" from Rudometkin about himself, concerning that which he, Rudometkin, was deceived into believing about himself. To defend and participate in this heresy is idolatry against the Lord. Idolatry is defined in the dictionary as "blind admiration and devotion".

#50 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 01:03 PM

<<snip>>
Rudometkin was trying very hard to "convince" his followers that he had been given the "majesty" of having the very title of "The Almighty" bestowed upon him by "God Himself".  Those who are familiar with the history of the Khlysty in Russia are able to recognize immediately that Rudometkin's claim about being Deity in the flesh over his "followers" is identical to the claims commonly made by those Khlysty who were historically revered as "christs" over their own followers. 

(From Rudometkin's writings in the Spirit and Life book, on Page 580, Book 13, Article 6, Verse 1-2)

By this is how I (Rudometkin) am called by my new name, which I have written to you here in these lines by the testimony of the true Spirit. (Verse 1)

The first name: Enfayil - Mighty God; second: Savakhan - King of promise; third: Youlia-Yar - Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come. (Verse 2)
<<snip>>

Wow Again

Thank coffee for the time and effort you spend to expose this

The thing that stood out in your last post the most was this statement made by mgr regarding his new names and the khlsyti revering various individuals as "christs" over their followers

1 Nevertheless, that time of darkness and despair will not go on forever. The land of Zebulun and Naphtali will soon be humbled, but there will be a time in the future when Galilee of the Gentiles, which lies along the road that runs between the Jordan and the sea, will be filled with glory.
2 The people who walk in darkness will see a great light––a light that will shine on all who live in the land where death casts its shadow.
3 Israel will again be great, and its people will rejoice as people rejoice at harvesttime. They will shout with joy like warriors dividing the plunder.
4 For God will break the chains that bind his people and the whip that scourges them, just as he did when he destroyed the army of Midian with Gideon’s little band.
5 In that day of peace, battle gear will no longer be issued. Never again will uniforms be bloodstained by war. All such equipment will be burned.
6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. And the government will rest on his shoulders. These will be his royal titles: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 His ever expanding, peaceful government will never end. He will rule forever with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David. The passionate commitment of the LORD Almighty will guarantee this! (Isaiah 9:1-7 NLT)


The parallels are quite obvious that MGR is attempting to share a position equal to Jesus

Satan did the same thing in stating that he would be like the Most High

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
(Isaiah 14:12-14 NKJV)


How can anyone miss this and continue in exhaulting mgr?
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#51 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 08:22 AM

Seeking Truth

If you actually took the time to look up the etymology of Gospel, you would find that I am correct.  I simply did not go back to Greek, but rather stayed with English and it’s Anglo-Saxon origin.  However, the Greek word is evangelion, not eugalizzo.  Now since neither of us speak Greek as our first language, the grammatical correctness of the word  is not really something to argue about.  Nevertheless, out of your zeal to find me wrong, you were not actually seeking truth.  The following is from dictionary.com:

gospel
1. a word of Anglo-Saxon origin, and meaning "God's spell", i.e., word of God, or
rather, according to others, "good spell", i.e., good news. It is the rendering
of the Greek _evangelion_, i.e., "good message." It denotes (1) "the welcome
intelligence of salvation to man as preached by our Lord and his followers.

If you look up the word “spell”, you will find that the etymology renders “word” or “letter”.

As far are your accusation of “Please cite something to bolster your position sans personal attack and innuendo.” is not well taken.  I have restrained myself from personal attack, so as to take the high road.  I would like to keep this civilized and sophisticated, if possible. 


We will begin by correcting you on this issue:

The derivation of a word (etymologically speaking) from the Greek is one of 2 variants on the word gospel

euaggelion yoo-ang-ghel’-ee-on - See Strongs 2098
euaggelizo yoo-ang-ghel-id’-zo - See Strongs 2097

Scripture Reference:
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. (Matthew 4:23 NKJV)

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.(1 Corinthians 1:17 NKJV)

Ga 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed (Galatians 1:9 NKJV)

All of which mean good news

In your zeal to defend your incorrect position, you again failed to provide accurate information.

This is not the core issue, but rather it needs to be established that your ability to seek truth, then derive and present accurate information is questionable

With regard to our relative biblical understandings, you don’t know me and I’m sure I have not had a lengthy discussion with regard to my faith.  However, in order for us to have a civilized and sophisticated discussion, we need to be on the same page with regard to the meanings of words.  Once we can agree upon the meanings of words, then we might be able to get somewhere with regard to the meanings of the sentences and chapters.

I personally happen to think that the definition of gospel to mean the Word of God was an apt definition and I do not understand why you would argue with that.  Are you opposed to the Gospel as being considered the Word of God? 

Then you go on to quote Matthew, which I agree with the words you quote, but not necessarily with your meaning and I’ll tell you why: Based upon our belief that we are not to judge others, (Matt 7:1-2; Luke 6:37), it is judging other that the position which they started from may be pagan, may be Hindu, may be Aztec or a cannibal from New Guinea.  Once you judge, you preclude others from the true Word of God.  It does not matter if they accept the Bible or not.  What matters is whether they accept the message that is within.  The message of the Word of God (i.e. gospel) is first and foremost to become born from on high. (John 3:3-8; John 1:13; Luke 7:28; Luke 1:35).  It does not matter where your beginning is, but rather where you end up.  Look at the thief who was crucified next to Jesus.  The main question is how does one get born from on high?  It is not just a profession that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, but actually an interjection of yourself into the spiritual realm.  That is a big distinction with what we are talking about.  The path into the spiritual realm is very narrow and it is difficult to go through, but not if you go straight in.  We need to be on the same page here before we can go on.


Again, you are not rightly dividing the passage and imparting a meaning based upon your personal bias. It is correct we are not to judge another persons Salvation because truly only God knows. However, when someone puts forth another Gospel or "way to acheive eternal life" and it does not align with Scripture, you are called to point that out

1 And so I solemnly urge you before God and before Christ Jesus-who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom:
2 Preach the word of God. Be persistent, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.
3 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear.
4 They will reject the truth and follow strange myths. (2 Timothy 4:1-4 NLT)


Would you consider the thief on the cross a believer?
Do you believe the the thief on the cross obtained eternal life?
Would you consider yourself a believer?
Have you obtained eternal life?
Would the thief on the cross be welcomed into a molokan church?

As to " interjection of yourself into the spiritual realm", the thief didn't do anything other than believe.

