History

[ligonier 0]

Following are some historical facts, reprinted from a book entitled "Na Ghorakh", written by P. I. Melnikov, Second Edition, Fifth Volume, St. Petersburg, 1909.

(Translated from the original Russian)

 

 

God's People, or the Khlysty, as they are usually called among the people, believe that it is possible, in a direct, immediate connection, to always communicate the human soul with divinity. Being similar to the Dukhabors, they preach that the physical incarnation of Christ permanently and perpetually dwells on earth. This sect cannot even be considered as a denomination that is part of the Christian heresy. (Part 3, Page 225)

 

The stories of God's People (the Khlysty) continue... about those christs who existed previously and now, about those christs who continue to walk the earth. Stories are heard how they (these christs) were imprisoned and how in Moscow they were crucified, but how on the third day they resurrected. It is heard that now, at the foot of Mount Ararat, lives a new christ, Makcim, who is regarded as a prophet, high priest and the king of God's People (the Khlysty).... (Part 3, Page 264)

 

For several consecutive years, Igor Sergeyevitch travelled, going to central Russia, then to the Volga region, then to new Russia, even going to Siberia and abroad to Moldavia. Everywhere he went, he became acquainted with the People of God (the Khlysty) and before he returned, while he was in the Transcaucases, he became acquainted there with the "Visionaries", or better known by the name the "Jumpers".

 

(to be continued)

[ligonier 0]

(continuation) 2

 

 

The Visionaries. They called only themselves by this name because they were convinced that they visualized the Holy Spirit. They also called themselves the "spiritual". Because of the fact that the Visionaries take part in a physical manifestation of spirit, like the Khlysty, and also because they make believe as if they "visualize the spirit" or spirits, the outsiders call them (the Visionaries) "Jumpers" and "Shakers". This sect, a blend of the teachings and practices of the Molokans mixed with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty, arose among those who were banished to the Transcaucases together with the Molokans from the Milky Water region. They (the Visionaries) consider their founder to be Lukian Sokoloff. The biggest part of the Jumper sect lives in the village of Nikitino, close to Alexandropol. They are also found in the region of Erevan, in the Lenkoransko region and in other areas of the Transcaucases. The successor of Sokoloff was Makcim Rudometkin, or Komar, who was regarded as a christ, prophet, high priest and king of the "spiritual" (the Jumpers or Visionaries). He was triumphantly and pompously coronated in the village of Nikitino--(That is, this new sect is altogether different and separate from the original Molokans who call themselves "True Spiritual Christians".)

 

The people from the Lupovits region impatiently waited for the return of Igor Sergeyevitch. He travelled from the foot of Mount Ararat, from the places near the upper regions of the Euphrates River, where, before the beginning of creation, God's earthly paradise was planted and where, according to how the People of God (the Khlysty) believe, God will open up anew for the glorious existence of the holy righteous, for the everlasting service of their God and Lamb. The news reached the Lupovits region that there, at the foot of Mount Ararat, appeared a king, prophet and high priest who was triumphantly and pompously coronated and who, having clothed himself in royal purple, along with other distinguishing royal attire, he put on a crown and , in imitation of King David, with a harp in hand, danced and jumped among a large throng of people on the broad street of the village of Nikitino. The news also reached the Lupovits region that this King Komar (Rudometkin) saved aside the wife to whom he was legally married and he took himself an additional "spiritual" wife. It was explained that all the "holy men" from the Mount Ararat region had "Spiritual" wives. Some had one, others had two and still others had three "spiritual" wives. (Part 3, Page 119)

 

 

(to be continued)

[ligonier 0]

(continuation) 3

 

 

Lukian Peter Sokoloff. He was a Molokan from the settlement of Lalamatin, in the county of Kamishinska, in the state of Saratov, who, yet from the year of 1836, while living in the Milky Water region, began to concentrate his efforts to blend and mix the teachings and practices of the Molokans with the teachings and practices of the Khlysty, but he did not have any success there with his mystical teachings and enthusiastic ceremonies. It is unknown where Sokoloff then left to but it is said that he possibly went to Moldavia. In 1836, when the people in the Milky Water region awaited the end of the world, there appeared his (Sokoloff's) accomplices (it is unknown who they were), calling themselves the Apocalyptical "Enoch and Elijah". Their boldness reached the point where they even interrupted church services in the Orthodox temple, shouting out during the services and doing different licentious acts. Right after them appeared the Judge of the living and the dead, the christ and prophet, Lukian Sokoloff. More than once, he (Sokoloff) designated the day of fearful judgement, but the archangel's trumpet never did roar, although Sokoloff brought attention to Halley's Comet (which appeared in 1836) and how it was the foreteller of the fact that the end of the world was near. With each night, the comet got brighter and brighter but the people got used to it and in the end, it began to fade away and then Enoch, Elijah and even the Judge, Lukian Sokoloff, vanished to unknown places. Soon he (Sokoloff) appeared in the state of Samaria and there, many Molokans and Khlysty were enticed (by Sokoloff) to the Transcaucases. More than once, he led a crowd of followers by enticing them to the foot of Mount Ararat, returning past the praries of the Volga region for new migrants, but it is unknown what happened to him in the end. Traces of him appeared in Bessarabia. Sokoloff was in Asiatic Turkey and Persia, and from there, he returned to the state of Erevan, where his continued efforts to blend and mix the teachings and practices of the Molokans with the teachings and practices fo the Khlysty produced the separate heresy, the "Jumpers" or "Visionaries". He was especially close with Makcim Komar or Rudometkin, who, it is said, was the first from among the Molokans to participate in the physical manifestation of the Khlysty, (which took place during their special mystical and enthusiastic services called the "radenia"), in the village of Nikitino. It is unknown what happened to Lukian Sokoloff. (Part 3, Pages 295-296)

 

 

Editor's note: The author, P. I. Melnikov, was an atheist who considered Christianity in general, a heresy. He did make the distinction though, through his observations, that Khlysty are not Christians.

 

( to be continued)

[dhshubin 0]

ligonier said

Editor's note: The author, P. I. Melnikov, was an atheist who considered Christianity in general, a heresy. He did make the distinction though, through his observations, that Khlysty are not Christians.

not true, Andrei Pecherski (his pen name) was an Old Believer ( Staro-Ver ) He lived in Moscow and Novgorod, and along the nothern Volga regions, most of his life. He travelled about north-east Russia and compiled information on the various dissenters and sectarians of Russian Christianity. He was highly regarded as an authority on the early Staro-ver movement in Russia, and in his later years compiled 2 books: Na Gorakh, and V Lesakh (and I have read both in Russian) which were written in his later years, developing a historical novel about the Old believers of the northern Volga regions, along with forklore that he acquired. He died in 1883.

 

Because he never travelled out of the regions of north-east European Russia, except for a short employment in St Petersburg with the Department of Internal Affairs, his information on MGR and the Jumpers is not reliable.

 

your translation of visionary is not correct. I will check it and post later.

[ligonier 0]

I thank you for your opinion(s) and your input.

[ligonier 0]

The Khlysty do accept a number of Biblical truths, and will even quote from the Bible to explain some of their basic beliefs, but it is with their extra-Biblical teachings and practices, which contradict the Bible (like accepting different christs and spiritual marriages), that they eliminate themselves from being classified as a true Christian denomination or sect.

 

In his book entitled "Russian Noncomformity" (Page 110), the Russian historian Serge Bolshakoff, writes that in addition to "preserving their own Khlysty features", the new Jumper sect adopted the mystical Khlysty ritual of "sacred dancing and prophesying", and they changed the Khlysty office of "christ", renaming him "czar/king" (as in "Czar Dooghov/King of Spirits").

 

We are able to see that certain facts about L.P. Sokoloff and M.G. Rudometkin are recorded accurately by historians, since in his own writings, found in the book, Spirit and Life, Rudometkin explains how Sokoloff did not have any success in introducing the Khlysty practice of "spiritual marriages" among the True Spiritual Christian Molokan people (Book 9, Article 14, Verses 3-4). Rudometkin, however, does admit to the polygamous and adulterous Khlysty pracitce of having a "spiritual wife", with whom, according to other historical evidence, he fathered a "spirit child" (Book 4, Article 5, Verse 12).

Rudometkin appears to have continued to rule over his followers as their christ/czar-king, even after he has been sent away to prison (Book 4, Article 5, Verse 12).

[coffee 0]

From Danny *****************, about Mel'nikov:

 

"He was highly regarded as an authority on the early Staro-ver movement in Russia...."

 

"Because he never traveled out of the regions of north-east European Russia, except for a short employment in St Petersburg with the Department of Internal Affairs, his information on MGR and the Jumpers is not reliable."

 

 

Danny wants us to believe that Mel'nikov's knowledge of the sectarians, and his contributions to the historical record about the religious sectarians in Russia, was limited to JUST the Old Believers, and that as it pertains to the other sectarians, Danny wants us to believe that Mel'nikov "never" travelled to the places that he wrote about.

 

This of course is inaccurate, and not at all true.

 

In truth, Mel'nikov was considered an authority by his peers with regard to his knowledge about each of the major sectarian groups that surfaced as a result of the "Raskol" (the Great Schism). Mel'nikov's reputation was that of a proponent for going direct to the sectarians that he wrote about, with the purpose of gaining personal firsthand knowledge, in order to be the credible and reliable historian that he indeed was.

 

From Nicolai Dingel'shtedt, in his book entitled "The Transcaucasian Sectarians":

 

The renowned expert of the Russian Schism, Melnikov, says that we must learn about the Raskol through the living manifestations of handed-down beliefs. We must learn the customs of the Raskolniki to find out the view of the different Raskolnik's interpretations of the earthly and spiritual worlds, [by learning] the inner workings of their communities.

 

"We must", Melnikov says, "stand face to face with the Raskolniki and then an analysis is possible..." (P. I. Mel'nikov, from Letters of the Schism, Pgs. 1-15)

 

 

Inspired by Mel'nikov's personal method of gathering historical information, Dingel'shtedt himself did his own "hands on" research for the book that he wrote about the sectarians in the Transcaucasus. Included in his research were personal interviews that he conducted with the villagers in the town of Nikitino, about Rudometkin and the Khlysty/Molokan sect of New Israel Jumpers and Leapers.

 

 

More from Danny *****************, about Mel'nikov:

 

"....and in his later years compiled 2 books: Na Gorakh, and V Lesakh (and I have read both in Russian)...."

 

"your translation of visionary is not correct."

 

 

Like Danny, in addition to several others who my wife and I know personally from among our own "Persian Molokans", I have also had the opportunity to read both of Mel'nikov's books. Sometime during the year 1983, I acquired the copy that I currently have of "Na Gorakh", printed in Russian, from a small university in Pennsylvania.

 

According to what Ligonier posted about Lukian Petrovitch Sokoloff's sect, the name that has been translated as "Visionaries" from the Russian term, "Vie - den - tsie", is accurate, and in context. This word could also be translated as "Visualizers", but the fact that Mel'nikov states this sect was more commonly known as "Jumpers" is not only accurate, but proves that Mel'nikov's method of gathering information was indeed thorough, credible and reliable.

 

From Ligonier's post, pertaining to Mel'nikov's conclusions about the Khlysty:

 

This sect cannot even be considered as a denomination that is part of the Christian heresy. (Part 3, Page 225)

 

 

Although it is generally accepted that Mel'nikov was born and raised to be of Old Believer heritage (the "Starie Verie"), he did not claim allegiance to any specific religious group during his later adult years. Especially as it applied to the extremes he observed with the multiple differences among the various belief systems in Russia, and the efforts of the individual sectarian groups themselves to each be the "true" followers of Jesus, Mel'nikov eventually came to the point in his life that he referred to Christianity in general as "the Christian heresy", which is the term he used when he wrote "Na Gorakh".

 

Danny *****************, with the typical arrogance of any front row Rudometkinite elder, seems to want to question the "credibility", "reliability" and "accuracy" of certain Russian historians, yet he conducts himself as if he is above reproach for the outright dishonesty that he has published in his own English translations of the Spirit and Life book.

 

Those readers who have Danny's 1983 edition of his English translation of the Spirit and Life book are encouraged to compare that version with Danny's recent 2005 edition.

 

Danny and his fellow Rudometkinites have been saying for years that what is found written in the Spirit and Life book has all been inspired by God, by the very "spirit" that inspired Rudometkin and Klubnikin to write what they did, including the very illustrations that those men were inspired to draw.