39 One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed, "So you’re the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself-and us, too, while you’re at it!"
40 But the other criminal protested, "Don’t you fear God even when you are dying?
41 We deserve to die for our evil deeds, but this man hasn’t done anything wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom."
43 And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:39-43 NLT)[i]

The thief was told that he would be with Jesus in paradise (a.k.a. Heaven) that day. No prayer for the dead to get him into Heaven by his family

The long history of Molokans have believed this from time immemorial.  Your contention with Maxim is simply that he was the one who wrote this down.  There is also David Yesseich, Lukian Petrovitch, Efim Gerasimich, Philip Mehialich, and others who have contributed writings.  In reality, the S&L is largely commentary on the cannonized books, with some prophecies and songs. 


Back to a core issue. If the s & l is simply commentary on cannonized books, then how can so many of the comments be contrary to Scripture?

We have been down this road on this forum to sufficiently illustrate mgr's writings contrarian to the Bible

we can re-visis those if necessary

If you are really seeking truth, rather than stating that my statement is in the Spirit of the Anti-Christ, you should be behooved to inquire what I mean by my statements.  I believe that all things are made by God and that God created life and gave us enlightenment and the Spirit for us and that the light dwells within us.  (See John 1:3-5, 13).  The Spirit dwelling within us is the Son of God and the Son of God dwells within all of those which have interjected themselves into the Spiritual realm and have become sons of light, which are sons of light.  (John 1:18; Matt 5:14-16; Luke 1:79; Luke 2:27-32; John 12:35-36; 2Cor 4:4-6; Eph 5:8; 1Thes 5:5)


You assert in the quote below that true worshippers among "jew(s), muslims, buddist" et al

This again is in the Spirit of Anti Christ. These mentioned religions all deny Jesus as Lord and savior and trounce the Gospel as useless. If the Bible states that there is only One Way, and those religions deny that there is only One Way then they will not acheive eternal life

When I asked “Do you believe that the Spirit of God has descended upon us?”, I am referring to True Worshiper.  Just because you go under the name or the banner of a particular religion does not mean that you are a True Worshiper.  There are True Worshipers who are Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, and others.  The True Worshiping is what Maxim was trying to convey to us.


You see, the real reason that I believe that you and I are not on the same page is that I don’t believe that you have actually been born of light from on high, but are sitting in confusion. (John 1:5; Romans 2:19).  John 14:6 is a good verse, but what does 14:7 mean to you?  If you had known (gnosis) of the Christ, you would know God.  Gnosis is an intimate type of knowledge, which is within you.


John 14:6 & 7 all point to Jesus beng the annointed Son of God who in Him is imparted all the power of God over Life and Death. He, Jesus the Son of God, is the one I place my faith in for life eternal and not in traditions, lineage, ceremony etc...

What I am speaking about is the Christ, which means “Annointed,” and being in the Spirit of Christ means Annointed with the Holy Spirit.  I believe that the Spirit of Christ must dwell within us if we are to find any salvation.  The distinction with most so-call Christians is that Christ is separate from us and someplace off in heaven and that we don’t have true access to God or to Christ, but that we speak up our prayers to heaven and that Jesus takes them up.


[i]19 Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself,
20 for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body. (1Corithians 6:19-20 NLT)


Christ is God in human form. If you know Him (Jesus), you know God

As to Christ carrying the prayers of the Saints, that's not accurate

In fact mgr attempts to be the intercessor between man and God

"Likewise, the entreating intercession regarding you (the believer) by the Spirit in power to the almighty God- the prayer to God will not ever be permitted anyone in any place if bypassing Me (mgr).
For I am the anointed pillar and I stand eternally upon the rock of Zion.
And I am the seven-storied heavenly ladder by only which songs and prayers of the saints eternally ascend and descend!
Also I am the white steed upon earth; I always bear upon myself a rider, the King of Kings and the Lord of lords! Yes this is true, I lie not. Amen.M.G.R. book 14 8:30-33 pg. 603

This is the doctrine propagated by the Ecumenical...<<snip>>


How do you, mitrovich, obtain eternal life?
How does your non-molokan neighbor obtain eternal life?

Hint: It's the same for you and your non-molokan neighbor
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#52 anonymous

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:25 AM

(dhs - October 10, 2005)

If this was the era of the inquistion, you would likewise drag Dan ***************** to be burnt at the stake at the order of Pope Innocent - or maybe it was Pope Pious. They liked having names like that, it was a good mask, like a pseudonym.

and anonymous would vote to crucify Jesus too, as did Caiaphas and the Sudducean Sanhedrin, because they preferred a militant Messiah rather than one that told them to love their enemies, turn the other cheek, resist not the evil person, and to put down that sword.

Is 4:1 is the Scriptural backround for MGR's interpretation. The conjectures of a human is not revelant. If this is insufficient Scriptural backround, I cannot help you. Maybe go back to your pastor and have him fill up your baby bottle, I think it is empty.

Sufficiency or insufficiency is not the question here.

The question is whether or not mgr�s interpretation is GOD�S TRUTH, according to GOD�S [written] WORD, THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, specifically, the Isaiah 4:1 passage, which dhs correlated to mgr�s interpretation.

The content and context comprising Isaiah 4:1, and the content and context comprising mgr�s interpretation is in question here.

Again,

THE HOLY SCRIPTURES

Isaiah 4:1


�And seven women shall take hold of one man in that day, saying, �We shall eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach.�

What is the content and context of this passage? What is Isaiah speaking of?

mgr�s interpretation using the Isaiah 4:1 passage as SCRIPTURAL background for his interpretation as dhs suggests:

book 6, article 9, verse 10, mgr

�Concerning this, the prophet Isaiah speaks that at the time when the glorious light of our God shines upon the earth: �Then will be given seven wives to one man, who God Himself will call His son, the administrator of the kingdom of all the universes.� [Isa. 4:1]

book 14, article 14, verse 3, mgr

�May the Word from Your name be infused righteously upon me first, for the prophet Isaiah clearly states: �And in that day when God Himself will appear on the earth in all His glory, seven women will take hold of one man.� [Isa. 4:1]

What is the content and context of mgr�s interpretation? What is he speaking of?