 

On Page 249, Page 253 and Page 762 of the 1983 version of Danny's book, we find several illustrations, each one displaying a woman with naked breasts. In each case, Rudometkin has made it a point to include the woman's nipples, in such detail that most Bible based Christian women today would consider to be crude, offensive and pornographic.

 

According to what Rudometkin's followers have stated, these illustrations were all inspired by God, including those depicting Rudometkin's version of his "Woman Clothed With The Sun".

 

However, on those same corresponding pages in Danny's 2005 version, these illustrations have all been modified to cover up the naked breasts.

 

If Danny ***************** is to be considered "reliable" with regard to his presentation of what has been allegedly inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, and if he is to be respected as someone who is concerned about the "accuracy" of his information, and sharing the "true" context of what Rudometkin indeed wrote, why the cover-up?

 

Why not leave the illustrations exactly as Rudometkin was inspired to draw them in his own original hand, and let the readers see for themselves what kind of deep spiritual mysteries there are to be discovered in the Spirit and Life book?

 

From Rudometkin:

 

Or an everlasting reproach for all of my new wives, the ones who did not observe the spiritual union with me that was intended by God for my everlasting covenant with them, and the seed of immortality in common with all of us together for an entire thousand years. Amen. (Page 587, Book 14, beginning paragraph)

 

 

On Page 587 of his English translation, Danny perpetuates the very lie that the first immigrant followers of Rudometkin committed, when they inserted into parenthesis the word ("churches") after Rudometkin's specific reference to his "new wives". This is as dishonest as Bill Clinton denying that he ever had sexual relations with Monica Lewinski.

 

The truth is that in Rudometkin's original manuscripts, Rudometkin was writing about seven young women whom he had chosen to be his "additional" wives, as in adultery and polygamy, NOT the dishonest and "sanitized" version of "churches".

 

So, according to Danny *****************, who has presented himself as this allegedly accurate, reliable and credible editor of the English translation of the Spirit and Life book, the seven wives on Page 587 were churches (wink, wink), who on the next page, in entry VII, mixed in harlotry with the "sons of the devil", who made love to them, these churches (wink, wink), as they please.

 

Yet Danny continues to perpetuate this shameful dishonesty, printing on Page 591 that because of the disobedience of these wives ["churches"] (wink, wink) described on Page 587, Rudometkin intended to select seven new "wives" (curiously, no alleged "churches" inserted into parenthesis this time), from select, chaste virgins. And then Danny wants to start pointing fingers at others, with intentions of dismissing their "reliability" as a source of historical truth?

 

From Danny *****************:

 

These pages are the completed efforts of ***** H. ***************** to compare and correct the published writings of the prophet Maxim Gabrilich (a typo - Danny meant to say "Gavrilich") Rudometkin with the existing available original manuscripts, in order that a complete error-free copy would exist for those desiring to read and study. (DHS) September 1971

 

 

This is what Danny typed on the beginning page on my copy of the manuscript that he put together before he was even married, before his reputation as a front row Rudometkinite church elder was ever at stake. Danny has purposefully chosen never to make public this little known project of his. One will never find Danny offering this as one of his free publications, in PDF format over the internet, like he has done with his other work.

 

Throughout his 1971 project, Danny has inserted the actual Russian words that were originally written by Rudometkin, in context, wherever such words were later either omitted outright, or intentionally altered so as to give an altogether different meaning in the Spirit and Life book by Danny and his fellow Rudometkinites .

 

As Danny states in the beginning, his purpose was to recreate, or "piece back together", Rudometkin's original writings as they were initially intended, in the proper sequence and order of how they were originally written, including all of the segments of Rudometkin's so-called "God breathed" writings that were edited out, or altered, by the first immigrant generation of Rudometkinites who had settled in Arizona, in the early 1900s.

 

If Danny is so concerned about the "accuracy" of the historical record, why did he not put back all of the portions that were edited out of Rudometkin's originals, which he obviously knew about, when he decided to publish his first edition of his English translation of the Spirit and Life book, in 1983?

 

If Danny is so concerned about the "reliability" of what has been written to be a "true" representation of the historical record, why did he not publish the "complete" honest and accurate version of what Rudometkin wrote to his followers, allegedly by inspiration of the purported Holy Spirit? Why did Danny ***************** not restore Rudometkin's writings in his English translation of the Spirit and Life book to match exactly what Rudometkin truly wrote in his original writings?

 

I do not remember Danny ***************** being such a grouch during our younger years of knowing each other. I am of the opinion that the reason Danny is so cranky and irritable in many of his responses to others here on the internet is because he is carrying a lot of guilt, knowing that there are others alive today who have intimate knowledge that his English translations of the Spirit and Life book are a dishonest representation of history, as it pertains to Makcim Ghavrilovitch Rudometkin.

 

Some of the "others" who are intimately knowledgeable include the late John Karnoff and George *****************, who both refused to continue assisting Danny with his first English translation project, over the issue of Danny's dishonesty and Danny's perpetuation of heresy. John Karnoff died several years ago from cancer, but George *****************, who refers to Danny as "Dan" *****************, is very much alive and well, and living in Woodburn, Oregon. George is not at all shy about telling the truth about Danny's dishonesty, and why he, George, refused to continue assisting Danny with his initial English translation project.

 

To the silent readers, those for whom it is important to include the name of "Molokan" as part your religious identity, to those who observe and read the contents of what is posted here on these internet forums, but who choose not to participate, the decision needs to be made with regard to what you will allow to be included in your worship of God.

 

Do you worship God the Father in spirit and in truth, as a Bible only Christian, or do you turn a blind eye to the dishonesty about Rudometkin, and continue to allow the heresy of the Spirit and Life book to be part of your "Molokan" belief system.

 

Those of you who have children of marriageable age, a decision needs to be made with regard to who you will allow your children to associate with, and whether you are willing to gamble having your Bible based Molokan Christian child unequally yoked with someone who, even though they might also consider themselves to be "Molokan", has been raised to be zealously faithful to Rudometkin's heresies in the Spirit and Life book.

 

Consider the sincere religious people who Jesus speaks about in the Bible, in His message to the people in Luke 13:22-30. The "narrow way" has room for only one "Lord", for only one "King", and that is Jesus. There is no room for the Lord Jesus Christ AND another.