What background does the Isaiah 4:1 passage provide for mgr�s interpretation other than the seven women whom he interprets as wives to be given to one man?

dhs,

How is Isaiah 4:1, the aftermath of THE LORD GOD�S JUDGMENT on Israel and her destitute, reproachful state in the wake of HIS JUDGMENT on her, background for mgr�s interpretation of a �time when the glorious light of our God shines upon the earth: �Then will be given seven wives to one man, who God Himself will call His son, the administrator of the kingdom of all the universes,� which mgr claims Isaiah speaks of concerning this to which you correlated Isaiah 4:1?

Suggestion:

Read Isaiah chapter 3 in conjunction with chapter 4, verse 1 for a better idea of what 4:1 refers to, and THINK before you give [a truthful] answer (to yourself if not for the readers).

What mgr really was referring to when he stated, "Concerning this..." can be discussed at a later time.


#53 anakainosis

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:50 AM

(***** ***************** - October 10, 2005)

If this was the era of the inquistion, you would likewise drag Dan ***************** to be burnt at the stake at the order of Pope Innocent - or maybe it was Pope Pious. They liked having names like that, it was a good mask, like a pseudonym.

and anonymous would vote to crucify Jesus too, as did Caiaphas and the Sudducean Sanhedrin, because they preferred a militant Messiah rather than one that told them to love their enemies, turn the other cheek, resist not the evil person, and to put down that sword.

Is 4:1 is the Scriptural backround for MGR's interpretation. The conjectures of a human is not revelant. If this is insufficient Scriptural backround, I cannot help you. Maybe go back to your pastor and have him fill up your baby bottle, I think it is empty.



“Is 4:1 is the Scriptural backround for MGR’s interpretation.”

“If this is insufficient Scriptural backround…”


Sufficiency or insufficiency is not the question here.

The question is whether or not mgr’s interpretation is GOD’S TRUTH, according to GOD’S [written] WORD, THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, specifically, the Isaiah 4:1 passage, which ***** correlated to mgr’s interpretation.

The content and context comprising Isaiah 4:1, and the content and context comprising mgr’s interpretation is in question here.

Again,

THE HOLY SCRIPTURES

Isaiah 4:1


“And seven women shall take hold of one man in that day, saying, ‘We shall eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach.”

What is the content and context of this passage? What is Isaiah speaking of?


mgr’s interpretation using the Isaiah 4:1 passage as SCRIPTURAL background for his interpretation as ***** suggests:

book 6, article 9, verse 10, mgr

Concerning this, the prophet Isaiah speaks that at the time when the glorious light of our God shines upon the earth: “Then will be given seven wives to one man, who God Himself will call His son, the administrator of the kingdom of all the universes.” [Isa. 4:1]

book 14, article 14, verse 3, mgr

“May the Word from Your name be infused righteously upon me first, for the prophet Isaiah clearly states: ‘And in that day when God Himself will appear on the earth in all His glory, seven women will take hold of one man.” [Isa. 4:1]

What is the content and context of mgr’s interpretation? What is he speaking of?

What background does the Isaiah 4:1 passage provide for mgr’s interpretation other than the seven women whom he interprets as wives to be given to one man?

*****,

How is Isaiah 4:1, the aftermath of THE LORD GOD’S JUDGMENT on Israel and her destitute, reproachful state in the wake of HIS JUDGMENT on her, background for mgr’s interpretation of a “time when the glorious light of our God shines upon the earth: ‘Then will be given seven wives to one man, who God Himself will call His son, the administrator of the kingdom of all the universes,” which mgr claims Isaiah speaks of concerning this to which you correlated Isaiah 4:1?

Suggestion:

Read Isaiah chapter 3 in conjunction with chapter 4, verse 1 for a better idea of what 4:1 refers to, and THINK before you give [a truthful] answer (to yourself if not for the readers).

We can discuss what mgr was really referring to when he stated, "Concerning this..." later if you'd like.


Sounds like a justification for adultery. Like Joseph Smith and the early Mormons. Joe justified having more wives by twisting scripture like that. In fact he had 30 wives including a 16 year old.
And then he was persecuted by many for that reason and used to fuel his movement of believers, using the woe is me; I’m being persecuted for Christ line. And ignorant people believed him. Mormonism is going strong today with churches popping up everywhere!

Just another false gospel being taught and its not much different than MGR’s. <_<

Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#54 EGK

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 08:31 PM

Just a Thought!

Jesus replies to the Sadducees in Luke 20: 33-36,"Therefore in the ressurection whose wife of them is she? For seven had her to wife. And Jesus answering said unto them, The childrren of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the ressurection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the ressurection". Why would a man need seven wives when God created us for only one in the beginning? My God is not one of confusion but of truth! But what does one of Maxim's accursed know any way? "I will curse their seed to be insane, the same for Stenya, Varya, their cursed husbands and their children."


EGK

#55 Mitrovitch

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 01:34 PM

EGK,

I'm not exactly sure what you are thinking, but in response to the quote you posted, those who have been born from above have the Spirit of the Living God in them. If you look at verse 38, it says "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." The God of the Living is the God that has as His people those who have been born of the Spirit, for until you are born of the Spirit, you are amongst the dead.

The Church of the Living God is known as the Woman in Sun Garments, which is the ultimate radiance of light surrounding her. Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church. What it looks like you were pointing to was about where Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him. Presumably, if you let it, it can dwell within each of us. It does not make him any more special than anyone else. I have heard another prophet speak in similar terms. It is a prophetic way of speaking about communion in the Holy Spirit.

#56 anakainosis

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 02:09 PM

Just a Thought!

Jesus replies to the Sadducees in Luke 20: 33-36,"Therefore in the ressurection whose wife of them is she? For seven had her to wife. And Jesus answering said unto them, The childrren of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the ressurection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the ressurection". Why would a man need seven wives when God created us for only one in the beginning? My God is not one of confusion but of truth! But what does one of Maxim's accursed know any way? "I will curse their seed to be insane, the same for Stenya, Varya, their cursed husbands and their children."