 

 

 

From Rudometkin, as written in the Spirit and Life book:

 

For this you will be rewarded by me with eternal life (be given eternal life by Rudometkin), and the Kingdom of peace of our Lord Jesus Christ, upon this good land for a thousand years. (Verse 5)

 

Moreover, you will truly be given all of this from me, if only you justly fulfill my will (be given eternal life from Rudometkin if you fulfill the will of Rudometkin) in the Spirit. (Verse 6)

 

(Page 352, Book 6, Article 17, Verses 5-6)

 

 

 

From the Bible:

 

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe.

 

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

 

I give them eternal life (the Lord Jesus Christ gives eternal life), and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:25-30)

[anonymous 0]

RE: Spiritual marriages

 

The historians only confirm what mgr himself disclosed in his memoirs.

 

Example:

 

“It is also necessary to remind you, my beloved wives, Marafina and Sterafina, that you are my own bone and flesh. God has joined us and no man can separate us. Stand upon this foundation. I am your eternal husband. Seek in no one else a husband for yourself. Where can you find anyone who can separate our eternal wedlock, inspired union and my precious love? Would he escape alive from my flaming hot jealousy over you, which you yourselves heard with your own ears? I said unto you in Alexanderpol, before all the people, that you are my wives. Because I was twice born, I married twice. I showed you to all the people saying, ‘This is my first wife, named Marafina, and this is my second wife, named Sterafina.’ I said this by inspiration and not of myself. You must remember this and tell all others about it. You are to say, ‘We are his wives eternally and his queens for the grace-filled 1000-year kingdom of Christ on earth.’ Not man, but God himself shall reveal, throughout every place under heaven, this, our new enlightenment” (mg - book 4, article 11, from the beginning)

 

mgr writes that his marriage to these two women (plural), Marafina and Sterafina, one of whom mitrovitch pointed out was mgr’s one and only wife (Marafina), was “by inspiration” and “not of himself.”

 

In one of his posts, mitrovitch suggested reading mgr’s memoirs as though mgr “is speaking on behalf of the Holy Spirit” as the prophets did.

 

Giving mitrovitch the benefit of the doubt here, that knowing what he knows from THE HOLY SCRIPTURES regarding JESUS’ teachings on marriage which teachings were transmitted to HIS apostles, who, inspired by THE HOLY SPIRIT, echo HIS teachings, we must ask the question, under whose “inspiration” and in behalf of which “spirit” did mgr write what he wrote in the above paragraph?

 

Is mgr speaking “in behalf of the Holy Spirit,” or, not?

 

mitrovitch also stated that the “little voice” within mgr was “the real Word of God.”

 

molokan.net

Faith Discussion Group

Response to Dan ***************** thread

Posted:  October 11, 2005, 04:01 PM

Sticks and Stones. Sticks and Stones.

 

You think that you have it all figured out and that you have God defined how you want and that you have God in this little box and as long as He stays there, you are comfortable with yourself and with your “faith”. The problem is that God is much larger than you can conceive, but to understand Him is to understand the Spirit. To define God with your verses and chapters is belittling to the Almighty. Scriptures are good for understanding how to listen to the real Word of God, that little voice inside of those who have been born from on high. That is the same voice that Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jesus, and Maxim had in them.

 

Again, let us read what the "little voice" within mgr inspired him to write.

 

“It is also necessary to remind you, my beloved wives, Marafina and Sterafina, that you are my own bone and flesh. God has joined us and no man can separate us. Stand upon this foundation. I am your eternal husband. Seek in no one else a husband for yourself. Where can you find anyone who can separate our eternal wedlock, inspired union and my precious love? Would he escape alive from my flaming hot jealousy over you, which you yourselves heard with your own ears? I said unto you in Alexanderpol, before all the people, that you are my wives. Because I was twice born, I married twice. I showed you to all the people saying, ‘This is my first wife, named Marafina, and this is my second wife, named Sterafina.’ I said this by inspiration and not of myself. You must remember this and tell all others about it. You are to say, ‘We are his wives eternally and his queens for the grace-filled 1000-year kingdom of Christ on earth.’ Not man, but God himself shall reveal, throughout every place under heaven, this, our new enlightenment” (mg - book 4, article 11, from the beginning)

 

---Now let us take a look at what JESUS, THE WORD OF GOD WHO IS GOD, taught regarding marriage:

 

“And HE left there and went to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan, and crowds gathered to HIM again. And again, as was HIS custom, HE taught them.

 

And Pharisees came up and in order to test HIM asked, ‘Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?’ HE answered them, ‘What did Moses command you?’ They said, ‘Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce and to send her away.’ And JESUS SAID to them, ‘Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, ‘GOD made them male and female.’ Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore GOD has joined together let not man separate.’ And in the house the disciples asked HIM again about this matter. And HE SAID to them, ‘Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery’” (Mark 10:1-12).

 

---And what Apostle Paul, reiterating JESUS’ teachings, taught regarding marriage:

 

“Oh do you not know, brothers---for I am speaking to those who know the law---that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law; and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress” (Romans 7:1-3).

 

“Let brotherly love continue. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them; and those who are ill-treated, since you also are in the body. Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; for GOD will judge the immoral and adulterous. Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have; for he has said, "I will never fail you nor forsake you." Hence we can confidently say, "THE LORD is my HELPER, I will not be afraid; what can man do to me?" (Hebrews 13:1-6)

 

“The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does” (1 Corinthians 7:3-4).

 

---And to those who are already married and unequally yoked, that is, when one spouse convert(ed) to CHRISTianity and became/becomes a believer, and the other does not.

 

“To the rest I say (I, not THE LORD) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his [believing] wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her [believing] husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved [by the law of marriage]” (1 Corinthians 7:12-15).

 

Does JESUS teach that when a person is “born again,” spiritually (the second birth), he/she should abandon conjugal duties and responsibilities to his/her present spouse, and seek for himself/herself a “spiritual" spouse?

 

NO.

 

Does Apostle Paul teach that when an individual is “born again,” spiritually (the second birth) and becomes a believer, and is already married to an unbeliever, he/she should abandon the unbeliever and seek for himself/herself a “spiritual" spouse?

 

NO.

 

Please NOTE: mgr writes that these wives are his eternal wives and queens, and he is their eternal husband, in JESUS’ [1,000-year] KINGDOM.

 

*****, mitrovitch, prophet, disciple, fourvetta……anyone from mgr’s new Israel jumpers/leapers:

 

Knowing what you know of THE FATHER, THE SON/WORD/JESUS, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, and who will and will not be allowed in HIS KINGDOM, whose “little voice” was mgr listening to when he wrote the above?

 

How do you verify, test whether the “little voice” inside mgr which inspired mgr to write what he wrote, is the Word of God and of the Holy Spirit, or --- not?

 

mgr did say, after all, as he does throughout his memoirs, that what he said and did was “by inspiration” and “not of himself.”

 

And should you contend that mgr is simply stating a SCRIPTURAL spiritual truth a little differently, as mitrovitch mentioned in one of his previous posts regarding mgr’s claims and statements, what SCRIPTURAL spiritual truth is mgr describing in the above paragraph?

 

This question is specifically for ***** *****************:

 

If Maria Feodorovna (the daughter of Feodor) was mgr’s lawfully wedded wife, why, in book 4, article 10, verse 8, does he name his father-in-law Matvey [Mixaelovich]?

 

Being a translator of mgr’s available original manuscripts as well as a lay preacher and teacher of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES for 30 plus years, in addition to being well beyond the bottle, spiritually, perhaps you can share some of your sage spiritual GODly wisdom with us?

 

In the meanwhile,

 

This, and the myriad of perversions which mgr’s memoirs are, reflect the mind/heart of a deceived, confused, sick and tormented soul, who, for all his “spiritual” rhetoric, was in dire need of the very GOD he purported to know.

 

And these perversions, masqueraded as “spirituality,” is what his new Israel jumpers/leapers and their so-called “elders” and members, foolishly embrace as the “celestial depths of the fathomless spiritual concepts of the s&l,” and “speaking in behalf of THE HOLY SPIRIT.”

 

Chip, chip, chisel, chisel, cut, cut, paste, paste……and (re-)constructed with their own hands……new Israel jumpers/leapers’ “holy book.”

 

REMINDER: satan is the father/progenitor of pride, and it is pride which charlatans and suckers for him:

 

"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal GOD for images made to look like mortal man… They exchanged the truth of GOD for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than THE CREATOR… " (Romans 1:22-25).

 

Heaven help them...

[ligonier 0]

Following are some more historical facts, from a book titled “Na Ghorakh”, written by P.I. Melnikov, Second edition, Fifth Volume, St. Petersburg, 1909.

 

And Makcim (Rudometkin) reigned over the “People of God” (Khlysty). On the street of the village of Nikitino, during a ceremony under the open sky, he put on a royal crown, along with a robe of royal purple, and he leaped and danced in the manner of King David, playing music on the stringed organ, and, placing himself as Christ, he (Rudometkin) took upon himself the rank of High Priest and Prophet above all prophets. ( Part 3, Page 291)

 

…and among the sectarians at Mt. Ararat, the Khlysty began to blend and mix together with the Molokans, both rejecting and renouncing the (Russian Orthodox) Church and all of its ceremonies and rituals. From this mixture of Khlysty blended with Molokans, arose, first in the Caucasus, and then in other places in Southern Russia, the sect known as “Visionaries” or “Jumpers” ….and from among the Visionaries appeared a king, prophet and high priest. This king Makcim (Rudometkin) received unlimited authority and domination over the Jumpers, and for the most part, contributed to the blending of the doctrines of the Khlysty with the teachings and practices of the Molokans. It is generally known that he is responsible for changing the old teachings of the Khlysty and for dictating new laws, including the practice of taking a “spiritual wife”. (Part 3, Page 226)

 

And what about “spiritual wives” among the sectarians living at Mt. Ararat ?

This also Makcim (Rudometkin) instituted. Now he has two wives, and others there (among his followers) have three and even more (spiritual wives) …they (his followers) say there (at Mt. Ararat) that “we are the ‘People of God’ (Khlysty), led by the spirit, we are ‘New Israel’, and we conduct ourselves as it was with Israel (Jacob) who had two wives, who were related between themselves as sisters (Leah and Rachel), and, besides that, he (Jacob) had two maidservants (Zilpah and Bilhah), and from all of these four (women) come forth (Genesis 29:14 – Genesis 30:24), equally blessed, the offspring (12 tribes) of Israel (Jacob)”. (Part 3, Page 297)

[Disciple 0]

What do you all think about the fact of the old testament men taking multiple wives and it never ever being brought up as sin? King David took another man's wife and it was sin, but the rest of his wives were not considered so. Not that I am implying anything, but I am wondering why was it never an issue in the scriptures? Thoughts?

[steadfast 0]

What do you all think about the fact of the old testament men taking multiple wives and it never ever being brought up as sin?  King David took another man's wife and it was sin, but the rest of his wives were not considered so.  Not that I am implying anything, but I am wondering why was it never an issue in the scriptures?  Thoughts?

Disciple could this be a clue of some kind?.... Maxim had two physical wives and seven spiritual wives, Brian Mitchell the convicted kidnapping Mormon of Utah had two physical wives and seven spiritual wives.

___________________________________________________

 

One Lord, One Faith, One Book. Eph. 4:5-Heb. 10.7 ;)

[Prophet 0]

What do you all think about the fact of the old testament men taking multiple wives and it never ever being brought up as sin? King David took another man's wife and it was sin, but the rest of his wives were not considered so. Not that I am implying anything, but I am wondering why was it never an issue in the scriptures? Thoughts?

What exactly was David's sin.

 

Was it taking another man's wife?

 

Was it giving orders that the man be put in the front line thus being killed?

 

Or was it taking the census?

[Disciple 0]

Disciple could this be a clue of some kind?....

Nope I don't think it is. I am looking for scripture, just scripture on this subject. It just got me thinking and I wanted to know how you all reconciled these facts with scripture.

[Disciple 0]

What exactly was David's sin. 

 

Was it taking another man's wife?

 

Was it giving orders that the man be put in the front line thus being killed?

 

Or was it taking the census?

Here's your answer.

 

2 Samuel 12:1-9 "And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. 2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: 3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, F61 and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. 4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. 5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: 6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. 7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. 9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon."