EGK

Good Point EGK!
Did you know Maxim is King and God of the New Israel? See for yourselves in book 3 Article 25. Also book 8:15:2

Please note the following when reading the S&L:

"Capitol letters, which are hardly distinguishable in the original manuscripts of the authors, have been added wherever the context is clearly in regard to Deity, the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Savior, the Paradise and the Kingdom. Pronouns also are capitalized when the reference is clearly to the above items. The definite and indefinite articles (a, an, the) which do not exist in modern Russian, have been added throughout the translation for a smoother flow of reading." Pg. 8, Eng. S&L

"My friends, I (Apostle Paul) want you to remember the Gospel that I preached and that you believed and trusted. You will be saved by this message, if you hold firmly to it. But if you don?t, your faith was all for nothing. I told you the most important part of the message exactly as it was told to me. That part is: Christ died for our sins, as the Scriptures say. He was buried, and three days later he was raised to life, as the Scriptures say." (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" -GEORGE WHITEFIELD

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."- C.H. Spurgeon

#57 ligonier

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 06:45 PM

I don't know why you guys are still posting in this "In response to Dan *****************" thread. Remember, DHShubin said he wouldn't be responding until Kusha is over.

Another thread should be started so he doesn't fall too far behind, and have too much to read to catch-up.
"Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorant words?... Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. Do you know how its dimensions were determined and who did the surveying? What supports its foundations, and who laid its cornerstone as the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" (Job 38:2)

"Then the LORD said... Do you still want to argue with the Almighty? You are God's critic, but do you have the answers?" (Job 40:2)

Therefore I melt away; I repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:6)]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better to die awake.............................Than to live asleep. (read Mark 13:33-37)

#58 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 07:24 PM

<<snippage>>
Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church.  <<snippage again>>
<<snippity>> Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him.<<snip-snip>>


So are you implying that mgr believed that whoever has the holy spirit were/are one in the same?

That would mean that blacks, asians, hispanics and so on could all be a part

That being the case, why aren't blacks, asians, hispanics welcomed in molokan churches today?
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#59 Mitrovitch

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 10:43 AM

<<snippage>>
Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church.  <<snippage again>>
<<snippity>> Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him.<<snip-snip>>


So are you implying that mgr believed that whoever has the holy spirit were/are one in the same?

That would mean that blacks, asians, hispanics and so on could all be a part

That being the case, why aren't blacks, asians, hispanics welcomed in molokan churches today?

Molokans are a cultural group made of Russian people. The distinction that you are talking about is racial. There are Asian Molokans, Arab (if you want to call that a race), and Caucasian. If we start naming names of who is what, people will likely get offended. Nevertheless, God made cultural groups as well as races. As a cultural group, we have a cohesiveness attributable to our Russian heritage.

We do have hispanic Molokans. There are some Molokans who are from Russian extraction who emigrated to Mexico, Panama, and elsewhere in the Latin World. Many of those speak Spanish quite well. However, they still have a Russian cultural group, and not just a Russian, but a Molokan heritage.

#60 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:41 AM

<<snippage>>
Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church.  <<snippage again>>
<<snippity>> Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him.<<snip-snip>>


So are you implying that mgr believed that whoever has the holy spirit were/are one in the same?

That would mean that blacks, asians, hispanics and so on could all be a part

That being the case, why aren't blacks, asians, hispanics welcomed in molokan churches today?

Molokans are a cultural group made of Russian people. The distinction that you are talking about is racial. There are Asian Molokans, Arab (if you want to call that a race), and Caucasian. If we start naming names of who is what, people will likely get offended. Nevertheless, God made cultural groups as well as races. As a cultural group, we have a cohesiveness attributable to our Russian heritage.

We do have hispanic Molokans. There are some Molokans who are from Russian extraction who emigrated to Mexico, Panama, and elsewhere in the Latin World. Many of those speak Spanish quite well. However, they still have a Russian cultural group, and not just a Russian, but a Molokan heritage.

So you saying that a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, (1Corithians 6:19 NLT)
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#61 Mitrovitch

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 02:34 PM

<<snippage>>
Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church.  <<snippage again>>
<<snippity>> Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him.<<snip-snip>>


So are you implying that mgr believed that whoever has the holy spirit were/are one in the same?

That would mean that blacks, asians, hispanics and so on could all be a part

That being the case, why aren't blacks, asians, hispanics welcomed in molokan churches today?

Molokans are a cultural group made of Russian people. The distinction that you are talking about is racial. There are Asian Molokans, Arab (if you want to call that a race), and Caucasian. If we start naming names of who is what, people will likely get offended. Nevertheless, God made cultural groups as well as races. As a cultural group, we have a cohesiveness attributable to our Russian heritage.

We do have hispanic Molokans. There are some Molokans who are from Russian extraction who emigrated to Mexico, Panama, and elsewhere in the Latin World. Many of those speak Spanish quite well. However, they still have a Russian cultural group, and not just a Russian, but a Molokan heritage.

So you saying that a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, (1Corithians 6:19 NLT)

Where are you getting that interpretation from what I posted? I said that Molokans are a cultural group. There are many cultural groups throughout the world. Each has their own way of doing things and each should continue doing things the way that they have. I personally can't stand Chinese food. I don't think there is anything innately wrong with the Chinese culture. They like Chinese food, they like dragons, they like fireworks in January. I'm sure that there are Chinese people who accept the Holy Spirit and who are believers. I believe that they should remain Chinese and do their Chinese things and stick to their Chinese brethren, but in effect we are all in the same Church, the Woman Clothed in the Sun. This is what I believe is meant by when Jesus said that Our Father has a big mansion with many rooms. It's all the same house, just the Chinese are with the Chinese, the Molokans are with the Molokans, the Latinos are with the Latinos, etc.

#62 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 03:47 PM

<<snippage>>
Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church.  <<snippage again>>
<<snippity>> Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him.<<snip-snip>>


So are you implying that mgr believed that whoever has the holy spirit were/are one in the same?

That would mean that blacks, asians, hispanics and so on could all be a part

That being the case, why aren't blacks, asians, hispanics welcomed in molokan churches today?

Molokans are a cultural group made of Russian people. The distinction that you are talking about is racial. There are Asian Molokans, Arab (if you want to call that a race), and Caucasian. If we start naming names of who is what, people will likely get offended. Nevertheless, God made cultural groups as well as races. As a cultural group, we have a cohesiveness attributable to our Russian heritage.

We do have hispanic Molokans. There are some Molokans who are from Russian extraction who emigrated to Mexico, Panama, and elsewhere in the Latin World. Many of those speak Spanish quite well. However, they still have a Russian cultural group, and not just a Russian, but a Molokan heritage.

So you saying that a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, (1Corithians 6:19 NLT)

Where are you getting that interpretation from what I posted? I said that Molokans are a cultural group. There are many cultural groups throughout the world. Each has their own way of doing things and each should continue doing things the way that they have. I personally can't stand Chinese food. I don't think there is anything innately wrong with the Chinese culture. They like Chinese food, they like dragons, they like fireworks in January. I'm sure that there are Chinese people who accept the Holy Spirit and who are believers. I believe that they should remain Chinese and do their Chinese things and stick to their Chinese brethren, but in effect we are all in the same Church, the Woman Clothed in the Sun. This is what I believe is meant by when Jesus said that Our Father has a big mansion with many rooms. It's all the same house, just the Chinese are with the Chinese, the Molokans are with the Molokans, the Latinos are with the Latinos, etc.

I'm asking you a question that requires a yes or no answer

Would a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians--you are one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28 NLT)
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#63 EGK

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 12:03 AM

EGK,

I'm not exactly sure what you are thinking, but in response to the quote you posted, those who have been born from above have the Spirit of the Living God in them. If you look at verse 38, it says "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him." The God of the Living is the God that has as His people those who have been born of the Spirit, for until you are born of the Spirit, you are amongst the dead.

The Church of the Living God is known as the Woman in Sun Garments, which is the ultimate radiance of light surrounding her. Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church. What it looks like you were pointing to was about where Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him. Presumably, if you let it, it can dwell within each of us. It does not make him any more special than anyone else. I have heard another prophet speak in similar terms. It is a prophetic way of speaking about communion in the Holy Spirit.



My dear brother Mitrovich:

Yes, sometimes I do not even know what I am thinking! Also thank you for bringing in verse 38, wonderful words to share, but it did not pertain to what was going on in my foggy old brain at the time. I am also sorry that I have never heard of the Church of the woman in the sun garments? Is this something that is new-age?
My dear brother, I was pointing to something MGR had in sevens and that was wives and not churches. If you check in the S&L on page 587, the first paragraph, first line reads,"Or a lasting reproach for all of my new wives(Churches)",Etc. You will notice that (Churches) is not in the original manuscripts but something added by the editors. I also have in a Living Bible this same thing being done, an insertion by the editors. Mark 7 verse 19," For food doesn't come in contact with your heart, but only passes through the digestive system."(By saying this he showed that every kind of food is kosher.) Well, if we are to accept all of the editor insertions, than call me and we can share a few pork chops and talk about a few beautiful wives together!
I personally do not accept the editor insertions in either book, for this is man's insertions and not that of the original author. I Thank you and always appreciate a view of an issue which is not the same as mine, for this I pray is how we will all grow into what will be acceptable to our Lord, Jesus Christ!

#64 Mitrovitch

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 12:38 PM

The Church of the Living God is known as the Woman in Sun Garments.
See Revelations 12.

You poke fun: "I am also sorry that I have never heard of the Church of the woman in the sun garments? Is this something that is new-age? " However, that doesn't take away from the fact that the Woman Clothed in the Sun, or how I said that she has Sun Garments on, is the true Church.

You would like to say that MGR was a polygamist, but when and where do you surmise that he got married to these other seven women? He names these other women, but why does not include the wife he had children with in that list? He only had one physical wife, but who are these other "Women" that he writes about? Mind you, he was imprisoned for about 20 years and he does not write about other wives prior to his imprisonment. So, with the knowledge of the true church being known as the Woman Clothed in the Sun, does it not make sense to you that the women he writes about are Churches?

#65 EGK

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 11:03 PM

The Church of the Living God is known as the Woman in Sun Garments.
See Revelations 12.

You poke fun: "I am also sorry that I have never heard of the Church of the woman in the sun garments? Is this something that is new-age? " However, that doesn't take away from the fact that the Woman Clothed in the Sun, or how I said that she has Sun Garments on, is the true Church.

You would like to say that MGR was a polygamist, but when and where do you surmise that he got married to these other seven women? He names these other women, but why does not include the wife he had children with in that list? He only had one physical wife, but who are these other "Women" that he writes about? Mind you, he was imprisoned for about 20 years and he does not write about other wives prior to his imprisonment. So, with the knowledge of the true church being known as the Woman Clothed in the Sun, does it not make sense to you that the women he writes about are Churches?




My Dear Brother Mitrovich:

I deeply ask for forgiveness for poking fun, it was terribly insensitive of me and I do humbly apologize! Please forgive an old man his short comings!
Yes, I do also agree that the Church is represented in Revelations as a WOMAN. She is the spouse of Christ our Lord, clothed in the sun of righteousness ( Jesus Christ) in which she shines with righteousness.
As to calling MGR a polygamist, no I would not do that, lecherous comes more to my mind. Page 593, SL first verse "From the beginning, how they all came to know me: With them at that time I was publicly wedded by God Himself, by the Spirit of Christ and with His blessing,)". If these wives are churches and he was married to them by God almighty himself then why did the first seven leave him? Why did he have so much trouble with women leaving him not only the seven but others? Also why did he have to choose new ones, were not the first ones given to him by God himself? Page 591 Article 2 number one, " Now I must gather another seven new wives from those select, chaste young women and who will never recognize another husband but me." So far thats 14 plus churches!!
I must confess my opinion on this subject is jaded by the family geneology of the Klubnikin family, the writings of the historian Dingel'shtedt and copies of the edited out passages of the the original writings of MGR, also from many family stories told to me as a child from elders who came from Russia. But most of all being one of his accursed puts a bounty upon my head, Page 593 line 8-9.

EGK

#66 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 04:54 AM

<<snippage>>
Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church.  <<snippage again>>
<<snippity>> Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him.<<snip-snip>>


So are you implying that mgr believed that whoever has the holy spirit were/are one in the same?

That would mean that blacks, asians, hispanics and so on could all be a part

That being the case, why aren't blacks, asians, hispanics welcomed in molokan churches today?

Molokans are a cultural group made of Russian people. The distinction that you are talking about is racial. There are Asian Molokans, Arab (if you want to call that a race), and Caucasian. If we start naming names of who is what, people will likely get offended. Nevertheless, God made cultural groups as well as races. As a cultural group, we have a cohesiveness attributable to our Russian heritage.

We do have hispanic Molokans. There are some Molokans who are from Russian extraction who emigrated to Mexico, Panama, and elsewhere in the Latin World. Many of those speak Spanish quite well. However, they still have a Russian cultural group, and not just a Russian, but a Molokan heritage.