[ligonier 0]

What do you all think about the fact of the old testament men taking multiple wives and it never ever being brought up as sin? King David took another man's wife and it was sin, but the rest of his wives were not considered so. Not that I am implying anything, but I am wondering why was it never an issue in the scriptures? Thoughts?

Titus 1:6

 

"An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient."

[Disciple 0]

Titus 1:6

"An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient."

I was talking to my wife about this last night. She asked me if I would want more than one wife, I said no and I brought up this verse. Also when Jesus Christ was questioned about marraige, his answer was simply, "In the beginning God created one man and one woman.

 

But what of my original question concerning the Old Testament patriarchs. Also even this verse commends those who would be elders, and tells us that to be an elder we must be the husband of one wife. Not to be divorced and remarried, or to have more than one wife. But what of the others who are in these situations?

[coffee 0]

Regarding:

 

What do you all think about the fact of the old testament men taking multiple wives and it never ever being brought up as sin?

 

Not that I am implying anything, but I am wondering why was it never an issue in the scriptures?

 

 

From the Lord Jesus Christ:

 

He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

 

and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh'?

 

So they are no longer two but one flesh." (Matthew 19:4-6)

 

 

The message about marriage in the Bible is that God intended one man to be married to one woman, making them husband and wife to each other.

 

From the Bible:

 

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

 

Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife.... (I Timothy 3:1-2)

 

 

Following this are eleven additional requirements that are listed in this same passage from the Scriptures as guidelines for someone who would be an overseer of what the Apostle Paul refers to as "God's church" (in Verse 5). The requirement stated is that the man is to be the husband of only one wife, not many wives.

 

From the Bible:

 

Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. (I Timothy 3:12)

 

 

Again, this repeats the message that from the beginning of creation, God intended marriage to be the union of one man to one woman, making them husband (singular) and wife (singular).

 

These regulations for the overseers and deacons are directed at those who are to be the elders within the church, but it is the very same pattern that has been established by God for anyone who desires to serve the Lord.

 

Sin is defined as disobedience to God. When one disobeys a command or instruction from the Lord, this is sin.

 

Laws Concerning Israel's Kings

 

"When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, 'I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,'

 

you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother.

 

Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, 'You shall never return that way again.'

 

And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold. (Deuteronomy 17:14-17)

 

 

According to what is written in the Bible, when David and Solomon took for themselve multiple wives, as did other kings of Israel, they each sinned in disobedience to the specific commandment from God not to do so.

 

The fact that Rudometkin and his fellow Khlysty referred to the taking of an additional wife as "spiritual marriage", the mechanics of how this was fulfilled still involved physical copulation with one another, with the "spiritual wife" getting physically pregnant, and giving physical birth to a physical child.

 

Because the relationship was between two allegedly "spiritual" people, the sexual intercourse between the "christ/king" and his "spiritual wife" was also considered by the Khlysty to be "spiritual", and the offspring that was produced by such unions was then considered to have been "born of the spirit".

 

The Khlysty term "spiritual marriage" as it relates to the context of how Rudometkin took for himself a "spiritual wife", is not a Biblical concept. It is not found written in the Bible, and is more accurately defined as an attempt to find a "loophole" in the moral guidelines for what is described in the Bible as the sin of adultery and polygamy.

[Disciple 0]

Concerning the first half of your long-winded post, ligonier and I already went over that. Concerning the kings, interesting point indeed. But you never addressed my point, why were certain sins considered agregious and others not punished. Even before the time of the kings, why was Israel honoured as he was, even though he had two physical wives?

[seeking_truth_1 0]

From Rudometkin, as written in the Spirit and Life book:

 

For this you will be rewarded by me with eternal life (be given eternal life by Rudometkin), and the Kingdom of peace of our Lord Jesus Christ, upon this good land for a thousand years. (Verse 5)

 

Moreover, you will truly be given all of this from me, if only you justly fulfill my will (be given eternal life from Rudometkin if you fulfill the will of Rudometkin) in the Spirit. (Verse 6)

 

(Page 352, Book 6, Article 17, Verses 5-6)

 

 

 

From the Bible:

 

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe.

 

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

 

I give them eternal life (the Lord Jesus Christ gives eternal life), and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:25-30)

Wow

 

It's as clear as clear can be

 

Both mgr and Jesus make the exact same claims to provide eternal life

 

You cannot accept both when they both make exclusive offers

 

Choose whom you will serve this day because it CANNOT be both

 

But if you are unwilling to serve the LORD, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the LORD (Joshua 24:15 NLT) and NOT mgr

[ligonier 0]

Nevermind, my mistake.

Edited January 12, 2006 by ligonier

[coffee 0]

Dearest Disciple,

 

According to my understanding, the overwhelming majority of those who visit this forum site do not participate in the various discussions. In other words, as I understand it, the amount of readers far outnumber those who actually participate.

 

Keeping this in mind, I have tried to be very precise in my explanation that what I contribute on this forum is directed predominantly towards those very ones who are the silent "readers".

 

Whenever I choose to engage someone in a conversation or dialogue, I always try to address them at the very beginning of what I have to say, so that there is never any question when I am speaking to someone specifically.

 

In this case, I obviously was not speaking to you, nor did I even have you in mind to be the ultimate recipient of what I had to say, when I posted my comments. That is why there was no salutation. In other words, I was not "responding to you".

 

Regarding:

 

Concerning the first half of your long-winded post, ligonier and I already went over that.

 

Concerning the kings, interesting point indeed.

 

But you never addressed my point, why were certain sins considered agregious and others not punished.

 

Even before the time of the kings, why was Israel honoured as he was, even though he had two physical wives?

 

I am pretty sure that you are directing these comments towards me, but you never say.

 

From what I can tell, this thread was started by Ligonier to share certain findings that were written about Sokoloff, Rudometkin and the New Israel Jumper sect, by the Russian historian, Mel'nikov. From what I can tell, a portion of the context of this thread is about the polygamy and adultery that was practiced by Rudometkin, under the name of "spiritual wifery".

 

If the subject of polygamy among the patriarchs of the Old Testament is of interest to you, might I suggest that you start a new thread and explore it. As I remember, when it was discussed in one of the other forums, there was a lot of activity.

 

The term "spiritual marriage" is a Khlysty term, which is not found in the Bible. The same is true for the term "spiritual wife". Both terms, although not Scriptural, are found in the writings of Rudometkin, in the Spirit and Life book.

 

....we know that by what he wrote, Maxim Gavrilovich based everything on The Scriptures.  (Posted: Jan 10 2006, 07:52 A.M. - Did MGR Die....)

 

 

Disciple, I will be more than happy to answer the question(s) that you asked, if you truly desire to know, but before I do, you will need to explain the Biblical concept of "spiritual marriage", according to what is written in the Scriptures, specifically in the context of what Rudometkin practiced.

 

Could you tell us where in the Bible God differentiates between "normal" marriages, versus "spiritual" marriages? According to what is written in the Bible, especially in context of what the Lord Jesus Christ taught about the subject of "marriage", what is the difference between "normal" wives, versus "spiritual wives"?

 

The reason I ask is because of what you have stated so emphatically:

 

....Maxim Gavrilovich based everything on The Scriptures.

 

If you need the specific passages where in the Spirit and Life book Rudometkin has written about one of his "spiritual wives", with specific reference to his "spiritual marriage" with her, just ask, and I will provide them to you, in context.

 

Thank you. I wish you well, young man.

 

Coffee

[anonymous 0]

Concerning the first half of your long-winded post, ligonier and I already went over that. Concerning the kings, interesting point indeed. But you never addressed my point, why were certain sins considered agregious and others not punished. Even before the time of the kings, why was Israel honoured as he was, even though he had two physical wives?

 

The blessings bestowed upon Jacob/Israel had nothing to do with Jacob/Israel per se. The blessings had everything to do with the grace of YHWH, THE ONE WHO IS FAITHFUL AND TRUE, WHO made an agreement/covenant with Abraham and his descendants, which covenant included blessings of family, finance, land, and redemption.

 

Despite the patriarchs’ unfaithfulness to HIM, i.e., adultery/polygamy, unlike HIS creatures, THE LORD.......GOD.......YHWH has, does, and will remain FAITHFUL AND TRUE to HIS WORD/HIMSELF.......eternally/forever.......for this is HIS character, HIS nature.......this is WHO THE I AM IS.......FAITHFUL AND TRUE.

 

Simply put, although THE LORD GOD did not condone the patriarchs’ sin of adultery/polygamy, HE remained FAITHFUL AND TRUE TO HIS WORD/HIMSELF in keeping HIS agreement/covenant and promises to Abraham and his descendants.

 

GRACE AND TRUTH --- in action.

 

The question to you, disciple, is, if mgr “trusted in God’s Word from the beginning” as you stated:

 

He quoted the truth from The Scriptures because he trusted God's Word from the beginning.  (Anonymous Discussion Group - What Steadfast Said in a Different Thread)

 

Why would he preach and teach you, his faithful ones, that disobedience of THE LORD GOD’S seventh commandment found in GOD’S WORD, the same HOLY SCRIPTURES he quoted from, was by inspiration of the very GOD WHO decreed the seventh commandment?

 

What if your wife consented to your having two or more wives? What would constrain you from doing so --- what constrains you now?

[ligonier 0]

The "steadfast" and the "jumpers"

 

 

Editorial comments: Although the Khlysty were banished together with virtually every other sectarian group who also rejected and renounced the authority of the Orthodox Church in Russia (along with its claim of being “the” Church of Jesus Christ on earth), the other sectarians in Russia, including our own Christian Molokan founding forefathers, did not respect the Khlysty as a true Christian denomination/sectarian group because of their mystical and unBiblical teachings and immoral practices. Once the blending and mixing of the Khlysty with certain Molokans began to take place, however, there were suddenly two distinctively different and separate sectarians groups calling themselves “Molokans”….(1) the original True Spiritual Christian Molokans and (2) the “People of God”–Khlysty-Jumper-“New Israel”- Molokans.

It was at this time that our original Christian Molokan forefathers began to call themselves “Postoyannie”, or “Steadfast” Molokans, which was descriptive of their commitment to remain steadfast in their conviction that the Bible is the inerrant true Word of God and the only source of inspiration as the final authority for one’s faith in God.

 

58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain. (1Cor. 15)

23) provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. (Col.1)

 

This was in direct contrast to the teachings of the new Jumper (Khlysty) Molokans who believed that the revelation of “the spirit” took priority over the revelations of “the letter”, written in the Bible, because “…the letter kills but the spirit gives life…”.

Having originally separated from the Doukhabors, our Christian Molokan founding forefathers were very familiar with the various “manifestations of spirit” and, contrary to erroneous and distorted folklore, they did allow freedom during their worship services for the Biblical practice of “rejoicing before the Lord” (2 Samuel 6:14) and the “raising of holy hands” (1 Timothy 2:8). They also believed in the Biblical practice of “laying on hands” (1 Timothy 4:14) when giving blessings.

The issue which differentiates the Christian Molokans from the “New Israel” Jumper Molokans IS NOT “manifestation of Spirit”. Rather, it is the issue of acceptability of “new” revelation of spirit when the “revelation” adds to and/or contradicts the Bible.

[coffee 0]

.

 

After reading the suggestion that was made:

 

Seems that there are quite a few "pinned" topics. Seems to me that if you took a few of the old pinned posts that haven't had any activity in them since, say....2006 ?, and maybe created another category like "Molokan Religious History" or something appropriate like that, it would clean up the topic board. Seems to me the Faith section especially is a bit cluttered. I can understand that the topics/threads are important, but if no one has commented on one in 3 or 4 years, it might be time to do a little house-cleaning/straitening up.

 

Anyone else agree/disagree ?

 

 

I went back and read some of the "pinned" threads in the Faith section and was surprised to find how much I had forgotten about some of the discussions that had previously gone on, and how quickly time has flown by.

 

I am bringing this one to the top. I found it at the bottom of the "pinned" topics.

 

It is an excellent reminder of how the Rudometkinites and other apologists want to cover up and deny the historical truth about the Khlystical origin of the Jumper and Leaper sect, yet continue to insist that they are still remnants of the TRUE "Molokans", especially now, when we see the trend among the younger generation of Rudometkinites who have made it a point to add and include the name of "Christian" to their religious identity, while still retaining and including Rudometkin's heresies in the Spirit and Life book to be an integral part of their religious belief system.

 

Hopefully the readers will read this thread from the very top. It is most relevant.