So you saying that a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, (1Corithians 6:19 NLT)

Where are you getting that interpretation from what I posted? I said that Molokans are a cultural group. There are many cultural groups throughout the world. Each has their own way of doing things and each should continue doing things the way that they have. I personally can't stand Chinese food. I don't think there is anything innately wrong with the Chinese culture. They like Chinese food, they like dragons, they like fireworks in January. I'm sure that there are Chinese people who accept the Holy Spirit and who are believers. I believe that they should remain Chinese and do their Chinese things and stick to their Chinese brethren, but in effect we are all in the same Church, the Woman Clothed in the Sun. This is what I believe is meant by when Jesus said that Our Father has a big mansion with many rooms. It's all the same house, just the Chinese are with the Chinese, the Molokans are with the Molokans, the Latinos are with the Latinos, etc.

I'm asking you a question that requires a yes or no answer

Would a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians--you are one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28 NLT)

What about an answer here, mitrovich?
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#67 Mitrovitch

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 10:53 AM

<<snippage>>
Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church.  <<snippage again>>
<<snippity>> Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him.<<snip-snip>>


So are you implying that mgr believed that whoever has the holy spirit were/are one in the same?

That would mean that blacks, asians, hispanics and so on could all be a part

That being the case, why aren't blacks, asians, hispanics welcomed in molokan churches today?

Molokans are a cultural group made of Russian people. The distinction that you are talking about is racial. There are Asian Molokans, Arab (if you want to call that a race), and Caucasian. If we start naming names of who is what, people will likely get offended. Nevertheless, God made cultural groups as well as races. As a cultural group, we have a cohesiveness attributable to our Russian heritage.

We do have hispanic Molokans. There are some Molokans who are from Russian extraction who emigrated to Mexico, Panama, and elsewhere in the Latin World. Many of those speak Spanish quite well. However, they still have a Russian cultural group, and not just a Russian, but a Molokan heritage.

So you saying that a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, (1Corithians 6:19 NLT)

Where are you getting that interpretation from what I posted? I said that Molokans are a cultural group. There are many cultural groups throughout the world. Each has their own way of doing things and each should continue doing things the way that they have. I personally can't stand Chinese food. I don't think there is anything innately wrong with the Chinese culture. They like Chinese food, they like dragons, they like fireworks in January. I'm sure that there are Chinese people who accept the Holy Spirit and who are believers. I believe that they should remain Chinese and do their Chinese things and stick to their Chinese brethren, but in effect we are all in the same Church, the Woman Clothed in the Sun. This is what I believe is meant by when Jesus said that Our Father has a big mansion with many rooms. It's all the same house, just the Chinese are with the Chinese, the Molokans are with the Molokans, the Latinos are with the Latinos, etc.

I'm asking you a question that requires a yes or no answer

Would a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians--you are one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28 NLT)

What about an answer here, mitrovich?

I will not be answering your question any more than I have already because the tone of your question is framed in racist terms and I refuse to denegrade myself to being a racist. Molokans are a cultural group.

Now, it appears your question is leading toward whether non-molokan, non-Russians would be permitted to adopt Molokan views and beliefs and, for lack of a better term, convert to the Molokan form of Christianity. That experiment was attempted in Oregon and didn't have much success, most probably because the Molokan way is quite different from the American way of doing things. If the goal is to bring more people into our church and your goal is to have those people who are brought in be non-Molokans who don't want to learn the language, adopt the culture, adopt the form of worship, and adopt the history, then your goal is to dilute our culture, essentially disintegrating our way of life, under the guise of "Renovation."

Why not set up a hispanic church that believes the way we do, but gets together and eats enchaladas and maybe has a mariachi band to sing praises? I wouldn't want to go to that type of church, but I'm sure Mexicans would love it.

You can also help start a small Vietnamese church that they get together and eat Spring rolls and have a 49th day pominki.

You can also establish a Black church that gathers in small groups who believes like us who dresses in bright colored clothes and sings with the Holy Spirit (oh wait, they already have that).

#68 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 12:13 PM

<<snippage>>
Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church.  <<snippage again>>
<<snippity>> Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him.<<snip-snip>>


So are you implying that mgr believed that whoever has the holy spirit were/are one in the same?

That would mean that blacks, asians, hispanics and so on could all be a part

That being the case, why aren't blacks, asians, hispanics welcomed in molokan churches today?

Molokans are a cultural group made of Russian people. The distinction that you are talking about is racial. There are Asian Molokans, Arab (if you want to call that a race), and Caucasian. If we start naming names of who is what, people will likely get offended. Nevertheless, God made cultural groups as well as races. As a cultural group, we have a cohesiveness attributable to our Russian heritage.

We do have hispanic Molokans. There are some Molokans who are from Russian extraction who emigrated to Mexico, Panama, and elsewhere in the Latin World. Many of those speak Spanish quite well. However, they still have a Russian cultural group, and not just a Russian, but a Molokan heritage.

So you saying that a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, (1Corithians 6:19 NLT)

Where are you getting that interpretation from what I posted? I said that Molokans are a cultural group. There are many cultural groups throughout the world. Each has their own way of doing things and each should continue doing things the way that they have. I personally can't stand Chinese food. I don't think there is anything innately wrong with the Chinese culture. They like Chinese food, they like dragons, they like fireworks in January. I'm sure that there are Chinese people who accept the Holy Spirit and who are believers. I believe that they should remain Chinese and do their Chinese things and stick to their Chinese brethren, but in effect we are all in the same Church, the Woman Clothed in the Sun. This is what I believe is meant by when Jesus said that Our Father has a big mansion with many rooms. It's all the same house, just the Chinese are with the Chinese, the Molokans are with the Molokans, the Latinos are with the Latinos, etc.

I'm asking you a question that requires a yes or no answer

Would a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians--you are one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28 NLT)

What about an answer here, mitrovich?

They are not racist terms at all

Your unwillingness to answer a simple yes or no question is VERY telling

This has nothing to do with race, rather who would be welcomed into a molokan church

You are attempting to blur the line between culture and Christianity

According to Scripture we are all one in Christ, yet you are attempting to dodge the core issue which is that some (NOT ALL) molokans are racists themselves

They would deny Scripture and exclude groups based upon the color of their skin

Your lack of a response and attempt to "spin" the situation at hand indicates that you must agree with the policy of exclusion

I said nothing about mariachi music or spring rolls

Not all hispanics listen to mariachi music or Vietnamese consume spring rolls

Your racist bias is showing by your choice of illustrations

As to them having to adopt language, culture and other aspects of liturgy to be a part is at best a smoke screen on your part to veil a racist core

You are adding to worship by placing upon the people the requirement of language, culture etc...