 

.

[Disciple 0]

Rudometkin, however, does admit to the polygamous and adulterous Khlysty pracitce of having a "spiritual wife", with whom, according to other historical evidence, he fathered a "spirit child" (Book 4, Article 5, Verse 12).

Rudometkin appears to have continued to rule over his followers as their christ/czar-king, even after he has been sent away to prison (Book 4, Article 5, Verse 12).

 

The first quote is not correct, Looks like the first quote was duplicated from the second. Do you have the reference about the child?

[coffee 0]

 

Rudometkin, however, does admit to the polygamous and adulterous Khlysty pracitce of having a "spiritual wife", with whom, according to other historical evidence, he fathered a "spirit child" (Book 4, Article 5, Verse 12).

 

Rudometkin appears to have continued to rule over his followers as their christ/czar-king, even after he has been sent away to prison (Book 4, Article 5, Verse 12).

 

The first quote is not correct, Looks like the first quote was duplicated from the second. Do you have the reference about the child?

 

 

 

The passage that you are looking for is in Danny S h u b i n ' s English version, in both editions, where Rudometkin addresses his three sons by name, but specified "little Vasya" as being special, born "by the Spirit" to be "son of the king". This is found on Page 289, Book 4, Article 13, Introduction.

 

To be "born by the Spirit" is a Khlystical term that was used to describe those children who were born the offspring of a Khlysty "christ" and one of his "spiritual wives", the result of physical copulation that was done while "in the spirit", thereby producing a "spiritual child".

 

For Rudometkin to isolate "little Vasya" in this way, with special consideration, indicates that this was the case. Without any hospital records to verify who the mother was, and given the proven dishonesty of the Rudometkinites to shield away from others the truth about Rudometkin's sexual immorality and his Khlysty heritage, there is no way to prove it, but "little Vasya" was a half brother to the other two sons mentioned by Rudometkin. "Little Vasya's" mother was one of Rudometkin's "spiritual wives". The first two sons were the offspring of Rudometkin's lawfully wedded wife, Maria.

 

.

 

[steadfast 0]

Being born out of wedlock would make little Vasya illegitimate and delusional Maxim in violation of the tenth of his ten commandments and hell bound. How could Maxim be hell bound if he were anointed by God?

 

ILLEGITIMATE MATRIMONY IS UNPARDONABLE….Pg. 444.16-17 "Because today the Kingdom which is spiritual, and forgiving of all sin and ignorance, has risen. Except for the [forgivness of] blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and illegitimate matrimony. In them even you have strayed at times by the signs of the letter of delusion."

 

DISOBEDIENCE OF MAXIM'S TEN COMMANDMENTS IS UNPARDONABLE…..Pg. 444.21 And he who disobeys these ten commandments given by me in God surely is my enemy, and he will be banished by me immediately from Zion yonder, straight to Babylon,

 

LITTLE ILLEGITIMATE VASYA TAKES A SIDE TRIP…..Pg. 655.1 "After death, children, whose parents who do not live by the will of God, are brought by a pale horse into a swampy area and are transported from there into dark seclusion and remain there until the judgment of God." EGK article 26 v12

 

POMNENKI FOR VASYA…..Pg. 655.14 If their parents beseech God, they are lead into the light, and they walk about without restraint.

 

FIERCE SNAKES AND VICIOUS BEASTS FOR VASYA…..Pg. 655.16 Meanwhile, in front of them are fierce snakes and vicious beasts, giving vent to frightening roars.

 

Molokanism is not Christianity, "Come out from them and be separate"….SF

 

[Disciple 0]

....we know that by what he wrote, Maxim Gavrilovich based everything on The Scriptures. (Posted: Jan 10 2006, 07:52 A.M. - Did MGR Die....)

 

I no longer believe this.

[coffee 0]

.

 

 

....we know that by what he wrote, Maxim Gavrilovich based everything on The Scriptures. (Posted: Jan 10 2006, 07:52 A.M. - Did MGR Die....)

 

I no longer believe this.

 

 

Thank you for your honesty. It is admittedly much more difficult and brave of you to say so openly, given your family history, than for others such as me. My family was from the Davidisti, and Rudometkin was never revered by my parents and grandparents and great grandparents, above the status of someone who simply considered himself to be more important than he really was. Nor was the Spirit and Life book ever revered as a "holy" book in my family.

 

.

 

[lastinline 0]

....we know that by what he wrote, Maxim Gavrilovich based everything on The Scriptures. (Posted: Jan 10 2006, 07:52 A.M. - Did MGR Die....)

 

I no longer believe this.

 

Wonderful !!!

 

2 Corinthians 5: 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. NKJV

 

Rev 21: 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." NKJV

 

lastinline (& thanking GOD 4 HIS penetrating WORD)

[seeking_truth_1 0]

Awesome!

 

“Jesus replied, "You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being.”

(Matthew 16:17 NLT)

 

“12 And God has actually given us his Spirit (not the world’s spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.

13 When we tell you this, we do not use words of human wisdom. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths.

14 But people who aren’t Christians can’t understand these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means.”

(1Corinthians 2:12-14 NLT)

 

 

 

 

 

....we know that by what he wrote, Maxim Gavrilovich based everything on The Scriptures. (Posted: Jan 10 2006, 07:52 A.M. - Did MGR Die....)

 

I no longer believe this.

[steadfast 0]

FIERCE SNAKES AND VICIOUS BEASTS FOR VASYA…..Pg. 655.16 Meanwhile, in front of them are fierce snakes and vicious beasts, giving vent to frightening roars.

Sounds like some of Steven Spielbergs work.

 

Very creative of Mr. Rudometkin, who by the way, was, as Rasputin, a member of the "Christs/Khlysti", a religious sect in Russia that continues today in America, mostly California and Oregon. Though deeply fragmented, wearing spiritual goggles and guided by a broken compass, remnants can be found in Australia, Mexico and Uruguay, most will answer to the call of the New Israel spirit.

 

Try Google, Khlysti, their beliefs can be found in the Spirit and Life book......Molokanism is not Christianity…….SF

 

 

[Disciple 0]

Ligonier,

 

Do you have any more History to share with us?

[coffee 0]

.

 

Bringing this thread to the top, for those who might have either forgotten about it, or have never read it.

 

.