The pharisees did the same thing to the people

1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
2 "The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the Scriptures.
3 So practice and obey whatever they say to you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach.
4 They crush you with impossible religious demands and never lift a finger to help ease the burden.
5 "Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside,* and they wear extra long tassels on their robes.
6 And how they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the most prominent seats in the synagogue! (Matthew 23:1-6 NLT)


You also mention "chinese with chinese, Latinos are with the Latinos and molokan are with molokans"

I'm sorry, but that is a load of garbage

molokans ARE NOT a race of people

The Bible says we are all one yet you deny Scripture with a closed door policy

Would Jesus be welcomed into a molokan church?

He's not molokan

How about David, Peter, John the Baptist

They are all not molokan

Who is truly welcome?
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#69 Mitrovitch

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:25 PM

<<snippage>>
Even though there are different congregations, there is only one Church.  <<snippage again>>
<<snippity>> Maxim writes about seven churches, which in the Spirit is likened upon a wife because the Holy Spirit that dwells within the members of those Congregations dwelled within him.<<snip-snip>>


So are you implying that mgr believed that whoever has the holy spirit were/are one in the same?

That would mean that blacks, asians, hispanics and so on could all be a part

That being the case, why aren't blacks, asians, hispanics welcomed in molokan churches today?

Molokans are a cultural group made of Russian people. The distinction that you are talking about is racial. There are Asian Molokans, Arab (if you want to call that a race), and Caucasian. If we start naming names of who is what, people will likely get offended. Nevertheless, God made cultural groups as well as races. As a cultural group, we have a cohesiveness attributable to our Russian heritage.

We do have hispanic Molokans. There are some Molokans who are from Russian extraction who emigrated to Mexico, Panama, and elsewhere in the Latin World. Many of those speak Spanish quite well. However, they still have a Russian cultural group, and not just a Russian, but a Molokan heritage.

So you saying that a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

Or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, (1Corithians 6:19 NLT)

Where are you getting that interpretation from what I posted? I said that Molokans are a cultural group. There are many cultural groups throughout the world. Each has their own way of doing things and each should continue doing things the way that they have. I personally can't stand Chinese food. I don't think there is anything innately wrong with the Chinese culture. They like Chinese food, they like dragons, they like fireworks in January. I'm sure that there are Chinese people who accept the Holy Spirit and who are believers. I believe that they should remain Chinese and do their Chinese things and stick to their Chinese brethren, but in effect we are all in the same Church, the Woman Clothed in the Sun. This is what I believe is meant by when Jesus said that Our Father has a big mansion with many rooms. It's all the same house, just the Chinese are with the Chinese, the Molokans are with the Molokans, the Latinos are with the Latinos, etc.

I'm asking you a question that requires a yes or no answer

Would a Christian hispanic, asian or black person would be welcomed at a molokan church as long as they had the Holy Spirit?

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians--you are one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28 NLT)

What about an answer here, mitrovich?

They are not racist terms at all

Your unwillingness to answer a simple yes or no question is VERY telling

This has nothing to do with race, rather who would be welcomed into a molokan church

You are attempting to blur the line between culture and Christianity

According to Scripture we are all one in Christ, yet you are attempting to dodge the core issue which is that some (NOT ALL) molokans are racists themselves

They would deny Scripture and exclude groups based upon the color of their skin

Your lack of a response and attempt to "spin" the situation at hand indicates that you must agree with the policy of exclusion

I said nothing about mariachi music or spring rolls

Not all hispanics listen to mariachi music or Vietnamese consume spring rolls

Your racist bias is showing by your choice of illustrations

As to them having to adopt language, culture and other aspects of liturgy to be a part is at best a smoke screen on your part to veil a racist core

You are adding to worship by placing upon the people the requirement of language, culture etc...

The pharisees did the same thing to the people

1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
2 "The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the Scriptures.
3 So practice and obey whatever they say to you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach.
4 They crush you with impossible religious demands and never lift a finger to help ease the burden.
5 "Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside,* and they wear extra long tassels on their robes.
6 And how they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the most prominent seats in the synagogue! (Matthew 23:1-6 NLT)


You also mention "chinese with chinese, Latinos are with the Latinos and molokan are with molokans"

I'm sorry, but that is a load of garbage

molokans ARE NOT a race of people

The Bible says we are all one yet you deny Scripture with a closed door policy

Would Jesus be welcomed into a molokan church?

He's not molokan

How about David, Peter, John the Baptist

They are all not molokan

Who is truly welcome?

Au contraire mon frair,

My response is by no means racial. I fully agree with you that Molokans are not a race. Neither are Latinos, neither are Chinese. My close friend is Peruvian who tells me about Latinos whose ancestry comes from China, Europe, Africa, etc. Latino means that you adopt the Latin American Culture. Latino means that you ascribe to speaking Spanish and other Latin American attributes. Chinese are not a race, but a culture which ascribes to speaking a dialect of Chinese and the national dialect of Mandarin. Not all of Asia speaks Chinese.

Also, Russia is in Asia and many of us are Asian. Some of my ancestors come from Kazakistan, which is in Northern Asia. There is also a separate and unique Kazakistan culture, but my ancestors did not ascribe to that. They ascribed to the Russian culture and, more specifically, the Molokan culture.

I am about as far from being racist as anyone can really get. I have been prophesied to by a Black minister. I tested the Spirit of the minister and found him to be genuine and accepted the message from him. He has his congregation, I go to mine. We share the same Spirit, just not the same congregation.

John 14:2 - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

You asked if Jesus, David, Peter, and John the Baptist would be welcomed into a Molokan church? Well, lets be realistic here. All of those individuals have died and gone away. To be honest, if a Jewish man came into most Molokan churches, he would be welcomed enough to sit in the back, but would not be invited to join. It is a simple case of xenophobia. If the Jewish man adopted Molokan culture and form of worship and showed himself to be an honorable member of society and of our brotherhood, then I don’t see any reason not to allow him in. It has been done with this exact same scenario.

The question to you, though, would be if Mohammed, Lao Tzu, or a Hindu yogi came into your church, would you accept him?

It is not racist to say that God has separated people for a reason. He will keep them separated in the hereafter. God foretold that at the end of time there would still be separate Peoples, with differences amongst them.

Revelations 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Then again God commanded to prophecy to different cultures:

Revelations 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

I don’t see anywhere that we are to assimilate them into our tribe, just to go prophecy to them.

I do believe that we should help all types of people. I was recently speaking with an elder who grew up in Arizona in it’s heyday and said that the Molokan church in Arizona gave charity to the Indians. They helped the general community regularly. I also know of one elder from Freeway Church who used to hand out Turkeys to all of the neighbors on Thanksgiving.
There is a lot of help being given to people in general. These are just two examples. This is not assimilating them into our brotherhood, just a kind helping hand to our neighbors.

#70 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 06:01 PM



Would Jesus be welcomed into a molokan church?

He's not molokan

How about David, Peter, John the Baptist

They are all not molokan

Who is truly welcome?

<<snip>>

You asked if Jesus, David, Peter, and John the Baptist would be welcomed into a Molokan church? Well, lets be realistic here. All of those individuals have died and gone away. <<snip>>


Jesus is dead?
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#71 Mitrovitch

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 02:14 PM



Would Jesus be welcomed into a molokan church?

He's not molokan

How about David, Peter, John the Baptist

They are all not molokan

Who is truly welcome?

<<snip>>

You asked if Jesus, David, Peter, and John the Baptist would be welcomed into a Molokan church? Well, lets be realistic here. All of those individuals have died and gone away. <<snip>>


Jesus is dead?

Yes, Jesus died.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

#72 seeking_truth_1

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 06:33 PM



Would Jesus be welcomed into a molokan church?

He's not molokan

How about David, Peter, John the Baptist

They are all not molokan

Who is truly welcome?

<<snip>>

You asked if Jesus, David, Peter, and John the Baptist would be welcomed into a Molokan church? Well, lets be realistic here. All of those individuals have died and gone away. <<snip>>


Jesus is dead?

Yes, Jesus died.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

Again...

Is Jesus dead? (Note the tense)

Use the the active present tense

Please, do not sit smug in thinking I glommed on to some minor point that you can quickly dismiss with a glib reply

I asked if Jesus is Dead, not did he die

Please read more carefully

Furthermore, I do have a lengthly reply to the balance of our dialog to try and come to a summary conclusion for the readers

You might want to work on you skills in the interim
**********Disclaimer**********
I wish to set forth that I am not molokan bashing
There are the 3 general groups within the molokan community

Group 1 - Christians: 66 Book, Jesus is fully God AND fully man and He is one of the members of the Tri-Hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). He physically came to Earth and died on the Cross at Calvary for my sin. I cannot earn my way to Heaven by my works. It is by Grace I have been saved. (Reference Ephesians 2:8-10)
Group 2 - Traditionalists: You "make it" to Heaven through a "hodge-podge" of ceremony, works, lineage etc...This group is propagating a lie
Group 3 - Occultists: The 2 book, we're the "New Israel" because God changed His mind about the "old" Israel, we're of the woman of the seed, we have our "special" way to Heaven by MGR as our "new christ" + ceremony, works, lineage but when asked we cannot explain but will attempt to blame the "ecumenical 666 church" for something. This group is also propagating a lie

I have no doctrinal issues with Group 1. How can I? However, I do STRONGLY suggest anyone who is actively participating in the cult of molokanism to leave. They need to find a Bible teaching Church home and maybe view molokan cult meeting attendance as an outreach ministry. The cult of molokanism CANNOT be Church for the Christian

Traditionalists have replaced Jesus with ceremony, works, lineage etc...

Occultists have replaced Jesus with mgr/S & L

When I speak about molokans, the majority of the time, I'm referring to groups 2 & 3

We're not trying to prove all molokan's Scripturally incorrect rather, we are engaging groups 2 & 3 in the light of Scripture
**********End Disclaimer**********

#73 Mitrovitch

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 02:16 PM



Would Jesus be welcomed into a molokan church?

He's not molokan

How about David, Peter, John the Baptist

They are all not molokan

Who is truly welcome?

<<snip>>

You asked if Jesus, David, Peter, and John the Baptist would be welcomed into a Molokan church? Well, lets be realistic here. All of those individuals have died and gone away. <<snip>>


Jesus is dead?

Yes, Jesus died.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

Again...

Is Jesus dead? (Note the tense)

Use the the active present tense

Please, do not sit smug in thinking I glommed on to some minor point that you can quickly dismiss with a glib reply

I asked if Jesus is Dead, not did he die

Please read more carefully

Furthermore, I do have a lengthly reply to the balance of our dialog to try and come to a summary conclusion for the readers

You might want to work on you skills in the interim

First of all, Seeking Truth, Peace be unto you.

Your question is so fundamental and so basic that I did not quite understand what you really mean. Everyone here believes that Jesus died by crucifixion, the earth trembled, the sky grew dark, the temple collapsed, the dead arose, Jesus was wrapped up in burial clothes, laid to rest in the tomb of his uncle, three days later another earthquake rolled the rock out from the entrance of the tomb, and then he appeared before the 10 Disciples (Judas had already hung himself and Thomas wasn’t around).

We read these verses every year during Paska and periodically when the topic comes up. Jesus was resurrected and went away (i.e. ascended). That is what I wrote. That is what I meant. I don’t know why you would possibly infer that I meant anything different.

We also read Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Jesus was not the first to be resurrected (Lazarus, among others) and was not the last. To say that he was risen from the dead is a given.

Matthew 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Luke 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, 34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

If you are saying that Jesus is around, then you are professing that the second coming of Christ is now. If that is the case, please share.

#74 fourvetta

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 12:26 PM

There is a difference from the "crucified Christ" and the "resurrected Christ."

The Christian world today worships the "crucified Christ" who died and still hangs on the cross.

In other words, a "dead Christ" who has not, the power of the resurrection.

Christ said, "My flesh profits Me nothing. It is the Spirit that gives life." He Himself died according to the flesh and was raised up again by the Spirit.

The Apostle says, "If we rely only upon the name of Christ in this life, we are most unfortunate among all men."

But the Spiritual Christian who is called New Israel worships the "Resurrected Christ," as Christ said, "I shall be with you in spirit unto the end of the age."

He walks among two or three who are gathered in His Name. Under the banner of the Seven Spirits of God. Rev. 5:6

#75 Nick Shubin

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 07:17 PM

The Apostle says, "If we rely only upon the name of Christ in this life, we are most unfortunate among all men."

And where might we find this quote?
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:13



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